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Hiwaunis
26 August 2007, 05:17 PM
Om Shanti,
I see that Muslims pray in large groups several times a day. I admire their devotion? They appear so sincere. What I don't understand is how is it that a people that seem to love God so much can be so intolerable, hateful and violent? I know that all Muslims are not this way I am only talking about the large number that are violent. They make all look bad.

It seems that if the spirit of God dwells within then ones desire to hurt another human being would be minimized.

When it comes to intolerance and violence I guess it's not fair to single out any one religion.

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

saidevo
26 August 2007, 09:37 PM
The outlook and behaviour of the religious mass depends on the teachings of their religious leaders who are the people who interpret the religion's scriptures for the masses. The Muslim religious leaders are the most responsible, in my view, for the increasing violent and terrorist activities of some of their masses.

The Christian religious leaders are belligerent in their own way, using money and muscle power to covert other religious people and destroy their culture, in more sophisticated ways.

Leaders of religions that originated in India are by and large the most tolerent, advocating peace at all costs. When the Taliban terrorists in Afghanistan blasted the historic Buddha statues in stone, China could have invaded and captured Afghanistan, had the Buddhists been like the Muslims. This did not happen because of the ahimsa principle taught in Buddhism.

But such extreme tolerence often gives rise to situations of extreme harassment, such as that faced by the Hindus in their own country, India today, from the politicians, intellectuals, other religions and allied vested interests. Today when Hindu religious leaders take up a genuine cause such as the state efforts to demolish the Rama Sethu bridge, the media unashamedly calls them becoming more and more aggressive. And the same media and even the Indian PM are mum when Hindus are killed by other religious people, while at the same time crying hoarse when Hindus react.

By the bye, recently the NDTV website published an article about a Hindu golden temple coming up near Vellore, Tamilnadu, quoting this comment from a Christian professor and research scholar whose full name is Joe Arun:

''I find it obscene when there are millions of people hungry. This money could have been used for alleviate poverty,'' said Dr C J Arun, Executive Director, Institute of Dialogues with Culture and Religion (IDCR) Loyola College."

This fellow does not find it obscene that their Christian churches spend millions of dollars defending the immoral practices (especially pedophilia) of their priests or the wealthy and pompous paraphernalia flaunted by their Pope. I sent the Website my comments pointing out this, and it was published. You might also send your comments to this link:
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070023659

atanu
27 August 2007, 03:49 AM
Why are muslims so violent? I also wonder.

What kind of mentality must one have to be able to plant a bomb and enjoy the massacre from the sidelines? It is devilish. It is cowardice.

May wisdom dawn.

Madhavan
27 August 2007, 05:08 AM
Strong beleif without practical verification of any dogma, religion, philosophy, a scripture and one's own interpretation of it or his teacher - causes one to develop a feeling of superiority and the tendency to preach your views to others. The nature of this preaching can take the form of

1. Bashing the views of others.
2. Calling other's view as inferior to yours.
3. Indulging in name calling and other bad remarks.
4. Violent physical behaviour and attempting to force your views, and hating thosse who do not accept your views.
5. Terrorism.

Most people are harmless when know very little about their religion or the beleifs of their forefathers, but when they are trained in them, this feeling of pride manifests itself in so many ways, the most extreme form being terrorism. Every person has it in atleast in a small measure (atleast (2)).

It is an entirely different thing if a man realized something (not necessarily the absolute truth) and preached others, but without it, the above is the result.

Yaruki
27 August 2007, 07:31 AM
It has to do with their religious text and how the religious leaders interprit it.

satay
27 August 2007, 09:20 AM
Namaste,

I think that what we see as 'violence' is not violence at all from the prespective of those who commit these crimes. They are driven by the ideology that men are divided into god's people and satan's people or believers in their scripture (in this case koran) and non-believers (infidels). Saving the infidels even by bombing the **** out of them is not seen as violence. It is an offering to allah.

atanu
27 August 2007, 10:17 AM
Namaste,

I think that what we see as 'violence' is not violence at all from the prespective of those who commit these crimes. They are driven by the ideology that men are divided into god's people and satan's people or believers in their scripture (in this case koran) and non-believers (infidels). Saving the infidels even by bombing the **** out of them is not seen as violence. It is an offering to allah.


Namaste,

Some of them are definitely ideologically driven in misguided ways, such as suicide bombers etc.. But I think, most are just after easy money. Extreme imbalance -- mountains of oil cash in Gulf countries and abject penury on the other hand, aggravates the situtation, I think. Rajasic/Tamasic food adds to the fuel.

meez
27 August 2007, 11:51 AM
This is an interesting topic, and I certainly enjoy hearing everyones viewpoints.

In my opinion (and thats all it is, is an opinion), violence can't be classified and attached to a certain religion. People all over the world, regardless of their religion are intolerant, hateful, and violent (which I'm sure we all know). Sure, there are some that go to extreme lengths and cause massive casualties, but that is based on them as an individual, not their religion, even if their motives stem from their religious beliefs. That individual has made a choice to act in that way and thus are the only ones responsible for it.

Thanks for the posts my friends. Be well.

Agnideva
28 August 2007, 06:46 AM
Namaste Meez,

That individual has made a choice to act in that way and thus are the only ones responsible for it.
Yes, the individual has made the choice. But, many individuals are naive and gullible, and get easily indoctrinated into hateful ideologies preached to them by their leaders. Leaders who teach hate/violence and brainwash the followers into doing their bidding are to be blamed also.

OM Shanti,
A.

Ganeshprasad
28 August 2007, 07:13 AM
Pranam All

One only has to look at the way the movement has been spread. On the strength of the sword, says it all.
what is so amazing is, they greet each other, peace be upon you, yet all they dis is violence.

I guess when one who wants to change the whole world, in their only way of thinking, is froth with danger, that is why I am against any type of conversion.

Dharma is personal and voluntary, Krishna says in the end to Arjun, I have said all that need to said, now you do what ever that may please you.

Jai Shree Krishna

meez
28 August 2007, 09:04 AM
Namaste Meez,

Yes, the individual has made the choice. But, many individuals are naive and gullible, and get easily indoctrinated into hateful ideologies preached to them by their leaders. Leaders who teach hate/violence and brainwash the followers into doing their bidding are to be blamed also.

OM Shanti,
A.

Thanks for the reply! I completely agree with you my friend. There are certainly lots of outside influences and factors in this type of situation that can lead to such violence, especially when all someone has been taught their whole life is hatred for others not like them. The thing is though, thats not Islam thats teaching violence or even carrying it out, it's an individual or group of people, regardless of whether they use their religion as justification. In the end, it goes back to the individual to make the decision.

Thanks for taking your time to respond to my thoughts, I truly appreciate it. Be well.

yajvan
28 August 2007, 12:45 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam All

One only has to look at the way the movement has been spread. On the strength of the sword, says it all. what is so amazing is, they greet each other, peace be upon you, yet all they dis is violence.

I guess when one who wants to change the whole world, in their only way of thinking, is froth with danger, that is why I am against any type of conversion.

Dharma is personal and voluntary, Krishna says in the end to Arjun, I have said all that need to said, now you do what ever that may please you.

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasad,

I have not much participated in this Muslim conversation. Yet what you say is true. I am putting words in your mouth so please spit them out if they are not congruent with your thinking. You can tell a man's heart by their actions, in this case the sword; yet for some reason the rest of the world is expected to respect and forgive, maybe understand is a better word, when we see this bad behavior being advanced, again and again.

I do not understand this.... perhaps they do not either? I do not know. Yet the thinking is, they are doing the will of God. I do not know this God then. They say they will attain heaven from these actions - this heaven they speak of I can do without because if it takes killing innocent people [ children, mothers, fathers, brothers ] what good can come of this?

And even if one attains heaven , it is for ones merit. One's merit then gets exhausted, then back to earth you come. And what life then can you take on after causing grief, angst, and weeping? What life form would be appropriate for a being of this nature?

Now, what do I know ? I am just cosmic lint and I offer my opinions above. What do the wise say? I look to Vasishta and his conversation with Sri Ram.. He says, he who fights for an unrighteous monarch, who tortures people and mutilates their bodies, even if they die in battle he is a beast or criminal and goes to hell... and they who fight for a king who delights in harassing the people they go to hell.
So, for today a king = a leader, minister, president, religious leader and the like.

Where is this greatness of bringing unhappiness to ther family of man, by killing, by advancing ones realigious beliefs? This is the poster child of ignornace, or avidya. This is the progression and advancement of Kali yuga we have to tolerate.


dhayanavad

Ganeshprasad
29 August 2007, 06:13 AM
Pranam Yajvan


Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste Ganeshprasad,

I have not much participated in this Muslim conversation. Yet what you say is true. I am putting words in your mouth so please spit them out if they are not congruent with your thinking. You can tell a man's heart by their actions, in this case the sword; yet for some reason the rest of the world is expected to respect and forgive, maybe understand is a better word, when we see this bad behavior being advanced, again and again.

I do not understand this.... perhaps they do not either? I do not know. Yet the thinking is, they are doing the will of God. I do not know this God then. They say they will attain heaven from these actions - this heaven they speak of I can do without because if it takes killing innocent people [ children, mothers, fathers, brothers ] what good can come of this?

And even if one attains heaven , it is for ones merit. One's merit then gets exhausted, then back to earth you come. And what life then can you take on after causing grief, angst, and weeping? What life form would be appropriate for a being of this nature?

Now, what do I know ? I am just cosmic lint and I offer my opinions above. What do the wise say? I look to Vasishta and his conversation with Sri Ram.. He says, he who fights for an unrighteous monarch, who tortures people and mutilates their bodies, even if they die in battle he is a beast or criminal and goes to hell... and they who fight for a king who delights in harassing the people they go to hell.
So, for today a king = a leader, minister, president, religious leader and the like.

Where is this greatness of bringing unhappiness to ther family of man, by killing, by advancing ones realigious beliefs? This is the poster child of ignornace, or avidya. This is the progression and advancement of Kali yuga we have to tolerate.


dhayanavad

What you say is wise, it is for digestion not spitting, i agree with you, but why tolerate, the silent voices has to be heard to eradicate this violence.
in other word we have to speak up

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
29 August 2007, 09:23 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam Yajvan

What you say is wise, it is for digestion not spitting, i agree with you, but why tolerate, the silent voices has to be heard to eradicate this violence.
in other word we have to speak up ...Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste Ganeshprasad,

The pickle is when one speaks up to the ones with troubled minds, it causes outrage and more killings happen , yes? Look at the past year when issue was taken with the Muslim way ( the cartoon issue ): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4716762.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4740020.stm

A violent group of people I would say... their first response is conflagration, riot and mayhem vs what? Understanding the issue, educating the populous, defining why they feel provoked. They ( for me) alienate themselves from others.

This notion of tolerance I mentioned suggests the following: the act or capacity of enduring. That means, I do not condone ones bad ( really) bad behavior, yet will endure.

Now why endure ? Yes we need to talk about it, yet the crux of the issue is there is no reciprocity from the other side. Talking to these folks just fans the flames. Say one thing that is incongruent and they are ready to kill , to cause mischief. For this I do not have the patience, and others more equipped to handle situations like this need to be invoked.

I am sure there are good people in this group of Muslims, how could there not? Yet when one forms opinions by what one sees, I see violence, hate, and subjugation. If this is to win their heaven, I will prefer to stay on this earth. Yet all the things of yama & niyama that influnce the quality of a society seem not to be part of their monologue.

It would be good to see what others say of this. How does one even befriend people of this persuasion to have a meaningful conversation?

"In the classical Islamic view, to which many Muslims are beginning to return, the world and all mankind are divided into two: the House of Islam, where the Muslim law and faith prevail, and the rest, known as the House of Unbelief or the House of War, which it is the duty of Muslims ultimately to bring to Islam"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/533230/posts




thank you for your post.

Znanna
29 August 2007, 06:31 PM
Namaste,

Violence is in the eye of the beholder, perhaps?

To me, yes no question bombings etc are violent. But, to me, the uprooting of olive tree farms in Palestine and making land unsuitable for indigenous to live is violent in perhaps an even more insidious manner? Or, corrupting cultural values by hijacking symbols in society to produce a meme which suits some corporate objective - what about that? Pretty nasty, in my eyes, anyway.

Religions which perpetuate themselves as bureaucracies need to spread, like weeds, and take over the balance to their own avail, seems to me. IMO, they're all violent, just in different ways. Nature is violent. Things change. What moves to an extreme will adjust back to a balance perhaps by its own extremity~



Love,
ZN
/noncomformist

yajvan
29 August 2007, 08:25 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Violence is in the eye of the beholder, perhaps?

To me, yes no question bombings etc are violent. But, to me, the uprooting of olive tree farms in Palestine and making land unsuitable for indigenous to live is violent in perhaps an even more insidious manner? Or, corrupting cultural values by hijacking symbols in society to produce a meme which suits some corporate objective - what about that? Pretty nasty, in my eyes, anyway.

Religions which perpetuate themselves as bureaucracies need to spread, like weeds, and take over the balance to their own avail, seems to me. IMO, they're all violent, just in different ways. Nature is violent. Things change. What moves to an extreme will adjust back to a balance perhaps by its own extremity~

Namaste Z,

There is one slight difference in what is being presented. Violence is the means here, the method - Storms are violent , nature is violent.
Yet men and women have a choice - and the choice of violence to bring unhappiness to the family of man is neanderthal thinking and behaving i.e. tamasic. To use violence in the name of God , to get ones way and no other is small small thinking.

With regard to olive trees, corp greed and agendas... yes I see your point.
Now we are just comparing how dark one ignorance is vs. another. Yet for Muslims as I understand it, [ with the deeply seated fundamentalists] it is the Islamic way, then every one elses, and every one elses is incongruent and unacceptable to them. With companies there is negotiation. Is it the best possible sattvic environment - nope, but there is dialog and an opportunity for change.

When a olive tree is uprooted, sure there is a loss. Yet for every olive grown a whole other tree lives in each one, if one chooses to plant it in another area. When a muslim cuts off anothers head , thinking they are inferior - where does that person get re-grown?

The highest virtue on this earth is sparing another beings life - so says the wisdom of the Mahabharata (Adi Parva)

saidevo
29 August 2007, 08:30 PM
Namaste Yajvan.



Now why endure ? Yes we need to talk about it, yet the crux of the issue is there is no reciprocity from the other side. Talking to these folks just fans the flames.


Would this not be escapism? Should we not as seekers of Truth empathize with the innconent victims that includes Muslims? It is surely arrogance, escapism and callousness on the part of the government to just make sympathetic and empty statements taking no preventive action, as the Indian Government does. The terrorists must be sent the message that they will be hunted down individually and punished for this gruesome misdeeds. The US might be wrong in invading Iraq after the 9/11 attack but it did send a message to the terrorists that they will be tracked down (though Osama still looms large).



Yet all the things of yama & niyama that influnce the quality of a society seem not to be part of their monologue.


This is a good point. The very act of a Muslim bending on his knees for prayer is a kind of varjrAsana (as Sarabhanga pointed out), yet Yoga is anathema to the Islamic clergy. Besides, a religious society is fostered by the satvic tales about its sAdhus, their teachings and their devotees' experiences. These are perhaps as important as the scriptures of the religion. Do the Muslims have such wisdom tales taught to their children and youth? Muslims would do well to read and teach about its mystic saints.

Perhaps, as you have pointed out, the major constraint for the Muslims is that they can't go beyond their Quran and Hadith and return to their views of two worlds, but then that perspective suited the time of Mohammad. When Don't Muslims use all the gadgets and facilities of modern technology for their peaceful and violent living, though they are un-Islamic? If they strictly followed the scriptures, they should only use the horse and the sword for their violent misdeeds! When they change and become modern for such activities, why should not they change for peaceful co-existence with the followers of other faiths?

yajvan
29 August 2007, 09:08 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan.



Would this not be escapism? Should we not as seekers of Truth empathize with the innconent victims that includes Muslims? It is surely arrogance, escapism and callousness on the part of the government to just make sympathetic and empty statements taking no preventive action, as the Indian Government does. The terrorists must be sent the message that they will be hunted down individually and punished for this gruesome misdeeds. The US might be wrong in invading Iraq after the 9/11 attack but it did send a message to the terrorists that they will be tracked down (though Osama still looms large).



This is a good point. The very act of a Muslim bending on his knees for prayer is a kind of varjrAsana (as Sarabhanga pointed out), yet Yoga is anathema to the Islamic clergy. Besides, a religious society is fostered by the satvic tales about its sAdhus, their teachings and their devotees' experiences. These are perhaps as important as the scriptures of the religion. Do the Muslims have such wisdom tales taught to their children and youth? Muslims would do well to read and teach about its mystic saints.

Perhaps, as you have pointed out, the major constraint for the Muslims is that they can't go beyond their Quran and Hadith and return to their views of two worlds, but then that perspective suited the time of Mohammad. When Don't Muslims use all the gadgets and facilities of modern technology for their peaceful and violent living, though they are un-Islamic? If they strictly followed the scriptures, they should only use the horse and the sword for their violent misdeeds! When they change and become modern for such activities, why should not they change for peaceful co-existence with the followers of other faiths?

Namaste Saidevo,
very good points... I do not have the answers but watch these behaviors every day on tv and the news papers.

The biggest question is the one you posed: why should not they change for peaceful co-existence with the followers of other faiths?

And they bring grief on thier own people - the sunni hate the shia and vice versa. They hardly tolerate themselves.

I do not have any of the answers; I just scratch my head and wonder how this will unfold. It only increases in intensity. One then cannot change these people from the outside i.e. other societies, because their values drive their behavior. And how will a Hindu or Christian or Buddhist change thier values if they believe you are the problem?

So, one can only protect ones society from these behaviors until an epiphany occurs and a religious leader can install values of balance, trust and common ground in their value system.


pranams,

Hiwaunis
29 August 2007, 10:49 PM
Om Shanti,
When we see Muslims praying (and it is my understanding that they do this several times a day) aren't they praying for enlightenment? Eventually they will become enlightened and challenge their leaders.

It just seems to me that the power of prayer will prevail.

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

saidevo
30 August 2007, 06:37 AM
Namaste.

1. The print edition of today's New Indian Express newspaper on page 9 features a photograph of the former president of India APJ Abdul Kalam offering a 'jalabhishek' at Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan in Ahmedabad (on Wednesday). How many Muslim clerics (even the most moderate among them) would be ready to emulate his example? How many of them would exhort the Muslim population for such peaceful interaction (though a number of Muslim people do participate and interact in Hindu festivals, not because of, but in spite of their clergy)?

2. Even though a brahmin, I buy our home puja articles from a shop dedicated to this kind of service and run by a Muslim family in our locality. The other day I was surprised (and glad) to note that even our purohit buys his kusa grass and holy threads from this shop! The middle-aged father and the team of his sons and others in the shop are very courteous and highly knowledgeable about Hindu rituals and customs. You get almost everything related to all sorts of Hindu rites in this shop, right from cowdung cakes to Hindu almanacs and puja booklets.

This shopper's family fortunately has not been issued a fatwa by their clergy. This is perhaps an example that the public are willing to change and co-exist if only the leaders take right, peaceful initiatives.

3. Even among the Muslim public there is a double standard: the poor are forced to wear purdah and observe other traditional customs, while the rich go scot free and sport modern dress, goggles and gadgets. Take the Bollywood and Kolywood (Tamil) cine field for example. Many leading actors and actresses are Muslims: Sharukh Khan, Amir Khan, and so on. They sport Hindu religious symbols on their forehead, make merry in the Holy festival singing and dancing--generally looking a 21st century gaga youth with all his/her vices in every bit, unlike their brainwashed, Madrasi-educated terrorist youths.

4. I wonder what a common Muslim prays for during their prayer sessions. What does a Muslim actually ask of his/her God in a prayer session? This is where I think Hinduism is comprehensive: depending on your level and the situation you can pray for your personal, familial, societal and other wordly needs and welfare until you are ready to seek guidance for Self-Realization.

yathA netA tatha prajA - As the leader, so the subject - seems to be the primary reason for the Islamic propensity towards violence and dominance. Should we extend this proverb to yathA grantha tathA netA - As the scriptures, so the leaders?

yajvan
30 August 2007, 08:32 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste.

yathA netA tatha prajA - As the leader, so the subject - seems to be the primary reason for the Islamic propensity towards violence and dominance. Should we extend this proverb to yathA grantha tathA netA - As the scriptures, so the leaders?

Namste Saidevo,

you speak wisely as does Hiwaunis.
It is the leadership that makes a difference. This is always the case when we look to history. Yet, it is the people first that have the idea, then the leaders pick up on the populus.

IN the final analysis, it goes back to the collective consciousness of the people. What would happen if , in the collective consciousness of the Muslims they came to the realization that terror and killing does not advance their cause and brings sin - that it is not worthy of their actions.

So the leaders would have their rebel-rousing cause to action and mischief and the rank-and-file say no thank you, not today. Leaders are only so by the people that make them - this is the key ingredient . The values of the collective whole change who is in power.

And a key principle - success in action is born of sattva , it is not the means. That means [to me] the infusion of sattva brings balance and success. It is not about acting 'good' that success unfolds. So , more sattva infusion. Does this come from prayer, or yajya for this to occur?

For this some patience is needed, and in the interim, a society needs to protect the community from bad adharmic behaviors.

pranams and thank you for your posts, very good conversation.

saidevo
30 August 2007, 09:10 AM
Namaste Yajvan.



It is the leadership that makes a difference. This is always the case when we look to history. Yet, it is the people first that have the idea, then the leaders pick up on the populus.


I don't really think that it is the people who first have the idea. Everyone, irrespective of religious belief or non-belief, has a guru, starting from the mother. The leadership changes from mother, father, teacher, friends, wife, clergy and others as a child grows.

It is really astonishing as to why most humans do not exercise their indiviual thinking in matters relating to the society, religion and nation. If they do we won't be having this many cine stars, sports stars, political heros and perhaps this many religious gurus. Ideation is easily influenced from outside than from the inside. It is this external influence on ideation that perhaps adds to our karmas and shapes the world we live in.



IN the final analysis, it goes back to the collective consciousness of the people. What would happen if , in the collective consciousness of the Muslims they came to the realization that terror and killing does not advance their cause and brings sin - that it is not worthy of their actions.

So the leaders would have their rebel-rousing cause to action and mischief and the rank-and-file say no thank you, not today. Leaders are only so by the people that make them - this is the key ingredient . The values of the collective whole change who is in power.


I think I read that Francois Gautier has this idea that Islam will slowly phase out in future as Muslims silently switch over to other religions, scared and ashamed of the violence in their own religion.

First the collective consciousness (public opinion in wordly view) has to shape up, and then act either by rebelling or by deserting. All the while, however, the consciousness is doctored and sullied by the leaders.



And a key principle - success in action is born of sattva , it is not the means. That means [to me] the infusion of sattva brings balance and success. It is not back acting 'good' that success unfolds. So, more sattva infusion. Does this come from prayer, or yajya for this to occur?

For this some patience is needed, and in the interim, a society needs to protect the community from bad adharmic behaviors.


As I said earlier, I don't know how 'satvic' is the Islamic prayer within the framework of its perceived scriptural concepts. And the 'yajya' they are exhorted to practice is to give up their very life for the 'noble cause' of establishing the kingdom of Allah throughout the world.

If you think it over, it just requires one Muslim religious leader to set an example of peaceful co-existence and mutual amity. Initially there will be a fatwa on him. But then once the seed is sown, it is more than unlikely that it will sprout even in the bloody soils of Islamic agression.

Hiwaunis
30 August 2007, 12:23 PM
Om Shanti Saidevo,
That is a great point you mentioned about doing business with Muslims. Here in Texas many Muslims have businesses. I remember doing business with a Muslim once before (at that time I didn't know he was a Muslim) and thought he was one of the nastiest Indians I'd ever met.

Later, I happened to be eating a restaurant that he owned. Not knowing that he was a Muslim I asked him for directions to the Hindu temple. I think I insulted him. That's when he told me (in a rough way) he was a Muslim. I expected this kind of behavior from him so I changed the subject. I asked him how is restaurant was doing and all of a sudden he was very nice to me. He even invited me to visit the temple where he worships. Of course I never went because I am afraid of him. I never ate at his restaurant again either.

I said all of that to say that maybe business, commerece and ones own comfort is the key to eliminating all the violence. We really do need each other.

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

yajvan
30 August 2007, 02:08 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Om Shanti Saidevo,
I asked him for directions to the Hindu temple.
Hiwaunis

Namaste Hiwaunis,
There is a temple in Pearland, TX I frequented on a regular basis...
I lived in Houston for some time, then in Austin.

http://www.meenakshi.org/index.php
I hope perhaps you are speaking of Meenakshi Mandir?

pranams,

Hiwaunis
30 August 2007, 09:26 PM
Om Shanti Yajvan,
Thank you for letting me know of the temple in Pearland, Tx. I will visit it one day soon.

I was actually looking for the Hindu Temple in San Antonio, Tx. I just went across the street to the India Store and got directions.

Thank you for telling me about the one in Pearland. It looks beautiful judging by the pictures on the website.

Namaste,
Hiwaunis

saidevo
31 August 2007, 08:28 AM
Here is an analysis on why the Muslims are war mongers and how to deal with the militant faith.



Islam’s Weakness
Moorthy Muthuswamy, June 2003

There is a correlation between Islamic extremists’ war with the civilized world and Muslim majority nations’ backwardness. The trillion-dollar question of the new century: what weaknesses in Islamic extremism can the civilization exploit to emerge victorious?

Islam in Early India

It is pertinent to review here how Buddhism was vanquished in India. When Muslim conquerors invaded India many hundred years ago, they found Buddhism taking root mostly in cities, -- close to the centers of power. Like Islam, it too was institutionalized with its monasteries and monks. Muslim swords took a heavy toll of monk's heads. With its power structure gone, so was Buddhism, to the most part.

Hinduism survived this period because there was very little institutionalization and because, there were too many Hindus scattered through a wide area. Back then, as the Muslim ruling class realized, it made no economic sense to kill most Hindus, -- with Hindus providing a cheap and copious labor for a few Muslim ruling elite. Nevertheless, the Muslim invaders still managed to kill many millions of infidels Hindus and convert many more. As the Muslim population increased, there was no need for Hindus or other non-Muslims. Most were either killed or expelled. This is what we have seen in every Muslim majority area of South Asia, namely, -- Pakistan, Kashmir valley, or now, in Bangladesh.

Structure and Outlook of Islam

Islam is a highly institutionalized religion, with maulvis or mullahs -- the Islamic clergy, holding control of Muslim masses. Typically, there is a mosque manned by a clergy in every nook and corner of population centers. Most adult males at least attend the Friday sermon.

The mullahs themselves graduate from religious seminaries. They get virtually no modern education. Their education revolves around the Koran, the Hadiths and a glorified history of infidel conquest (jihad) by Muslims, since the days of Prophet Mohammed.

The only rigid interpretation accepted by almost all Muslims is one in which the Koran is the word of God; most, if not all, useful knowledge is in the Koran.

This interpretation has several consequences: Muslims are less likely to be open to modern knowledge and the clergy, due to their command of the Koran, are the only people qualified interpret it and hence guide Muslim masses.

Conclusion: Medieval Islamic clerics rule Muslim masses. Since, according to most clergy, there is no new knowledge to be acquired, they channel the energy and attention of Muslim masses into worldwide jihad – the unfinished chapter of infidel conquest started by Prophet Mohammed. The focus of sermon in mosques, in one way or the other, is connected with jihad. Thus, mosques have become centers of warfare waged on infidels and mullahs, the generals of the new war imposed on civilization.

Islamic Civilization Stands Out

I am going to discuss in detail here how Islam as an ideology has performed in the recent times. Most clerics want to bring Muslims the life style that existed during the time of Prophet Mohammed. Hence, progress is not considered among the desired by Islamic clergy. Muslims, to the most part, have not progressed. Progress requires, figuring out new ways of doing things and seeking out new knowledge. Also, such an approach contradicts the presumption of the Koran being the dominant source of all useful knowledge – making it unacceptable to most Muslim clergies. This has made Islamic civilization extraordinarily non-performing. The evidence is there for all to see, in the from a lack of scientific, manufacturing, art outputs. Except for oil, the contemporary Islamic civilization, to the most part, has become incapable to generating wealth. With a rapidly growing population brought on by modern medicine, Islamic civilization is becoming ever poorer.

Muslim populations, deprived of joy, innovation, knowledge, and fun, have their energies now channeled into never ending conflict with civilization in the form of jihad.
...

If one person can become evil, so can vast majority of people from a community. All available evidence, as discussed in this previous publication, points to a majority of South Asian Muslims having evil designs over non-Muslims, -- thanks to the ideology. The South Asian Muslim community’s outlook towards non-Muslims resembles that of a "Smallpox Civilization" (New Ideas for a New War).
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How could such an ideology, incapable of generating wealth, but mostly hatred, survive this long? Even in places it is surviving, it is doing so on the basis of wealth extracted from mother earth in the form of oil. In most other places, Islamic societies are disintegrating under the grip of the repressive Islamic ideology.

In India, with a long history of Islam, there exists no version of Islam that is progressive (reference: http://www.saag.org/papers6/paper599.html).
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Future of Islam

I think, in the next stage of the war on terror, western civilization led by America will work toward discrediting Islamic ideology, similar to the strategy they used in their successful defeat of Soviet communist ideology.

This, coupled with the ongoing military defeats of Islamic extremists will start an exodus from Islam, especially, in western countries. This will create a number of opportunities for many civilized nations to liberate their Muslim populations from Islamic ideology.

Options for India

I am going to focus here on specific steps India could take to liberate its populations from Islamic ideology. India is a unique case in the sense that it has already been once been divided in the name of Islam, portions of its ancient lands permanently lost, and is now being devastated systematically by jihad. It is a prime target country, being at the boundary of where the civilization ends and Islamic fascism begins.
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Fifty years of hands off and sometimes, even appeasing policy by various Indian governments has seen the Indian Muslim population only continue to sink, grow, and radicalize. As noted before, with no version of reformed Indian Islam to be found, the necessary approach should be toward total liberation. This is also among the best ways of bringing intellectual and religious freedom to Muslim masses.

The developed western countries have the ability to implement meaningful strategies. But India with a history of poor governing must take on a different approach toward liberating Muslims. I had discussed in my previous publication (Beyond Fatal Democracy), the kind of leadership and mode of governing that is most appropriate to solve this problem. With Hinduism being weakly institutionalized, and obviously unable to stop slaughter of Hindus, the future of Hindu majority India lies in getting a capable and visionary leader as soon as possible.

The key is to destroy the power structure of Islam permanently, -- its seminaries, and the buildings that form the basis for indoctrination, and liquidate violent and unrepentant Islamic extremists, by deploying the Religious Freedom Force (New Ideas for a New War). This power structure, Islam’s greatest strength is also its greatest weakness (like Buddhism in early India – first section). Without the power structure, I predict, more than 95% of the ability of Muslim extremists to launch a counter offensive is gone. Given the total domination of Islamic fascism, to achieve success, Muslims must not be allowed to organize themselves in any form. With that, Indian Muslim masses, left repressed and made poor, uneducated, and unorganized by the Islamic ideology, are now ready for liberation. I contend that most Islamic insurgencies have not been tamed because nothing has been done to weaken or neutralize Islam’s power structure.
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In the mean time, India needs to be honest in its representation of Islam – no more undeserving glorification of Islam! Bollywood must be made to portray the real Islam and be rid of its Muslim extremist elements, if need be. The decisive Tinnamen Square crack down by the Chinese government in 1991 brought condemnation from the outside world. But it also sustained stability and convinced investors to pour more money into China. Lesson learnt: India has to do whatever it takes to defeat jihad permanently.

Vision for the Rest of South Asia and Beyond

Pakistan has become the fountainhead of worldwide Islamic terrorism. Musharraf’s support for "self-determination" of Muslims in Kashmir, but ignoring the connected issue of non-Muslim ethnic cleansing is an indication that he is really a self-centered pan-Islamist – wanting to achieve the glory of his kind at the expense of others. Thus, Musharraf is part and parcel of the problem and not the solution, as some people in America seem to believe.

Not only in South Asia, there exist little evidence of a reformed version of Islam in practice anywhere. Those who seek to reform Islam as a way of winning the war on terror, in the long run, are staring at an unknown destiny. However, liberation of Muslims to other progressive faiths is one of surer destiny, -- that of peace and progress.

If the US wants to make Iraq a democratic country, perhaps, Iraq needs to become a Christian majority nation. Palestinians must be made to embrace Judaism for them to progress and for a Jewish civilization to thrive deservedly in the region. In South Asia, Pakistan and Bangladesh must be made to embrace Hinduism, the religion of their ancestors, and the underlying culture and language.

Source: http://www.saveindia.com/islams_weakness.htm

yajvan
31 August 2007, 08:58 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Here is an analysis on why the Muslims are war mongers and how to deal with the militant faith.


Namaste saidevo,
A very interesting read...
Out of all that was written a key theme comes out:
The key is to destroy the power structure of Islam permanently, -- its seminaries, and the buildings that form the basis for indoctrination, and liquidate violent and unrepentant Islamic extremists, by deploying the Religious Freedom Force

"Clinically" this will work - yet I believe this will also rally the Muslims over the world and bring more fighting and grief. As I see it, IMHO this strategy is age old - that is, the total destruction of the opponent and then restructure. Is it effective? It worked for Japan and Germany.
Yet in that case the 'enemy' was defined, wore uniforms and could be identified, grouped, etc.

I think this is not the case with Muslim community... many locations, many states and countries. Bottom line: How would this not cause death and destruction to more then just the warriors and soldiers?

We're looking to surgically remove a diseased part of the patient and end up cutting off all the arms, legs, heart and health in the process.

There is got to be a better way - there must... I am not a proponent of this method, yet understand the orientation submitted.

I believe the answer is in 'overwhelming them with sattva', so much so , that they cannot entertain negative thoughts. Can we do this today? nope. My thoughts and that of others is a strong society based upon higher levels of consciousness that infuse pure being into the total collective consciousness of society. As if one was in the constant darshan of the rishi's and muni's, established in purity. Negativity does not have a chance to rise.

Can't be done! - Not so, this was the method of previous less darker yugas. Can it happen tomorrow? Nope. Can it happen in 10 years? Perhaps. Where does it start? One person at a time. But where! Where! Welcome to HDF , - to start the conversation of higher levels of Being. To talk with others to inspire them to unfolding their full potential. This sattva is infectious.

Success is born of sattva, it is not the means.





pranams,

Nuno Matos
31 August 2007, 09:04 AM
Namaste Yajvan

" Success is born of sattva, it is not the means"


Om Namah Shivaya!

saidevo
31 August 2007, 10:36 AM
Namaste Yajvan and others.

I have presented Dr.Moorthy Muthuswamy's analysis for discussion purposes. I don't subscribe to his idea of permanent destruction of Islamic power structures, which should however be contained by the secular governments where Muslims are not in majority and by diplomatic pressure and negotiations by the US and other world governments in the case of totally Islamic states.

All said and done, history presents an indelible fact: if the Muslim population crosses 50% or otherwise becomes critically powerful in a country, the first thing they do is to seek out and destroy the religion and culture of non-believers. This has started happening in India in some villages where the Muslims are in majority: Hindus are denied basic civic facilities, thier movements are curtailed and leaders assaulted and killed.

In a country where a murder case is foisted on a Sankaracharya to settle scores on personal, political and religious agendas against him, where the holy Rama Sethu is sought to be destroyed despite sane professional warnings, where the government does not protect the citizens in time against repeated Islamic terrorism (India has suffered the most among the world countries and as Francois Gautier says, the number of Hindus killed in Islamic invasions of India outnumber any other holocaust), where the prime minister of the country loses sleep over a Muslim being supected to be a terrorist by the Australian government but expresses only lip sympathy and empty rhetoric to the families of Hindus killed by Islamic terrorism, where could be the motivation for collective consciousness, only on the part of the suffering Hindus? The need of the hour in India is for the Hindus to assert themselves by choosing a government that would cater to the needs and rights of the majority Hindus and not deprive them at the cost of appeasing the minority.

If Islam is able to reform itself from within, it would be most desirous and welcome. For such reformation, the world is obliged to make them see reason by whatever methods they would understand.

yajvan
31 August 2007, 12:07 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan and others.

I have presented Dr.Moorthy Muthuswamy's analysis for discussion purposes. I don't subscribe to his idea of permanent destruction of Islamic power structures, which should however be contained by the secular governments where Muslims are not in majority and by diplomatic pressure and negotiations by the US and other world governments in the case of totally Islamic states.
...
If Islam is able to reform itself from within, it would be most desirous and welcome. For such reformation, the world is obliged to make them see reason by whatever methods they would understand.

Namaste Saidevo,

Yes I see your points and logic thereof... may they soon 'see reason'.

Znanna
31 August 2007, 08:25 PM
Namaste,

Is it too simple minded to call a Muslim 'brother' and mean it?

When it really comes down to it, we ARE all brother and sisters, the rest is just static, IMO.



Love,
ZN

Hiwaunis
01 September 2007, 01:16 PM
Namaste,

Is it too simple minded to call a Muslim 'brother' and mean it?

When it really comes down to it, we ARE all brother and sisters, the rest is just static, IMO.



Love,
ZN

Om Shanti All,
There is a part of me that truly feels sorry for my Muslim brothers and sisters. How horrible for the soul to be born in such a society. What karma will they in turn be responsible for? If all behavior is learned behavior how can one be held accountable for what one was taught as a child?

India is for the most part a non-violent country. Any fighting on their part will always be minimal. Mostly to protect themselves. But America is a different story. It is just a matter of time before Muslims step on America's toes and incur the wrath of "Raven". Then they will not only loose their religion but their oil as well. Now that I think about it the Muslims don't actually have to step on America's toes. They will just attack them (in the guise of some good cause) for their oil.

The thought of so many innocent people (our brothers and sisters) suffering is just horrifying.

Peace to all of Us,
Hiwaunis