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yajvan
02 September 2007, 01:42 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,

If one is new to Sanatana Dharma [Vaidika Dharma - the knowledge or Dharma of the Veda's or Arsa Dharma, the Dharma of the rishi's] there is much to read.

I liken it to walking into a library for the fist time and seeing all the books. Where does one start? Fiction ? Non-Fiction? The sciences? Perhaps it makes sense to layout the library so one can then pick and choose where one might want to investigate.

Lets do this in two posts so each one is reasonable in length. Lets lay out some of the Shastra's (or Sastra) for consideration… this post will not be exhaustive, but an outline that can assist you as a framework.

Six Key Shastras - lets start here. Are there more then these? Sure, but lets not boil the ocean!

Srutis
Smritis
Itihasas
Puranas
Agamas
DarsanasSruti
This word in general is considered 'that which is heard' and are considered the Vedas [ from vid or knowledge ]; sruti is revelation on part of the rishis. They the rishi's are known as mantra-drashta or seers (dris) of mantras.

We know there are 4 Vedas - the Rik, Yajur, Sama and Atharva veda.
Overall what does the vedas address? 3 areas of life (some say 2 and I will start with the 2) and ones spiritual development:
Karma Kanda or the action section - Actions of attainment, of yajyas, attaining prosperity here on earth or attaining heaven.
Jnana Kanda or the knowledge section - the conversion from ignorance to enlightenment.
Upasana kanda or the sadhana/worship/spiritual sections.

Each veda has various sections, they are:

Samhitia - these are the core mantras that are in the vedas and are hymns in praise to the devata. These samhitia are the hymns that have been cognized by the rishi's in their consciousness. That is one reason they are called sruti - as they are heard, 'seen' by the rishi's within their pure consciousness. So when you think of sruti, and heard - it is the spiritual hearing from within , some say within akashara or the Absolute.So sruti is revelation.

They have a specific meter (Chandas), author ( rishi some call kavi or poet in this case) and devata ( or the deva the mantra or hymn is addressed to). When people think of the vedas there attention typically go to the Samhitas, yet there are other sections also.

Brahmanas - this section of the veda outlines the method of performing yajya's or sacrifices ( Some call homam, havan, agnihomam, puja).
Arayankas - or forest books. Texts of philosophical views of the veda that assist one with the concepts offered. They are called the forest books, as it was the knowledge the sadhu took when retiring to the forest.
Upanishads - this body of knowledge contains the essence of the Vedas. Vidyas on the essence of the relationship between the sadhu and the Supreme. A I have found the Upanishads and the Aranakas are a bit co-mingled together. The Upanishads are called Vedanta or veda+anta , the end of the vedas or the crescendo.Auxiliary or extensions to the Vedas.
There is additional knowledge and extensions to the 4 Vedas outlined. These are grouped as the Upa-veda and the Vedangas.

Upa-vedas

Ayurveda - or the science of life/longevity or health
Dhanurveda - science of war/battle
Gandharva veda - science of music/harmony
Arthasastra - science of politics and policy
Sthapatya Veda called Vastu Vidya - from vastu or the place where people dwell - the science of structures, housing, buildings and the like ~ The use of and framing of akaskaVedangas
The angas or limbs of the Ved (Ved+angas). There are 6 limbs:

Siksha and Vyakarana - this work is associated with Panini-muni and deals with proper pronunciation. The Vyakarana deals with Sanskrit grammar and composition. Panini allows one to understand the samhita's of the ved.
Chandas - deals with meter or timing . Most notably in chants, one thinks of the sama veda. This is the work of Pingalacharaya.
Niruka - is the works of Yaksha muni and he offers the etymology and roots of Vedic/Sanskrit words.
Jyotish - this is the science of light; of astrology and astronomy and the works of Gargacharaya.
Kalpas - this is the method of rituals called the Kalpha sutras;parts are from the Rig , Sama Yajur ( both white and black), and Atharva Vedas. I do not have much information on this and is a place for discovery and additional reading for me.Smriti
The smriti's stand next in authority to the srutis. Smrti is that which is recalled. The smriti's are considered the Dharma sastras. Some would call theses the regulatory or law giving shastras for codes of conduct.

The most popular is Manu Smriti some call this the Laws of Manu or the Manava Dharma Sastra. There is also the Yajyavalkya Smriti and Parashara Smriti. These are considered the top 3 with an additional 15 more main smritis from Visnu to Vasishta to Atri and then to Saunka.

What I find of interest, the smriti are yuga-centric or cycle or era-centric. Certain laws and codes of conduct apply to various levels of society and people.

Manu Smriti - Sat Yuga [ dharma is in full blossom]
Yajyavalkya Smriti - Treta Yuga [ dharma is 3/4 in bloom]
Sankha and Likhita - Dvapara Yuga [ dharma is 1/2 in bloom]
Parashara Smriti - Kali [ dharma is 1/4 in bloom ]Next post we will do the following:

Itihasas - the suhit samhitas or friendly treaties
Puranas - belonging to ancient times ; also to pura or fullness; also a class of friendly treaties.
Agamas - that which has been handed down: 3 Groups - Vaishnava, saiva and sakta.
Darsanas - usually called shad (6) darsana or the 6 systems of Indian philosophy; 6 Views that work in concert to give a full 360° view of knowledge; theses are complimentary and competing philosophies. The 6 are outlined on this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7818&postcount=1What should one read first? I have some ideas as will others. Lets list a few out with the next post.

pranams,

yajvan
03 September 2007, 02:13 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste,

Continuing the conversation...

Itihasas - from iti+ha+asa or 'so it was' - another name for history ( from his+story) or that which is recalled, or smrti. These are also called suhit samhitas or friendly treaties i.e. easier reading as they are stories.


The most well known are The Ramayana by the sage Valmiki and the Mahabharata by Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa (Veda Vyasa). What is included in the Mahabharata is the Bhagavad Gita (the song of the Lord), a 700 verse , some say 701, conversation between Lord Krsna and Arjuna. It is considered the cream of the vedas. And the Mahabharata is called the 5th veda.
The Yoga Vasishta is another treaty of excellent stature. It is the conversation and instruction between the sage Vasistha to Sri Rama. The insights to what the universe is, is insightful. This book is excellent. The author though is debatable. No one I know can say for sure who the author is yet Valmilki is part of the initial conversations.
Next is Harivamsa - musch of this work is from two traditions, the panchalak sana or 5 marks of which is vansa or the "genealogy", and stories about the life of Krsna as a herdsman. The book also reviews Krishna's early life presenting him as a tribal hero. I am not familiar with this work and is on my reading list. This is another offering of Veda Vyasa.Puranas - belong to ancient times ; also to pura or fullness; A class of friendly treaties. That is, the profound truths found in the Upanishads and perhaps in Vedanta liturature overall is offered to the reader in a more compatable manner. It is said it is simulataniously pleasing to the reader And to the Lord, hense a upanasa.

There are 18 main Puranas and an additional 18 subsidiary Puranas called the Upa-Puranas. What is intersting to note the Puranas have 5 characteristics ( some call this pancha-lakshana): a history and story, cosmology with symbols and illistrative principles, creation, genealogy of kings and hence the race, and the manvantaras. The manvantara's define where we are in time e.g. yugas ;

see http://indiaheritage.org/rendez/article1.htm (http://indiaheritage.org/rendez/article1.htm) for the total concept.Who is the author of these treaties? None other then the prolific Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa ( Veda Vyasa). When one thinks of the Puranas, the Srimad Bhagavatam and Visnu Purana come to mind. This Srimad Bhagavatam considers the various avatara ( incarnations) of Visnu on this earth. There are 10 avatara that are recognized yet Srimad Bhagavatam calls out over 20 avatara that have decended to earth [Canto 1.3.4 to 1.3.25].


Yet there are many additional Puranas: Skanda Purana, Siva Purana, Linga Purana, Agni Purana, etc. If you divided the 18 up , 6 are Visnu oriented, and additional 6 are Siva oriented and an additional 6 are Brahma oriented.Agamas - that which has been handed down: 3 Groups - Vaishnava, Saiva and Sakta.
These books/treaties are theological works and considered practical manuals for upasana. In the agamas then you will find mantras, Tantric practices, yantras, etc. They address jnana or knowledge, yoga , kriya and charya.
Much is discussed on moksha, devotion (bhakati), meditation, temple building, image-making, etc.

The Vaishnava Agamas are of 4 kinds.
The Siva Agamas recognize 28.
Sakta Agamas are known as (the) Tantras. It is said there are 77 agamas of Sakta. Wonderful works that are the conversations between Siva and Parvati.What is on my reading list from these? Isvara Samhita, Ahibudhnya Samhita, Sanatkumara Samhita, Narada Pancharatra, Spanda Pradipika, and the Mahanirvana Tanta - they say these are the core workings and most popular readings.

Darsanas - usually called shad (6) dashara [sight/vision] or the 6 systems of Indian philosophy. I have outlined the six in this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...18&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7818&postcount=1) and I think this will meet the need for your review.


One can see why there is the Ocean of knowledge at ones disposal. Now where to start? If there is interest, we can make this a new post. And I ask for others for their recommendations.

What is difficult here is no one knows where one is starting their learning and reading from e.g. level of consciousness, undertanding. So there are some offers that will create a nice foundation and we can then go from there…again , I look to others for their recommendations on this matter.

...hope this was in some way helpful.

pranams

Znanna
03 September 2007, 03:40 PM
What is difficult here is no one knows where one is starting their learning and reading from e.g. level of consciousness, undertanding. So there are some offers that will create a nice foundation and we can then go from there…again , I look to others for their recommendations on this matter.



"You see what you want to see; you hear what you want to hear."

-the RockMan in Nilsson's "The Point" which was a record and TV special in 1971, about Oblio a round headed kid in a land where everything and everybody had a point, but him. I consider this one of the seminal influences on my world view.

:)

More generally speaking, it seems to me that we *get* what it is we expect to *get* when reading, studying, etc. So, I'd suggest that the same person, re-reading some text of years past would approach it from a different point of view than before. Thus, I think a random order of study is arguably acceptable, too.

Namaste,
ZN

Edit to add: Not to mention that in an ocean, when one dives in it's the same ocean no matter what shore characterizes one's approach!

yajvan
03 September 2007, 04:26 PM
-the RockMan in Nilsson's "The Point" which was a record and TV special in 1971, about Oblio a round headed kid in a land where everything and everybody had a point, but him. I consider this one of the seminal influences on my world view.
More generally speaking, it seems to me that we *get* what it is we expect to *get* when reading, studying, etc. So, I'd suggest that the same person, re-reading some text of years past would approach it from a different point of view than before. Thus, I think a random order of study is arguably acceptable, too.

Namaste,
ZN

Hello Znanna,
wondered if your name comes from zenana? I ran across this word as of late and thought of you. It's defined as a location - a part of a home where women are secluded; A term used some time back.

Any hoo... I know little about 'the point' ( maybe I have one on my head and don't know it http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon5.gif).

That said, you mention "I think a random order of study is arguably acceptable, too." - Perhaps acceptable, but if one would have given me instruction some 30 years back I would have taken a different approach to my reading road map.

The way I learn I think is not too different then others ( not sure on this). Yet for this Vedic knowledge, randomness of selected readings gets one into the weeds very quickly without establishing a foundation for understanding.
Let say one wishes to enter at the Rig Veda , samhita level. While a noble cause indeed, one will scratch their heads saying what is this sonnet/sukta telling me? If you care to I can give you some samples if you care to pick around at it.
So, perhaps this randomness may work for Itihasas , then yes I concur.

Look at the HDF conversation on turiya/turya - a very simple state of Being, yet we are perhaps 15 pages deep in this discussion. This is GOOD! as we unfold the fabric of consciousness. Yet some write me from HDF and are not certain of the conversation. This is Okay too. We are developing our understanding, this is the value of this forum.

That said, what does the wise say? [ For me] coming back to the wisdom of the rishis is of great value.
A Key sukta in the veda says the following:
Richo akshare parame vyoman yasmin deva adhi vishve nisheduh,
Yastanna veda kim richa karishyatiya it tad vidus ta ime samasate.
(Rk Veda, 1.164.39)

The Veda or rks, reside in the transcendental field or akshara, of the highest (parame) Being (vyoman) in which reside all the adhi vishve deva's (or impulses of creative intelligence, the laws of Nature), responsible for the whole manifest universe reside. He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him? Those who know this level of reality are established in evenness (samasate or rest contented) , in That ( Tat or Bhuma, fullness-wholeness of life)."

What does this say in short? Of what use is the ved, for he whom is not becoming established in the Absolute? Where will be the value of this great knowledge other then words... become established in the avyayam (undecaying), the atman, the SELF, sama or even-ness to reap the full value of the knowledge. My teacher just says - knowledge is structured in consciousness.

This is my orientation...if ones consciousness is not groomed, developed and expanded , then comprehension is not operating at maximum performance. So, many of the readings one engages in grooms this consciousness. Are there other things that cultures/grooms ? Sure ...meditation, devotion, expansion of awareness via the arts, the touch of the guru - shakti put, etc.

I can say from my personal experience, this is what happens when one reads the Upanishads from a muni that has translated the works from a spiritual orientation, of this there is no doubt in my mind.


Thank you for the opportunity to express some of my views, and thank you for your post.

pranams,

Znanna
03 September 2007, 05:55 PM
He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him?



"You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear."

Like I was saying!

No disrespect intended, but I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?

If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.


My name comes from "Z" as in the Zees, a crew of chaotes (mages), appended to I-nanna, as in Inanna, Queen of Heaven. I also like using ZN because it sort of looks like a rotational sigil. Although, your reference isn't too far from the mark, either! Ironically, a search on Znanna also will turn up a Russian pRon star, LOL.

So, obviously, I'm coming from a different place than "I want to be a Hindu" ... however, I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me as well as new and beautiful expressions of the Holy.



Namaste,
ZN

yajvan
03 September 2007, 06:24 PM
Hari OM
~~~~~

"You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear."

Like I was saying!

No disrespect intended, but I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?

If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.


My name comes from "Z" as in the Zees, a crew of chaotes (mages), appended to I-nanna, as in Inanna, Queen of Heaven. I also like using ZN because it sort of looks like a rotational sigil. Although, your reference isn't too far from the mark, either! Ironically, a search on Znanna also will turn up a Russian pRon star, LOL.

So, obviously, I'm coming from a different place than "I want to be a Hindu" ... however, I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me as well as new and beautiful expressions of the Holy.
Namaste,
ZN


Namaste ZN,
Yes, we have different opinions but I could not outline them...
Let me for the sake of getting to know each other better poke at few of these notions you mention, okay?

You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear.
Sure, I get this. but is does not suggest you comprehend what you want to comprehend. Let me give you an example - I want to comprehend string theory - that is the first thing that came to my mind typing, ok. I have asked probed, and pondered this 11 dimensional idea. Yet I do not not get it.
Let me give you a simpler notion. Yesterday my daughter showed me a game and how it works... It was not so complicated, yet I did not 'get it' yet wanted to . Do these conditions change ? Sure over time and the expansion of knowledge and or awareness to get it. But I did not get it, simply 'cause i wanted to ...
I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?
I am not sure of what you are communicating and will ask if you have the time to let me know the point.
If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.
Yes, I concur. The key word for me is 'ready'. Readiness can come from divine intervention, a new set of neurons firing, the 'ahhh ha' experience of the expansion of awareness or insight and it can come from formal learning... I see we are not one micron apart on this notion.
Yet that said, IMHO it does not suggest a random study of knowledge. Case in point. A child is interested in airplanes, spaceships, flights to Mars, all that cool stuff.
Put a book in front of him beyond his capacity to comprehend. Say a 5th grader looking a post grad astro-physics info for rocket propulsion. I will bet ya a dollar to a donut he will not be ready to 'get it' till he builds a base line of knowledge. He will enjoy the pictures, and that will bring him some joy - but being 'ready', IMHO means knowledge is structured in consciousness.
So , based upon that example - help me understand your opinion on this one point - what do you suggest will happen with the 5th grader here? [ standard issue 5th grader , no savants please http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]
I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me.
Yes, this is good. Note that my intent is not to constrain anyone on HDF on how to learn or study. My humble offer was to outline the library, and what is available. Never to keep one in the short story section or how to cook section.My thoughts here are not that your approach ideas or perspective is wrong, nor mine are better. Its all one of vision and ones orientation. I respect yours, as I do not have the same life experiences that you have.

Last - cool name and audit trial back to Z.


pranams,

Znanna
03 September 2007, 07:03 PM
Hari OM
~~~~~



Namaste ZN,
Yes, we have different opinions but I could not outline them...
Let me for the sake of getting to know each other better poke at few of these notions you mention, okay?

You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear.
Sure, I get this. but is does not suggest you comprehend what you want to comprehend. Let me give you an example - I want to comprehend string theory - that is the first thing that came to my mind typing, ok. I have asked probed, and pondered this 11 dimensional idea. Yet I do not not get it.
Let me give you a simpler notion. Yesterday my daughter showed me a game and how it works... It was not so complicated, yet I did not 'get it' yet wanted to . Do these conditions change ? Sure over time and the expansion of knowledge and or awareness to get it. But I did not get it, simply 'cause i wanted to ...I am of the opinion that comprehension is more a matter of acceptance than of analysis, but perhaps that is because I'm a girl. My process is nebulous versus a directed approach, in other words.

I understand string theory in terms of my experience of meditational practice, although I could parse the statistics if I had some time to kill - actually nonlinear statistics (fractal statistics) I have studied as offshoot to philosophy. I'm sure I view Sanskrit much differently than most Hindus, as to me it is a formulary of expression quite similar to math but describing phenomena of a different ilk.

And, not for nothing, but if you'd PLAYED that game with your daughter, I bet you'd have gotten it.


I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?
I am not sure of what you are communicating and will ask if you have the time to let me know the point.What I'm saying is that the Shakta hymns are probably the BEST specific sources for these things, to my eye ... yet some don't see forest for trees. JMO.


If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.
Yes, I concur. The key word for me is 'ready'. Readiness can come from divine intervention, a new set of neurons firing, the 'ahhh ha' experience of the expansion of awareness or insight and it can come from formal learning... I see we are not one micron apart on this notion.
Yet that said, IMHO it does not suggest a random study of knowledge. Case in point. A child is interested in airplanes, spaceships, flights to Mars, all that cool stuff.
Put a book in front of him beyond his capacity to comprehend. Say a 5th grader looking a post grad astro-physics info for rocket propulsion. I will bet ya a dollar to a donut he will not be ready to 'get it' till he builds a base line of knowledge. He will enjoy the pictures, and that will bring him some joy - but being 'ready', IMHO means knowledge is structured in consciousness.
So , based upon that example - help me understand your opinion on this one point - what do you suggest will happen with the 5th grader here? [ standard issue 5th grader , no savants please http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]If a 5th grader had expressed an interest in post grad astro-physics, he probably gets more out of those pictures than you give credit for~


I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me.
Yes, this is good. Note that my intent is not to constrain anyone on HDF on how to learn or study. My humble offer was to outline the library, and what is available. Never to keep one in the short story section or how to cook section.
My thoughts here are not that your approach ideas or perspective is wrong, nor mine are better. Its all one of vision and ones orientation. I respect yours, as I do not have the same life experiences that you have.

I don't think that defining a particular approach to study is appropriate, with the exception of the personal relationship with a Master. Additionally, I think that the process of understanding is unique to each person, and that no limits of interpretation should be made, within a sense of polite propriety.



Last - cool name and audit trial back to Z.

Thanks :)


pranams,


Namaste,
ZN

yajvan
03 September 2007, 09:01 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~




Namaste,

And, not for nothing, but if you'd PLAYED that game with your daughter, I bet you'd have gotten it.

I don't think that defining a particular approach to study is appropriate


ZN

Namste ZN,
This is the chicken and egg scenario - my daughter tried to explain the game so I could play! To my chagrin my pea brain could not wrap my understanding around the concept... I still tried, yet to no avail. Hence your advice, albeit warmly received, does not bear results... I did not get it by trying. I am a big fan of Show-tell-do yet in this case when it came to 'do' I didn't! - I will try again.

Defining a particular approach is inappropriate .... sure, but I dis-agree.
That said, one must consider youth learning, or pre-teen, young adult, adult , or seasoned adult. Even that said, this has not been my intent. Remember I am pointing to the Library - not pushing noses into a book http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[ fyi only - my orientation comes from designing , implementing and teaching courses in college and in corp. america - maybe I am blemished, eh? ]

It is up to the person to choose - this is always the case , even when a method of learning is offered e.g. Socratic, Collaborative, Cooperative, Problem based, Discovery based, etc. ones abilities, penchant to learn, skills and abilities, etc, need to be considered.

Thank you for the banter and voicing your beliefs and opinions - they are valuable.

pranams,

sarabhanga
04 September 2007, 12:39 AM
Namaste Yajvan and Znanna,

I can see value in a “random” approach, but one’s mind must always remain open. And with such an open mind, the apparently random search is soon found to be mysteriously “guided”. ;)

Despite the apparent diversity (just like the manifest universe), there is in truth only one topic being discussed ~ the brahman (the truth of all truths).

It is impossible to properly name or describe the one absolute transcendent Being ~ the one God of all monotheistic religion ~ but, from the dualistic perspective of the Creation, this One has always appeared as a veritable Twin.

Nothing can be spoken about the ultimate brahman (brahma or nara); but everything is spoken about his son (brahmA or nArAyaNa) who is himself twain and prone to multiplication ~ as brahmA-brAhmI, and then again as the triguNa, and then as nArAyaNa-nAra and nAra-nArI (etc.).

And all of the major “controversies” in the interpretation of dharma basically revolve around different perceptions of “the Twin” (variously known as yama, ashvinau, naranArAyaNa, vidyAvidya, etc.).

How many individuals in an identical conjoined twin? The answer will depend entirely on one’s individual perspective!

The thread on turya-turIya is entirely regarding the Twin, whose identity and nature is the ultimate subject (and object) of all spiritual discussion (and confusion). For some it has been a romp in the garden of eidenai, and for others perhaps more of a leap into the vortex (especially if Sanskrit is not understood).

In Greek, eidenai is the perfect infinitive of the root id (literally “to have seen”), and in this field of pure knowledge there is an eternal pair in a fertile tree (the tree of life). And at the very top of this tree there is one unreachable (and unbelievably sweet) fruit. The only one who would dare to consume that sweet poison must be its rightful possessor (i.e. the silent witness to the mortal feast ~ aditi or nirRti, who is only shiva) and She is the unborn Eve (recreated in man’s image by man himself).

I have repeatedly climbed to the top of this sacred tree, and held out the star at its peak ~ generally 5-pointed for brahma, and 6-pointed for brahmA (although odd numbers above and even numbers below is the rule) ~ and the “4-pointed” stars are the manifest riches that are already strewn all about. But still there are those who don’t get it!

There is much information on mythic relations packed into the turya-turIya thread, and especially in the various lines of equation that I have drawn. These are veritable sutras (fragments of the genetic code) for constructing and deconstructing the extended mythology and philosophy of yama (which is the basic theme of sanatana dharma).

If one still doesn’t get the point, or get how to get to the point, then it would perhaps be a good idea to read the whole thread again (with a good Sanskrit dictionary on hand).

As for where to start in reading the scriptures, well, that really depends on one’s own starting point and what it is that one is actually seeking! It is all there in the “ocean of wisdom”, and one can either follow the trail of scattered jewels, or head straight for the treasure trove ~ and the best advice for the true path can only come from one’s own Guru.

Atanu has rightly stressed the simple quest for the “I”, but for most it remains hidden.

The turya brahma, alone and advaita, eternally resounds only “am”.
The turIya brahmA, together with mAyA, at the moment of creation, says “I am”.
And the turIyAtIta brAhma, in samAdhi, says “I am brahman”.

The common threads are the turya, the brahman, and “am” (the first person singular of “be” ~ i.e. pure existence, without any name, and even without any sense of “I”).

The “I” is explicit in the “I am” of brahmA, although in the first person singular state (i.e. brahma) it is unknown but very strongly implied. And it is this grammatical implication of existence (the very idea or concept of being) that provides the inexplicable urge for creating and naming diversity.

“ I truly am ‘I am’ and ‘[ I ] am’ ”, and all would be wise to remember the immortal inspiration of this ultimate Truth.

The dualistic 6-star people have usually outgunned the monistic 5-star people on the material plane, but despite their devotion to God (i.e. brahmA) they generally have no idea that the highest 5-star God (brahma) even exists.

The followers of the Son of God (i.e. nArAyaNa) have indeed named the ancient Mother of God (the essential unborn matrix of divine conceptions ~ the brahmayoni) as Satan and expelled Her from Heaven! :eek: Thus, the apparent monism of Christianity is only a small fraction of the truly monistic Sanatana Dharma. And Islam is an example of 5-star (advaita) philosophy largely in the hands of 6-star (dvaita) apologists. And the “immortality” of all such disguised dualism will certainly fade, unless so-called Satan is restored to the God-head. ;)

Still none of this may make much sense to those who have been indoctrinated for generations with an idea of divinity that is only one quarter (or at best one half) of the total picture ~ and that is perhaps the greatest obstacle to understanding the discourse of Sanatana Dharma. :(

And the chicken and egg scenario is a perfect analogy for understanding the Twin! :)

I wish you all “a brace of partridge in a tree of pairs” !!

yajvan
04 September 2007, 09:37 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan and Znanna,

Still none of this may make much sense to those who have been indoctrinated for generations with an idea of divinity that is only one quarter (or at best one half) of the total picture ~ and that is perhaps the greatest obstacle to understanding the discourse of Sanatana Dharma.



Namaste sarabhanga (et.al)
as usual you add value.... the conclusion is of great import ( above)...
Many are gettting comfortable with the notion of the truth. We are even warned to avoid bringing up Brahman to those that are not ready for it. So a delicate subject for some, and a comforting subject for others.

This has been my most difficult point to communicate... we need to be caring and undersanding of others that are coming along. For others that are on the ride, enjoying the scenery, all is well and good. Yet many perhaps need a lay of the land.

So, if ZN is of the opinion randomness is best - it may be the best approach for her. Yet for others ( in mass) it may not. This is fine and I repsect her views.

This I think is the offer at HDF is how to throttle the conversations so there is benefit to all that are here to read, understand, ponder. And for some that only wish to window shop.

Our offers are not 'spandex' to have one size fit all. So, various conversations to help, assist, poke and ponder is ( for me) an offering we perhaps can consider. And this is based upon knowledge, reading, personal experiences, all have a say to expand ones horizons.

If one comes just to take, then it will be an empty forum. Flexibility and adaptability is a spiritual quality, minimizing rigid thinking and the like. This does not happen by chance, but by having dormant neurons fire!Expanding ones vision of possibilities. I found this to be accelerated by ones reading, thinking and experience...

Knowledge is for action and achievement, ultimately Fulfillment of the individual. So what one reads, ponders, acts on, experiences, is all part of the ride. How one does this e.g. sequentially or randomly is a matter of personal preference.

NET NET: If one does not know what to be random of, to be sequential in, where does one start? This is the genesis of this string. What does the field of reading look like to choose from? Yet from some curious reason we ended up in left filed on how one wishes to read, interesting but a personal preference.

IMHO Moksha is just a millisecond away when the right stimulus, the right environment is there to be offered to the sadhu that makes ' Aahh Haa !!' happen. What if its just one idea, one thought away? and that by His Grace is in that one book you have been itching to read, or the one you did not think even existed?

pranams,

Znanna
04 September 2007, 09:10 PM
Namaste,

I didn't mean to imply that randomness (or any particular approach) is "best" ... quite the contrary! Nothing is "best" for everyone; whatever your current point of view draws to you in understanding - this is where one must start.

Whatever works, whatever the book one picks up first ... that is what needs to be read. Everything conveys the Holy. The path is under one's feet, a map isn't necessary to find it, IMO :)



Love,
ZN

sarabhanga
04 September 2007, 09:52 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

Those who do not understand that there is only one ultimate Truth are shudra.

Brahman is the import of the Veda, and those who are “not ready for it” are either shudra or they have already been confused by their own partial knowledge. And that is why I mentioned that direction in chaos comes almost automatically to one who maintains an open mind.

As for where to start in reading the scriptures, well, that really depends on one’s starting point and what it is that one is actually seeking! It is all there in the “ocean of wisdom”, and one can either follow the trail of scattered jewels, or head straight for the treasure trove ~ and the best advice for the true path can only come from one’s own Guru.

My own approach has always been “random”, and from personal experience I can say that it seems to work. And with the addition of personal advice from one’s Gurus (who may be various throughout one’s life, but there should only be one at a time), this apparent “chaos” becomes more and more focused.

It seems to me that the masses are in dire need of a Guru! But following fragments of different paths simultaneously is like randomly inserting multiple cracked lenses into a telescope! The best view is obtained when just one perfect lens, or a perfectly matching set of lenses, is employed.

Most will have arrived at HDF in a random manner, and progression through the various sections and threads and individual posts within HDF will also likely be somewhat random.

Anyone reading this is most likely in Vishva (the world) and the normal waking state of Vaishvanara, and this has been amply described.

I am very flexible, but there are some fundamental points that (in my mind) cannot be altered.

Brahman exists.

Brahman is unborn and eternal.

Brahman is one, alone, but apparently twain (i.e. Yama).

There is nothing beyond Brahma (i.e. the Parabrahman or Brahmayoni).

Otherwise, your description of the whole body of scripture certainly sets an imposing field for personal research, and a “road map” would be handy!

But such a mapping, through levels of consciousness and viewed from multiple perspectives, is exactly what I have been attempting (in my own random way) to provide. ;)

sarabhanga
04 September 2007, 10:05 PM
1. The vaishvAnara consciousness ~ A

“Of this benevolent one who is the object of our invocation, there is an all-pervading middle brother, and a third brother who is well fed with oblations of ghee. Here I behold the Lord with seven sons.”

I = vaishvAnara = AjñA = sadyojAta = mahAdeva = maNipUra = rudra = aitareya

And yudhiSThira knows this!


2. The taijasa consciousness ~ U

“They yoke the seven to the one-wheeled chariot; and the single courser named Seven draws it. Three-naved is the wheel, sound and undecaying, whereon all these worlds of being are resting.”

II = taijasa = ajña = vAmadeva = bhairava = anAhata = IshAna = bRhadAraNyaka

And bhIma knows this!


3. The prAjña consciousness ~ M

“The seven who are mounted on the seven-wheeled chariot are the seven horses who draw it onward. Seven sisters ride in it together, in whom the names of the seven rays are treasured.”

III = turIyAtIta = prAjña = aghora = nandivaktra = vishuddha = sadAshiva = chAndogya

And arjuna knows this!


4. The turIya consciousness ~ AUM

“Who hath beheld him as he sprang to being, seen how the boneless one supports the bony? Where is the blood of earth, the life, the spirit? Who may approach the man who knows to ask it?”

IIII = turIya = prAjñA = tatpuruSa = umAvaktra = AjñA = shambhu = mANDUkya

And nakula knows this!


5. The turya consciousness ~ [M]

Only “namaHshivAya”.

V = turya = prajñA = IshAna = sadAshiva = sahasrAra = paramashiva = Isha

And sahadeva knows this!



What would your own Guru’s Guru have suggested?

In truth, moksha IS only one thought away!

yajvan
04 September 2007, 11:44 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I didn't mean to imply that randomness (or any particular approach) is "best" ... quite the contrary! Nothing is "best" for everyone; :)
Love,
ZN


Namaste ZN & sarabhanga

ZN, it is best for you, this randomess, ... this I understand and repsect.
Sarabhanga, we also concur Moksha is a thought away and for you perhaps randomness has served you well.

Yet for some reason we lost the spirit of this post...we got to the DNA level of knowledge vs. the total human experience of learning and what the offer can be for reading material. For this I must take responsibility and thank you for your posts and contributions.


What would my guru's guru say ?
you are the Infinite, you are the ocean, be the ocean where ever you may be.


pranams,

sarabhanga
05 September 2007, 01:10 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have not only suggested HOW to read, but also exactly WHAT to read!

ONE ~ vaishvAnara = aitareya (upaniSad)

TWO ~ taijasa = bRhadAraNyaka (upaniSad)

THREE ~ turIyAtIta = chAndogya (upaniSad)

FOUR ~ turIya = mANDUkya (upaniSad)

FIVE ~ turya = Isha (upaniSad)




One, two, three, four, five,
Once I caught a fish alive,
Six, seven, eight, nine, ten,
Then I let it go again.

Why did you let it go?
Because it bit my finger so.
Which finger did it bite?
This little finger on the right.



You are the Infinite; you are the ocean; be the ocean where ever you may be.

This is very good advice, but it does not suggest what books to read, in what sequence, in what frame of mind, for what result!

Every time I put a simple equation into a post, the actual words seem to be entirely ignored. Is there some fear of mathematical symbols? I just don't get it. :dunno:

Was this thread only intended as a long list of possible reading?

Regarding what and how to progress through the library, the suggestion of "as you like" or "follow your Guru's advice" were deemed insufficient for most, so I did my best to provide a defined course (indeed, a tried and true short-cut through the maze), but apparently the spirit of the thread has been lost!

That last post was my best effort ~ so if that was off track or uninspiring, then I have clearly missed the point and should perhaps give up on this internet discussion business. It uses up very much time, and seems to be mostly futile!

atanu
05 September 2007, 02:50 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste sarabhanga (et.al)
-------
This I think is the offer at HDF is how to throttle the conversations so there is benefit to all that are here to read, understand, ponder. And for some that only wish to window shop.

Our offers are not 'spandex' to have one size fit all. -----


Namaste Yajvan ji,

I do not think at all that a person or a group of persons have any chance of ever throttling anything.

But He or they may have ample chance to think (and boast) that they have 'throttled' or 'taken hold' or 'directed' some event to an excellent finish (This is most general tendency to which I am most prone, more than any other in this forum. This is not pointing to any individual).


i did not know where i wouldl be born. i did not know where i would study. i did not know which city i would go to. i did not know whom i would marry. i did not know as to whether i would have children. i did not know that there would be a HDFpur created by a knight in shining black armour, where i would participate in juicy gossip.

nothing i knew. How could i throttle anything? If any thought came up to motivate my actions, i did not know how/ whence those thoughts came up?

Vishnu has all the plans. And He implements all the plans. For the ignorant ego, depending on the situation, it may be a great proud reward/a shameful massive failure or it may be a great uncontrollable wilderness. Neither is true.

For me it has always been randomness, till I realised that Vishnu has the masterplan. I think that the ego can only pray and submit. That is the only true freedom.
-----------------------

Needless to say that the initial two posts are useful.


Om Namah Shivaya

Znanna
05 September 2007, 04:27 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have not only suggested HOW to read, but also exactly WHAT to read!

ONE ~ vaishvAnara = aitareya (upaniSad)

TWO ~ taijasa = bRhadAraNyaka (upaniSad)

THREE ~ turIyAtIta = chAndogya (upaniSad)

FOUR ~ turIya = mANDUkya (upaniSad)

FIVE ~ turya = Isha (upaniSad)




One, two, three, four, five,


Once I caught a fish alive,


Six, seven, eight, nine, ten,


Then I let it go again.



Why did you let it go?


Because it bit my finger so.


Which finger did it bite?


This little finger on the right.


You are the Infinite; you are the ocean; be the ocean where ever you may be.

This is very good advice, but it does not suggest what books to read, in what sequence, in what frame of mind, for what result!

Every time I put a simple equation into a post, the actual words seem to be entirely ignored. Is there some fear of mathematical symbols? I just don't get it. :dunno:

Was this thread only intended as a long list of possible reading?

Regarding what and how to progress through the library, the suggestion of "as you like" or "follow your Guru's advice" were deemed insufficient for most, so I did my best to provide a defined course (indeed, a tried and true short-cut through the maze), but apparently the spirit of the thread has been lost!

That last post was my best effort ~ so if that was off track or uninspiring, then I have clearly missed the point and should perhaps give up on this internet discussion business. It uses up very much time, and seems to be mostly futile!


Namaste, sri sarabhanga,

I've found your posts quite instuctional, both in terms of content as well as form :)

thank you!



Love,
ZN

satay
05 September 2007, 12:50 PM
pranam sarabhanga!



That last post was my best effort ~ so if that was off track or uninspiring, then I have clearly missed the point and should perhaps give up on this internet discussion business. It uses up very much time, and seems to be mostly futile!

It is very rare that a sadhu shares his or her knowledge on the internet in discussion groups like these. Though I see why it is rare, I would like to say that there is a huge need of such sadhus (like yourself, yajvan, atanu and others) especially on the Internet.

It is here on the Internet that our new generation is spending their time. It is also here where much confusion and propaganda is being spread about Dharma in general and Sanatana Dharma in particular.

I would request you to continue to share your wealth of knowledge with all of us. Though the discussion business may seem futile for now and most of the time, I am confident that if it helps even one person in the world gain correct knowledge about Dharma then the purpose of HDF would have been served.

For your kind consideration...

yajvan
05 September 2007, 02:10 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

I have not only suggested HOW to read, but also exactly WHAT to read!

ONE ~ vaishvAnara = aitareya (upaniSad)
TWO ~ taijasa = bRhadAraNyaka (upaniSad)
THREE ~ turIyAtIta = chAndogya (upaniSad)
FOUR ~ turIya = mANDUkya (upaniSad)
FIVE ~ turya = Isha (upaniSad)
One, two, three, four, five,
Once I caught a fish alive,
Six, seven, eight, nine, ten,
Then I let it go again.

Why did you let it go?
Because it bit my finger so.
Which finger did it bite?
This little finger on the right.



You are the Infinite; you are the ocean; be the ocean where ever you may be.

This is very good advice, but it does not suggest what books to read, in what sequence, in what frame of mind, for what result!

Every time I put a simple equation into a post, the actual words seem to be entirely ignored. Is there some fear of mathematical symbols? I just don't get it. :dunno:

Was this thread only intended as a long list of possible reading?

Regarding what and how to progress through the library, the suggestion of "as you like" or "follow your Guru's advice" were deemed insufficient for most, so I did my best to provide a defined course (indeed, a tried and true short-cut through the maze), but apparently the spirit of the thread has been lost!

That last post was my best effort ~ so if that was off track or uninspiring, then I have clearly missed the point and should perhaps give up on this internet discussion business. It uses up very much time, and seems to be mostly futile!

Namaste Sarabhanga,

If I may let me address a few of your well thought out points:

From your posts I would not have considered the formulaic offerings as a suggested reading list e.g. ONE ~ vaishvAnara = aitareya (upaniSad). Yet - the books you allude to is part of my library and regular reading. I am in hopes others see this as a potential list to consider.

re: You are the Infinite; you are the ocean; be the ocean where ever you may be This is very good advice, but it does not suggest what books to read.

You are correct - In fact I thought the question posed was curious at best. So I responded in a way I think he would have if I asked him.That of being Infinite infers him saying - "yajvan , you are competent to choose wisely, you have gotten this far, make your choices accordingly" . That perhaps sarabhanga is not the answer you are looking for but I answered it honestly the way He would have, I believe.

re: Every time I put a simple equation into a post, the actual words seem to be entirely ignored. Is there some fear of mathematical symbols? I just don't get it

The Formulaic Approach
I am very much at home with math, calculus, algebraic expressions and the like... yet to answer you honestly - all the 'math' I have seen from the Turiya postings and others, I am not clear as to what axioms are now representing reality [Brahman] and which ones are perhaps re-posts of a debated point, or re-addressed concept, etc. or a grammar correction i.e. long A, vs. short, masculine vs. femine, etc. that is being debated or discussed with Atanu. I could not honestly answer today if the smoke has cleared, what conclusions have been assessed.

As of late it was like drinking out of a fire hose at 200 psi. I can see how the conversation got to the level of detail - to increase clarity and specificity of your notions and I thank you. IMHO I found that the forest was no longer in discussion but each needle on each branch was being evaluated. This for me, only increased the diversity and complexity of the matter, so I left the conversations. I for one can use a fresh piece of paper, but that is me. [ please do not act on this, as I just need to re-read the posts for a 3rd time... ]


re: Was this thread only intended as a long list of possible reading?
Sarabhanga, the post was not a reading list... I seem not be able to communicate this to the audience as of late. The intent was to outline what exists. Note that this post is in New To Sanatana Dharma folder. Hence new folks perhaps trying to get the lay of the land. The various offers and possibilities of how vedic literature is structured and what is out there. This I cannot stress enough, yet I Have been abysmally unsuccessful in doing this. uuuggh , gasp!
(((((http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon9.gif --http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon11.gif))))))

I have re-read my posts and they look succinct enough, yet I view it from my eyes. We did not even get to the conversation of what reading may be attractive before the 'dog pile' occurred. Hence I will not even consider addressing it at this point.

re: That last post was my best effort ~ so if that was off track or uninspiring, then I have clearly missed the point and should perhaps give up on this internet discussion business. It uses up very much time, and seems to be mostly futile.

I can appreciate what you say, and sense the exasperation. Words bring mischief, mostly unintentionally. Each of us have filters, biases , etc. Your posts have always been rewarding to read and I hope more are on the way.

My orientation is to offer HDF various ideas, thoughts, perspectives to stimulate interest, and perhaps by His grace an 'ahhh ha' or two for ones advancement may occur. If this is not valuable, then maybe its time for me to go sell earth shoes again! http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds, do not overload them. Put there just a spark. ... Anatole France


From my last posting to you and to ZN, I have taken full responsibility for the conversation - if it went sideways, so be it, and that is how the graha's influenced at that time... maybe a different muhurta would have yielded a different conversation. That said, the value you bring to HDF is recognized and appreciated.

To teach is to learn twice... Joseph Joubert


pranams,

Nuno Matos
05 September 2007, 07:51 PM
Namaste Sarahbanga and all on this tread

I have just finished a quick redding on the books you have recommended and it seems to me that the books really express in terms of correspondence of contents the five fold plan of Self discovery that you have been presenting to us. Very illuminating indeed.
Thank you honorable Sri Sarahbanga Giri for the Knowledge offered.

saidevo
05 September 2007, 09:17 PM
Namaste Sarabhanga, Yajvan, Satay, ZN, Atanu, Nuno and everyone else.

While we are all discussing a reading plan for our Hindu Scriptures, Nuno has tested Sarabhanga's recommendation by a quick reading and found it accurate and illuminating in the path to Self discovery!

So Satay has proved a point: that Sarabhanga's concise commendations of truths are useful for at least one person in HDFpuri. They are of immense value for me personally, packed like the light in a gem that you can pocket in your mind and look at and admire in your leisure for better understanding. The air of finally in them is different and refreshing from what we see in the teachings of other gurus.

And that's it, Sarabhanga. We are all blessed to have a Sadhu like you devote some time (however much it be) for the spiritual advancement of neophytes like me and in many ways you are a guru here in HDFpuri. Please do continue your writings in HDF whatever it costs you personally/spiritually.

Now, of the major upanishads, you have mentioned only five. Would you please classify the study of the other parts of the Vedas, and then the Smriti for a reading approach? Where does the Gita figure in the five stages? It seems that the six darshanas can fall nicely into the five levels of consciousness their study may be structured in?

It would be helpful if advanced souls like Yajvan, Atanu and others describe what they read and in what order and what other measures they adopted to reach their current levels.

satay
05 September 2007, 11:24 PM
Namaste all,

Actually, I don't really understand what happened on this thread. This probably because Yajvan, I and others have had conversations along the lines of 'helping new comers to sanatana dharma that come to HDF'. The first two posts are made in that spirit and context i.e. to help those who are new comers to the study of hinduism.

Case in point, myself, I am new to hinduism, aside from the very little I know from family there is nothing academically I know. So when I read the original two posts, I see a nice 'reference point' to come back to when I need to check what exists academically for a student of hinduism.

Sarabhanga has suggested a nice clear cut path of what to study and how to start for the new comer which was the second step that yajvan was going to offer in another post. This is a continuation of the original conversation isn't it? IMHO the spirit of the posts are not lost, we are simply and naturally at the next step...

isn't it? or am I missing something?

and for some like myself and ZN random readings are the best...but for me at least in this randomness there seems to be a mysterious pattern...

sarabhanga
05 September 2007, 11:48 PM
From your posts I would not have considered the formulaic offerings as a suggested reading list,

e.g. ONE ~ vaishvAnara = aitareya (upaniSad).

I am in hopes others see this as a potential list to consider.

Namaste Yajvan,

In a thread that begins with:




There is much to read. I liken it to walking into a library for the fist time and seeing all the books.

Where does one start? Fiction ? Non-Fiction? The sciences? Perhaps it makes sense to layout the library so one can then pick and choose where one might want to investigate.

What should one read first?

Now where to start?

I ask others for their recommendations.

I look to others for their recommendations on this matter.

In such a thread, how could one NOT expect to find a suggested reading list?

I prefer not to post anything superfluous, and ALL of the words that I do post actually mean something.

ONE ~ aitareya
TWO ~ bRhadAraNyaka
THREE ~ chAndogya
FOUR ~ mANDUkya
FIVE ~ Isha

Such a list could ONLY be referring to the upaniSada!




Look at the HDF conversation on turiya/turya - a very simple state of Being, yet we are perhaps 15 pages deep in this discussion, as we unfold the fabric of consciousness.

Yet some write me from HDF and are not certain of the conversation.

So I brought in the idea of progressing through levels of consciousness, collecting and arranging the most important ideas from the turIya thread to better illuminate the often repeated sequence.




This is my orientation...if ones consciousness is not groomed, developed and expanded, then comprehension is not operating at maximum performance.

Exactly so! And that is why the appropriate frame of mind for each level of consciousness was also given.




I could not honestly answer today if the smoke has cleared, what conclusions have been assessed.

There was never any smoke, in my eyes, and from my first post until the last there was never any change in my view.

This is basically where I began:




turya is “the 4th”, and especially “the 4th state of the soul”. And turya also refers to “being in the 4th state of soul”.

turIya means “of 4 parts”, and it indicates “the 4th state of spirit (pure impersonal spirit or brahma)”. And turIya also refers to “being in the 4th state of soul”.

Whichever term is used, we must be careful to distinguish the 4th state itself from the various grades of experiencing or being in that state. For one who is entirely immersed in the turya state, there is surely no difference, but for discussion we must recognize these two aspects of meaning.

Shri Gaudapada used turya when referring to the absolute “4th”, so perhaps the term turIya should be reserved for “being in the 4th state of soul”.

In which case, the turIya could indeed be described as a “bridge” to the turya.

And, while the nature of turya is beyond cetana, the experience of turIya certainly involves cetana.

The “3rd state” of Consciousness is known as prAjña, and the genitive (“of the 3rd state”) is prAjñasya.

The Aitareyopanishad, however, uses the term pra-jñAna (“great knowledge or wisdom”) and the genitive prajñAnasya (“of great wisdom”).

prajñA (“wisdom”) is the basis of the world. Verily, prajñAna (“great wisdom”) is brahma.

As “deep sleep”, prAjña is pra-ajña (“very unconscious”), and this is different to the “great intelligence” of pra-jñA.

turya = prajñA = brahma

Immersed in turIya (as brahmA) one experiences prajñA but appears to be prAjña.

turIya (or being in turya) happens in prAjña, but it is the “bridge” to turya.

From the perspective of both turya and turIya, however, prAjña and prajñA (like the opposites of vidyA and avidyA) are one and the same.

turIya is a veritable bridge to turya.

prAjña is a veritable bridge to prajñA.

brahmA is a veritable bridge to brahma.

And before ANY particular aspect of absolute Consciousness is dissected and described we must already have distinguished these identical Twins.

And this is basically where I finished:




The turya is first, and remains always one, undivided.

The turIya is second, and undergoes self division ~ 2/2 or 3/3 or 7/7 (etc.).

The creative formula is “1/1 divided by 3/3 remains equal to 1”.

God is eternally unified, and yet always triple in expression ~ and 1 + 3 = 4.

And in ajAtivAda, only the turya exists as an intrinsic eternal verity.


brahman exists.

brahman is unborn and eternal.

brahman is one, alone, but apparently twain (as yama).

There is nothing beyond brahma (the parabrahman or brahmayoni).


brahma = pañcamukha = parabrahman = aditi = “[ I ] am” = ekapAda = brahmayoni = sahasrAkshara = hRdayAkAsha
brahmA = caturmukha = brahman = Aditya = “I am” = tripAda = brahmabIja= akshara = AkAsha


So let us consider the apparent divergence of brahma and brahmA:

brahmA from brahma = a
Aditya from aditi = aa or aya
In brahmA there is motivation and active breath, while in brahma everything is silent and fixed.

caturmukha from pañcamukha = ekamukha
tripAda from ekapAda = dvipAda
brahmA appears with one face and two legs (i.e. in the image of man), while brahma remains indescribable.

brahman from parabrahman = para
akshara from sahasrAkshara = sahasra
brahma is exceeding and infinite, while brahmA is limited and finite.

I am from [ I ] am = [ ]
brahma is known only by implication, whereas brahmA is explicit.

bIja from yoni = nirRti
brahma is remains unbounded and sterile, while brahmA is ever fertile and repeatedly divided.

AkAsha from hRdayAkAsha = hRdaya
brahmA is the mortal frame, while brahma is the immortal heart.

NOTHING has changed in my assessment of grammar, and no gender has been re-assigned! The rest of the thread was only absorbing objections or clarifying apparent ommissions, and all of the expansions and variations remain entirely consistent with the same theme.




My orientation is to offer HDF various ideas, thoughts, perspectives to stimulate interest, and perhaps by His grace an 'ahhh ha' or two for ones advancement may occur. If this is not valuable, then maybe its time for me to go sell earth shoes again!

Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds, do not overload them. Put there just a spark. ... Anatole France

You have been doing an excellent job of stimulating interest and discussion, and I must apologize for having not yet followed up on some of your important leads.

yajvan
06 September 2007, 09:56 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste all,

Actually, I don't really understand what happened on this thread. This probably because Yajvan, I and others have had conversations along the lines of 'helping new comers to sanatana dharma that come to HDF'.

Case in point, myself, I am new to hinduism, aside from the very little I know from family there is nothing academically I know. So when I read the original two posts, I see a nice 'reference point' to come back to when I need to check what exists academically for a student of hinduism.

Sarabhanga has suggested a nice clear cut path of what to study and how to start for the new comer which was the second step that yajvan was going to offer in another post.


From Saidevo
Now, of the major upanishads, you have mentioned only five. Would you please classify the study of the other parts of the Vedas, and then the Smriti for a reading approach? Where does the Gita figure in the five stages? It seems that the six darshanas can fall nicely into the five levels of consciousness their study may be structured in?

It would be helpful if advanced souls like Yajvan, Atanu and others describe what they read and in what order and what other measures they adopted to reach their current levels.

From sarabhanga
Originally Posted by Yajvan
I could not honestly answer today if the smoke has cleared, what conclusions have been assessed.

There was never any smoke, in my eyes, and from my first post until the last there was never any change in my view.


Namste all,
Thank you for posting your observations and positions...

Satay, what you say has been my intent from the first post, I am happy that the post has some residual value.

Saidevo, I will be happy to post some of the reading material as reference points.

Sarabahanga - thank you for your reply and your initial reading recommedations.
My rebuttals on this matter has always been that of my experience and speaking honestly. I am happy no smoke was your eyes, yet in mine, and still not cleared away. How so? Reading a post does not guarantee comprehension - even with the best intent from the author. That is the orientation of my feedback to you. If others got many of the posts with crystal clarity of mind, then I know I am in good company and will need to wait for my comprehension to catch up.


So now I think we can move on with the notion here. - What ever reading recommendations are given it's about the content that one may be able to enjoy and hopefully comprehend. That which is not comprehended is a good HDF post for discussion.

Hence one may recommend a reading sequence but its not about reading order - that is, if one chooses to read backwards or upside down ( sukracharaka's tapas) , then that is a matter of choice - So is the wisdom of those responses to this string up to now.


All men by nature desire knowledge ...Aristotle


pranams and am happy we can move on,

sarabhanga
06 September 2007, 06:49 PM
Namaste Yajvan,




One may recommend a reading sequence but its not about reading order - that is, if one chooses to read backwards or upside down (sukracharaka's tapas) , then that is a matter of choice - So is the wisdom of those responses to this string up to now.

All men by nature desire knowledge ...Aristotle

We can move on.

Hold your horses!

When one is browsing the whole library, an intelligently guided “random” approach is valuable. But when a teacher offers a specialized course, it would be foolish indeed to think it might be a good idea to consider the final year’s text first and then gradually work back to the first year!

When one is reading a thriller, the best thrill comes when you save the last chapter for last!

If one is currently in the turIya mind, then full benefit will be gained from the IsopaniSad, but not otherwise.

The entry level consciousness for all aspirants is vaishvAnara, so it would be wise to begin at the beginning!

I am sure that you have read these upaniSada before, but I doubt that the suggested course has been properly followed.

The curriculum is ancient and unfailing ~ known to shrI shaMkarAcArya and gauDapAda, to the veda-vyAsa, and to shrI kRSNa himself!

Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever, all living creatures rest and are dependent.
Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

The aitareya is perfect wisdom for brahmacarya.
The bRhadAraNyaka is perfect wisdom for gRhastha.
The chAndogya is perfect wisdom for vAnaprastha.
The mANDUkya is perfect wisdom for saMnyAsa.
And the Isha is perfect wisdom for avadhUta.

This is a life-time course, with a life-guarantee ~ but it is a guided and gradual progression with certain expectations and assumed obligations that should NOT be taken lightly!

It is a short-cut through the maze, but the rate of progress depends on individual circumstance and capacity.

yajvan
06 September 2007, 07:48 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,


Hold your horses!

When one is browsing the whole library, an intelligently guided “random” approach is valuable. But when a teacher offers a specialized course, it would be foolish indeed to think it might be a good idea to consider the final year’s text first and then gradually work back to the first year!

When one is reading a thriller, the best thrill comes when you save the last chapter for last!

If one is currently in the turIya mind, then full benefit will be gained from the IsopaniSad, but not otherwise.

The entry level consciousness for all aspirants is vaishvAnara, so it would be wise to begin at the beginning!

I am sure that you have read these upaniSada before, but I doubt that the suggested course has been properly followed.

The curriculum is ancient and unfailing ~ known to shrI shaMkarAcArya and gauDapAda, to the veda-vyAsa, and to shrI kRSNa himself!

Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever, all living creatures rest and are dependent.
Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

The aitareya is perfect wisdom for brahmacarya.
The bRhadAraNyaka is perfect wisdom for gRhastha.
The chAndogya is perfect wisdom for vAnaprastha.
The mANDUkya is perfect wisdom for saMnyAsa.
And the Isha is perfect wisdom for avadhUta.

This is a life-time course, with a life-guarantee ~ but it is a guided and gradual progression with certain expectations and assumed obligations that should NOT be taken lightly!

It is a short-cut through the maze, but the rate of progress depends on individual circumstance and capacity.


Namaste sarabhanga,
to what you say, Amen...

this , I believe, you have articulated better then I could have.
I cannot put the cake in the oven until I mix the ingredients...


this IMHO opinion has been my orientation [ the logic of some order, and choosing what part of the 'library' fits the persons need at their point of developent in life] ]. Yet for some reason (rahu influences) the words did not land on two feet.

thank you and hope others will consider the wisdom offered,

pranams,

yajvan
06 September 2007, 08:56 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


Namaste,

One other point worth considering... as sarabhanga has pointed out 5 most important Upanishads, we all hear of an ocean of them.
As I look at my book shelve I see a collection 112. Why bring this up?

One key is the wisdom of Veda Vyasa and his Brahma Sutras. Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa ( Ved Vyas) only discussed 13 principle Upanishads in his works. That was his selection and he is the final authority in my eyes i.e. he only needed the 13 to bring out and resolve all the truth with regard to Brahman.

Yet we hear of 112, 108, etc etc. Being the right number. We look to those realized beings for guidance. As sarabhanga succinctly pointed out the 5 these are the benchmarks and are part of the 13.
They are:

Isa
Kena
Katha
Prasna
Mundaka
Manduka [ I added this to the list - I had inadvertently just missed this great work on the first posting ]
Aitareya
Taittiriya
Chandogya
Brihadaranakya
Kaushitaki
Svetasvatara
MaitrayaniThis is beautiful wisdom...these all come from various parts of the ved ( White and Back Yajur Ved, Sama Ved, Rik, etc etc). Please consider sarabhanga's starting points from his post.

So, how many potential Upanishads are there? As many Sakhas or branches , some call recensions. But how many? Well, the Rig Ved has 21 recentions, 109 for Yajur Ved, 1000 for Sama Ved and 50 for Atharva Ved = 1,180. Or a perfect 10; 1+1+8+0 = 10: the sum of the digits of 1,180. This 10 says Fullness of the Relative field of life = 1, and Fullenss of the Absolute level of life or 0. This 10 is the Fullness of Saguna + Nirguna = Brahman.

Then I would recommend the Bhagavad Gia - why so? it gives you the total lay of the land, condensed in 700 verses.

What remains to be ascertained... Am I a casual reader? or am I motivated to study this work. A question you will have to answer. Why so? IMHO and experience, reading one book from one author does not do the Gita justice.

If you have interest many on this forum can recommend several. I have several worth pondering.

Such is the wisdom we are considering in the Ocean of Knowledge, in the 'Library' ... and good reading to you.

pranams,

atanu
07 September 2007, 03:15 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste,

---One key is the wisdom of Veda Vyasa and his Brahma Sutras. Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa ( Ved Vyas) only discussed 13 principle Upanishads in his works. --- We look to those realized beings for guidance. As sarabhanga succinctly pointed out the 5 these are the benchmarks and are part of the 13.
They are:

Isa
Kena
Katha
Prasna
Mundaka
Aitareya
Taittiriya
Chandogogya
Brihadaranakya
Kaushitaki
Svetasvatara
Maitrayani--pranams,

Well, Mandukya (from sarabhanga ji's 5) is missing in the above list of 13. And Svetasvatara is missing from the five. Any light on this? Muktika Upanishad on the other hand, says that Mandukya is enough to attain Kaivalya and if Mandukya is not comprehended then a prescription for study of 10 Upanishads is given.

Om

yajvan
08 September 2007, 11:44 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~



Well, Mandukya (from sarabhanga ji's 5) is missing in the above list of 13. And Svetasvatara is missing from the five. Any light on this? Muktika Upanishad on the other hand, says that Mandukya is enough to attain Kaivalya and if Mandukya is not comprehended then a prescription for study of 10 Upanishads is given.

Om

Namate Atanu and Adhikarin's,
I missed Manduka Upanishad, oooopps! How can I miss my favorite? ( the list was 12 without it) - so I edited the post and Added it back in...
Let me do this - offer a reasonble post on this...so I will do some mimamasa ( investigation) to compare and contrast the list; How so ? Some say Adi Shankara had a list of 10 or eleven that he commented on, then some add a few more. I want to make sure where they align and where they do not. Some find Vyasa's work on the core 10 to 13 Upanishads, some add in the Bhagavad gita also to this list Vyyasa uses as the base for the Sutras.

Let me also add-in a bit of info on Brahama Sutras, some call Nyaya prasthana as you know, or the a logical starting point of Vednata. This will give us some substantial subject matter for discussion.

What I find always interesting is Vyasa's brilliance to connect the dots. We know this work contains 4 Adhyayas ( canto's or chapters) - 16 Padas or sections and the 555 sutras. This is of important to me as a reminder, this 16 padas. This points to Prasna Upanishad and the 16 parts, Purusha's shodasakala or 16 parts. We find this in the 3rd section of this Upanishad as Shashta Prasna.

We know He is not in 'parts' yet it is a vidya, a way of appreciating this Purusha for contemplation.


more in a bit,

pranams,

yajvan
09 September 2007, 10:18 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


Let me do this - offer a reasonble post on this...so I will do some mimamasa ( investigation) to compare and contrast the list; How so ? Some say Adi Shankara had a list of 10 or eleven that he commented on, then some add a few more. I want to make sure where they align and where they do not. Some find Vyasa's work on the core 10 to 13 Upanishads, some add in the Bhagavad gita also to this list Vyyasa uses as the base for the Sutras.

Let me also add-in a bit of info on Brahama Sutras, some call Nyaya prasthana as you know, or the a logical starting point of Vednata. This will give us some substantial subject matter for discussion.

pranams,

Namaste,
Keeping my commitment on this, the following HDF Post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=15825#post15825 , Post 1 and post 2 offers a perspective and insight on the Brahma sutras and Upanishads.

pranams,

Madhavan
10 September 2007, 04:25 AM
My favourite text is the Mundaka Up. A beautiful description of what happens in aparoxa is described here until the final goal is reached.

All upanishads must be read with commentaries and various viewpoints to appreciate the depth of each verse. No single author can really drive home all that he intends to say. In my opinion, even the samhitas and brahmanas deal with the heights of spiritual instruction if they are interpreted properly, though it is customary to dismiss them as karma kANDa.

sarabhanga
20 October 2007, 04:54 AM
Now, of the major upanishads, you have mentioned only five. Would you please classify the study of the other parts of the Vedas, and then the Smriti for a reading approach? Where does the Gita figure in the five stages? It seems that the six darshanas can fall nicely into the five levels of consciousness their study may be structured in?

Namaste Saidevo et al.,

A comprehensive reading approach for the whole library of dharma shAstra is rather a lot to ask!

The shruti texts, however, may be generally classified as follows:

vaishvAnara = saMhitA
taijasa = brAhmaNa
prAjña = AraNyaka
turya = upaniSad

vaishvAnara = sAmaveda
taijasa = yajurveda
prAjña = Rgveda
turya = atharvaveda

Which provides a logical starting point for shruti (in pure vaishvAnara) with the sAmaveda saMhitA, and an end (in pure turya) with the atharvan upaniSada (including the mANDukya).

The IshopaniSad is a special case, being the only upaniSad that is actually part of the mantra saMhitA (as the final chapter of the shukla yajurveda).

The muktikopaniSad gives excellent advice:

By what means is kaivalya moksha attained? The mANDUkya is enough!
If knowledge is not gained from it, then study the 10 upaniSada.
If certainty is not achieved even then, study the 32 upaniSada and stop.
If desiring moksha without the body, read the 108 upaniSada.