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devisarada
12 September 2007, 07:04 AM
Namaste All,

How does one respectfully tell one's Guru that one has outgrown him, and still maintain a good relationship?

Madhavan
12 September 2007, 09:05 AM
Namaste Devi,

What is the meaning of "outgrowing a guru"?

Does it mean

a) becoming more knowledgeable than the guru
b) Having some spiritual experience not experienced by the guru?
c) Guru's teaching becoming irrelevant or obsolete
d) Having a difference of opinion with guru
e) something else

If it is b), c) or d), it can be mentioned to the guru in a humble tone, and if the guru is really a guru, then he will either understand you or try to convince you. If it is a), it is likely the guru was either an unworthy one, or the student is of an egoistic nature.

Whatever, if the guru is an authentic one, one can maintain a good relationship regardless of the cause of disagreement. Otherwise, such a guru is not worthy of being called a guru in the first place. All real gurus consider the world to be their friend and family, and a disciple can never really cause him unhappiness.

satay
12 September 2007, 09:49 AM
Namaskar!


Namaste All,

How does one respectfully tell one's Guru that one has outgrown him, and still maintain a good relationship?

Just like one tells his parents that he is ready to move out of the house on his own...

In my opinion, a guru is like a mother or a father...just like a mother or a father would understand so should a guru...

just my humble opinion.

devisarada
12 September 2007, 12:15 PM
Namaste Devi,
What is the meaning of "outgrowing a guru"?

Does it mean

a) becoming more knowledgeable than the guru
b) Having some spiritual experience not experienced by the guru?
c) Guru's teaching becoming irrelevant or obsolete
d) Having a difference of opinion with guru
e) something else

If it is b), c) or d), it can be mentioned to the guru in a humble tone, and if the guru is really a guru, then he will either understand you or try to convince you. If it is a), it is likely the guru was either an unworthy one, or the student is of an egoistic nature.

Whatever, if the guru is an authentic one, one can maintain a good relationship regardless of the cause of disagreement. Otherwise, such a guru is not worthy of being called a guru in the first place. All real gurus consider the world to be their friend and family, and a disciple can never really cause him unhappiness.

Namaste Madhavan,

E, something else, is the cause for my concern. My Guru as asked me a number of times if I believe that he is God, or if I think he is perfect. He is very unhappy when I say that he is not God, but my direct link to God, and that he is not perfect because as a human being, how can any one be perfect. Then he quoted " Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnur, Gurur Devo Mahehsvara" and said does that not show that he is God?

Then he gave me a shawl with Devangari script. I asked him what it said, he said "Shri Ramaya Namah"
well, later, at home I looked at the picture on it. It was of Lord Krishna and Radha. So I found a site on the
internet, and after some time was able to translate it to be "Shri Radhe Shyam"

Because of these things, I am having doubts of his authenticity as a spiritual Guru.

Agnideva
12 September 2007, 12:47 PM
Namaste Devi,

E, something else, is the cause for my concern. My Guru as asked me a number of times if I believe that he is God, or if I think he is perfect. He is very unhappy when I say that he is not God, but my direct link to God, and that he is not perfect because as a human being, how can any one be perfect. Then he quoted " Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnur, Gurur Devo Mahehsvara" and said does that not show that he is God?

Then he gave me a shawl with Devangari script. I asked him what it said, he said "Shri Ramaya Namah"
well, later, at home I looked at the picture on it. It was of Lord Krishna and Radha. So I found a site on the
internet, and after some time was able to translate it to be "Shri Radhe Shyam"

Because of these things, I am having doubts of his authenticity as a spiritual Guru.
All of this sounds rather fishy and strange. Do you know if this guru belongs to any traditional and authentic lineage?

OM Shanti,
A.

devisarada
12 September 2007, 12:58 PM
Namaste Devi,

All of this sounds rather fishy and strange. Do you know if this guru belongs to any traditional and authentic lineage?

OM Shanti,
A.

Namaste Agnideva,

Thank-you for your interest in my dilemma. My guru is a pundit from a Brahmin family whose last name is Doobay. He was taught by his grandfather.

Madhavan
12 September 2007, 01:20 PM
Namaste Madhavan,

E, something else, is the cause for my concern. My Guru as asked me a number of times if I believe that he is God, or if I think he is perfect. He is very unhappy when I say that he is not God, but my direct link to God, and that he is not perfect because as a human being, how can any one be perfect. Then he quoted " Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnur, Gurur Devo Mahehsvara" and said does that not show that he is God?

Then he gave me a shawl with Devangari script. I asked him what it said, he said "Shri Ramaya Namah"
well, later, at home I looked at the picture on it. It was of Lord Krishna and Radha. So I found a site on the
internet, and after some time was able to translate it to be "Shri Radhe Shyam"

Because of these things, I am having doubts of his authenticity as a spiritual Guru.

Honestly I dont think any guru would force someone to beleive that he is God or that he is perfect. This guru does not appear too convincing...

Even Lord Krishna says to Arjuna:


For one whose mind is unbridled, self−realization is difficult work. But he whose mind is controlled and who strives by appropriate means is assured of success. That is My opinion. { 6.36}

There are numerous places where God himself states something and also adds that this is his 'opinion' so that it is left to Arjuna whether to accept it or not. When this is attitude of God of not forcing his 'beleifs' upon others, where does a human guru stand with respect to perfection?

devisarada
12 September 2007, 01:45 PM
Honestly I dont think any guru would force someone to beleive that he is God or that he is perfect. This guru does not appear too convincing...

Even Lord Krishna says to Arjuna:


For one whose mind is unbridled, self−realization is difficult work. But he whose mind is controlled and who strives by appropriate means is assured of success. That is My opinion. { 6.36}

There are numerous places where God himself states something and also adds that this is his 'opinion' so that it is left to Arjuna whether to accept it or not. When this is attitude of God of not forcing his 'beleifs' upon others, where does a human guru stand with respect to perfection?


Namaste Madhavan,

I fully agree with you. I have been thinking seriously of dissolving this Guru - chela relationship , but I wanted someone else's opinion, because I believe that such a relationship is sacred and should not be broken lightly.

satay
12 September 2007, 02:25 PM
Namaste Madhavan,

E, something else, is the cause for my concern. My Guru as asked me a number of times if I believe that he is God, or if I think he is perfect. He is very unhappy when I say that he is not God, but my direct link to God, and that he is not perfect because as a human being, how can any one be perfect. Then he quoted " Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnur, Gurur Devo Mahehsvara" and said does that not show that he is God?



'unhappy when you say that he is not God'... that's a rather red sign for me personally...If it were me, I would drop this relationship.

In my opinion, 'gurur brahma...' realization should come at its own not by guru insisting that he is brahma, vishnu and mahehsvara and then become unhappy if he was incapable of helping the sishya realize this truth!!

It is very easy to be a conman guru...

meez
12 September 2007, 02:26 PM
Would it be too awkward to bring this up to him and explain your concerns? I ask because I certainly understand how these situations can be fragile.

devisarada
12 September 2007, 03:00 PM
Would it be too awkward to bring this up to him and explain your concerns? I ask because I certainly understand how these situations can be fragile.

I've already told him that these things make me feel uncomfortable.

Eastern Mind
12 September 2007, 04:43 PM
I think others gave great answers to this very seeking question. It would cause a lot of reflection for me. How long have you been a devotee of this particular guru? In other words, there is loyalty, and if the differences are relatively minor... well. I would sit back and watch how others are treated, if there is any room for disagreement, and look closely at the nature of the relationship. I think there are good dharma teachers who you can learn a lot from on an intellectual level, and then there are satgurus who do most of their teaching from the inside, and can answer your questions and provide guidance without you even knowing it, on so many levels. In the end, only you can answer your own question. No one else is there, and has had your experiences, and in my experience, experience itself is THE great teacher. My guru often said "go lean on your own spine." which pretty much sums up my thoughts.

yajvan
12 September 2007, 05:45 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,
A few thoughts on this, if you are open to it....

"We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are." ...The Talmud

Now what does the wise also say?

'Some people say that having taken a guru you should not make another. But this doctrine is not of the shaastra, this is [just] mind's imagination. The guru is gone to for happiness. Up until when bhagavad (God, Vishnu, Shiva) is gained, up until then you can go and change guru. So then we haven't seen any guru-bhakt (devotee) always studying in the same 'class' of a guru out of fear. Actually it is natural to transfer 'class' and to transfer guru. It is not disrespectful to the former guru, actually respect has been done the guru, but if you are to go beyond that study, you get the discipline of new gurus.'... Brahmanda Saraswati, Shankarachara of Jyotir Matt, 1941 to 1953

sm78
13 September 2007, 02:02 AM
I may have little to add here, but traditionally it is believed that it is the Guru Parampara and the entire Guru Mandala whom we should look at and not the present Guru.

If the parampara is a siddha guru parampara like that of the smarta sampradaya then confusion about the present guru will be easily overcome.

Individual guru's whose spiritual origins are not disclosed, are not the type of Gurus one should seek in the path of Sanatana Dharma ~ even if he actually appears as powerful and Charismatic as God.

This my bottom line. I have strong "desire" to be initiated into the Sri Vidya. And I have made my mind, that I will do so only from someone of the Gaudapadiya sampradaya ~ which starts from Bhagvan Narayana himself. The person who initiates me can be a sadhak and not a siddha, but from this sampradaya.

meez
13 September 2007, 08:55 AM
I've already told him that these things make me feel uncomfortable.

What was his response to your concerns?

devisarada
13 September 2007, 10:44 PM
What was his response to your concerns?

When I expressed my concerns diplomatically over the phone, he did not react. However, I sent him an email today, telling him directly that I have been churning these issues for quite some time , and that

I worship the Divinity within my Guru, not his personality or humanness

I worship the Perfection within my Guru, not his personality or humanness, and that I hope he can accept that.


He has not responded as yet.

I would prefer to have a guru who has more humility, and would not allow himself to be referred to as
"His Divine Holiness" on posters and event notices sent out to the public.

For me this smacks of hubris to an unacceptible degree.

Even the Dalai Lama and the Pope are referred to only as "His Holiness" I don't think that he has earned the title of "His Divine Holiness"

devisarada
13 September 2007, 10:47 PM
I think others gave great answers to this very seeking question. It would cause a lot of reflection for me. How long have you been a devotee of this particular guru? In other words, there is loyalty, and if the differences are relatively minor... well. I would sit back and watch how others are treated, if there is any room for disagreement, and look closely at the nature of the relationship. I think there are good dharma teachers who you can learn a lot from on an intellectual level, and then there are satgurus who do most of their teaching from the inside, and can answer your questions and provide guidance without you even knowing it, on so many levels. In the end, only you can answer your own question. No one else is there, and has had your experiences, and in my experience, experience itself is THE great teacher. My guru often said "go lean on your own spine." which pretty much sums up my thoughts.

I do feel a sense of loyalty, and for me , a guru/shishya relationship is similar to a marriage: you don't get out at the first sign of trouble. So I have stated my concerns to him, and I am awaiting a reply.

Thanks for your concern and your excellent advice.

meez
14 September 2007, 09:03 AM
When I expressed my concerns diplomatically over the phone, he did not react. However, I sent him an email today, telling him directly that I have been churning these issues for quite some time , and that

I worship the Divinity within my Guru, not his personality or humanness

I worship the Perfection within my Guru, not his personality or humanness, and that I hope he can accept that.


He has not responded as yet.

I would prefer to have a guru who has more humility, and would not allow himself to be referred to as
"His Divine Holiness" on posters and event notices sent out to the public.

For me this smacks of hubris to an unacceptible degree.

Even the Dalai Lama and the Pope are referred to only as "His Holiness" I don't think that he has earned the title of "His Divine Holiness"

I completely understand. If you feel uncomfortable with the situation, and you believe that you can find another Guru/Teacher that will help you learn in a manner you are comfortable with, I say go for it. I certainly don't see the harm in that. You have expressed your concerns, so there won't be any confusion as to your decisions, and if you handle things with compassion and kindness, you should be just fine. Good luck my friend, I wish you the best. Be well.

devisarada
14 September 2007, 09:21 AM
I completely understand. If you feel uncomfortable with the situation, and you believe that you can find another Guru/Teacher that will help you learn in a manner you are comfortable with, I say go for it. I certainly don't see the harm in that. You have expressed your concerns, so there won't be any confusion as to your decisions, and if you handle things with compassion and kindness, you should be just fine. Good luck my friend, I wish you the best. Be well.

Pranam, Meez and everyone else who has helped me clarify my dilemma.

It is good to have input from different perspectives when you are not sure of your decision. I have decided to maintain the "Official" guru/shishya relationshop with him for now. Until I find a more suitable guru.

When this man offered to by my Guru, I was overwhelmed that anyone could think that I was worthy of being his devotee. My husband and I had a meeting with him at his home, and we were both impressed at the time. However, as we got to know him, we became less and less comfortable. So I have learned my lesson, the next guru I accept will be one that I have gotten to know very well before I commit to Guru Diksha again.