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yajvan
26 September 2007, 12:50 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Krsna advises in the Gita ( 8.6) that 'whoever at the time of death (antakaale) quits his body and remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.'

So, one must ask, how can I do this? If the death is peaceful, one can prepare for this and remember Krsna, Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya.

Yet what of all the myriad of ways Yama comes to ones door? Car crash, lightening, hit by a bus, shot, all these ways where there is no prep time. What is one to do?

It seems to me one must be prepared before hand and established in the SELF. That is, Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization) or turiyatit chetana.
This is = to being established in Krsna or Siva, etc. and absorbed in their Being. One is only 'thinking' of Krsna-Siva as that is the only thing the mind is anchored in.

It seems this is the formula, other then having a peaceful death and being able to bring the proper thoughts at the last breath. Yet training for this though-out ones life is not a bad idea!

Any comments or POVs on this matter?


pranams,

Znanna
26 September 2007, 05:40 PM
Namaste,

To experience the body, the meat-sack, as an accessory rather than the essence of manifestation I think makes the transition easier, at least I hope so :)


Love,
ZN

yajvan
26 September 2007, 06:06 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

To experience the body, the meat-sack, as an accessory rather than the essence of manifestation I think makes the transition easier, at least I hope so :)

Love,
ZN


Hello ZN,
I have no idea what you said...http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
That is, its not about dying. Its about becoming Full in Consciousness and not coming back to Bhu Loka... that is, rebirth.

Eastern Mind
26 September 2007, 06:48 PM
The realisation of the Self is not easy. From what I have read, it takes tremendous willpower and self-control. To talk about on these forums is one thing... to do it is another. Personally, I would be extremely surprised if anyone here is self-realised. (I doubt that you would be here if you actually were) At death, I hope that I can be reborn into a situation where this soul can have the opportunity to realise the Self. That will take some punya earned, and some ego spun downward. If not next lifetime, perhaps the next, or the next. That is each soul's destiny after all. But we as Hindus are fortunate indeed to have re-incarnation firmly implanted. I have, however, heard of self-realisation upon the deathbed, but it would suggest you need to come back and do it again. Aum Namashivaya

yajvan
26 September 2007, 07:58 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

The realisation of the Self is not easy. From what I have read, it takes tremendous willpower and self-control. To talk about on these forums is one thing... to do it is another. Personally, I would be extremely surprised if anyone here is self-realised. (I doubt that you would be here if you actually were) At death, I hope that I can be reborn into a situation where this soul can have the opportunity to realise the Self. That will take some punya earned, and some ego spun downward. If not next lifetime, perhaps the next, or the next. That is each soul's destiny after all. But we as Hindus are fortunate indeed to have re-incarnation firmly implanted. I have, however, heard of self-realisation upon the deathbed, but it would suggest you need to come back and do it again. Aum Namashivaya

Namaste EM,
Thank you for your post. I have a different view on this matter.
You mention 'To talk about on these forums is one thing... to do it is another'.

It takes both - talking and practice. Knowledge and experience. The realization of SELF, or Brahma Sakshtkara or turiyatit chetana does not come by happenstance.

The knowledge part is that of reading, shastras, etc. and being in good company or satsang, this would be HDF.
And practice is that of meditative techniques, kriya techniques, devotion , etc. Or if one can follow the teachings of Patanjali then one is never lost.

You mention , 'Personally, I would be extremely surprised if anyone here is self-realised'. Okay, yet I have not asked every one. You also say 'why then would you be here? Simple - to help others. This is the greatest service one can do is to assist others, because you come to the realization they are an extention of yourself. i.e. you do His work.

Now, you can ask many here if they have had glimpses , a preview of this Brahma Sakshtkara. This would be a reasonable question. For me, I would need to leave my ego at the door to answer. As would others.

Another question. Do you know of people that have these experiences for long lengths of time. Yes ( months). Do you know people that are established in this turiyatit chetana 7x24x365. Yes.

So as my teacher has told me many times, well begun is half done. I am not waiting for the next round of birth. If not now then when? Even Krsna says with this yoga, no effort is ever lost. [ Bhagavad Gita Chapt 2.40]


Ones pursuit is a continuum, once you start, the process continues life to life. This pursuit of dhirah.
I leave you with the offering from the wisdom of Sanatsujata:

abhidhyA vai prathamaM hanti chainaM kAma-krodhau gRhya chainaM tu pashchAt /
ete bAlAn-mRtyave prApayanti dhIrastu dhairyena taranti mRtyuM //

Meaning, First the whole thing starts with abhidhyA, that is, contemplation on sense objects. That kills you first. Then Desire and anger take hold of you. These take you, who are now a puppet in their hands.

But a self-composed man (*dhIraH*) transcends death by his courage and composure. The word dhIraH is a very important word in scriptural literature, pregnant with meaning. Ordinarily it means just ‘a brave soul’.

But the etymological derivation gives: *dhiyaM Irayati iti dhIraH* The verb Irayati means: agitates, excites, confirms. The intelligence is convinced and confirmed about the real Truth and this Truth Shankara says is the oneness of JIvAtmA and ParamAtmA. Therefore a dhIra is neutral and unattached to all duals: pleasure and pain, favour and disfavour, cold and heat, blame and praise, profit and loss, victory and defeat, happiness and suffering, joy and sorrow, friend and foe, success and failure, good and bad, likes and dislikes, honour and humiliation.

If one does not start now, in this life, then when?


pranams,

Eastern Mind
28 September 2007, 06:24 PM
Yajvan: I am not sure if we disagree or not. Perhaps it is just language. I am not familiar with some of the scriptures or people you quoted, other than Shankara, whom I have not read, but just heard of. My weak understanding is that he was a scholar and a siddhar, which would be rare, in my opinion. Tirumular also had that as reputation. Perhaps I am biased by experience. I have met scholars who could quote hither thither, yet didn't practice the religion. In fact, a couple were Christians studying the texts of Hinduism, and lecturing about it. They were certainly more well versed than me. As to the practise, well the fact that they were Christian, and I'm a Hindu says it all.
Regarding talk, many of the great saints almost advised against it by saying things like "Only say what is true, necessary, or helpful." Ramana Maharshi didn't say a whole lot, yet Aurobindo did, at least he wrote it down.
You say we need knowledge and experience. I agree, but only the knowledge that puts us firmly on one straight path, not 'excessive talk' or scholarly knowledge that binds the intellect in a gridded way, and then becomes a barrier on the path rather than a help. This is in the line of selecting a parampara that suits you, then following it wholeheartedly. The Self is inside, through dhyana, not in book knowledge. The book knowledge does serve to reaffirm to oneself that his inner learnings are on the right path, not some side trail.
Regarding someone being self-realized on here, these forms, I did not discount the possibility. But this is not the best format for a guru-disciple relationship. Face to face is a lot better, as then the guru can work on the inside as well. I would think that a Guru would be better off working that way, would be helping more people. Besides, on here, we have every parampara, every sect, much variety of belief. Which of course is a good thing, as we can discuss commonalities at least. But in terms of a teacher being on here, he (or she) would have to be sort of teaching all the paramparas at once, which in my opinion would be a mistake, and might lead to confusion in a seeker. I have met only a few gurus outside of my own parampara. (Occasionally in airports etc., too) I always approach, and touch their feet, worshipping the divine within them, but I don't sit down and listen, or go to a talk. One guru is (more than) enough for me.
Besides, as you and I both know, it would not be too hard to 'pretend' especially on here. All you have to do is regurgitate someone else's words. A little editing here and there... well, you know.
On your last quote, of course Now is the time to start. I totally agree with that point. The more times a day I can be reminded of Siva the better.
Aum Namashivaya

Znanna
09 October 2007, 03:47 PM
ZN:

To experience the body, the meat-sack, as an accessory rather than the essence of manifestation I think makes the transition easier, at least I hope so :)

Yajvan:

I have no idea what you said...http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

That is, its not about dying. Its about becoming Full in Consciousness and not coming back to Bhu Loka... that is, rebirth.

Namaste,

Please let me elaborate, then, in attempts to clarify my brevity ;)

What I'm saying is that recognizing that the body, the meat-sack (as I perjoratively put it), is unnecessary WHILE LIVING is, IMO, an important step to releasing attachment to the Form which would then cause one to potentially desire rebirth.

This is why I called it "an accessory", like a handbag or whatnot. It's handy, but not needful. One can practice doing things without the physical construct, and get so good at it that physical would be optional (like I said before, at least I hope so!)

Souls are not a byproduct of the body, if anything, the body is a reflection of the soul's desire to create form.

That said, obviously I'm here :) ... but who's saying I perhaps may not be noncorporal from another's point of view with respect to time and space? I know many who are noncorporal; perhaps to them, I am as well?

Hope that helps!


Love,
ZN