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yajvan
27 September 2007, 09:29 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I have been thinking of this as of late, basically just to stretch my mind.
I would like to see if anyone can come up with a concept or idea on this matter... please join in!

We live in a cause-and-effect universe. Action and reaction. We also know that this universe dissolves and goes back into the absolute every zillion-billion-zillion³ years.

So lets say this... each re-creation or permutation of the new universe comes up and it is driven by different laws of nature. Visnu chooses another flavor, another mode of operation. The notion is, He is here for ever and that is a long time... so for fun He chooses a different mode of operation to observe.

What could that possibly be?
Action and no action? I throw a ball to the ground and it does not bounce back? One goes to perpetuate the race of the family of man and no off-spring. It seems this type of universe would not last, but it gives you an example of the alternate idea of a universe. Not very creative on my part to say the least.

Can you think of another type of universe ? Maybe where one starts where all people are enlightened, then over time become un-enlightened? Hummm... not too exciting but a possibility.

Just a thought to stretch ones imagination. Have any ideas?

pranams,

yajvan
29 September 2007, 08:46 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Can you think of another type of universe ?
Just a thought to stretch ones imagination. Have any ideas?
pranams,

Namaste,
I was thinking of another universe type...
What of one that had a change of gunas. Instead of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, there was only Sattva and Rajas.

Why did I pick only 2? Rago-guna gives action and motion. So action is still a fundmental part of the universal equation and therre to fulfill and spurn desires. Yet it results in either:
a. More action
b. Sattva

Tamas or inertness, dullness , is not part of the set.

Well how does one get balance, how does sleep occur ( an off-shoot of tamas)? it happens via perfect sattva balance . Perfect lightness of Being will give one ( and all beings) rest.

Tamas will not then pull down the individual to tamasic bad behaviors. Sattva and Rajas will compel one to Moksha. As Moksha is the absence of all 3 gunas, the cycle time to this state should be left.

Who then is left out of the equation here ? I would assume the asuryas?


Just a thought....

Eastern Mind
29 September 2007, 02:06 PM
Namaste Yajvan: I believe there are other worlds, but the universe I believe is one. The Yugas and description of life during those Yugas illustrate some of the ideas you are imagining. I think we are pretty tiny in the Universe, and that there would be other planets full of self-realised souls, full of plants only, animal/plant life forms we can hardly imagine, violence like you've never seen etc etc etc. However, we are here and now on this planet. This is the place for our collective soul's to evolve towards the final Merge. It is a fire planet, capable of sustaining this body where our soul can inhabit, as we know it. Go out at night and look up. Aum Namashivaya

saidevo
30 September 2007, 05:20 AM
Namaste Yajvan and EM.

I think that Swami Prakashanand Saraswati has the answers required in this thread in his Website http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/ which is a summary of his famous work of the same name. A glance at the articles 1, 47 to 53 in the Sitemap at http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/site_map.htm gives us following points based on his study of Srimad Bhagavatam, which is the authority on the subject of Creation.

1. There is only one Universe. It has several Brahmandas, each headed by a Brahma.

The Universe, as its name indicates, is the only Prapanja created; it is the only Cosmic manifestation comprising the sum total of all cosmic material energy. The term multiverse is only a hypothetical postulation by science, more in the nature of a meta-universe than an actual, existing one, whereas the Universe is physically observed by science, day in and day out.

The Brahmanda is a planetary system with its celestial abodes that are in different space (dimension). One galaxy has a great number of Brahmandas.

2. The Universe contains uncountable Galaxies (over a hundred billion, according to science). The Brahmandas are located inside the galaxies.

3. Vishnu, as the Supreme God of Creation uses three factors to start the process of creation: souls with their karmas, maya, time.

Souls are unlimited, infinitesimal 'life' forms, each having a subtle mind of their own. When they take a human body, the mind has its fullest growth, and thereafter their actions result in karma.

Maya (the cosmic power) is a lifeless miraculous energy or power. It has three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas, Satvic.

Time (kala) is an eternal energy like maya which is a strong force that starts the manifestation of the mayic attributes (which gradually become the universe), and then it keeps the universe moving forward until Maha Pralaya.

4. The souls with their karmas, maya and time are dormant in their current status inside God during Maha Pralaya and are activated by the will of God in the next cycle of creation.

"After certain subtle phases of evolution the first thing that comes into being is the endless empty space. There are seven phases of extremely subtle manifestations of maya that had already happened before the ‘space’ came into being." -- says Swamiji, but he does not explain what these phases are. Yajvan and others who are well versed in Srimad Bhagavatam may please explain these seven subtle phases.

5. Creation proceeds from the eighth phase as below:



(1) Space was the eighth subtle manifestation which was, in fact, the first gross manifestation of the energy of maya.

(2) In the endless space, unlimited number of pockets of various sizes were created. They became the base of uncountable sub-universes. Within that unimaginably enormous and endless-like looking space, the ninth phase of maya (called vayu) was evolved which created a circular movement in the space itself, as if the entire space was in a circular motion from its central point.

(3) Then, all over in that space, subparticles evenly emerged. This was the tenth phase of mayic manifestation (agni).

(4) Then the subparticles and the particles annihilated to form hydrogen atoms. This was the eleventh phase of mayic manifestation (apah).

(5) Then gravity began to predominate and the basic structure of uncountable galaxies and their clusters (as scientists know) were gradually formed. This was the twelfth phase.

The ‘already existing motion’ in the space now made it look like the galaxies were moving away from each other. The speed of this motion of the space varied in different areas of this visible universe but with a perfectly controlled synchronization. (The topic of creation is further detailed in “The Divine Vision of Radha Krishn.”)


6. "When the galaxies begin to assume their normal shape, at that point Maha Vishnu creates a great number of Divinely celestial spaces in the galaxies and He enters into those spaces. He then produces one Brahma in each section who controls the creation of the sun and its planetary system. Thus, in every planetary system there is one Brahma who is called the creator. Prior to the creation of the earth planet, Brahma extends the celestial space and creates celestial abodes of gods and goddesses. One planetary system with its celestial abodes is called one brahmand. In this way there are a great number of brahmandas in one galaxy. Celestial abodes are invisible as they are in a different space (dimension)."

7. "Souls are already in the universe in their subtle form, a certain (uncountable) number of souls are transferred to each planetary system run by its own Brahma, and then, gradually Brahma produces those souls on the earth planet in their material bodies."

This model of the Universe, as delineated in Srimad Bhagavatam, raises some interesting questions:

1. If there are several Brahmas, are they also several hierarchies of Devas such as Indra, Rudra, Varuna and so on?

2. Is it that Brahama is not worshipped because he is only an agent of the Absolute Creator who is Vishnu?

3. Is it that Shiva is worshipped as a mighty God on par with Vishnu because he is the Absolute Destroyer and Regenerator of the Cosmos during the times of Pralaya?

Related links in Swamiji's Website are:

(1) The unbroken continuity of Indian civilization and its history
http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/1_the_unbroken_continuity.htm

(47) Creation of the universe and the development of life and civilization on the earth planet according to the Upnishads and the Bhagwatam
http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/47_creation_of.htm

(48) The exact calculations of the age of Brahma and the existing manvantar according to the Bhagwatam.
http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/48_the_exact_calculations.htm

(49) Actual age of the universe.
http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/49_actual_age.htm

Madhavan
30 September 2007, 11:20 AM
Namaste Saidevo,




I think that Swami Prakashanand Saraswati has the answers required in this thread in his Website http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/ which is a summary of his famous work of the same name. A glance at the articles 1, 47 to 53 in the Sitemap at http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/site_map.htm gives us following points based on his study of Srimad Bhagavatam, which is the authority on the subject of Creation.

1. There is only one Universe. It has several Brahmandas, each headed by a Brahma.

The Universe, as its name indicates, is the only Prapanja created; it is the only Cosmic manifestation comprising the sum total of all cosmic material energy. The term multiverse is only a hypothetical postulation by science, more in the nature of a meta-universe than an actual, existing one, whereas the Universe is physically observed by science, day in and day out.

The Brahmanda is a planetary system with its celestial abodes that are in different space (dimension). One galaxy has a great number of Brahmandas.

2. The Universe contains uncountable Galaxies (over a hundred billion, according to science). The Brahmandas are located inside the galaxies.

3. Vishnu, as the Supreme God of Creation uses three factors to start the process of creation: souls with their karmas, maya, time.

Souls are unlimited, infinitesimal 'life' forms, each having a subtle mind of their own. When they take a human body, the mind has its fullest growth, and thereafter their actions result in karma.

Maya (the cosmic power) is a lifeless miraculous energy or power. It has three Gunas: Tamas, Rajas, Satvic.

Time (kala) is an eternal energy like maya which is a strong force that starts the manifestation of the mayic attributes (which gradually become the universe), and then it keeps the universe moving forward until Maha Pralaya.

4. The souls with their karmas, maya and time are dormant in their current status inside God during Maha Pralaya and are activated by the will of God in the next cycle of creation.

"After certain subtle phases of evolution the first thing that comes into being is the endless empty space. There are seven phases of extremely subtle manifestations of maya that had already happened before the ‘space’ came into being." -- says Swamiji, but he does not explain what these phases are. Yajvan and others who are well versed in Srimad Bhagavatam may please explain these seven subtle phases.


These are good explanations. The creation phases are as follows:

1. Avyakta, also called axara is the seed from which all creation proceed, by the active will of Vishnu.

2. From the Avyakta is born mUlaprakriti, which is the universe, comprised of many brahmandas.

3. From mUlaprakriti, the mahat is born(for each brahmanda), which is the seed from which all jivas and jada have their origin.

4. From the mahat are born three ahamkAras, sAttvik, rajasik and tamasik.

5. From the sAttvika ahamkAra, mind is born.( kartA, doer)

6. From the combination of sAttvika ahamkAra and rajasik, indiyas (jnAna and karma) are born, ( kAryam, activity)

7. From the tAmasic ahamkAra, the subtle elements(tanmAtras) are born.( kAraNam, reason)






1. If there are several Brahmas, are they also several hierarchies of Devas such as Indra, Rudra, Varuna and so on?


Yes, definitely. There exist many gods in each brahmanda, who are knowledgeable only about their own brahmandas, while Vishnu knows about all brahmandas.



2. Is it that Brahama is not worshipped because he is only an agent of the Absolute Creator who is Vishnu?


No. We worship many gods like Indra, Vayu, Agni during all vedic rituals. So this cannot be the reason for Brahma being ignored.



3. Is it that Shiva is worshipped as a mighty God on par with Vishnu because he is the Absolute Destroyer and Regenerator of the Cosmos during the times of Pralaya?


Shiva is not like Brahma who is a created being. Shiva is just another name of Vishnu, that is to say, Shiva is Vishnu himself. (see Svet Up)

yajvan
30 September 2007, 01:25 PM
.

1. There is only one Universe. It has several Brahmandas, each headed by a Brahma.

Namaste Saideveo, Madhavan and EM (et.al)

This One Universe subject is a conversation we have taken pretty far on another string, it starts here and goes forward ( See what you think) http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=16319&postcount=27 . e.g. Uni + verse = Unity or a One Whole + diversity or the multiple expressions of this creation.

That said, saidevo, thank you for offering Swami Prakashaband's perspective on this matter. I have his book, The True History and Religion of India. Some good info.

Swamiji also offers some interesting views of this manifestion as he views history as a 155.52 trillion year view of Bharat-varsh. ( Chapt 4)
He also see Krsna's name as Krishn and does not include the 'a' at the end. This addition of 'a' makes it = to Radha. We see this coming back in writing, that is, dropping the a as in Ram vs. Rama, or Arjun vs. Arjuna, yog vs. yoga.
I can see how Ram became Rama, due to the total name of Ramachandra, and the a providing the transition to chandra.

Also - I want to thank you Madhavan and saidevo for the post... the notion of this particular string was to see if we could conceptually think of a different kind of universe based upon different mechanics and fundamental principles... that is, can we come up with another universal structure that was not based on cause-and-effect? Whether this is a level of creation that is working in this mode today is not a requirement.

That was the idea, just to poke around and see if one can think of a different operating system (OS).


pranams,

Madhavan
30 September 2007, 01:52 PM
Also - I want to thank you Madhavan and saidevo for the post... the notion of this particular string was to see if we could conceptually think of a different kind of universe based upon different mechanics and fundamental principles... that is, can we come up with another universal structure that was not based on cause-and-effect? Whether this is a level of creation that is working in this mode today is not a requirement.

That was the idea, just to poke around and see if one can think of a different operating system (OS).




Namaste,

The mahat or the buddhi in each brahmanda can take care of any variety that you seem to be anticipating. Each brahmanda could be entirely different from each other, in every possible way. Each Brahma is probably free to unveil his imagination his supreme power derived from the primevial source.

Our vedas probably only talk of the brahmanda we curently live in. And afterall, the goal of vedic teaching is to surmount this dualty rather that elaborate it in much more detail. It is entirely possible to conceive of other brahmandas without even ideas of space or time. Without vision, hearing and other sensory inputs we experience in our brahmanda. There could be an entirely different range of experience. With an ingenious organ such as the mind, any variety is possible.

yajvan
30 September 2007, 02:54 PM
Namaste,
Hari Om
~~~~~

The mahat or the buddhi in each brahmanda can take care of any variety that you seem to be anticipating. Each brahmanda could be entirely different from each other, in every possible way. Each Brahma is probably free to unveil his imagination his supreme power derived from the primevial source.

Our vedas probably only talk of the brahmanda we curently live in. And afterall, the goal of vedic teaching is to surmount this dualty rather that elaborate it in much more detail. It is entirely possible to conceive of other brahmandas without even ideas of space or time. Without vision, hearing and other sensory inputs we experience in our brahmanda. There could be an entirely different range of experience. With an ingenious organ such as the mind, any variety is possible.

NAmaste Madhavan,
Yes I see what you say... yet my pea brain is stuck with cause and effect. I think of other potentials and they do not pan out... you have any ideas of another mode? A cause with no effect means nothing gets accomplished... I bounce a ball and there is no returning the ball!

Lets say No time... ok that is fine. Yet is it still a cause and effect universe? Something happens there's a reaction - and no time has passed. That perhaps suggests there is no future karma. This looks interesting.

I am not stuck or fixated on this, just trying to in-vision other Brhamanda's and potentially new Modus Operandi, for the fun of it!

thanks for your contribution...

Madhavan
30 September 2007, 10:13 PM
NAmaste Madhavan,
Yes I see what you say... yet my pea brain is stuck with cause and effect. I think of other potentials and they do not pan out... you have any ideas of another mode? A cause with no effect means nothing gets accomplished... I bounce a ball and there is no returning the ball!

Lets say No time... ok that is fine. Yet is it still a cause and effect universe? Something happens there's a reaction - and no time has passed. That perhaps suggests there is no future karma. This looks interesting.

I am not stuck or fixated on this, just trying to in-vision other Brhamanda's and potentially new Modus Operandi, for the fun of it!

thanks for your contribution...

I would say that the triguNa is an essential component of any brahmanda. The sattva guNa provides the doer, tamas provides the cause( of action of the doer), and rajas is the effect. The evolutes of the triguNa could be dramatically different in each brahmanda, thus giving rise to a enormous variety in creation...including the examples you have cited, no bouncing of the ball...It is entirely conceivable - brahmandas without the ideas of space because space is an evolute of tamo guNa.

If we had no cause-effect relationship, how could it be possible for any soul to work out its karma. What would be the benefits of doing any sAdhana, if worship or meditation have no effect? What would be the meaning of such a brahmanda, if we are to suppose that the creator Brahma would always design a system that would also be favourable to the redemption of souls? There is no cause-effect relationship only in non dual realization, and will always exist in any other form of waking state.

Without cause and effect, I think creation cannot be there. Without rajo guNa there would be no evolution, and without tamo guNa there would be no dissolution. So both these are must if we assume that the brahmanda is non eternal. Without sattva guNa, there is no chance of obtaining tanumAnasi that is so essential to obtain jnAna. So, in order that brahmandas be non eternal, and that souls have a chance to obtain salvation, we need all the three guNas.

Let me know what you think...