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yajvan
28 September 2007, 12:08 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I thought to post some of these most insightful Siva Sutras¹.

Sri kanthanatha, an incarnation of Lord Shiva, appeared before the sage Vasugupta in a dream. On awakening the sage visited the desired spot that was offered in the dream and the particular stone turned upside down by his mere touch. He found the Sutras engraved on the big rock which is still known as 'samkaropala'.


I will add a few daily. thought it would be worth the read...sipping the wisdom a little at a time vs. listing them all out.


Caitanyamatma
1. Universal Consciousness is one's own nature.

Jnanam Bandhah
2. Knowing the individual consciousness as one's own nature
and not knowing the Universal Consciousness as one's
own nature, is bondage.

Yonivargah Kalasariram
3. Differentiated perception and the field of individual activities
are also bondage.


* Siva Sutras are From Swami Laksmanjoo and his work Shiva Sutras, The Supreme Awakening

[I]Nama Sivaya Somanath Naya


pranams,

yajvan
28 September 2007, 09:34 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Caitanyamatma
1. Universal Consciousness is one's own nature.

Jnanam Bandhah
2. Knowing the individual consciousness as one's own nature
and not knowing the Universal Consciousness as one's
own nature, is bondage.

Yonivargah Kalasariram
3. Differentiated perception and the field of individual activities
are also bondage.


Nama Sivaya Somanath Naya

Jnanadhisthanam Matrka
4. This three-fold bondage is attributable to and commanded by
the Universal Mother while she remains unknown.

Udyamao Bhairava
5. To get rid of this triple bondage,a sudden flash of transcendental consciousness is identical with Bhairava*.

Sakticakrasandhane visvasambarah
6. With deep contemplation on the wheel of energies, the whole differentiated Universe comes to an end.



Nama Sivaya


* Bhairava or भैरव is considered terrible or frightful, the fierce manifested personality of Siva associated with annihilation. Yet for a more descriptive view on this matter see HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=17892&postcount=52

pranams,

yajvan
28 September 2007, 12:23 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Jnanadhisthanam Matrka
4. This three-fold bondage is attributable to and commanded by
the Universal Mother while she remains unknown.

Udyamao Bhairava
5. To get rid of this triple bondage,a sudden flash of transcendental consciousness is identical with Bhairava*.

Sakticakrasandhane visvasambarah
6. With deep contemplation on the wheel of energies, the whole differentiated Universe comes to an end.

Nama Sivaya
* Bhairava or भैरव = "Terrible" or "Frightful, is the fierce manifested personality Siva associated with annihilation


Jagratsvapna susuptabhede turyabhogasambhavah
7. Such a Yogi, who has accomplished this stage, experiences Turiya
(the 4th) in other three states also - viz. Jagrat (wakefulness), Svapna (dream) and Susapti (deep sleep)


Turiya HDF references:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

Nothing transcends Turya
Brahmvidvarishta is non-different from Turya
Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization) is turiyatit chetana (sustained turya), and is experinced by the native; a purely subjective experince.
Turiyatit chetana is not personality development, yet ones level of Being completely changes.pranams,

yajvan
28 September 2007, 06:11 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~




Jagratsvapna susuptabhede turyabhogasambhavah
7. Such a Yogi, who has accomplished this stage, experiences Turiya
(the 4th) in other three states also - viz. Jagrat (wakefulness), Svapna (dream) and Susapti (deep sleep)


Turiya HDF references:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

Nothing transcends Turya
Brahmvidvarishta is non-different from Turya
Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization) is turiyatit chetana (sustained turya), and is experinced by the native; a purely subjective experince.
Turiyatit chetana is not personality development, yet ones level of Being completely changes. Jnanam Jagrat
8. Common knowledge (arising out of differentiation) - constitutes Jagrat (wakefulness).

Svapna Vikalpah
9. Individual differentiated knowledge in the recess of one's own mind is Svapna (dream).

Aviveko Mayasausuptam
10. Loss of discrimination in the field of unawareness is Susapti (deep sleep)


Tritayabhokta viresah
11. The one who has digested (assimilated) all these three states in Turya is the Lord of heroes or master of his senses.

Om Haraye Namah

Eastern Mind
28 September 2007, 07:32 PM
Yajvan: Just a question: What particular Siva sutras are you quoting from? agamas? Somewhere else? I am not familiar with all this. From your original post, re 'incarnation of Siva' in Saiva Siddhanta, there is no such thing. Siva-realised soul, yes. Again, perhaps its just in wording. Certainly 'incarnation' is not the same as 'avatar' is it? My understanding is that 'avatar' is a Vaishnava concept. Siva does not come to Earth in a human form, other than as Satguru. Thanks for any clarification Aum Namashivaya

yajvan
28 September 2007, 08:10 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Yajvan: Just a question: What particular Siva sutras are you quoting from? agamas? Somewhere else? I am not familiar with all this. From your original post, re 'incarnation of Siva' in Saiva Siddhanta, there is no such thing. Siva-realised soul, yes. Again, perhaps its just in wording. Certainly 'incarnation' is not the same as 'avatar' is it? My understanding is that 'avatar' is a Vaishnava concept. Siva does not come to Earth in a human form, other than as Satguru. Thanks for any clarification Aum Namashivaya

Namaste EM,
Yes I see your point. Perhaps it is just symantics or words.
FYI: There are 77 sutras to the set.
This may help, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Sutras_of_Vasugupta

That said,

Shiva sutras are believed to be a Sivopanisat ( Siva-upanishad); a compendium containing secret doctrine revealed by Lord Shiva. It is stated this was Srikanthanatha, Lord Shiva, some say an incarnation, some say a Siddha, that came to sage Vasugupta in a dream and directed him to the Sutas mentioned. This was 9th century if my memory serves me correctly. This is from my studies.

Also , how do you then view Adi Shankara? Was he Siva on this earth? And what of Manesha Panchakam?
Sri Sankara was walking towards the temple of Lord Viswanatha in Varanasi along with his disciples. A sweeper was walking towards him on the same street. Sri Sankara asked the sweeper to move away from his path. He did not. The sweeper ask Shankra 5 questions. This is the Manesha Panchakam. The sweeper is Siva.

How do you view Adi Shankra and the sweeper? Siva? Incarnation? And what of Mahadeva in the Mahabharata when He took the form of a Kirara and ended up fighting Arjuna, then gifting him with weapons i.e.pasupada.

I am intersted to hear your opinions on this...

thank you for the post.

Om Namah Nilakanthaya Namo Namah



pranams.

Eastern Mind
28 September 2007, 10:31 PM
Yajvan:

Re: my opinions .. Well. they are from a western adoptives.. Saiva Siddhanta from English translations, so nowhere close to your scriptural knowledge

Shankara: a great philosopher that contributed much to Indian thought, but not a pure Saiva..not sure, but didn't he found the Smarta sampradaya.. you see, I did study all this a long time back, but may have since forgotten details

Siva: God.. all, and in all, the Cause, the Primal Soul, The Energy flowing through the universe, and more.. the Great Meditator (as Dakshinamurthi)

Mahabharata: A great epic containing lots of wisdom, but needs to be read from the symbolic point of view (I've only read a condensed and probably poor translation, and that too was a long time ago.. before my finding my sampradaya)

Incarnation: I see it as 'avatar' but like we agreed to before, I can accept other translations like 'siddhar'
Hope this helps you out.
Please return the favour and tell me of your sampradaya, philosophical leanings etc. although from reading your other posts, I have a sense already
Aum Namashivaya

yajvan
29 September 2007, 12:00 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Yajvan:

Re: my opinions .. Well. they are from a western adoptives.. Saiva Siddhanta from English translations, so nowhere close to your scriptural knowledge

Shankara: a great philosopher that contributed much to Indian thought, but not a pure Saiva..not sure, but didn't he found the Smarta sampradaya.. you see, I did study all this a long time back, but may have since forgotten details

Siva: God.. all, and in all, the Cause, the Primal Soul, The Energy flowing through the universe, and more.. the Great Meditator (as Dakshinamurthi)

Mahabharata: A great epic containing lots of wisdom, but needs to be read from the symbolic point of view (I've only read a condensed and probably poor translation, and that too was a long time ago.. before my finding my sampradaya)

Incarnation: I see it as 'avatar' but like we agreed to before, I can accept other translations like 'siddhar' Hope this helps you out.
Please return the favour and tell me of your sampradaya, philosophical leanings etc. although from reading your other posts, I have a sense already Aum Namashivaya

Namate EM,
thank you for taking the time to reply....

My teachings, readings, sampradaya, and parampara (from Jyotish) are an interesting mix.

Perhaps it would be good to lay out some of this on the 'personal profile' or introdiction pages we have here on HDF. As mine has many teachers, POVs, gurus, and readings over the years., yet I get a bit queasy discussing this.

My firm conviction is the realization of Brahman. I take delight in Visnu and Siva, Yet Mother Divine as Saraswati and Lakshmi are never far away from me in my thoughts. I can never remember a time in my life when I was not thinking of Him. My teachers are Smarta and Vishnava, so I have the best the world can offer, as I am blessed not having to take sides as I see no differnence.

I have had the opportunity and been blessed with several meditative sadhanas and shaki-put. Without the touch of turiya, the silence, it is all for naught. As you have mentioned , it is all talk. Yet this turiya is what makes it all real. It is this turya that brings the blessings... as for me, I know little, but rejoice in being a student of life - this is His gift to me.

There is much to know...yet enlightenment is so simple, so delicate and for some, may be just one thought away.

Rishi Angiras informs us, This Atman cannot be obtained by much study of the Ved or intelligence or much learning. He whom the SELF chooses, by him the SELF can be gained. To him this Atman reveals Its true nature. [Mundakopanishad 3.2.6]


pranams,

Agnideva
29 September 2007, 01:02 AM
Namaste EM and Yajvan,

If I may intervene in this discussion … there are two major topics here: (1) Siva Sutras and (2) Saivism and incarnation doctrine. Both these topics are of much interest to me personally, and I would like to add my two cents on both :). Since I’m limited by time today, I will post only on the Siva Sutras.

Siva Sutras

First, we should realize that there are actually two sets of Siva Sutras. The first one is a set of 14 sutras in the beginning of Sage Panini’s work on Sanskrit grammar (400 BCE?). These sutras, also known as Maheshvara sutras, are a clever rearrangement of the Sanskrit alphabet and provide the rules for grammar. According to legend, these sutras were written by Panini upon mystically hearing the beats of Siva-Nataraja’s damaru (hourglass-shaped drum). Sage Nandinatha (250 BCE?) wrote a commentary on these sutras called Nandikeshvara Kashika explaining their philosophical meaning from a monistic Saivite perspective. This work explains in the briefest of manner how everything a to z (or in Sanskrit a to ha) is Siva’s manifestation.

The second set of Siva Sutras (under discussion here) are those related to Kashmir Saivism, and were revealed to Sage Vasugupta (ca. 800 CE). These Siva Sutras are based on the monistic teachings of the Saiva Agamas (mostly the Bhairava Agamas). Kashmir Saivas believe that Siva Himself had revealed the Siva Sutras to put an end to the dualistic interpretations of the Agamas. There are two legends about this revelation. The first and more popular legend says that Siva (here called Srikanthanatha, see below) had appeared in a dream to Vasugupta, and revealed to him the location of the Siva Sutras on a rock. The next morning, Vasugupta went to that location and found the 77 Siva Sutras etched there. A second, less popular legend says that Vasugupta was taught the Siva Sutras by a powerful Siddha yogi. Either way, the Siva Sutras are traced back to Vasugupta.

Kashmir Saiva tradition says that with the coming of the kaliyuga, all of the great sages disappeared and the ancient Saiva Agama knowledge originally taught by Siva Himself was completely lost. So, to enlighten humanity once again, Siva appeared as Srikanthanatha near Mt. Kailash. Here, He taught the Siddha-Sage Durvasa the three Saiva Agama doctrines of monism, monistic-dualism, and dualism, and then disappeared. It is the lineage started by Sage Durvasa then that spread the teachings of the Saiva Agamas in the kaliyuga. Srikanthanatha therefore is the name and form of Siva in the kaliyuga as the Revealer of all knowledge, including that received by Vasugupta.

As for Siva Sutras, they are foundational to Kashmir Saivism, and very highly regarded in that school. Saivism, in general, gives all its Agama texts the status of shruti, and considers them of equal authority as the Vedas. In that, Siva Sutras are also considered part of the Agama canon. The Siva Sutras are well known and used by other schools of Saivism as well, but not as a foundational text. In Saiva Siddhanta, the pluralistic school of Meykanda Devar does not generally use the Siva Sutras because its monistic teachings are contrary to their pluralism.

Aum Namah Shivaya.
A.

yajvan
29 September 2007, 09:36 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste AD (et.al)

Thank you for your post. What you write is my understanding and study.
If one was interested in the 14 sutras or the roots of sanskrit grammer by Panini, also called Maheshvara Sutras,consider this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Sutra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Sutra).



Back to the 77 Siva Sutras in progress.

Vismayo yogabhumikah
12. The Yogic powers here (in this state of being) comprise indescribable astonishment (wonder).

ieeha saktir uma kamari
13. For such a Yogi, any desire is identical with the Supreme Energy of Lord Siva and hence his desire cannot be checked by any power.

Drsyam sariram
14. For such a Yogi, even his own body becomes an extraneous object or the totality of extraneous objects is (constitute) his own Universal Body.


For those that are following along on this. The wisdom, offering and implications of the above sutras makes ones heart swell.

In this state of accomplishment, this Brahmvidvarishta or Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization), ones actions are His actions. This 'devotion' is then 7x24x365 because one becomes the extention of Him. One has nothing to achieve, all has been achieved. This is the complete fulfillment of Krsna's teaching of the Gita.


Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya

pranams,

satay
01 October 2007, 10:29 AM
namaste yajvan,
Thank you for starting this thread on siva sutras.

May I request you to provide the source/translation you are using as reference (i.e. book(s), author(s), website(s)) for the reader so that they can get more information if needed.

Personally for me, I am always interested in not only in the translated works of someone but in checking out the author's background and his or her other works. This applies to everything I get time to read.

Thanks yajvan!

yajvan
01 October 2007, 11:16 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Personally for me, I am always interested in not only in the translated works of someone but in checking out the author's background and his or her other works. This applies to everything I get time to read.

Thanks yajvan!

Namate satay,
for most of the Siva Sutra's offered it is from Swami Lakshmana Joo. Not a familiar name, yet his wisdom is worthy of note.

Swami Lakshmana Joo , on this earth May 9, 1907 and left September, 1991.

A practitioner of Tantric Monism of Kashmir known as the Trika system, he also spent time with some of the luminaries e.g. Ramana Maharshi at the Ramanachramam., and a very strong family circle of sadhus.

His works include "Lectures on Practice and Discipline in Kashmir Saivism." "The Kashmir Saivism - supreme secret" , Siva Sutras, and and the like.

You will also see my comments on the Sutras - these comments are inspired by my past readings of the the Masters as it is they that stimulate the thoughts of the deepest wisdom for the sadhu in study.

If one wanted more info on this, Google Siva Sutras as I am trying to take the best-of-the-best [ as I see it] . No deviations to the sutras, but perhaps different perspectives. On that note, Paramahamsa Nithyananda-ji talks of a few sutras on posts you can find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFMDaHVdS7I
His information is practical and is from the lips of a muni. His insights are worthy of the time to listen and ponder.

I find Swami Lakshmana Joo's work succinct and insightful and core to the Siva Sutra posts. I hope in some way the information is valuable and sparks one to go and pursue the Sutras and other readings of this nature.


pranams,

satay
01 October 2007, 11:25 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
If one wanted more info on this, Google Siva Sutras as I am trying to take the best-of-the-best [ as I see it] . No deviations to the sutras, but perhaps different perspectives. On that note, Paramahamsa Nithyananda-ji talks of a few sutras on posts you can find here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFMDaHVdS7I
His information is practical and is from the lips of a muni. His insights are worthy of the time to listen and ponder.

I find Swami Lakshmana Joo's work succinct and insightful and core to the Siva Sutra posts. I hope in some way the information is valuable and sparks one to go and pursue the Sutras and other readings of this nature.


pranams,

Thanks Yajvan for the link to the video and the author.

yajvan
01 October 2007, 06:40 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Vismayo yogabhumikah
12. The Yogic powers here (in this state of being) comprise indescribable astonishment (wonder).

ieeha saktir uma kamari
13. For such a Yogi, any desire is identical with the Supreme Energy of Lord Siva and hence his desire cannot be checked by any power.

Drsyam sariram
14. For such a Yogi, even his own body becomes an extraneous object or the totality of extraneous objects is (constitute) his own Universal Body.


For those that are following along on this. The wisdom, offering and implications of the above sutras makes ones heart swell.

In this state of accomplishment, this Brahmvidvarishta or Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization), ones actions are His actions. This 'devotion' is then 7x24x365 because one becomes the extention of Him. One has nothing to achieve, all has been achieved. This is the complete fulfillment of Krsna's teaching of the Gita.


Back to the 77 Siva Sutras in progress.

Hirdaye cittasanighattad drsyasvapadarsanam
15. By establishing one's mind in the heart-the Universal Consciousness-the whole world of perception appears as one's own nature.

Suddha­tattva­sandhanad va apasusaktih
16. Or by establishing uninterrupted awareness of Pure Supreme Nature, the energy of Shiva is experienced.

Vitarka atmajnanam
17. For such a realized soul, any ordinary thought becomes the means of realizing one's own self.


This one stitch of the 15th sutra is a very profound. The environment, the surroundings, all become an extention of your experience.
Some of you may be blessed with a glimpse of this... The 'blessing' is putting one foot in the bath water at a time.
My teacher has said the contrast of what one is used compared to this new view is stiking.

Paramahamsa Nithyananda-ji talks of this and his experience. My friend had this experince for 4 months 7x24x365.
The post of this experince: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1524


Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya

Agnideva
01 October 2007, 07:00 PM
Namaskar Satay, Yajvan,


for most of the Siva Sutra's offered it is from Swami Lakshmana Joo. Not a familiar name, yet his wisdom is worthy of note.
Swami Lakshmana Joo , on this earth May 9, 1907 and left September, 1991.
A practitioner of Tantric Monism of Kashmir known as the Trika system, he also spent time with some of the luminaries e.g. Ramana Maharshi at the Ramanachramam., and a very strong family circle of sadhus.
Swami Lakshman Joo Maharaj is actually quite well known and one of the most highly respected Saivite gurus of the 20th century. He was the very last Guru through direct disciplinic succession of Kashmir Saivism straight from the line of the ancient masters of this school. His speeches, his works and teachings can be considered the final authority in Kashmir Saivism. Before Swami Lakshman Joo was “discovered” it was thought that the line of Kashmir Saiva masters had long since ended. Swami Lakshman Joo did much to revive this ancient philosophy, both in India and in the West. It is in large part due to his efforts that Kashmir Saivism still lives and thrives today. Although he initiated many people during his lifetime, he did not appoint anyone as his sole successor. A few months before his Maha Samadhi, he visited the US and founded the Universal Shaiva Fellowship (http://universalshaivafellowship.org/) in California.

http://www.koausa.org/Saints/LakshmanJoo/Lakshman1.jpg
Sivacarya Ishvarsvarup Swami Lakshman Joo Maharaj

One may read about Swami Lakshman Joo at these sites:

http://www.koausa.org/Saints/LakshmanJoo/article2.html
http://www.koausa.org/Saints/LakshmanJoo/article1.html
http://www.ishwarashramtrust.com/index.php


Personally for me, I am always interested in not only in the translated works of someone but in checking out the author's background and his or her other works. This applies to everything I get time to read.

Yes Satay, this is always a good practice. You can look up Swami Lakshman Joo's background in the above links. Also, you can find the entire set of his translation of the Siva Sutras at these sites:

http://ikashmir.net/religion/shivsutras.html (http://ikashmir.net/religion/shivsutras.html)
http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/usf/teachings_02.html

There are various other translations available as well. Dr. Subhash Kak’s translation is available through this site (pdf file):

http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/shiva.pdf

Aum Namah Shivaya,
A.

Arjuna
03 October 2007, 07:52 PM
My understanding is that 'avatar' is a Vaishnava concept. Siva does not come to Earth in a human form, other than as Satguru.

Actually this is true, at least in regard of Agamic shaivism.

BTW original verse of Gita re incarnation of Lord goes like "tadAtmAMshaM sRijAmyaham" and not popularly accepted "tadAtmAnam". Lord Himself never incarnates in any single limited being, but He acts through Gurus and siddhas.

Arjuna
03 October 2007, 08:01 PM
Swami Lakshman Joo Maharaj is actually quite well known and one of the most highly respected Saivite gurus of the 20th century. He was the very last Guru through direct disciplinic succession of Kashmir Saivism straight from the line of the ancient masters of this school. His speeches, his works and teachings can be considered the final authority in Kashmir Saivism.

Namaste,

While Swami Lakshmanji is indeed "quite well known" he isn't "the very last Guru" of KSh and his works verily cannot be considered "the final authority"!
There is only one "final authority" - Shiva. In regard of jnAna He manifests in three aspects - as Sattarka, Sadguru and Sadagama. And Swami Lakshmanji is Sadguru only for his disciples and not for everyone in every lineage.

If at all we speak of some "final authority" in KSh in sense of greatest Guru, the only figure whom we can suggest is Sri Abhinavagupta.

yajvan
03 October 2007, 09:06 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste,

While Swami Lakshmanji is indeed "quite well known" he isn't "the very last Guru" of KSh and his works verily cannot be considered "the final authority"!
There is only one "final authority" - Shiva. In regard of jnAna He manifests in three aspects - as Sattarka, Sadguru and Sadagama. And Swami Lakshmanji is Sadguru only for his disciples and not for everyone in every lineage.

If at all we speak of some "final authority" in KSh in sense of greatest Guru, the only figure whom we can suggest is Sri Abhinavagupta.

Namaste Arjuna,
thank you for pointing this out... there is only one final.
नमः शिवाय च शिवतराय च
namah śivāya ca śivatarāya ca


Now there was this comment of Destruction... a word used at times for Siva's greatness. Over time one gets used to this , but dissolution is more adept a meaning IMHO... I am not correcting anyone here, just my orientation and POV based on my studies.

Yet when I think of dissolution I think of complete annihilation, complete absorption back into the Absolute.

Can you think of anything today made of man that can do this? Even an atom bomb only converts Mass to energy [ E=Mc²]. The energy remains in this Universe as heat, or particles or the like. and for me this is Destruction.

Dissolution is the complete removal/absorbson of matter+energy back to its source... Prakriti returns to aksara. Back to Ajari. This is one aspect of Siva.


Om Namo Rudraya


pranams,

yajvan
04 October 2007, 11:52 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Back to the 77 Siva Sutras in progress.

Hirdaye cittasanighattad drsyasvapadarsanam
15. By establishing one's mind in the heart-the Universal Consciousness-the whole world of perception appears as one's own nature.

Suddha-tattva-sandhanad va apasusaktih
16. Or by establishing uninterrupted awareness of Pure Supreme Nature, the energy of Shiva is experienced.

Vitarka atmajnanam
17. For such a realized soul, any ordinary thought becomes the means of realizing one's own self.


This one stitch of the 15th sutra is a very profound. The environment, the surroundings, all become an extention of your experience.
Some of you may be blessed with a glimpse of this... The 'blessing' is putting one foot in the bath water at a time.
My teacher has said the contrast of what one is used compared to this new view is stiking.

Paramahamsa Nithyananda-ji talks of this and his experience. My friend had this experince for 4 months 7x24x365.
The post of this experince: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1524

Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya

We Continue ...

Lokanandah Samadhisukham
18. His being in the ecstatic state of Samadhi bestows bliss and happiness to the whole humanity or the totality of enjoyment in the universe constitutes (or comprises) his ecstatic state of Samadhi.

Saktisandhane sarirotpattih
l9. By putting (concentrating) one's mind on Universal Energy, body internal or external, is formed by his mere will. (Such power is attainable by him in two other states also viz. dream and deep sleep).

Bhutasandhana-bhutaprthaktva-visvasamghattah
20. Such a Yogi is capable of

helping humanity unbounded by space and time
casting off his body for specified time­periods, and
manifesting his body at various places simultaneously, by remaining in God consciousness.Note the potential for the muni: To assist humanity. But why so? Humanity-society is an extention of him-her SELF. There is nothing that is not Him. And one does Univeral Dharma, Univeral actions in this state. He/She is completely supported by all the laws of nature, all the devata.

Yet one asks to assist humanity to do what? to realize their true nature Brahma-rasa. And for samanvaya, harmony in them, the individual, and in the family of man.

Now, my teacher says, since the muni is completely free, s/he can do what ever one likes... for some they may withdraw, for others they may engage in society... The Jivanmukti is at liberty to choose.

Aumnamasivaya

Agnideva
05 October 2007, 07:37 AM
Namaskar Arjuna,

If at all we speak of some "final authority" in KSh in sense of greatest Guru, the only figure whom we can suggest is Sri Abhinavagupta.

Yes, you are indeed quite correct to point this out. "Final authority" was a bad choice of words on my part, in retrospect. Perhaps to say that his works were authoritarian was sufficient. My point here was that Swami Lakshman Joo is a respected Guru in the tradition. There is no doubt that Acharya Abhinavagupta was the greatest Guru in the tradition.

Regards,
A.

yajvan
06 October 2007, 02:07 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Lokanandah Samadhisukham
18. His being in the ecstatic state of Samadhi bestows bliss and happiness to the whole humanity or the totality of enjoyment in the universe constitutes (or comprises) his ecstatic state of Samadhi.

Saktisandhane sarirotpattih
l9. By putting (concentrating) one's mind on Universal Energy, body internal or external, is formed by his mere will. (Such power is attainable by him in two other states also viz. dream and deep sleep).

Bhutasandhana-bhutaprthaktva-visvasamghattah
20. Such a Yogi is capable of
helping humanity unbounded by space and time
casting off his body for specified time periods, and
manifesting his body at various places simultaneously, by remaining in God consciousness.


Note the potential for the muni: To assist humanity. But why so? Humanity-society is an extention of him-her SELF. There is nothing that is not Him. And one does Univeral Dharma, Univeral actions in this state. He/She is completely supported by all the laws of nature, all the devata.
Yet one asks to assist humanity to do what? to realize their true nature Brahma-rasa. And for samanvaya, harmony in them, the individual, and in the family of man.
Now, my teacher says, since the muni is completely free, s/he can do what ever one likes... for some they may withdraw, for others they may engage in society... The Jivanmukti is at liberty to choose.
Aumnamasivaya


We Continue ...
Suddhavidyodayaccakresatvasiddhih
21. When such a yogi abstains from such powers, he attains lordship over the wheel of Universal Energies through the rise of Pure knowledge.


Mahahradanusandhanan mantraviryanubhavah
22. By contemplating on Supreme Ocean, Self experience of the Universal occurs.


Sutra 22 completes the 1st section called the First Awakening
some call this Section I- Universal consciousness

The next section, The Second Awaking or Section II The Emergence Of Iinnate Knowledge, has 10 sutras. This will start with the next post.

Arjuna
07 October 2007, 12:27 PM
My point here was that Swami Lakshman Joo is a respected Guru in the tradition. There is no doubt that Acharya Abhinavagupta was the greatest Guru in the tradition.

Namaste Agnideva,

There is no doubt in that Swami Lakshmanji was famous and respected. However it isn't an established fact that he was a Siddha (and thus could be an authority in full sense, as Sadguru).

Swami Lakshman studied sanskrit with late B. N. Pandit, a great scholar of Kashmiri Shaivism. And in Pandit's words, Lakshman was "very shanta", but not someone really outstanding (in fact, he considered Sharika to be really powerfull among three).
(My view on Swami Lakshman is similar to Pandit's, that's why i refer his words.)

yajvan
07 October 2007, 06:30 PM
हरिॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~




We Continue ...
Suddhavidyodayaccakresatvasiddhih
21. When such a yogi abstains from such powers, he attains lordship over the wheel of Universal Energies through the rise of Pure knowledge.


Mahahradanusandhanan mantraviryanubhavah
22. By contemplating on Supreme Ocean, Self experience of the Universal occurs.


Sutra 22 completes the 1st section called the First Awakening
some call this Section I- Universal consciousness.

The next section, The Second Awaking or Section II The Emergence Of Iinnate Knowledge, has 10 sutras.

Cittam mantra
1. Here (in Saktopaya) by intensive awareness the mind of a yogi becomes Mantra.

Prayatnan Sadhakah
2. The cause of attaining this Mantra is one's own effort.

Vidyasarira-satta mantrarahasyam
3. The state of totality of knowledge is the secret of Mantra

This notion is in Saktopaya, meditating in the heart area. This is not the physical heart; it is ones center. The sadhu/yogi sees mantra arising from the depths of Consciousness itself. A place where all the nadi's come together and are distributed throghout the body.

The effort expended is ones own intent, ones will. this is the effort discussed in sutra number 2.


Om Nama Sivaya


pranams,

yajvan
08 October 2007, 05:06 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~


The next section, The Second Awaking or Section II The Emergence Of Iinnate Knowledge, has 10 sutras.

Cittam mantra
1. Here (in Saktopaya) by intensive awareness the mind of a yogi becomes Mantra.

Prayatnan Sadhakah
2. The cause of attaining this Mantra is one's own effort.

Vidyasarira­satta mantrarahasyam
3. The state of totality of knowledge is the secret of Mantra

This notion is in Saktopaya, meditating in the heart area. This is not the physical heart; it is ones center. The sadhu/yogi sees mantra arising from the depths of Consciousness itself. A place where all the nadi's come together and are distributed throghout the body.

The effort expended is ones own intent, ones will. this is the effort discussed in sutra number 2.

pranams,

We continue...

Grabhe cittavikaso visistavidyasvapnah
4. When a yogi's mind remains satisfied in cosmic powers, his Samadhi is as good as ordinary dreaming state.

Vidyasamutthane svabhavike khecari sivavastha
5. At the rise of natural (pure) Supreme Knowledge, the State of Shiva, residing in the Ether(akasha) of God­ Consciousness, is attained.

Gururupayah
6. For such attainment, the means is the Master, the Guru.


Om Nama Sivaya



pranams

yajvan
13 October 2007, 08:36 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~


Grabhe cittavikaso visistavidyasvapnah
4. When a yogi's mind remains satisfied in cosmic powers, his Samadhi is as good as ordinary dreaming state.

Vidyasamutthane svabhavike khecari sivavastha
5. At the rise of natural (pure) Supreme Knowledge, the State of Shiva, residing in the Ether(akasha) of God­ Consciousness, is attained.

Gururupayah
6. For such attainment, the means is the Master, the Guru.



We continue...

Matrkacakrasambodhah
7. When the master is pleased, the disciple attains the knowledge of the wheel of Universal Mother.

Sariram havih
8. For such attainment a yogi has to offer all his three bodies of wakefulness, dreaming and dreamlessness as oblations into the fire of Universal GodConsciousness.

Jnanam aunam
9. For him the differentiated knowledge is the food he assimilates into undifferentiated knowledge or the undifferentiated knowledge constitutes his food yielding him fullness and peace in his own nature.

Vidyasamhare tadutthasvapna-darsanam
10. By stepping out of his own nature of true knowledge, at the time of entering into God consciousness, i.e. Turya, he ill-fatally
enters into dreaming state.



Paramahamsa Nithyananda muni nicely frames the Siva Sutras for our consideration....its worth watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiRdTAam-7s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiRdTAam-7s)
10 min Discussion on Siva Sutras



Om Nama Sivaya

yajvan
14 October 2007, 09:21 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Matrkacakrasambodhah
7. When the master is pleased, the disciple attains the knowledge of the wheel of Universal Mother.

Sariram havih
8. For such attainment a yogi has to offer all his three bodies of wakefulness, dreaming and dreamlessness as oblations into the fire of Universal GodConsciousness.

Jnanam aunam
9. For him the differentiated knowledge is the food he assimilates into undifferentiated knowledge or the undifferentiated knowledge constitutes his food yielding him fullness and peace in his own nature.

Vidyasamhare tadutthasvapna-darsanam
10. By stepping out of his own nature of true knowledge, at the time of entering into God consciousness, i.e. Turya, he ill-fatally
enters into dreaming state


This begins the 3rd and final section, Called the Third Awakening , composed of 45 sutras.

Atma cittam
1. Here (in Anavaopaya) mind is the nature of individual being.

Jnanambandhah
2. Differentiated knowledge of pain and pleasure is bondage.

Kaladinam tattvanam avivekomaya
3. Ignorance of the essence of Universal Action and Universal Knowledge is illusion-the Maya.


In sutra 1 , anavaopaya is 'atomic means'. If we take apart the work
we get anava or impurity of minuteness, a stain. That is the SELF is
as if it is limited and veiled into constraits , withholding its true nature.
And opaya is upaya - a technique, a path. So it anava+upaya is the path of SELF limitation.

Sutra 3 is of interest. We have discussed maya on other posts... Here the notion is straight forward. Not knowing the truth of satyam and how actions are performed is the illusion. Who really acts? And what of this knowledge? Not book knowledge. Pure knowledge or the SELF, of Being, Bhuma and the wholeness, undifferentiated consciousness.



Om Nama Sivaya

yajvan
17 October 2007, 06:10 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Atma cittam
1. Here (in Anavaopaya) mind is the nature of individual being.

Jnanambandhah
2. Differentiated knowledge of pain and pleasure is bondage.

Kaladinam tattvanam avivekomaya
3. Ignorance of the essence of Universal Action and Universal Knowledge is illusion-the Maya.



we continue....

Sarire samharah kalanam
4. So one has to absorb the individuality of principles (Tattvas) in one's own body successively, i.e., absorb the five elements into five tanmatras, those in turn into the five organs and finally integrate them in the Supreme God­Consciousness.

Nadi samharabhutagaya bhutakaivalya bhutaprthaktvani
5. A yogi must develop the power of absorbing prana and apana into Susumna-the middle path of Lordship over five elements, of isolating one's own self from the five elements and residing in the field beyond the five elements.

Mohavarnat Siddhih
6. Such powers appear only when the veil of ignorance falls in the way of entering into Pure God­Consciousness.




Om Nama Sivaya


pranams,

yajvan
19 October 2007, 05:22 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~





This begins the 3rd and final section, Called the Third Awakening , composed of 45 sutras.



Let me as me a question! yajvan, why are there 3 sections ( triad), why not just one? or 5 or 9 ?

According to this wonderful knowledge of Kasmir Saivism, it's recognized there are 3 upayas (techniques or skillful means; in jyotish we call a upayae a remedy).

According to Ksemaraja, who comments on Siva Sutra Vimarsini, from which Swami Lakshman joo takes his work, these 3 parts are reflected in the 3 sections. That is....

According to Ksemaraja, the main sisya of the muni Abjinavagupata, the great Kasmir Saivaite saint of the 10 century, the 3 sections of the Siva Sutras align to unfolding/traveling from individual consciousness to Unity/Universal Consciousness.

Well that is not so interesting ( or is it? ). These 3 upayas are sambhavopaya, saktopaya and anavopaya. In the Sutra's layout, the highest level comes first, followed by 2nd and 3rd levels.

The great sage Abjinavagupata defines sambhavopaya as the upaya wherein the sadhu-native achieves entry [ some call this samavesa ] into the Supreme Consciousness, just by the Grace of the Guru, and since the Guru is Siva's extension, one can say by the Grace of Lord Siva. This is pure Grace, without having to adopt any processes, practices (dhyana, etc).

Next is saktopaya, and the upaya gains samavesa [ attaining Divine Union, attaining the Original position, this Unity Consciousness ]through contemplation of mental objects that cannot be spoken of or recited.

Last is anavopaya and the upaya where the entry or samavesa , occurs through various techniques, meditations, recitations, breath techniques and various mantra.

According to my studies Abjinavagupata-ji derived this wisdom from Malinvijaya Tantra. He says the aspirient, depending his ability should always try for the highest first.

Like that, the Siva Sutras are laid out with the highest first, being offered first. Followed by 2nd and 3rd methodologies.

It makes perfect sense that the first sutra then is caitanyamatma. The reality of everything is Supreme Consciousness. Note it starts at the highest level of Reality one could consider... no maya, or gunas, or birth-to-rebirth, and all that... just the pure fact that all THIS is THAT.


more on these 3 upayas at HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18339&postcount=4

Om Nama Sivaya

pranams,

yajvan
21 October 2007, 09:07 AM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Sarire samharah kalanam
4. So one has to absorb the individuality of principles (Tattvas) in one's own body successively, i.e., absorb the five elements into five tanmatras, those in turn into the five organs and finally integrate them in the Supreme God­Consciousness.

Nadi samharabhutagaya bhutakaivalya bhutaprthaktvani
5. A yogi must develop the power of absorbing prana and apana into Susumna-the middle path of Lordship over five elements, of isolating one's own self from the five elements and residing in the field beyond the five elements.

Mohavarnat Siddhih
6. Such powers appear only when the veil of ignorance falls in the way of entering into Pure God­Consciousness.

pranams,


we continue...

Mohajayad anantabhogat sahajavidyajayah
7. By obtaining victory over such an illusion of cosmic powers and by enjoying the state of limitless being, the Pure and Supreme Knowledge manifests.

Jagrat dvittya karah
8. For him the state of wakefulness (Jagrat) is secondary (beam) of God-Consciousness.

Nartaka alma
9. For him, the actor, who plays in the drama of Universe, is his own self.


Rangontaratma
10. Movement attributed in this totality of Cosmic Dance, is nothing other than the Supreme Being.



Om Nama Sivaya

pranams,

yajvan
22 October 2007, 05:23 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Mohajayad anantabhogat sahajavidyajayah
7. By obtaining victory over such an illusion of cosmic powers and by enjoying the state of limitless being, the Pure and Supreme Knowledge manifests.

Jagrat dvittya karah
8. For him the state of wakefulness (Jagrat) is secondary (beam) of God-Consciousness.

Nartaka alma
9. For him, the actor, who plays in the drama of Universe, is his own self.


Rangontaratma
10. Movement attributed in this totality of Cosmic Dance, is nothing other than the Supreme Being.



we continue....


Preksakani indriyani
11. The spectators in this Cosmic Dance, are one's own cognitive and active organs.

Dhivasat Sattvasiddhih
12. Purity and completion of this dance is accomplished by establishing the Supreme Subtle Awareness of intelligence.

Siddhah Svatantrabhavah
13. For him the state of utter freedom exists spontaneously.



Om Nama Sivaya

sarabhanga
24 October 2007, 05:22 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have just noticed that your hari oM says hari UM, and so too your oM namaH shivAya begins with UM :headscratch:

ऊँ = Um
ओं = om
औं = aum
ॐ = omkAra

atanu
24 October 2007, 08:45 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have just noticed that your hari oM says hari UM, and so too your oM namaH shivAya begins with UM :headscratch:

ऊँ = Um
ओं = om
औं = aum
ॐ = omkAra


:D Ummm.

We have naughty Shiva dancing.

yajvan
24 October 2007, 12:44 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste Yajvan,
I have just noticed that your hari oM says hari UM, and so too your oM namaH shivAya begins with UM :headscratch:

ऊँ = Um
ओं = om
औं = aum
ॐ = omkAra



Namaste sarabhanga,

... thank you. To explain is simple, operator error. Corrections or deletions will occur accordingly.

ॐ नमः िशवाय

yajvan
24 October 2007, 02:58 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~


Preksakani indriyani
11. The spectators in this Cosmic Dance, are one's own cognitive and active organs.

Dhivasat Sattvasiddhih
12. Purity and completion of this dance is accomplished by establishing the Supreme Subtle Awareness of intelligence.

Siddhah Svatantrabhavah
13. For him the state of utter freedom exists spontaneously.



we continue.
Yatha tatra tatha anyatra
14. This kind of freedom obtains for him within and without.

Bijavadhanam
15. Even after such achievement one has to remain aware in contemplating on the seed of Universal Being.

Asanasthah sukham hrade nimajjati
16. So by being established in such state one sinks into the ocean of God Consciousness-joyously.


* note - after the 45th sutra is complete, we will take a look at the various mantras and their insights to the best of my knowledge using the light of Swami Lakshman-joo's wisdom. References for this will be Siva Sutras -The Supreme Awakening, Kasmir Shaivism -The Secret Supreme,Vijnan Bhairava Tantra, etc. publications.

I am in hopes of insightful conversations and better understanding myself of this most noble & practical wisdom.


Please consider this post for the 15th sutra above:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=17672&postcount=7


Om Namo Bhagavate Rudraya


pranams

yajvan
26 October 2007, 09:17 AM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~




Yatha tatra tatha anyatra
14. This kind of freedom obtains for him within and without.

Bijavadhanam
15. Even after such achievement one has to remain aware in contemplating on the seed of Universal Being.

Asanasthah sukham hrade nimajjati
16. So by being established in such state one sinks into the ocean of God Consciousness-joyously.



we continue....
Svamatranirmanam apadayati
17. Such a yogi can create or destroy anything by his Supreme Will.

Vidya­avinase janma­vinasah
18. When the Supreme Knowledge is well established in an uninterrupted way, the pangs of recurring births and deaths are avoided for good

Kavargadisu mahesvaryadyah pasumatarah
19. When the awareness of God­ Consciousness slackens a bit, the Universal Energy disintegrates into innumerable individual Energies to carry one away from the Kingdom of Universality.


The blossoming of this Supreme Consciousness is shown in sutras 17 & 18.
On's purity of mind must be resolute. If impurity is there, then sutra 17 can cause mischef for the yogi and society.

With this level of consciousness ( sutra 18) one breaks the cycle of birth-and-rebirth.


* note - after the 45th sutra is complete, we will take a look at the various mantras and their insights to the best of my knowledge using the light of Swami Lakshman-joo's wisdom. References for this will be Siva Sutras -The Supreme Awakening, Kasmir Shaivism -The Secret Supreme,Vijnan Bhairava Tantra, etc. publications.

The following posts are examples of applying the knowledge and discussions:
The Second Awakening, first sutra that is cittam mantrah || or mind is mantra. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=17524#post17524 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=17524#post17524)

The First Awakening ,second sutra as the baseline of discussion for this post: The 2nd sutra says, Jnanam Bandhah - knowing is bondage
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2201 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2201)


bhavam bhavani sahitam namami
omnamasivaya

pranams

yajvan
27 October 2007, 04:14 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~


Svamatranirmanam apadayati
17. Such a yogi can create or destroy anything by his Supreme Will.

Vidya­avinase janma­vinasah
18. When the Supreme Knowledge is well established in an uninterrupted way, the pangs of recurring births and deaths are avoided for good

Kavargadisu mahesvaryadyah pasumatarah
19. When the awareness of God­ Consciousness slackens a bit, the Universal Energy disintegrates into innumerable individual Energies to carry one away from the Kingdom of Universality.








Trisu caturtham tailavadasecyam
20. The fourth, Universal Being, i.e. Turya, must be made to permeate the three other states viz. wakefulness, dreaming and dreamlessness.

Magnah svacittena praviset
21. By developing the awareness of one's own nature, he enters and is lost into the Universal God Consciousness.

Prana samacare Samadarsanam
22. After being well established in turya he breathes out that state into the Universal activities. Hence the differentiation between the self and the Universe is not recognized.


Om Namah Nilakanthaya Namo Namah

pranams

yajvan
04 November 2007, 06:48 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~


Trisu caturtham tailavadasecyam
20. The fourth, Universal Being, i.e., Turya, must be made to permeate the three other states viz. wakefulness, dreaming and dreamlessness.

Magnah svacittena praviset
21. By developing the awareness of one's own nature, he enters and is lost into the Universal God Consciousness.

Prana samacare Samadarsanam
22. After being well established in turya he breathes out that state into the Universal activities. Hence the differentiation between the self and the Universe is not recognized.

pranams

we continue.

Madhyevaraprasavah
23. If one proves a failure in infusing the state of self in the Universe, he illfatally remains satisfied in his own internal nature.

Matrasvapratyayasandhane nastasyapunarutthanam
24. When a yogi, after developing awareness of God Consciousness, Turya, he enters into Transcendental God-Consciousness.

Sivatulyo jayate
25. Such a yogi becomes one with Shiva.



Sutra 25 is interesting... in one reading the sutra says 'becomes one with Siva; Another interpretation [same author] says He ( the yogi) beomes just like Siva. This 'just like' then must be Aham, "I" Supreme Consciousness.

The explaination is if one is still has the body, the physical frame, then the elements are still with this yogi. This suggests prarabdha karma and some left overs (lesh avidya) may arise. When one drops the body, some call this mahasamadhi, then there is oneness with Siva, oneness with Bhairava.

Yet ones action no matter what s/he chooses to do with life is virtuous ( this is in surta 26 to be posted next).



Om Namah Nilakanthaya Namo Namah


pranams,

yajvan
05 November 2007, 10:29 AM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Madhyevaraprasavah
23. If one proves a failure in infusing the state of self in the Universe, he illfatally remains satisfied in his own internal nature.

Matrasvapratyayasandhane nastasyapunarutthanam
24. When a yogi, after developing awareness of God Consciousness, Turya, he enters into Transcendental God-Consciousness.

Sivatulyo jayate
25. Such a yogi becomes one with Shiva.

Sutra 25 is interesting... in one reading the sutra says 'becomes one with Siva; Another interpretation [same author] says He ( the yogi) beomes just like Siva. This 'just like' then must be Aham, "I" Supreme Consciousness.

The explanation is if one is still has the body, the physical frame, then the elements are still with this yogi. This suggests prarabdha karma and some left overs (lesh avidya) may arise. When one drops the body, some call this mahasamadhi, then there is oneness with Siva, oneness with Bhairava.

Yet ones action no matter what s/he chooses to do with life is virtuous ( this is in surta 26 to be posted next).







we continue.

Sariravrttir vratam
26. For him the austerity is nothing else than the normal routine of physical life.

Katha japah
27. And for such a yogi the daily routine talk becomes the recitation of real Mantra.

Danam atmajuanam
28. Such a yogi gives as alms to humanity his own knowledge of the self.



Note that austerity for the realized is just the maintenance of the body. As one is possessed of Aham, there is nothing special that needs to be done. All has been accomplished. For this yogin virtue happens with each breath.

Because this yogin resides in the SELF, this Aham, then 'katha japah' , his normal discourse of the day is mantra. Even the breath and the inward stroke 'ha' takes place and outward 'sa' occurs - we know this as hamsa as the grace of the swan, we know this as I am He. We also know this as the mantra so'ham.

S/he remains in the body for the purpose of imparting the knowledge of the SELF, this is his/her alms or offering to humanity and other seekers/sadhus. So some call this dana - what is given to another. This dana also means all that the yogin sees, is an offering to him also, as all is an extension of the SELF; all is viewed as SELF referral.


Om Namah Nilakanthaya Namo Namah


pranams

yajvan
13 November 2007, 05:47 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Sariravrttir vratam
26. For him the austerity is nothing else than the normal routine of physical life.

Katha japah
27. And for such a yogi the daily routine talk becomes the recitation of real Mantra.

Danam atmajuanam
28. Such a yogi gives as alms to humanity his own knowledge of the self.

Note that austerity for the realized is just the maintenance of the body. As one is possessed of Aham, there is nothing special that needs to be done. All has been accomplished. For this yogin virtue happens with each breath.

Because this yogin resides in the SELF, this Aham, then 'katha japah' , his normal discourse of the day is mantra. Even the breath and the inward stroke 'ha' takes place and outward 'sa' occurs - we know this as hamsa as the grace of the swan, we know this as I am He. We also know this as the mantra so'ham.

S/he remains in the body for the purpose of imparting the knowledge of the SELF, this is his/her alms or offering to humanity and other seekers/sadhus. So some call this dana - what is given to another. This dana also means all that the yogin sees, is an offering to him also, as all is an extension of the SELF; all is viewed as SELF referral.



We pick up at sutra 29, in the Third Awakening Section

Yovipastho Jnahetusca
29. The yogi, who commands the entire wheel of cognitive and active organs, is the only means of attaining knowledge of Transcendental God-Consciousness.

Svasakti-pracayosya visvam
30. For him the whole Universe is the totality of his own energies.

Sthti layou
31. Living in this world of ignorance or remaining in the Transcendental God-Consciousness is the totality of one's own energies of Consciousness.


This Yovipastho, of sutra 29 is of interest. Swami Laksmanjoo spends time on this … He says the word needs to be taken apart.

The 'yo' sound (or phonic) indicates yogindra, the foremost of yogis. Vi indicates vijnanam or knowledge/wisdom; pa indicates a state and stha refers to one that is established in that state.

Then Jnahetusea. Jna is who knows that he indicated heyah or what is to be abandoned and that is tu or tucchata, or differentiated (duality) perception. In this word we do not easily see this visargah or h yet it is there and refers to creative energy or visargasktih. The end of the sutra ends with 'ca' as I know it to = 'and' , yet Swami Lakshmanjoo says in this case it means 'one who does'.

Then when you put it all together is says the yogindra by the energy of his awareness is established in his one nature of Supreme Consciousness becomes the knower and the doer. He can perceive and differentiate what is to be achieves and what is to be discarded; he does not own that which to be discarded.

Yet after that is said, Swamiji rejects this interpretation and does not agree with Ksemaraja's inclusion and commentary on this sutra. Yet for me it seems a reasonable [ but am just the cosmic lint in this discussionhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon11.gif]


A point to consider. Who is Ksemaraja ? He is the of one of the three authors of the Siva sutras; His bhasya or commentary is called Siva Sutra Vimarsini.

Swami Lakashamjoo bases his works on Siva Sutra Vimarsini. Since is Ksemaraja was the main sisya (disciple, some call arya sravaka or arya = noble or faithful + sravaka or flow or drop) of Abhinavagupta. Ksemaraja was quite advanced spiritually and a prolific , in depth writer . He wrote numerous comentaties of Vijnanabhairava, Netra Tandra, Svacchanda Tantra, etc.

Fourteen more sutras [सूत्र - to sew or stitch] remain.

ॐ नमः िशवाय

pranams,

yajvan
14 November 2007, 09:26 PM
[हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~




Yovipastho Jnahetusca
29. The yogi, who commands the entire wheel of cognitive and active organs, is the only means of attaining knowledge of Transcendental God-Consciousness.

Svasakti-pracayosya visvam
30. For him the whole Universe is the totality of his own energies.

Sthti layou
31. Living in this world of ignorance or remaining in the Transcendental God-Consciousness is the totality of one's own energies of Consciousness.


This Yovipastho, of sutra 29 is of interest. Swami Laksmanjoo spends time on this … He says the word needs to be taken apart.

The 'yo' sound (or phonic) indicates yogindra, the foremost of yogis. Vi indicates vijnanam or knowledge/wisdom; pa indicates a state and stha refers to one that is established in that state.

Then Jnahetusea. Jna is who knows that he indicated heyah or what is to be abandoned and that is tu or tucchata, or differentiated (duality) perception. In this word we do not easily see this visargah or h yet it is there and refers to creative energy or visargasktih. The end of the sutra ends with 'ca' as I know it to = 'and' , yet Swami Lakshmanjoo says in this case it means 'one who does'.

Then when you put it all together is says the yogindra by the energy of his awareness is established in his one nature of Supreme Consciousness becomes the knower and the doer. He can perceive and differentiate what is to be achieves and what is to be discarded; he does not own that which to be discarded.

Yet after that is said, Swamiji rejects this interpretation and does not agree with Ksemaraja's inclusion and commentary on this sutra. Yet for me it seems a reasonable [ but am just the cosmic lint in this discussionhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon11.gif]


A point to consider. Who is Ksemaraja ? He is the of one of the three authors of the Siva sutras; His bhasya or commentary is called Siva Sutra Vimarsini.

Swami Lakashamjoo bases his works on Siva Sutra Vimarsini. Since is Ksemaraja was the main sisya (disciple, some call arya sravaka or arya = noble or faithful + sravaka or flow or drop) of Abhinavagupta. Ksemaraja was quite advanced spiritually and a prolific , in depth writer . He wrote numerous comentaties of Vijnanabhairava, Netra Tandra, Svacchanda Tantra, etc.


We continue in the Third Awakening Section

Tatpravrttau api anirasah samvetr-bhavat
32. Such a yogi, though apparently engrossed in the daily routine of life, is in no way separated from God-Consciousness.

Sukha-duhkhayor bahirmananam
33. Because such a yogi perceives the states of pain and pleasure only superficially, they, in no case, affect his state of Supreme-Being Consciousness.

Tadvimuktastu kevali
34. Hence he is liberated from the states of pain and pleasure and is uniquely established in his own nature.

Mohapratisamhatas tu karmatma
35. On the contrary, the one who feels the absence of God-Consciousness in the states of pain and pleasure, is an individual soul and a victim of recurring births and deaths.


Ten sutras [सूत्र - to sew or stitch] remain...

ॐ नमः िशवाय

pranams,

yajvan
19 November 2007, 04:34 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~



Tatpravrttau api anirasah samvetr-bhavat
32. Such a yogi, though apparently engrossed in the daily routine of life, is in no way separated from God-Consciousness.

Sukha-duhkhayor bahirmananam
33. Because such a yogi perceives the states of pain and pleasure only superficially, they, in no case, affect his state of Supreme-Being Consciousness.

Tadvimuktastu kevali
34. Hence he is liberated from the states of pain and pleasure and is uniquely established in his own nature.

Mohapratisamhatas tu karmatma
35. On the contrary, the one who feels the absence of God-Consciousness in the states of pain and pleasure, is an individual soul and a victim of recurring births and deaths.

We continue in the Third Awakening Section

Bheda-tiraskare Sargantara-karmatvam
36. The one who stands, aloof from differentiatedness becomes the creator and destroyer of the entire Universe.

Karanasaktih Svato'nubhavat
37. The energy of creating and destroying the whole Universe comes within the experience of such a yogi just as an ordinary soul possesses the power to create and destroy during his dreaming state.

Tripadadyanuprananam
38. The state of Turya God-Consciousness, that comes into experience in the beginning and at the end of the other three states (viz. Jagrat, Svapana and Susupti), should be infused and transmitted into these three states by firmly establishing one's own awareness during these intervals viz. beginning and end thereof.

Cittasthitivat Sarira-karana-bahyesu
39. And by developing such process, a yogi must transmit the God Consciousness not only into the three states of individuality but into the entire Universe.

Abhilasat bahirgatih samvahyasya
40. By the slight appearance of individual desire, one is carried far away from the state of God-Consciousness.


Now Swami Laksmanjoo says something a bit different in his book on sutra 36. He says 'He drives away the field of differentiated perception' - that is he, the yogin or yogini ignores differentiated perception i.e duality of indiviual consciousness.
It says in the Svacchanda Tantra , when you fix your awareness not only in two but in three, you are carried to God Conciousnss [turiya] and you become one with Svacchanda. [Svacchanda is Bharirava ]

This triple awareness is another way of expressing the gap or the junction point. That is one is not only aware of the in-breath and the out-breath, but of the junction of the two, of that sandhya, where it is neither one or the other.


5 sutras [सूत्र - to sew or stitch] remain...

ॐ नमः िशवाय

pranams,

yajvan
20 November 2007, 05:03 PM
हरि ॐ
Hari Om
~~~~~




We continue in the Third Awakening Section

Bheda-tiraskare Sargantara-karmatvam
36. The one who stands, aloof from differentiatedness becomes the creator and destroyer of the entire Universe.

Karanasaktih Svato'nubhavat
37. The energy of creating and destroying the whole Universe comes within the experience of such a yogi just as an ordinary soul possesses the power to create and destroy during his dreaming state.

Tripadadyanuprananam
38. The state of Turya God-Consciousness, that comes into experience in the beginning and at the end of the other three states (viz. Jagrat, Svapana and Susupti), should be infused and transmitted into these three states by firmly establishing one's own awareness during these intervals viz. beginning and end thereof.

Cittasthitivat Sarira-karana-bahyesu
39. And by developing such process, a yogi must transmit the God Consciousness not only into the three states of individuality but into the entire Universe.

Abhilasat bahirgatih samvahyasya
40. By the slight appearance of individual desire, one is carried far away from the state of God-Consciousness.


We complete the last 5 sutras [सूत्र - to sew or stitch] in the Third Awakening Section.


Tadarudhapramites tatksayaj ]iivasam Ksayah
41. By firmly establishing one's own self in the state of Turya, all desires disappear and individuality lost into Universality.

Bhuta-kancuki tada vimukto bhuyah patisamah parah
42. Such a yogi is Liberated-in-Life and as his body still exists, he is called Bhuta-Kancuki, i.e. having his physical body as a mere covering just like an ordinary blanket. Hence he is supreme and one with the Universal Self.

Naisargikah pranasambandhah
43. After remaining in this state of Universal Transcendental God Consciousness, the functions of inhalation and exhalation automatically take place with the object, that this whole Universe of action and cognition is united in God-Consciousness.

Nasika-antarmadhya samyamat kimatra savyapasavya sausumnesu
44. When one contemplates on the center of Universal consciousness, what else remains there to be sought in the practice of prana, apana and susumna ?

Bhuyah Syat pratimilanam
45. When a Saiva-yogi is completely established in God-Consciousness, he experiences this state spontaneously within and without or both.



Karika [verse] 44 is of interest i.e. the center of Universal consciousness.
What has been considered in these sutras and in the Vijnana Bhairava is all about centering, that is:
madhya मध्य - middlemost , intermediate , central , standing between two , impartial , neutral. It is in this centering, we find this gap; I call it turiya as do many. We can also call it sunya or sūnyatā, शून्यता- that is, voidness. Some call this voidness Bhuma, fullness.

This is the offering of these sutras, to get one established in, or have a glimpse of turiya, so ones progress can continue, to stabilize this experience as Moksha or as Swami Laksmanjoo would perhaps say , 'experience God Consciousness which is without differentiated thought, full of the sakti of Barirava.'.

I leave you with one inspiring thought from Swami Laksman joo...
This whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment.



ॐ नमः िशवाय

pranams

Bob G
20 November 2007, 05:46 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

"I leave you with one inspiring thought from Swami Laksman joo..."
"This whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment."

Indeed! And thank you for sharing all of the many excellent quotes!

I noticed that you used the term "sūnyatā". How common is it to use that term in relation to forms of Shaivism in Hinduism? I know the term is commonly used in Buddhism. -- But that it is also (imho) impossible to reconcile the core teachings of two religions even if they have several teachings that are similar...

For instance, a quote below copied from Swami Lakshmanjoo's web site concerning Buddhism:

"The tradition of Buddhist philosophers, who are known as the Vijnanavadins, accept, that you are liberated only when your mind is completely detached from all attachments to objectivity, pleasure, pain, and sorrow. They argue that the mind must remain only as mind, pure and perfect mind, because for them the mind is actually pure, filled with light, and detached from all worldly things. It is when the mind becomes attached to worldly things, such as thoughts, pleasures, and pains, that you are carried to samsara. And when these attachments are cancelled and the mind becomes pure, then you are liberated.


(shortened with a deletion at this point)
"From the Shaivite point of view, these philosophical traditions remain either in apavedya-pralayakala or in savedya-pralayakala. They do not go beyond these states."
Apavedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is no objectivity. Savedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is some impression of objectivity. As an example, take the state of deep sleep. When you wake up from deep sleep and then think, “I was sleeping and I didn’t know anything,” that is the state of apavedya-pralayakala. And when you wake up from the state of deep sleep and think, “I was sleeping peacefully without dreaming,” that is the state of savedya-pralayakala, because you experienced that it was a sweet sleep and so “sweetness” is the object for you in this state. Shaiva philosophy does not recognize the theories of these philosophies concerning liberation (moksha) because, in fact, the yogins of these traditions do not move above the pralayakala state and are not, therefore, situated in real moksha.

Our Shaivism explains that jnana (knowledge) is knowing one’s own nature, which is all Being (sat), all consciousness (cit), and all bliss (ananda). Ajnana (ignorance) is ignoring this nature, and this is the cause of the samsara which carries one in the cycle of repeated births and deaths."

Om

Bob G
20 November 2007, 05:53 PM
Swami Lakshmanjoo

287

Bob G
20 November 2007, 05:57 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

"I leave you with one inspiring thought from Swami Laksman joo..."
"This whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment."

Indeed! And thank you for sharing all of the many excellent quotes!

I noticed that you used the term "sūnyatā". How common is it to use that term in relation to forms of Shaivism in Hinduism? I know the term is commonly used in Buddhism. -- But that it is also (imho) impossible to reconcile the core teachings of two religions even if they have several teachings that are similar...

For instance, a quote below copied from Swami Lakshmanjoo's web site concerning Buddhism:

"The tradition of Buddhist philosophers, who are known as the Vijnanavadins, accept, that you are liberated only when your mind is completely detached from all attachments to objectivity, pleasure, pain, and sorrow. They argue that the mind must remain only as mind, pure and perfect mind, because for them the mind is actually pure, filled with light, and detached from all worldly things. It is when the mind becomes attached to worldly things, such as thoughts, pleasures, and pains, that you are carried to samsara. And when these attachments are cancelled and the mind becomes pure, then you are liberated.
The philosophers from the Vaibhashika tradition hold that, liberation is attained by deleting the chain of thought’s, just as the flame of a lamp is extinguished. When a lamp is burning, we experience the existence of the flame. When, however, the flame is extinguished, it does not go anywhere. It does not go into the earth or into the ether. When the flame is extinguished, it simply disappears. And the extinguishing of the flame takes place when the oil of the lamp is exhausted. In the same way, when a yogi has crossed over all the pleasures and pains of the world, those pleasures and pains do not go anywhere, they simply disappear. This yogi, who has extinguished the flame of the chain of thoughts by exhausting the wax of the five-fold kleshas, enters into the supreme and perfect peace which is, from their point of view, liberation.

"From the Shaivite point of view, these philosophical traditions remain either in apavedya-pralayakala or in savedya-pralayakala. They do not go beyond these states."
Apavedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is no objectivity. Savedya-pralayakala is that state of pralayakala where there is some impression of objectivity. As an example, take the state of deep sleep. When you wake up from deep sleep and then think, “I was sleeping and I didn’t know anything,” that is the state of apavedya-pralayakala. And when you wake up from the state of deep sleep and think, “I was sleeping peacefully without dreaming,” that is the state of savedya-pralayakala, because you experienced that it was a sweet sleep and so “sweetness” is the object for you in this state. Shaiva philosophy does not recognize the theories of these philosophies concerning liberation (moksha) because, in fact, the yogins of these traditions do not move above the pralayakala state and are not, therefore, situated in real moksha.

Our Shaivism explains that jnana (knowledge) is knowing one’s own nature, which is all Being (sat), all consciousness (cit), and all bliss (ananda). Ajnana (ignorance) is ignoring this nature, and this is the cause of the samsara which carries one in the cycle of repeated births and deaths."

Om

yajvan
20 November 2007, 07:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~




Namaste Yajvan,

"I leave you with one inspiring thought from Swami Laksman joo..."
"This whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment."

Indeed! And thank you for sharing all of the many excellent quotes!

I noticed that you used the term "sūnyatā". How common is it to use that term in relation to forms of Shaivism in Hinduism? I know the term is commonly used in Buddhism. -- But that it is also (imho) impossible to reconcile the core teachings of two religions even if they have several teachings that are similar...

For instance, a quote below copied from Swami Lakshmanjoo's web site concerning Buddhism....Om

Namaste BG,
Yes a good point you offer... this sūnyatā, शून्यता- that is, voidness, is one of degree. For Kasmir Saivism it is found in karikas within techniques... Lets look at karika (verse) 40 of Vijnana Bhairava... it says
yasya kasyapi varnasya purcabtau-anubhavayet |
Sunyaya sunya-bhuto'sau sunyakarah puman-bhavet ||

One should meditatate on the beginning and end of (the uttering of) any letter (or mantra) by becoming void due to the power of the void, one will reach the state of pure void.

First this is a beautiful technique - the notion or the slight intent to recite, yet do not , that is purvantau. Try it and you see what the sutra is saying... you will feel different, and you will see what this is about.

That is, one is doing dharana on this slight intent this 'void' space, where you where going to say something then you do not and there is that energy reservoir that is there.

By doing this then, one is placing their awareness on sūnyatā. When one experiences the full fruit of this technique, this upaya, one becomes the embodiment of this void and is considered Bharirava/Siva [bhavet sunyakarah]. And what is that? it is turiya or vishvottirna avastha [ the transcendental state].

This is how this sūnyatā is considered... I am happy to go deeper and wider as needed.

Hope this helps. there is no doubt a difference here between these schools.



ॐ नमः िशवाय

Bob G
21 November 2007, 07:17 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

The quote below is to me a tangential teaching on the subject of "void" and or what to some is "non-being'. (and apparently one of core differences between Buddhism and Hinduism...?)

From Chandogya upanishad: — Brahman: the Cause of the Universe
1. "In the beginning, my dear, this universe was Being (Sat) alone, one only without a second. Some say that in the beginning this was non—being (asat) alone, one only without a second; and from that non—being, being was born."

2. Aruni said: "But how, indeed, could it be thus, my dear? How could Being be born from non—being? No, my dear, it was Being alone that existed in the beginning, one only without a second.

3. "It (Being, or Brahman) thought: ‘May I be many; may I grow forth.’ It created fire. That fire thought: ‘May I be many; may I grow forth.’ It created water. That is why, whenever a person is hot and perspires, water is produced from fire (heat) alone.

4. "That water thought: ‘May I be many; may I grow forth.’ It created food (i.e. earth). That is why, whenever it rains anywhere, abundant food is produced. From water alone is edible food produced.

yajvan
21 November 2007, 08:01 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,
The quote below is to me a tangential teaching on the subject of "void" and or what to some is "non-being'. (and apparently one of core differences between Buddhism and Hinduism...?)

From Chandogya upanishad: — Brahman: the Cause of the Universe
1. "In the beginning, my dear, this universe was Being (Sat) alone, one only without a second. Some say that in the beginning this was non—being (asat) alone, one only without a second; and from that non—being, being was born."

2. Aruni said: "But how, indeed, could it be thus, my dear? How could Being be born from non—being? No, my dear, it was Being alone that existed in the beginning, one only without a second.

3. "It (Being, or Brahman) thought: ‘May I be many; may I grow forth.’ It created fire. That fire thought: ‘May I be many; may I grow forth.’ It created water. That is why, whenever a person is hot and perspires, water is produced from fire (heat) alone.

4. "That water thought: ‘May I be many; may I grow forth.’ It created food (i.e. earth). That is why, whenever it rains anywhere, abundant food is produced. From water alone is edible food produced.

Namaste BG
A most excellent choice to explain this... How can all this come from nothing? some say void. This Being is Fullness. Yet there are differernt levels one experiences of this Being. Perhaps the experience of this Being for Buddhism is that of voidness... I can appreciate how one may think this.

As it was explained in the Upanishads and taught to me, as one grows in this , the experience changes and develops over time. It is not just one experience. As one becomes established in the SELF, Brahman, one has achieved what needs to be done. Yet over time this Silence, this turiya is then experinced on the level of the senses and all things then are the expression of this Silence, of Brahman and experienced as such.

We say this often on HDF, that all this is indeed Brahman. Yet these are noble words spoken with honesty, but without the actual experince [ at least for me it is fleeting, yet blessed with a glimpse in seconds at a time].

It the beginning of this Moksa there is the perfect silence of SELF, that is experinced by the sadhu within him-her SELF. Many call it Self-referral.
'I' remain established in this Aham, in this silence. Yet over time, this silence is then experienced outside of me, in everything I see, touch, taste, smell... One begins to rejoice in His/Her Creation of Silence.

Yet at first the division of SELF and non-SELF has to be experienced and understood personally, empirically.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your ideas.


Just as the flowing rivers disappear in the sea, losing their names and forms, so also a seer from the name and form goes to the Divine Person [ divyam Purusha] who is greater then the great. Mundakopanishad.


pranams,

Bob G
24 November 2007, 08:40 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

Thank you also for sharing your thoughts and ideas! And a great many fine submissions and studies to say the least!

I have mentioned Buddhism a few times in this this string; here is what I feel to be an excellent insight from a Buddhist teacher about a possible problem with interpretations related to the word "void":

Yutang Lin
"Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.
Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.
Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.
Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation"

sarabhanga
24 November 2007, 11:34 PM
That is one is not only aware of the in-breath and the out-breath, but of the junction of the two, of that sandhya, where it is neither one nor the other.

And, of course, at the saMdhyA of pUraka and recaka there is always kumbhaka ;)


notes on nothing :

shUnya (or shunya) is “empty, void, hollow, barren, desolate, deserted, destitute, distracted, vacant, absent, missing, free, with no certain object or aim, possessing nothing, wholly destitute, wholly alone or solitary, having no friends or companions, wanting, lacking, non-existent, vain, idle, unreal, nonsensical, ineffectual, insensible, bare, naked, guileless, innocent, or indifferent”.

shUnya is “a void or vacuum”, “vacuity, nonentity, or absolute non-existence”, “nought, zero, a cipher, or space”, “svarga or brahma”, and shUnyA is “a barren woman”.

shUnyatA is “emptiness, loneliness, desolateness, absence of mind, absence or want, distraction, vacancy, nothingness, non-existence, non-reality, or mAyA”.

Bob G
25 November 2007, 08:26 PM
Excerpt from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's I AM THAT:

"I am not even Consciousness, which is dual and perceivable:
I am the unkown Reality beyond."

yajvan
25 November 2007, 09:29 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Excerpt from Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's I AM THAT:

"I am not even Consciousness, which is dual and perceivable:
I am the unkown Reality beyond."



Namate BG,
a very interesting view [ which is Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's experience ]... it seems the notion of consciousness suggests there is two. This word consciousness is the ~best~ word some have come up with for Cit. That is why this turiya has been such a pickle to describe.

So when one experiences Moksha, then the truth of what-is-and-is-not becomes clear. This is the blessing of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's experience.

We think of moksha as Liberation - of this there is no doubt. Moksha is from moks 'to liberate' . Another view (which I subscribe to) is moha 'to delude' + kshaya 'reduction' or 'astringent' = moksha is the extinction of delusion. Now what is left? Cit? Turiya? Aham?

So the secret of this consciousness is really understanding what IT is.
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj suggests - 'to know the world we forget the SELF, to know the SELF we forget the world.' The answer is here.

The absolute Citi of its own free will is the cause of the siddhi of the universe. - sutra 1, Pratyabhijnahrdaym - by Ksemaraja muni

pranams

sarabhanga
26 November 2007, 04:22 AM
This word consciousness is the ~best~ word some have come up with for Cit.

Namaste Yajvan,

cit is “knowing or thinking, or giving heed”.
cit means “to perceive, to be attentive, to understand, to comprehend, to know, or to think”.
cit means “to form an idea in the mind” or “to reflect upon”.
cit is “thought or intellect, spirit or soul”.

citta is “noticed or aimed at”, “visible or observing”, “thinking, reflecting, or imagining”.
citta is “thought, intention, or aim”, “the heart or the mind”, “memory, intelligence, or reason”.

cetas is “splendor”, “consciousness or intelligence”, “heart or mind”, or “the thinking soul”.

cetana is “visible or conspicuous”, “distinguished or excellent”, “percipient, conscious, sentient, or intelligent”.
cetana is “an intelligent being, a man, the soul or mind”.
cetana is “consciousness, understanding, sense, or intelligence”.

caitanya is “consciousness, intelligence, or sensation”, “the individual soul or spirit”, or “the universal Soul”.

sarabhanga
26 November 2007, 06:14 AM
cit is “knowing or thinking, or giving heed”.
cit means “to perceive, to be attentive, to understand, to comprehend, to know, or to think”.
cit means “to form an idea in the mind” or “to reflect upon”.
cit is “thought or intellect, spirit or soul”.

citta is “noticed or aimed at”, “visible or observing”, “thinking, reflecting, or imagining”.
citta is “thought, intention, or aim”, “the heart or the mind”, “memory, intelligence, or reason”.

cetas is “splendor”, “consciousness or intelligence”, “heart or mind”, or “the thinking soul”.

cetana is “visible or conspicuous”, “distinguished or excellent”, “percipient, conscious, sentient, or intelligent”.
cetana is “an intelligent being, a man, the soul or mind”.
cetana is “consciousness, understanding, sense, or intelligence”.

caitanya is “consciousness, intelligence, or sensation”, “the individual soul or spirit”, or “the universal Soul”.

cit is “piling or piled up”, or “forming a layer or stratum” ~ equivalent with mahat, which is “great”, “abundant, considerable, rich or eminent”, “becoming great or full” (i.e. “piling up”).

mahat arises from nara, the turya brahma, as the source of nArAyaNa and ahaMkAra; but cit (as “consciousness”) is not exactly equivalent with turya, which remains absolutely humble and without any accumulation.

turya is the basis for mahat or cit ~ as “absolute cit”. And cit (or buddhi) is the basis for ahaMkAra ~ as “absolute Self consciousness”.

The wise think that the turya is not that which is conscious, neither is it consciousness nor unconsciousness.
It is the sole unconditioned essence of the consciousness of the universal Self.



turya brahma = sat
turIya brahmA = cit
turIyAtIta brAhmaNa = Ananda

;)

yajvan
26 November 2007, 12:59 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


And, of course, at the saMdhyA of pUraka and recaka there is always kumbhaka ;)


Namaste,

Please consider the following post as an extention of this conversation:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18381&postcount=7

Bob G
26 November 2007, 01:46 PM
Hello Yajvan

"Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj suggests - 'to know the world we forget the SELF, to know the SELF we forget the world."

Yes, And thanks, I think I understand the context of that saying...

And the context of the saying below apparently goes another step...?

“….All of the states of turya from nijananda to cidananda comprise the various phases of nimilana samadhi. Nimilana samadhi is internal subjective samadhi. In your moving through these six states of turya, this samadhi becomes ever more firm. With the occurrence of krama mudra, nimilana samadhi is transformed into unmilana samadhi, which then becomes predominant. This is that state of extraverted samadhi, where you experience the state of samadhi at the same time you are experiencing the objective world. And when unmilana samadhi becomes fixed and permanent, this is the state of jagadananda…”

Swami Lakshmanjoo Brahmachari

(underlines added by me)

Om

yajvan
26 November 2007, 02:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Hello Yajvan
"Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj suggests - 'to know the world we forget the SELF, to know the SELF we forget the world."

Yes, And thanks, I think I understand the context of that saying...

And the context of the saying below apparently goes another step...?

“….All of the states of turya from nijananda to cidananda comprise the various phases of nimilana samadhi. Nimilana samadhi is internal subjective samadhi. In your moving through these six states of turya, this samadhi becomes ever more firm. With the occurrence of krama mudra, nimilana samadhi is transformed into unmilana samadhi, which then becomes predominant. This is that state of extraverted samadhi, where you experience the state of samadhi at the same time you are experiencing the objective world. And when unmilana samadhi becomes fixed and permanent, this is the state of jagadananda…”

Swami Lakshmanjoo Brahmachari (underlines added by me)

Om


Namaste BG,
This turiya is a beautiful thing... if you get time to track some of our conversations on this http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822 you will find a substantial sharing of ideas... at times some differing opinions, yet in the end we resolve the differences.

Extroverted samadhi is stabilized turiya, Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization), turiyatit chetana (sustained turya).
There is only one turiya, yet people get glimpse of it along the way to Moksha. This is why Swami Laksmanjoo suggests 6 states. Its 6 views of the same turiya.

Some call this sustained samadhi 'restful alertness', dynamic calm, an alert passivity ( not my favorite expression). Its the notion that the individual is completely awake within his/her SELF, yet there is this perfect balance of restfulness, of samA.

What I find most profound, Swami-ji says the following:
If one realizes that state of supreme God Consciousness for only the fraction of the time it takes to blink one's eyes [ a nimesha ] then from that very moment, he is said to be completely liberated and will not come again to this world. He is quoting from the Netra Tantra 8.8

I have heard the same from Paramahamsa Nithyananda. If you have not had the opportunity to listen to some of his lectures via you tube, you may find them worthy of the time spent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcwTdckpCes&mode=related&search=
He speaks on lots of subjects openly and freely e.g. commentaries on various Siva Sutras, etc.

pranams,

yajvan
28 November 2007, 01:08 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


BOB G wrote
I noticed that you used the term sūnyatā". How common is it to use that term in relation to forms of Shaivism in Hinduism? I know the term is commonly used in Buddhism. -- But that it is also (IMHO) impossible to reconcile the core teachings of two religions even if they have several teachings that are similar...

Yajvan wrote
Yes a good point you offer... this sūnyatā, शून्यता- that is, voidness, is one of degree. For Kasmir Saivism it is found in karikas within techniques... Lets look at karika (verse) 40 of Vijnana Bhairava... it says
yasya kasyapi varnasya purcabtau-anubhavayet |
Sunyayasunya-bhuto'sau sunyakarah puman-bhavet ||
One should meditatate on the beginning and end of (the uttering of) any letter (or mantra) by becoming void due to the power of the void, one will reach the state of pure void.


sarabhanga wrote
shUnya (or shunya) is "empty, void, hollow, barren, desolate, deserted, destitute, distracted, vacant, absent, missing, free, with no certain object or aim, possessing nothing, wholly destitute, wholly alone or solitary, having no friends or companions, wanting, lacking, non-existent, vain, idle, unreal, nonsensical, ineffectual, insensible, bare, naked, guileless, innocent, or indifferent"

____________________________________________________________

Namaste BG (et.al)
I think we may have exhausted the discussion on 'void' but thought to add one or two things from some reading and thought it applied. The question is taken up in the Spanda karikas (karika's 12 to 16). The discussion addresses sunya [sūnyatā, शून्यता] and abhāva अभाव or non-existence , nullity , absence. The notion is all about definition of what these mean and the experience of these conditions. The 'arguments' presented are compared and contrasted to a Buddhist view and a Vedantists view. Yet one foundation for the spanda karilka's POV is offered in the Vijnana Bhairava tantra, sutra 14, it says:
This Barirava is free from the limitations of space, time and form. It is not particularized by a specific place or designation. In reality it is inexpressible, because it cannot be described.

So one argument goes: mere non-existence, abhāva, cannot be an object of contemplation, says the author Vasugupta. If you mean , abhāva and/or sunya as described in verse 14 of the Vijnana Bhairava tantra, then all is right with the world and it is just a matter of discussing the indescribable. Yet, if you are of the opinion that the void is that of emptiness in toto, then how can the contemplator of this level of Being conceive of it, as he too should also non-exist!

A very interesting state of affairs… In other words where does 'Aham' go? If this is totally void without and within the absence of everything, abhāva, what of Aham that is ones core nature? This Aham (I) remains the witness , the conceiver. If so then there cannot be a universal extinction - it does not apply.

This is just one argument that is posed on this notion. They continue the line of thought to different levels such as the voids unknowably is should be impossible to express it, then why call it void? Then POV continues, but I think if I continue I only confuse the reader and perhaps myself.

The point here is when the muni's refute an idea, they are able to go to the Nth degree with their razor sharp intellect and define things that the 'regular guy' [that would be me] misses and ponders their views.
Any way - thought to bring that up if you wished to pursue this, the Book lays out the argument that has to be re-read multiple times to be able to compare and contrast the subtleties (before brain cramps set in).


pranams

Bob G
28 November 2007, 10:36 PM
Hello Yajvan and others,

Here is a quoted text for consideration or comment for those interested:

Isa Upanisad, chapter 1, 6-14

"When a man sees all beings within his very self, and his self within all beings, It will not seek to hide from him.
When in the self of a discerning man, his very self has become all beings, what bewilderment, what sorrow can there be, regarding that self of him who sees this oneness.
He has reached the seed--without body or wound, without sinews, not riddled by evil. Self-existant and all-encompassing, the wise sage has dispensed objects through endless years.
Into blind darkness they enter, people who worship ignorance; and into still blinder darkness, people who delight in learning.
It's far different from knowledge, they say, different also from ignorance, we're told--so have we heard from the wise men, who have explained it to us.
Knowledge and ignorance--a man who knows them both together, passes beyond death by ignorance, and by knowledge attains immortality.
Into blind darkness they enter, people who worship non-becoming; and into still blinder darkness, people who delight in becoming.
It's far different from coming-into-being, they say, different also from not-coming into-being, we're told--so we have heard from wise men, who have explained it all to us.
The becoming and the destruction--a man who knows them both together; passes beyond death by destruction, and by becoming attains immortality.

-----------------------------------

1. I like the analogy of potential; in electrical terms voltage is potential, current is flow, and wattage is power which is the result of the voltage and current.

2. I also find the often used term of "nothing" as a poor way to allude to topics such the what some call the "void"...but imho with a simple changing of the word nothing to "no-thing" one then has a far better pointer.

3. I believe I've read somewhere that total "dissolution" (such as related to "void") is actually total spiritualization.
(which is not of the mind and thus can not be encompassed by it)

Om

yajvan
29 November 2007, 01:20 PM
Isa Upanisad, chapter 1, 6-14

"When a man sees all beings within his very self, and his self within all beings, It will not seek to hide from him.


Namsate BG,

abhedebhedanam bhedite ca
antaranusamdhanena abhedanam|

See duality in Unity and unity in Duality. A nice parallel to the Isa Upanishad.

The notion is not an intellectual-mind riddle but an actual state of affairs for the muni. The world changes for those that a blessed with Moksha. The system operates at a different level of functioning. That is why this notion of Unity is so compelling to consider. Not just a concept but a change in Reality.

That is why it is fruitful of us to discuss this... it prepares the soil. As the change in ones perception must be accompanied by the knowledge of what is transpiring.

One person that had this change take place offered some of his thoughts on this that I passed on to HDF. Here is the post if you care to take a look: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1524

pranams,

Bob G
30 November 2007, 11:20 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

Thanks for posting the link. I may understand or relate to parts what of Manuel was quoted as saying...and the part about being happy to be human may seem rather ordinary but I feel it to be a very meaningful statement!

Om

srivijaya
28 April 2008, 05:58 AM
2. Knowing the individual consciousness as one's own nature and not knowing the Universal Consciousness as one's
own nature, is bondage.

Dear yajvan,
What a wonderful thread. I find the Siva sutras very inspiring. I was particularly impressed with a translation of the above section I found on this Swami Lakshmanjoo site:

Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage 1.02. Siva Sutras
http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/usf/teachings_02_first.html

I took this to mean the following, that "knowing differentiatedly" is our confused state which is unable to behold the unity of being and is blinded by the apparent subject-object duality. We all pass through deep (undifferentiated) states during the processes of sleep and death but are unable to know these states for what they are, hence "not knowing undifferentiatedly" we are reborn within samsara.

1. Within the gross state of awareness we are unable to connect with the underlying undifferentiated state (ie Shiva).
2. Whilst in the undifferentiated state, there is no 'knowing'.

Both are bondage.

Just my take. Feel free to correct any mistakes here.

Namaste

Arjuna
28 April 2008, 09:15 AM
Just for a note: these are *interpretations* of the verse and not translations. Original sUtra is just "j~nAnam bandhaH".

srivijaya
28 April 2008, 12:39 PM
Just for a note: these are *interpretations* of the verse and not translations. Original sUtra is just "j~nAnam bandhaH".

Hi Arjuna,
Yes, I'd noticed that. How would you literally translate those words?
Namaste

Arjuna
28 April 2008, 03:51 PM
Hi Arjuna,
Yes, I'd noticed that. How would you literally translate those words?
Namaste

I don't see many variants for literal translation here :).
"Knowledge is bondage".

BhAskara-vArttika interprets this as:

"The knowledge [based on the notions] "I" and "this is mine" arises clothed in speech and consists of the perceptions of relative distinctions. It is rooted in the impurity of Maya and is said to be bondage, whose mark is the obscuration of ignorance".
(Translated by M. Dyczkowski.)

yajvan
28 April 2008, 04:54 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


What a wonderful thread. I find the Siva sutras very inspiring. I was particularly impressed with a translation of the above section I found on this Swami Lakshmanjoo site:

http://www.universalshaivafellowship.org/usf/teachings_02_first.html

I took this to mean the following, that "knowing differentiatedly" is our confused state which is unable to behold the unity of being and is blinded by the apparent subject-object duality. We all pass through deep (undifferentiated) states during the processes of sleep and death but are unable to know these states for what they are, hence "not knowing undifferentiatedly" we are reborn within samsara.

1. Within the gross state of awareness we are unable to connect with the underlying undifferentiated state (ie Shiva).
2. Whilst in the undifferentiated state, there is no 'knowing'.

Both are bondage.

Just my take. Feel free to correct any mistakes here.

Namaste

Namaste srivijaya

the original post is here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2078 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2078) this addresses Arjuna's post - and he is correct.. What we are now talking about is the insights offered from the wise for our consideration.
I like your assessment. Let me offer perhaps just a bit more on this matter if I may.

This sutra suggests the of wholeness of consciousness that is available for the native yet not established in ones daily life. It must be of key import don't you think as its the second sutra. It does not suggest it is not available , just not the daily experience 7x24x365 days a year.


It's important to note that this kArikA appears in the 1st section of the Siva Sutras. There are 3 sections, for 3 stages of the sadhu. The Siva Sutras are laid out with the highest first, being offered first. Followed by 2nd and 3rd methodologies.

It makes perfect sense that the first sutra then is caitanyamatma. The reality of everything is Supreme Consciousness. Note it starts at the highest level of Reality one could consider... no maya, or gunas, or birth-to-rebirth, and all that... just the pure fact that all THIS is THAT. To the asperant that is ready, this one word can deliver him/her to samāveṣa, to Divine Consciousness.

This helps with understanding then the meaning behind this kArikA - to know differentially ( that is , in parts, in fractions) is bondage , a function of ignorance. And not knowing undifferentedly ( that is, this wholeness of consciousness) is also bondage or ignorance.

But aṅgāḥ (the limb or part) is connected to aṅgi ( the whole). This ignorance cannot be outside of this wholeness. So what's the deal? It's the notion that one feels this incomplete-ness , this is the mala or impurity of ignorance we experience.

So not knowing the whole-undifferentiated Consciousness is the blemish. But this 'knowing' is not the notion of book learning, its on the experiential level of life. To really know, is to Be IT.

We have this blemish and this is what fills us with differentiated (aṅgāḥ) experience AND we know it, because we live it daily - we experince it, life in fractions, in parts. This is the blemish on our eyes. The kArakA then is the foundation to take one further in this understanding, and the sutras in Chapt 1 are there to remove the blimish for that sadhu that is at this state of development.

This is my assessment - perhaps others can extend the insight.

नमः शिवाय च शिवतराय च
namah śivāya ca śivatarāya ca

srivijaya
29 April 2008, 05:50 AM
It must be of key import don't you think as its the second sutra. It does not suggest it is not available , just not the daily experience... This ignorance cannot be outside of this wholeness. So what's the deal?
Hi yajvan,
Yes, I absolutely agree. The 'basis' from which the samsaric consciousness proceeds is the supreme undifferentiated awareness and, in truth, it is never apart from it. The habitual nama-rupa thought pattern misconstrues the vibration of shakti and, thus, attributes 'self and other' upon the unfolding sense data.


this 'knowing' is not the notion of book learning, its on the experiential level of life. AND we know it, because we live it daily- we experince it, life in fractions, in parts.
Well said.

I don't know about others here, but I find that I occupy a very uncomfortable middle ground between those who assert that this 'supreme consciousness' is a 'separate entity' which has certain attributes and requires worship and those who assert that it does not even exist.

Namaste

yajvan
29 April 2008, 12:13 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~



I don't know about others here, but I find that I occupy a very uncomfortable middle ground between those who assert that this 'supreme consciousness' is a 'separate entity' which has certain attributes and requires worship and those who assert that it does not even exist.
Namaste

Namate srivijaya,
I see your point.
This Supreme is so Intelligent ( it is intelligence itself) so whole, one can view it as advaita , dvaita+ advaita, and dvaita. This is, how it looks at itself, as His creation is not outside of itSELF. Some even say This Supreme creates us, to learn, enjoy and exprience more about isSELF as 'agents' of Reality.

As a 'seperate entity' one can have the experience of dvaita+advaita; As for 'not existing at all' the blemish of avidya, ignorance prevails. And in many cases one does not even know that one does not know.

One may characterise this as nijashuddhi - ones own impurity. This is how the 9th karika found in the Spanda-kArikAa begins. This asuddhi is impurity , yet what is meant is mala. Mala मल is considered dirt , filth , dust , yet we are directed to consider mala as a limiting condition. Just as one has dirt and dust on the windshield of a car, it can be wiped off. The muni says there are 3 kinds of significant malas.

Anava mala
Mayiya mala
Karma malaSo , one pre-occupied with lots of dirt on the windshield will not even have the consideration of the Supreme.

pranams

srivijaya
30 April 2008, 09:33 AM
Anava mala
Mayiya mala
Karma mala

Hi yajvan,
I find these categories to be a very useful way of investigating ignorance.
Namaste

yajvan
30 April 2008, 01:21 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Hi yajvan,
I find these categories to be a very useful way of investigating ignorance.
Namaste

Namaste srivijaya,
this is also discussed in the following HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2342&highlight=mala

perhaps you may find it of interest, and may wish to comment on this matter.

pranams,

yajvan
29 November 2008, 01:16 PM
hari oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste,

ātman आत्मन् - from an अन् to breathe; at अत् to move ; vā वा to blow ; We know this ātman as the soul, jiva, the essence of SELF. Some know and see this as parātman - the natural extension of Brahman.


What I find most interesting and rewarding to consider is the first sūtra in chapter 1 and chapter 3 of the Śiva sūtra-s use this ātman to define the condition of the individual:
Chapter 1.1
caitanyamātmā

Chapter 3.1
ātmā cittam

The intent of Chapt 1 and Chapter 3 are quite different¹. Without the help of the wise a casual user would not be abe to break the code if you will on this notion. In 2 cases this ātman is used, but transmits different knowledge for one to consider.


In the first sūtra ātmā is used to convey the reality (the essence) of everything i.e. Supreme consciousness, as the Truth of one's status and the essence of all creation.

Yet when we view this ātman in Chapter 3 it seemingly looks different. This ātman at its root can be viewed as ātan. This ātan आतन् is defined as that which extends, stretches over. It applies nicely in both sūtra-s.

For the 1st chapter , 1st sūtra, this stretching and covering suggests Supreme Consciousness extends to all , in all directions, in all beings and non-beings. A nice fit.

But what of sūtra 1 in Chapt 3? Svāmī Lakṣman-jū suggests this word ātan means sātatya¹ gamane ¹ - or who comes and goes, always in movement. How does this apply ? it is the ātman that goes (gama) uninterrupted (sātatya) from birth-to-birth.


In both cases the SELF is there but in two conditions - one as completely independent, svātantrya, full, without boundaries, the other is 'shrunk on all sides' ( Svāmī Lakṣman-jū's words) and goes from birth-to-birth.


But why does this occur? The Spanda kārikā-s ( 17th and 18th kārikā) tell us , in part, that when the reality of your nature is ignored or not realized i.e. the SELF, then the individual becomes dependent on enjoyment ( of the outside world of things) which cannot be refused as we finding them gratifying for a short period. They brig us some level of joy, yet the SELF is still overshadowed by these possessions of things. We then become attached and entangled in these things that can bring pleasure ( sukha), pain (duḥkha), or just more blemishes of moha , which is delusion.

But what delusion do we speak of? Of who we really are. Not this constrained SELF that is bound by length, width, height, time and space, but we are this SELF that is unbounded and exists for all time outside the veils ( wake , dream, sleep) of ordinary existence.

When all agitations (aśuddi or impurity, blemish, perturbations of the mind) end, then the Supreme state ( God Consciousness) is revealed.
Spanda kārikā, 9th sūtra, Chapter 1.

pranams

words

sātatya सातत्य - consistency, uninterruptedness
gamane or gama गम - going, marching, flightiness, going away from
3 chapter's intent - see HDF post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=17379&postcount=28 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=17379&postcount=28)
svātantrya स्वातन्त्र्य- independence; one's own will, of one's own free choice