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Bhakti Yoga Seeker
01 May 2006, 08:47 PM
Since a number of ISKCONites or those who at least defend ISKCON have preached their school and attacked others of different schools, I think it is time to present the other side of the story. I am going to share my experiences with ISKCON which are simply not positive. Note that my experiences here refer to multiple temples.

For starters, if you show a genunine interest in spirituality or advancing yourself, instead of them trying to help you they try to use you and all the while pretending that they help you. For example, the "Krishna Seva" in my opinion is taken to the extreme. It is one thing to teach someone to humble themselves by encouraging them to do some seva around the place. Yet as time goes by you start realizing that you are spending virtually 100% of your time serving them but they are spending 0% of their time serving you.

This caught my attention when every time I would ever ask a question about something or have a legitimate concern, they either could not answer the question or they would simply direct you to chant, do some seva, or read Prabhupada's books. Yet people claiming to be big gurus still could not answer basic questions and often would not even take the time to look at you.

Additionally, I noticed a disturbing hypocrisy between their attitudes toward those who live at the temple and those who live outside. When you express a genuine interest in spirituality, instead of giving you constructive advice they try to control your life. "Move into the temple" is the repeated mantra and if you dare to mention that you have responsibilities outside of the temple such as family or work, they criticize you without even knowing anything about you or your life. It is quite hypocritical for the fact that these temples rely primarily on those working outside of the temple for donations to keep the system running.

Everything I have ever seen has been little more than a show. They keep preaching about chanting the Maha Mantra, giving Gita lectures, and encouraging devotees to do seva, yet they cannot even answer simple questions or spend 5 minutes of quality time listening to your comments or concerns. I am referring to the management as well as live-in devotees when I refer to "they." I have spent years visiting these temples and have become burned out with it. I thought I would give Vaishnavism a chance but from what I have experienced they give it a bad name.

I have observed a cult-like atmosphere where you cannot dare to disagree yet the people in charge clearly aren't qualified. They babble on and on and on about "Bhakti" or "love" yet not once do you ever actually see them practicing it. It is pretty ridiculous that people can claim they are doing loving service by chanting the Maha Mantra yet only want to use other people without helping them. I've never stayed in any of these temples, just lived on the outside but it is very observable. If they have so much "bhakti" then isn't it strange that they are always interested in what you can do for the temple yet the thought of what the temple can do for you is not in their minds?

It is almost like a conspiracy. The second you have some inspiring conversations with other devotees such as in the parking lot outside of the temple or in the hallway or other area, one or more of the live-in devotees come to break up your conversation and ask you to do some seva or participate in their upcoming program yet when you turn around to ask them for some help, they have no time and no interest. At this point they refer you to just chant or read a book. The same goes if you are meditating or chanting. They actually will interrupt you and ask you to help them but again won't spend a minute of their time helping you. Not to mention that you can't chant or meditate as these temple rooms are never quiet but instead full of screaming kids and adult chit-chat.

Not to mention I have seen certain gurus introducted as speakers and when I searched them on the internet, they had spent time in prison on serious felony charges. I won't name names here but it seems like more of them have been in trouble with the law than have not. This includes "cooking the books" or "money laundering" as well as child abuse going back to the 1980s with the gurukulas. Others include selling drugs and possessing illegal firearms.

Last but not least, I don't appreciate the brainwashing that goes on there. I can see to a certain degree that if you live at the temple, you have to follow their rules. What is ridiculous is to be constantly criticized for how you live outside of the temple. For instance, if you say that you watched a great movie last night, their response is "why would you watch a movie instead of chant?" and then babble on about how watching movies is just wasting time in the material world. Same if you have hobbies or other interests that are independent of spirituality. You mention that you like hiking or coin collecting and they state respectively that hiking is a waste of time and that you should just chant and that instead of collecting coins you should give everything you own to the temple and move in. Additionally, they advertise themselves as "non-sectarian" and "all-inclusive" yet they are more sectarian and exclusive than a Southern Baptist church.

A couple more examples: Every time I have stated that I am a Hindu people either say something critical about Hinduism or say that there is no such thing as "Hinduism" or otherwise have their eyes go big. It is hypocritical because Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a Hindu sect. Second, every time I ever ask a question about whether someone has been seen there lately or not and such person happens to be of the opposite sex, they get paranoid and demand to want to know why I am asking about "women" at the temple.

I hate to use the word cult, but everything I have experienced at these temples is just like a cult where everyone has to think the same, act the same, do the same things, and even feel the same. It is a group think mentality where no one can have any opinions or lifestyle that isn't pre-approved by the group. I don't believe that this is proper spirituality. It is one thing for people to believe in the same religion and another thing when they cannot have any outside interests. More examples: If you travel, they cannot figure out why you didn't travel to visit other ISKCON temples; if you visit other temples they cannot imagine that you visited some that weren't ISKCON; if you read books they cannot understand why some of them aren't BBT books; if you hang out with friends outside of the temple they cannot understand why you would not be doing something temple-related; etc.

It is a group think that in my opinion is destructive and parasitic. They go to arms length criticizing anything deemed "material" as "maya" yet I actually realized there is more peacefulness and normalcy having a couple of beers at a local bar than dealing with all the mental cases at the temple. If that doesn't speak for itself about Kali Yuga, I don't know what does. I have actually gone a few times with some temple goers to a bar for a couple of drinks and had really powerful spiritual discussions there and felt like I gained so much more than I would have gained if I had instead gone to the temple where no spiritual discussion would have been possible. Pretty sad.

Some of you may have had different experiences but these are the experiences that I have had. The material world is already pretty bad but after going to these temples and dealing with these people enough times I have realized that the material world in many cases is actually more spiritual than these nut houses. I call it a nut house because every time I go it is almost impossible to have a normal conversation or to even see one person smile and spread some real bhakti instead of just rehearsed propaganda. If you don't know what I mean then what I am saying is that real bhakti would at least include a friendly greeting, smile, and willingness to spend just one minute of their time sharing with you. By rehearsed propaganda, this so called bhakti is basically this: "My mother was killed in a car accident/just go chant and be happy...my wife left me/would you help do the dishes?...I have a headache today/move in and all the pain will go away...I've got to get home to feed the cats/who needs cats when you have Krishna" In other words, no normal conversation, just brainwashed coded responses to everything. ~BYS~

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
01 May 2006, 10:45 PM
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html

The above website gives the "BITE" model to test whether the organization you are a part of is a cult. These letters stand for behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. When the control is considered reasonable it is not a cult. When it is excessive, it is a cult. In other words, any institution has some level of control with all four of these--schools, the workplace, religion, politics, family, etc. But when the control is so excessive that the institution is an addiction and the institution and your life is one and the same, then there may be a problem.

Behavior Control:

1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality

a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations

For live-in devotees, I would say that a, b, and c are not abnormal. For outside devotees, they simply shouldn't tell people how to live life outside of the temple unless they specifically ask for advice. D is not healthy. While six hours of solid and uninterrupted sleep is generally enough, different people's bodies have different needs and since many times sleep is interrupted, six hours is not enough sleep. As for e, I understand that a Brahmin isn't supposed to have personal wealth if he/she is a brahmacharya. However, in this day and age, when the material world is unpredictable and there may be unscrupulous people within the temple, asking someone to give everything they own to the temple when they move in is absurd considering that they may move out in a few years but won't be able to as they would have no money to start a new life again. This is a dangerous form of control in my opinion. As to f, telling a brahmacharya devotee of 20-30 years who has done more seva than one can imagine that he cannot spend two hours of his life watching a movie of his choice (even if outside of the temple) is nuts in an adult world.

2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals

Not necessarily a problem.

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions

This is a problem. Adults should be able to manage their own lives regardless of whether they live in or out of temple. Devotees should not be treated like children where the management should be considered the parents. A live-in devotee should not have to ask permission to visit his dying mother in the hospital.

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors

If the devotee considers everything to be wonderful, this isn't a problem. If the devotee, however, notices some things that aren't to his liking then it is a problem. This 'keep it positive' atmosphere is brainwashing. The second things aren't going normal, they don't want to hear it, see it, or deal with it but would rather just sweep it under the rug.

5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

This is a problem. Apparently when you blow the whistle on their nonsense, they throw you out of the temple. They did this with me when I was just there praying. So I chewed the person out and he called the police (apparently for hurting his feelings). I of course left the area and no police came because no crime was committed. Now the person who called the police has been fired. So there is some justice left in such a nutty environment.

5. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails

Definitely the case. If you even talk about a neutral subject with another devotee, they try to stop you. If you aren't talking about Krishna or something temple-related, they don't want you to speak. They consider such talk as "mundane" "maya" and "material."

6. Rigid rules and regulations

Maybe, maybe not. I have seen both sides here. Asking someone who lives there to do seva and participate in the daily activities only makes sense. Searching their room and listenting to their phone conversations is crossing the line.

7. Need for obedience and dependency

Yes. Once you have given all your finances and belongings to the temple and moved in and then realized that things aren't the way they said they would be, you are trapped as you have no way to get out.

Information Control:

1. Use of deception

a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying

Yes. Two of the temples I have visted to have obvious signs of money laundering.

2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged

a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think

Yes. This must be why they can never spend five minutes of their time having a conversation with you or answering spiritual questions.

3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines

a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what

Yes. It is amazing what live-in devotees do not know. Anyone can go to Google and find out simple things they've been blinded from hearing about for years. The entire GBC is suspicious and appears to be involved in illegal money laundering. In the United States, it is a law that non-profit organizations accurately report their incomes and expenditures. The secretiveness and bizarre figures on annual reports such as "prasad $50,000" or "hundi $100,000" when there hardly is prasad and the hundi is always empty are suspicious. Yet none of the young bhaktas in the organization can see what is right in front of their eyes.

4. Spying on other members is encouraged

a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership

Yes. Apparently I'm already "marked."

5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda

a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources

I don't think this is the case here.

6. Unethical use of confession

a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution

Not necessarily but they expect even those living outside of the temple to be too much of an "open book." They want your entire life story on their desk the day you walk in the door. It is almost like they are looking for a weakness somewhere so that they can "fix" you up.

Thought Control

1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as "Truth"

a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)

Definitely the case. They make comparisons with mutually exclusive concepts. For instance, if you smoke ganja you are considered to be a karmi to them even though you may put a lot more spiritual qualities into practice than the ones doing the criticizing who instead focus more on how much cash is entering the hundi than on practicing Krishna Consciousness. Once again, if more spiritual value is obtained over a couple of beers at a bar and having a great conversation than being ignored for two hours at the temple, what does it say?

2. Adopt "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words".

Yes. "Just chant...just focus on the deities...blah blah blah." Having a critical discussion is impossible as only the same coded phrases are used over and over.

3. Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.

Yes. If your opinions are not identical to those in charge, you are a deviant and "marked." At least that was the case with me and numerous other people I know. Another thing, it seems like you are marked if you come across as being too intelligent. In other words, if you are not easily duped, you are seen as a potential whistleblower to anything that may go on. For instance, someone living there may not see the nonsense that goes on when they are around it all the time yet someone from the outside can see it quite easily. Just like everyone can detect some said person as a heroin addict yet his wife is the last one to find out. That is because all the others are less influenced by the said person.

4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.

a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in "tongues"
f. Singing or humming

Yes. The second you point out stuff that is blatantly wrong (or even illegal) they accuse you of fault-finding. For instance, if you question why the hundi money was placed in a black garbage bag and carried out to a van late at night, they tell you to just chant and not worry about it. Or if you ask why they are hiring illegal immigrants to help out and then suddenly decide to not pay them, they tell you to just go and read a Prabhupada book.

I am not making this stuff up because I just want to attack this institution. The reality is that some undercover police officers really need to slip in and clean this organization up for the welfare of all people.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
01 May 2006, 10:45 PM
5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate

Correct. If you question why such an "enlightened" guru cannot even say a complete thought and why they cannot even be honest about where the money goes, you are seen as a fault-finder. Giving an obvious reality check will be dismissed as "conspiracy theory."

6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful

They say they aren't Hindu yet follow a Hindu tradition. Then they say they are Hindu and encourage Hindus to come to the temple and donate time and money. They say they are non-sectarian yet won't accept any religious practice outside of ISKCON. I actually mentioned chanting some other mantras in addition to the Maha Mantra and before I could even finish the sentence, they already interrupted and said it would be useless. Again, more sectarian than a Southern Baptist church.

Emotional Control

1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings.

Yes. If you are not happy, they cannot understand why. They tell you to just keep chanting as if chanting is the medicine for everything.

2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s.

Yes. They always say there must be something you are doing wrong because you are a fault-finder. You mention that they shouldn't leave the door open at midnight since it is a high-crime neighborhood or that it isn't wise to just leave the gas on the stove unattended and the response is "Krishna will protect us. Don't worry." When you mention that God helps those who help themselves, the response is "Just go and finish your rounds."

3. Excessive use of guilt

I am aware of a woman who was sexually harrassed by temple management. When she complained to the police and the GBC and thus moved out, the new line was that she was the one who was behaving in a way that caused them to taunt her.

If any of you people think I am making all this stuff up about the ISKCON experiences I have had and the people I know who have been involved with them, think again. I would have no qualms repeating the same thing under oath in a court of law.

a. Identity guilt

1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
2. Your family
3. Your past
4. Your affiliations
5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions

Yes. Your entire life is irrelevant to them. Just keep chanting and keep doing what they say. I have actually witnessed how whatever niceness is there suddenly stops as soon as your seva or donations stop. I was also criticized on numerous occasions for having a coffee drinking habit, having a full time job, and not getting up in the morning at 4 am like they do. Note that I never told these people what kind of a Hindu I was or even whether or not I was following their system and I wasn't even living in the temple. Isn't it bizarre to tell someone who doesn't even live there how to live their private lives?

b. Social guilt
c. Historical guilt

Maybe, maybe not. Can't think of any examples.

4. Excessive use of fear

a. Fear of thinking independently
b. Fear of the "outside" world
c. Fear of enemies
d. Fear of losing one’s "salvation"
e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
f. Fear of disapproval

Yes. They kept saying "move in to the temple" and referring to how in the material world everyone is crazy. They are pretty much correct on the second part. Most people are crazy although in different ways. The sad part was that the people on the "inside" seem even more nuts than the people on the outside.

5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.

Not necessarily but it seems like you are programmed to be happy even if you aren't. If you aren't as energetic in the bhajan as they prefer, they notice.

6. Ritual and often public confession of "sins".

Haven't seen this.

7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

I never lived on the inside so I wouldn't know but I could see how over time this could develop. If a person dumps all of their family and friends and shuts off association with all people that aren't inside the group and then suddenly wants to go back into the outside world, like a prisoner finally getting out of prison, I could see the fear of not finding one's nitch. Hence, another form of control.

a. No happiness or fulfillment "outside"of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; "10,000 reincarnations"; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: "weak"; "undisciplined"; "unspiritual"; "worldly"; "brainwashed by family, counselors"; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.

Yes to a certain degree. They act like their small ashram is the only safe haven on earth and cannot figure out why you don't want in or if you are in cannot figure out why you want out. They cannot figure out why if you want spirituality, that you won't move in and become a part of their group yet it is actually more fulfilling spiritually to stay in the material society and live a balanced lifestyle. In other words it is much easier to meditate and pray in your home while living the life you prefer without having someone constantly tell you how to pray or meditate. Likewise, it is more conducive to growth when one can consciously choose not to eat meat, gamble, drink, smoke, or have sex than to have a group of people monitoring and controlling them so that they couldn't do those things even if they wanted to.

Enough said for now. Notice that I am not calling anyone a name nor am I saying that this is true with every temple, every devotee, or that what I have experienced with ISKCON is the same as everyone else's experiences. The reason I am bringing up these critical views is because I feel that people need to have both sides of the story and are entired to the whole truth and not just some of the truth. For decades, people have advertised this group as the luxury of spirituality when that is simply not the case. There has been so much criminal activity in the organization since the 1970s that anyone with half a brain should proceed with serious caution when involving themselves with it.

Read the book "Betrayal of the Spirit" or "Monkey on a Stick" for an alternative view on how this organization isn't as perfect as people would like to believe. I can accept something not being perfect but these books describe criminal activity on the massive scale including rapes, robberies, drug trafficking, child molestation, and murder. Also note that no where am I saying that the organization is "evil" but numerous people pass this organization off as if it is virtually perfect and faultness. Most new bhaktas that join in have no idea about the long history of crime in the organization. That is immoral and dangerous and I will not hesitate to blow the whistle if I see harmful activity going on. Again, people deserve to see both sides of the organization and not just the side that the organization wants you to hear. ~BYS~

Singhi Kaya
02 May 2006, 12:54 AM
Namaskar BYS,

I have seen that most organizations and ashrams post the founder degrade into some kind of money making operation. These happens with even small ashrams of great god realized souls. The persons who take control just use the establishment of the Guru and his teachings to use for their vested purpose. This is sad but bound to happen in this Age. Let us say that even a self-realized guru cannot stop such karmic consequences. So when searching for spirituality~one needs to search a teacher, not a organization. A true teacher often opens an organization just to dissiminate teachings in a slightly organized way. After his death~if the persons who takes charge is worthy of being a teacher, only then should we approach the oraganization. This is true for any saint however famous and God-realized. Sangha or Organization is necessary in kali yuga, but as far as spirituality is concerned, the focal point is teachers and teachings. In politics or social service the organization is more important. Spiritual organizations with a political agenda or social commitment will be less susceptable to getting degraded~because members have a real commitment there. Pure spiritual organizations stinks most of the time when the Guru is gone. This is my observation.

The case of ISKCON may be the above effect very much confounded by a twisted version of vaishnavism. Certainly the cult characters you describe I have never seen. Looks like something is fundamentally different. I have seen other hindu ashrams becoming money making racket after the founder, but they were not cults~very open like any hindu organization. Some of your points go much beyond fraud (spiritual and otherwise) and very much border on crime!!!

kimtadbrahma
02 May 2006, 04:50 AM
I would agree with much of what has been said here although I think the terms cult and brainwashing are pretty meaningless. ISKCON is an assertive religious organisation out to make converts, but if that is not what you want then you can always leave. And what does brainwashing mean? To preach to someone and convince him of your views is not brainwashing any more than watching a movie and becoming caught up with its ethos. In fact films and TV are probably more effective than preaching at brainwashing people. And I know many members of ISKCON who are serious Vaishnavas and are devout and learned. It is not for me, but they seem to be inspired by that form of dharma.

The main point I would make is really to agree with what is posted above. Religious organisations have an inherent tendency towards power, control and materialism. Hierarchies seem to be the antithesis of spirituality because they offer the most enticing form of degrading temptation, that of power and status. In an institution we can wield power over others and gain influence and status. I have come to the view that religion should be practised at an individual level; listen to what others have to say, meditate and reflect on it but avoid the institution. There is too much scope there for degradation of the spirit. Perhaps the ideal is a sangha where like minded persons gather together to share their realisations, but informally and without leadership, posts or status. It is hard to think of a religious institution that at some point has not descended into the very depths of materialism, the very antithesis of its stated objective.

ramkish42
02 May 2006, 02:00 PM
I too felt that, not in ISKCON but in 6th to 8th standards.

I used to go to school to find a big scrap, a room full of innocents who knew nothing of the subject, still in the room with lot of expectation. Somebody mother or father would had died few days before, but will be in the classroom as if he is going to achieve something great. Somebody father would had desisted them, still this guy is in the class room.

When I had some doubts none of the students could help me with. When I ask my teachers, do not ask me, real scraps, simple answers, THAT PART IS NOT IN YOUR CURRICULUM. Many a times I hear teachers say learn from the student who has got 1st rank or 2nd rank and so, when you ask them - same rehearsed propaganda - DO YOUR HOMEWORK; DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH TV; SPEND MORE TIME WITH TEXTBOOKS; TAKE TUITIONS (as if they are going to teach me something new in the Tuitions); IF IN DOUBT JUST BYHEART THE TEXTS FOR MARKS AND CLARIFY YOUR DOUBT LATER (that later never ever occurs). I tried even with teachers, they too repeated the same propaganda

Then I found a new thing. It is not with the school and not with fellows but the person to whom I am putting the question is the wrong person. Now I had two things to do when I had a query - 1. When I know the person is a wrong person, do not ask him for guideline; 2. Try to good and smart so that I will find a person who can answer my questions (Unless I fall in line with other fellows, this will be impossible for explicit disobeyance will be treated otherwise)

Much later I found few teachers who never visited my classrooms are good enough to answer my queries. Even the toughest questions - my 7th standard science book said newton did feather and guenia experiment but my 8th standard book said it is Galileo who did that, while other teachers cleared my doubt saying it is rubbish, the very few I found clarrified it - It is Galileo, but I asked what about the text, they said, If you want truth it is Galileo, but if you choose to get marks in 7th standard it is Newton. Luckily I was in 9th standard hence had no interest to align

Similar is the case with ISKCON. When you have access to very few and you know they are worth for, it is not the school nor its teachers but the very occupants who are at fault and person who is questioning them

The very school which I said a scrap rooms, made me a lawyer giving me sound fundamentals. It is this scrap school which taught me what to do, when to do, how to do. It is the same scrap school which has refined my argumenting style which helped me with my law course and practise

Now I find some of schoolmates are in good position but many, of course, are dwindling.

All I learnt is, if the school teachers are not for you, take only what it can give you and do not pose any questions; When you find right teachers take the maximum out of them.

All the more it is also important to note, while doing a graduate course, you can visit schools just to see what is going on but not to educate yourself on basics again.

If the ISKCON is meant for foreigners in a foreign land, there is no point in expecting them to give us wonderful ideas to reach Moksha immediately. Why ISKCON, no one can solve if someones mother dies, if someones wife has left him, if you have headache. If someones wife has left, two choices - divorce her or give a police compalint as the case suits. If you have a headache visit a doctor if it chronic or just take a tablet. There is no point in me going to temple and cry in front of lord for I am having a headache. There is no point in cursing the preists of the temple who ask me whether I can help them with their dishes while I am reporting headache to them for they are not doctors.

Spiritualism is not a panacea for all world materialistic problems. If somebodys mother has died, that sorrow haunts him, why ISKCON no one can give another mother or solve this problem materialistically but I can divert his mind from the sorrow - Keep repeating this (Sloka) till you are tired and do it from the bottom of my heart - does not this leaves ones heart little bit light

My wife has left me - If I am worried about quenching by basic instincts ISKCON is no place; but if I am worried about the haunting sorrow of that, I can very well help with the dishes and forget the sorrow for some time concentrating on something else. Who knows - probably doing with the dishes might help me in being a better father to my children whom my wife had left with me - why dishes; I will wash clothes, cook food and can keep my children happy

Now to summarise I can see two problems

1. Wrong persons are enquired upon for abstract queries
2. Wrong solutions sought at wrong time at the wrong place

Again, I want to say this, every person views changes and differs. Inspite of saying so much, I do not visit ISKCON without any work relations for I have my own Philosphies and practises.

Having said that, I just want to add the following(the following has nothing to do with the subject of the thread, but I am giving it just as an example unrelated to the thread)

Wolf might attack a sheep flock; it is the duty of the shepherd to drive the wolf out. When this happens wolf complaints that shepherd is violating law of nature - wolf's vey existence by denying it food; wherein sheep do praise the shepherd for protecting its life thus protecting the law of nature - right to live; Only the shepherd knows when he is going to kill the sheep for his own food thus is obliged to drive the wolf and protect the sheep for his own interest. This is world. Every one have their own view of things. What I had submitted is my own view of what is happening

Jai shree krishna

satay
02 May 2006, 07:13 PM
Now to summarise I can see two problems

1. Wrong persons are enquired upon for abstract queries
2. Wrong solutions sought at wrong time at the wrong place


responsibility rests with both the seeker and the organization especially if the organization is selling itself as the "experts that know the truth".

How are the westerners supposed to know that the version of the truth an organization is selling is a twisted one (i am not referring to iskcon necessarilary) when the westerners have not had any contact with the original teachings? Forget westerners most of the pseudo hindus even don't have any idea of the original teachings and just know some politically charged translations.

By I do agree with your "buyers beware" message. That doesn't mean that the seller that sells the junk is right in doing so.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
02 May 2006, 08:39 PM
And what does brainwashing mean? To preach to someone and convince him of your views is not brainwashing any more than watching a movie and becoming caught up with its ethos.

The problem that arises is when the institution says one thing and does another. In other words, when the institution presents a "picture perfect" view to those outside of it and encourages them to join. Once they join, then they realize that what is going on in the inside is not at all similar to what was presented to them before they joined. The only way the institution can keep the truth from getting out is through brainwashing in such case. This basically involves constantly trying to convince the person inside the organization that it is a great thing even when it is clearly not. I have seen this in ISKCON but it certainly happens in many other organizations. Just like a stage play, the audience can only see what is going on when the curtain is open. When the curtain is shut, who knows what is happening behind the scenes.

In the case of a temple, the curtain will be open to "reveal" wonderful prasad, bhajans, pujas, a big clean nice looking temple room, beautiful deities, and an image of renounced monks who are seen as wise souls. However, "behind the scenes" some of the devotees may be excessively over-worked and the "holy men" may not be so holy. One may be skimming the donation money while the other might have a drug habit. Of course, if such duplicity is the case, group A has to keep group B from finding out and thus group A has to generally keep group B so busy that they don't have time to notice and then if they do notice, accuse them of fault-finding. I was only using examples here. Regardless, I have always felt that ISKCON does not present a consistent depiction of what it truly is. In every case that I have observed, what is advertised and what is reality are actually quite different things.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
02 May 2006, 08:53 PM
Ramkish, I see what you are saying. However, ISKCON sells itself as the answer for spiritual life. They also sell themselves as experts on spiritual matters. If they are not going to uphold their end of the bargain and fall far short of what they advertise, then they are not a reputable organization. Likewise, people are not as dumb as we want to think. If a business turns out to sell bad products after the people believed they would be good, less and less people buy them and they may go out of business. ISKCON in the past 20 years has been quite dead compared to what it was in the 60s and 70s. What does this say?

Ram
03 May 2006, 06:44 AM
ISKCON as known within my own town in India, has earned a notorious name. People dont feel comfortable with even the name, it has a number of scandals behind it. I am told that many young lads are hijacked from their parents to serve in their ashram, and I know many a parent who has lost his son to this group. This is a serious thing that can be observed with all religions associated with a strict monotheism, because the brainwashing effects are severe. I am sure that Lord Krishna himself would not be pleased with so much hype and commercialization in his name. I have certainly come across many ISKCONites who have argued that mainstream Hinduism is corrupted while their religion alone is the true religion. I never seem to understand their logic of placing Krishna(based on a superficial reading of some scriptures) above Vishnu, while other Vaishnavas clearly percieve no such differences. I was even told by an ISKCONite that I would just get Vaikunta whereas Hare Krishnas go to some higher place called Goloka - I just had a good laugh. Whenever a religion promises you something better than others, you know their motives.:)

This may not be the true motives behind the founding of this religion, however, there is no doubt that it has become degenerated. I think I agree with all points made in the OP. Simply converting the whole world into Krishna devotees wont help, it needs to be done in a manner without interfering with the lives of people, without hurting others, and only if they are deeply interested.

ramkish42
03 May 2006, 11:34 AM
I am always on the wrong side with the moderators, now I have both moderators replying to me - God save Ramkish reputation :D


responsibility rests with both the seeker and the organization especially if the organization is selling itself as the "experts that know the truth".

Shri Satay, every organisation sells itself as experts that know the truth. When forming an organisation this is an inevitable problem. Many people who visit Kanchi Kamakoti peetam said this. Many people who visit Srirangam Jeer said this. There were serious allegations on Puttabarthi Saibaba, Kalki Ashram and Mel maruvatthur peetam. I have a set of paper cuttings that gives allegations on Hindu Organisations as such.

The present case is not ISKCON in real not their vaishnavism in real but expectations of every individual member of this forum from ISKCON. When I visit to a place I go there with an expectation, when it is not met, I agree I will be upset. Now I have two choices 1. Try to know that the organisation is really; 2. If it not matches with me I should not go there

If one does not likes ISKCON stop visiting, simple as that

Now, I lack competence to educate a person of calibre like Satay or BYS or any other person, but I prefer to remind you what you know but verily forgotten.

Vaishnavism is verily spun around service orientation. This is sharp contrast with Advaiti philosophy where one feels he is god, where in in vaishnavism one feels he is a slave of lord and his servants. Let me give you an analogy

One advaitin visited a temple and wrote on the wall - SOHAM (I am him); a vaishnavite came and saw, felt it is wrong, instead of erasing he simply added "Daa" to it, now it read - DAASOHAM (I am his servant), advaitin returned back and saw his vaakhya got spoiled, again instead of erasing he simply added "SA" to it, now it read - SADAASOHAM (I am eternally him), Vaishnavite returned, saw and added another "Daa" to it, now it read - DAASA DAASOHAM (I am the servant of his servants)

Both the people in this are intelligent people but verily displayed their tolerance and this also talks about vaishnav faith. Vaishnav always feels his is a slave of the lord and a servant of lord's servant. Hence, before entering ISKCON or any other vaishnav organisation, let us be prepared to do service and not to expect any service

ISKCON is good in making people to serve - Whom do you serve, if not a great person but we are serving a human, we are of service to nature, we are serving the temple. They make it blunt and ask one to do service, for that is how a vaishnav starts his quest.

Many of us, including me, feel that having finished graduation, simply want to command respect in ISKCON kind of organisation, wherein, they do not know me, they do not know what is my knowledge, what I am capable of, so they start from the basics. Unlike schooling, I cannot carry a certificate saying I HAVE FINISHED BASIC SERVICING and force ISKCON to continue with other levels. My mastery in patanjali Yoga or Narada Bhakti sutra is of no consideration in the very begining. Either I have prove myself to them or wait for the time.

While advocating tolerance to all, we verily forget to show it in our practise by this kind of threads


How are the westerners supposed to know that the version of the truth an organization is selling is a twisted one (i am not referring to iskcon necessarilary) when the westerners have not had any contact with the original teachings? Forget westerners most of the pseudo hindus even don't have any idea of the original teachings and just know some politically charged translations.
Shri Satayji, can I request you not to use this word. Now you too join the group which assumes something of hinduism is wrong and something is correct. If ISKCON is politically charged, I want to know what you say is correct and orginal teachings. Does the view you have, should necessarily be correct for other vaishnavs or other hindus in common.


By I do agree with your "buyers beware" message. That doesn't mean that the seller that sells the junk is right in doing so.
My idea is not only buyers beware but also, let us not ask for household provisions in a medical shop.

Furthermore, if Shri Satayji feels ISKCON is selling junk then tackle it in proper way. Call Shri Prabhupada for a debate and prove it to him that he is selling junk

On the other hand, say, If I used the similar phrase, selling junk, to a tantric practitioner or advaitin - sringeri peetam, what will be your first response as a moderator, same hold good for you being a member.

ramkish42
03 May 2006, 12:08 PM
Ramkish, I see what you are saying. However, ISKCON sells itself as the answer for spiritual life. They also sell themselves as experts on spiritual matters. If they are not going to uphold their end of the bargain and fall far short of what they advertise, then they are not a reputable organization. Likewise, people are not as dumb as we want to think. If a business turns out to sell bad products after the people believed they would be good, less and less people buy them and they may go out of business. ISKCON in the past 20 years has been quite dead compared to what it was in the 60s and 70s. What does this say?

Who has destroyed Hare Rama Hare Krishna, it is verily hindus themselves. When we are happy with some hindus drink wine, eat maamsa, in the very name of religion, while practising tolerance to such Hindus, we successfully condemned Hare Rama Hare Krishna for wrongful practises.

Now we have started again with ISKCON.

Now, behind the stage, name an organisation which is picture perfect. Name an organisation which practises the same as what they preach. I find nothing. Every organisation as some over worked person and few holy men are not so very holy. What happened to sex allegation levied upon Puttabarthi Saibaba and what happened to abduction allegations levied on Kalki Ashram, few things escapes out for want of evidence and few so called holy men get convicted. Even after getting convicted, such ashrams which has courted such false holy men are still functioning.

After all these, what happened to the tolerance we were preaching. Why no one spells out what ISKCON as to teach to their disciples. What do you think is lacking in ISKCON - All I can see is that ISKCON interpretations does not match with our pre-conceived ideas on hinduism.

Had we ever made provisions that Monistic view need not to be the only correct philosophy - Do we really forget for all dualist gurus are blessed too

Now, if I post a similar stuff condemning Kanchi Kamakoti Seer and mutt and Premananda a seer who belongs Saaktha sect of Hinduism, will you tolerate this as a moderator. What happened to that moderator who said let us not condemn any sect as wrong, bogus etc or Is that this thread is out of purview of the moderator

The purpose of this post should be what could ISKCON do to change now

Otherwise, if the purpose of this thread is to condemn ISKCON or closing ISKCON down, then request moderators to show me the difference between so called intentions of Vaishnavs and the very moderators, where the very moderators want to put a full stop to a vaishnav sect

ramkish42
03 May 2006, 12:24 PM
Who has destroyed Hare Rama Hare Krishna, it is verily hindus themselves. When we are happy with some hindus drink wine, eat maamsa, in the very name of religion, while practising tolerance to such Hindus, we successfully condemned Hare Rama Hare Krishna for wrongful practises.

Now we have started again with ISKCON.

Now, behind the stage, name an organisation which is picture perfect. Name an organisation which practises the same as what they preach. I find nothing. Every organisation as some over worked person and few holy men are not so very holy. What happened to sex allegation levied upon Puttabarthi Saibaba and what happened to abduction allegations levied on Kalki Ashram, few things escapes out for want of evidence and few so called holy men get convicted. Even after getting convicted, such ashrams which has courted such false holy men are still functioning.

After all these, what happened to the tolerance we were preaching. Why no one spells out what ISKCON as to teach to their disciples. What do you think is lacking in ISKCON - All I can see is that ISKCON interpretations does not match with our pre-conceived ideas on hinduism.

Had we ever made provisions that Monistic view need not to be the only correct philosophy - Do we really forget for all dualist gurus are blessed too

Now, if I post a similar stuff condemning Kanchi Kamakoti Seer and mutt and Premananda a seer who belongs Saaktha sect of Hinduism, will you tolerate this as a moderator. What happened to that moderator who said let us not condemn any sect as wrong, bogus etc or Is that this thread is out of purview of the moderator

The purpose of this post should be what could ISKCON do to change now

Otherwise, if the purpose of this thread is to condemn ISKCON or closing ISKCON down, then request moderators to show me the difference between so called intentions of Vaishnavs and the very moderators, where the very moderators want to put a full stop to a vaishnav sect
Post two and three is common of all religious organisations including christian and Jain organisations

I would like to remind the readers we live in a country where we even accused Shri Mother Theresa as spy of USA. I can see none of the religious organisation can escape such allegations

If we see express violation of law, as a lawyer I suggest all hindus to give a police complaint

Jai shree krishna

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
03 May 2006, 10:03 PM
I am always on the wrong side with the moderators, now I have both moderators replying to me - God save Ramkish reputation :D


For the second time, moderators also post as members. It is unnecessary to refer to us as moderators when simply participating in a thread along with everyone else. This is common sense and I can't figure out why you didn't get it the first time. If we are posting as a moderator, we will post a note saying so.




Shri Satay, every organisation sells itself as experts that know the truth. When forming an organisation this is an inevitable problem. Many people who visit Kanchi Kamakoti peetam said this. Many people who visit Srirangam Jeer said this. There were serious allegations on Puttabarthi Saibaba, Kalki Ashram and Mel maruvatthur peetam. I have a set of paper cuttings that gives allegations on Hindu Organisations as such.



You are making alibis to divert attention away from the subject at hand. The topic of this thread isn't concerned about those other organizations. The topic is about ISKCON and you should not be trying excuse it by posting such alibis.




The present case is not ISKCON in real not their vaishnavism in real but expectations of every individual member of this forum from ISKCON. When I visit to a place I go there with an expectation, when it is not met, I agree I will be upset. Now I have two choices 1. Try to know that the organisation is really; 2. If it not matches with me I should not go there

If one does not likes ISKCON stop visiting, simple as that



True, but you are still making excuses. It is understandable that if one tries something and doesn't like it, then they go elsewhere. The problem here is that ISKCON is missionary and most of the people that end up there were preached at. ISKCON comes to us, we don't go to it. ISKCON appears in public streets and advertises a certain image as to what it is. Then when people go to it they see that it is not what they said it was. Some people see this on day one. Others don't realize the truth until years have gone by. Just as you are telling us the "buyer beware" message, people also have the right to "blow the whistle" on a company that puts out a bad business deal.




Now, I lack competence to educate a person of calibre like Satay or BYS or any other person, but I prefer to remind you what you know but verily forgotten.

Vaishnavism is verily spun around service orientation. This is sharp contrast with Advaiti philosophy where one feels he is god, where in in vaishnavism one feels he is a slave of lord and his servants. Let me give you an analogy

One advaitin visited a temple and wrote on the wall - SOHAM (I am him); a vaishnavite came and saw, felt it is wrong, instead of erasing he simply added "Daa" to it, now it read - DAASOHAM (I am his servant), advaitin returned back and saw his vaakhya got spoiled, again instead of erasing he simply added "SA" to it, now it read - SADAASOHAM (I am eternally him), Vaishnavite returned, saw and added another "Daa" to it, now it read - DAASA DAASOHAM (I am the servant of his servants)

Both the people in this are intelligent people but verily displayed their tolerance and this also talks about vaishnav faith. Vaishnav always feels his is a slave of the lord and a servant of lord's servant. Hence, before entering ISKCON or any other vaishnav organisation, let us be prepared to do service and not to expect any service



You are again changing the subject and derailing the thread. The topic is ISKCON. It is not Advaita vs. Vaishnava which is a ridiculous comparison like comparing Christianity to church. ?????????????

Your last line is essentially supporting parasitic religion. The idea that everyone serve some big institution but that the institution has no obligation to serve those who are serving it. If this is the case of ISKCON, then it is time someone call the IRS so that they can remove the "non-profit" and "tax-exempt" statuses away from ISKCON and start treating them just like any other business that has to pay taxes. Again, if they are going to advertise that they are here to provide a spiritual environment and spiritual instruction to the community, convince everyone to donate money and time, and then have no reason to uphold their end of the bargain, they are a bogus organization. At least in the U.S., non-profit organizations have to have mission statements, report their earnings and expenditures, and keep to their purpose. I might be on to something here...




ISKCON is good in making people to serve - Whom do you serve, if not a great person but we are serving a human, we are of service to nature, we are serving the temple. They make it blunt and ask one to do service, for that is how a vaishnav starts his quest.



I certainly agree with you that people pursuing spiritual life (regardless of tradition or even religion) need to adopt a serving mindset. However, *everyone* that is a part of the institution needs to serve. If Group A is serving and Group B is taking, then you have a parasitic organization. Legally, if people donate their money to a non-profit organization, the organization has to spend the money in a way that will benefit the people donating it and in congruence with its mission. Thus, if people donate $10,000 for a deity installation and the deity is installed and the cost is reasonably comparable, then that is a win-win form of serving. People donate their money to the organization and the organization uses it to everyone's benefit. However, if the organization pockets half of the money and uses it on secretive escapades, that is not only unethical but it is illegal. I am not saying ISKCON does this but essentially you are saying that we need to serve it without expecting it to serve us. If that is what you wish for, I assume you also believe that ISKCON should not be tax-exempt.

Any of us know that there are levels within the institution. You have the temple visitors, the regular attendees, the outside donors, those who do a lot of seva but live outside, those who are live-in devotees, the internal management, and then the upper management (GBC). For a successful organization, ALL of the groups have to "serve." Sadly, there are key groups here which seem to take instead of serve--the management. There are books written on this stuff that describes the activities of the "takers" going on for decades.




Many of us, including me, feel that having finished graduation, simply want to command respect in ISKCON kind of organisation, wherein, they do not know me, they do not know what is my knowledge, what I am capable of, so they start from the basics. Unlike schooling, I cannot carry a certificate saying I HAVE FINISHED BASIC SERVICING and force ISKCON to continue with other levels. My mastery in patanjali Yoga or Narada Bhakti sutra is of no consideration in the very begining. Either I have prove myself to them or wait for the time.



You are continuing to make alibis. Apparently, you didn't comprehend some of the key points I made in the OP. Nobody is asking ISKCON to go to arms lenghts to "serve" someone they don't even know. What one would at least expect, however, is that at least one person from the management or at least a live-in devotee take the time to answer basic questions to a newcomer or at the bare minimum at least acknowledge that a newcomer has walked through the door and greet them accoridingly. Note the word "basic." Again, we have duplicity here. The organization will go out into the streets distributing books and talking to everyone that walks by yet when one of those people show up to the "Sunday program" that was advertised, they are conveniently "lost" in the crowd. I have seen people standing around many times with no one to take interest in them. What ends up happening is that other outsiders talk to them. This results in the blind leading the blind concept. Outside devotees have to help other outside devotees while the inside devotees are playing their games.




While advocating tolerance to all, we verily forget to show it in our practise by this kind of threads



Where exactly have I not been tolerant here? :confused:




Shri Satayji, can I request you not to use this word. Now you too join the group which assumes something of hinduism is wrong and something is correct. If ISKCON is politically charged, I want to know what you say is correct and orginal teachings. Does the view you have, should necessarily be correct for other vaishnavs or other hindus in common.



I have no idea what you are saying in the above paragraph. It doesn't even seem like a complete thought. :confused:




My idea is not only buyers beware but also, let us not ask for household provisions in a medical shop.

Furthermore, if Shri Satayji feels ISKCON is selling junk then tackle it in proper way. Call Shri Prabhupada for a debate and prove it to him that he is selling junk



You are speaking words that are unintelligible. What on earth are you talking about? This is gibberish that doesn't even contain a complete thought. As to your last sentence, you are requesting that we have a debate with someone who is no longer alive. :confused:




On the other hand, say, If I used the similar phrase, selling junk, to a tantric practitioner or advaitin - sringeri peetam, what will be your first response as a moderator, same hold good for you being a member.

Do you need some help with something?

I cannot converse with someone who isn't even stating complete thoughts. ~BYS~

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
03 May 2006, 10:36 PM
Who has destroyed Hare Rama Hare Krishna, it is verily hindus themselves. When we are happy with some hindus drink wine, eat maamsa, in the very name of religion, while practising tolerance to such Hindus, we successfully condemned Hare Rama Hare Krishna for wrongful practises.



As usual with everything you post, the minute someone points out something you cannot defend, you either change the subject, make up an alibi, or blame someone else. If ISKCON is so weak that Hindus can destroy it by drinking some wine, then perhaps the organization wasn't meant to be in the first place. Again, you are comparing two different things that have nothing to do with each other. What on earth does drinking wine have anything at all to do with chanting "Hare Rama Hare Krishna"? One is a mind-altering beverage and the other is a mantra. I am really curious to know how Hindus drinking wine have caused the death and destruction of the Maha Mantra and ISKCON.

Additionally, you have demonstrated you don't know the definition of the word "tolerance" even after I already explained it to someone else here on this forum. If you cannot look it up in the dictionary I can tell you. Tolerance means dealing with something you disagree with in a mature fashion, often by simply ignoring it. Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance. You can tolerate Hindus drinking wine even though you don't accept it. No one is asking ISKCON to accept the things it disagrees with. Merely tolerating something doesn't mean going against your own personal values.

Last but not least, I'd like to know why you have stated that Hindus are drinking wine "in the name of religion" without providing evidence to support your claim. This isn't even on topic so I suggest you take such topics to another thread.




Now we have started again with ISKCON.

Now, behind the stage, name an organisation which is picture perfect. Name an organisation which practises the same as what they preach. I find nothing. Every organisation as some over worked person and few holy men are not so very holy. What happened to sex allegation levied upon Puttabarthi Saibaba and what happened to abduction allegations levied on Kalki Ashram, few things escapes out for want of evidence and few so called holy men get convicted. Even after getting convicted, such ashrams which has courted such false holy men are still functioning.



No one is asking ISKCON or any other organization to be perfect but if the organization is going to draw in millions of people and take in billions of dollars, they should at least be more than halfway there.




After all these, what happened to the tolerance we were preaching. Why no one spells out what ISKCON as to teach to their disciples. What do you think is lacking in ISKCON - All I can see is that ISKCON interpretations does not match with our pre-conceived ideas on hinduism.



Again, you are not making any sense. You do not know what the definition of tolerance is as you aren't using it properly. The questions you asked here were already addressed in the OP.




Had we ever made provisions that Monistic view need not to be the only correct philosophy - Do we really forget for all dualist gurus are blessed too

Now, if I post a similar stuff condemning Kanchi Kamakoti Seer and mutt and Premananda a seer who belongs Saaktha sect of Hinduism, will you tolerate this as a moderator. What happened to that moderator who said let us not condemn any sect as wrong, bogus etc or Is that this thread is out of purview of the moderator



No where have we said you cannot debate or post criticism as long as it is context and kept free of personal attacks. No where in my posts have I called ISKCON evil, called it any names, and I never claimed that my experiences were the same for everyone. I simply described my personal experiences, included the experiences of some people I know who were involved with it, and also shared that there is some information out there such as books about it. I don't see how this contradicts our moderation policy. I am not slandering the organization. I am simply saying what my experiences have been which were mostly negative. I am not saying these are the case with everyone.

If you have experiences with the other organizations you have referred to, we don't have a problem with you debating and posting your criticism as long as they are also kept free from name-calling, personal attacks, and have some sort of foundation just like I have done with this thread here.

The rules simply state not to post bigotry or debate to the point of derailing threads and insulting others. No where have we said that you cannot post your disagreements. Sadly, as with the other thread it seems that one group simply "disagrees" while the other "insults." We believe disagreement and debate is fine as long as is based on some form of evidence (such as a personal experience) and not just out-of-context preaching and labeling.




The purpose of this post should be what could ISKCON do to change now

Otherwise, if the purpose of this thread is to condemn ISKCON or closing ISKCON down, then request moderators to show me the difference between so called intentions of Vaishnavs and the very moderators, where the very moderators want to put a full stop to a vaishnav sect

You would know what the purpose of this thread was if you actually read it. It is titled "My experiences with ISKCON." No where does it say that I am supporting shutting it down. I encourage others to also post their experiences--positive and negative.

~BYS~

satay
03 May 2006, 10:55 PM
Where exactly have I not been tolerant here? :confused:



I have no idea what you are saying in the above paragraph. It doesn't even seem like a complete thought. :confused:



You are speaking words that are unintelligible. What on earth are you talking about? This is gibberish that doesn't even contain a complete thought. As to your last sentence, you are requesting that we have a debate with someone who is no longer alive. :confused:



Do you need some help with something?

I cannot converse with someone who isn't even stating complete thoughts. ~BYS~

namaste,
The post was addressed to me I think and the tolerance bit is related to the 'superiority complex' thread I started.

I ignored the post since it's not worth my time responding to it. Clearly, the poster is not on the same page as your OP or he has not taken the time to understand it. I couldn't say what it is for sure but in any case, I ignored his response as "normal iskcon support hand waving".

ramkish42
04 May 2006, 05:32 AM
You are making alibis to divert attention away from the subject at hand. The topic of this thread isn't concerned about those other organizations. The topic is about ISKCON and you should not be trying excuse it by posting such alibis.

I am seeing this often from BYS - ALIBI. However Shri Seeker really has missed out the post for which this reply was made was addressed to Shri Satayji as a reply to his general post taking no reference to ISKCON. Shri Satayji clearly made it, he is making his comment relating not only to ISKCON but general. While replying to a common reply covering all organisation, I do not need a person to tell me I am taking an ALIBI.


True, but you are still making excuses.
Beg your pardon. Excuses and escapism are not part of my posting. Instead, I would like remind Shri Seeker about a person who has seen money laundering, drug addicts etc yet not informed law enforecement authorities on such events

One of the biggest excuse for unsupported fact in this kind of forum is - I SWEAR. I Swear I had seen it, I Swear I know it, I swear I read it, what else, How a person like Ramkish is going to object what verily known to one and only one, who swears there is money laundering, who swears few take service of others, who swears there are drug addicts; When it is said almost all organisations has such problems - again - I swear ramkish is making excuses.

Ask proof - the person who swears has nothing to offer but verily one more swear statement - GO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF, I SWEAR YOU WILL KNOW and adds further EVERY ONE KNOWS, they are still unaware I am also part of that every one, still I have not seen. Again, simple, Call me nonsense, etc, it will seem that point is proved

This is nothing but categorical hatered on a particular sect.

What is purpose of this thread - check for unaimed shoot outs. Every post that courts negative view on ISKCON is verily unsupported and there is great need of evidence. Make Allegations, Canvass people to make similar allegations , then what, where do we want to conclude this thread?


Just as you are telling us the "buyer beware" message, people also have the right to "blow the whistle" on a company that puts out a bad business deal.
Please blow the whistle, but blow it with adequate support. File a police case if you had money laundering. Get IRS in action when you see major problem in accounts. WHERE IS THE ACTION? I see nothing. Merely come to this forum and make allegation, and feel as if some thing great is done on that. Yes, If someone hates ISKCON I have nothing to do with that but when someone make a compliant on criminal overt act, better we take up action with appropriate authorities. Negligence to take up shows 1 We do not adequately carry courage; 2 We do not have adequate proof and 3 We do not bother


Your last line is essentially supporting parasitic religion. The idea that everyone serve some big institution but that the institution has no obligation to serve those who are serving it.
This is a dual standard and the main hidden statement is "When Shri Seeker makes a statement, it should be correct". When I make a statement saying one sect is parasitic, how do moderators treat this. I am not making a excuse or making alibi, but asking modertor BYS to take a look into what member BYS has said


Legally, if people donate their money to a non-profit organization, the organization has to spend the money in a way that will benefit the people donating it and in congruence with its mission.
Benefit for whom? Legally If I donate and the organisation has to spend it to benefit me then it is not donation made by me but purchase of service made.

Money has to be spend on cause mentioned by the organisation. This includes running the organisation as such.


However, if the organization pockets half of the money and uses it on secretive escapades, that is not only unethical but it is illegal.
More and more allegations. What is this escapade and what evidence do we carry for this


I am not saying ISKCON does this but essentially you are saying that we need to serve it without expecting it to serve us. If that is what you wish for, I assume you also believe that ISKCON should not be tax-exempt.
That choice is yours. Not expecting an organisation to serve I am not sure how it is realted with Tax-Exempt. I suppose the intention of this query to tickle me for your assumption says I support ISKCON with my life and blood. Instead, I demand logic of your post

Request you to pls study the clauses pertaining to tax emempt organistion and take appropriate actions with IRS.


Sadly, there are key groups here which seem to take instead of serve--the management. There are books written on this stuff that describes the activities of the "takers" going on for decades.
I cannot respond to communist ideologies, where in one says lower level worker is the one who really works and top management has nothing to do with work. One has to realise that if top management looses focus with day to day activities then very survival of the organisation is threatened. TOP MANAGEMENT SHOULD HAVE VISION.

While talking about religious organisation, one must understand what top management is actually doing


at least one person from the management or at least a live-in devotee take the time to answer basic questions to a newcomer or at the bare minimum at least acknowledge that a newcomer has walked through the door and greet them accoridingly. Note the word "basic."
Seems you had not read my post. What you mean by Basic need not to be basic for me and for someone it could mastery.

I also getting a feeling you are not visiting other unknown organistions. A sheer problem when we are invited for marriage we do not expect a 5 start service in the marriage where in we related closely, still expect personal care in a mass like "Sunday Program". Does not that sounds funny, yes, still we insist. This is basic human instinct - When I need something whole world / organisation should divert so that my need should be fulfilled; where in when I am part of service, other should also consider I am also human and I have limitations

We do not know how to phrase our question & we are taking advice of wrong person inside the organisation. To support our errors, we declare, every person inside ISKCON should be a master so that organisation is always ready to handle queries and calls for help. I say this is utopia for a big organisation. Hence I made a call, show an organisation which is big enough as ISKCON and does manages to do this. AT this juncture, as per the BYS, I am taking Alibi, where in actually, the very person is taking Abili insisting of thing which is an utopia


I have no idea what you are saying in the above paragraph. It doesn't even seem like a complete thought.
It will not be complete thought unless BYS is otherwise known as Shri Satay. If both are different, BYS cannot make sense out of request put across to Shri Satay


You are speaking words that are unintelligible. What on earth are you talking about? This is gibberish that doesn't even contain a complete thought.
"My idea is not only buyers beware but also, let us not ask for household provisions in a medical shop", is my statement. Request you point which part is unintelligible, gibberish etc so that I can clarify


Do you need some help with something?
YUP, how about donating a Million dollar to me

ramkish42
04 May 2006, 05:35 AM
namaste,
The post was addressed to me I think and the tolerance bit is related to the 'superiority complex' thread I started.

I ignored the post since it's not worth my time responding to it. Clearly, the poster is not on the same page as your OP or he has not taken the time to understand it. I couldn't say what it is for sure but in any case, I ignored his response as "normal iskcon support hand waving".
Shri Satayji, Not with superiority complex thread, but it is about selling junk - I was interested in knowing what is that junk which ISKCON sells, how you manage to call it junk inspite of preaching tolerance

Jalasayanan
04 May 2006, 12:35 PM
Ramkish, let us concentrate on Visishtadvaita thread pls

ramkish42
04 May 2006, 01:19 PM
Ramkish, let us concentrate on Visishtadvaita thread pls
Oh, yes. Thanks for reminding

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
04 May 2006, 02:41 PM
I agree with Satay. "Normal ISKCON support hand waving." ~BYS~

c.smith
04 May 2006, 03:04 PM
I too feel like ISKCON uses brainwashing as a cure-all. Chanting and reading seems to be the answer to everything, especially when a specific answer or guidance is needed.

It's been stated that one must have a spirtual master to be able to advance in Krishna Counsciousness. Given some of ISKCON's standards, I'll never be able to be initated or able to establish a guru/disciple relationship. Does this mean that I truly won't make progress spiritually?

I asked a "Spiritual Master" why ISKCON broke away from the Hindu religion. His curt reply was that the Hindu religion broke away from the Krishna Consciuosness movement - that the movement has been there from the beginning. History might tell us otherwise. (Correct me if I'm wrong). A few other basic questions were returned with twisted answers as well.

On a personal level, I had been studying the Hindu religion and found that my beliefs were a perfect match. My mistake was in taking someones advice - to go to a local ISKCON temple where someone would "help" me. Not knowing better, I believed just about everything they told me. So much so that I was contemplating giving up a 6 year relationship. Many concepts do make sense and I have learned a lot, but I have no intention of living life as a zombie of some sort or another.

Now it's back to the drawing board, but that's where I'll post in the "New to Hindu" section.

satay
04 May 2006, 05:36 PM
Bhagwan Krishna never asked us to live like zombies! Look at how he lived!! He enjoyed every second of the mortal world...should we not learn something from that? :)

c.smith
04 May 2006, 08:06 PM
Perhaps I've been misunderstood. I've been told that emotions keep us tied to the material world - that we should not feel happy nor sad, etc. "Zombie" was only a figure of speech. Sorry that I didn't clarify this before.

TruthSeeker
05 May 2006, 05:20 AM
ISKCON thinks that Lord Shiva is a servant of Krishna, they repeatedly offend others by saying this. But when dealing with Christains they will join hands and say that Jesus and Krishna are one and the same. Secular Politics?

Who is Jesus according to Hinduism? Nobody, aside from personal opinions. Who is Shiva according to Hinduism? - The supreme Lord. What a hypocrisy, that they choose to use secular politics with non Hindus and yet be sectarian when dealing with other Hindus.

Singhi Kaya
05 May 2006, 06:10 AM
ISKCON thinks that Lord Shiva is a servant of Krishna, they repeatedly offend others by saying this.
By itself doesn't mean much unless god is a personal being. Being a Shakta I view all other Gods to be partial aspects of the supreme mahashakti~the active aspect of Brahma. But I understand ISKCON may not mean it that way ... dunno.


But when dealing with Christains they will join hands and say that Jesus and Krishna are one and the same. Secular Politics?
Maybe~but ISKCON is not alone there.


Who is Jesus according to Hinduism? Nobody, aside from personal opinions. Who is Shiva according to Hinduism? - The supreme Lord. What a hypocrisy, that they choose to use secular politics with non Hindus and yet be sectarian when dealing with other Hindus.
All very true, but ISKCON is not alone here. Most hindu organizations have a similar tenant. So nothing peculiar with ISKCON here on the above context. OP was referring to a different theme, though this is a sure important point.

I'll have to pay more close attention to Ramkish's thread to get my idea clear on vaishnavism.

TruthSeeker
05 May 2006, 09:56 AM
By itself doesn't mean much unless god is a personal being. Being a Shakta I view all other Gods to be partial aspects of the supreme mahashakti~the active aspect of Brahma. But I understand ISKCON may not mean it that way ... dunno.


Maybe~but ISKCON is not alone there.


All very true, but ISKCON is not alone here. Most hindu organizations have a similar tenant. So nothing peculiar with ISKCON here on the above context. OP was referring to a different theme, though this is a sure important point.

I'll have to pay more close attention to Ramkish's thread to get my idea clear on vaishnavism.

I am not particular about the equality of Gods by every one, and it is just fine to have many beleifs. It is just perfect if some is after Vishnu or Shiva, or even concieve of different relationships. They are all correct in some way, after all names of God are all man made only. But there is no need to put down others in public for this reason.

But if you choose to be political with non Hindus, you can be political with other Hindus as well. Not doing so is hypocritical.

I saw some Vaishnava making a comment here that Christians are eligible for moksha as per shastras, but advaitins are not. How much more ridiculous can it get?

satay
05 May 2006, 10:34 AM
I saw some Vaishnava making a comment here that Christians are eligible for moksha as per shastras, but advaitins are not. How much more ridiculous can it get?

It can get very ridiculous; I know of one organization (I leave it for the reader to guess the name) that calls Shiva some sort of naukur (or lord for tamsic souls, like mine:)) of Krishna and Jesus as some sort of son or 'christo' where there is no evidence in the scriptures for this.

This I call, total junk and reject it as any junk should be rejected; some political purpose must be behind such things.

wouldn't you agree?

kimtadbrahma
05 May 2006, 11:13 AM
I have no great liking for ISKCON but I think some of the sentiments expressed here go way too far. Firstly, I would repeat that the idea of 'brainwashing' is completely meaningless. It is a term originating from the Korean war when prisoners were subjected to sensory deprivation and varying degrees of torture in order to influence their state of mind--a bit like Guantanamo Bay. It has been clearly demonstrated that unless one can physically coerce a person there is no possibility of anything of this type. Every ISKCON member at every moment of the day or night is absolutely free to leave any of their centres. So can we please not use emotive, pejorative language that has no value or meaning.

Secondly, when we criticise ISKCON's attitudes towards other forms of Hinduism we have to recognise that it is the Gaudiya Sampradaya as a whole and not just this one manifestation of it. Many sampradayas hold to the view that their beliefs and practices are the only way to God. And the Shiva Purana teaches quite clearly that Vishnu is not God, but is a creation of God who of course for this scripture is Shiva. So a lot of what is being directed here at ISKCON has a much wider application and I don't see why this one group should be singled out and vilified.

ramkish42
05 May 2006, 12:08 PM
Sheer hatered.

We are forgetting that we are ready to fight with Hindus in our own house where in we should respect hindu oppressors in our own house

We have to fight Asuric forces in their own home land but respect those asuric forces to keep our house clean, and when it comes to fellow hindus, we are ready to slit brethren throat for holding different view.

Does not this brethren has the same right as us, (we individually hold different views), as far as this forum is concerned - NO

When I say, let us aim with this thread what should our brethren do now to change, let us correct our fellow - NAY, I became a bad boy who reads no thread in full and miss points in OP

We have to respect junk salesman in our house to keep our house clean, when our brothers sells something - it boils us for he sells something to very same junk sales people.

When I show what we did in past to similar brothers of us and what will happen if every one start showing fingers on other brothers of ours, I AM TAKING ALIBI

We have to respect aphrodisiacal ideas sold in the name of Hinduism to westners but condemn our brother who has made people to read Gita and Puranas for he is making zombies

When I ask isnt it double standard, I am just waving my hand in support where in I am expected to defend our fellow against allegations for which only personal account and swearings are given as evidence.

May god save Hinduism, more than that, god save me form the ideas of this thread

coolbodhi
05 May 2006, 05:54 PM
I have been reading this thread offline and obviously not all of IKSCON is bad. Even a lot of ISKCON members don't agree with each other since a lot of the rules set by the founder have been tossed to the side. It is naive to ignore the problems of this foundation. Having said though not all members are the same.

Ramkish42, your post reads like a complaint which is understandable. Mods have been tough on you huh?;) I don't think though that anyone hates ISKCON here otherwise there won't be a dedicated forum on this site.

idli_sambar
05 May 2006, 07:00 PM
all organizations have all kinds of problems. I agree with Kim bhai.

Pankaja
07 May 2006, 06:56 PM
I have been reading this thread offline and obviously not all of IKSCON is bad. Even a lot of ISKCON members don't agree with each other since a lot of the rules set by the founder have been tossed to the side. It is naive to ignore the problems of this foundation. Having said though not all members are the same.

Ramkish42, your post reads like a complaint which is understandable. Mods have been tough on you huh?;) I don't think though that anyone hates ISKCON here otherwise there won't be a dedicated forum on this site.

I want to know what Bhakti Yoga Seeker asked? That could not be answered? The first post I read I think he was having either a bad day, or is addictied to some kind of sense gratification (hello-mode of passion!). Cannot live by any of the rules. So it talking about 'them'. And blaming 'them' for his own lack of determination to serve Krishna.

When you actually clean the temple, your doing seva for Krishna. Not the devotee. Anyway truth really hurts. When you said your heard more spiritual talks down the bar having a beer that said it all for me.

Bhagavad-gita as it is. Read this. It says about the mode of passion. Prabhu this simple point can be missed by even the most clearverst people (that was meant to be funny). :eek:

ramkish42
08 May 2006, 11:10 AM
Ramkish42, your post reads like a complaint which is understandable. Mods have been tough on you huh?;) I don't think though that anyone hates ISKCON here otherwise there won't be a dedicated forum on this site.

Never better.

More and more time I spend on this forum, I feel like leaving this. I had been part of many forums where there will be no activity and some forums where there will be activity but purely incompassionate.

Jai shree Krishna, seems my days are getting counted for exit on this forum.

satay
08 May 2006, 12:14 PM
no activity and some forums where there will be activity but purely incompassionate.


You meant to say 'activity that doesn't align with the vaishnava tradition'.

It is fine for me if pusedo vaishnavas leave this site. If our religion divides people and sects instead of bringing them together then we should not only shun this forum but also our religion and tradition.

I believe that our religion is the only tolerant tradition that brings people together but the discussions on this forum is proving me wrong...

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
08 May 2006, 04:48 PM
I want to know what Bhakti Yoga Seeker asked? That could not be answered? The first post I read I think he was having either a bad day, or is addictied to some kind of sense gratification (hello-mode of passion!). Cannot live by any of the rules. So it talking about 'them'. And blaming 'them' for his own lack of determination to serve Krishna.


If you are not going to respond to what I have said, then please do not post a response. I don't appreciate you making up lies about my personal life. First I wasn't having a bad day. Second, I am not "addicted to some kind of sense gratification" as you put it. Third, I'd like to see evidence that I "cannot" live by any of your rules. Fourth, I am a "he" not an "it." Fifth, your entire paragraph is making up lies about me. If that is the way you are going to behave, please get off of this forum.



When you actually clean the temple, your doing seva for Krishna. Not the devotee. Anyway truth really hurts. When you said your heard more spiritual talks down the bar having a beer that said it all for me.

Bhagavad-gita as it is. Read this. It says about the mode of passion. Prabhu this simple point can be missed by even the most clearverst people (that was meant to be funny). :eek:

Nobody is laughing except you apparently. You would actually understand what I am saying if you would escape from this "group think" that results in the all too common "hand waving" as Satay put it. Anyway, if bar association ends up more spiritual than temple association, that says a lot about the temple. ~BYS~

Pankaja
08 May 2006, 05:12 PM
If you are not going to respond to what I have said, then please do not post a response. I don't appreciate you making up lies about my personal life. First I wasn't having a bad day. Second, I am not "addicted to some kind of sense gratification" as you put it. Third, I'd like to see evidence that I "cannot" live by any of your rules. Fourth, I am a "he" not an "it." Fifth, your entire paragraph is making up lies about me. If that is the way you are going to behave, please get off of this forum.



Nobody is laughing except you apparently. You would actually understand what I am saying if you would escape from this "group think" that results in the all too common "hand waving" as Satay put it. Anyway, if bar association ends up more spiritual than temple association, that says a lot about the temple. ~BYS~

Okay. Didn't mean any offence. Anyway what did you ask that could not be answered?

hanuman_das
22 May 2006, 04:40 AM
Haribol,
I must truthfully admit that in Uk, I have never ever had any bad experiances with any member of ISKCON.
In fact, there is no other people that I would rather be with, as they are so helpful and loving in every way.
Hare Krishna.

atanu
23 May 2006, 08:54 AM
Haribol,
In fact, there is no other people that I would rather be with, as they are so helpful and loving in every way.
Hare Krishna.

Namaskar

I have found them always rather sweet to non-indians (though you may be Indian). Please tell us how you have helped ISKCON in return for the help and love that you have received?

Those who are creed based are always limited and have very low tolerance for other experiences and viewpoints -- very well exemplified by use of language such as rascal, duratma etc. by the Guru himself --- and very much against the samadrishti teaching of Gita.

Not a problem with ISKCON really but in the ego that fuels the creed. No sage will use vak such as 'rascal'.


Best wishes

atanu
23 May 2006, 09:13 AM
ISKCON thinks that Lord Shiva is a servant of Krishna, they repeatedly offend others by saying this. But when dealing with Christains they will join hands and say that Jesus and Krishna are one and the same. Secular Politics?

Who is Jesus according to Hinduism? Nobody, aside from personal opinions. Who is Shiva according to Hinduism? - The supreme Lord. What a hypocrisy, that they choose to use secular politics with non Hindus and yet be sectarian when dealing with other Hindus.


My ISKCON experience was funny. I never knew that God could be graded, before I read Prabhupada. I just happened to read a book of ISKCON guru. He cited a foreigner --- who apparently while roaming through streets of Calcutta realised that only Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord, since He alone was playing while all others were found to be working on Krishna's orders --- as the proof of Supremacy of His concept of God. Then I saw Him abusing others using words like Rascal etc. (may be out of love). Then I came across a sort of Math: Krishna is 100%, Vishnu 87% and Shiva poor 75%. I kept wondering at the great mathematical ability to assgin limited percentages to infinity.

Just imagine: 87% of infinity. How do you get the value? That was a joke and those who take such things seriously are themselves jokes.

But the final blow was calling God as THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD? That was bombastic. I knew that the full of pomp 'THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD' is not my loving and simple Lord Krishna.


No malice truly but it simply does not gel with me. Creeds and man made boundaries are not for me, since boundaries are made from Ego -- the very thing I want to overthrow.

Om Namah Vasudevaya

atanu
23 May 2006, 09:34 AM
ISKCON thinks that Lord Shiva is a servant of Krishna, they repeatedly offend others by saying this. But when dealing with Christains they will join hands and say that Jesus and Krishna are one and the same. Secular Politics?




Bhagavatam states that residing in Shri Krishna's throat Lord Shiva drank the poison of Putana's breast. Lord Shiva is sanatana dasa.This is true, since Lord Shiva is my dasa as well, providing this life and its sustenance and its enjoyments. And also being a teacher, when the ego forgets its insignificance and oversteps.

What can exist apart from shivo advaitam Turiya? What made George Harrison sing a hymn to Uma Mahesvara before his death? Life long devotion to Vishnu only.

It takes time. And with this perspective, my vote goes to ISKCON.

hanuman_das
03 July 2006, 04:34 AM
Dear banajee,
what do you mean , how have I helped iskcon?
I can`t help krishna, only krishna can help me.
All I can do is pray to krishna, what else can I do?
Haribol, all glories to Lord Krishna and Sri Prabhupada.

Sudarshan
03 July 2006, 12:32 PM
Bhagavatam states that residing in Shri Krishna's throat Lord Shiva drank the poison of Putana's breast.

Verse Number?
I am not aware of such a thing.

Sudarshan
03 July 2006, 12:37 PM
Then I came across a sort of Math: Krishna is 100%, Vishnu 87% and Shiva poor 75%. I kept wondering at the great mathematical ability to assgin limited percentages to infinity.

Just imagine: 87% of infinity. How do you get the value? That was a joke and those who take such things seriously are themselves jokes.


Are you aware of the concept of "orders of infinity"? In Vishishtadvaita, you could roughly say that jiva is infinite, but Lord is infinitely infinite, thus jiva's infinity is not the same as the Lord' infinity. Just like the comparison between the number of integers and the number of all real numbers.(fractions, irrationals, transcendendal numbers etc)

You can be infinite without needing to equate yourself with God..

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
03 July 2006, 04:11 PM
Dear banajee,
what do you mean , how have I helped iskcon?
I can`t help krishna, only krishna can help me.
All I can do is pray to krishna, what else can I do?
Haribol, all glories to Lord Krishna and Sri Prabhupada.

It is a straightforward question. He asked how have you helped ISKCON, not how have you helped Krishna. Krishna is NOT ISKCON and ISKCON is NOT Krishna. I am not sure why you are comparing Krishna to ISKCON. ISKCON does not own Krishna and it appears that ISKCON hardly even follows Krishna. You answered a question with a question and derailed your response away from answering a very simple question. This is unfortunately a very common tactic of followers of ISKCON when asked simple questions about their organization. Please answer the question. ~BYS~

Sudarshan
04 July 2006, 11:34 AM
Huh? hanuman_das has posted barely three messages, and he is being chased away because he belongs to ISKCON? He has contributed nothing on this forum, and not made any statements regarding ISKCON.

This is nothing but sheer hatred being displayed towards all members of that religion. A member like him is not responsible for some words uttered by some teacher in his tradition. Moreover I would like to see evidence for Prabupada(or whoever is referred to here) calling others as "rascal". This is an unsubstantiated charge, and should not be allowed on this forum without the exact quotation. And those who accuse him frequently hide under "I respect Prabupada but disagree with all his teachings", but their disagreement rarely appears to be with his teachings but against the superstructure of ISKCON itself. I dont agree with ISKCON in many areas, but this is no reason to insult its members with generalized statements- especially nothing is proved here. I can understand people raising issues with philosophical positions and showing disagreements, but dragging it in because some of its members are not upto the mark and upto your own ideals is plain ridiculous.

Let us atleast respect his name "hanuman_das", and not encounter the displeasure of Hanuman unneccessarily.;)

satay
04 July 2006, 11:51 AM
Moreover I would like to see evidence for Prabupada(or whoever is referred to here) calling others as "rascal". This is an unsubstantiated charge, and should not be allowed on this forum without the exact quotation.

No one is disrespecting hanuman_das. Is this what you are looking for? For easy reference do a search on the word 'rascal'.

Not sure in what context shri prabupada whom I have the utmost respect for but disagree with on the usuage of words like rascal, demi and also naukar (when talking about other gods including shiva). Not hiding behind anywhere...I have said this openly and repeatedly here and on hindunet.


http://science.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/028.html

http://books.krishna.org/Articles/2005/02/grammar.html

http://preaching.krishna.org/Articles/2001/09/001.html

http://society.krishna.org/Articles/2002/05/005.html

http://society.krishna.org/Articles/2001/09/019.html

http://society.krishna.org/Articles/2000/09/00100.html

If you would like to see more usage of the word 'rascal' do a search on the site. Again, not sure what context guru used this word.

satay
04 July 2006, 11:54 AM
This is nothing but sheer hatred being displayed towards all members of that religion.

No, where is the hatred? I think you are becoming too emotional. Hanunman_das has only posted three times (twice on this thread). I don't see any hatred towards him just some curious questions.

Do you think that we should not ask questions? I see you asking these questions of advaitins all the time. Should we assume that you are displaying your hatred here by questioning advaitins and their guru?

Sudarshan
04 July 2006, 12:18 PM
No one is disrespecting hanuman_das. Is this what you are looking for? For easy reference do a search on the word 'rascal'.

Not sure in what context shri prabupada whom I have the utmost respect for but disagree with on the usuage of words like rascal, demi and also naukar (when talking about other gods including shiva). Not hiding behind anywhere...I have said this openly and repeatedly here and on hindunet.


http://science.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/028.html

http://books.krishna.org/Articles/2005/02/grammar.html

http://preaching.krishna.org/Articles/2001/09/001.html

http://society.krishna.org/Articles/2002/05/005.html

http://society.krishna.org/Articles/2001/09/019.html

http://society.krishna.org/Articles/2000/09/00100.html

If you would like to see more usage of the word 'rascal' do a search on the site. Again, not sure what context guru used this word.


Thanks for the reference, but on that first link you can find this:

Prabupada: But the real progress is that when they will understand that: "We are rascals." That will be real progress, when they come to understand that: "We are all fools and rascals." That will be real progress. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu presented Himself that: "My Guru Maharaja found me a rascal number one. Yes." That is real progress.

So this appears to be like the Christian mentality - "We are all sinners". Prabupada says that we are all rascals. I am guessing that he borrowed this from Christianity. So this charge on others may be ignored, he is self consistant. :D

Sudarshan
04 July 2006, 12:26 PM
No, where is the hatred? I think you are becoming too emotional. Hanunman_das has only posted three times (twice on this thread). I don't see any hatred towards him just some curious questions.

Do you think that we should not ask questions? I see you asking these questions of advaitins all the time. Should we assume that you are displaying your hatred here by questioning advaitins and their guru?

I am only referring to statements like "This is unfortunately a very common tactic of followers of ISKCON when asked simple questions about their organization.", which is a generalized statement. Questioning is not done on any philosophical position here which is of some use, but all questioning here is on some of actions of the followers of ISKCON for which ISKCON may not be responsible.

Just imagine, I start posting my personal opinion here about the recent Shankaracharya case and then generalizing it for all Advaitins. Will it be well tolerated or not? I dont see these questions any differently from that. I dont bring up personal charges on anybody nor do I go outside the zone of philosophy.

satay
04 July 2006, 01:11 PM
So this appears to be like the Christian mentality - "We are all sinners". Prabupada says that we are all rascals. I am guessing that he borrowed this from Christianity. So this charge on others may be ignored, he is self consistant. :D

So in your opinion it's okay for a guru to call others rascals as long as he calls himself a rascal too. correct?

satay
04 July 2006, 01:20 PM
I am only referring to statements like "This is unfortunately a very common tactic of followers of ISKCON when asked simple questions about their organization.", which is a generalized statement.


I don't follow you. Followers of ISKCON and their behaviour is "ISKCON" to an outsider who doesn't know much about the organization. It's like when you go outside of India and work let's say in the west, you automatically become the 'representative' of your nation and culture and in fact an Ambassador! The way you behave makes people form an opinion about you and your country and culture. I am not pointing fingers at ISKCON devotees here just saying in general...



Just imagine, I start posting my personal opinion here about the recent Shankaracharya case and then generalizing it for all Advaitins. Will it be well tolerated or not? I dont see these questions any differently from that. I dont bring up personal charges on anybody nor do I go outside the zone of philosophy.

Your example makes no sense. We are talking about two different things. One is about the followers of one particular sect and the opinion of BYS that when asked questions members of that sect behave in a certain way...the other (that you are talking about) is a totally different thing.

Anyway, I will leave this thread now as I can see that the discussion about ISKCON will not go anywhere...we have been down this road before. :)

Sudarshan
04 July 2006, 01:25 PM
So in your opinion it's okay for a guru to call others rascals as long as he calls himself a rascal too. correct?

First of all we have to find out what he means by rascal if he goes about calling himself and whoever meets him as a rascal. Perhaps he understands the fact that all of us are rascals because we have all commited some sins to take this birth. If this is what he meant then I think it is allright for him to call that way.

If he called himself a rascal in the conventional sense( which means a liar or scoundrel), then he must either be crazy or sane. If he is crazy then his teachings maybe ignored. If he is sane, then his words carry as much worth as a person who claims to be a habitual liar , again ignorable.

It appears that he is just calling himself and others as "born sinners". This is quite true as everyone has a prarabdha karma though Hindus as a rule do not call themselves this way. Maybe this was his way of obtaining some unique identity.

Sudarshan
04 July 2006, 01:40 PM
Your example makes no sense. We are talking about two different things. One is about the followers of one particular sect and the opinion of BYS that when asked questions members of that sect behave in a certain way...the other (that you are talking about) is a totally different thing.


And you beleive in the validity of his questions? For someone who thinks that chatting in the bar appears more spiritual than a temple visit , what answers could be provided?

satay
04 July 2006, 02:01 PM
And you beleive in the validity of his questions? For someone who thinks that chatting in the bar appears more spiritual than a temple visit , what answers could be provided?

Now we are talking specifically about BYS and his questions?

Unfortunately, sudharshan I have to agree with BYS when he says chatting in a bar is more spiritual! Before everyone starts hitting me on the head for saying this let me explain...

As I have stated before, I stopped going to the temple here in my city in canada. Not because I couldn't connect to the God present in the murthi there but because of lack of respect shown by all so called 'hindus' that were running the temple. I once almost came to blows with this guy who sat in front of me with his legs extended to the murthis and all the while chatting about his girlfriend to another guy. I told him to sit straight and move his feet away from the murthis; at this request, his parents go angry and started saying this and that! Then there are those that show up at the temple as if it is a social thing and sit in the puja room chatting about other people's daughter-in-laws, sons or all the other politics instead of paying attention to the puja and trying to connect with god. How is this behaviour spiritual?

I, too rather have a beer in a bar and chat with a person about god and probably we will have a more focused and spiritual conversation than talking to someone who sits in the puja room disrespecting the murthis either by gossiping or by extenind his legs and showing his feet. If it were my son sitting like that I would have cut off his feet! (may be exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean). This is the behavior of the so called 'indian' hindus. The quesiton now is what will we do if a westerner sits like this and does gossiping etc. in the temple? Are we setting a good example for those who dont' know much about our religion which can be confusing to begin with as it is!

satay
04 July 2006, 04:21 PM
Before other vaishnavas start hitting me with 'brickbats' and start posting all emotional outbursts on their forums on the net... I would like to say that 'drinking beer' is used as a figurative speech in my post.

I do not consume any alcohol nor have I visited any bar ever! Though I don't know BYS personally, I remember reading at hindunet that he also does not consume any alcohol. That implies that he was also using the 'drinking a beer' thing as a figure of speech.

Please don't get all emotional and start having outbursts.

On another thought, if other so called vaishnavas start judging me and are having emotional outbursts and want me to behave in this and that way...that is not my problem at all and it is their own problem. My bhakti and sadhana remain unaffected from other people's emotional outbursts. But most all my relationship with Bhagwan stays unaffected.

pep talk finished.

willie
04 July 2006, 08:59 PM
So now it is the krishna people. Just think of how most of them were presented to the public. Mostly as bums in airports handing out pamphlets and trying to get a donation. And it got so bad the airport personnel tried to throw them out and finally some laws had to be passed to limit the harassment of people traveling.

I can remember stopping at stoplights and being swarmed by krishna people. i got a few handouts and just waited out the light. Although I was fast on the take off, I never did get to run over any toes, those guys were a lot faster then they looked.

This temple thing you mention is pretty prevalent in christian but there something else happens. You either have a locked down mentality where everyone has to act the same way or they are asked to leave. Or you have a sort of all our free for all with bands and lots of entertainment.

Sitting on a bar stool could look good in comparison because I have not see any real religious instruction in any churches or temples yet. So if you can talk to people one on one, go to it. Spiritual growth is mostly a solitary process anyway.

sarabhanga
04 July 2006, 10:47 PM
“All kings is mostly rapscallions” ~ Mark Twain.

satay
05 July 2006, 02:40 PM
So now it is the krishna people. Just think of how most of them were presented to the public. Mostly as bums in airports handing out pamphlets and trying to get a donation. And it got so bad the airport personnel tried to throw them out and finally some laws had to be passed to limit the harassment of people traveling.


Bums? Are you all right willie? I never saw these devotees in an airport but I can assure you that they were not BUMS!




This temple thing you mention is pretty prevalent in christian but there something else happens. You either have a locked down mentality where everyone has to act the same way or they are asked to leave. Or you have a sort of all our free for all with bands and lots of entertainment.


Actually I have been to both types of churches that you mention here. Even in the ones that have bands etc. I didn’t see people gossiping about others’ son or daughter or other social things. In fact, people were not saying anything except listening to the minister. Then after the ‘lecture’ or prayer things were done they all went downstairs in a room to socialize with each other.

Hindu temples in the west have the same sort of facilities where a social room is available for those who visit the temple for social needs. For those who are sitting in the puja room there is no excuse to sit and gossip about this and that. But that’s not the thing that surprises me; what surprises me is that some people actually support gossiping in the puja room!

This reminds me of a story the minister was talking about in a church one time. He said, “a lot of people don’t come to church because they think that only hypocrites go to church, only people who need to gossip go to church, only people who need to show off that they are praying go to church”

While he was saying this…I was thinking…yes, I belong to such ‘lot.’

He continued, “but I say to those people who think this way that it is good that hypocrites come to the church so that we can help them and connect them to god; it is good that people come here and gossip so that we can show them how to gossip about god…”

Eh? What do you say about this?? :)

I have no problem with this if church wants these types of people in their ‘puja room.’ Hindu puja rooms, however, are for connecting with the murti present there, worshipping, offering your prayers and for satsanga NOT FOR gossiping!

mblova
05 July 2006, 04:10 PM
To be fair this all depends on what type of temple you go to. Simply it can be seen that some temples are liberal in what happens in the pooja room and some are very strict. These liberalness even spreads to what one can when worshipping. What happens is, some temples are very large and therefore they have spaces for socialziation and some are very small. Not to belittle your argument, when the devotees go to a temple in a community you are bound to find someone you know. Not to make this arugment as though you are ignorant, which you arnt( i hope) the important thing is to not socialize while puja is going on. I see no problem that when all religious activities are done, that it is alright to socialize as you are in the presence of God. Even the priests are there to socialize and talk about their children or families or an upcomming event. I feel that it is disrespectful during the puja to socialize or talk but once it is over, its alright to socialize because you are still in the presence of God and still have him in your mind. You arnt loud, you dont foulmouth and you dont run around(unless little child). Its because one realizes that you are in a temple and not at a party.

satay
05 July 2006, 04:32 PM
I see your point. I am not saying that we shouldn't talk once the puja is over in the puja room. That would be stupid. I am requesting that all gossiping etc. be done outside of the puja room.

Some people will say well, first we have to find out what the other people are gossiping about.

The point is that once puja is happening and we are sitting there and someone is talking already giving a lecture or something or prayer then we should sit there and listen instead of talking about how bad our boss is and how this person's daugther is going out with another person who happens to be sikh!

It is just common sense! The best way to avoid all problems is to request that no one 'talks' while someone is talking at the front or when puja is happening. It's like when we are in a classroom. If two people keep talking while the teacher is trying to teach and causing disturbance they are normally asked to leave the classroom.

hanuman_das
05 July 2006, 05:21 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Sudarshan, and thank you for understanding me.
Hare Krishna.

Sudarshan
05 July 2006, 11:50 PM
There is probably a limit to using figure of speech. Comparing a temple and bar are likely comparing a bottle of honey and a piece of sh*t. Even if the honey is contaminated a bit, you can purify it, but the latter is not consumable under any circumstance.(unless you are crazy).

One way of putting the blame on the temple, would be to say "Why am I not feeling so spiritual in this particular temple?". Is it my fault or the temple's? How it could be prevented. etc? Morover, as far as temple is concerned, it is between you and God, and the people or their actions in the temple have nothing to do with this relationship. If they seem to bother you, the main problem is with you alone.

You must probably read the stories of how some Alwar saints were prevented from entering the temple because they were "low" caste people. But oneday the Lord himself ordered the so called Brahmins to allow the Alwar into the temple and be given the utmost honour. Where your desire is sincere, you can face no obstacles in spiritual life, and even such obstacles would be temporary.

satay
06 July 2006, 12:45 AM
There is probably a limit to using figure of speech. Comparing a temple and bar are likely comparing a bottle of honey and a piece of sh*t. Even if the honey is contaminated a bit, you can purify it, but the latter is not consumable under any circumstance.(unless you are crazy).


Once again you misunderstood what I said. I never compared temple to a bar. I agreed to what you were saying about BYS who said that he would probably have a better spiritual conversation with someone in a bar. I agree to that. It is possible to have a better spiritual conversation withs omeone in a bar.



One way of putting the blame on the temple, would be to say "Why am I not feeling so spiritual in this particular temple?". Is it my fault or the temple's? How it could be prevented. etc? Morover, as far as temple is concerned, it is between you and God, and the people or their actions in the temple have nothing to do with this relationship. If they seem to bother you, the main problem is with you alone.


As usual this is all bogus!

It is not my fault that people don't know how to respect the murtis in the temple; it is not my fault that the temple organizers don't want to or don't know how to set a guideline (which is a common sense to begin with) in the puja room.

Are you supporting that we should extend our feet towards the lord and show him the bottom of our feet? So what next? Would you also sit there silently when an idiot comes ans shows the lord his a$$ in front of you instead of bowing down his head?

If you want to support such nonsense so be it. I for one will not and this is why I don't visit the temple anymore. Because I realized that ignorants and hypocrites as well as their supporters should be left for bhagwan to change.



You must probably read the stories of how some Alwar saints were prevented from entering the temple because they were "low" caste people. But oneday the Lord himself ordered the so called Brahmins to allow the Alwar into the temple and be given the utmost honour. Where your desire is sincere, you can face no obstacles in spiritual life, and even such obstacles would be temporary.

huh? This has nothing to do with what we are talking about?

We are talking about people showing disrespect in the puja room by extending their feet towards the lord and by gossiping instead of focusing on the what is being said or done there. But you seem to support such behaviour in the puja room! :eek:

Amazing!

atanu
06 July 2006, 02:27 AM
Verse Number?
I am not aware of such a thing.

You will not find it in certain translations and that is expected.

atanu
06 July 2006, 02:34 AM
Are you aware of the concept of "orders of infinity"? In Vishishtadvaita, you could roughly say that jiva is infinite, but Lord is infinitely infinite, thus jiva's infinity is not the same as the Lord' infinity. Just like the comparison between the number of integers and the number of all real numbers.(fractions, irrationals, transcendendal numbers etc)

You can be infinite without needing to equate yourself with God..

Very enlightening indeed. You only do not understand that the infinities you are talking about (number of integers and the number of all real numbers.(fractions, irrationals, transcendendal numbers etc) are all infinities of mind, which itself is limited due to ignorance.


And regarding your statement: "You can be infinite without needing to equate yourself with God", I would remind you, as many times as necessary, that in Self there is no I and You and nothing to equate oneself to.

You are just being obstinately foolish, repeatedly raising a foolish point from the perspective of an individual discrete I, which you cannot demonstrate to exist.

atanu
06 July 2006, 02:39 AM
Thanks for the reference, but on that first link you can find this:

Prabupada: But the real progress is that when they will understand that: "We are rascals." That will be real progress, when they come to understand that: "We are all fools and rascals." . So this charge on others may be ignored, he is self consistant. :D


Prabhupada termed Sathya Sai Baba a rascal.

If I think I am a rascal, am I entitled to call Sudarshan a rascal?

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 02:47 AM
You are just being obstinately foolish, repeatedly raising a foolish point from the perspective of an individual discrete I, which you cannot demonstrate to exist.

Why, the orders of infinity can be mathematically proved!!

The second point is really foolish as there is no need to prove the existance of "I" as we experiece it. If you do not have an "I" right now, I would suggest visiting a doctor. Everyone has an "I" and no need of demonstration.;)

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 02:51 AM
!

It is not my fault that people don't know how to respect the murtis in the temple; it is not my fault that the temple organizers don't want to or don't know how to set a guideline (which is a common sense to begin with) in the puja room.

Are you supporting that we should extend our feet towards the lord and show him the bottom of our feet? So what next? Would you also sit there silently when an idiot comes ans shows the lord his a$$ in front of you instead of bowing down his head?


Obviously, it just proves what I said earlier. People go to temple, do not concentrate on the diety there and make a big noise of the faults of people around there. If you dont like a temple, go somewhere else.

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 02:59 AM
Prabhupada termed Sathya Sai Baba a rascal.

If I think I am a rascal, am I entitled to call Sudarshan a rascal?

First point, I do not know. Many people call him so because he calls himself an avatar. Those who beleive that call him a Godman and the rest, a rascal. So no comments on that issue. There will be no charges on anyone who calls himself a Bhakta, but if someone calls himself to be an incarnation, then you will get both boquets and brickbats, this is inevitable. Even Sri Krishna was accused of theft, and there was one Paundraka Vasudeva who called himself as an avatar and Krishna killed him.

Yes, if you really think yourself to be a rascal( sincerely), then you are entitled to call Sudarshan a rascal. I dont mind that.:)

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 04:53 AM
You will not find it in certain translations and that is expected.

It is certainly expected to be there in your personal translation.

atanu
06 July 2006, 06:37 AM
Why, the orders of infinity can be mathematically proved!!


I knew it. To VA adherents God and Jiva are mathematical mental formulations ----- infinitely regressed to different degrees.





The second point is really foolish as there is no need to prove the existance of "I" as we experiece it. If you do not have an "I" right now, I would suggest visiting a doctor. Everyone has an "I" and no need of demonstration.;)


I am not proving the existence of I. Rather the opposite.

What I am saying is that "You" do not exist apart from "I". The world does not exist apart from I. There is no way to prove that the world or you exist apart from the percieving I. And this is very well explained in Gopala Tapaniya, which I have cited several times.

There is no I and You in reality -- so your repeated allegation that Advaitas equate themselves to God, is foolish.

atanu
06 July 2006, 06:47 AM
It is certainly expected to be there in your personal translation.

I have seen this before also --- with confidence they say "the story of two birds do not appear in Svet Up"; And when proven wrong they do not show the courage to accept the ignorance with humility.

Please check up outside your personal edition.

atanu
06 July 2006, 06:53 AM
Yes, if you really think yourself to be a rascal( sincerely), then you are entitled to call Sudarshan a rascal. I dont mind that.:)

The only problem is that Mr. Dey called himself Prabhupada (Vishnu) and others rascals. And the point is: "I in me is God" so calling I a rascal is a sin. Prabhupada and you will never realise that.

Saying "We are all rascals" is a sin. It goes against the teaching of upanishads.

satay
06 July 2006, 09:22 AM
Obviously, it just proves what I said earlier.


No there is nothing ‘obvious’ about it. The only obvious thing is that you somehow either can not comprehend what I am saying or refuse to accept it due to your emotional state of mind. Which is it? I could not say for sure.



People go to temple, do not concentrate on the diety there and make a big noise of the faults of people around there. If you dont like a temple, go somewhere else.


What! So you are silently accepting the fool that will pull down his pants and shove his rear end to the lord’s face when he is present in the murti form? If we are allowing this type of nonsense from the ‘indian’ hindus then why do we make noise when a missionary from another religion calls our lord a satan or makes a mockery of him by putting his picture on the toilet seat?

Your nonsense is Amazing!

What to say this? I rest my case…

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 11:08 AM
I am not proving the existence of I. Rather the opposite.

What I am saying is that "You" do not exist apart from "I". The world does not exist apart from I. There is no way to prove that the world or you exist apart from the percieving I. And this is very well explained in Gopala Tapaniya, which I have cited several times.

There is no I and You in reality -- so your repeated allegation that Advaitas equate themselves to God, is foolish.

No proof outside your own mental speculations.

By the way, Gopala Tapaniya really puts down Advaita's interpretatation of Mandukya as four "quarters" of Atma, so no point quoting it. You never gave any answer to how a jiva can become a Lord of all in deep sleep when the world itself is not seen- Gopala Tapaniya explains well how it is so. As the chatuspAd does not refer to the jiva at all, but the four forms of Brahman. It does not mention anything of what you say either - it just says I am not this perishable body, which no one denies.

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 11:16 AM
I have seen this before also --- with confidence they say "the story of two birds do not appear in Svet Up"; And when proven wrong they do not show the courage to accept the ignorance with humility.

Please check up outside your personal edition.

So what is the final point you want to say? That Krishna needed the help of Shiva to consume the poison? When did Advaita start thinking that they are different "Gods" to beleive in that story? Advaitin stories are indeed quite funny.

You did not show me any proof even from Shankara's commentaries to prove that Krishna depended on anything. I would suggest you to read his Gita Bhasya well, and know his verdict on Krishna. I hope the words of your Acharya are binding on you? If it is not, I cannot really argue with thousands of "advaitas" based on individual opinions.

Sudarshan
06 July 2006, 11:32 AM
I knew it. To VA adherents God and Jiva are mathematical mental formulations ----- infinitely regressed to different degrees.


Nope, it is solely based on scriptural authority. Vedanta sutras talk of only this difference a dozen times where Shankara is obliged to add his own comment, that vedanta sutras are only joking.( by adding in brackets that such difference is illusory).

The idea is to be formed by combining the sutras 4.4.17 and 4.4.21, which confirm that jiva cannot enjoy certain powers of God( which proves they are distinct from each other), and the 21th verse states that they have equal bliss. Since these two are at odds, one has to conclude that the bliss has to be qualitiatively equal, and since there can be no finiteness in moksha, we necessarily need to introduce the orders of infinity to explain the difference. Dont bother to read the Advaitin interpretation of these verses as they have nothing to offer to anybody, and says that this moksha described here is illusory. Who could even imagine that a text on Brahma-sutras concludes by describing an illuosry state of existance.

willie
06 July 2006, 09:18 PM
I can remember going through airports and having Krishna people in pursuit like a pack of wolves. Trying to give out pamphlets for a donation and then there were the stoplight mugging techniques.

I wonder what all of them did for a living besides bumming donations.

The thing about churches is that there are certain groups that hang out together. And I have never heard any gossip about god or any real discussion just a lot of going along like lemmings. Sure you and bring up that jesus was declared to be devine by committee, that would get things rolling. Or take up the gospel of judas, a real church clearer.

Perhaps a discussion about the sermon that goes beyond the cocktail conversation. Or talk about what god is really like and what god wants people to do.

I remember a unitarian universalist group and someone brought up what god was like. I didn't know that older people could be so physical and yell so loud. it was a real yelling match and put some wedges between the little circles that has formed in the church. Took months for that bunch to get over it. Too bad it was not a physical parking lot discussion, some of the group were in pertty good physical condition and it would have been a good match.

For the last few posters it would seem the no one really agrees on what holybook have to say or which of the socalled holymen were real and which could only talk a good game.

I think there is a lot of room for people to develope spirituality.

atanu
07 July 2006, 02:08 AM
No proof outside your own mental speculations.

By the way, Gopala Tapaniya really puts down Advaita's interpretatation of Mandukya as four "quarters" of Atma, so no point quoting it. You never gave any answer to how a jiva can become a Lord of all in deep sleep when the world itself is not seen- Gopala Tapaniya explains well how it is so. As the chatuspAd does not refer to the jiva at all, but the four forms of Brahman. It does not mention anything of what you say either - it just says I am not this perishable body, which no one denies.



Is there a jiva in Gopala Tapaniya?

atanu
07 July 2006, 02:16 AM
So what is the final point you want to say? That Krishna needed the help of Shiva to consume the poison?


Dear Sudarshan you will always miss the points since you have lower, upper, superior etc etc in your mind. You are either young or immature.:ill:


The embodied is protected by Atma or destroyed by the Atma, depending on whether the mind knows the atma or not. Gita says: Self may be a friend or an enemy. For those who respect and love turiya shivoadvaitam self, the poison is consumed by That.

mblova
02 September 2006, 09:44 PM
im very curious to know more about hare krishna. They seem more of a cult than a religious organization. There have previously been such cults, in oregon and kansas, but hare krishna doesnt seem so extreme. I would like to know the general lives of these people and how they go about their normal day. Its very interesting.

Yogkriya
28 September 2006, 04:40 AM
This is witty, tickling, true acount of a widespread experience many people have had with iskcon. I have witnessed this first hand in more than three countries including Indian and Russia.
Unfortunately many do not realize what they are getting into in the name of Lord Krishna and spirituality, until they are a few years down the road losing much time and money - when they are either brainwashed to accept any other logic or are too burned out to do anything about it.
No one is against pure bhaki yoga and glorifying Lord Krishna. But here is another story to be told. Though I've met some nice people at iskcon too and they are really nice, until they feel you are not accepting ONLY Prabhupada and iskcon. Then you are out, cursed, hated and "blasphemied". So what's the way out? You pretend agreeing with everything they say? Or be your self and risk being disliked and hated? Most Hindus don't like to offend them, so they don't go against much. But they don't follow this policy. They have an anti Hindu policy. Srila Prabhupada does not even recognize Hinduism as a religion which is recognized all over the world. Iskcon has a problem getting recognition as a religion. At the most a sect/cult.



Since a number of ISKCONites or those who at least defend ISKCON have preached their school and attacked others of different schools, I think it is time to present the other side of the story. I am going to share my experiences with ISKCON which are simply not positive. Note that my experiences here refer to multiple temples... ~BYS~

Yogkriya
28 September 2006, 04:50 AM
HAR HAR .. THIS IS SO HILARIOUS, BUT SO TRUE !!
I couldn't have put it any better. lol
Hari bol !!


My ISKCON experience was funny. I never knew that God could be graded, before I read Prabhupada. I just happened to read a book of ISKCON guru. He cited a foreigner --- who apparently while roaming through streets of Calcutta realised that only Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord, since He alone was playing while all others were found to be working on Krishna's orders --- as the proof of Supremacy of His concept of God. Then I saw Him abusing others using words like Rascal etc. (may be out of love). Then I came across a sort of Math: Krishna is 100%, Vishnu 87% and Shiva poor 75%. I kept wondering at the great mathematical ability to assgin limited percentages to infinity.

Just imagine: 87% of infinity. How do you get the value? That was a joke and those who take such things seriously are themselves jokes.

But the final blow was calling God as THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD? That was bombastic. I knew that the full of pomp 'THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD' is not my loving and simple Lord Krishna.


No malice truly but it simply does not gel with me. Creeds and man made boundaries are not for me, since boundaries are made from Ego -- the very thing I want to overthrow.

Om Namah Vasudevaya

Yogkriya
30 September 2006, 10:00 AM
Another interesting experience with the pro Iskcon site audarya-fellowship forums..
As soon as the moderators like Janhva Nitai Das and others feel that someone is winning an argument that us not pro iskcon school of philosophy, they ban him. Very recently they tried to prove that Shiva is just a mere "demi-God" and Rudra is sinful!
Upon proving otherwise, they banned me from their site without being able to give an reason.
This is the fourth time they did this.

The Audarya site has many different threads pretending to show discussions on Hinduism, Spiritual Discussions, Letter and journals on Hindu philosophy, but in reality it is all the same pro iskcon team controlling it and makes sure that the philosophical discussions taking place are iskcon dominated at all times. In a case otherwise, u are restricted or banned.

There is an intersting double standard of intermingling with other Hindu groups to promote only their philosophy stating to newcomers to Hinduism that prevailant Hindu beliefs are not valid, but what they preach is only valid and ultimate true way of spiritual life and philosophy.

cbrahma
21 December 2006, 10:15 AM
Space does not permit to list the bad experiences I've had every time I've become involved with ISKCON temples. The attitudes have been so arrogant, so critical, so completely based , not just on a bodily conception, but a faulty bodily conception, that it takes me months to just recuperate from the shock. That is from the shock of people whose lack of spiritual qualities are so at odds with their external claims and practices.

satay
21 December 2006, 11:10 AM
Space does not permit to list the bad experiences I've had every time I've become involved with ISKCON temples. The attitudes have been so arrogant, so critical, so completely based , not just on a bodily conception, but a faulty bodily conception, that it takes me months to just recuperate from the shock. That is from the shock of people whose lack of spiritual qualities are so at odds with their external claims and practices.

namaste cbrahma and welcome to HDF!

There are many people that are not happy with the way ISKCON is being run right now. All indications are that this is not how sirla prabhupada wanted the organization run. However, as your post alludes to the 'people' part of the problem, it is also my experience in every part of life that it is the people that are the problem not the teachings of sages.

This thread is an old one and a lot has changed on this forum since the first post was made on this thread. You are welcomed to share your experiences here freely, however, we (members of this forum) are finding that focusing on positive aspects of all things related to dharma is in the best interests of all. There is a lot of positive energy flowing on this forum right now, let's experience it together, okay?

Read some posts by Yajvan, saidevo, Agnideva and SM78, not to mention the posts of sarabhanga and atanu.

thanks,

c.smith
20 January 2007, 05:10 PM
Hello everyone. I am again studying some on ISKCON and trying to keep an open mind despite some of my previous posts.

I read recently that one should chant the Mahamantra a minimum of 12 rounds a day (as opposed to the 16 that is prescribed by initiated devotees though the more the merrier) for a number (it suggested 6) of months to help purify the mind. My feeling on this is what the heck. The mantra is pleasing to recite and although it takes about 5 minutes a round, I'm willing to see if the results will surface.

I'm not sure where I stand with ISKCON right now but I don't have to decide one way of the other right now. My focus is on serving the Lord to the best of my ability.

yajvan
20 January 2007, 06:12 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Hello everyone. I am again studying some on ISKCON and trying to keep an open mind despite some of my previous posts.

My feeling on this is what the heck. The mantra is pleasing to recite and although it takes about 5 minutes a round, I'm willing to see if the results will surface.

I'm not sure where I stand with ISKCON right now but I don't have to decide one way of the other right now. My focus is on serving the Lord to the best of my ability.

Namaste CS
I have no opinion on ISKCON... japa is good, transcending is better.
Continue as you see fit. Think about the transcending part, this is yajya. It should not occur as an 'oooops something happened' vs. a regularly scheudled innocent experience. As my teacher has instructed me, expect nothing, remain innocent.

WE start simple and easy ... the Mahamantra of Krsna is very good and is the ISKCON mantra. No doubt this is most excellent , if done correctly.

more as usual, and as you see fit.

Ganeshprasad
21 January 2007, 06:24 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


japa is good, transcending is better.
Continue as you see fit. Think about the transcending part, this is yajya. It should not occur as an 'oooops something happened' vs. a regularly scheudled innocent experience. As my teacher has instructed me, expect nothing, remain innocent.

.

Jai Ganesh

Pranam

I like the above



My Experience with Iskcon goes a long way, infect I have been attending Sunday program for almost 31 years. I like the Arti ceremony and their respect for the deities; of course the prasad is always good
but above all I love the sankirtan the chanting of Hare Krishna mantra, one can see a lot of devotees enjoying and dancing and one might be forgiven to think that they are really into it in a big way and some of them might even be, but I never felt part of them and like all good things the high of the kirtan must end some time.
I have never felt the need to chant a certain amount of rounds as prescribed by them although for the sake of discipline (this I got in my Hindu upbringing I can’t thank enough my parents for that) rules are important and is good to follow but to do it mechanically, just finish it some how is not my idea of japa, although there is no loss even in doing that I must confess.
I would prefer to do one round in concentration sitting down, we must remember god in all situations for that I do not need to do japa. I feel to be a part of a sampradaya is important to a certain degree but I also feel it can stifle spiritual growth, it has it’s boundaries within which one has to operate and some times the original goal is lost in the glories of the institute then the actual progress in spiritual life
I have kept aloof from the politics and there is a lot that goes on which I would not wish to go in to because despite all that the chanting of the holy name far outweighs the short comings.

Hari Bol
Har Har Mahadev har
Jai Shree Krishna

Ekadasi
27 July 2007, 06:37 AM
Here is my observation of ISKCON and how it works.........I was a ISKCON Krishna devotee for more than 15 years, now I chant and practise Bhakti at home. As much as I love the Prasada, Deity's and Bhajans, I can't even tolerate to visit the place. The people that treated you like a piece of sh-- are still there firmly entrenched in their positions.
Devotees have no voice (no voting, even though the founder set up a voting system) that is why you'll see them on different web sites complaining, arguing, and crying.... if ISKCON GBC management really cared for preaching Krishna Bhakti they would of fixed up the internal management that has driven all the devotees away, but they don't really care, it's a business that keeps them in a lifestyle they don't want to lose, plus there is always a turnover of fresh naive subservient recruits to control and brainwash so they don't need those dissatisfied wiser ones complaining. So the GBC silently sit back watching the frustrated devotees airing their grievances online not saying a word....sometimes they might remark 'the dogs might bark but the caravan goes on', or words to that effect. And the show does go on. The ISKCON GBC dictate everything....they have become like Gods and act like it, and the temple presidents obey the GBC to secure their positions. That’s how it works in ISKCON...unfortunately all those bad qualities come right down the ladder to effect everyone in contact. So most of the devotees have had bad experiences in their devotee relationships that have psychologically effected them. The GBC initiating Gurus use their disciples like pawns to secure their positions of power within the hierarchy.
Whatever good the GBC did and do is counteracted by their offences to thousands of devotees....so they are going nowhere.....maybe to hell for screwing up their founders math. This has been my observation of ISKCON. One temple president said it 'as it is' about ISKCON....if you are not it you are sh--. And that is how most people are treated. Most of the problems in ISKCON can be traced back to a predatory takeover of Srila Prabhupada's math when he left his body . There is a also a lot of evidence pointing to the poisoning of Srila Prabhupada .

yajvan
27 July 2007, 06:56 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Here is my observation of ISKCON and how it works.I was a ISKCON Krishna devotee for more than 15 years, now I chant and practise Bhakti at home. As much as I love the Prasada, Deity's and Bhajans,

Namaste Ekadasi,

and your relationship with the Lord, how is that? Did some good , even a drop come of this experience?

pranams,

Kaos
27 July 2007, 07:36 AM
Namaste Ekadasi,

I took part in sankirtans with ISKON devotees during my teen years back in the 70's. Although I never did got within the inner circle, I could sense there was something wrong within the "management structure" so to speak.

I was too young to care about issues like that, besides, I got distracted with other pursuits, so, I stopped joining the group.

But my question is, is your relationship with Krishna or with ISKON??

bhargavsai
22 January 2008, 07:50 AM
For me Spirituality means happiness, and peace, and Freedom. And for everyone I think that the most necessary thing in spirituality must be Freedom.

When I have read what you have said, I am shocked. I feel that life would be like a prison, or even worse, always boring if we join such a temple.

I was having somewhere in my mind something about ISKCON, but now I have erased everything and will never join that. I think I will never join any religious group, rather I will develop my mind in spirituality through self effort etc.

I have had great feelings for ISKCON, but I have heard many things, like considering other Gods as secondary, I have even read about the Sankara's defaming by ISKCON. I thought in Hindus many people have tolerant beliefs, but I have found that some people are extremely fanatic, and I find this as the effect of ISKCON.

for example a die hard Fanatic of ISKCON has asked a question:
'How many qualities of Krishna does Shiva have?'
What a Idiotic question?
She says me that I should not worship any God, she says as if worshiping other Gods is a Sin... What a Fanaticism, she was practicing ISKCON from 15 years!!!!!

Thank You Brother
You have given me a new concept of spirituality now a days...

Sri Vaishnava
22 January 2008, 08:00 AM
ISKCON does not defame Sankara. They defame the mordern advaitins like Vivekananda and Ramakrishna who have distorted the purport of true Advaita.

And all Vaishnavas say that Shiva has just two or three gunas of Krishna. Shiva is a guna avatar of Vishnu, meaning, he has a few, but not all characteristics of Vishnu. Hence, he is considered subordinate to Vishnu. Worshipping Shiva is not a sin, but is discouraged nonetheless, as per the Gita.

This has vedantic and upanishadic backing. Read the Vaishnava interpretation of the Vedas, which show that Rudra is an aspect, but not wholly Narayana.

According to ISKCON, Sankaracharya is an avatar of Shiva. Their intense passion for Krishna is the reason why they can't digest the idea of impersonalism...neither can any Vaishnava. The concept of a formless brahman makes everything bleak, cold and devoid of happiness for any vaishnava.

sarabhanga
22 January 2008, 07:25 PM
The concept of a formless brahman makes everything devoid of happiness for any vaishnava.

And that is because they would deny the ultimate truth that advaitam IS shivam, having cast nara out of heaven in exactly the same way that christians have treated the sanAtana nara (as “satan”) who is the unnamable advaita rudra !

advaitam itself CANNOT be worshipped, only being known in perfect meditation.

And ALL worship MUST be offered to nArAyaNa (as brahmA or viSNu or mahAdeva).

TatTvamAsi
22 January 2008, 08:07 PM
And that is because they would deny the ultimate truth that advaitam IS shivam, having cast nara out of heaven in exactly the same way that christians have treated the sanAtana nara (as “satan”) who is the unnamable advaita rudra !

advaitam itself CANNOT be worshipped, only being known in perfect meditation.

And ALL worship MUST be offered to nArAyaNa (as brahmA or viSNu or mahAdeva).

well said! Somebody, give this man a beer, I mean, some payasa! :D

Yogkriya
09 February 2008, 10:43 PM
ISKCON does not defame Sankara. They defame the mordern advaitins like Vivekananda and Ramakrishna who have distorted the purport of true Advaita.

And all Vaishnavas say that Shiva has just two or three gunas of Krishna. Shiva is a guna avatar of Vishnu, meaning, he has a few, but not all characteristics of Vishnu. Hence, he is considered subordinate to Vishnu. Worshipping Shiva is not a sin, but is discouraged nonetheless, as per the Gita.

This has vedantic and upanishadic backing. Read the Vaishnava interpretation of the Vedas, which show that Rudra is an aspect, but not wholly Narayana.

According to ISKCON, Sankaracharya is an avatar of Shiva. Their intense passion for Krishna is the reason why they can't digest the idea of impersonalism...neither can any Vaishnava. The concept of a formless brahman makes everything bleak, cold and devoid of happiness for any vaishnava.

Oh Yes, Iskcon defames Shankara!! Iskcon defames everybody at one point or the other in one way or the other unless it belongs to the Gaudiya leneage of Vaishvaism. And so do the Gaudiyas. Gaudiyas bash iskconites too. Although the philosophy is the same. I've learnt this again and again through extensive discussions and debates with Iskcon and Gaudiya people for the past 20 years! And these people have come from all walks of life - Indians, Europeans, Americans many..

The problem with the philosophy is that its full of double standards. In every way. In spiritual interpretations, in organizational policies, in everything. Maybe that's a characteristic of Achintya-bhedabhed philosophy.

Accepting Krishna as all and all is great!!! But bashing others?? Putting down every other God/goddess? Sick!!

One good example of double standards -
Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said that a Vaishnava should be more humble than the blade of grass. And should never criticize another devotee. He should be the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord!!! This is explained thus in Gaudiya lineage as - you should serve the servant of the servant of the servant/devotee of Lord to gain his mercy. Now the Hare Krsnas consider Lord Shiva as the Top most "Devotee" of Lord Krsna! Why don't they worship him ever. Further they consider putting Shiva picture at the same level as Krsna as a "blasphemy" and Shiva "in the mode of ignorance and tamoguna"!!!
Vaishnava shouldn't criticize other devotees. But Abhaya Charan (founder acharya of Iskcon) trotted the globe calling himself as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, but calling Shri RamaKrishna Paramhansa as fool and rascal. Same for Vivekananda, same for Rabindranath Tagore, Shri Aurobindo, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi ... hardly anyone was left out... whereas the company of Iskcon devotees are considered auspicious and spiritual and praised as much as possible.
I once compared this to an aggressive cheap marketing strategy.

Hinduism is considered as "hodge-podge dried out branches of religious customs" that are not effective anymore. All the mantras and rituals are not effective in Kaliyuga. There is no other way to reach God except "HAre Krishna chanting". Krishna should be written as Krsna. All Hindus are "Mayavadis" and "impersonalists" and all Gods including Lord Shiva are "Demi-Gods" and people worshipping them are considered as "fools"!!!

I can go on and on about it... !

The aspect of Rudra is there in the Vedas and Upanishads. But Hare Krsnas and Vaishnavas accept only those aspects that don't hail Shiva as the supreme. Narayana and Vishnu have worshipped Shiva in every incarnation!!
Rama Worshipped Shiva so did Krishna. I asked an Iskcon Guru why did Krishna worship Shiva then?? He said oh that was just a "lila" and he was showing as example on how to worship. I said well then why don't you follow his example? The Hare Krishnas don't follow Krishna, but Gaudiya sampradaya. Lord Krishna's philosophy in Bhagwad Gita and Prabhupada's purports and philosophy of the Gita do not do justice. I've read most books written, translated or commented by Prabhupada. They only reflect the Gaudiya interpretation of Gita. Not Sanatana interpretation. When Krishna talks of Yog and Brahma and Karma, Prabhupada fails there. When Krishna talks of the stages of dhyana and practical kriya and yog, prabhupada cannot go any deeper.
If Shiva was not that important, Rama and Krishna wouldn't have worshipped him! Arjuna wouldn't have worshipped him even though Krishna was with him. All the great sages like Vishwamitra, Agastya, Vashishtha wouldn't have worshipped him. oh btw, these sages have no respect or place in the Iskcon books. Iskcon has only place for Gaudiya Bengali rishis mostly. Once in a while they can talk about Kapila muni or King Bali etc.
Lord Chaitanya is Krishna's direct incarnation in Kaliyuga according to Iskcon. But Shri Chaitanya himself never claimed so, just as Lord Krishna did. On the contrary Chaitanya a highly elevated bhakti saint, was in pain from separation from Krishna his Lord.

Iskcon philosophy has divided Krsna, Vishnu and Shiva into mathematical equations like - Krsna is 100% God, Vishnu is something 92, Shiva is 87%...
I thought God is infinity. But I was amazed at the calculative prowess!! How do you calculate 97 % of infinity?

But still I like the bhakti sankirtana. Despite the strong God positioning politics in its philosophy, practice of bhakti and following of regulatory principles is very good. I think that is the best part of Iskcon. Although it goes over at times with fanaticism. But still good. Mostly devotees are humble or try to be, until talked about the difference in philosophy. Until you start disagreeing with their philosophy.

Here's another double standard. Bhakti is given importance and than gyana and scriptural which is demoted at times when other people indulge in it. But its just a winning point in an argument. In fact the Hare Krsnas love to impound scriptural prowess and many newer interpretations of the scriptures have been churned out by them. Then there are the new words and definitions like "Supreme personality of Godhead", Karmi (ordinary people), "Mayavadis", Impersonalists etc..

The Hare Krsna world is divided into two categories - devotees (of course hare krsnas) and karmis. Karmis are bad ass!!! Devotees are holy. :)
You choose who do you wanna be??

Hare Krsna!!

Bob G
10 February 2008, 06:12 AM
Pardon me for jumping in on this thread; I have not studied very much about ISKCON, but wasn't there a big issue (for several years in the U.S.) about them buying many guns and more or less using methods of mind control and other cult like methods of control over the people involved? (which to me is against the Self-discovery as meant in the practice of the Yogas)

Om

Yogkriya
10 February 2008, 10:00 AM
Pardon me for jumping in on this thread; I have not studied very much about ISKCON, but wasn't there a big issue (for several years in the U.S.) about them buying many guns and more or less using methods of mind control and other cult like methods of control over the people involved? (which to me is against the Self-discovery as meant in the practice of the Yogas)
Om

Namaskar!
Iskcon is against "self discovery". It says why do you want to discover anything and experience anything when everything is written in books by God himself?? The ancient Indian sages were spiritual scientists in their own rights. They discovered, researched and established many wonderful things in every field. Iskcon doesn't really credit them with anything. It considers every branch of knowledge as non practical in Kali yuga and that the only way is sankirtana. Period. And all other forms of yoga are inferior except their form of bhakti yoga that includes chanting Hare Krishna mantra only, book distribution, propaganda, festivals, eating and giving prasad (food taken after being offered to deities), practicing 4 regulatory principles (10 out of the 12 Gurus that Srila PRabhupada established for running the Iskcon worldwide Governing Body Commission fell from their positions due to sex, cheating and other scandals), and a few other things.
Its propagated as "Vedic" to gain ground, but doesn't read Vedas or Upanishads. Main books are Bhagwatam, Bhagwad Gita and Chaitanya Charitamrita (not a Vedic scripture). All other translations of Bhawad Gita and Bhagwatam are readily rejected until and unless translated and purported by Prabhupada in his own way. Advaita philosophy and translations are rejected. Shiva and Durga worship is rejected and put down.
Prabhupada said "people of low intelligence worship "Demi-Gods"! And Shiva is a mere "Demi-God"." But then I ask them 'why the hell did Krishna himself worship Shiva? Was he of low intelligence?? Was Rama of low intelligence?? was Kunti, Arjuna, Vashishtha, Agastya, Vishwamitra, all were of 'low intelligence', then they have no answers except to quote another shloka (verse) from Bhagwatam or Gita. Interestingly enough they miss out on the verses when Krishna asks Arjuna to worship the Gods with Yagya and rituals and please them in Bhagwad Gita to attain the highest goal of life. They also miss out the Anushasana Parva of Mahabharata when the same Lord Krishna speaks to Yudhishthira about his great penances that he performed to please Lord Shiva after having attained the Maha Pashupat Diksha (initiation) from Upmanyu Rishi in his ashram. Krishna stood on one leg for months without food or water to please Lord Shiva and attains hsi darshana and seeks boons from him and hails him beautifully reciting the sacred and rare Shiva Sahastranama.
Iskcon rejects everything except their own translations of selected scriptures.
Jai Shri Krishna!!

Yogkriya
11 February 2008, 04:58 AM
My experience with Iskcon and Gaudiya backed organizations is that they resort to dirty tactics when they can't answer certain questions. This also applies very well to pro Iskcon Gaudiya forums like http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/
That are totally biased. If someone is winning in a debate with pro Iskcon people, the biased moderators simply block the user.

suresh
11 February 2008, 09:14 AM
My experience with Iskcon and Gaudiya backed organizations is that they resort to dirty tactics when they can't answer certain questions. This also applies very well to pro Iskcon Gaudiya forums like http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/
That are totally biased. If someone is winning in a debate with pro Iskcon people, the biased moderators simply block the user.

You're right, especially about that forum. But it's not like they only attack non-Vaishnavas and Mayavadis. They also attack Gaudiya Vaishnavas, if they don't agree with their (Iskcon's) pet theories like Jesus being Vaishnava and the rest.:)

Someone rightly questioned as to why Jesus is given such an exalted position, why he's given more respect than other Hindu acharyas. Guess what? He was called a Hindu fundamentalist.:( So anyone who questions Jesus is a Hindu fanatic, to prove that you're a true Hindu, you must worship Jesus, how reasonable!

But to be fair, I think this problem is restricted to Iskconites. Most gaudiyas don't subscribe to such PC nonsense. Also, this seems to be a common Hindu attitude rather than a gaudiya/iskcon one, in that most Hindus actually believe in the divinity of Jesus, Mohammed, validity of bible/koran, that all paths are one, and the rest of that PC stuff.:)

Yogkriya
11 February 2008, 11:38 AM
You're right, especially about that forum. But it's not like they only attack non-Vaishnavas and Mayavadis. They also attack Gaudiya Vaishnavas, if they don't agree with their (Iskcon's) pet theories like Jesus being Vaishnava and the rest.:)

Someone rightly questioned as to why Jesus is given such an exalted position, why he's given more respect than other Hindu acharyas. Guess what? He was called a Hindu fundamentalist.:( So anyone who questions Jesus is a Hindu fanatic, to prove that you're a true Hindu, you must worship Jesus, how reasonable!

But to be fair, I think this problem is restricted to Iskconites. Most gaudiyas don't subscribe to such PC nonsense. Also, this seems to be a common Hindu attitude rather than a gaudiya/iskcon one, in that most Hindus actually believe in the divinity of Jesus, Mohammed, validity of bible/koran, that all paths are one, and the rest of that PC stuff.:)

Suresh ji, I used to think the same until I met people from the Gaudiya math too. Now there is a competition between Iskcon and Gaudiya math. Gaudiya math people think that Iskcon made money in the west on their teachings as Gaudiya is original. Iskcon thinks that Prabhupada did what Gauidya math didn't, and when Prabupada came back from the west to Bengal w ith his western disciples and asked his Gaudiya God brothers to help him with the preaching with his newly formed organization, they didn't help him. So there is a feeling of competition and non compatibility. So the problem is not restricted to Iskconites. The Gaudiyas are even more defensive about it. I met a Gaudiya Guru who said that "only we have pure bhakti and no one even in India has any pure bhakti except the Gaudiyas and that Iskcon hasn't got that level of Bhakti either!" These were his exact words. VEry opinionated and judgmental
You are right that there are fanatical radical opinions in Iskcon and Gaudiya math. But then, you must also notice that it is just a 500 years old cult that has undergone several changes of opinions since its formation to its present position. Its views are based on the developements that took place within the narrow bengali sampradaya that didn't accept anyone else. Even the saints that are worshipped and recognized are only the gaudiya (Bengali) saints. Ever wondered why communism flourished in Bengal alone? I have nothing against the Bengalis. Bengal has produced a number of saints. But the Gaudiyas are narrowly restricted to their own lot and do not respect of accept any other saints even if they have realized the same goal what they are pursuing.
Anyone who questions anything that is not in line with the Hare Krishna exact philosophy is off!! This is the tendency.
Regards.

Baobobtree
11 February 2008, 12:39 PM
Yogikriya by the sounds of it, you've only really looked into ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math. Look up "Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism", "Sahajiya", or "Oriya Vaishnavism". You'll see there are some much more liberal followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu out there.

Yogkriya
11 February 2008, 01:18 PM
Yogikriya by the sounds of it, you've only really looked into ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math. Look up "Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism", "Sahajiya", or "Oriya Vaishnavism". You'll see there are some much more liberal followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu out there.

Glad to have u at the Hindu Dharma Forums too Baobobtree!! As such I'm getting blocked from the Audrya site. Since I spoke a different language not pro iskcon.
Oriya Vaishnvism? When they throw all prasadam cuz some foreigner enter the temple doors? I would rather give it to the poor.
There should be some difference between old Gaudiya Vaishnavism I guess. But the only popular representative of it in the outside world that we find are Iskcon or modern day Gaudiya aggressive preachers who are radical in their approach. Regards.

Yogkriya
12 February 2008, 01:24 AM
Yogikriya by the sounds of it, you've only really looked into ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math. Look up "Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism", "Sahajiya", or "Oriya Vaishnavism". You'll see there are some much more liberal followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu out there.

Baobobtree, I believe the original Gaudiya or followers of Shri Chaitanya nearer to his time were different than the present day modern gaudiyas and Iskcon leadership. More and more political elements have have seeped into it. More control issues with properties, maths and mass follower gaining issues. This wasn't the case then. I'm also aware of the changes that took place from Jeev Goswami onwards. The westward turn that Shri Bhaktisiddhanta made in order to bring the holy name to the west and the convincing the westerners explanations. I've found the 'bhakti' aspect alone attractive in it. Not the religious / political aspects and God positioning and bringing under one's organization tactics by various means. I have disagreed of many translations and purports of Shrila Prabhupada at places which essentially are from a later day Gaudiya perspective only and don't cover all aspects of Sanatana dharma and yog in depth as did Shri Krishna in BG. I couldn't consider Prabhupada as an authority on Yog shastra or Lord Shiva - Shakta or Shaiva aspects without which the study of sanatana dharma seems incomplete. I have loved the association with some of the older gaudiyas who reflected love and bhakti and sheer humbleness.

Baobobtree
12 February 2008, 07:45 PM
There should be some difference between old Gaudiya Vaishnavism I guess. But the only popular representative of it in the outside world that we find are Iskcon or modern day Gaudiya aggressive preachers who are radical in their approach. Regards. Well, perhaps in the West. But, the majority of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are traditionalists. In fact there's even a small community of them growing in the west. There's a nice site about one of the most prominent traditional Gaudiyas; Ananta Das Babaji and many of the writings he's published here- http://www.krishnacaitanya.com/index.php


Oriya Vaishnvism? When they throw all prasadam cuz some foreigner enter the temple doors? If you're speaking about the folks who run the Jagannath Puri temple, most Oriya Vaishnava organizations I've been able to track teach things quiet contrary to that non-Indian policy of theirs. You'll find a site about them here- http://srijagannath.org/

Yogkriya
12 February 2008, 10:19 PM
Well, perhaps in the West. But, the majority of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are traditionalists. In fact there's even a small community of them growing in the west. There's a nice site about one of the most prominent traditional Gaudiyas; Ananta Das Babaji and many of the writings he's published here- http://www.krishnacaitanya.com/index.php

If you're speaking about the folks who run the Jagannath Puri temple, most Oriya Vaishnava organizations I've been able to track teach things quiet contrary to that non-Indian policy of theirs. You'll find a site about them here- http://srijagannath.org/




Thanks for the site references Baobobtree. I'll gladly look at them.
Regards.

suresh
14 February 2008, 06:13 AM
Suresh ji, I used to think the same until I met people from the Gaudiya math too. Now there is a competition between Iskcon and Gaudiya math. Gaudiya math people think that Iskcon made money in the west on their teachings as Gaudiya is original. Iskcon thinks that Prabhupada did what Gauidya math didn't, and when Prabupada came back from the west to Bengal w ith his western disciples and asked his Gaudiya God brothers to help him with the preaching with his newly formed organization, they didn't help him.

Namaste Yogkriya,

All believers are fanatical to an extent-Christians, Muslims, Vaishnavas. So it's not surprising that Vaishnavas, whether gaudiya or sri, are also fanatical and foul-mouthed more often than not. It's a natural trait of the believers.

Prabhapada himself was foul-mouthed for the most part, calling Vivekananda a demon, Ramakrishna "an impotent rascal", and so forth. His disciples are much worse, try this guy Atmatatva Das and listen to the filth he comes up with, every time he talks about advaita or other non-vaishnava schools.:(

Do I blame Vaishnavism? Not at all, I blame belief systems in general. Any religion that's based on faith is going to end up as a fanatical, intolerant religion. And Vaishnavism, like Christianity, is just a symptom, NOT the disease. The root cause happens to be faith in God and things that cannot be confirmed by the senses or the intellect. That is the primary reason for this bigotry, and Vaishnavism is no exception.;)

Suresh

Yogkriya
14 February 2008, 07:10 AM
Namaste Yogkriya,

All believers are fanatical to an extent-Christians, Muslims, Vaishnavas. So it's not surprising that Vaishnavas, whether gaudiya or sri, are also fanatical and foul-mouthed more often than not. It's a natural trait of the believers.

Prabhapada himself was foul-mouthed for the most part, calling Vivekananda a demon, Ramakrishna "an impotent rascal", and so forth. His disciples are much worse, try this guy Atmatatva Das and listen to the filth he comes up with, every time he talks about advaita or other non-vaishnava schools.:(

Do I blame Vaishnavism? Not at all, I blame belief systems in general. Any religion that's based on faith is going to end up as a fanatical, intolerant religion. And Vaishnavism, like Christianity, is just a symptom, NOT the disease. The root cause happens to be faith in God and things that cannot be confirmed by the senses or the intellect. That is the primary reason for this bigotry, and Vaishnavism is no exception.;)
Suresh

Thanks Sureshji for the nice post. Can you post the related links please?
I tried hard to fight off this fanaticism on Audarya Forum where they claim to promote all sampradayas, but are in fact Iskcon.Gaudiya pro only. May it be any discussion, if they see a non pro Gaudiya person is winning, they block the person. I have been blocked several times. They have people like Jahnava Nitai Das and others who are constantly on the payrol writing stuff that is made to look as "defeating other philosophies". Very biased and double standard!!
Regards,

Yogkriya.

sarabhanga
14 February 2008, 04:11 PM
Do I blame Vaishnavism? Not at all, I blame belief systems in general. Any religion that's based on faith is going to end up as a fanatical, intolerant religion. And Vaishnavism, like Christianity, is just a symptom, NOT the disease. The root cause happens to be faith in God and things that cannot be confirmed by the senses or the intellect. That is the primary reason for this bigotry, and Vaishnavism is no exception.

Namaste Suresh,

Why should faith in one’s religion or belief in one god necessarily result in fanaticism, intolerance, or bigotry? It seems to me that only unconfirmed faith or doubtful belief might lead to such negative conditions ~ since the particular beliefs and practices of another can then appear as a threat to one’s own (partial) belief, raising personal doubts which may be relieved by ignorantly diminishing the other and fanatically promoting one’s own. And such partial believers will only be satisfied when all others share their partial understanding, and then everyone can rest easily in the resulting superficial oneness of blind faith. :(

Bob G
14 February 2008, 05:12 PM
Hello Sarabhanga,

Those were some very good points :cool1: !

Om

suresh
14 February 2008, 11:53 PM
Namaste Sarabhanga,


Namaste Suresh,

Why should faith in one’s religion or belief in one god necessarily result in fanaticism, intolerance, or bigotry? It seems to me that only unconfirmed faith or doubtful belief might lead to such negative conditions

Faith is always unconfirmed, isn't it? If confirmed, it's truth.

The negation of false IS truth, which is why most believers are fanatical, because they have something (false) to hold on to. The advaitin who negates the false has nothing to grasp, which is why you hardly find fanatics amongst their group.

We've come across Chrisitan/Muslim fanatics, even Vaishnava fanatics. But have you ever come across an advaitin fanatic?;) Not likely. This is because most religions define truth or god in positive terms. God is the jealous father, as in Christianity, god is hateful as in Islam, or in Vaishnavism, god plays the flute, and so on. Once a positive definition is established, opposition (to those terms) is round the corner, so fanaticism becomes inevitable, when the followers try to defend their ideas.

As advaita believes in defining the truth negatively, through 'neti, neti', no opposition is possible, and hence no fanaticism.

Suresh

sarabhanga
15 February 2008, 12:45 AM
Namaste Suresh,

I see your point. Although fanaticism and intolerance are not intended by any true religion, there is a much greater tendency for such negative outcomes among followers of dvaitavAda than there is with followers of advaitavAda.

Yogkriya
15 February 2008, 09:08 AM
Namaste Sarabhanga,

Faith is always unconfirmed, isn't it? If confirmed, it's truth.

The negation of false IS truth, which is why most believers are fanatical, because they have something (false) to hold on to. The advaitin who negates the false has nothing to grasp, which is why you hardly find fanatics amongst their group.

We've come across Chrisitan/Muslim fanatics, even Vaishnava fanatics. But have you ever come across an advaitin fanatic?;) Not likely. This is because most religions define truth or god in positive terms. God is the jealous father, as in Christianity, god is hateful as in Islam, or in Vaishnavism, god plays the flute, and so on. Once a positive definition is established, opposition (to those terms) is round the corner, so fanaticism becomes inevitable, when the followers try to defend their ideas.

As advaita believes in defining the truth negatively, through 'neti, neti', no opposition is possible, and hence no fanaticism.
Suresh

Very well said Suresh ji!
But Hare Krsnas / Iskcon consider advaitvad as "impersonalists" and "mayavadis" rejecting them altogether.

atanu
15 February 2008, 10:59 AM
Namaste Sarabhanga,
Faith is always unconfirmed, isn't it? If confirmed, it's truth.
-
As advaita believes in defining the truth negatively, through 'neti, neti', no opposition is possible, and hence no fanaticism.



The statement "As advaita believes in defining the truth negatively", itself implies faith. Shankara never taught unfaith in Sruti proclaiming the truth of Brahman-God.

Advaitin, based on logically derived faith (and not necessarily based on experience), believes that Dvaita is a product of Advaita and thus is not fanatic. Sattwik faith (one Lord equally pervading everything) usually will not lead to bigotry. Whereas Rajasic and Tamasic faiths (God separate from so called creation) will be prone towards bigotry.

Om

Ganeshprasad
15 February 2008, 12:30 PM
Pranam Atanu ji

Thanks for your clarification.

Faith in any concept or religion one follows in itself has no evil,
Problem only arises when some one tries to shove it in to someone’s face.
Hindu dharma is not about propagating and swelling numbers but it is about following, out of ones own free will.

If only people heed the advise of Shree Krishna,

idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati

This (knowledge) should never be spoken by you to one who is devoid of austerity, who is without devotion, who does not desire to listen, or who speaks ill of Me. (18.67)

Jai Shree Krishna

Bob G
15 February 2008, 05:59 PM
Imo: negation of mentation is a key part of what is meant...which delivers one to a different kind of threshold, and that threshold is not crossed without involment of the power of faith, which is more than only thinking about it.

Spirit gives unto Spirit.

Om

suresh
16 February 2008, 12:30 AM
Namaste Atanu,


The statement "As advaita believes in defining the truth negatively", itself implies faith. Shankara never taught unfaith in Sruti proclaiming the truth of Brahman-God.


We can always remove the word 'believes', and it'll read: As advaita defines the truth negatively. Which means, faith isn't necessary. So let's not pay too much attention to words, let's not analyze too much.

Point being, with or without faith, existence or sat can never be questioned by anyone, not even by the atheist. The way they define existence may vary. The atheist may define it in one way, the dvaitin in another, and so forth. But the fact of existence is never questioned or denied. So it follows that faith isn't necessary. Logic is the one thing that matters, or our ancestors wouldn't have gone through the trouble of producing so much literature (or engaging in debates), if all of it is based on faith.


Sattwik faith (one Lord equally pervading everything) usually will not lead to bigotry. Whereas Rajasic and Tamasic faiths (God separate from so called creation) will be prone towards bigotry.

I am sorry, but I'll have to disagree. Based on faith, whether satvik or not, one may view god as all-pervasive, but that's no guarantee that this attitude is going to prevent bigotry. The person concerned may not hesitate to attack those believing otherwise. That's always a possibility, isn't it? Not only that, this sort of subjective view can be used by a christian to claim his faith alone is satvik, and so on. And it'll be impossible to ascertain the truth, when the whole thing becomes subjective.

What I am trying to say is: why depend on faith, when logic can (and does) suffice?

Suresh

suresh
16 February 2008, 12:43 AM
Faith in any concept or religion one follows in itself has no evil,


Sorry to butt in, but faith is required only if reasoning fails. So faith is intrinsically evil, especially when it concerns religion. Christianity and Islam are terrific examples.


Problem only arises when some one tries to shove it in to someone’s face.

And who tries to shove it down your throat? Only those who have 'faith' in their religion. You wouldn't normally find a faithless person doing this, would you? Do you ever find a scientist trying to convert people to his viewpoint through force and fraud, or is this peculiar habit restricted to religious people, people who have faith? We've heard of religious wars, wars in the name of god, all based on faith. Do we ever find such things happening in the field of science or rationalism, which is devoid of faith? The answer is self-evident.

Which doesn't mean I am bashing all religions. But to harp on faith all the time, when Hinduism has much more to offer.....I find this to be an extremely puzzling attitude amongst Hindus. Most 'modern' Hindus sound pretty semitic to me, constantly speaking their language which includes faith, belief etc.

Suresh

atanu
16 February 2008, 01:58 AM
Namaskar Suresh,


We can always remove the word 'believes', and it'll read: As advaita defines the truth negatively

Defining involves assumptions. And the only assumption Advaita relies on are the Abheda srutis of Vedas. Following a course of action also depends on the faith on the validity of definitions etc.



But the fact of existence is never questioned or denied.

This is the finest point from you. However, logic alone cannot get the truth that the existence is one, without help from Sruti. Shankara is very emphatic on this.

Om

Ganeshprasad
16 February 2008, 10:51 AM
Pranam Suresh


Sorry to butt in, but faith is required only if reasoning fails.

Suresh

Feel free this is an open forum, as explained before mere reasoning can never reach you to final goal.



So faith is intrinsically evil, especially when it concerns religion. Christianity and Islam are terrific examples.

You are basing your opinion on faith on account of your experience with Christianity and Islam don’t let that cloud your judgement on faith.
Krishna says that is if you have faith in him,

Faith in sacrifice, charity, and austerity is also called SAT. The action for the sake of the Supreme is verily termed as SAT. (17.27)
Whatever is done without faith; whether it is sacrifice, charity, austerity, or any other act; is called Asat. It has no value here or hereafter, O Arjuna. (17.28)




And who tries to shove it down your throat? Only those who have 'faith' in their religion. You wouldn't normally find a faithless person doing this, would you?

Not quite, only misguided person resort to such tactics, and faithless person is no exception, in fact he is worse he will tell you live a little there is no god eat, wine and be merry for who has seen tomorrow.



Do you ever find a scientist trying to convert people to his viewpoint through force and fraud, or is this peculiar habit restricted to religious people, people who have faith? We've heard of religious wars, wars in the name of god, all based on faith. Do we ever find such things happening in the field of science or rationalism, which is devoid of faith? The answer is self-evident.

No one is disputing force is evil, we can go on discussing merit of scientist but that is not relevant, your answers well may be evident to you but I can tell you science have produced some of the worst weapon that can kill humanity out of existence but I have faith nothing can happen without the will of god on grand scale of things.




Which doesn't mean I am bashing all religions. But to harp on faith all the time, when Hinduism has much more to offer.....I find this to be an extremely puzzling attitude amongst Hindus. Most 'modern' Hindus sound pretty semitic to me, constantly speaking their language which includes faith, belief etc.

Perhaps you can tell us what Hinduism has to offer then we can see where you are coming from.


Jai Shree Krishna