PDA

View Full Version : Will The Real Universe Please Stand Up?



yajvan
08 October 2007, 09:19 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Akala ( one without parts)

When we look to the Universe as a creation from Siva there are a few ways of looking at this from a non-dual advaita view. Since we have been discssiong a bit of Kashmir Shaivism, perhaps this post will stiimulate a few ideas and some conversations on this matter.

For those practicing Kashmir Shaivism do not hesitate to add corrections and additional insights as you see fit, as we are all students here.

Of Kashmir Shaivism we now it it be a non-dual (advaita) view of existence. Siva, this Being is the nature and existence of all beings. The Shaiva also holds that the world we view from the senses, although experienced as separate from one's self, does not have a separate existence. It is the energy, shakti, of Siva.

Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta are both on par as they see creation-existence as non-dual. Yet Kashmir Shaivism is a bit different then Advaita Vedanta. How can this be ? It is the same Siva. Are we splitting hairs?

In a nutshell Advaita Vedanta suggests the universe and this existence is unreal, some call it a false projection , then named maya. We have taked much about this in multiple posts on this maya. Yet we scratch our heads on this.

To the Kashmir Shaiva one could say hold on... If Shiva is real, and we belive it to be so, gurus, sadhus, jivanmuki's tell us this is so, how could an unreal universe manifest from something that is real?

If Shiva, the ultimate essence of existence, is real, his creation must also be real. For the Kashmir Shaiva this universe is just as real as its creator.

We touch and taste and smell the evnronment - sure feels real to me. So here is the pickle for Kashmir Shaivism. If this universe is as real as Siva, it creator, how does Siva, this Tad Ekam [That One], this Unity of Consciousness create a multi-faceted diverse universe as One with Himself?

Just as Advaita Vedanta's view of this creation as maya, Kashmir Shaivism offers this notion of pratibimba-vada or reflection. The notion here is creation happens the same way that the image of an object, say an apple , can be reflected in a mirror. This is explained as abhasa-vada or the therory of appearance. If one Googles on this, you will find more information on this matter.

The next pickle...what causes the reflection if all this is Siva (pure consciousness , the Absolute, Brahman)? It is svatantrya, the independent will of God, His grace say the wise.

It is Siva that creates this whole universe in the mirror of his awareness by his absolutely independent will or svatantrya, his freedom. For me, and my understaniding this is His dance as Natraj. His joy of creating, yet never leaving Himself as all is within His Being.

So the gravamen [ essence or the most serious part] of this view of creation is what is real and what is not real depends on the school of thought. Yet once Moksha dawns, ignorance fades and the Truth is left there standing, then one knows what is real and what is not.


ॐनमःिशवाय
Om Namah Sivaya

pranams,

Eastern Mind
08 October 2007, 01:43 PM
Yajvan: Your last sentence made the most sense to me. Hopefully during moksha, it all won't matter any more. In Subramuniyaswami's words, God Siva is Absolute reality, which would be Parsivam, beyond all time, space, and form. And by logic, beyond all intellectual/emotional, physical senses. Then the rest, the world, souls, etc would just be reality, not Absolute reality. I remember hearing once before I found my path that it was all just maya/illusion. That perhaps for the advanced mystic would hold. But here in the world while we're still striving, in my opinion, that would be a foolish viewpoint to take. We would have a laisez-faire take. If its all illusion anyway, why work, why discuss, why do anything at all? Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
09 October 2007, 07:57 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Yajvan: If its all illusion anyway, why work, why discuss, why do anything at all? Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM
Yes for the practical man/woman this notion of illusion is a concept for the philosophers to debate. One pinches themselves and says I feel this and there is no illusion. I must pay my rent, work, etc.

So , as a mental exercise it is fun to ponder. Yet when I read some of the brilliant works of the enlightened, the Yoga Vasistha in particular, the insights are very useful.

As I see it, its to remove some of the knots in thinking , in dhi, the intelligence. to break some of the strongholds in concepts. Why so? When the experiences of enlightenment begin to happen that are substantial. This prepares the way for one transition to a different view of the world.

If you have not read this great work, Yoga Vasistha, it is worthy of the time spent.


pranams,

sm78
09 October 2007, 08:25 AM
In a nutshell Advaita Vedanta suggests the universe and this existence is unreal, some call it a false projection , then named maya. We have taked much about this in multiple posts on this maya. Yet we scratch our heads on this.

I think a lot of confusion arises because of the words unreal, false. But after-all that is the crux of uncompromising monism ~ which doesn't compromise the Brahman with its appearance.

Advaita says world is unreal only when one realizes the brahman. No one can deny this statement until he/she has "tasted" the brahman. It makes the philosophical reconciliation of vedanta flawless.

Hence I see it as ultimate truth and also as a philosophical necessity. Practically speaking however I translate the word unreal to impermanence. And there be no confusion to the weight and truth in the statement !!

It is said that all philosophies of Sanatana Dharma including Kashmir Saivism which forms the basis of monism of Tantras are stepping stones to KevalAdvaita and Vedanta. eg,.It may make the upsana of shiva a more real and vivid experience when we believe that this Jagat is his real projection and he is ever here to protect us.

Kaos
09 October 2007, 08:38 AM
Namaste yajvan and all,


When I dream, is that me?
I would say, yes.

However, are the activities and perhaps the things that I say in my dream
any different from me?

If they are not different, then, there is no difference between my activities in a dream and my activities when I'm awake.

If they are different. Then, my body in a dream is not real and therefore my body when I'm awake is my real body.

However, I am more than this mere mass of bones, skin, muscles, blood vessels and assembled body parts. I am not just this physical body.

Therefore, perhaps, I can say that this existence, this whole creation this whole universe is an apparent reality. A dream within a dream. Temporary but not false.

There is only Brahman.

yajvan
09 October 2007, 09:56 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namste K and Singhi,
Yes I believe both of you have an excellent view on this matter...

Singhi notes the word 'unreal' may be better served as impermanence. Yes this makes sense. and K, you suggest that we are more then flesh and bones... Absolutely.

So, some of the rishi's say that this impermanence, and this flesh and bone, has an underlying stability that never changes, hence it must be satyam, truth, for it is the same today as it will be a zillion-billion³ eons from now...this turiya. IT never changes.

This is the experience they ask us to consider and make part of ones life.
Then this notion of wake-dream-sleep is the passing of states of consciousness , just like clouds. They form, they give us the benefit of rain, sometimes shade from the sun, then they are gone. Like that, we watch. Yet we become established in something that never changes....

This is the immortality they speak of. Not that we live forever in the flesh, but remember what we are really part of , this level of existence that is infinite in time , space and cause. This is the beauty of Brahman.

thanks for your insights and posts.

pranams,