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vcindiana
08 October 2007, 02:15 PM
There is a touching episode in the book Mortal Lessons by Richard Selzer . It is a brief postoperative discussion which transpires between Selzer and a young couple.
I stand by the bed where a young woman lies, her face post operative, her mouth twisted in palsy, clownish. A tiny twig of faicial nerve, the one to the muscles of her mouth, has been severed. She will be thus from now on. The surgeon has followed with religious fervor the curve of her flesh; I promise you that. Nevertheless, to remove the tumor in her cheek I had to cut the little nerve. Her young husband is in the room. He stands on the opposite side of the bed and together they dwell in the evening lamplight, isolated from me, private. Who are they I ask myself, he and this wry mouth I have made, who gaze at and touch each other so generously and greedily?

The young woman speaks. “Will my mouth always be like this? “She asks.
"Yes” I say “ it will. It is because the nerve was cut."
She nods and is silent. But the young man smiles.
I like it”, he says. “It is kind of cute"

All at once I know who he is. I understand and lower my gaze. One is not bold in an encounter with God. Unmindful, he bends to kiss her crooked mouth and I am so close I can see how he twists his own lips to accommodate to hers, to show her that their kiss still works.
The image of the husband contorting his mouth and twisting his lips for an intimate kiss with his palsied wife haunted me.

atanu
08 October 2007, 08:18 PM
There is a touching episode in the book Mortal Lessons by Richard Selzer . It is a brief postoperative discussion which transpires between Selzer and a young couple.
I stand by the bed where a young woman lies, her face post operative, her mouth twisted in palsy, clownish. A tiny twig of faicial nerve, the one to the muscles of her mouth, has been severed. She will be thus from now on. The surgeon has followed with religious fervor the curve of her flesh; I promise you that. Nevertheless, to remove the tumor in her cheek I had to cut the little nerve. Her young husband is in the room. He stands on the opposite side of the bed and together they dwell in the evening lamplight, isolated from me, private. Who are they I ask myself, he and this wry mouth I have made, who gaze at and touch each other so generously and greedily?

The young woman speaks. “Will my mouth always be like this? “She asks.
"Yes” I say “ it will. It is because the nerve was cut."
She nods and is silent. But the young man smiles.
I like it”, he says. “It is kind of cute"

All at once I know who he is. I understand and lower my gaze. One is not bold in an encounter with God. Unmindful, he bends to kiss her crooked mouth and I am so close I can see how he twists his own lips to accommodate to hers, to show her that their kiss still works.
The image of the husband contorting his mouth and twisting his lips for an intimate kiss with his palsied wife haunted me.

Namaste VC,

The story is touching and lofty.

But at the same time isn't it hypocrisy? Not negating the essential goodness of God which eventually wells up from within, in most similar cases, the husband is likely to hunger for a symmetrical beauty again. Should we drape our emotions in pink and close our eyes to the ever remaining truth of essential ugliness of the cravings of individual ego?


On the other hand, the story exemplifies why God is Shiva -- the Good one, who is eternally above the individual.

Thanks for the story.

Om

vcindiana
09 October 2007, 08:17 AM
Namaste VC,

The story is touching and lofty.

But at the same time isn't it hypocrisy? Not negating the essential goodness of God which eventually wells up from within, in most similar cases, the husband is likely to hunger for a symmetrical beauty again. Should we drape our emotions in pink and close our eyes to the ever remaining truth of essential ugliness of the cravings of individual ego?


On the other hand, the story exemplifies why God is Shiva -- the Good one, who is eternally above the individual.

Thanks for the story.

Om

Thank you for reading.

Hypocrisy in this story is in the eye of the beholder, you be the judge.

I do find acts of God in the acts of fellow human beings, it does stir my heart, not my intellectual.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. ...........................VC

vcindiana
09 October 2007, 09:38 AM
Here's a story about Fiorello LaGuardia who was mayor of New York City during the worst days of the Great Depression and all of W.W.II. He was adored by many New Yorkers who took to calling him the "Little Flower," because he was so short and always wore a carnation in his lapel.

He was a colorful character -- he rode the New York City fire trucks, raided city "speak easies" with the police department, took entire orphanages to baseball games, and when the New York newspapers went on strike, he got on the radio and read the Sunday funnies to the kids.

One bitterly cold night in January of 1935, the mayor turned up at a night court that served the poorest ward of the city. LaGuardia dismissed the judge for the evening and took over the bench himself. Within a few minutes, a tattered old woman was brought before him, charged with stealing a loaf of bread. She told LaGuardia that her daughter's husband had deserted her, her daughter was sick, and her two grandchildren were starving.

But the shopkeeper, from whom the bread was stolen, refused to drop the charges. "It's a real bad neighborhood, your Honor," the man told the mayor. "She's got to be punished to teach other people around here a lesson."

LaGuardia sighed. He turned to the woman and said, "I've got to punish you. The law makes no exceptions. Ten dollars or ten days in jail." But even as he pronounced sentence, the mayor was already reaching into his pocket. He extracted a bill and tossed it into his famous hat, saying, "Here is the ten dollar fine which I now remit; and furthermore I am going to fine everyone in this courtroom fifty cents for living in a town where a person has to steal bread so that her grandchildren can eat. Mr.Bailiff, collect the fines and give them to the defendant."

The following day, New York City newspapers reported that $47.50 was turned over to a bewildered woman who had stolen a loaf of bread to feed her starving grandchildren. Fifty cents of that amount was contributed by the grocery store owner himself, while some seventy petty criminals, people with traffic violations, and New York City policemen, each of whom had just paid fifty cents for the privilege of doing so, gave the mayor a standing ovation.

Someone beautifully said, "Sympathy sees and says, 'I'm sorry.' Compassion sees and says, 'I'll help.' When we learn the difference, we can make a difference.

Thank you for reading.................VC

atanu
10 October 2007, 07:14 AM
Thank you for reading.

Hypocrisy in this story is in the eye of the beholder, you be the judge.

I do find acts of God in the acts of fellow human beings, it does stir my heart, not my intellectual.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. ...........................VC

Namaste VC,

Hypocrisy is not in the story. Stories are stories. Hypocrisy is in the eye of the beholder. True.

When you see god in acts of men, then why can't you see god in men's intellect? Why can't you see goodness in men performing murti puja?

The point is that you seem to see only a preferred set of acts as acts of god. This is my perception and I may be wrong.

Saying all this, I thank you for the good stories.

Om

vcindiana
10 October 2007, 08:25 PM
In O. Henry" s famous short story " The Gift of the Magi" there lives a young poor couple. The wife has only $1.87 to buy her husband a gift and Christmas is next day. Impulsively she decides to sell her long thick hair to buy him a chain for his treasured gold watch. At the same moment he is selling the watch to buy his present for her- special combs for her beautiful hair.

Can you imagine the emotion this couple goes through on the morning of Christmas when they exchange their gifts? Love (God) is indeed awesome.......................................Love VC

sm78
11 October 2007, 02:02 AM
A "real" story ...

A young man meets a elderly gentleman in his late 70's as they are members of the same organization ~ a volunteer social organization. They are briefly acquainted with each other, and their paths cross only occasionally.

The young man is quite poor and is in his struggling phase of life economically speaking. One day he gets to know thorough the organization that the old gentle man is ill. He visits his home as is custom in India to take news of people one even briefly knows. He finds him very ill. Moreover he finds him with absolutely no-one to near him. He learns from neighbor that the old gentleman's wife had died few years back. It is not known whether the couple were childless or the children do not bother to look after their parents. However no one has seen any relative visiting the old man in many years. The only people coming to him were neighbors or people of the aforementioned organization he was volunteer in.

It becomes clear that left in his condition the old man will die in his house without treatment. Yet no one is there to help him. The young man takes him to Govt hospital. Soon it becomes clear that intensive care is necessary for his survival. The young man then admits him to a good nursing home and the old man is admitted to a Intesive Care Unit of a nursing home. He stays there for weeks, showing little or no sign of improvement. Bills run in thousands of rupees, and the young man needs to borrow money from one of his friends to keep paying the bills. At the end of 2 weeks the old man dies, hardly knowing that an almost stranger had tried his best, even borrowing money, to save him.

The young man continues his daily struggles as nothing much has changed for him externally, his economic condition has gotten a bit more worse.

sm78
11 October 2007, 02:17 AM
I have seen the happiness of couples in love and bitterness among couples whose love has gone wrong. In a give and take relationship strong emotions hide the real virtue of giving without seeking.

Much greater are silent acts of compassion.

Another touching story I had read on a newspaper long back...again this happens in India. It was a story of a westerner who had made India his home. Asked what he found so fascinating to stay in a poor country like India living behind the luxury of his home nation, he recounted the following story:-

He was at that time touring India as a young western tourist. He was deeply touched by the proverty that was visible in many places. Once he was taking his breakfast in a road side hotel in a large city. He then noticed a very young girl child begging for food. Her clothes were torn and her body was dirty. He was overcome by emotion at this site and immediately offered the girl a piece of bread. The girl gladly took his donation.

She then tore the bread in 2 pieces and gave half of it to a dog which was with her, before eating the remaining half.


Watching this the western gentleman knew he was in the land of the gods. He never went back.

vcindiana
21 October 2007, 09:19 PM
Last Friday night we experienced a heavy storm, along came a tornado. When people were settling trying to go to bed, a small community near my place was hit with a tornado; several houses were completely demolished beyond recognition. Several people suffered injuries and some had to be hospitalized. Good thing no one died. I happened to be in touch with an elderly lady who went through this painful ordeal. She lost her house, her body was badly hurt. But I was amazed to see her uplifted spirit despite the tragedy. Losing her home was the least in her mind. She was thankful she was alive. She was thankful at least half of her body was still functioning and her mind was intact. She was thankful most of her family and friends were safe. She was thankful all the old pictures which represented beautiful life memories were saved. Visitors flocked to see her. It has been only 2 days, friends and family members are getting together, clean up has almost finished, and they are already drawing plans for the new houses to be built. It is beyond me to imagine how different people coming together, rolling their sleeves to help each other in this small community. I guess this is how God works.

Love....................................VC

sm78
22 October 2007, 01:07 AM
Losing her home was the least in her mind. She was thankful she was alive. She was thankful at least half of her body was still functioning and her mind was intact. She was thankful most of her family and friends were safe. She was thankful all the old pictures which represented beautiful life memories were saved.

In Hindu Dharma this is how ignorance works. Incidents like this bewildered dharmaraj Yudhistir.

All that is build will surely collapse
All that is collected will surely disperse
All that is born will surely die
All that has been done will surely be undone.

vcindiana
22 October 2007, 08:48 AM
In Hindu Dharma this is how ignorance works. Incidents like this bewildered dharmaraj Yudhistir.

All that is build will surely collapse
All that is collected will surely disperse
All that is born will surely die
All that has been done will surely be undone.


Dharmaraj is right. This old lady does know nothing lasts for ever. She also knows life is full of pain and pleasures but she feels it is the beautiful gift. She has a sense of great appreciation and has deep gratitude. She knows life is all about Love and not just some intellectual philosophy.

Love.................................VC

sm78
22 October 2007, 09:02 AM
.... not just some intellectual philosophy.

Love.................................VC

So you think impermanence is intellectual philosophy ?? .......... what can I say !! .............. Love

atanu
22 October 2007, 09:18 AM
The Swindler and the Widow's Mite

from The Parables of Kierkegaard
by Soren Kierkegaard, edited by Thomas Oden.

Is charitable intent essential to an act of charity or mercy?

Take the story about the woman who placed the two pennies in the temple-treasury [Mark 12: 41-44], but let us poetize a little variation. The two pennies were for her a great sum, which she had not quickly accumulated. She had saved for a long time in order to get them saved up, and then she had hidden them wrapped in a little cloth in order to bring them when she herself went up to the temple. But a swindler had detected that she possessed this money, had tricked her out of it, and had exchanged the cloth for an identical piece which was utterly empty - something which the widow did not know. Thereupon she went up to the temple, placed, as she intended, the two pennies, that is, nothing, in the temple-treasury: I wonder if Christ would not still have said what he said of her, that "she gave more than all the rich?"


Om

vcindiana
22 October 2007, 10:53 AM
So you think impermanence is intellectual philosophy ?? .......... what can I say !! .............. Love

I can "think" lots of things. Does it matter?

You have the gift of understanding of the intellectual philosophy and I admire that.

I live in this real world , no matter what all the religious philosophies say I do feel the pain and pleasures of this life, the purpose is getting clear to me, that is to discover what Love is all about.

Love...............................VC

atanu
22 October 2007, 11:52 AM
Love was born first
the gods cannot reach it,
or the spirits, or men....
Far as heaven and earth extend,
far as the waters go,
high as the fire burns,
you are greater, love!
The wind cannot reach you,
nor the fire, nor the sun, nor the moon:
you are greater than them all, love!"

Atharva Veda 9.2.19


It seems that dear VC had a prior peek into the Vedas.

Om

vcindiana
22 October 2007, 09:37 PM
Love was born first
the gods cannot reach it,
or the spirits, or men....
Far as heaven and earth extend,
far as the waters go,
high as the fire burns,
you are greater, love!
The wind cannot reach you,
nor the fire, nor the sun, nor the moon:
you are greater than them all, love!"

Atharva Veda 9.2.19


It seems that dear VC had a prior peek into the Vedas.

Om


Thank you Atanu, I love you for this beautiful post. I do not know much about Vedas. Being the oldest scripture I knew it was somewhere hidden.

I am guessing everything in this world including Karma philosophy (not my favorite), somehow connected to this powerful thing called LOVE, the best name for GOD. This is not about being (physically) powerful or judgmental, or an authority, or some miracle or mystery. Let me try to research this out.

Thank you again, I am excited!!!

Love.......................................................VC

atanu
23 October 2007, 04:01 AM
Thank you Atanu, I love you for this beautiful post. I do not know much about Vedas. Being the oldest scripture I knew it was somewhere hidden.

I am guessing everything in this world including Karma philosophy (not my favorite), somehow connected to this powerful thing called LOVE, the best name for GOD. This is not about being (physically) powerful or judgmental, or an authority, or some miracle or mystery. Let me try to research this out.

Thank you again, I am excited!!!

Love.......................................................VC

Namaskar VC,

Some say desire (which is called good desire being the desire of the Good One), some say Tapas (warmth) and some say Love.

Love in fullness is the manifestation. Ego tends to hide it. Ego thrives because of non-enquiry into one's true nature.

I just wanted to add that if the love is not visible, it is due to false idea of oneself as limited/localised and opposed to every other thing. And the false idea is due to non-enquiry into one's true nature. A little bit contemplation of our states of experience of waking, dreaming and deep sleep brings out the fact that "I" must be different from the experienced objects.

My friend VC, Jnana is also required --- I hope that one day you will agree.

Om

vcindiana
24 October 2007, 04:09 AM
Dear Atanu:

I did not understand well your post"Exploring Karma - Tales of a Universal Principle"

..................The word karma is derived from the Sanskrit root 'kri,' meaning 'to do,' implying that all action is karma. Technically, the term
incorporates both an action and its consequence. Thus Garuda's
karma consisted of the act of carrying away the bird and also its
consequent snatching by the cruel hands of destiny. Hence, a
deed, pure in its content, led to an apparently unfavorable
outcome. Through this subtle tale, we are made to confront a
dilemma which constantly recurs in our own lives, namely, the
relative impurity and purity of an action. Is an action to be
deemed positive or negative solely on the basis of the result it
generates? Or, is there some other criterion? Indeed there is.
What determines the nature of the karma is the will or intention
behind an act. As is mentioned in the Buddhist text Anguttara
Nikaya, published by the Pali Text Society, "It is will
that I call karma; having willed, one acts through
body, speech or mind.".......

"One who acts with the best of intentions, does not get the sin
of the outward consequence of his action." (Yoga Sikha).

"Some undertakings succeed and others fail. That is due to the
divine order of things. If a man does his part of the work, no
sin touches him." (Mahabharata: Santi Parva 24.30).........

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understood an intention has to precede an action whether good or bad. According to your quotes best intention and action do not lead to "sin". Then how do you explain Bad things happening to Good people. In your story it did not matter what Garuda did, the bird did die according to its? Karma. Garuda did extend his compassion. The bird did die. So what is the purpose of compassion?

I did do a little research, in Gita Krishna says you have 'the right" to do your "duty”, but you have no ‘right’ in the result.
Can you please clarify "right" is the correct word literally translated from Sanskrit? For me "right" is one of the powerful words, my mind is already thinking about the other word "privilege”. It will be interesting to discuss this.

Thank you for your patience.

Love..........................VC

atanu
24 October 2007, 05:25 AM
Dear Atanu:
I did not understand well your post"Exploring Karma - Tales of a Universal Principle"
-----
--Then how do you explain Bad things happening to Good people. In your story it did not matter what Garuda did, the bird did die according to its? Karma. Garuda did extend his compassion. The bird did die. So what is the purpose of compassion?
------


Namaste VC,

There is no problem with patience. Genuine enquiries are always refreshing and there are better educated sadhakas in this forum than me who can help you with clarifications. I try to offer my understanding as best I can:

We see our existence in terms of birth and death of our present body. A man who is in a boat cannot see much ahead. But a man from the sky can see the whole river. Such sages who have seen, ask us to ask ourselves "Am I born?" If one truly contemplates, one can see that "I" is some kind of a thing which acquired flesh from father (sperm) and mother (a body). But what caused the sperm?

Sages say that beneath the physical body is a causal body -- karana sarira or linga sarira. This karana sarira is the result (and seat) of beginningless karma -- born of various desires and actions. As human bodies, we are not capable of knowing the past and the future. But it is said that sages know. There is one's karma and there is one daivam (God), who distributes the fruits compatible to the karma. The reason for what seems to be an inexplicable happening is buried in the subtle causal body -- also called Chitta or Nescience, which has existed prior to your present physical body and will continue to exist in future in other bodies till God takes it in again. This we are not able to see, being aware of the ego - conscious mind only.




I did do a little research, in Gita Krishna says you have 'the right" to do your "duty”, but you have no ‘right’ in the result.
Can you please clarify "right" is the correct word literally translated from Sanskrit? For me "right" is one of the powerful words, my mind is already thinking about the other word "privilege”. It will be interesting to discuss this.

Thank you for your patience.

Love..........................VC

This question is also excellent.

Niyati-Daivam-Laxmi gaurantees that each gets what is appropriate. By fretting we may further vitiate the karma. And the answer should be evident from what is written above. The 'right' varies as per the propensities of the individual. Sages however, say that the 'best right' thing to do is to submit to God alone --- keeping aside one's ego intellect. And that is said to be the only true RIGHT (Privilege) that one has.
------------

But there is another rung in the ladder. Krishna also teaches "Arjuna, know that you are not the doer." This is another subject, which we may discuss later. Sufficient to know that all karma drops for the one who can see inaction in action and action in inaction. This is Jnana.

Regards and Love

Om

yajvan
24 October 2007, 01:04 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Dear Atanu:
I did do a little research, in Gita Krishna says you have 'the right" to do your "duty", but you have no ‘right’ in the result.
Can you please clarify "right" is the correct word literally translated from Sanskrit? For me "right" is one of the powerful words, my mind is already thinking about the other word "privilege". It will be interesting to discuss this.

Namaste VC and atanu,
if it's ok, I thought to join this conversation? as this part of 'right' and action and all that is of key interest to ones spiritual pursuits and for ones well being on this earth.

This topic was discussed in March of this year... some great information came out of it. VC, if you have 10 min to review , I think you will find it of use. Here is the HDF post http:://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1110 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1110)
The HDF post has subsequent replies addressing your questions (atanu's responses are also there).

This word right you mention is अधिकार adhikāra... this is considered as 'office, charge, privilege, principle, etc'. I am happy to be corrected on this if others wish to go deeper or wider on this word.

My teacher has suggested this meaning (Bhagavad Gita 2.47), You have control over action alone, never over its fruits. Krsna also says, unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17). These two mantras are intimately connected to unravelling your question.

I see others interpret 2.47 and use the word 'right' I also see' rightful title' 'freedom' and a few other views. The argument is not the etymological view of this word but its implications of control+right+choice+rightful title, etc...

The key for me in unravelling this is this is apurva, or unseen potency which bring about events from past actions, either individually or collective actions of a family group or society. This ties together both sutras of 2.47 + 4.17 of the Gita nicely.


Bottom line - you can choose an action ( you have the right) to select an action today, yet due to all the past actions one has chosen, it is co-mingled in the result ( the fruit) it will bring to the doer, the owner of that action.

you will see many more views on this on the post mentioned.


pranams,

vcindiana
24 October 2007, 04:07 PM
Thank you Atanu:
I have begun to get a deep interest in the story Exploring Karma- Tales of a Universal Principle, you posted earlier. I consider this is not a simple story. I need to analyze this story piece by piece. I know you are trying to explain it best, I am sincerely not trying to put down but somehow I find it is more of intellectual material or an abstract type. I welcome others also read, perhaps reread this story and relate how this story impacts them. I think this is one of the amazing stories I have heard. Thank YOU so much for posting this. I would like to know the source of this; surprisingly the net was not much help to me. The last few lines in the story may have been little tweaked. I will be very much obliged if you can find the actual source of it

I do not know whether you directly answered my question “what is the purpose of compassion in this story knowing this little bird met the destiny?

Thank you Yajavan: I did read your thread and I am still trying to understand you.

Question to both you and Yajvan: Do you consider words right and privilege same? I do not know Sanskrit. Does Sanskrit make clear distinction between these words? I find these words carry totally different and powerful meaningsThank you again for being patient with me

Love you people……………………………VC

yajvan
24 October 2007, 05:07 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Thank you Atanu:

Thank you Yajavan: I did read your thread and I am still trying to understand you.


Question to both you and Yajvan: Do you consider words right and privilege same? I do not know Sanskrit. Does Sanskrit make clear distinction between these words? I find these words carry totally different and powerful meaningsThank you again for being patient with me

Love you people……………………………VC

Namaste VC,
I am happy you are taking the time to read some of the posts...there is a wealth of knowledge there. Some of it needs to be 'sipped' slowly. And we are all students of life (sisya's) and all learning. Let the world know I am just one more sisya learning, unfolding the wisdom offered from the risi's, swami-ji's and the Brahmanvits. As my friend says, I am just one more Bozo on the bus. The reason why this is valuable for many to discuss and explain is one learns twice. Being asked to explain is the phala (fruit) of bhaga (fortune).

Regarding right and privilege - I see your point, but I yield to what my teacher has offered , that was control.
Lets poke around here a bit and see if this helps. If we look to a definition of 'right' we get the following...

accordance with what is good, proper, or just: right conduct
correct in judgment, opinion, or actionYet the 'right' we are looking for is more like this:

a just claim
a choice that is an option
a privilege, usually preemptive, that accrues to the doer
A freedom to execute an actionSo when we look to right and privilege, they are complementary. That is the 'liberty' to act. I can understand why my teacher used the word 'control'; as you control the right and the privilege to act.

Yet the wisdom in the mantra of BG 2.47 is you have this ability, if you wish to call it a right, a privilege or the ability to control. It is all in the family of choice. Your choices are yours, the outcomes are influnced by many things:

Your skill and abilities
Your past actions and what you are due
The environment which includes othersThis is why one must evaluate this stanza with Krsna's additional insight unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17).

Even if you are the best of the best, all things going for you, everything is in your favor ( the stars all line up), there can be that one thing from a past action [ that we do not know which action and perhaps even which life] influences the outcome.

I have seen this happen many times. Can I trace it back to the cause? Nope. Yet I can tell you with a high degree of confidence that what happened was NOT the 100% direct outcome of the action that started the process to occur.

So , now we get into cause and effect and the material cause and the formal cause for an effect to occur and this is best left for another time, as it is a bit more esoteric in nature and will not impact the outcome of this conversation.


I hope this helped a bit... I am happy to offer my views on this; Others also have their POV's.

Maybe atanu will share the crow and the coconut story from the Yoga Vasistha for more insights.

pranams,

vcindiana
24 October 2007, 08:37 PM
Thank you Yajvan for your prompt response. You really have taken time and efforts to explain to me.

Hope you do not mind my way of understanding Right vs Privilege. I feel this is basic before I can explain how I see what Krishna said in Geeta.

Behind the word RIGHT, there is the word Freedom. No freedom means no rights. Full freedom means full rights. We can do whatever we want; in full freedom we can do good things or even bad things. In communist countries people have no freedom meaning no rights. Governments are the authorities; they control minds of the people. People are likely to be robots. We love our freedom. There is no fear. In freedom creative things do happen, it motivates people, they come to terms with pain and pleasures of life, and they go and extend their arms to help fellow human beings. They understand LOVE.
Freedom is a beautiful thing but it also makes people demand their "Rights" as though it is granted. It can make them selfish, cold and powerful.
But people who do really understand what the freedom is all about, appreciate its beauty and do not call it as their right but call it is their privilege. Privilege means it is a special right, not just granted. They are honored to receive and feel the joy that comes with it. There is a deep sense of appreciation and gratitude in the word Privilege. As we know gratitude usually does not come naturally to most persons.
I have all the RIGHTS in this country but I am privileged to enjoy those rights and live in this great country which puts freedom of people as the priority
It is my privilege to find people like you and share our FREE thoughts

Love ...................................VC

atanu
25 October 2007, 03:03 AM
Thank you Atanu:
I have begun to get a deep interest in the story Exploring Karma- Tales of a Universal Principle, you posted earlier. I consider this is not a simple story. I need to analyze this story piece by piece. I know you are trying to explain it best, I am sincerely not trying to put down but somehow I find it is more of intellectual material or an abstract type. I welcome others also read, perhaps reread this story and relate how this story impacts them. I think this is one of the amazing stories I have heard. Thank YOU so much for posting this. I would like to know the source of this; surprisingly the net was not much help to me. The last few lines in the story may have been little tweaked. I will be very much obliged if you can find the actual source of it

I do not know whether you directly answered my question “what is the purpose of compassion in this story knowing this little bird met the destiny?

Thank you Yajavan: I did read your thread and I am still trying to understand you.

Question to both you and Yajvan: Do you consider words right and privilege same? I do not know Sanskrit. Does Sanskrit make clear distinction between these words? I find these words carry totally different and powerful meaningsThank you again for being patient with me

Love you people……………………………VC


Namaste VC,

Like you I also do not like much intellectualism, though it may not be apparent at all. I will just point out that what is correct (right) thing to do may also be your right (privilege).

-------------------

There is another small story told by sage Ramakrishna.

A sadhu was meditatiing on the seashore when he saw a ship in very turbulent water. With compassion, he used his powers to make the sea tranquil in a moment and this caused the ship to overturn and sink.

The point, I was trying to make all through is that for any task we do, the idea "I am doing a benevolent work for the good of others" is a mistake. Compassion with with false sense of ego may not be compassion at all. Krishna teaches that actions should be acts of worship.

The story which you liked very much was taken from a Yoga site. That is all I remember. But nothing was tweaked in the material.


Om

atanu
25 October 2007, 07:55 AM
Dear Atanu:
---- Garuda did extend his compassion. The bird did die. So what is the purpose of compassion?

Love..........................VC

Namaste VC,

I know that I have not answered the query "what is the purpose of compassion?" directly since answer to this deep question has to be multi layered -- true at some level for someone but false for someone else.

In general, as we have agreed that love/compassion are the highest qualities flowing directly from God (who is compassion), an act of compassion carried out without any personal reward as goal may be deemed good -- whatever be the outcome. Same will not be the judgement, if the so-called compassionate act was intended to generate some personal goal.

There is another finer layer. Why will one act compassionate? Does any one feel bad after a compassionate act? I think, most feel good after doing good. So, this doing good is also for the happiness of the self and not for another. Understanding this leads one to a correct perspective and such a person will be guilt free himself and will not blame anyone for one's own failures and misfortunes.

There is another still finer layer. As Yajvan has mentioned about the story of the crow and the coconut. This is bit difficult. It is called kaktaliya in our language. It means co-incidence. Say a crow alights on a branch of a coconut tree and a coconut falls. The reasoning mind ascribes the fall to the crow, whereas it is actually two things happening together. An easier example will be to consider flower blooming in spring and the mind judging that it is the spring which has caused the bloom. Did the crow cause the coconut to fall and kill a person on whose head the coconut fell? Or was the spring responsible for the bloom and any adverse or favourable result?

The last layer is most difficult to appreciate and assimilate. Essentially it indicates that forces of nature act as per their own nature -- the spirit does not do anything. Spirit is that in whose presence (or in midst of whom) natural acts happen. Man is essentially spirit (and not the body-mind-personality) and when this is realized truly, reactions do not impinge on mind, which also is a force of nature with its own acts. Karma is nothing but memories stored deep in the consciousness of acts done and reasoned outcomes with respect to the acts. There is a saying that one fears of a tiger and a tiger appears.

One who is always a detached observer of mind, has brushed off karma, since he does not analyse acts as his own and worry. He is free. I know that the last layer may go against your value system of nobility and morality, but a bit of contemplation will reaveal that it may be most noble to realise the truth and keep away the ego which thinks that it is one and all others are different.

You may like to read "Meditations" by Aurelius posted sometime back in the Canteen category. You will see how this last layer is also spoken of by Aurelius.

I hope its not too much. And I hope that it will allow better mutual appreciation.

Om

yajvan
25 October 2007, 11:56 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Thank you Yajvan for your prompt response. You really have taken time and efforts to explain to me.

Hope you do not mind my way of understanding Right vs Privilege. I feel this is basic before I can explain how I see what Krishna said in Geeta.

Behind the word RIGHT, there is the word Freedom. No freedom means no rights. Full freedom means full rights. We can do whatever we want; in full freedom we can do good things or even bad things. In communist countries people have no freedom meaning no rights. Governments are the authorities; they control minds of the people. People are likely to be robots. We love our freedom. There is no fear. In freedom creative things do happen, it motivates people, they come to terms with pain and pleasures of life, and they go and extend their arms to help fellow human beings. They understand LOVE.
Freedom is a beautiful thing but it also makes people demand their "Rights" as though it is granted. It can make them selfish, cold and powerful.
But people who do really understand what the freedom is all about, appreciate its beauty and do not call it as their right but call it is their privilege. Privilege means it is a special right, not just granted. They are honored to receive and feel the joy that comes with it. There is a deep sense of appreciation and gratitude in the word Privilege. As we know gratitude usually does not come naturally to most persons.
I have all the RIGHTS in this country but I am privileged to enjoy those rights and live in this great country which puts freedom of people as the priority
It is my privilege to find people like you and share our FREE thoughts
Love ...................................VC

Namaste VC,
you bring some important points to the front line of thinking.
Yes this freedom is wonderful, as is rights. Yet with rights and freedom comes responsibility. When one forgets this, or does not know what ones responsibilities are, then this freedom causes mischief from the stand point of 'I demand this, or I know my rights' - as if special.

With regard to Krsna, when he says you have 'rights' or 'freedom' or 'control' or even liberty of actions, He also knows that each individual is divine. And with this Divinity comes this liberty to choose. Yet the 'responsibility' that is inferred is from ones past actions that will come to bear on this action you are choosing today! If you chose wisely in the past and the course of actions were within dharma, then your actions today will benefit from those choices. It they were not, then you bear the responsibility of those past actions and reap the benefits accordingly.

This is the wisdom as I see it... and has keep my eyes open on my choices I make.

pranams,

vcindiana
25 October 2007, 10:18 PM
Namaste VC,
Like you I also do not like much intellectualism, though it may not be apparent at all. I will just point out that what is correct (right) thing to do may also be your right (privilege).

There is another small story told by sage Ramakrishna.

A sadhu was meditatiing on the seashore when he saw a ship in very turbulent water. With compassion, he used his powers to make the sea tranquil in a moment and this caused the ship to overturn and sink.
The point, I was trying to make all through is that for any task we do, the idea "I am doing a benevolent work for the good of others" is a mistake. Compassion with with false sense of ego may not be compassion at all. Krishna teaches that actions should be acts of worship.Om

Thank you Atanu for your yet another beautiful story which I look at it as another Love story.

I do understand your point; you stress the problem of ego. I think ego is something that comes to minds of most of us. Perhaps we can discuss this later.
Let me please analyze this story: Sadhu is trying to do some good thing out of love but bad thing happens. Do you think love is always happy and fuzzy? I see Love also hurts people. Have you ever had an experience of having a teenager at home, one day she comes to you and yells at you "I hate You mom (or Dad)? Hope you were dead!! Why do we cry when some one we loved dearly gets into trouble or even die? Even some dogs stop eating when their masters die. This is real life, not some philosophy. I cannot remain stoic, my heart is dynamic, pulsates according to the rhythm of life. I breathe this air.


Let me come back to the story. It is SADHU here, not some wealthy man who likes to do charity and at the same time would like to inscribe his name in gold leaves in the Temples or promoted in a newspaper. Sadu is supposedly a learned person who has understood what is SELF. He is EGO less. He knows what Karma is. He already knows the destiny. But the power of love overwhelmed all his intellectual thoughts. The thought of people dying in the ship wreck has hit his heart. Water is turbulent, powerful waves hitting the ship hard, there are people, families children or even some pets in that ship, screaming for help. He cannot just sit and keep meditating, he needs to act as fast as he can. In that rush of pure love of adrenaline he does not think well, that instant stopping the waves would actually capsize the ship. Yes, I do believe that Love is irrational and has no logic. People did die, but Love prevailed.

I enjoyed this story, Thank you again

Love................................VC

atanu
26 October 2007, 03:16 AM
Thank you Atanu for your yet another beautiful story which I look at it as another Love story.

I do understand your point; you stress the problem of ego. I think ego is something that comes to minds of most of us. Perhaps we can discuss this later.
Let me please analyze this story: Sadhu is trying to do some good thing out of love but bad thing happens. Do you think love is always happy and fuzzy? I see Love also hurts people. Have you ever had an experience of having a teenager at home, one day she comes to you and yells at you "I hate You mom (or Dad)? Hope you were dead!! Why do we cry when some one we loved dearly gets into trouble or even die? Even some dogs stop eating when their masters die. This is real life, not some philosophy. I cannot remain stoic, my heart is dynamic, pulsates according to the rhythm of life. I breathe this air.


Let me come back to the story. It is SADHU here, not some wealthy man who likes to do charity and at the same time would like to inscribe his name in gold leaves in the Temples or promoted in a newspaper. Sadu is supposedly a learned person who has understood what is SELF. He is EGO less. He knows what Karma is. He already knows the destiny. But the power of love overwhelmed all his intellectual thoughts. The thought of people dying in the ship wreck has hit his heart. Water is turbulent, powerful waves hitting the ship hard, there are people, families children or even some pets in that ship, screaming for help. He cannot just sit and keep meditating, he needs to act as fast as he can. In that rush of pure love of adrenaline he does not think well, that instant stopping the waves would actually capsize the ship. Yes, I do believe that Love is irrational and has no logic. People did die, but Love prevailed.

I enjoyed this story, Thank you again

Love................................VC

Namaste VC,

What you say is correct. Thank you for liking the stories and your nice assessment. True, Love prevails. True Love prevails.

In India a very large section of people worship God's manifestation in the form of Mother, embodiment of love, compassion and also a destroyer of negative aspects of egoism -- that also is love.

Om

saidevo
26 October 2007, 05:30 AM
Namaste participants.



A sadhu was meditatiing on the seashore when he saw a ship in very turbulent water. With compassion, he used his powers to make the sea tranquil in a moment and this caused the ship to overturn and sink.


Beautiful tales of love and compassion, both classical and modern, posted in this thread made enlightening reading as to the nature of true love which is a characteristic of God.

In the Garuda and the bird story, I think, Garuda was to be an instrument of destiny though he was not aware of it. His good thoughts of love and compassion initiated a swift action that became the final karmic experience in the bird's life. From another angle, Garuda did know pretty well that the bird was to meet with its final moments since Yama had a look at it. Still he tried to change destiny but instead became an instrument of it!

In the above story of a sadhu, he was not supposed to interfere with nature using his powers, unless he has God's AdeshaH or command. He tried to interfere with destiny and learnt his lesson.

Here is another oft-heard story about a common man trying to interfere with destiny out of love with drastic results:



A man found a cocoon of a butterfly. One day a small opening appeared. He sat and watched the butterfly for several hours as it struggled to force its body through that little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared as if it had gotten as far as it could, and it could go no further.

So the man decided to help the butterfly. He took a pair of scissors and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon.

The butterfly then emerged easily. But it had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings.

The man continued to watch the butterfly because he expected that, at any moment, the wings would enlarge and expand to be able to support the body, which would contract in time.

Neither happened! In fact, the butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly.

(http://www.vnforum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8621)


So, what do these stories of love initiatives teach us? I think that true love is often veiled by avidyA or nescience that most people right from the common person through enlightened men up to a deva suffer from and cannot do anything against.

The Tamil cine poet KannadAsan wrote this wonderful quatrain that contains the Hindu philosophy of life in a nutshell:

'vIdu varai uravu
vIdi varai manaivi
kAdu varai piLLai
kadaisi varai yaro?'

'Kinship is up to the home,
Wife is up to the street
Son is up to the cremation ground
Whoever is up to the last?'

atanu
26 October 2007, 08:01 AM
Namaste participants.

--
In the above story of a sadhu, he was not supposed to interfere with nature using his powers, unless he has God's AdeshaH or command. He tried to interfere with destiny and learnt his lesson.



Namaste Saidevo ji,

Nicely put. This is what I had tried to indicate without being direct. That is why I said :TRUE LOVE PREVAILS. Often what goes in the name of compassion and love, may be intervention and coercion, in intent.


Om

vcindiana
26 October 2007, 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by saidevo http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=17539#post17539)
Namaste participants.

In the above story of a sadhu, he was not supposed to interfere with nature using his powers, unless he has God's AdeshaH or command. He tried to interfere with destiny and learnt his lesson.


Namaste Saidevo ji,

Nicely put. This is what I had tried to indicate without being direct. That is why I said :TRUE LOVE PREVAILS. Often what goes in the name of compassion and love, may be intervention and coercion, in intent.
Om
................................................................................................
Dear Saidevo and Atanu: Pardon me. With due respect to both of you I do not agree with your statements.

Had this Sadhu learnt his lesson in this story, then this whole story becomes meaningless. This story is about the power of Love which supersedes everything in this world. You do recognize that LOVE ALWAYS PREVAILS.

Dear Saidevo: In this beautiful little story God's AdeshaH or command is to LOVE, not worry about the result. Sadhu does not need to learn anything here; we need to learn from this story.

Dear Atanu: Love has to be manifested through action alone at the cost of my time, my space, my money, my convenience, my effort etc. In this story Love is the one that coerced this Sadu to act; there is no element of Ego in this story.

All I request you is to please search your hearts in this story.

I am sorry, if I have offended you.


Love………………………………………….VC

saidevo
26 October 2007, 11:24 AM
Namaste vcindiana.

I am not at all offended. I don't underestimate the power of love and we are not at variance in our statements. Atanu and I only say that true love prevails and that at any cost. You talk about manifestation of such love through a person or being which happens at any cost.

There is no question of Ego either with the Sadhu in trying to prevent a diaster or with Garuda in trying to save the bird. Garuda tried to save the bird, not outwit Lord Shani. The Sadhu tried to save people. Both of them acted out of love and compassion; their efforts did not succeed, but being Egoless they would have ultimately understood that true love prevails and the only true love is that of God, which however, manifests and acts through a set of circumstances involving people, but the people are just actors and the circumstances just drama of God!

Ultimately, it is His will that will be done, but we can be certain that in whatever way it is done, it will be an act of divine love which is the highest form of love.

Since as humans we are divine in our essence, we try to feel God and act God in expressing our own forms of love and like children rejoice in our acts, seeking its fruits.

atanu
26 October 2007, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by saidevo http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=17539#post17539)
Namaste participants.

In the above story of a sadhu, he was not supposed to interfere with nature using his powers, unless he has God's AdeshaH or command. He tried to interfere with destiny and learnt his lesson.
................................................................................................
Dear Saidevo and Atanu: Pardon me. With due respect to both of you I do not agree with your statements.

Had this Sadhu learnt his lesson in this story, then this whole story becomes meaningless. This story is about the power of Love which supersedes everything in this world. You do recognize that LOVE ALWAYS PREVAILS.

Dear Saidevo: In this beautiful little story God's AdeshaH or command is to LOVE, not worry about the result. Sadhu does not need to learn anything here; we need to learn from this story.

Dear Atanu: Love has to be manifested through action alone at the cost of my time, my space, my money, my convenience, my effort etc. In this story Love is the one that coerced this Sadu to act; there is no element of Ego in this story.

All I request you is to please search your hearts in this story.

I am sorry, if I have offended you.

Love………………………………………….VC


Namaste VC,

As saidevoji has mentioned there is no offence I can see. And saidevoji has written what I also would have written.

Additionally, I request you to consider the following with love (love is not adamant).

I strongly agree to what you say. No power can oppose Love.

But in this case, consider yourself as the sadhu and imagine that your action has killed a thousand people. Now you have to bear the brunt of all consequences -- external (physical-mental abuses and many other) and of your own conscience. Under such circumstance if you maintain love in your mind over many possible mental aberrations, then you are there.

The picture is many layered.

Om

vcindiana
26 October 2007, 07:54 PM
Thank you Yajvan, Atanu and Saidevo for your views.

It is indeed my privilege to discuss such topics with you people. You people do challenge my thoughts and I appreciate that.

The topic of LOVE is very dear to me. I guess from the discussions I had with you, the word Love means different things to us. Truth probably reveals in different ways.

My personal explanation of Love or God is through experiences alone. I do see God in action every day. It is very difficult for me to be grounded in Karma philosophy in spite of my Hindu background and all your intellectual explanations.
Today a dear friend of ours called us sobbing and told us their young un married daughter has become pregnant! This is a devout religious family.
As their close friend how I can console this disappointed and devastated people? This is their only daughter who was deeply cared and loved. Where is God? Can I just tell them it is their KARMA and get it over?
I wonder how you people would react when faced such situations. If I show my love do you call that is my Ego?

Love...................................VC

Eastern Mind
26 October 2007, 10:25 PM
Thank you Yajvan, Atanu and Saidevo for your views.


My personal explanation of Love or God is through experiences alone. I do see God in action every day. It is very difficult for me to be grounded in Karma philosophy in spite of my Hindu background and all your intellectual explanations.
Today a dear friend of ours called us sobbing and told us their young un married daughter has become pregnant! This is a devout religious family.
As their close friend how I can console this disappointed and devastated people? This is their only daughter who was deeply cared and loved. Where is God? Can I just tell them it is their KARMA and get it over?
I wonder how you people would react when faced such situations. If I show my love do you call that is my Ego?

Love...................................VC

My personal explanations come from experience alone as well. I'm sorry to hear of your friends' karma. But I am certainly troubled by the statement "was deeply cared and loved'. Does this imply that from the circumstances she is no longer deeply cared and loved? In my experiences, informing someone that its just their karma is not the right thing to do. It's their job to figure that out, and ,if as you say, they are a devout religious family is true, then they will. Better to just show the daughter and her parents your unconditional love in some way. Just my thoughts. Aum Namasivaya

atanu
27 October 2007, 02:41 AM
---Can I just tell them it is their KARMA and get it over?
I wonder how you people would react when faced such situations. ----

Love...................................VC

Namaste VC,

When you say that God is Love, it should dawn on its own. Is God absent anywhere and at anytime? Why react and act God?


It would have challenged your love had you been the father or had you been the girl. I feel that all your examples are but about intellectualism and emotionalism based on 2nd hand experiences.

Om

vcindiana
27 October 2007, 10:33 AM
Namaste VC,

When you say that God is Love, it should dawn on its own. Is God absent anywhere and at anytime? Why react and act God?


It would have challenged your love had you been the father or had you been the girl. I feel that all your examples are but about intellectualism and emotionalism based on 2nd hand experiences.

Om


Dear Atanu: Hope you do not mind keep questioning you. Please let me know if I ever make you uncomfortable. Then I shall end this my http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif silly discussion.

If God (Love) cannot be absent anywhere and at any time, as you say... then He was there in that Sadhu and Garuda. Right? How do you explain their Ego? Do'nt you think God pushed them to do compassionate thing? Why there is a separation of Ego and so called pure Love?

As you already know, I find Love, indeed an awesome and irrational experience, Love does hurt. I have gone through some of my own very hurtful downside experiences. Even though at this moment I may feel great, I do not know what tomorrow brings. Through all these difficult times, one thing I have experienced over the years is that loving and caring people coming to me and often just listened to me. They have shared with me almost similar or at times worse than my problems. It has given my enough strength and courage to go on. It is my belief that people do care, God works through them and I have seldom seen the 'true EGO' problem you mention.
Out of curiosity I wonder are there any people in nthis world without Ego? Just a liittle bit??
Please turn me off any time you feel like.

Love...............................VC

vcindiana
27 October 2007, 10:54 AM
Namaste vcindiana.

There is no question of Ego either with the Sadhu in trying to prevent a diaster or with Garuda in trying to save the bird. Garuda tried to save the bird, not outwit Lord Shani. The Sadhu tried to save people. Both of them acted out of love and compassion; their efforts did not succeed, but being Egoless they would have ultimately understood that true love prevails and the only true love is that of God, which however, manifests and acts through a set of circumstances involving people, but the people are just actors and the circumstances just drama of God!




Dear Saidevo;

I am sorry to keep asking questions. Please turn me off any time.

You say true love manifests and acts through a set of circumstances involving people. Then how can you not see God in these two characters with their “Egoistic” minds acting out in their love and compassion? You think this was not (? true) love? How does God manifest true love? Don’t you believe these characters were in fact “actors “in the drama of God?
How can you explain Egos (selfish with the minds of our own/ free will) in us if we are just actors or the puppets or robots?
I do agree with you that one needs to be Egoless to see the true love. In these stories, the characters “Sadhu” and “Garuda” (servant of God head) create in our image that these are the people who know the nature of God well. At least in my mind, to think these people have “Egos” is the last thing. If the purpose of these stories were to be on EGOS, I would have seen different set of characters, perhaps some ones with materialism.

Nevertheless we can look at these characters in our own ways. But to judge…… these people whose “will or intention” was nothing but Ego ……, makes us no different. I do admit as a human being, nature of judging others often comes to my mind.

Love................................VC

atanu
27 October 2007, 12:01 PM
Dear Atanu: Hope you do not mind keep questioning you. Please let me know if I ever make you uncomfortable. Then I shall end this my silly discussion.


If God (Love) cannot be absent anywhere and at any time, as you say... then He was there in that Sadhu and Garuda. Right? How do you explain their Ego? Do'nt you think God pushed them to do compassionate thing? Why there is a separation of Ego and so called pure Love?


Dear VC,

Questions are welcome but I fail to understand why you are continuing a silly discussion at all, if you judge it silly?

Love is all pervading and so is ignorance, which hides the love by apparently fragmenting the Spirit into numerous bodies with individual wills (as if).

No one has said that Sadhu or Garuda acted out of hatred. They did what most people, if equipped with the kind of powers these two possessed, would do. However, as I have said and which you have ignored, the true test of love would be now – that the sadhu would have to endure the results of causing death to thousands.

You were correct to say that we see love differently. Most true sanatana dharma followers would see love as all pervading God – not absent from anywhere and anytime. However, most would not see an instinctive act of show of power, wherein the result is death of thousands (as in the case of ill-informed sadhu), as love. The sadhu is incomplete sadhu – he is not omniscient (even has no foresight), he has no faith in God, and he uses his power recklessly.

It is not love. However, if the sadhu endures the resulting tribulations with tranquility, then the story would be different.

-----------------------------

Buddha could bring to life the dead ones. But He never did. Rather, He showered Jnana so that people endured forces of nature with love. That is true love.

Love is when you have a piece of bread and you share it. Love is distorted when a millionaire doles out two pence with arrogance.


Love is when you love God when He makes a utter fool of you. Love is when you love God when He makes you supportless. Love is when you love God when He takes you through tribulations.

Love is known in the aftermath of instinctive actions and not in the action itself.

Om

atanu
27 October 2007, 01:19 PM
Namaste All,

This thread has become somewhat like business case study.

I came across a bit of history which may be analysed here. Stalin is a hated figure, in general. This story is about him.

During 2nd World War, Stalin’s son, who was an ordinary soldier, was captured by the Germans. Hitler bargained for release of a captured General against Stalin’s son. Stalin refused this as according to him a soldier could not be bargained against a General. Following this Stalin’s son was executed.

I have often thought about this and failed to come to an understanding of the act of Stalin. Was it good or bad? Whatever might be the judgment, I cannot deny the steely will (or ruthlessness) of this person.


Om

vcindiana
27 October 2007, 08:04 PM
Namaste All,

This thread has become somewhat like business case study.

Om

Dear Atanu: I close this thread. Thank you so much, I did learn a lot. You are one knowledgeable and wise man.

God bless you and your family.

By the way do you have any hobby ? I love to fish and sail. Love to take you on if you are interested.

Take care

Love......................VC http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

saidevo
27 October 2007, 09:18 PM
Dear vcindiana.

You have raised a number of interesting/intriguing questions that need to be discussed. Since I shall be out of station for a couple of days, I shall ponder over your questions when I come back and try to give you my impressions and thoughts on them.

atanu
27 October 2007, 09:52 PM
--
God bless you and your family.

By the way do you have any hobby ? I love to fish and sail. Love to take you on if you are interested.

Take care

Love......................VC http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Namaste VC,

May I receive love part of your blessings alone and not the caustic part (if any).

It's not clear why you want to share hobby with me. Such sudden irrelevance -----? ------ But assuming good intent, we will see whether Niyati has such plans or not?


Om

vcindiana
28 October 2007, 02:20 AM
Namaste VC,

May I receive love part of your blessings alone and not the caustic part (if any).

It's not clear why you want to share hobby with me. Such sudden irrelevance -----? ------ But assuming good intent, we will see whether Niyati has such plans or not?


Om


Dear Atanu: I was a little surprised that I had some caustic part that hurt you. I am sorry.
My way of saying "God bless " is that I am sensitive to others and I do care. You be the judge.
Hobbies? I guess God loves too !! That is a different topic.

Thanks again

Love............................................VC

atanu
28 October 2007, 06:36 AM
Dear Atanu: I was a little surprised that I had some caustic part that hurt you. I am sorry.
My way of saying "God bless " is that I am sensitive to others and I do care. You be the judge.
Hobbies? I guess God loves too !! That is a different topic.

Thanks again

Love............................................VC

Namaste Dear VC,

You are sensitive and see emotion where there is none.

From my side I sign off with the following.

Love was born first
the gods cannot reach it,
or the spirits, or men....
Far as heaven and earth extend,
far as the waters go,
high as the fire burns,
you are greater, love!
The wind cannot reach you,
nor the fire, nor the sun, nor the moon:
you are greater than them all, love!"

Atharva Veda 9.2.19



Om

vcindiana
05 November 2007, 07:41 PM
Dear readers: A few weeks ago Dear Atanu posted the following story trying to explain the law of Karma. This is indeed a beautiful story. I looked at this in an entirely different way. As some of you are aware through my posts, the topic of Love is very dear to me. I think everything in this world is explainable by Love only. I wanted to get the meaning of Love out of this story much more than the cold abstract philosophy of Karma. It is a little lengthy one; thank you for your patience, it took me a while to put my thoughts in. I request you to perhaps re read this and give me your honest unbiased critics and comments. I sincerely apologize if you find this offensive.
“Exploring Karma - Tales of a Universal Principle”

High in the reaches of Mount Kailasha is the abode of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. One evening Vishnu, the god responsible for preserving the cosmic order, came to see Shiva. He left behind at the entrance Garuda, the half-man, half-eagle composite, who served as his vehicle.Garuda sat alone, marveling at the natural splendor of the place. Suddenly his eyes fell on a beautiful creature, a little bird seated on the arch crowning the entrance to Shiva's place. Garuda wondered aloud: "How marvelous is this creation! One who has created these lofty mountains has also made this tiny bird - and both seem equally wonderful." Just then Yama, the god of death who rides a buffalo, came passing by with the intention of meeting Shiva. As he crossed the arch, his eyes went over to the bird and he raised his brows in a quizzical expression. Then he took his eyes off the bird and disappeared inside. Now, in the ancient thought of India, even a slight glance of Yama is said to be the harbinger of death. Garuda, who had observed Yama's action, told himself, "Yama looking intently at the bird can mean only one thing - the bird's time is up. Perhaps on his way back he will carry away the bird's soul with him." Garuda's heart was filled with pity for the helpless creature. That it was oblivious of its own impending doom further agonized Garuda and he resolved to save the bird from the clutches of death. He swooped it up in his mighty talons, rushed to a forest thousands of miles away and left the bird on a rock beside a brook. Then he returned to Kailasha and regained his position at the entrance gate.Soon after, Yama emerged from inside, and nodded to Garuda in recognition. Garuda greeted the god of death and said: "May I put a question to you? While going in, you saw a bird and for a moment you became pensive, why?" Yama answered him thus: "Well, when my eyes fell on the little bird, I saw that it was to die in a few minutes, swallowed by a python, far away from here in a forest near a brook. I wondered how this tiny creature would traverse the thousand of miles separating it from its destiny in such a short time. Then I forgot. Surely it must have happened somehow." Saying this, Yama smiled and went away. Did he know about Garuda' s specific role in the matter? Nobody can know for sure. Garuda sat perplexed, mulling over the surprising turn events had taken.
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This is the way I see it:
High in the reaches of Mount Kailasha is the abode of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction
The word “high” here is the place where a common man cannot touch; it is beyond any man’s reach. It is also the place that is beyond any man’s dream.
One evening Vishnu, the god responsible for preserving the cosmic order, came to see Shiva.
This is an exclusive club or an executive board or an elite club, people here makes decisions about who is in and who is out. The people here are very knowledgeable, full of Vidya and they are the Gnanis. They are cream of the intellectuals; they are the masters of the cosmos
They are meeting at the evening time, it is the perfect time. People high on the ladder like to enjoy a little drink like some cocktails and here of course, a glass of Amrita.
He left behind at the entrance Garuda, the half-man, half-eagle composite, who served as his vehicle.
Garuda is the faithful cab/taxi driver, He is not allowed into the club. He needs to wait at the gate till the master comes out of the club.
Garuda is half man and half Eagle.
Eagles' vision is among the sharpest of any animal. Some eagles, for instance, can see twice as far as people. Studies suggest that some eagles can spot an animal the size of a rabbit up to two miles away. In part, eagles have excellent vision because their eyes, which are very large in proportion to their heads, are densely packed with sensory cells. While humans typically have 200,000 light-sensitive cells per square millimeter of retina, eagles may have 1 million -- five times more.
Eagles are also very powerful; they are among the world's largest birds of prey. The largest, including the Harpy Eagle and the Philippine Eagle, can weigh more than 20 pounds and have wings that spread eight feet across. Using their massive, sharp talons, these giants can kill and carry off prey as large as deer and monkeys.
With all these qualities, eagles are still the beasts of the nature. This is a human story and it needs some human qualities. Garuda is uniquely designed by the creator, having the attributes of human and eagle.

Garuda sat alone, marveling at the natural splendor of the place. Suddenly his eyes fell on a beautiful creature, a little bird seated on the arch crowning the entrance to Shiva's place. Garuda wondered aloud: "How marvelous is this creation! One who has created these lofty mountains has also made this tiny bird - and both seem equally wonderful."
Garuda is a not an ordinary cab driver who is napping while waiting for the master in this story. He is engrossed with the sheer splendor of the Shiva’s place. He has those powerful eagle’s eyes. He is observing and enjoying the grand beauty of Shiva’s place and saying to himself WOW!! He has the mastery of sense of wonder. His eyes have caught the beautiful little bird. He is full of praise to the creator. He has fallen in love with the sheer beauty of the creation
Most of us have grownup, we no longer catch our breath at the sight of a rain bow or the scent of a rose as we once did. We have grown bigger and everything else is smaller, less impressive. We have internet, satellite TV, jet planes, Disney world etc., we can build mega churches with huge cathedral ceilings, we can build exotic temples loaded with gold, and we can create almost anything we want. Soon we get preoccupied with ourselves. We are becoming immune to the glory of creation. We buy prepackaged food in the supermarket; we never think or blink about the bounty of God’s creation. We grow complacent and lead practical life. We miss the experience of Awe, reverence and wonders of the natural beauty of our creator.
Just then Yama, the god of death who rides a buffalo, came passing by with the intention of meeting Shiva. As he crossed the arch, his eyes went over to the bird and he raised his brows in a quizzical expression. Then he took his eyes off the bird and disappeared inside
Yama is very duty bound and he is much focused. His mission was to take the soul away from this doomed bird. He was very much there for that very purpose, But soon after he saw the bird he was puzzled, he had a quizzical expression why? Something was different here, something strange happened, something larger than Life and death was going to happen that he needs to report this extraordinary thing to Shiva. He has no time like Garuda to admire this incredible place; he had to rush inside Shiva’s place
Now, in the ancient thought of India, even a slight glance of Yama is said to be the harbinger of death. Garuda, who had observed Yama's action, told himself, "Yama looking intently at the bird can mean only one thing - the bird's time is up. Perhaps on his way back he will carry away the bird's soul with him

Garuda's heart was filled with pity for the helpless creature.
It was Garuda’s heart, not his intellect that was moved by the impending death of the little bird. The little bird in this story represents something of no importance or no significant in our day to day lives. This is a little bird, not some big powerful impressive creature, it is helpless, it has no protection around, and it is lost. It is dying!
Does it matter we care for this measly creature? We have no time for the poor or the sick lined up in front of a temple or church. These are just some nuisances, hindering our way to God. We are more interested in which God we need to be “really” worshipping. Is it Vishnu or Shiva or Jesus?, We often fight which God is supposed to be superior. We are fearful of sickness and death. We do not feel comfortable in the presence of sick or frail or elderly people or in those with terminal illness, these things do remind of our own vulnerability to decline. We try to stay out of these situations.
Looking at this helpless bird, Garuda had a meltdown.
That it was oblivious of its own impending doom further agonized Garuda and he resolved to save the bird from the clutches of death. He swooped it up in his mighty talons, rushed to a forest thousands of miles away and left the bird on a rock beside a brook. Then he returned to Kailasha and regained his position at the entrance gate

Love does hurt people, Garuda is agonizing. The power of Love is causing a storm in his heart, he is not thinking whether he needs permission from his master, nor does he care whether his master would find out about his action and fire him from the job... He has taken an incredible risk, love has to be expressed in action alone, and it is sacrificial, no nap time here. He is divinely gifted with the powerful wings; Love has commanded him to put his skill or talent in this situation.
Most of us do enjoy staying in our comfort zones. Nothing like home, we have the security and peaceful living but we will never taste Love unless we take risk and venture out of our zones. Love is indeed a risky action. Love is a RISKY business. Garuda stung by the bite of Love, swoops the little bird up in his mighty talons. He travels thousands of miles. Love has no distance; Garuda literally goes the extra mile out of his crazy and irrational love for this little measly dying bird.
Soon after, Yama emerged from inside and nodded to Garuda in recognition. Garuda greeted the god of death and said: "May I put a question to you? While going in, you saw a bird and for a moment you became pensive, why?"Yama answered him thus: "Well, when my eyes fell on the little bird, I saw that it was to die in a few minutes, swallowed by a python, far away from here in a forest near a brook. I wondered how this tiny creature would traverse the thousands of miles separating it from its destiny in such a short time. Then I forgot. Surely it must have happened somehow." Saying this, Yama smiled and went away. Garuda sat perplexed, mulling over the surprising turn events had taken

Yama, being the lord of death knew that the bird would die, swallowed by a python but he had no idea how this little bird would travel such a great distance to meet its destiny in that very short period. He wondered, for a moment he was lost and could not believe himself. He could not explain himself. He could not believe Garuda in his irrational, outrageous, non egoistical love would sacrifice his power and his time took the bird far away from the death. Garuda travelled not a few, but thousands of miles in his demonstration of his heart felt love. This has to be divinely inspired. Yama could not believe that people would do extraordinary things when they are blown away by Love. Yama must have said to himself that the power of love was no match for his work of mere taking some one’s life. Spirit of Love does endure forever. He had to admit Love had its glory. Its action did happen somehow. He just had to smile and walk away.
Garuda, despite being a cab driver was seized by the divine power of love. People high in the Mount or in the so called executive club were busy, caught up on their intellectual stuffs probably had no clue what Love was doing. Garuda was just humble enough to say “What did I do here?” (Perplexed)

This is what I usually see every day in the muck of my life. Life and death do happen. Can you imagine the world without people who take risk and take a walk across the room? God indeed put Love before Life.
Thank you again for reading, Special Thanks to Atanu for bringing out this story. LOVE…………VC

saidevo
06 November 2007, 11:14 AM
Namaste vcindiana.

I appreciate the childlike innocence and simplicity with which you have interpreted the great story, kudos to you! Such childlike innocence and love is what is required to realize God and the path of devotion is the best way to do it.

I read a news item in the local newspaper today that the IIMs (Indian Institute of Managements) are planning to use Bhagavad Gita to teach the nuances of management to the MBA students in Bangalore and elsewhere. They are preparing their text material which presents Lord Krishna in the role of a CEO and the Pandavas as his deputies. I understand that the American management institutes have already adopted Gita as a role model in their managemental studies.

There is another mystical angle to the story that struck me after reading your interpretation: Garuda is considered to be Time on which Vishnu the Lord of Space rides. Since the time for the little bird was up, Garuda implicitly obeyed the rule of karma and since he is the time element, he just accelerated the events to bring about the bird's presence at the destination of its destiny. Since Garuda is only a Deva he has his own feelings of love and affection and forgets his own role in the life of the bird until everything is over, which is why he is sitting perplexed. His confusion is not about the death of the bird which he knows is after all a case of disembodiment, but only about the way he has been used as an instrument in bringing about the effect of karma.

While I present this angle of karmic interpretation, I don't discount the value you have added, which is necessary for this starkly materialistic world.

atanu
06 November 2007, 11:21 PM
Thanks VC and Saidevoji for offering profound insights.

I offer my intuition below.

Garuda, suparna is Indra. The small bird is the real one here -- the Jiva. It has already reached Kailasha and there cannot be any death now, only the body has to be shed. No place, however far, is actually out of Kailasha.

Shiva -- Atman draws in Vishnu -- the abode, the mind. Or, the mind enters Atman. And Death, who is really time and not black at all but refulgent as Sun, Rudra, immediately knows that the Mukti is at hand. Time is ripe. And Indra effects the Mukti, the Jiva joining/merging with Shesha Ananta.


To me, it is a love story but one that is transcendental. It is about how mother nature works incessantly and automatically for mukti of Jivas. It is the highest love indeed.

Om Durge Namah

vcindiana
11 November 2007, 09:57 AM
This morning, out of nostalgia we watched the old Hindi movie "Aradhana”. During the last scenes I could not contain myself; my eyes were full of tears. It warmed our hearts. The name Aradhana in the movie, relates more to penance but it actually portrays the depth of motherly love through sacrifice. Please watch this beautiful movie, if you can. English sub titles are there. Yes, it is just a movie, does end just like in any fairy tale.

But there is something, it touches our hearts. Who said we cannot see God in movies? Images touch hearts and awaken imaginations. Movies like these are more important for most of us than listening to all the talks about the morality or philosophical doctrines expounded by the so called "Holy" or religious people. Freedom through love does express in every walk of our life. God cannot be other than Love.

Love..........................VC

satay
11 November 2007, 09:28 PM
namaskar,


Images touch hearts and awaken imaginations.
Love..........................VC

Yes, indeed and so do murthis (or idols as you put it) of God!

vcindiana
11 November 2007, 10:01 PM
namaskar,



Yes, indeed and so do murthis (or idols as you put it) of God!

Hello Satay: Nice to hear from you directly. You are right. Movies or Murthis or whatever, as long as these come alive and stir our hearts and passion for Love/God. Have you watched this movie? May be you are too young. I am sure it is available in DVD. I loved the scene when the mother making a deal with the God Krishna and the final scene when the son calling her "MOM" at the function and asking her come up to the stage. It was just a movie but it was heart warming and I did cry. I guess God wanted me to experience that.

Love.......................VC

vcindiana
27 November 2007, 09:20 AM
Could some of you please elaborate Verse 47 chapter 2 in Geeta ?


If a man should not perform work prompted by desires for their result, how then should he perform it?

sarabhanga
28 November 2007, 04:38 AM
If a man should not perform work prompted by desires for their result, how then should he perform it?

Namaste VC,

Please read verse 48 chapter 2 in the Gita ;)

vcindiana
01 December 2007, 12:17 AM
Namaste VC,

Please read verse 48 chapter 2 in the Gita ;)

Dear Sarabanga: I guess Your wink sign only means to convey a message, signal, or suggestion with no sly meaning.

I admit that I have failed to get the deeper meaning of "Geeta" inspite of several readings.

In my my limited knowledge I do see almost similar message in both these verses 47 and 48.

In a totally different twist I interpretted the the verse 47. Here it is:

The Verse says "karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

Word-by-word:
karmani--in duties; eva--certainly; adhikarah--right; te--of you; ma--never; phalesu--in the fruits; kadacana--at any time; ma--never; karma-phala--in the result of the work; hetuh--cause; bhuh--become; ma--never; te--of you; sangah--attachment; astu--there should be; akarmani--in not doing duties.

Translation:
Thy right is to work only, but never to its fruits; let not the fruit-of-action be thy motive, nor let thy attachment be to inaction.
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I flipped this verse and saw what would have happened: What if Krishna had said: You have no right to work, then you have all the rights to the fruits.

We all would have loved that, no work but we can live in paradise and would have had all the pleasures of eating, seeing, listening etc. Who does not want to live like that? But at a closer examination of these things reveals a huge cost that is lack of freedom. Going back to the word "eva adhikar", what I notice is that Krishna is stressing the word Adhikar which means authority or right with "eva" that is certainity. I can have no right without full freedom. Only in full freedom I can exercise my rights. It is Krishna 's job to give us the unlimited freedom. He wants us to be in the Driver's seat. Krishna does not want to guarantee a good fruit every time we do a good work, if he starts getting into this business then we risk loosing the full freedom. Freedom may bring evil things but the most powerful thing that comes out is the product called LOVE. There is no Love without freedom.
An analogy I can give is driving a car. Driving on our own requires us to be sensitive to other people on the road and be responsible drivers. As long as we follow road signs and rules we can drive safely and really enjoy the drive. Yes we can almost always enjoy the fruits. But at times accidents do happen however careful one is, some guy DWI can hurt us. We cannot blame Krishna for that. He has given us full freedom, He cannot preferentially be driving the car when it is hit by drunken driver.
Freedom is worth that cost, that Krishna automatically did not give whatever we desired. Fruit is not guaranteed. I am on the driver's seat and so every one of us.
To me this verse is a powerful message about LOVE. No freedom means no love.

Love...............................VC

sarabhanga
01 December 2007, 12:53 AM
In my limited knowledge I do see almost similar message in both these verses 47 and 48.

Namaste VC,


“Your right is to the work only, but never to the fruit thereof. Be not instrumental in making your actions bear fruit, nor let your attachment be to inaction.”



If a man should not perform work prompted by desires for their result, [B]how then should he perform it?


“Arjuna, perform your duties established in Yoga, renouncing attachment, and even-tempered in success and failure; evenness of temper is called Yoga.” [BG 2.48]

yajvan
01 December 2007, 08:19 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste VC,

I am impressed of your desire to really apprecate the meaning of these verses...PLease consider this HDF post Freedom Over Actioin Alone post (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1110) <--- just click on the title here and it will take you to this post.

If one asked me for one or two verses in the Gita that are the cornerstones of what Krsna (Jagadguru) is offering I would without hesitation point to 2.47 and 2.48 ( there would be a few more but no less the 10&#37; of all 700 verses of the Gita).

Yogastha kuru karmani is the foundation for all spiritual life.

pranams,

vcindiana
01 December 2007, 09:56 PM
Namaste VC,


“Your right is to the work only, but never to the fruit thereof. Be not instrumental in making your actions bear fruit, nor let your attachment be to inaction.” [BG 2.47]
“Arjuna, perform your duties established in Yoga, renouncing attachment, and even-tempered in success and failure; evenness of temper is called Yoga.” [BG 2.48]
Dear Sarabanga: Thank you for quoting the same verse as you did before without elaboration. I guess with my free mind I need to to do my own interpretation.

Verse 48 is the answer to the verse 47.

Arjuna : Love is Yoga. Love is the only one that dictates all your actions. Your heart needs to decide, whether it is worthwhile to fight your people who are happened to be bad. Remember, you are fighting not for your own glory, it is for the good of your good people and the kingdom, This act is the sacrifice of your feelings toward your teachers, brothers etc. As long as you have feelings for these people you are bonded, you are attached, you have no freedom , you are blinded . Without freedom you cannot understand the power of love.

I told you in my verse 47 "You certainly have the right" meaning you have the absolute freedom. Hey I am the most powerful God, I could alone have finished these "bad" people off , you did not have to do anything and would have just enjoyed the fruit, perhaps even earned a vacation in one of the tropical islands. Of course there was a condition, I would have had the string in my hand attached to you. Would you have liked that? No, I do not want you to be a puppet. Arjuna, You are on your own. One thing, You have been given the divine gift of warrior. You are trained in your profession, you are excellent in your own gift as warrior, you are not a teacher, preacher or a sales man. Love does hurt, people do get mangled or even die. Do not ever think you will be killing them out of hate. If you do not kill them who will protect your people and the king dom? It may sound duty but it is actually an act of tuff sacrificial love. Just go and do it. Love is not temperamental, it is not about success or failure.

Love...................................Vc

yajvan
03 December 2007, 04:59 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,


VC informs of of the sloka,
Arjuna, perform your duties established in Yoga, renouncing attachment, and even-tempered in success and failure; evenness of temper is called Yoga. [BG 2.48]


This renouncing attachment happens as a part of kevala or केवल .
kevala is simple , pure , uncompounded , unmingled;absolute unity of spirit; entirely , wholly , absolutely.

Yet what is this entirely , wholly , absolutely? It is the SELF. Trying to do this is effort and one confuses action and renunciation together.


pranams,

yajvan
03 December 2007, 05:00 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,

double entry .... why? can't tell ya.
pranams,

atanu
04 December 2007, 01:57 AM
Dear Sarabanga: Thank you for quoting the same verse as you did before without elaboration. I guess with my free mind I need to to do my own interpretation.

Verse 48 is the answer to the verse 47.

Arjuna : Love is Yoga. Love is the only one that dictates all your actions. Your heart needs to decide, whether it is worthwhile to fight your people who are happened to be bad. Remember, you are fighting not for your own glory, it is for the good of your good people and the kingdom, This act is the sacrifice of your feelings toward your teachers, brothers etc. As long as you have feelings for these people you are bonded, you are attached, you have no freedom , you are blinded . Without freedom you cannot understand the power of love.

I told you in my verse 47 "You certainly have the right" meaning you have the absolute freedom. Hey I am the most powerful God, I could alone have finished these "bad" people off , you did not have to do anything and would have just enjoyed the fruit, perhaps even earned a vacation in one of the tropical islands. Of course there was a condition, I would have had the string in my hand attached to you. Would you have liked that? No, I do not want you to be a puppet. Arjuna, You are on your own. One thing, You have been given the divine gift of warrior. You are trained in your profession, you are excellent in your own gift as warrior, you are not a teacher, preacher or a sales man. Love does hurt, people do get mangled or even die. Do not ever think you will be killing them out of hate. If you do not kill them who will protect your people and the king dom? It may sound duty but it is actually an act of tuff sacrificial love. Just go and do it. Love is not temperamental, it is not about success or failure.

Love...................................Vc

Namaste,

This love appears to be a bit of laboured love, almost like of the common variety.

Yoga is: to be Yuktatma -- to be Sad-Chit-Ananda. In short, yoga is to be the the Self, as Shri Yajvan has pointed out. This cannot happen without love, wherein one is happy at happiness of others and empathises the pain of others as one's own (This is the prescrition of Yoga Sutras and Christ as well).

True renunciation is being the Self, effortlessly. However, all effort is to clean the mind that has the illusion that one is not the Self.

How can one renunciate completely and effortlessly (like gulping of poison or dying on the cross) when one is not ONE?

Om

vcindiana
05 December 2007, 06:44 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,


VC informs of of the sloka,
Arjuna, perform your duties established in Yoga, renouncing attachment, and even-tempered in success and failure; evenness of temper is called Yoga. [BG 2.48]


This renouncing attachment happens as a part of kevala or केवल .
kevala is simple , pure , uncompounded , unmingled;absolute unity of spirit; entirely , wholly , absolutely.

Yet what is this entirely , wholly , absolutely? It is the SELF. Trying to do this is effort and one confuses action and renunciation together.


pranams,

Dear Yajavan: Thank you for your response and I am amazed at your grasp of "SELF" concept.

Please let me put it in this way:
Arjuna: perform your duties well grounded in Love, which is realized only in absolute freedom, freedom from every thing…..including material,intellectual, philosophic and theologic ideologies. In love there is pure, there is no success or failure, love is not tempermental, not rude, not self seeking,not keeping records, non judgemental , non authorative etc. Krishna said it right in one word it is unfathomable

The “SELF” concept you describe is awesome but it can become incomprehensible ( Krishna’s words Unfathomable) as pointed by you. For a common man like me, I may not get to the depth of this. But it is Ok; the word love does give me the perspective. For me Love is an experience through an action, it is indeed the KARMA YOGA. It has to be practical, I need to experience every day in my life. This is not something I need to impress myself or to people around me. It does stir emotion or passion , it does bring joyful tears, it does bring SAT CHIT ANADA which is nothing but God.
Talking about experience, just recently I visited India. Friend of mine lives in a dense poverty stricken area. Taking a rental three wheeler vehicle to reach that place was interesting, having lived in the Western world for years, I am spoiled. Travelling through a section of the city did challenge and stressed my olfactory nerves. The stench was so penetrating that it was beyond explanation. Once I reached the place I had a warm welcome, I was treated as a VIP and the hospitality of these people was just overflowing. They shared their time and simple meal with me and it was real heartwarming experience. The man is running a girls home. Most of these are orphaned but their smiles were contagious. We hugged each other and I left. That one day/moment we enjoyed each other was indeed sat chit ananda this is something I would have not enjoyed sitting alone meditating in my western home.

Love......................VC

yajvan
06 December 2007, 06:37 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Dear Yajavan: Thank you for your response and I am amazed at your grasp of "SELF" concept.

Please let me put it in this way:
Arjuna: perform your duties well grounded in Love, which is realized only in absolute freedom, freedom from every thing…..including material,intellectual, philosophic and theologic ideologies. In love there is pure, there is no success or failure, love is not tempermental, not rude, not self seeking,not keeping records, non judgemental , non authorative etc. Krishna said it right in one word it is unfathomable

The “SELF” concept you describe is awesome but it can become incomprehensible ( Krishna’s words Unfathomable) as pointed by you. For a common man like me, I may not get to the depth of this. Love,..VC



Namaste VC,

Thank you for your uplifting post and sharing your experiences.
The love you are able to offer is a gift for mankind, be the light-house for others.

The SELF which I harbor, think about, and study is all that there is (for me). To know it closely is the avenue to become it, so say the wise.

We have much in common on this matter... the muni Yajavalkya points this out for the love of sons, wealth, worlds, gods, etc. 9 subjects he points to. All this in essence is the love for the SELF.

If you find this interesting you perhaps may wish to take a look at this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=568


pranams,

vcindiana
08 December 2007, 07:08 AM
Dear friends:

I keep trying to get to the depth of the verse 47, ch 2 in Geeta.

Can you please comment on the last sentence: ma te sango 'stv akarmani . I would like to know how people interpret the word 'Sango'

In most of the interpretations it is described as attachment. Is that what the writer of the Geeta had in his/her mind ? Does this mean mere bondage?

Please comment on.

Thank you

Love................................................VC

yajvan
08 December 2007, 04:43 PM
Dear friends:

I keep trying to get to the depth of the verse 47, ch 2 in Geeta.

Can you please comment on the last sentence: ma te sango 'stv akarmani . I would like to know how people interpret the word 'Sango'

In most of the interpretations it is described as attachment. Is that what the writer of the Geeta had in his/her mind ? Does this mean mere bondage? Thank you...VC

Namaste VC,
The anwser to your question is compounded... that is, to take just this line without the verse or karika above it, leaves it wanting... if we do not take the next verse 48, we leave Krsna not offering an answer to Arjuna.

Let me offer a few ideas here for your consideration.

Part 1
Lets take the first idea, 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' (BG 2.47). What does this mean? Lets again take an example. A baseball player steps up to bat , he is in good shape, exercises, stays fit, practices, has excellent body-mind coordination and comes to bat with the right intention of getting a hit. Now, he has control of choice (some say freedom) over the action he chooses, this is adhikāra: adhi + kārah
adhi or अधि as a prefix to verbs and nouns , expresses above , over and above; from above , from.
kārah or कर is a doer , maker , causer , doing , making , causing ; that act of doing.

You can see then how this adhikārah then is viewed as contol or right or libertry over doing. Now the baseball player's choice is to step to the plate and get a hit, but when its all said a done and he swings the bat, it is no longer under his control, it is no longer in his hands.

This fulfills the first part of the verse - the baseball player has the' right' or liberty, control of the choice of actions one does.

If he gets a single, double, home run, or even if a Hawk sweeps down and takes the ball out of the air thinking it's prey, is now left to the universe and all the unfathomable actions , laws of nature that plays the role here i.e. Apurva&#185; is now in play on how the far ball goes and where it goes. The ball is under the laws of physics and all that, but all the other things that influnce the ball are now also in play... this is the notion of apurva.

Part 2
Live not for the fruits of action, nor attach yourself to inaction, is the second part of verse 47.
This is a teaching of non-anticipation. Do not be possessed of the fruit , of the end result and not put all of your attention on the act of doing itself. In other words do not be distracted, put your full intent in the action itself. IN other words do not be distracted by the end result that the action that you perform becomes weak and one is only chasing the result and misses or looses sight of the Divine which pervsades the action.

Now you ask about this sango in the verse which Srila Prahbupata writes as sangah&#178;. This attachment is used in the verse of not becoming attached to inaction or a+kramani. We have seen the definition of karmani above. When we prefix with an 'a' it's adding un ,having a contrary, or opposite sense. so this a+kramani = non-action. That is, do not be attached to non-action either. Krsna covers both sides of the conversation of action and in-action in one fell swoop ( brilliant!)

Part 3
Verse 48 is the instruction Krsna gives to Arjuna to become successful in all actions: yogasthah kuru karmani. (Become) established or steadfast in yoga ( union of the SELF, of the Divine , of Brahman) and perform karmani , actions. This is the wisdom for a Spiritual life and for one to perform successful actions. Why so? that would be another post, yet a person in Union with the Divine now has the support of nature on their side.


Some Concluding Remarks
the wisdom of krsna's teaching in Chapt 2 is the cornerstone of the Gita. If one lived the wisdom of Chapt 2, that of Sankhya Yoga, all would be well with the indivual, the family and the world. Just a few verses if realized bears the ultimate fruit:

Verse 45 - be without the 3 guna (traiginya)
Verse 48 - beome steadfast in Yoga
Verse 50 - thrive in uniting individual consciousness with the Supreme_______________________________________

1. Unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17). What does this mean? Simply stated , actions go far and wide and the results of those actions fructify at different times. This is apurva, or unseen potency which bring about events from past actions, either individually or collective actions of a family group or society.

2. sangah as I see it, I look to its roots: san is sam or सम् -conjunction , union, thoroughness, completeness,to join together + gah or गह् to enter or deeply into. Hence this attachment is the tightly coupled union, or attached condition.

3. I use 4 references for the Gita:
this site http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-02-46.html
Srila Prahbhupada - Gita as it is ( his book and on line references)
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - Gita the first 6 chapters - book only
Sri Jnanadeva - Bhavartha Dipka - book only
S. Radhakrishnan - The Gita - book only


Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya

pranams.

sarabhanga
08 December 2007, 06:35 PM
Namaste,

saÑgaH indicates “sticking, clinging, touch, contact, relation, association, intercourse, addiction, devotion, propensity, desire, wish, cupidity, or affection”, and especially “worldly or selfish attachment”.

saÑga is the vocative, and saÑgam is the accusative case (and saÑgaH + astu = saÑgo'stu).

And various related instructions may be gleaned from lord kRSNa’s words:

Perform your duties without touch, without conversation, without obsession, alone, without clinging to the fruits, without desiring or owning the results ~ i.e. perform your duties without worldly or selfish attachment.

And of course, do not have any association with, nor any propensity or desire for, idleness, sloth, or inaction.

vcindiana
08 December 2007, 09:55 PM
Thank you Sarabanga and Yajvan so much for your time and patience and effort in responding to me.


It is my understanding at times words cannot be exactly translated from one language to another. A writer in a particular language may have a meaning that could be understood quite different by a reader of another language. This could be related to different times in culture, history. geography etc..

As explained by you Sarabanga, the word Sangah has so many meanings but not necessarily all these mean the same in English language or any other language. For example word ( good) association may be nothing to do with selfish attachment.

You can argue that this word was used in this particular context of action and inaction.

Let me go back to the exact words …karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur ma te sango 'stv akarmani
Literal Translation: You have a right to perform your action, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your action.
Your quote “Perform your duties without touch, without conversation, without obsession, alone, without clinging to the fruits, without desiring or owning the results ~ i.e. perform your duties without worldly or selfish attachment. And of course, do not have any association with, nor any propensity or desire for, idleness, sloth, or inaction

Yajavan’s quote "When we prefix with an 'a' is adding ,and having a contrary, or opposite sense. so this a+kramani = non-action. That is, do not be attached to non-action either. Krsna covers both sides of the conversation of action and in-action in one fell swoop ( brilliant!)
Srila Prahbhupada says “Arjuna was therefore advised by the Lord to fight as a matter of duty without attachment to the result. His nonparticipation in the battle is another side of attachment. Such attachment never leads one to the path of salvation. Any attachment, positive or negative, is cause for bondage. Inaction is sinful. Therefore, fighting as a matter of duty was the only auspicious path of salvation for Arjuna.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is some thing I do not understand: How can attachment be both positive or negative? Either I am attached or detached. I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit while I am in action. But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached unless this word was used in a different context and had a different meaning.
This verse does not use the word “sangah “while describing Karmani or action, which appears to be heavily loaded word in this whole verse but this word comes in association with akarmani or inaction. Does this mean something? Do we really know the writer of this verse meant (phala) fruit of action is the same as Sangah? ( attachment as we interpret)

I am still confused

Love………………………..VC

atanu
09 December 2007, 04:54 AM
--- But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached ----
I am still confused

Love………………………..VC

Namaste VC,

In this particular case, the desire for inaction is an attachment for a preferred situation/outcome.

The inaction proceeds from the thought "I am forced to do this and this doing will have such and such negative outcome".

The volitional action can proceed from the thought "I will do this and this act will have such and such positive outcome".


Both these thoughts denote ignorance and either aversion or desire for an outcome. So, both situations are indicative of attachment. Lord has taught "Arjuna you are not the doer".

VC, Atman is not doer and the ego does not have any power to do anything. It is gunas of Prakriti that do all work. And Lord being the controller of Gunas, is the final doer, yet He is not a doer since He is Atman. Comprehending this allows me to comprehend the dictum of the Guru: "Work with the detachment of a cashier who disburses money yet does not feel any loss or gain."


(But comprehension and application are not same.)

Om

vcindiana
09 December 2007, 07:36 AM
Dear friends:

Most of the interpretations on this verse 47 mention the word “Duty’. Srila Prahbhupada goes further putting the adjective “prescribed” Does he mean each one of us has unique gift of a warrior, a carpenter or a plumber etc

What is the exact Sanskrit word for ‘Duty’? Where do I find this word in this verse?
Love .................VC

vcindiana
09 December 2007, 07:41 AM
Dear friends:
These are my little thoughts. I try not to put my ego in my explanation. If you do find it, I am sorry. please ignore it.

This particular verse (47) is indeed awesome. We can discuss about this for ever. Your example of a base ball player is a good one. In any game one team has to loose and another has to win. Each player knows this. As a human being it is natural that each player has to have “only winning” strategy. Keeping that goal he or she strives hard to win despite one also knows he or she might beaten up flat out and loose the whole game.
If the verse (47) is just trying ‘literally’ to say this fact that is already known, it does not become any great.
But I understand the verse is emphasizing the very action itself, that very time, that very moment, to be fully involved, putting both our mind and body, in an undivided attention. It is interesting my mind does think about the winning, nothing else… but only at the very beginning, once I am in action I am part of the action and nothing else. I recently took an annual review board examination. I do not know how I spent three hours answering the questions, time passed without my knowledge. More than the sweet success I still do enjoy going back to the moment answering those challenging mind blowing questions. Memories of my recent visit to India are precious to me. This is where this verse wants us to fully enjoy. Every day, every moment we experience this and it appears this all about our life. We just need to feel it. This goes back to my conviction that God is indeed these unlimited lovely (I did not say it is always good) experiences.



Let me change the gear a little bit: I looked at the real context in which this verse was said. Arjuna is in the battlefield. His problem is not that whether he is going to win or lose this battle. He is a great warrior. He knows he has mastered his fighting skills. He knows he can kill all these people. He is self assured of victory. Losing the battle is not at all his thinking. He is tormented by the question what joy he would get by killing his own people. He is more worried about the sin due to the lust for throne. This is not win or lose situation. The verse 47 answers Arjuna at a higher level. I guess It purposely ignores Arjuna’s ego, does not question how confident that he would win this battle. This is something Arjuna has to discover himself. But the verse goes straight to the power of very action or the experience itself. AMAZING.....
Love...................VC

yajvan
09 December 2007, 08:29 AM
This is some thing I do not understand: How can attachment be both positive or negative? Either I am attached or detached. I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit while I am in action. But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached unless this word was used in a different context and had a different meaning.
This verse does not use the word “sangah “while describing Karmani or action, which appears to be heavily loaded word in this whole verse but this word comes in association with akarmani or inaction. Does this mean something? Do we really know the writer of this verse meant (phala) fruit of action is the same as Sangah? ( attachment as we interpret)

I am still confused

Love…VC

Namaste VC,
In Chapt 4.16 Krsna says, what is action and inaction? even the wise are bewildered here. Krsna already knows where one struggles in comprehension, not to worry.

The words that I also think are causing mischief that you are reading in your version is 'but you are not entitled to the fruits of action'. I think better words can be used, more on this, if interested.

So lets not boil the ocean but take one piece at a time... confusion can be fixed, but only after there is comprehension of some of the things offered so far. Are you okay with 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' ? That is , you get the core wisdom that is offered there?

Regarding attachment - you mention ' Either I am attached or detached I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit while I am in action. But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached unless this word was used in a different context and had a different meaning.'

I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit
But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached unless this word was used in a different context and had a different meaning. '- this is where we have to go a bit deeper, these two points as I see it.
If you are OK with 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' , then item 1 is a non issue.. do you agree?

- this brings us to item 2 , Krsna's instruction is nor attach yourself to inaction. Krsna is saying, I told you about action and its fruits, also , do not get so comfortable (attached) with inaction either. That is, Krsna is predicting another mind set of the human condition that is ' well ok, if these actions only give me more grief by causing more bondage to rebirth, then ya know what, I am not gonna do anything, I will not act at all!' Krsna knows us better then one thinks!

On this earth we are in a life of action... The key ( as krsna instructs) is how does one act in this world without getting bound to those actions, caught up, chasing the desire of more and more, that brings more action-reaction and hence rebirth? The answer is verse 48. That is why verse 47 & 48 must be seen together. For the same reason you perhaps are having difficulty comprehending the essence of 47, is the EXACT reason why Krsna offers 48. He says become balanced in success and failure AND abandon attachment all together ( either to action or inaction) by becoming steadfast, established in yoga or Union of the Divine.

Then one is outside the pushes and pulls of the 3 gunas verse 45, 'freed from duality' as Krsna says in that verse.

VC, the purpose of verse 47 is give knowledge and set the conditions for the answer in verse 48. Then the rest of the chapter is icing on the cake.

Verse 48 is the cornerstone for the Gita, it is based upon being established in Yoga, the state of Brahman ( verse 72), that one is never deluded.

Lets stop here for now and see if this helped.


pranams,

atanu
09 December 2007, 08:32 AM
Dear friends:
-----
If the verse (47) is just trying ‘literally’ to say this fact that is already known, it does not become any great.
But I understand the verse is emphasizing the very action itself, that very time, that very moment, to be fully involved, putting both our mind and body, ------ once I am in action I am part of the action and nothing else-..VC

Amazing VC,

Truly amazing.

Most thiefs steal with full attention. Murderer murders with full involvement. A rapist will be so intent that he will not know what he is doing. This is what Lord is teaching?


The attachment attacks before and after the act.


Om

atanu
09 December 2007, 08:38 AM
Namaste VC,
---
Lets stop here for now and see if this helped.

pranams,

Namaskar,

When a person has already made up a view and puts a question, not to get an answer, who needs the help?

Om

yajvan
11 December 2007, 07:30 AM
Namaste VC,
In Chapt 4.16 Krsna says, what is action and inaction? even the wise are bewildered here. Krsna already knows where one struggles in comprehension, not to worry.

The words that I also think are causing mischief that you are reading in your version is 'but you are not entitled to the fruits of action'. I think better words can be used, more on this, if interested.

So lets not boil the ocean but take one piece at a time... confusion can be fixed, but only after there is comprehension of some of the things offered so far. Are you okay with 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' ? That is , you get the core wisdom that is offered there?

Regarding attachment - you mention ' Either I am attached or detached I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit while I am in action. But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached unless this word was used in a different context and had a different meaning.'

I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit
But when I am in inaction what is there to get attached unless this word was used in a different context and had a different meaning. '- this is where we have to go a bit deeper, these two points as I see it.
If you are OK with 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' , then item 1 is a non issue.. do you agree?

- this brings us to item 2 , Krsna's instruction is nor attach yourself to inaction. Krsna is saying, I told you about action and its fruits, also , do not get so comfortable (attached) with inaction either. That is, Krsna is predicting another mind set of the human condition that is ' well ok, if these actions only give me more grief by causing more bondage to rebirth, then ya know what, I am not gonna do anything, I will not act at all!' Krsna knows us better then one thinks!

On this earth we are in a life of action... The key ( as krsna instructs) is how does one act in this world without getting bound to those actions, caught up, chasing the desire of more and more, that brings more action-reaction and hence rebirth? The answer is verse 48. That is why verse 47 & 48 must be seen together. For the same reason you perhaps are having difficulty comprehending the essence of 47, is the EXACT reason why Krsna offers 48. He says become balanced in success and failure AND abandon attachment all together ( either to action or inaction) by becoming steadfast, established in yoga or Union of the Divine.

Then one is outside the pushes and pulls of the 3 gunas verse 45, 'freed from duality' as Krsna says in that verse.

VC, the purpose of verse 47 is give knowledge and set the conditions for the answer in verse 48. Then the rest of the chapter is icing on the cake.

Verse 48 is the cornerstone for the Gita, it is based upon being established in Yoga, the state of Brahman ( verse 72), that one is never deluded.

Lets stop here for now and see if this helped.

pranams,

Namate VC,
I am in hopes you have looked and considered the posts we have offered based upon your question.

Please advise us of your 'digestion process' on the views offered.

pranams,

vcindiana
11 December 2007, 07:43 PM
Dear Yajvan : I love you, you have not gotten mad at me once. You have in intense passion in explaining things and I admire your patience. You do have an incredible gift.
As you have already guessed lot of things I write in this forum do not make much sense but I think God has to be Love only, I am just trying hard to find this in whatever verse I read

Yajavan “Namaste VC, In Chap 4.16 Krishna says, what is action and inaction? even the wise are bewildered here. Krishna already knows where one struggles in comprehension, not to worry"

Well said, if experts are bewildered then how do you expect an ordinary guy like me to understand. Not to worry? I am least worried. I am just curious.

Yajvan “The words that I also think are causing mischief that you are reading in your version is 'but you are not entitled to the fruits of action'. I think better words can be used, more on this, if interested"
I love to hear from you later

Yajvan “ So lets not boil the ocean but take one piece at a time... confusion can be fixed, but only after there is comprehension of some of the things offered so far. Are you okay with You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' That is , you get the core wisdom that is offered there"

I perfectly understand your explanation using a baseball player. That is absolutely true in every aspect of our lives. We can only do the best, there are so many variables not everything comes out the way we desire. My question…. with no offence intended…….. What so great about this verse? Perhaps you have better grasp and understanding on this and explain me.

I looked at it at a totally different angle. You may think my mind has gone mad. That is OK, you may trash it. Here goes..

God is not commanding like “you SHALL only do your actions/duties”. It does not sound like one of the 10 commandments. In fact, it is the other way around. ”YOU have control”; God is putting us in charge! He wants us to be in driver’s seat. We have the right and we have the authority, not God! What a paradox? karmany evadhikaras te “ there is no ‘alone’ word either as you mentioned.
Adhikara as I understand is "Right", there is no right without freedom. It is not just right, it is eva, meaning certainly. It is giving the absolute freedom to us, no string attached. Every good or bad decision has to come from us, God knows without absolute freedom we will only be robots or puppets. Freedom is not doing whatever we want but in that only freedom our minds can become sensitive, responsive, appreciative, caring, to think what is right and what is wrong…etc…which are the very qualities of Love. The very next question arises is what is the purpose of God then if He cannot be in charge of our actions. The verse next says beautifully ma phalesu kadacana ‘ that is we have no control on the result of the action. Why not? I do good work and I expect good outcome. Bad works will haunt me. Even the Karma philosophy also says I get what I do good or bad, it even stretches…if not in this life may be in my next life.... which I do not understand.
God says powerfully No !, fruit is not guaranteed. What if He had said yes, then He would have been in charge of controlling all the variables of the nature such as the hawk snatching that base ball or the wind disturbing the ball. Perfect all the time. I love it. It will be heaven
WAIT!! There is an incredible cost involved, I lost my freedom, and God is in charge. I am just a robot. I cannot weigh pro and cons, I lost my sense, I cannot be compassionate, I cannot be rational. God does everything, He provides any thing I want, food will be delivered directly onto my plate. Every one has a smily face. No one crying, no grumpy old people. This will be pure Nirvana. The saddest thing would be no clue about Love. So God said it very powerfully "karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana". ..it is heavily coded.. at least to my way of thinking..

Love.......................VC

vcindiana
11 December 2007, 08:12 PM
Amazing VC,

Truly amazing.

Most thiefs steal with full attention. Murderer murders with full involvement. A rapist will be so intent that he will not know what he is doing. This is what Lord is teaching?


The attachment attacks before and after the act.


Om

Thank you Atanu for your sarcasm. Are Thiefs, murderers, rapists etc.. evil people or regular people like you and me just so happened to have evil characters ? Whenever a child does bad thing I do not think it is right to call him a "bad boy". He is a beautiful boy created by God ,but he happened to do bad things. Is it not Advaita says evil and good are the same but just opposite faces of the same coin?

Love......................VC

vcindiana
11 December 2007, 09:22 PM
VC wrote: the verse is emphasizing the very action itself, that very time, that very moment, to be fully involved, putting both our mind and body, ------ once I am in action I am part of the action and nothing else-..
Amazing VC,

Truly amazing.

Most thiefs steal with full attention. Murderer murders with full involvement. A rapist will be so intent that he will not know what he is doing. This is what Lord is teaching?


The attachment attacks before and after the act.


Om

Dear Atanu: The word Karmany here, is highly qualified with the word Adhikara. It is the action powered by freedom of conscience. Only in full freedom with no attachment of what so ever I can clearly think and can do the right or the best possible action in a situation. A murderer has no free mind. it is the fear that is commiting the crime. Neither a thief undestands freedom. He has no courage , he needs to do his action cowardly, conscious freedom forces to us to work hard but the thief tries to cut short. Rapist is so attached with the lust, in his total lack of awareness of freedom he has no clue about Love .

It is indeed amazing verse.

Love........................Vc

yajvan
11 December 2007, 10:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~



I looked at it at a totally different angle. You may think my mind has gone mad. That is OK, you may trash it. Here goes..



Namaste VC,
You wrote

you have not gotten mad at me once. You have in intense passion in explaining things and I admire your patience. You do have an incredible gift.

As we help you, we are helping the SELF in you. Are we not serving Him by doing this?



Yajvan “The words that I also think are causing mischief that you are reading in your version is 'but you are not entitled to the fruits of action'. I think better words can be used, more on this, if interested"
I love to hear from you later

Yes , we will look at this in a later post... this 'entitled' is the mischief maker in this interpretation.

you wrote

I perfectly understand your explanation using a baseball player. That is absolutely true in every aspect of our lives. We can only do the best, there are so many variables not everything comes out the way we desire. My question…. with no offence intended, What so great about this verse? Perhaps you have better grasp and understanding on this and explain me.

The verse is not paramount, except for the notion it allows Krsna to offer the cornerstone of the Gita, verse 48. It allows Krsna to teach.

Using the baseball analogy a bit further, it is the picture that allows the baseball player to hit the home run, then everyone talks of the home run.
Verse 47 is the pitch, that sets up the home run Krsna offers in verse 48 - yogastah kuru karmani. One could talk for hours on the implications of this instruction.


God is not commanding like “you SHALL only do your actions/duties”. It does not sound like one of the 10 commandments. In fact, it is the other way around. ”YOU have control”; God is putting us in charge!

Your insight here shows you have grasped the wisdom offered. Some 'argue' if you had 100&#37; control, you also would control the outcome - e.g. ' I want a home run and I will get it without any uncertainty'. Yet this is not being taught at this juncture.

Krsna knows that you/me/humans are Divine by nature and are warranted svatantrya - this freedom. Yet this comes or really blossoms in kevala ( Liberation or Moskha ) - until then we are still the recipients of our actions.

you write

It is giving the absolute freedom to us, no string attached.

That means then we are truly responsible for all of our actions, and this is why past actions need to be played out. Some in this life, some from the past that may have not germinated as yet.

So as we pick our actions we need to pick the ones that are of benefit - this is the knowledge of dharma, that which upholds. Upholds what? your progress as a person to become Divine (again) and actions that are uplifting to the environment.


Freedom is not doing whatever we want but in that only freedom our minds can become sensitive, responsive, appreciative, caring, to think what is right and what is wrong

Absolutely - this is a healthy view and ones dharma.

Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes ...Mahatma Gandhi

This is His grace...


pranams,

atanu
12 December 2007, 02:01 AM
Namaste VC,



Thank you Atanu for your sarcasm.


If you think I offered you sarcasm, I am sorry since I stand by what I said.



Dear Atanu: The word Karmany here, is highly qualified with the word Adhikara. It is the action powered by freedom of conscience. Only in full freedom with no attachment of what so ever I can clearly think and can do the right or the best possible action in a situation. A murderer has no free mind. it is the fear that is commiting the crime. Neither a thief undestands freedom. He has no courage , he needs to do his action cowardly, conscious freedom forces to us to work hard but the thief tries to cut short. Rapist is so attached with the lust, in his total lack of awareness of freedom he has no clue about Love
It is indeed amazing verse.


Gita is not one verse. All of it is amazing. You have neglected the qualifier “Eva”, which stresses the ‘right to work’ opposed to ‘expectations wrt fruits of action’. You also neglect the next verse and derive a message which is of a christian flavour.

You have apparently shifted the goal post now. You say:


“Only in full freedom with no attachment of what so ever I can clearly think and can do the right or the best possible action in a situation.
The above appears very OK now, except that what you mean by attachment is not explained. Earlier, of attachment you said:


This is some thing I do not understand: How can attachment be both positive or negative? Either I am attached or detached. I do understand not to have ‘attachment ‘ meaning looking for fruit, while I am in action

So as per you, not looking for fruit while in action constitutes detachment. To this I replied that by this criterion, a rapist has no attachment.

Then again you said:



But I understand the verse is emphasizing the very action itself, that very time, that very moment, to be fully involved, putting both our mind and body, in an undivided attention. It is interesting my mind does think about the winning, nothing else… but only at the very beginning, once I am in action I am part of the action and nothing else.

Here you have stressesd that losing awareness in the task at hand is the crux. Thus the rapist example is apt.
-----------------------------------

What can I do when the goal post is changed. I am now more amazed.

To the deity of the beast, Om Namah Shivaya.

atanu
12 December 2007, 08:11 AM
---some of the things offered so far. Are you okay with You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' That is , you get the core wisdom that is offered there"


Namaskar Yajvan,

What kind of control a guna bound individual has over action?

18.60 Swabhaavajena kaunteya nibaddhah swena karmanaa;
Kartum necchasi yanmohaat karishyasyavasho’pi tat.

18.60. O Arjuna, bound by thy own Karma (action) born of thy own nature, that which from delusion thou wishest not to do, even that thou shalt do helplessly!

18.61 Eeshwarah sarvabhootaanaam hriddeshe’rjuna tishthati;
Bhraamayan sarvabhootaani yantraaroodhaani maayayaa.

18.61. The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine!

I have not created the energy and intelligence that allows me to work. I do not know wherefrom the motivation to be impelled in some way acts on me. I do not know the next moment.

Shri Sarabhanga's citation is almost universally accepted.


“Your right is to the work only, but never to the fruit thereof. Be not instrumental in making your actions bear fruit, nor let your attachment be to inaction.”



Below are four other versions:



Your right is for action alone, never for the results



To action alone hast thou a right and never at all to its fruits



You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action.



You have control over doing your respective duty only, but no control or -claim over the results.
--------------------------------------------------


"[B]karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana". ..it is heavily coded.. at least to my way of thinking..



It appears that all above learned people failed to see the code.

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
12 December 2007, 08:32 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaskar Yajvan,
What kind of control a guna bound individual has over action?
18.60 Swabhaavajena kaunteya nibaddhah swena karmanaa;
Kartum necchasi yanmohaat karishyasyavasho’pi tat.
18.60. O Arjuna, bound by thy own Karma (action) born of thy own nature, that which from delusion thou wishest not to do, even that thou shalt do helplessly!
18.61 Eeshwarah sarvabhootaanaam hriddeshe’rjuna tishthati;
Bhraamayan sarvabhootaani yantraaroodhaani maayayaa.
18.61. The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine!
I have not created the energy and intelligence that allows me to work. I do not know wherefrom the motivation to be impelled in some way acts on me. I do not know the next moment.

Namaste atanu,
thank you for your post... the 'control' or 'right' or 'liberty' is the orientation here... the control that is offered is that of selection or volition: the cognative process by which an individual decides on and commits to a particular course of action.
If you are more comfortable with 'right' , then I am ok with it too.

The individual has this right then to select an action... not the mastry of the 3 gunas ( even though this is possible, not a discussion point as yet);

As you have quoted chapt 18.1 , I see your point, yet NOT every action one performs is the fruit of , or consequence of a past action&#185;. There are new actions performed in this life:
- Sancita karma or the sum of all actions
- Prarabdha karma - actions that are coming to fruition in this lifetime
- Kriyamana karma - the actions (seeds) you (we) are planting now for future results ( future can be the next minute, next week, next year, next life, etc.

You mention
I have not created the energy and intelligence that allows me to work.

I look at this differently - if this "I" you refer to is Aham, then you did create the energy and intelligence, and you just do not remember, that is all.http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/smiley-love.gif



pranams,

1a. Two points on this... past actions may 'groom' you to be a baker or a shop keeper, or that of a scientist, as vasanas are in play here.
1b. If we look at the kinematics of an action then this too has a string of attributes that happen just prior ( milliseconds) to an action that is the summation of mental, biological, physiological, etc. etc. attributes that manifest for an action to take place. I do not what to discount this as it is past action being the foundation for a present activity - past in this case is in seconds, not live-after-life.

atanu
12 December 2007, 11:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
I look at this differently - if this "I" you refer to is Aham, then you did create the energy and intelligence, and you just do not remember, that is all.http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/smiley-love.gif


Namaste Yajvan,

That says it all. Eko Aham only creates the energy, awareness and motivation. Till one remembers this, the freedom is an illusion.

Who here knows the Eko Aham? And who this person Atanu or Yajvan or VC? When the concept of "i", itself is clouded, who has the freedom?

For the embodied, Karma is without beginning, so there is no question of unlimited freedom.

18.60 Swabhaavajena kaunteya nibaddhah swena karmanaa;
Kartum necchasi yanmohaat karishyasyavasho’pi tat.

18.60. O Arjuna, bound by thy own Karma (action) born of thy own nature, that which from delusion thou wishest not to do, even that thou shalt do helplessly!
--------------------------

Even Lord Krishna is impelled to work lest the world stops in His wake.
-------------------------

Once a doctor confronted sage Ramakrishna and said that he (the doctor) had the free will to do social work. The sage did not reply. Another person asked "Where and when the motivation got generated?"

Atman is swatantra and not the guna bound individual. It is said in Asiya Vamiya Sukta of Rg Veda that all embodied beings work as per appointment of Vishnu. Paingala Upanishad also says the same.
-------------------------

Saying all this, it is true that the prescribed path of dharma (work free from I-Me-Mine sense) can only lead to unattached work and to freedom.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
12 December 2007, 11:28 PM
Hari Om
The individual has this right then to select an action... not the mastry of the 3 gunas ( even though this is possible, not a discussion point as yet);
-

Namaste Yajvan,

Till the so-called individual does not know Atman, the so-called selection is also a selection made by the gunas.

Lord indeed says: Arjuna know that you not the doer.

(The doing of course includes the selecting).

Om

atanu
13 December 2007, 02:05 AM
right to work without expectations wrt fruits of action.

--To the deity of the beast, Om Namah Shivaya.

Namaste Yajvan,

"----right to work without expectations of fruits ---"

As with VC, I also feel that this verse is truly the gem of Gita. Going deeper, if I ask "Who has the right?" and "Who expects the fruits?", then I reach the verse: "Arjuna you are not the doer".

I believe that this verse puts one on the trail of vichara, since for me (a guna bound individual), it creates tension that fruits of my toil may be enjoyed by another. And also, if I do not have rights over the fruits, then where is motivation?

Eventually one has to confront the transitory elusive Ego and uproot it.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
13 December 2007, 08:20 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


Namaste atanu,


Namaste Yajvan,

That says it all. Eko Aham only creates the energy, awareness and motivation. Till one remembers this, the freedom is an illusion.

Yes, this is the pickle!



Who here knows the Eko Aham?

we are all apprentices...

you mention,

Lord indeed says: Arjuna know that you not the doer

Yes, this is the truth, yet I see it differently, prakriti is the doer ( Chapt 5.14 points this out); yet this does not suggest prakriti is also the selector of the action too.

I respect your views on this matter and understand your POV, yet this is where we differ. When Krsna says you are not the doer, he is informing Arjuna you are the Supreme, you are the SELF, beyond the 3 gunas.

Our conversation then ends in a circular point-counter-point don't you think? As why then does Krsna inform Arjuna you have the right to action ( verse 47)? we are back to square one. He could have said you do not have the right to action, as Prakriti picks for you , and also fulfills the pick or selection.

For me, I am fine where I am at... I think we gave VC information that will contribute to his POV.

That Said...
If you care to discuss another part of the Gita, that IMHO influences the above conversation, let me offer this since we are talking of action. Chapt 3 verse 22 & 24 compared to Chapt 4 verse 14.

Krsna says on the one hand, there is no action I need to do, yet I am engaged in action ( this is verse 22); then He continues in verse 24 saying if He did not engage in action these worlds would parish;
Now advance to chat 4.14, and Krsna says, Actions do not involve me, nor do I have any longing for the fruit of action. This again is cooberated in Chapt 5.14

What of this? Krsna engaged in action, then "actions do not involve me". How do you see this?

This IMHO this will have bearing on the earlier conversation.


...truely there is in this world nothing so purifiying as knowledge ( Chapt 4.38)


pranams,

atanu
13 December 2007, 09:49 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste atanu,
Yes, this is the pickle!


Pranam,

Hehe. I thought it was the beef.



Yes, this is the truth, yet I see it differently, prakriti is the doer ( Chapt 5.14 points this out); yet this does not suggest prakriti is also the selector of the action too.


Well, selecting is also a doing. (Actually it is the main doing).



I respect your views on this matter and understand your POV, yet this is where we differ. When Krsna says you are not the doer, he is informing Arjuna you are the Supreme, you are the SELF, beyond the 3 gunas.

Our conversation then ends in a circular point-counter-point don't you think? As why then does Krsna inform Arjuna you have the right to action ( verse 47)? we are back to square one. He could have said you do not have the right to action, as Prakriti picks for you , and also fulfills the pick or selection.
pranams,

What you say is correct. This was earlier stated by me. Atman (the reality in us) and Krishna as the Self, do not act though apparently working. Atma Na Lipayate.

Similarly, the jiva (which is just an appearance, by Advaita) has no power to act or select.

Yet in this case Lord Krishna says: Arjuna you will act, whether you want or not, prodded by your nature and gunas. So, gunas of nature control the preferences. And that is the pickle.
-----------

I do not think that the conversation is circular, at least for me. Krsna informs Arjuna “Your right is to the work only, but never to the fruit thereof."

Prajapati says: By Yajna you shall grow. What Shree Krishna teaches is same.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
13 December 2007, 10:21 AM
Hari Om
I respect your views on this matter and understand your POV, yet this is where we differ. When Krsna says you are not the doer, he is informing Arjuna you are the Supreme, you are the SELF, beyond the 3 gunas.



Namaste Yajvan,

I also respect you like VC does. Yet, I differ strongly based on simple logic as below.

When Krsna says you are not the doer, he is informing Arjuna you are the Supreme, you are the SELF, beyond the 3 gunas.

And in the next breath when Krishna informs: "But no right to fruits ---", Is Krishna addressing to Arjuna the Supreme?

Please give a thought.
-------------------------------

The whole sentence refers to a bound individual only.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
13 December 2007, 11:45 AM
Dear Atanu: The word Karmany here, is highly qualified with the word Adhikara. It is the action powered by freedom of conscience. ---
Love........................Vc


Namaste VC,

Thought that the following verses of Chapter 5 may be useful. You are absolutely correct that action powered by freedom of conscience is true free action.

However, how one attains freedom of conscience? (You may already be aware of all these. I record for record sake).

Sannyaasastu mahaabaaho duhkham aaptuma yogatah;
Yogayukto munir brahma na chirenaadhigacchati.

6. But renunciation, O mighty-armed Arjuna, is hard to attain without Yoga; the Yoga-harmonised sage proceeds quickly to Brahman!

Yogayukto vishuddhaatmaa vijitaatmaa jitendriyah;
Sarvabhootaatmabhootaatmaa kurvannapi na lipyate.

7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.

Naiva kinchit karomeeti yukto manyeta tattwavit;
Pashyan shrunvan sprishan jighran nashnan gacchan swapan shwasan.

8. “I do nothing at all”—thus will the harmonised knower of Truth think—seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, going, sleeping, breathing,

Pralapan visrijan grihnan nunmishan nimishannapi;
Indriyaaneendriyaartheshu vartanta iti dhaarayan.

9. Speaking, letting go, seizing, opening and closing the eyes—convinced that the senses move among the sense-objects.

Brahmanyaadhaaya karmaani sangam tyaktwaa karoti yah;
Lipyate na sa paapena padmapatram ivaambhasaa.

10. He who performs actions, offering them to Brahman and abandoning attachment, is not tainted by sin as a lotus leaf by water.

Kaayena manasaa buddhyaa kevalair indriyair api;
Yoginah karma kurvanti sangam tyaktwaatmashuddhaye.

11. Yogis, having abandoned attachment, perform actions only by the body, mind, intellect and also by the senses, for the purification of the self.

Yuktah karmaphalam tyaktwaa shaantim aapnoti naishthikeem;
Ayuktah kaamakaarena phale sakto nibadhyate.

12. The united one (the well poised or the harmonised), having abandoned the fruit of action, attains to the eternal peace; the non-united only (the unsteady or the unbalanced), impelled by desire and attached to the fruit, is bound.

Om Namah Shivaya. Jai Shree Krishna. Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
13 December 2007, 04:56 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

I also respect you like VC does. Yet, I differ strongly based on simple logic as below.

When Krsna says you are not the doer, he is informing Arjuna you are the Supreme, you are the SELF, beyond the 3 gunas.

And in the next breath when Krishna informs: "But no right to fruits ---", Is Krishna addressing to Arjuna the Supreme?

Please give a thought.
-------------------------------
The whole sentence refers to a bound individual only. Om Namah Shivaya


Namste Atanu,

Yes, we are closer on this then we think ... Let me give more thought to this as you suggest, re:

Is Krishna addressing to Arjuna the Supreme?

and
The whole sentence refers to a bound individual only.


re: Chapt 3 verse 22 & 24 compared to Chapt 4 verse 14, discussion points. I am going to re-post over in the 'Scriptures' folder and perhaps we can start anew with it. It is very intriguing.

Pranams and thank you for your insights.

Nuno Matos
13 December 2007, 06:21 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Namste Atanu,

Yes, we are closer on this then we think ... Let me give more thought to this as you suggest, re:


and


re: Chapt 3 verse 22 & 24 compared to Chapt 4 verse 14, discussion points. I am going to re-post over in the 'Scriptures' folder and perhaps we can start anew with it. It is very intriguing.

Pranams and thank you for your insights.

Namaste yajvan, atanu & all


In capt 3 vers 24 of th BG we find according to my translation; " If I were not to do my work these worlds would fall to ruin, And I should be a worker of confusion, Destroying these [ my] creatures.

" Destroying these [ my ] creatures"; Since when is Vishnu the creator? Doesn't he created by the five heads of Brahma receives the world from Shiva after dissolution? In the same way as Brahma is immortal due to Shiva's work.
It says, " If I were not to do my work these worlds would fall to ruin". That&#180;s is job and is part on the other two! To be eternal.

"But no right to fruits ---", Is Krishna addressing to Arjuna the Supreme?"

I think that who Krishna is really addressing is the supreme as Narayana, since a man is free to chose due to lord Shiva grace of taking or not taking the profit of work, what he just can't is to be naturally attached to it i.e. the idea of profiting. Taking Arjuna out of the duality of NAra ( birth ) and clearing up confusion.

yajvan
13 December 2007, 07:20 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste yajvan, atanu & all


In capt 3 vers 24 of th BG we find according to my translation; " If I were not to do my work these worlds would fall to ruin, And I should be a worker of confusion, Destroying these [ my] creatures.
.

Namaste,

We have moved this Nuno to
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=18755#post18755 to organize posts in the correct folder.

please participate, as you will add value to the conversation.

cut n' paste over to the new folder as you see fit.

thank you,

atanu
13 December 2007, 10:37 PM
Namaste yajvan, atanu & all

---
"But no right to fruits ---", Is Krishna addressing to Arjuna the Supreme?"

I think that who Krishna is really addressing is the supreme as Narayana, since a man is free to chose due to lord Shiva grace of taking or not taking the profit of work, what he just can't is to be naturally attached to it i.e. the idea of profiting. Taking Arjuna out of the duality of NAra ( birth ) and clearing up confusion.

Namaste Nuno,

In essence everything is pure consciousness alone. Yet we do not expect light from a table like we do from a lamp.

"Taking Arjuna out of the duality of NAra ( birth ) and clearing up confusion."

The above statement of yours is absolutely befitting. Yes.


Om

atanu
14 December 2007, 01:28 AM
The Only Price

Life without a reason, a purpose, a position... the mind is frightened of this because then "my life" is over with, and life lives itself and moves from itself in a totally different dimension. This way of living is just life moving. That's all.


As soon as the mind pulls out an agenda and decides what needs to change, that's unreality. Life doesn't need to decide who's right and who's wrong. Life doesn't need to know the "right" way to go because it's going there anyway. Then you start to get a hint of why the mind, in a deep sense of liberation, tends to get very quiet. It doesn't have its job anymore. It has its usefulness, but it doesn't have its full-time occupation of sustaining an intricately fabricated house of cards.


This stillness of awareness is all there is. It's all one. This awareness and life are one thing, one movement, one happening, in this moment -- unfolding without reason, without goal, without direction. The ultimate state is ever present and always now. The only thing that makes it difficult to find that state and remain in that state is people wanting to retain their position in space and time. "I want to know where I'm going. I want to know if I've arrived. I want to know who to love and hate. I want to know. I don't really want to be; I want to know. Isn't enlightenment the ultimate state of knowing?" No. It's the ultimate state of being. The price is knowing.


This is the beautiful thing about the truth: ever-present, always here, totally free, given freely. It's already there. That which is ever-presently awake is free, free for the "being." But the only way that there's total and final absolute homecoming is when the humanness presents itself with the same unconditionality. Every time a human being touches into that unconditionality, it's such peace and fulfillment.


In your humanity, there's the natural expression of joy and love and compassion and caring and total unattachment. Those qualities instantly transmute into humanness when you touch into emptiness. Emptiness becomes love. That's the human experience of emptiness, that source, that ever-present awakeness. For the humanness to lay itself down -- your mind, your body, your hopes, your dreams, everything -- to lay itself down in the same unconditional manner in which awareness is ever present, only then is there the direct experience of unity, that you and the highest truth are really one thing. It expresses itself through your humanity, through openness, through love. The divine becomes human and the human becomes divine -- not in any "high and mighty" sense, but just in the sense of reality. That's the way it is.


The only price is all of our positions. The only price is that you stop paying a price.



Cited here from the source pointed out by Soul. A write-up of my liking.

Guru Ramana taught: The functions and the tasks related to the body (subtle and gross), which the Atman has brought forth, will be completed perfectly by the Atman, whether mind frets or not.

Freedom is when the mind gives up the notion of burdens. It is paradoxical that the main task of the mind is to give up the thought that it has tasks to do.

Om

atanu
14 December 2007, 01:46 AM
To the question "Where is God?",

Yogayukto vishuddhaatmaa vijitaatmaa jitendriyah;
Sarvabhootaatmabhootaatmaa kurvannapi na lipyate.

7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.
-----------------------------

This contains Bhakti, karma, and Jnana as One Realisation. God is here.


Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
14 December 2007, 04:58 AM
To the question "Where is God?",

Yogayukto vishuddhaatmaa vijitaatmaa jitendriyah;
Sarvabhootaatmabhootaatmaa kurvannapi na lipyate.

7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.
-----------------------------

This contains Bhakti, karma, and Jnana as One Realisation. God is here.


Om Namah Shivaya

Dear Atanu: Thank you for understanding. It is incredible you people have such a profound knowledge.

I constantly struggle to get a clear understanding of Geeta, I guess with my limited knowledge I see this more of an abstract idea. But it is my deep down conviction that the "divine" message is all about Love, actions or inactions are all based on Love. A person who knows love is the one who is devoted to the path of action or inaction based on his realization of Self. In my simple way of understanding it is the humility that teaches me what I am. God is too big, we can see Him in all different ways, it is amazing.

Love............................VC

atanu
14 December 2007, 06:12 AM
Dear Atanu: Thank you for understanding. It is incredible you people have such a profound knowledge.

I constantly struggle to get a clear understanding of Geeta, I guess with my limited knowledge I see this more of an abstract idea. But it is my deep down conviction that the "divine" message is all about Love, actions or inactions are all based on Love. A person who knows love is the one who is devoted to the path of action or inaction based on his realization of Self. In my simple way of understanding it is the humility that teaches me what I am. God is too big, we can see Him in all different ways, it is amazing.

Love............................VC

Namaste VC,

We all agree that Love is the highest. Yet love is manifest of One who is unmanifest, who is indescribable, and who is beyond the definitions of highest and lowest.

That is said to be the Self, Atman -- your own being. The being is love, has love, feels love, perceives love, and actuates love.

One who has not realised his Self as the Self in all beings, will not be able to actuate the all encompassing love, which is one's true nature.

Hope it does not rankle. We are all on the path only.

With Love.

Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
16 December 2007, 07:21 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
thank you,

Dear Yajvan or Atanu: I just cannot stop discussing about the verse 47 in ch 2 of Geeta. I guess I am again misunderstanding something hidden here.

Could you please explain how this verse fits with the concept of Karma?

As I understand Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cause) and effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect), action and reaction that governs all life. For me it is OK in this life but difficult to stretch this ideology to past or future births.
Nevertheless my question is how come this verse says cause (action or Karmani ) does not necessarily result in the appropriate effect ( Karma Phala) ?

I am still working on the meaning of attachment.

Love......................................VC

vcindiana
16 December 2007, 07:22 PM
God is in Love......................................VC

sarabhanga
16 December 2007, 07:52 PM
Namaste VC,

The cause of bondage IS the attachment, and without attachment (the pronominal affect) the nominal effect is unbound and released.

vcindiana
16 December 2007, 08:18 PM
Namaste VC,

The cause of bondage IS the attachment, and without attachment (the pronominal affect) the nominal effect is unbound and released.

Thank you Sarabanga. I have no clue about your words "pronominal affect" and "nominal effect" Could you please elaborate ?

Love....................Vc

sarabhanga
16 December 2007, 08:35 PM
The cause of bondage IS the attachment, and without attachment (the pronominal affect) the nominal effect is unbound and released.

The pronominal affect is “my or mine” and the nominal effect is your “appropriate effect”.

satay
16 December 2007, 11:07 PM
I don't know why it is 'difficult' for people to 'extend' the truth of karmic law beyond one short life span. It only makes logical sense.

Ever done mathematical theorems?

atanu
17 December 2007, 12:31 AM
Dear Yajvan or Atanu: I just cannot stop discussing about the verse 47 in ch 2 of Geeta. I guess I am again misunderstanding something hidden here.

Could you please explain how this verse fits with the concept of Karma?

Love......................................VC


Namaste VC,

Sarabhanga Ji has given the whole truth succinctly.

Karma attaches to the doer and the results (karma phala) accrues to the doer. Selfless work (as worship) is to attenuate the ownership of Karma --- and eventually, the wisdom dawns (as grace): "I was never the doer". Even now, you can arrive at the truth by contemplation.

What is the ownership of your doings, other than thoughts of the forms "I have to do" or "I have done" or "I should have not done that"?

You are not the creator of energy by which you do your work.
You are not the creator of the intelligence that makes all work possible.
You are not the creator of the motivation (or its source) that impelled you to do all your acts.

-------------------
Developing detachement to fruits is the first step to overcome the effects of karma.

Developing detachment makes it possible for the wisdom to dawn that "I do not do anything".

------------------------

Karma and karma phal is to the doer. When the illusion of doership goes then who is the doer? And to whom will karma phal attach?

-------------------
So, as sarabhanga says "Attachment to result", which is a form of attachment to doer -- the small egoistic self, is karma.

And as Satay says you can logically realise the meaning, if and only if, you discard your embedded values.



As I understand Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cause) and effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect), action and reaction that governs all life. For me it is OK in this life but difficult to stretch this ideology to past or future births.
Nevertheless my question is how come this verse says cause (action or Karmani ) does not necessarily result in the appropriate effect ( Karma Phala) ?

I am still working on the meaning of attachment.


The very fact that you took birth in a particular family without your apparent volition, indicates that a)You as jiva (embodied being) do not control phala, and b) that there must have been some reason (karma) which ensured your birth in a particular family.
----------------
You may please refer to 'kaktaliya' example given earlier.


Om

vcindiana
02 January 2009, 11:56 AM
January 01 2009
Today is New Year’s Day. Another time for celebration. For me, I never imagined I would be spending all night watching a good friend of ours breathing last. More I saw this was a sad day, much more my inner conscious mind realized that it was day of celebration.
A year ago friend of ours was diagnosed to have ovarian cancer. At the time of diagnosis it was found to be advanced and it had already metastasized. Despite poor prognosis she had major surgery to debulk most if not all the cancer. A few months later she started to endure series of painful and sickening chemotherapy. She periodically lost her appetite, weight and hair. Nevertheless she remained steadfast bravely facing the calamity. She had to be hospitalized when she became sick with fluid built in her chest and belly. Frequently visitations on our part started to build a wonderful and deeper relationship with her and her family. She was married to an engineer and emigrated from India to US in the early 70s. She was pure and simple. She cared for her family very much and also she was a woman of great hospitality. Whenever we were sick, food prepared from her just appeared on our doorsteps. It is interesting our real friendship entered a different stage only after she became ill.
Many times I wondered where God was in our friend’s painful period. So called God with so much compassion and mercy could not help this woman with the beautiful heart. Almost during each visit we held her hands and hugged her several times whispering to her ears that GOD LOVES HER. Somehow I felt that was the only right comforting thing to say even though my rational mind doubted it.
A week ago her condition became serious that she had to be hospitalized. Again she had to have more tests... Despite all the advanced medical knowledge and technology nothing could stop the onslaught of the malignant tumor. This time it came back with full power. She was sent home to die peacefully. Naturally her family became devastated in knowing the reality of fatal outcome. My dear spouse spent a full night at her home staying near to our dying friend. Following morning I eagerly awaited for a call to tell me that she was gone and I did not have to spend a night! No, she was still fighting to live and I guess she wanted to see the New Year. My inner consciousness questioned me whether I was going to spend the next night. It was one of the best decisions I ever made, all night, I lay on a sofa next to the bed where our friend was facing the death. I held her hands and squeezed them several times trying to tell her good bye. Her face was sweet and peaceful. I watched her breathing almost all night; at times it was labored later it became shallow and agonal. Finally she breathed last. Her family was there. It was indeed sad to see this friend go. For a while my heart became heavy. Glad I spent that night; I could hug her family and tried to dry their tears. Wow, what an opportunity I was given to encourage and uplift the spirits of this family. Now, I do not doubt that GOD LOVES US.
This is the truth I discovered: We are Loved and created to Love.
Love.................VC

vcindiana
03 January 2009, 07:38 PM
January 01 2009
Today is New Year’s Day. ............ what an opportunity I was given to encourage and uplift the spirits of this family. Now, I do not doubt that GOD LOVES US.
This is the truth I discovered: We are Loved and created to Love.
Love.................VC

Following is the respose I received from a relative of mine:

When I talked with you on phone in the morning I never understood the difficult situation wich you had gone through on 1st day of the year. I just passed on the news lightly. But when I read your e.mail which was very touching,I could not hold my sorrow I wept not only for the departed soul whom I never know but also for you couple who were the witness of painfull end of her. This reminded me the last days of Ms. M . Yes I too ask the question where the God was during her agony?
This made me to think of mercy killing, It should be legalised.
***************************************************************************************

Personally I am against such acts.

Love.............VC

yajvan
07 January 2009, 10:52 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namast&#233;

So, as sarabhanga says "Attachment to result", which is a form of attachment to doer -- the small egoistic self, is karma.
Om
Perhaps the question is ' what is attachment?' . People live day-in and day-out with ahaṃ fully 'attached' to every thing they do.

So, one can say, what is this attachment you say? I do not see this, where should I look? What is this bondage? I do not get it.

Perhaps this is a question worth inspecting? Maybe pramāṇa ( the means of valid knowledge) is missing?

There are multiple posts on this matter... I think many here will be happy to review this whole notion of attachment, its experience, application again to the benefit of the reader.
Yet one must be ready to do some inspection and questioning on how the human functions. how their own awareness works.

Atanu-ji has done a superb Job at laying out many of the principles - sarabahanga has given a view on this matter that offers insight.
Yet if this is not resonating with the reader perhaps understanding what is not being comprehended is in order? Can you let us know?

If one is stuck within pleasure and pain (suka and duḥhka) then everything that is experienced, ahaṃ ( I ) is 'attached' i.e. 'I' am happy, 'I' am going to the store, 'I' am sad, 'I' am tired, 'I' am ________ ( fill in the blank). This is the cause of sorrow - as ahaṃ is completely independent of this actions.

When one is possessed of the SELF, this ahaṃ rests in itSELF... nothing to be attached to. The person resides in even-ness (sāma); relative 'happiness and sadness' occur outside of ahaṃ - they are actions that go on, yet one is not tangled-up in these opposites. The person resides in samasta, wholeness. No part of the awareness is 'bonded' to any one thing , any one behavior, any one action. The awareness resides with the SELF , independent ( svātantra) of the 3 guna-s. It is where the 3 guna-s reside that karma and repeated births occur.

So what to do? In one word vyutthāna ( rise up, awaken). Kṛṣṇa says it like this in the Bhāgavad gītā (Chapt 2.45) be without the 3 guna-s (triguṇya) established in the SELF (ātmavān). He continues, (Chapt 2.48) and says, yogasthaḥ kuru karmānī- established (or steadfast) in yoga ( union) perform actions (karma).

If one is steadfast in yoga, then they are established in the SELF. Once this is accomplished, then the 3 guna-s are left behind. All is well with the world... yet what starts this? Vyutthāna . The decision to begin one's journey&#185;; to experience ātmavān.
Reading is fine, study is fine as it complements the experience, but it takes shutting the eyes and going inwards, leaving the book on the desk. Its as if the deep sea diver continues to talk of the treasure that lies at the bottom of the ocean yet never jumps in the water to get to the bottom. One needs to take the plunge.

praṇām

1. The notion then is movement (ra) and travel (adhva) or the journey. And this becomes adhvan अध्वन् the journey, and the person on the path is called the adhvanīya अध्वनीन, a traveler.