Impossibility/Empty Rituals

[Haridas]

Namaste.
As a Western convert to Hinduism, I've begun to face many impossibilities and some empty rituals. Many rituals people are telling me to do and they are without any meaning to me. I don't want to recite a mantra that worships Surya in the morning and Chandra in the evening while at the same time believing in Shiva, "He without a second", the Supreme Being, Who is the only worthy of worship. Some things are impossible, such as puja. However, I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted". Is there any reconciliation between worshiping Shiva the way you see fit vs. having to worship according to the Vedas? Also, are any other Western converts facing these same issues?

On a side note, this was the one reason why I was so interesting in Gaudiya Vaishnavism; because then I only have to chant 16 words 108 times a day to worship. Now, I have to perform empty rituals and somehow travel to temples and this is the only way I can worship.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Haridas


[I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted"]

How do you worship Shiva may i ask, that is against the Vedas?

[Haridas]

Namaste Haridas


[I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted"]

How do you worship Shiva may i ask, that is against the Vedas?


Namaste.
Bhajans (sometimes in English), prostrations, prayer, and japa. I've heard mixed responses; that these are against the Vedas (as in, they are not Vedic ways to worship) and that these aren't enough.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Haridas

" Bhajans (sometimes in English), prostrations, prayer, and japa. I've heard mixed responses; that these are against the Vedas (as in, they are not Vedic ways to worship) and that these aren't enough."

Withe the exemption of Bhajans I don't see nothing non Vedic in your worship. Maybe other´s here on HDF have sothing to say about that.

[Haridas]

Namaste.
I never perform puja or aarthi because I don't have the materials. Is this OK?

[Agnideva]

Namaste Haridas,

Don't be so hard on yourself. Sounds to me like you're doing just fine.


Now, I have to perform empty rituals and somehow travel to temples and this is the only way I can worship.Who says you have to perform complex rituals or that that is the only way to worship?


Bhajans (sometimes in English), prostrations, prayer, and japa. I've heard mixed responses; that these are against the Vedas (as in, they are not Vedic ways to worship) and that these aren't enough.Who is telling you these practices are against the Vedas, and these are not enough? What more do they want you to do?


I never perform puja or aarthi because I don't have the materials. Is this OK?I know many people who don't perform puja and aarti at home regularly, myself being one of them.

Don't get too caught up in musts and have tos, Haridas. Continue with your bhajans, your prayers, prostrations and japa, continue with your religious study, and attend temple when you can. Siva does not demand that we must do this and that ... just keep Him in your thoughts all the time.

Aum Namah Shivaya,
A.

[satay]

Namaste.
I never perform puja or aarthi because I don't have the materials. Is this OK?

That makes the two of us. Shiv is bolenath...please read this story if you find time: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1031&postcount=4

I can't recall the last time I travelled to temple...hmm..I think it was last year in December on my dad's birthday.

Going to temple is for satsang i.e. to listen to the wise talk about God...
Dare I say that if you don't find time to go to temple, you can log in here in HDF and join satsang here...

[sm78]

Namaste.
As a Western convert to Hinduism, I've begun to face many impossibilities and some empty rituals. Many rituals people are telling me to do and they are without any meaning to me. I don't want to recite a mantra that worships Surya in the morning and Chandra in the evening while at the same time believing in Shiva, "He without a second", the Supreme Being, Who is the only worthy of worship. Some things are impossible, such as puja. However, I'm told that when I want to worship Shiva the way I see fit, it's "against the Vedas" and therefore "not accepted". Is there any reconciliation between worshiping Shiva the way you see fit vs. having to worship according to the Vedas? Also, are any other Western converts facing these same issues?

On a side note, this was the one reason why I was so interesting in Gaudiya Vaishnavism; because then I only have to chant 16 words 108 times a day to worship. Now, I have to perform empty rituals and somehow travel to temples and this is the only way I can worship.

Strict adherence to Vedic mode of rituals is not imposed on all and certainly not to new converts. The way of the life of the dwija where from sunrise to sunset to going to bed is done under many restraints and many prostrations to many gods is meant for the true brahmin (by birth, nature, samaskaar and behaviour).

This mode of life is not meant for just seeking God but for "lokakhema" i.e benefit of the entire universe all lifes...its a great duty entiled to a section of the community for benefit of all.

Please don't burden yourself with such a duty when you are not ready for it. Sanatana Dharma accepts simple devotion as a means for God-realization.

However original vedic dharma is not just about god realization for an individual but for benefit of all beings. We have forgotten this fact and the entirely social scope of our dharma and hence plunged into depths of abyss as a society. Vedic Varnashrama Dharma sets the same aim as Mahayana Buddhists ~ but the scheme is different and much more scientific for it was created by God himself.

Namaste.

[Eastern Mind]

Haridas: Yes, I am a western 'convert'. Actually, I'm an adoptive technically. There is a difference. I had no religion, and therefore had less religious programming to give up before encountering and then embracing Hinduism. For me, there is no 'empty ritual'. If I felt it was empty, I wouldn't go. Some of the temple pujas are long, and can get boring, but that's only when my mind wanders. Its not that the puja is empty, its that my mind cannot hold its religiousity for a long period of time. Still, in the unseen mystical way, the very fact that I am there puts God's energy into me and much goes on in unseen ways.

Secondly, I don't face contradictions any more. A deeper understanding sees the 'contradictions' as just words. Words can get you into trouble. I focus on the inner part. I, like many others here, do not do a lot of ritual personally, yet am able to see Siva throughout the day in small ways. I teach, and each student has eyes. Those eyes are windows to the soul, and especially during the morning singing of our national anthem, when they are all standing there looking at the flag, I see Siva. When I hear the word 'God' in the anthem, I always get 'Siva'.

I am fortunate to spend about 6 hours a day every day during summer landscaping at our temple. I don't go inside because I'm usually dirty from gardening, yet the vibration is all over the place. I'm alone , and spend much of the time in a contemplative state whilst working away. While mowing the lawn, I chant 'Aum Namsivaya' to the hum of the lawnmower.

I too, think you are being too hard on yourself. The eastern Hindus I have met tend to be much more relaxed about the whole thing than we westerners are. For sure, time has helped me. I used to be far more anxious about 'being a good Hindu' but from watching my Sri Lankan friends handle it, I've become more complacent. My advice would be to not get in a hurry. We are all evolving at our own rates, and getting in a hurry to be ready for more and more will just get you frustrated. Just some ideas. Aum Namsivaya.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Strict adherence to Vedic mode of rituals is not imposed on all and certainly not to new converts. ...is meant for the true brahmin (by birth, nature, samaskaar and behaviour).
This mode of life is not meant for just seeking God but for "lokakhema" i.e benefit of the entire universe all lifes...its a great duty entiled to a section of the community for benefit of all.
However original vedic dharma is not just about god realization for an individual but for benefit of all beings. We have forgotten this fact and the entirely social scope of our dharma and hence plunged into depths of abyss as a society. Namaste.


Namaste Singhi,
Very insightful words and well thought out.

As the Brahmin without the quality thereof, Uttma, the birth and genes will not make up for it! The 4 fold order is the expression of the 3 gunas action. From here we get our 4 varna. We find this order in man, in the animal kingdom, etc. and our nature, as the expression of the 3 guna. Perhaps a second post on the combinations will be an intersting topic.

Your offering in Dharma rings true. Society is the beneficiary of this. So what are those levels of dharma? Here are a few ways Dharma has been viewed via the shastra's:

Varna asrama dharma - ones specific dharm/duty for various stages of life, bramachara, householder, sanyas, etc.
Sanatana dharma - the eternal dharm of upholding creation
Apad dharma - dharm prescribed at time of adversity
Yuga dharma - the dharm fundamental to the 4 yugas, (sat, treta, dvapa, kali)
Sadharana dharma - general obligations of the social individual to uphold within societyThere is also the notion that dharma is a specific quality ( visesa-guna) that belongs to the SELF. Others on HDF have also talked of dharma as the Dharma chakra pravartana of the wheel of law.

As you have said, we have forgotten. When do we remember in full as a society? Blossoming of Dharma is yuga-centric or cycle or era-centric say the wise.

Manu Smriti - Sat Yuga [ dharma is in full blossom]
Yajyavalkya Smriti - Treta Yuga [ dharma is 3/4 in bloom]
Sankha and Likhita - Dvapara Yuga [ dharma is 1/2 in bloom]
Parashara Smriti - Kali [ dharma is 1/4 in bloom ]May we all wake up....
pranams,

[sm78]

The 4 fold order is the expression of the 3 gunas action. From here we get our 4 varna. We find this order in man, in the animal kingdom, etc. and our nature, as the expression of the 3 guna. Perhaps a second post on the combinations will be an intersting topic.

The 4 fold varna are indeed the essence of the viraat purusha in whose sacrifice led to this creation ~ who is indeed the essence of all creation.


yatpurusham vyadadhuhu
kadhita vyakalpayan
mukham kimasya kau bahu
kavuru padavuchayate


When the gods decided to (mentally) sacrifice the Viratpurusha (and produce further creation), in how many ways did they do it? What became of his face or mouth? What became of his two arms? What became of His two thighs? What were (the products of) the two feet called?


brahmanosya mukhamasit
bahu rajanyah kritaha
uru tadasya yadvaishyaha
padhyagam shudro ajayata


From His face (or the mouth) came the brahmanas. From His two arms came the rajanya (the kshatriyas). From His two thighs came the vaishyas. From His two feet came the shudras.

Note the 4 parts of the viraat purusha are made of the same essence of the purusha. It is only a karmic division. Karma is indeed in the field of the 3 gunas. In a next post I'll try to indicate how gunas manifest in different types of people and hence the 4 varnas.

In past a few zealous pundits did try to interpret this verse as pointing out superiority of some caste's over the other. Brahmins are in essence come from the face of the purusha while sudras come from his feets ~ they say, indicating a sort of difference in essence.

According to shaktibad swami, if that was the case, then brahmins would look like a lump of head only, while shudras would resemble a lump of feet !!!
But on contrary all of us are of the same image of the purusha.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

The 4 fold varna are indeed the essence of the viraat purusha in whose sacrifice led to this creation ~ who is indeed the essence of all creation.


yatpurusham vyadadhuhu
kadhita vyakalpayan
mukham kimasya kau bahu
kavuru padavuchayate


When the gods decided to (mentally) sacrifice the Viratpurusha (and produce further creation), in how many ways did they do it? What became of his face or mouth? What became of his two arms? What became of His two thighs? What were (the products of) the two feet called?


brahmanosya mukhamasit
bahu rajanyah kritaha
uru tadasya yadvaishyaha
padhyagam shudro ajayata


From His face (or the mouth) came the brahmanas. From His two arms came the rajanya (the kshatriyas). From His two thighs came the vaishyas. From His two feet came the shudras.

Note the 4 parts of the viraat purusha are made of the same essence of the purusha. It is only a karmic division. Karma is indeed in the field of the 3 gunas. In a next post I'll try to indicate how gunas manifest in different types of people and hence the 4 varnas.

In past a few zealous pundits did try to interpret this verse as pointing out superiority of some caste's over the other. Brahmins are in essence come from the face of the purusha while sudras come from his feets ~ they say, indicating a sort of difference in essence.

According to shaktibad swami, if that was the case, then brahmins would look like a lump of head only, while shudras would resemble a lump of feet !!! But on contrary all of us are of the same image of the purusha.


Namaste Singhi,
thank you for the post.... I am hoping many read this as it is insightful. So often people in the west see this as pigeon holing people and stratifying humans. I see it as ones core nature. Yet it is not a function of birth, but of capacity, gunas expressing themselves in a person ( the city of nine gates) and ones penchant to act.


Perhaps you and others can give me your views on this.... 3 gunas , yet we get 4 classes¹ i.e. 4 fold order (again class here is strictly for grouping, not valuing) and not jata (caste).

We have sattva, rajas and tamas ( perhaps Singhi you can give these natures and qualities?) combinations:

Sattva dominates, rajas is secondary
Sattva dominates, tamas is secondary
Rajas dominates, sattva is secondary
Rajas dominates , tamas is secondary
Tamas dominates, sattva is secondary
Tamas dominates, rajas is secondaryIf we look above combination 2 and 5 are not considered possible as the contrast in the nature of each does not work. This then gives us the following 4 and the varna groupings.

Sattva dominates, rajas is secondary
Rajas dominates sattva is secondary
Rajas dominates , tamas is secondary
Tamas dominates rajas is secondaryThis then helps us better understand how a person, or being would have these primary qualities, and the secondary quality supports the first.
Example:
Brahmin - satvic quality, yet needs rajas to perform actions,
Kshatriya - action oriented, with purity or satvic intent
Vaishya - Action oriented, with tamas secondary
Sudra - tamasic qualities , yet with action secondary.

Note the common thread for all is action. Why so ? our cause and effect world does not yield any results with out rago-guna. One must act, yet at the same time, it has this binding influence to continue to act again and again. Its apart of the machinery of Karma. How to get out of this circular loop is at the core of Moksha and a common conversdation on HDF.



1. varṇa is considered to have two meanings ' color' and 'veil'. Varna is also rooted in 'vm' - to choose. So we can see Varna has much to do with groupings.


pranams and thank you for the informative post.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


We have sattva, rajas and tamas This then gives us the following 4 and the varna groupings.

Sattva dominates, rajas is secondary
Rajas dominates sattva is secondary
Rajas dominates , tamas is secondary
Tamas dominates rajas is secondaryNote the common thread for all is action. Why so ? our cause and effect world does not yield any results with out rago-guna. One must act, yet at the same time, it has this binding influence to continue to act again and again. Its apart of the machinery of Karma.

Namaste,

Just a thought here on these 4 groupings above... how would their behaviour be different? Let me offer an example of time with the following people characteristics as a general example on time only.

Sattvic, rajas as secondary may say - we have the right amount of time to accomplish what we need. Lets devote some of this time for upansa, or puja or yajya. ~ Brahmin-like characteristics.

Rajas with sattva as secondary may say - we have time now to accomplish many things. Lets apply as much time to be successful; lets accomplish actions that will benefit our community as it benefits us. Kasatriya-like characteristics.

Rajas with tamas as secondary may say - we have time, but if I had a few more hours in the day, I could do more. It is a great day to accomplish things and increase our profits. What more can we do? What other profitable things can we pursue to increase our wealth - c'mon, lets not squander this time, there's only 24 hours in a day! The Business man, Vaishya characteristics.

Tamas with rajo guna as secondary may say - What would you like to do today? I don't know, lets do...nahhh, I don't want to do that. Ya know I am board. How about we finish the one project we started last month...
Well, okay. Well ya know what , lets finish that tomorrow. Now, what would you like to do? Lets get a cup of tea and think about it. A Sudra characteristic.

just some thoughts... from a graha (planet) perspective each have a guna characteristic. I mention this as the Sun, typically considered hot, tejas, lots of energy is considered sattvic due it its perfect motion. Perfect balance, never retrograde.
Moon is the same, cool, balanced, we never see it go backwards yet is considered vaisya varna.
Mars is the kshatriya - hot fiery. Aways ready to engage. It has tamasic qualities, yet I buck the system and contend it is filled with rago guna.
Mercury is shudra and considered rajasic.
Jupiter is satvic and one of the great benefics of the grahas. He is called Brihaspati and associated with Siva and with Lord Narayana and with Indra. His tattva is found thoughout total creation as he owns akasha.
Venus is considered rajasic, yet considered Brahmin varna.
Saturn is tamasic; slow, lethargic. Hard working shudra. Some classify Sani as outcast, yet I do not, due to the work ethic, longivity, focus, serving others. Yet he is associated with jobs other perfer not to do - hard or dirty work, punishment.. Yet I salute Sani as as Mokshakaraka.

pranams,

[Znanna]

Namaste,

While I'd be the last to advise on "proper conduct" LOL, I think that, ideally, everything we do is in service to/an expression of Godz, and this is the prescription of conduct I choose to follow.


YMMV


ZN

[yajvan]

Hasri Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,

While I'd be the last to advise on "proper conduct" LOL, I think that, ideally, everything we do is in service to/an expression of Godz, and this is the prescription of conduct I choose to follow.
ZN

Namaste ZM,

How would you then rationalize the actions of many Islamic Militants who believe they are in fact doing the work of their God .The expansion of negativity with the thought that this brings the fruits of heaven. I do not know their God nor this heaven they pursue.

IMHO I see this as tamsic activity and w/o a clue on how things really work. A few neurons are not connected as I see it and brings unhappiness to the family of man.

just my view.

[Znanna]

Hasri Om
~~~~~~


Namaste ZM,

How would you then rationalize the actions of many Islamic Militants who believe they are in fact doing the work of their God .The expansion of negativity with the thought that this brings the fruits of heaven. I do not know their God nor this heaven they pursue.

IMHO I see this as tamsic activity and w/o a clue on how things really work. A few neurons are not connected as I see it and brings unhappiness to the family of man.

just my view.


Namaste,

To me, they are perfect "Islamic Militants" who the hell am I to say what Godz deems their fate? To react in kind only breeds more dualism, which to me is antithetical.

How do U define "tamsic activity"?

How do things really work?

What is the family of man?

:)


ZN
/just asking

[Eastern Mind]

Hari Om
~~~~~~



w/o a clue on how things really work. A few neurons are not connected as I see it and brings unhappiness to the family of man.

just my view.

Funny. I agree wholeheartedly with the first part. (I don't mean that I agree you don't have a clue) Me too. I don't have a clue. Only the intuition (real intuition, not some side path that thinks its connected to God) connected somehow to the Self has a clue. Sure am looking forward to the lifetime I realise the Self and do have a clue.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste,

To me, they are perfect "Islamic Militants" who the hell am I to say what Godz deems their fate? To react in kind only breeds more dualism, which to me is antithetical.

How do U define "tamsic activity"?
How do things really work?
What is the family of man?



Namaste ZN,

Let me do the easy stuff first... the family of man is society on this planet. It has been customary to call society the family of man.
How things really work , is to suggest the behavior shown by the Militants. That is not complementary or life supporting to the family of man.
So - Who am I ? The Emperor of this planet that says so? Nope. I look to others that have a clue. I look to rishi Vasistha ...he who tortures people and mutilates their bodies, even if he dies in battle, is considered a beast or criminal and goes to hell.
Yesterday I watched the news and a history of actions that the militants have done ... killing, burning and hanging the same body then dragged in the streets of Baghdad.
Now you will say what if the American soldiers did the same? I would view the in the same light.
Tamasic behavior - I recommend a look at the Gita, several chapters line this up, yet Chapt 18 may help. Also Yoga Vasistha has some insights. That said, killing in the name of God does not pass my common sense test. And to think that the reward is heaven, and not caring who you kill ..friend neighbor, countryman, children. This passes for tamasic.
You mention perfect "Islamic Militants". Perhaps... as I see it, perfect hate. Perfection does not infer sattva, or the action performed is life supporting e.g. the perfect murder, the perfect robbery. I do not subscribe to it and have no desire to recognize or applaud perfection when it brings angst, hate, and unhappiness to families. Life is a challenge without knuckleheads wanting to kill you for the expansion of their religious views. No thank you, there's bigger fish to fry.
Perfect hate is 180° opposite of the expanison of happiness of this universe... this is what I subscribe to.Please do not take this the wrong way; I do not wish to pursue this conversation as it only focuses on more negativity and trying to explain it; I consider my portion done.


PS: Eastern Mind - thank you for your post.

pranams,

[sm78]

Hari Om
~~~~~~


Namaste ZN,
Let me do the easy stuff first... the family of man is society on this planet. It has been customary to call society the family of man.
How things really work , is to suggest the behavior shown by the Militants. That is not complementary or life supporting to the family of man.
So - Who am I ? The Emperor of this planet that says so? Nope. I look to others that have a clue. I look to rishi Vasistha ...he who tortures people and mutilates their bodies, even if he dies in battle, is considered a beast or criminal and goes to hell.
Yesterday I watched the news and a history of actions that the militants have done ... killing, burning and hanging the same body then dragged in the streets of Baghdad.
Now you will say what if the American soldiers did the same? I would view the in the same light.
Tamasic behavior - I recommend a look at the Gita, several chapters line this up, yet Chapt 18 may help. Also Yoga Vasistha has some insights. That said, killing in the name of God does not pass my common sense test. And to think that the reward is heaven, and not caring who you kill ..friend neighbor, countryman, children. This passes for tamasic.
You mention perfect "Islamic Militants". Perhaps... as I see it, perfect hate. Perfection does not infer sattva, or the action performed is life supporting e.g. the perfect murder, the perfect robbery. I do not subscribe to it and have no desire to recognize or applaud perfection when it brings angst, hate, and unhappiness to families. Life is a challenge without knuckleheads wanting to kill you for the expansion of their religious views. No thank you, there's bigger fish to fry.
Perfect hate is 180° opposite of the expanison of happiness of this universe... this is what I subscribe to.Please do not take this the wrong way; I do not wish to pursue this conversation as it only focuses on more negativity and trying to explain it; I consider my portion done.


PS: Eastern Mind - thank you for your post.

pranams,

Most well put post on the topic.

Svecchachara is the highest achara as per some shastras. However same shastras put severe limitations on who are eligible practice svecchachara (in simple words those who have transcended all differences, a muslim militant is an verily the anti-thesis of this).

May be we can discuss the same in other threads.

More importantly however, non-dualism is the unchanging truth and not a bhava (roughly a feeling whose seed is a thought in the mind.). A bhava in buddhism is the barrier to truth for its very seed from which it sprouts is anitya.