PDA

View Full Version : An ethical/moral question to Hindus



vcindiana
15 October 2007, 08:13 AM
A couple friends of ours had a long infertility problem; finally they went through an in vitro fertilization procedure. Now they have a beautiful girl. She is just adorable, growing up like any normal girl.
At the initial time of the procedure several eggs were fertilized and I gather some of them are stored. Recently they used another fertilized egg and a new baby is on its way. Still there are a few more FE in the storage. Mother for health reasons cannot go through any more pregnancies. The couple cannot decide about the fate of the already fertilized eggs. Can you just dump them thinking they are not human beings yet? Statistically less than 50% of these eggs have a chance to survive; we can just literally discard them. But each has a potential to become a human being!

Are there any people out there looking for fertilized eggs? When do you define becoming of a human being? If we consider FE is already a human being what is our moral obligation in keeping these unborn people in the "test tubes" (prisons)? Do people make a moral conscious decision before they meddle with creation? On the contrary Science can create wonder; this couple now has a beautiful daughter and soon will have another one. How one can stop this couple not having children purely on moral grounds?

It is hard for me to give them any advice, but my conscience says to firmly stand on moral grounds however painful it is.

Your comments please…………………

Love…………………………………………..VC

Eastern Mind
15 October 2007, 03:19 PM
VC: What a tough question! I think the couple made the mistake when they had more than one done via invitro, but the past cannot be undone. (Not to mention the doctor, for not giving the full story, or discussing all the possibilities.) Science is certainly changing the way things happen, and leading us all to new moral decisions. (A new thread perhaps... scientists can now keep people (babies, handicapped peopled, the aged) alive much longer etc when a few years back they couldn't..
If it was me personally, I would try to find another couple who would be willing to "adopt". But obviously that's going to be hard. So after that fails, I guess the eggs would have to be put down as there is really no other choice, unless they want to pass them on to their daughter or something. Aum Namasivaya

satay
15 October 2007, 03:39 PM
Fertilized eggs can be frozen and one could pay a yearly fee for this service.

vcindiana
15 October 2007, 08:41 PM
VC: What a tough question! I think the couple made the mistake when they had more than one done via invitro, but the past cannot be undone. .....Science is certainly changing the way things happen, and leading us all to new moral decisions. ... Aum Namasivaya
Thank you for your response. The couple or the doctors did not make any mistake in technicality, as I mentioned earlier more than 50% of FEs do not make it and it is better to prepare more than one egg.
We cannot stop Science, biotechnology will explode beyond our imagination. Interestingly I am least bit worried as some fundamental religious people are. But I do think without morality and the sanctity this life becomes one big cold and purposeless thing. Having stated that I also state that morality cannot be taught by force or be legislated, finally it will be the FREE conscious decision of the individual person.
I do like to hear what you people say on this.

Love...................................VC

vcindiana
15 October 2007, 09:00 PM
Fertilized eggs can be frozen and one could pay a yearly fee for this service.

Thank you, my friends are paying a yearly fee for the storage. That is the least of the things.

But it does bother my consience, at one time I was like that as an embryo, thank God, I did not have to wait for my turn, I did not have to worry about whether I would be chosen or squashed. I did not have to stay deep frozen with no freedom, waiting for no certain future.

But Science is great, I do see this happy couple blessed with their own biologic children.
Do you see my point ? I am kind of torn apart ....................

Love.............................VC

satay
15 October 2007, 09:19 PM
Thank you, my friends are paying a yearly fee for the storage. That is the least of the things.

But it does bother my consience, at one time I was like that as an embryo, thank God, I did not have to wait for my turn, I did not have to worry about whether I would be chosen or squashed. I did not have to stay deep frozen with no freedom, waiting for no certain future.

But Science is great, I do see this happy couple blessed with their own biologic children.
Do you see my point ? I am kind of torn apart ....................

Love.............................VC

Yes, it is very hard.

Yet, this is the choice of the couple. They have to make the emotional decisions based on their personal beliefs and do what feels right to them.

Another choice could be to donate the frozen embryo to a couple who have no possibility of having children. The clinic that did the IVF procedure should have a donors list. Keep them frozen till someone is in a need to use one. These are all very personal decisions that the couple has to make.

satay
15 October 2007, 09:27 PM
It is hard for me to give them any advice, but my conscience says to firmly stand on moral grounds however painful it is.

Your comments please…………………

Love…………………………………………..VC


Though it may be irrelevant to what the couple will do eventually, what's your own position on this?

sm78
16 October 2007, 12:49 AM
A Hindu couple should ideally avoid this and turn for a remedy prescribed in shastras. Couples not having child is not a new problem, and guess what , there are special rites which couples can perform to get blessed with children. The famous one I think is a yajna performed to Soorya (Sun).

Desire to have children is very legitimate and since western religions has no clue into life and how to deal with desires (kama), couples can only turn to science which is still developing and hence not prefect. The karmic consequence of this mishap will be born by humanity and not just the couple as per my understanding.

What the couple decides to do now can only be driven by practical considerations. FT is the seed to a new individual and killing it, incurs sins or karmic consequences. If there is no way to avoid it, it has to be incurred.

satay
16 October 2007, 09:19 AM
Namaskar Singhi,


A Hindu couple should ideally avoid this and turn for a remedy prescribed in shastras. Couples not having child is not a new problem, and guess what , there are special rites which couples can perform to get blessed with children. The famous one I think is a yajna performed to Soorya (Sun).


There are sometimes such medical conditions in which even a healthy couple has no choice but to go with the IVF treatment e.g. in case of loss of both flopian tubes. Many women loose these tubes due to pregnancies known as 'ectopic' where the fetus starts growing in the tube. Doctors have no choice but to cut the tube thus closing the only pathway to the uterus. So in these cases no amount of rites can help because the actual pathway has been closed off by the doctor to save the mother. If the tube, where the fetus starts growing is not cut in time, the woman can die.

In such cases, even hindu couples have no choice but to turn to science if they wish to have a biological child together.



Desire to have children is very legitimate and since western religions has no clue into life and how to deal with desires (kama), couples can only turn to science which is still developing and hence not prefect. The karmic consequence of this mishap will be born by humanity and not just the couple as per my understanding.


In the final analysis, for me personally, the desire to have a children though legitimate is not a wise one at all!



What the couple decides to do now can only be driven by practical considerations. FT is the seed to a new individual and killing it, incurs sins or karmic consequences. If there is no way to avoid it, it has to be incurred.

It's like the arrow that has left the bow...

Sometimes, we see roadblocks in front us, some of us go around them, some of us turn back, some of us step on the road block and jump over...individual choice...

atanu
16 October 2007, 01:54 PM
Namaste to VC and all,

A complicated and challenging question.

The karma is always in the mind. One who is unaware of a scriptural injunction does not invite karma in same fashion as one who knowlingly transgresses.

Further, please do not create the guilt, which itself will be a karma. Best, under the present circumstance, possibly, is Satay's suggestion.

Further, assuming doership for the happenings in and of prakriti is the biggest karma, which can be overcome with the knowledge "I am not the doer".

---------------

Dear VC may not be satified with above. ("I am not the doer" is not fatalism but jnana.)


Om

vcindiana
16 October 2007, 03:32 PM
Though it may be irrelevant to what the couple will do eventually, what's your own position on this?

Dear Satay: I have already stated , morality takes precedence, but morality should not be forced at the point of gun as some fundamental religious people like to do. My heart goes to those embryos who have potential for full life. I do not claim to be a Saint,not even close . Thank God We just went and adopted an orphan girl. I learnt lot more lessons of life from her in the last 20 years than any thing else in my life.

Dear Atanu;You are right, no offence to you, I personally do not believe in Karmic theory nor do I believe in Christianity's theory of Sin.

Thank you all, I close this thread.

Love you people...............................VC

sm78
17 October 2007, 02:21 AM
Further, please do not create the guilt, which itself will be a karma.
Om

And, not creating guilt is not Karma ?? I do not get how not creating guilt for wrong doing is better than creating guilt. Both are thoughts and actions. Just feeling guilty doesn't make much difference ~ but that's besides the point.

I think religious injunction in our dharma for a wrong doing is understand that wrong has been done, accepting the responsibility for the same and performing the required penance to minimize and mitigate the karmic effect.

There are penance's prescribed even for killing a "brahmin", so I am sure this karma will have some prescribed penance which can bring peace to the couple and more importantly, an ounce of peace to the humanity at large.

atanu
17 October 2007, 03:11 AM
And, not creating guilt is not Karma ?? -

Namaskar SM,

If you do a wrong unknowingly and I (having some power) make you feel guilty about it, will that be a good thing?

Of course, the intention matters.

Om

atanu
17 October 2007, 04:06 AM
-----but morality should not be forced at the point of gun as some fundamental religious people like to do. My heart goes to those embryos who have potential for full life. I do not claim to be a Saint,not even close . Thank God We just went and adopted an orphan girl. I learnt lot more lessons of life from her in the last 20 years than any thing else in my life.

Dear Atanu;You are right, no offence to you, I personally do not believe in Karmic theory nor do I believe in Christianity's theory of Sin.

Thank you all, I close this thread.

Love you people...............................VC

Love you VC,

Though you have closed the thread from your side please consider the following. I agree that morality should not be imposed.

However, when you say that you do not believe in karmic theory, I will query: why this issue of fertized eggs is bothering you?

This feeling of pain/distress or the opposite sensation of being happy is karma. You cannot deny that you have a view, happy or painful, whatever name you give to it.

Language apart, when Jesus says: "Let thy will be done" or a Shiva bhakta accepts all happenings as the play of Shiv-Shiva, it amounts to loving acceptance of God's will. This does not mean passive acceptance. But it means doing one's duty without expectation of personal gain and doing one's duty as worship. This is equanimity.

What I am saying is not different in essence from your view that God is Love.

Om

Life is in the fertilized egg and life is also in the sperm. Why then are we not equally bothered about life not coming to fruition due to night fall, or masturbation, or protected sex?

Arjuna
17 October 2007, 06:15 AM
Can you just dump them thinking they are not human beings yet?

Upanishads say that soul enters an embryo on 6th month of pregnancy. And logically we cannot consider "a human being" something which has no nervous system.

sm78
17 October 2007, 07:00 AM
.... protected sex?
I think protected sex, contraception are not in accordance with the catholic religion...VC will know more.

vcindiana
17 October 2007, 04:44 PM
Love you VC,

However, when you say that you do not believe in karmic theory, I will query: why this issue of fertilized eggs is bothering you......

Life is in the fertilized egg and life is also in the sperm. Why then are we not equally bothered about life not coming to fruition due to night fall, or masturbation, or protected sex?


I guess I need to stay on this thread for a while.

I enjoyed reading your post.

Personally I look at moral decisions are some things what I feel is right to my own consciousness. I consider once the egg is fertilized it is a potential human being. A sperm or an ovum itself cannot become a human being . Nature itself terminates most of the unused sperms, ova and defective fertilized eggs. My concern is the purposeful human intervention in holding these potential human beings as hostages in the cold cells. I just cannot believe that because of Karma that these poor eggs had their fate.



This feeling of pain/distress or the opposite sensation of being happy is karma. You cannot deny that you have a view, happy or painful, whatever name you give to it.

I do believe in both pain and pleasure. These are twins. I do not deny them. There is absolutely suffering in this world. P and P are the products of human freedom. WITHOUT FREEDOM THERE IS NO LOVE. I cannot imagine world full of saints, I would not have known the meaning of Love.





Language apart, when Jesus says: "Let thy will be done" or a Shiva bhakta accepts all happenings as the play of Shiv-Shiva, it amounts to loving acceptance of God's will. This does not mean passive acceptance. But it means doing one's duty without expectation of personal gain and doing one's duty as worship. This is equanimity.

I do agree with you. I have no control in my life. My scientific knowledge and achievements do have limitations and these do often run out. I do need faith to face the uncertainty. More than this, submitting to God is a real humble experience for me. Through humility alone I experience self realization. That is good for me.

Thank you for reading my 'jumbled' up mind .

I love heart stuffs much more than intellectual stuffs. Yes, I do cry.

Love............................vc

vcindiana
17 October 2007, 10:13 PM
I think protected sex, contraception are not in accordance with the catholic religion...VC will know more.

Thank you for your post.

I know this goes even deeper treating a sperm or an ovum as a potential human being. It does become hard to draw a line. We can keep debating. But I do respect individual conscious decision based upon Love. Again morality should not be forced. My conscience thinks human being is born at the time when ovum is fertiized by the sperm. It is a timed event and can be more objective.

Love........................................VC