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yajvan
16 October 2007, 10:32 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I was watching a program today that tried to explain the phenomenon of miracles. The notion was to show that there was a natural explanation behind these events. They did not try to discount the event, they just said how can this be explained?

It has occurred to me for some time now, as to why shouldn't a miracle have a physics explanation. If I were God or a devata doing this action, why would I not want to use the tools in the tool box? The laws of nature that allow you to influence and control prakriti?

When you think about it, would not someone say a few thousand years ago find it a miracle if you drove up to the local temple in a car? It would amaze them. To you , you are thinking what's the big deal? An engine, some wheels a transmission, whats the fuss?

Or You walked into Newton's home with a laptop , and you had Excel on it, you have a statistics & math application on it. You then solved a few questions, and you asked his for a suggestion on a math problem ( assuming you were comfortable with math), What would Newton do?

So, even with siddha's that have some special power. We should rejoice and say what is the physics behind this? New laws of nature that I am not aware of are operating. As I think, the siddha is using the natural intelligence found in this creation. If given by God, or divinity, or tapas, it is in this universe and there for all to use.

There is no need for a 'miracle' per se if you can access subltler laws or dormant laws of nature we have not exercised. It still does not discount the awe and delight to see this or experience it.

So, then what is a miracle? Life, the creation of every innumerable law of nature known or not known, and complete annihilation and returning this whole creation back into the Absolute. Are there more? sure. I am sure you have a dozen of 'em.

Nothing beats a good miracle I say, to make your day!

pranams,

Sagefrakrobatik
09 August 2008, 05:57 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I was watching a program today that tried to explain the phenomenon of miracles. The notion was to show that there was a natural explanation behind these events. They did not try to discount the event, they just said how can this be explained?

It has occurred to me for some time now, as to why shouldn't a miracle have a physics explanation. If I were God or a devata doing this action, why would I not want to use the tools in the tool box? The laws of nature that allow you to influence and control prakriti?

When you think about it, would not someone say a few thousand years ago find it a miracle if you drove up to the local temple in a car? It would amaze them. To you , you are thinking what's the big deal? An engine, some wheels a transmission, whats the fuss?

Or You walked into Newton's home with a laptop , and you had Excel on it, you have a statistics & math application on it. You then solved a few questions, and you asked his for a suggestion on a math problem ( assuming you were comfortable with math), What would Newton do?

So, even with siddha's that have some special power. We should rejoice and say what is the physics behind this? New laws of nature that I am not aware of are operating. As I think, the siddha is using the natural intelligence found in this creation. If given by God, or divinity, or tapas, it is in this universe and there for all to use.

There is no need for a 'miracle' per se if you can access subltler laws or dormant laws of nature we have not exercised. It still does not discount the awe and delight to see this or experience it.

So, then what is a miracle? Life, the creation of every innumerable law of nature known or not known, and complete annihilation and returning this whole creation back into the Absolute. Are there more? sure. I am sure you have a dozen of 'em.

Nothing beats a good miracle I say, to make your day!

pranams,

Yea but Miracles are used to prove the superiority of one religion over the other. Look at all those christian ministries that supposedly heal people by calling on the name of Jesus. I've been to a pentecostal like service where a man I believe was supposedly healed of Cancer, my friend attributed his $6,000 lotto ticket to praying and he is Christian. Look at all miraculous sightings of Lady Fatima around the world. Christianity is a religion filled with unexplainable miracles. If your a Christian this would support your claim that Christianity is the one and only true religion.

yajvan
09 August 2008, 07:34 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Yea but Miracles are used to prove the superiority of one religion over the other.
Namaste Sagefrakrobatik
Are you suggesting that miracles (siddhi-s) are performed with that end in mind? Or are you suggesting that those filled with mala us these to support a particualur view or argument?

saidevo
10 August 2008, 07:24 AM
Namaste Yajvan.

Swami Paramahansa Yogananda has given a 'scientific' explanation of the Law of Miracles in his book Autobiography of a Yogi, chapter 30. This book can be read at/downloaded from:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7452 (HTML)

http://www.aren.org/prison/documents/religion/Misc/Autobiography%20of%20a%20Yogi--Paramhansa%20Yogananda.pdf

http://www.kriyayoga.com/free/eBooks/Autobiography_of_a_Yogi--by_Paramahansa_Yogananda_1946_edition.pdf

Sometime back Sarabhanga said that photons are the basic building blocks of all manifestations. Yogananda has explained how yogis can manipulate the power of light for their miracles of creation.

Sudarshan
10 August 2008, 02:21 PM
Light is only a physical manifestation of the 'spiritual light' which is really called light only as an analogy because it cannot be described in the way the physical phenomena can be.

The fundamental particles as given by the shAstras are the five elements, of which the most basic element is shabda. This subtle shabda( shabda tanmAtra) is the fundamental particle of manifest nature. Everything is a wave in its most subtle aspect.

All miracles shown by yogis and avatAras are due to their more advanced knowledge about these five elements. Some yogis know about the earth element, some about the water, some about fire, some about air and the most advanced yogis know about the infinite AkAsha that gives them unlimited powers. Knowing this Akasha, one also consequently knows the cidAkAsha which is Brahman. These elements are not just insentient matter but are vibrant with divine energy as one begins to percieve these elements directly.

While we speak about these elements, the evolved Yogis actually percieve them so that makes a big difference in the way they view the world. For the full avatAra like Sri Krishna his will is the law - he has no need to obey any laws of physical nature or even the sublest laws of nature.

yajvan
10 August 2008, 06:52 PM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~
Namaste Sudarshan ( et.al)

The reason why light, prākaśa, is mentioned is, it compliments name (nāma) and form (rūpa) by which this universe exists. With the sound tanmāntra you call out, śabda, name is possible. With prākaśa, rūpa becomes possible.

As you suggest prākaśa is associated with Spiritual light and this too is considered Full Consciousness, anuttara, some like to call it citta praylaya or the destruction of finite, or individual consciousness.

Yet this ether or space you mention (ākāśa), it provides the environment for this form to occur and for sound to take place.
So this ākāśa is quite subtle and part of the pańca mahabhūta or 5 great subtle elements. Subtler then this ākāśa is consciousness or awareness we all use daily.

It is my assessment and study that the various sages performed these extraordinary actions (miracles) operating on the Consciousness level to influence what takes place within name and form and hence within pańca tańmāntra. Since they ( the muni-s) are operating at the fundamental level of consciousness, their influences go up into and through:

the pańca mahabhūta-s: 5 great elements
pańca tańmāntra-s-: 5 subtle elements
pańca karmendriya-s : 5 organs of action
pańca jnanendriya-s : 5 organs of cognition
etc. Many call the subtlest tattva or that-ness, aham (I) and this is that pure consciousness state mentioned above.

This 'operating level' is suggested in the Yogadarśana of Patańjali and called out ( less specifically) in the Spanda-kārikās; Other śastras also call out the siddhi's one can attain. Yet I have found Patańjali is more specific on his offers.

In each case Patańjali suggests to the practitioner that saṁyama¹ by exercised within his/her field of consciousness. From this consciousness siddhi-s occur that influence the tattva-s listed above - hence the influence on creation at the fundamental levels.

Just as one working at the sub-atomic level of existence affects all the structures above that level, like that, when one operates at finer and finer levels of Being, the power and expanse is of a profound nature.
We then hear of miracles... the yogi, sage, avatāra is using a new level of physics, based on cosmic principles in which we are in awe.

pranams
1. more information on saṁyama संयम, consider this HDF Post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=909&highlight=samyama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=909&highlight=samyama)

Sudarshan
11 August 2008, 02:44 AM
The depth of subtility has the following order -

pR^itivi --> ApaH --> agni --> vAyu --> AkAsha -> manas --> subtle pR^itivi --> ApaH --> agni --> vAyu --> subtle AkAsha -->avyakta -->
jIva--> brahman( pure consciousness)

jnAnedriyas and karmednriyas are subtler than panca mahA bhUtas.

The amount of jnAna/siddhi is directly proportional to the subtlest level at which you have aparoxa jnAna. Those who intuit the final knowledge 'I am Brahman' or 'All is Brahman' after understanding all lower tattvas to have emanated from Brahman have unlimited knowledge and almost unlimited powers. ( except some special powers of the Lord like creation of the universe which no Yogi is capable of anytime). It is unlikely that any Yogi will display these powers and knowledge in public. Any Yogi who has reached the summit realizes the futility and limitations of any powers because he now enjoys the infinite bliss of his being before which anything in the universe is just a blade of grass. Any half evolved Yogi who enjoys these Lordly powers risks loosing all the acquired spiritual merits. Until you attain the highest samAdhi nothing you attain is permanent.

yajvan
11 August 2008, 12:46 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Yes, yet we started the conversation with light. I offered the following:

The reason why light, prākaśa, is mentioned is, it compliments name (nāma) and form (rūpa) by which this universe exists. With the sound tanmāntra you call out, śabda, name is possible. With prākaśa, rūpa becomes possible.

I also gave an audit trail on how the sage may in fact utilize the tattva-s for miracles to occur and how this is connected to prākaśa via name and form, where miracles occur.


You offer the march of the tattva from gross to subtle, thank you. Yet I see no difference between gross pañca mahabhūta-s suggested and the subtle ones outlined. How do they differ ? and by what name do they go by?

That is, I cannot discern between gross ākāśa and a subtle one.How are you differing space unless you are referring to cit-ākāśa as subtle. If so can you point this out.. are you considering kham or Brahman as this subtler ākāśa? (per Bṛhadaraṇyaka Upaniṣad).


Please advise on where you wish to take the conversation... siddhi, light, tattva or miracles ? I will be happy to participate.

parnams

Sudarshan
12 August 2008, 03:21 PM
Gross elements make up this physical universe - they are responsible for all names and forms in the waking state. Science cannot possibly penetrate beyond this and all laws of the universe is based on the derivatives of the gross elements. This universe collectively is the Agni vashvAnara and we are just like different limbs and organs on this divine person.

Subtle elements are well, subtle. The astral realms are made of subtle elements which are actually 'mental constructs' and not as fleshy as ours. The bodies of devatas, evolved rishis etc are made of subtle elements. This corresponds to the divine taijasa purusha in whom all devatas and higher lokas reside. Those who have access to this subtle realm can perform miracles that cannot be explained by science. ( atleast the presemt day science). If you have mind so pure you will be able to see the beings ( such as devatas) in this state. Infact, the process of seeing here is very different from what the physical eyes see. Everything is so light and pure and raditates more divine nature than the heavy gross matter in the waking state.
The taijasa world has names and forms but are much lighter than gross elements and they cannot be understood by science in its present stage. The sublest Akasha still belongs to this world.


Beyond the realm of the taijasa purusha is the nameless Lord ( prAgnya)who rules both the material and the astral universe. This realm is beyond the universe and beyond the subtle AkAsha-tanmAtra and is pure bliss and knowledge. It is also called para vyoma. This is the causal ocean from which all dualty arises. ( symbolized by vishNu residing on the ocean). This realm is beyond prAkR^itik name and form and beyond any description in terms of earthly analogy. This is the highest vision possible for those still in samsAra.

Even beyond the causal ocean is the cause of all causes, the fourth. Only muktas know what this is and as B.U mentions 'na pretya saMjna asti', one who departs to this realm has no consciousness similar to those in samsAra. It can only be experienced and not described and naturally beyond the limits of science and logic.

yajvan
12 August 2008, 09:11 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

the 4th turya ( some like to write turiya) can be experienced today. Once this 4th is established then Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization) is revealed i.e. turiyatit chetana (sustained turya) is experienced by the native; a purely subjective experience.

Now how does one get there? Though meditation, through His grace (anugraha), through ones insights, the paths are many.
Yet for meditation, one settles down the mind… The notion is to experience sūkṣma gati. What is that ? Refined, subtle, awareness.

It is the subtle march or progression of awareness to finer and finer levels of being, or consciousness. This some call pratimīlana. That is, inward facing ( possessed of the SELF) yet engaged in the world of objects and diversity. The sādhu is never shaken from the diversity of life, as s/he is firmly established in anuttara or Supreme.

We have had lengthly discussions on this matter if you wish to take a look:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2996
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1773

pranams and thank you for your post.

Sudarshan
13 August 2008, 01:54 AM
The experience of turya is very rare.

Even very great rishis do not experience it. Even devatas do not always experience it ( see the episode in kena where dieties such as indrA, agni etc loose their divine consciousness and get possesed by pride), so what to speak of humans. Virtually no one in samsAra experiences it though many people have claimed so. Those living in the high realms of brahma lOka get the turya consciousness from time to time but even they do not possess it all the time. Not even our creator chaturmukha brahma experiences it all the time.

It is possible to experience the subtle nature of jAgrat and taijasa in meditation and most people never succeed in going beyond this - such a soul who crosses taijasa is very rare. This is the grim reality. The conditions to cross the taijasa are absolute desirelessness in any earthly object or heavenly pleasures - how many people really meet this condition? Not even most rishis or devatas meet this condition and to find such humans is rarer still.


Many people have visions in meditation or otherwise - but almost all these are only in the realm of jAgrat/taijasa. To see the all knowing Lord in association with time is very rare. To experience the Lord in his absolute nature ( beyond space/time) is even more difficult. We only evolve gradually over tens of thousands of births progressively into the deeper and deeper secrets of God. Since there is no way to know how far we have evolved in the course of our former births, there is no reason why someone cant experience the absolute truth here and now itself. But remember that it is a rare privilege even for the dieties. To claim that Lord reveals himself wholly more easily to some humans but does not do so to evolved dieties is something that is often overlooked - it is an arthavAda.

sm78
13 August 2008, 05:41 AM
As they say 'neti neti'. Once u have grasped something in conciousness, realize that this is not that, as knowledge cannot touch that.

The best possible grasp of supreme state in our world, imho, is doing what is the necessary without any attachment bound by ideologies, emotions, purpose, duty and indeed I.

Our existence is a limited reality (which cannot be changed) while supreme is not limited, but we can perhaves grasp the true essence of the lIlA as selfless duty ...

yajvan
13 August 2008, 02:09 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


The experience of turya is very rare.
Namaste Sudarshan,
I can say without hesitation this turiya is quite normal... It is 'rare' perhaps for the people choosing not to take the time to experience it. My teacher has taught many.

There are people on HDF that are relatively new to Meditation that experience it, my daughter being new to meditation experiences it. Many on this earth experience this 4th, talk of it (not brag) and describe this simple experience. That of restful alertness, the body perfectly still, the mind awake, bright (prākaśa), clear yet in transcendence.

People may find it 'mystical' because they cannot recreate the steps for turiya to be experienced again. For this there are 112 ways you are invited to review in the Vijñāna bhairava kārikā-s. The 112 bhāvanā-s are for all types of people and within their present stage of development i.e.

śāmbhavopāya [śāmbha + upāya] - this is considered the highest means
śāktopāya - this is considered the middle means
āṇavopāya - this is considered entry levelA diamond remains rare only when one chooses not to go looking for for the diamond mine, where all the diamonds reside. This turiya (the diamond) can be found in the gaps of the day (saṃdhyā), between each breath, between thoughts, in the center or madhya ( the diamond mine).

The next state is to stabilize it that is turiyatit chetana (sustained turya). Let me offer the hint of what the wise say to sablize this turiya into turiyatit chetana: withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal. There are many that practice this daily.

Siva's grace (anugraha) brings one to this experience. He is too kind to let the family of man wallow in ignorance (avidya). Hence turiya is not much of an academic discussion, its one of experience...

An ounce of practice is better than tons of theory - Svāmi Śivanāṇda

pranams

words used and references

madhya मध्य - middlemost , intermediate , central, standing between two , impartial , neutral. What is one between? the in and out breath that is calm. Over time it blossoms to turiya
bhāvanā भावना - reflection , contemplation ; finding by combination or composition ;saturating any powder with fluid , steeping , infusion
HDF post on Vijñāna bhairava kārikā-s http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2323

Sagefrakrobatik
17 August 2008, 04:54 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Namaste Sagefrakrobatik
Are you suggesting that miracles (siddhi-s) are performed with that end in mind? Or are you suggesting that those filled with mala us these to support a particualur view or argument?


Sort of. I guess what I'm saying is that from my background Christianity, Christ is a God of miracles, so you will see televangelist say that they heal people of diseases by calling on the name of Christ. Or people who were sick will "testify" that they were healed after they called out to Jesus.

Sudarshan
19 August 2008, 02:21 AM
There are people on HDF that are relatively new to Meditation that experience it, my daughter being new to meditation experiences it. Many on this earth experience this 4th, talk of it (not brag) and describe this simple experience. That of restful alertness, the body perfectly still, the mind awake, bright (prākaśa), clear yet in transcendence.

People may find it 'mystical' because they cannot recreate the steps for turiya to be experienced again. For this there are 112 ways you are invited to review in the Vijńāna bhairava kārikā-s. The 112 bhāvanā-s are for all types of people and within their present stage of development i.e.


Please dont take this as a challenging note.

In the light of turya there is the all encompassing wisdom. One who has experienced it is almost all knowing ( just like the Lord) and retains a considerable portion of that knowledge even when he drops down.

Can you testify to the fact that those who claim to experience turya are all knowing? Ask them to first recite the vedas from start to finish ( which is after all paroxa jnana) and then we can decide if they had some aparoxAnubhUti.

The ultimate Wisdom never comes overnight if it were so easy we had mo need for so many shAstras. Look at what Lord Krishna says in the Gita.

manuShyANA.n sahasreShu kashchidyatati siddhaye .
yatatAmapi siddhAnA.n kashchinmA.n vetti tattvataH .. 7-3..

Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

Note what is said ' of thise who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth'. Even those who are aparoxa jnAnins only a very small group has full knowledge of the Lord, ie turya.

In the earlu stages of meditation there are many repeated sightings of the deeper mysteries of nature, and all these experiences happen in the jAgrat and taijasa realms. This is called paroxa jnAna where one is sure of the existance of God without knowing about its nature. ( Like moon is seen as a small disc from earth and a little is known about it). As meditation deepens over a period of time ( spanning many births) at some point there are experiences such as vishvarUpa datshana. As one continues sAdhana one gets the turya consciousness and after plenty of such experiences one gets permanently established in it.

It is possible to encourage others by saying that it is all too easy ( christians and muslime say that just one birth is all you need, it is a hope given by the founders of the religion) but those who have tread the path to the final destination know how long and tedious the journey is. The peace that one obtaines in meditation is not turya, in turya there is knowledge of all that exists and you are not different from the Lord.

Sudarshan
19 August 2008, 03:08 AM
As they say 'neti neti'. Once u have grasped something in conciousness, realize that this is not that, as knowledge cannot touch that.

The best possible grasp of supreme state in our world, imho, is doing what is the necessary without any attachment bound by ideologies, emotions, purpose, duty and indeed I.

Our existence is a limited reality (which cannot be changed) while supreme is not limited, but we can perhaves grasp the true essence of the lIlA as selfless duty ...

Well said singhi.

Doing selfless duty brings down the grace of God who will directly instruct you into the deeper mysteries of Yoga just like he did for Arjuna.

This kind of vairAgya is a prerequisite for obtaining any kind of God vision but in our world even swamijis with huge bank balances talk about the ultimate realization of God. Funny.

shAstras do not say that obtaining the highest experience is a common occurrance. It is rarer than the rarest events. It is one in a billion sort of thing. kAtha upanishad compares the path of yogic sAdhana as akin to walking on a razor's edge.

uttishhThata jaagrata
praapya varaannibodhata .
kshurasya dhaaraa nishitaa duratyayaa
durgaM pathastatkavayo vadanti ( 1.3.14)

Arise! Awake! Approach the great and learn. Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, so the wise say—hard to tread and difficult to cross.

Also, see

na me viduH suragaNAH prabhavaM na maharShayaH .
ahamAdirhi devAnAM maharShINA.n cha sarvashaH .. BG 10-2..

Neither the hosts of gods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the gods and sages.

Knowing the Lord is a rare privilege even for gods and the greatest sages. What do I say for humans?

yajvan
19 August 2008, 08:45 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Please dont take this as a challenging note.

In the light of turya there is the all encompassing wisdom. One who has experienced it is almost all knowing ( just like the Lord) and retains a considerable portion of that knowledge even when he drops down.



Namaste Sudarshan
I am not familiar with the measuring stick you choose to use.There is a difference between turīya and turīyatit chetana (sustained turiya).

To think that this turiya is un-accessble to everyone, allows people just stay on this good earth and wait life-after-life for luck to occur. This is not how it is. Turiya is here today, it is the fabric of consciousness and pervades this entire creation. This is the anugraha or grace of the Lord.
To talk of the Divine and to be denied the experience is not why the sages and muni's talk of this state of Being. Their offer is not an academic response.
Why the āgama-s or the Upaniṣad-s ? Just flowery words to bring angst for the sādhu who wishes to experience the Divine? It would be just deaf words.
That is not the intent of the enlightened or the tradition of Masters (guru-parampara) that wish to assist the aspirant to the Divine. These words come from those that are wise, and established in Brahma Sakshtkara.Choose as you like - my goal is not to convenience but to inform the folks that wish to experience the Divine, that it is here. Even in the age of Ignorance, turīya is behind every thought - it is omni-present, there for one and all. People talk of the darkness, talk and talk, just bring the light!


Thus the Infinite knowledge you wish to bring up will be a delight to discuss if you wish. For this (full knowledge) comes with the blessing of the Fullness of Being, of Consciousness.


I wish you well and in hopes you may find this turīya within your sādhana.

this whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment.'...Swami Laksmanjoo


pranams,

TatTvamAsi
19 August 2008, 11:01 PM
Namaste,

Has anyone been able to ask or talk to a person who has siddhis; an advanced yogi or rishi?

I would be most interested in finding out whether the historical events such as the "Churning of the Ocean of Milk" etc. actually took place or are they allegorical stories in the Puranas?

If one is in tUrIyA, one should "know" past, present, and future, including events etc.

The siddhis, I presume, would be distractions from consolidating oneself in turIyA!

Subham.

Sudarshan
20 August 2008, 12:18 AM
Namaste,

Has anyone been able to ask or talk to a person who has siddhis; an advanced yogi or rishi?

I would be most interested in finding out whether the historical events such as the "Churning of the Ocean of Milk" etc. actually took place or are they allegorical stories in the Puranas?

If one is in tUrIyA, one should "know" past, present, and future, including events etc.

The siddhis, I presume, would be distractions from consolidating oneself in turIyA!

Subham.


siddhi means an accomplishment. The real siddhi of turya is to enjoy the core of your being which is constant unwavering bliss. Anything else is a by product. Once you have experienced the highest truth, there is no more interest to enjoy lower siddhis. When you have an ocean of water with you, why would you seek a pot of water? Even if you use them you wont use them with a sense of unnatural. siddhis are a distraction only on the journey to the highest but not after you attained it.

Sudarshan
20 August 2008, 01:41 AM
I am not familiar with the measuring stick you choose to use.There is a difference between turīya and turīyatit chetana (sustained turiya).


There is not much difference between turIya and sustained turIya because once you reach that stage you directly experience the grace. It is experiencing it even occasionally that is the hard part. You talked of some people who experienced it? How do you know you had turIya? In turIya there is really no notion of "my experience". No one can even say "I experienced turIya". The distinction between the experiencer and experience is not there in turIya.

Wherever anyone has said that "I had this experience" it was only in jAgrat, taijasa or prajna ( prajna is not common either).




To think that this turiya is un-accessble to everyone, allows people just stay on this good earth and wait life-after-life for luck to occur. This is not how it is. Turiya is here today, it is the fabric of consciousness and pervades this entire creation. This is the anugraha or grace of the Lord.


turIya is certainly here today. It then means everyone experiences infinite bliss all the time? Why it does not happen is because it lies buried very deep under your thoughts ( gross, subtle and causal). If you can break through all these layers you could access it. That is precisely why I said it is not at all easy. Does God or guru go around conferring that on everyone? They are very choosy because you need to really evolve to that stage.

Is it the God's anugraha that people deny his very existance? Is it also his anugraha that people behave like animals? Is it also his anugraha that people are sent to hell ( and sometines for very long times)? The anugraha of God is directly proportional to the level of our inner purity. God certainly loves all but not while his drama of samsAra is on. There is no visible proof to it - just a casual glance at the world is all is needed - full of disease, misery, sorrow.

Mere theory is not useful. turIya is indeed very separate from you at this level. It can be reached only by great efforts and scriptures warn you of any complacency in this regard.



To talk of the Divine and to be denied the experience is not why the sages and muni's talk of this state of Being. Their offer is not an academic response.


Did you notice that the sages and munis could do very little to grant salvation to others? They could liberate themselves at best because they were really great people. If God so wants he can liberate everyone this instant( even if I am not asking for it) - but that is not what is happening.



Why the āgama-s or the Upaniṣad-s ? Just flowery words to bring angst for the sādhu who wishes to experience the Divine? It would be just deaf words.
That is not the intent of the enlightened or the tradition of Masters (guru-parampara) that wish to assist the aspirant to the Divine. These words come from those that are wise, and established in Brahma Sakshtkara.


Not every sAdhu or the enlightened has managed to cross all the levels of thought. This is why many babas call themselves avatArs and take advantage of the public. There are many saints and sages all of who are at different levels in their evolution. It is the very rare soul who crosses all levels of samsAra and gets absorbed in the highest truth. Even the devatAs do not know the supreme Lord - it is that difficult.

Aitareya AraNyaka describes how a person who does pratIkOpasana, then evolves into a rishi ( who has realization of divinity within his own subtle body) and then becomes a devatA( who sees God in everything) but even these highest devatAs still come frequently under ignorance. How could humans who still have not crossed pratIkOpasana( which includes pratikA of the most subtle kind) suddenly start talking about attaining the stage not even attained by devatAs? We should strive to become a rishi first by undegoing the right sAdhana. That is, we must try to realize the divine energy within our subtle body. Realizing the omnipresent Lord and beyond come only much later. I am talking about what is realistic while mere theory about turIya and all has no use right now.( does not hurt to know about them)




Choose as you like - my goal is not to convenience but to inform the folks that wish to experience the Divine, that it is here. Even in the age of Ignorance, turīya is behind every thought - it is omni-present, there for one and all. People talk of the darkness, talk and talk, just bring the light!


My goal is not to deny the truth of what you said. But we should understand the limitations of the present birth in which we are born without even the basic knowledge of God and yet dream about becoming God-like.

No wonder, Sri Ramanuja says that the very idea of thinking oneself to be the same as the Lord is blaspemous. It is indeed so, at our level. It is this wrong thinking that makes people write things like ' kneeling before God is wrong'. Why do you really kneel before God if your current goal is rise to that level? We do so because at our level, we are still very weak mortals who still look towards diivine help even to accomplish simple tasks.( just quoting theory from scripture does not change anything in practical life). Theory and practise must be go hand in hand.

God can be experienced at many levels. God can be experienced right here in this world. But to know the true nature of God is not such a simple thing. Not even great rishis and devatas know him completely. We should keep this in mind and must work one step at a time. Some people told me that realizing God is as simple as breaking a pot, it happens in an instant. I asked him why then he does not break that pot now. In reality, it is not like breaking a pot. It is about acquiring a series of knowledge about the subtle mysteries of nature a little at time from various gurus and finally God himself. You do your duties correctly and try to practice detachment and the guru will appear on his own.



~Sudarshan

yajvan
20 August 2008, 10:43 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


There is not much difference between turIya and sustained turIya ... ~Sudarshan

Namaste,

Let me ask a simple question: Do you speak from direct personal experience?

The same with siddhi-s - we have had multiple conversations on this matter in the past. Many spoke of siddhi-s being a distraction, or it may in fact derail your sadhana, to 'stay away'. I am not suggesting you are inferring this nor that you even suggested this. But when I asked the audience of participants one simple question 'Do you speak from direct personal experience' then there was silence.

Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger...

pranams

yajvan
20 August 2008, 12:10 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

The siddhis, I presume, would be distractions from consolidating oneself in turIyA!
Subham.

Namaste TTA,
Here is some HDF conversations we had on siddhi-s if you have interest. You can also do an HDF search on 'siddhi' for more if your appetite grows.

1. Worth the pursuit http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=909 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=909)
2. Ajna- The third eye Chakra http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=19591&postcount=5 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=19591&postcount=5)
3. Yoga Sutra-s and Jyotish http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=Samyama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=Samyama)
4. Definitions http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382&highlight=Samyama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382&highlight=Samyama)

pranams

sm78
22 August 2008, 07:00 AM
Well said singhi.

Doing selfless duty brings down the grace of God who will directly instruct you into the deeper mysteries of Yoga just like he did for Arjuna.

This kind of vairAgya is a prerequisite for obtaining any kind of God vision but in our world even swamijis with huge bank balances talk about the ultimate realization of God. Funny.

And if one's thinks a little it seems selfless duty of doing what is necessary in the given space-time (guided by a priori knowledge dharma with common sense and viveka) can indeed be performed under the refuge of the unmanifest only.

For it is not mere talk and audible noise (jagrat/vaikhari),
nor it can be action based on mere intellectual considerations (madhyama), nor it can be action based on mere feelings and even subtle anubhutis (taijasa - prajna/pashyanti).

Ofcourse in this world we mostly spend our life making noise, or thinking this and that or remain immeresed in a bhava samadhi for a while and then proclaim to the world that God has been realized.



shAstras do not say that obtaining the highest experience is a common occurrance. It is rarer than the rarest events. It is one in a billion sort of thing. kAtha upanishad compares the path of yogic sAdhana as akin to walking on a razor's edge.

uttishhThata jaagrata
praapya varaannibodhata .
kshurasya dhaaraa nishitaa duratyayaa
durgaM pathastatkavayo vadanti ( 1.3.14)

Arise! Awake! Approach the great and learn. Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, so the wise say—hard to tread and difficult to cross.

Also, see

na me viduH suragaNAH prabhavaM na maharShayaH .
ahamAdirhi devAnAM maharShINA.n cha sarvashaH .. BG 10-2..

Neither the hosts of gods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the gods and sages.

Knowing the Lord is a rare privilege even for gods and the greatest sages. What do I say for humans?

No God realization is not subject of meditation, sadhanas, online crash courses or some prowess over scriptures etc.

Yet, it must be said that the essential divine nature of our own selves, experience of bhavat kripa etc are not too difficult as well to achieve which should allow oneself to spend the minusclule human birth for well being of others and in service of God and others.

yajvan
22 August 2008, 12:22 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


No God realization is not subject of meditation, sadhanas, online crash courses or some prowess over scriptures etc.

Yet, it must be said that the essential divine nature of our own selves, experience of bhavat kripa etc are not too difficult as well to achieve which should allow oneself to spend the minuscule human birth for well being of others and in service of God and others.

Namaste singhi,
Well said. This is no 'minute rice' that becomes enlightenment. And our own divine nature is something one may need to be re-introduced to ( these days). It is not magic, or hidden in such a way that He does not want you to experience your own nature, anuttara, again and come home.

That is, there is no premiere club that only allows certain people to experience this level of Being.

Hence this is the gift of the wise. to offer insights , techniques and the like that allows that light to be seen again.

pranams

sm78
25 August 2008, 05:16 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Namaste singhi,
Well said. This is no 'minute rice' that becomes enlightenment. And our own divine nature is something one may need to be re-introduced to ( these days). It is not magic, or hidden in such a way that He does not want you to experience your own nature, anuttara, again and come home.

That is, there is no premiere club that only allows certain people to experience this level of Being.

Hence this is the gift of the wise. to offer insights , techniques and the like that allows that light to be seen again.

pranams

Namaste Yajvan,

It is admitted that human birth is something quite extraoridinary in that it allows oneself the freedom to think and act in ways that has not been pre-set by nature. None of the present mamalia and animals outside mamalia seem to enjoy this freedom (or to the level we do). I hope this is not an extraordinary claim. God realization indeed on this earth seems essentially human.

So as a jiva, it seems, we are already in a premiere club. So unless you don't believe this (the previledge to be born as a human), what is the solid reason to not accept that as humans we cannot have a premiere club amongst us?

I, like you, do not believe that people need to be reminded again and again they are ordinary and that greatness is quite beyond them and rests with only a few previledged by birth and education. Such attitude is spiteful and comes from a self-preservation mentality. At the sametime, it would be not be accurate to claim, God realization as per arya shastra is quite easy and attainable goal of one human birth. Sudarshan's quote of Lord Krishna own words should be believed in this regard if one swears by other things he say.

Indeed many of us feel the divine connection in us and might want to cherish that spiritual experience we have had and hope for it to shine again in us, but, it might be not be most accurate to call that experience Turiya. That is all.

I must also add, the above is my way of looking, the way I was developed and continue to develop. I can argue on why the 'state of restful alertness', 'state of expanding conciousness', 'belonging to everything' etc are not turiya but belong to taijasa (culminating in vishva rupa darshana), but that argument will essentially satisfy someone of similar temparment as mine and its best to leave this disagreement as a disagreement.

yajvan
25 August 2008, 06:20 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste singhi & thank you for your reply.

I respect your views and see your point. Let me see if I can offer a few ideas - not to convince, but to explain, or offer a POV for one's consideration. First note that the conversation was predicated a few posts ago on turīya being somewhat special or unique. I chose to address that point in my posts. I agree with your assessment that ...

that spiritual experience we have had and hope for it to shine again in us, but, it might be not be most accurate to call that experience Turiya. That is all.... Yes I see how that could be as there are many ways to experience the Divine. What my inquiry has been: is there is a method to experience the Divine if one chooses to do so? Not a random experience that occurs by happenstance but is self initiated. This question has brought me to the doorsteps of turīya again and again i.e. a vehicle to the Divine or the experience thereof. Are there other ways and venues? Are there other words one can use to describe this path to the Divine? Sure.

This is from my experience, teachings, and study of the śhastra-s. If there are other ways, I am encouraged to know them; please advise so I too can understand them, I am open to learn.

Regarding a premiere club. Yes, I see your point on jīva. My notion was to suggest no one person need to walk around with a puffed-up chest and suggest 'it is only I, or those from my varṇa that can experience or have access to this turīya'. My view is this experience is open to all. I think we both agree.

Regarding the following:

I can argue on why the 'state of restful alertness', 'state of expanding consciousness', 'belonging to everything' etc are not turiya but belong to taijasa (culminating in vishva rupa darshana), but that argument will essentially satisfy someone of similar temperament as mine and its best to leave this disagreement as a disagreement
The words I use are offered to help those new to this line of thinking. A more robust look at this turīya is offered as a new HDF post
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312 and I welcome your input, value-add and your observations.

That said if you care to offer your POV, please do, I think we can do it in a civil manner and avoid jalpa. For me, HDF has had plenty of heated debates. While some may find it useful, I think they are less so. People can have differing opinions AND still understand the other individual's POV yet not be required to 'convert'. So, I welcome your insights if you choose to pursue the conversation.

You also mention
it would be not be accurate to claim God realization as per arya shastra is quite easy and attainable goal of one human birth
Yes, I agree. Yet one would ask , well how many births then? Who can say? No one can say except Him. When it comes to His grace, it may be one lifetime, or 1000 lifetimes.

From my POV it is a good time to start one's progress to Brahma Sakshtkara. The notion for me is starting, not leaving it to chance. This POV is offered by Vasiṣṭha-ji as self effort. This can be found in Chapt 2, śloka-s 4 & 5 , in the Yoga Vasiṣṭha. 'Self Effort has two catagories' says Vasiṣṭha-ji, 'that of past births and that of this birth'. He concludes this thought by saying 'Fate is none other then the self-effort of a past incarnation'.
Pending one's past development this (mokśa) could occur with one word from the guru, or it may take life-after-life. Yet to talk of it, practice,and understand it seems valuable to me.
How so? what are the components to kevalya? Do we know is turīya and turīyātīta part of the travel to it? If yes lets understand it more, if no, lets understand it. Are there other ways, methods and can one speak from their personal experiences?

What is most beneficial for the sādhu that brings sattā (Being) to the aspirant? What are the ways to unfold the Divine in his/her daily life? This is how I think about it. We know there are many routes.

I am at point in my life where the academics of mokśa is interesting, yet personal experiences are extremely valuable. I am open and eager to listen to all that can bring the richness of knowledge and experience to the conversation.

pranams

Sagefrakrobatik
28 August 2008, 03:44 AM
turIya is certainly here today. It then means everyone experiences infinite bliss all the time? Why it does not happen is because it lies buried very deep under your thoughts ( gross, subtle and causal). If you can break through all these layers you could access it. That is precisely why I said it is not at all easy. Does God or guru go around conferring that on everyone? They are very choosy because you need to really evolve to that stage.

No wonder, Sri Ramanuja says that the very idea of thinking oneself to be the same as the Lord is blaspemous. It is indeed so, at our level. It is this wrong thinking that makes people write things like ' kneeling before God is wrong'. Why do you really kneel before God if your current goal is rise to that level? We do so because at our level, we are still very weak mortals who still look towards diivine help even to accomplish simple tasks.( just quoting theory from scripture does not change anything in practical life). Theory and practise must be go hand in hand.

God can be experienced at many levels. God can be experienced right here in this world. But to know the true nature of God is not such a simple thing. Not even great rishis and devatas know him completely. We should keep this in mind and must work one step at a time.


~Sudarshan

I wonder if we can extrapolate comparisons between this and Christianity. In Christianity Man was originally made in the Image of God, so I guess we could say he had acess to that Turiya or God-consciousness is what you guys seem to be talking about. Unitl man fell due to original sin Now man tries to experience God and in christianity that experience is facillitated by coming to Christ. It is interesting to not that throughout the Srimad Bhagavtam i see the phrase twice-born and in the New Testmant Jesus says that you must be born again. Just some thoughts. Also if Turiya is as you say it is you might be interested in checking out RV (Remote Viewing);

http://http://www.learnrv.com/faqs.cfm#whatrv