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Arvind Sivaraman
26 October 2007, 03:33 AM
Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste.

Sringeri Jagadguru Speaks :

Ups and downs are natural in human life.Even persons leading a very comfortable life will at times encounter difficulties.True,Dharmaraja was an emperor.Did he not have to undergo vanavasa (life in forest)?

However wealthy one may be,some time or other one may be constrained to lose everything.Likewise,even the most courageous man will occasionally be gripped by fear.

Only those who remain steady under such trying circumstances and take the right decision,using their discretion,are intelligent.But many lose their grit under tribulations and become rude.They even consider suicide.

It is absolutely wrong.Did not people like Yudhistra,Nala and Rama face such difficulties?Everyone has to suffer Prarabdha(Ordained Fate.)

Nobody can say that one will always encounter hardships.One must have the faith that the bad period will be over and good days will dawn.Such persons are definitely bound to prosper.

satay
26 October 2007, 11:40 AM
namaskar,
what's your own opinion on the text you posted ?

Eastern Mind
26 October 2007, 12:01 PM
This is advice to be taken to heart. However, out in the world, it is often difficult to heed, especially for those souls not well grounded in some basic tenets of a religion, or just used to it from living in a war torn country for example. During times of tragedy, personal pain, depression, natural disasters, etc. it becomes far more difficult to maintain a steadfast nature. As the old saying goes, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going". Personally, I think we really never know our own reaction until something happens, and we actually have to face it. Its fine to intellectualise "Oh, yeah, I could handle that." But that's purely intellectual, bordering on pomposity. I recall speaking with a pastor (he was also a baseball coach, that's how I knew him, as I never had much to do with Christians) who was also a volunteer ambulance driver. He was called one day to a horrific head-on collision involving several people, and horrific death.Two other ambulances, and at least a dozen police officers were on the scene. He told me that of all the people there, he was the only one able to start cleaning up the limbs and pieces of the dead. All the police, the other ambulance people etc, even though they had had intellectual and mock emotional training, just couldn't handle it. Too much. So I am pondering: "What was it in this fellow to be able to do it? Was it his faith? Or was it just his innate nature?" Would I myself be able to do what he did? The answer to that is obvious. I don't know. Until I actually had the experience, I don't know. Hopefully, I'll never know. Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
26 October 2007, 01:20 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~


Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Sringeri Jagadguru Speaks :

Ups and downs are natural in human life.Even persons leading a very comfortable life will at times encounter difficulties.True,Dharmaraja was an emperor.Did he not have to undergo vanavasa (life in forest)?

Namaste,
My teacher has said many times, 'any house can stand in good weather.'

It's what one does in terms of picking oneself up , dusting off the dirt and continuing, or starting again.

I think of two people and their orientation:

I have not failed... I just found 10,000 ways that won't work - Thomas Edison the inventor

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional- His Holiness the Dalai Lama


pranams

Arvind Sivaraman
26 October 2007, 11:05 PM
namaskar,
what's your own opinion on the text you posted ?

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Satay.

There is a sloka in Valmiki Sundarakandam.
"Priyannasambhave Dhukkam Apriya Dhadhikam Bhayam
Thabyam hi ye Viyujyenthe Namastesham Mahatmanam"

It means :
When Happiness comes ones mind is filled with joy,when unhappiness comes ones mind is filled with sorrow.Godess Sita Devi says I bow to those saints who consider Hapiness and Sorrow as Samam.(Equal).

Thus one should get inspired by such self-realised souls and try to become one with the grace of the Almighty and Guru.

satay
27 October 2007, 12:46 AM
namaskar arvind,


Thus one should get inspired by such self-realised souls and try to become one with the grace of the Almighty and Guru.

Basically you answered my question with another quote.
From the OP, what is your opinion on sat guru's commentary that you posted? For example, he says


It is absolutely wrong.Did not people like Yudhistra,Nala and Rama face such difficulties?Everyone has to suffer Prarabdha(Ordained Fate.)


What is your opinion on people thinking about suicide? What causes people to become suicidal? Is it just 'having to face difficulties' or do you think there is something different chemically in the brain that causes the thoughts of suicide?

What was Lord Rama's prarabdha karma that he was facing difficulties?

It would be nice if you could give your opinion on the posts instead of just cutting and pasting.

Arvind Sivaraman
27 October 2007, 01:17 AM
namaskar arvind,



Basically you answered my question with another quote.
From the OP, what is your opinion on sat guru's commentary that you posted? For example, he says



What is your opinion on people thinking about suicide? What causes people to become suicidal? Is it just 'having to face difficulties' or do you think there is something different chemically in the brain that causes the thoughts of suicide?

What was Lord Rama's prarabdha karma that he was facing difficulties?

It would be nice if you could give your opinion on the posts instead of just cutting and pasting.

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Satay.

1)It is the weak minded people who think of commiting suicide.
In Palimistry according to "Cheiro" if the line of head droops too down to the bottom of the Hand then it indicates a suicidal tendency.
Why the line of Head is dropping too down the hand is something which our shastras say as Prarabhda Karma.(The sins committed in many past births.)
2)Lord Rama's father King Dasaratha had a curse that at the time of King Dasaratha's departure his son should not be on his side.
This is one of the sufferring which Lord Rama had to undergo.

Pl Note : I appreciate your comments that I should give my opinion.
If there are any queries or clarifications I shall certainly do the needful.

sm78
27 October 2007, 06:02 AM
Thanks Arvind for presenting Sringeri Mahaswami's viewpoints. However a brief background on these might help, like on what occations did the jagatguru mention these stories. Are you talking about present acharya (sri bharati tirtha mahaswami) or one of his illustrious predecessors ?? Are these already available in English somewhere ??

yajvan
27 October 2007, 07:52 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Thanks Arvind for presenting Sringeri Mahaswami's viewpoints. However a brief background on these might help, like on what occations did the jagatguru mention these stories. Are you talking about present acharya (sri bharati tirtha mahaswami) or one of his illustrious predecessors ?? Are these already available in English somewhere ??


Namaste Arvind,
I concur with satay and singhi (sm78),

We thank you for your posts... we also think you are very bright and look to your insights on how the wisdom affects you and influences you or sould be applied to society.

What reasoning do you apply to say 'this is wise information , I must past this on to HDF' ? would also be interesting.

As singhi suggests - what occasions did guru-ji mention these stories?

Did any one offer questions to go deeper or wider?
When you first heard this wisdom , what did you think ? how did you feel?
Have you found the same parallel wisdom in the Upanisads or current reading?
what resonated in you to insure you used this info or considered it?
Or what other insights did this trigger?I guess what we are looking for is your brilliance and insights. You are a key contributor on HDF and we look to your puissant thoughts.

pranams,

Eastern Mind
27 October 2007, 08:53 AM
Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Satay.

1)It is the weak minded people who think of commiting suicide.
In Palimistry according to "Cheiro" if the line of head droops too down to the bottom of the Hand then it indicates a suicidal tendency.
Why the line of Head is dropping too down the hand is something which our shastras say as Prarabhda Karma.(The sins committed in many past births.)



My apologies for offering a different viewpoint. I think this is a simplistic view of suicide. Suicide is a troubling problem in western society at least. I'm not sure of the suicide rates in the east, but my suspicions would be that the data is mostly hidden. Certainly in the west it is problematic. It is highest amongst gay youth, BTW. I've seen it first hand also amongst victims of bullying. Rather than seek revenge (which I would consider weak-minded) the person feels at a complete loss at a hopeless situation. Often the suicidal person at least on the outside seems to be very strong-minded, and the act comes as a total surprise to the people around. "last person I'd expect to do that' comments. Suicidal tendencies are compounded by lack of sleep, poor diet, drug use, etc. What we need is more tolerance, so bullying doesn't occur, and a general awareness of the signs leading to suicide so we can all help be preventers in some small way. Aum Namasivaya

atanu
27 October 2007, 10:51 AM
----- Often the suicidal person at least on the outside seems to be very strong-minded, ----



Namaste,

I feel the same way. In most cases, suicide is not for the weak. In any case, it may happen when the threshold of fear of death and desire for life both are overcome, catalysed by agony of a situation.


But suicide is definitely a mistake. The subtle body will have more trouble, loaded with grudge and having no body to act out some problems. This subtle body may also begin to torment other people out of spite? And possibly bullies are born of such discontented souls.

Om

Eastern Mind
27 October 2007, 11:09 AM
Namaste,

I feel the same way. In most cases, suicide is not for the weak. In any case, it may happen when the threshold of fear of death and desire for life both are overcome, catalysed by agony of a situation.


But suicide is definitely a mistake. The subtle body will have more trouble, loaded with grudge and having no body to act out some problems. This subtle body may also begin to torment other people out of spite? And possibly bullies are born of such discontented souls.

Om

Atanu: very insightful post. Yes, we are taught that suicide is a mistake. My understanding of karma would indicate one would have to face the same or very similar troubles again, until it is overcome. Interesting thoughts on the subtle bodies as well. I do believe that subtle bodies can torment. I think we underestimate them sometimes. For example, alcoholism weakens the defenses, and subtle body former alcoholics can use the current physical body of an alcoholic to 'live' out their own alcoholism.
Not all suicides are out of grudge, though. Some are grudging themselves, their own lack of willpower, and that is who they're fed up with, enough to contemplate suicide.
It would also seem sensible karma wise that bullies are reborn as victims, and vice versa. I wonder how that vicious cycle ends. Time, I guess.
Thanks again for the excellent insight.
I did research suicide on the net, and it is highest in eastern bloc countries generally, such as Austria, and Lithuania where atheism is a prevalent belief, and definitely lowest in Islamic countries, although I suspect the data on that. Remember the Iranian president declaring there are no gays in Iran. (The suicide research was according to WHO) Aum Namasivaya

atanu
27 October 2007, 12:22 PM
-----and definitely lowest in Islamic countries, although I suspect the data on that. ---(The suicide research was according to WHO) Aum Namasivaya

Namaste Eastern Mind,

Substantial chunk of suicide bombers, however.

hehe.

Om

yajvan
27 October 2007, 12:45 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste,

In most cases, suicide is not for the weak. In any case, it may happen when the threshold of fear of death and desire for life both are overcome, catalysed by agony of a situation.

But suicide is definitely a mistake.

Namste EM and atanu,
In the USA there's even a Suicide Prevention Week. Canada's suicide, EM has historically been similar to or slightly higher (per capita) than that of the United States. About 3800 suicides are recorded in Canada each year.

I agree , if one dies abruptly and does not finish their allotted breaths,
then they will be back anyway. Yet this seems a cold way of looking at it.
For me, my level of compassion has increased 100 fold for these folks.
As one must think how much grief + maya + angst and disturbance is one experiencing to end ones life in a horrific manner. I can't even get a flu shot without crying about it, let alone do a swan dive off a bridge...

Two points for your consideration and response...


For those that are 'hard nosed' on ones fate and karma could argue, the day of ones demise is set and if it comes by suicide or natural causes the number of breaths taken are already metered out, you do not have a say , not one more or one less breath will be given to you. Any opinions on this?
Is there part of society that is more prone to this behaviour then others? the data below suggests there could be. Your opinion on this would be of interest.Some data for your consideration - mostly USA centric

Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in the United States
Approximately 811,000 Americans attempt suicide each year yet ~ 30,000 are completed.
Suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death among 15 to 24 year olds.
The elderly make up 12 percent of the population, but comprise 16 percent of all suicides.Statistically significant rates of suicide for:
• White male physicians.
• Black male guards (including supervisors, crossing guards, police, protective service occupations, but not correctional institution occupations).
• White female painters, sculptors, craft-artists and artist printmakers.

Women attempt suicide three times as frequently as men.
Another study found that only laborers and the unemployed had significantly higher risks.
On the other hand, he found "dramatic" differences for suicide among the industries where people work. At highest risk were those in mining, business and repair services, wholesale and retail trade and construction. Around the world ( not much info for India)


Canada's suicide -about 3800 suicides are recorded
countries with the highest suicide rates include
Latvia (42.5 suicides per 100,000 people),
Lithuania (42.1)
Estonia (38.2)
Russia (37.8), and Hungary (35.9)
Countries with the lowest suicide rates include:
Guatemala (0.5),
Philippines (0.5),
Albania (1.4),
Dominican Republic (2.1),
Armenia (2.3)source: http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/facenc1.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/82132.php
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/81868.php

Znanna
27 October 2007, 02:09 PM
Namaste,

This is an interesting topic to consider, today. One of my long time friends (30 + years) committed suicide on his wife's (also 30 + year friend) birthday this past September. As Samhain approaches and the edge between night and day are blurred, I pray for/with the dearly departed (DD). My benefactress, Inanna, ventures into the netherworlds and returns, you see ...

Death is perhaps one of the most interesting propositions we face, I think, as humans (if that's what we are, heh). My friend, I think he sought to free himself *and* his wife somehow; their sons were grown and successful, gaining the success that he'd never thought he had. She was the strong one, always was.

The notion of sacrifice, the impermanent death of the Christ (as depicted in the tarot card "The Hanged Man") ... I think that suicide begs this release.

Is it not suicide (of sorts?) to throw oneSelves at Kali's feet? This is a form of Shiva I don't see discussed often. Yet the notion of the ultimate Release, of "losing one's head" ... is that not a suicidal thought?

The rational mind resists such thought, and for good reason. Without "self-preservation" we would perish as a species. However this same inbred instinct defies the possibility of some of those states of nonSelf which would be found, otherwise.



R.I.P.

ZN

Arvind Sivaraman
28 October 2007, 11:14 PM
Thanks Arvind for presenting Sringeri Mahaswami's viewpoints. However a brief background on these might help, like on what occations did the jagatguru mention these stories. Are you talking about present acharya (sri bharati tirtha mahaswami) or one of his illustrious predecessors ?? Are these already available in English somewhere ??


Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Singhi Kaya.

1)I do not know the background as to on what occassions the Jagadguru has mentioned these moral stories.
2)Yes,I am talking about the present acharya His Holiness Sri Bharathi Tirtha Mahaswamiji.
3)Yes,It is available in English in a monthly book release called "Tattvaloka".