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Arvind Sivaraman
06 December 2007, 01:50 AM
Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste.

May I know, what is the difference between Moksha and Chiranjeevi?
Any thoughts are welcome.

sarabhanga
06 December 2007, 04:30 AM
Namaste Arvind,

moksha is release from worldly existence or from transmigration, and cirajIvikA is a long life.

A cirajIvin is long lived or existing from long ago, certainly not exempt from worldly existence, but perhaps released from death or from subsequent rebirth, and thus also a mokshin.

moksha indicates freedom from birth, while cirajIva indicates freedom from death; although a mokshin and a cirajIvin may be indistinguishable.

yajvan
06 December 2007, 07:14 AM
Namaste Arvind,
moksha is release from worldly existence or from transmigration, and cirajIvikA is a long life.

A cirajIvin is long lived or existing from long ago, certainly not exempt from worldly existence, but perhaps released from death or from subsequent rebirth, and thus also a mokshin.

moksha indicates freedom from birth, while cirajIva indicates freedom from death; although a mokshin and a cirajIvin may be indistinguishable.


Namaste
A complimentry way one may look at this moksha मोक्ष the liberation or release from rebirth cycle can be viewed in the following way: Moha is 'to delude' + kshaya or a 'reduction' or 'astringent' = moksha is the extinction of delusion. It is though the extinction of delusion that liberation occurs.

cirajIvikA as sarabhanga outlines is lasting a long time. This cira चिर is lasting along time , existing from ancient times. And we know jiva जीव is the individual living , existing , being alive.

So a question one can ask how are these related? What is the longest time one can think of? Eternity. and what is the longest life? Immortality.

The 'delusion' some have is that Immortality is living the longest life in the body - where perhaps it is attaining moksha and attaining Being, for eternity.


...just a thought.


pranams,

atanu
06 December 2007, 09:13 AM
Moreover,

Moksha indicates ignorance and its removal. Chiranjeevi, on the other hand, in true sense, could never be under the influence of ignorance.



Om

Arvind Sivaraman
06 December 2007, 10:11 PM
Namaste
A complimentry way one may look at this moksha मोक्ष the liberation or release from rebirth cycle can be viewed in the following way: Moha is 'to delude' + kshaya or a 'reduction' or 'astringent' = moksha is the extinction of delusion. It is though the extinction of delusion that liberation occurs.

cirajIvikA as sarabhanga outlines is lasting a long time. This cira चिर is lasting along time , existing from ancient times. And we know jiva जीव is the individual living , existing , being alive.

So a question one can ask how are these related? What is the longest time one can think of? Eternity. and what is the longest life? Immortality.

The 'delusion' some have is that Immortality is living the longest life in the body - where perhaps it is attaining moksha and attaining Being, for eternity.


...just a thought.


pranams,

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Sarabhanga and Yajvan,
1)What would be the means of attaining Moksha?
2)What would be the means of attainig Chiranjeevi?
3)Why is it mentioned in the Srimad Bhagawatham that Gajendra gets Moksha and why not become a Chiranjeevi?(As in the case of Hanuman.)
4)On what basis is it arrived that the below mentioned are Chiranjeevis.


The List of Chiranjeevis


Ashwatama -- son of teacher Drona

Bali

Vyasa -- the sage who wrote the Mahabharat epic

Hanuman -- the Monkey faced son of Wind God Vayu

Vibhishana -- the brother of Ravana and an embassodor of Lord Ramachandra

Kripacharya -- the Brahmin of Hastinapur who taught the Pandavas and the Kauravas

Parashurama -- an avatar of Lord Vishnu, Rama with an axe

saidevo
06 December 2007, 10:27 PM
The List of Chiranjeevis


Ashwatama -- son of teacher Drona

Bali

Vyasa -- the sage who wrote the Mahabharat epic

Hanuman -- the Monkey faced son of Wind God Vayu

Vibhishana -- the brother of Ravana and an embassodor of Lord Ramachandra

Kripacharya -- the Brahmin of Hastinapur who taught the Pandavas and the Kauravas

Parashurama -- an avatar of Lord Vishnu, Rama with an axe



You have omitted to mention Markendaya.

sarabhanga
07 December 2007, 12:48 AM
The perfect cirajIvin is immortal and, since the lower three worlds do not survive dissolution, the cirajIvin (who cannot die) dwells in the turIya realm of maharloka (the middle region), which is inhabited by the saptaRSi.

The mokshin has transcended rebirth, ascending to the seventh heaven of satyaloka (the abode of truth), from which place there is no return.

And ciraMjIva may be attained by mImAMsA, vaisheSika, and sAMkhya; while moksha may be attained by vedAnta, nyAya, and yoga.

atanu
09 December 2007, 05:13 AM
Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Sarabhanga and Yajvan,
1)What would be the means of attaining Moksha?
2)What would be the means of attainig Chiranjeevi?
3)Why is it mentioned in the Srimad Bhagawatham that Gajendra gets Moksha and why not become a Chiranjeevi?(As in the case of Hanuman.)
4)On what basis is it arrived that the below mentioned are Chiranjeevis.


----



Namaskar Arvind,


Though the query is not directed at me, I thought I would enter a second time, un-invited. Sorry for that.


Chiranjeevi does mean a long living being (as all have pointed out). But the crux is that they are directly from the Lord (or from rishis) for a specific purpose and for a specific period -- generally to take part in the drama (with Lord) as some character -- heroic or evil, for the welfare of all.


On the other hand, all beings are eventually entitled to Moksha. And some may act as Chiranjeevi's thereafter.


Did Hanuman attain Moksha or was born a Chiranjeevi? Who is Shirdi Sai? a Chiranjeevi or a Mokshin or Lord?


Om

Arvind Sivaraman
09 December 2007, 10:04 PM
Namaskar Arvind,



Though the query is not directed at me, I thought I would enter a second time, un-invited. Sorry for that.


Chiranjeevi does mean a long living being (as all have pointed out). But the crux is that they are directly from the Lord (or from rishis) for a specific purpose and for a specific period -- generally to take part in the drama (with Lord) as some character -- heroic or evil, for the welfare of all.


On the other hand, all beings are eventually entitled to Moksha. And some may act as Chiranjeevi's thereafter.


Did Hanuman attain Moksha or was born a Chiranjeevi? Who is Shirdi Sai? a Chiranjeevi or a Mokshin or Lord?



Om


Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Atanu.
Informative Post.Thanks for the insight provided.

yajvan
09 December 2007, 10:42 PM
Om Shirdi Sai Ram.


The List of Chiranjeevis


Ashwatama -- son of teacher Drona

Bali

Vyasa -- the sage who wrote the Mahabharat epic

Hanuman -- the Monkey faced son of Wind God Vayu

Vibhishana -- the brother of Ravana and an embassodor of Lord Ramachandra

Kripacharya -- the Brahmin of Hastinapur who taught the Pandavas and the Kauravas

Parashurama -- an avatar of Lord Vishnu, Rama with an axe

Namaste,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8d/Vyasa.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vyasa.jpg)

Vyasa that is mentioned is Veda Vyasa.
His name is Krsna Dwaipayana, son of Parasara muni, a rishi of the Veda, and in the lineage of Vasistha. Parasara is also the cornerstone of Jyotish. Krsna Dwaipayana's mother is none other then Satyavati.

This word vyasa or व्यास = arranger , compiler , severing , separation , division ; Dwaipanyana-ji organized the Vedas accordingly, so he is a vyasa.

He also wrote the epic , the Mahabharata, not to mention 18 Puranas.
Dwaipanyana-ji is also considered Badarayana, the author of the Brahma Sutras.

He is the exponent of the Divine and mankind combined.

pranams,

sarabhanga
10 December 2007, 03:11 AM
Namaste,

A cirañjIvI (ciraMjIvI, cirajIvI) is long-lived or eternal, and the term is applied to viSNu, and to the saptaRSi, and especially those of the sAvarNi manvantaram (strictly the eighth manvantaram, which is to come; but generally indicating all future manvantarANi), and also to mArkaNDeya RSi.

The saptaRSi of the (eighth) sAvarNi manvantaram will be: vAsiSTha vyAsa, bhAradvAja ashvatthAma, gautama kRpAcArya, bhArgava rAma, vaishvAmitra gAlava, Atreya dIptimAn, and kAshyapa ruru.

But the title cirañjIvI is also given to a popular group of seven immortals, including: vyAsa, ashvatthAma, kRpAcArya, parashu rAma, vibhISaNa, hanumAn, and bali.

Añjaneya was born from cira añjanA, and so hanumAn is cirAñjaneya. ;)

añjanam refers to an equivocal expression, a double entendre or pun; and añjana and jyeSThA (the ancient shakti of the south-west, the realm of nirRti and nAgAH) are both names used to indicate a small house-lizard.

And bali is the name of indra in the sAvarNi manvantaram.

There is much punning and word-play in the tale of Añjaneya, and the cirañjIvI hanumAn (the prANAtman or vital-breath) is a favorite rhetorical device. hanumAn represents the pañcaprANa, the pañcabhUta, and the immortal pañcAkshara; hanumAn delivers the punch-line, and indeed, hanumAn is the pañca itself, the ancient pAshupatAstra of shiva. :)

The mythic assemblage of seven cirañjIvinaH is obviously based on the seven sAvarNi RSayaH, but with a southern slant (including hanumAn and vibhISaNa, and rAma in his axe-wielding mode).

In the sense that cirañjIvI is applied to viSNu, it is synonymous with avatAra (this seems to be the sense Atanu has taken), and thus any notion of attaining moksha is inappropriate, and the avatAra is born cirañjIvI. In other cases, however, the title refers particularly to the saptaRSi, and other immortalized mortals who are also expected to reappear (from the clouds, or from a cave in the himalaya) in a subsequent age.

In general, a cirañjIvI RSi has considered the veda with mImAMsA and sAMkhya, while a mokshI siddha has considered the AtmA with vedAnta and yoga.

And then there are the cirañjIvI siddhAH who dwell as virtual immortals in bhuvarloka by their own siddhi (generally attained with tantra, which is heavily influenced by the alchemical logic of vaisheSika); although, unlike the RSayaH of maharloka, they do not live beyond the end of a kalpa.

At the conclusion of each kalpa, such aerial cirañjIvI will either have moksha and finally ascend to brahmaloka, or their souls will again be returned to the earth of mRtyuloka (i.e. bhUloka, the mortal realm) during the next kalpa. This is the pattern for last judgment, and mortal existence itself is the archetype for descent to hell.

And the best prescription for immediate moksha (avoiding the purgatory of bhuvarloka, and the dualistic risk of final judgment) is a perfect blend of vedAnta, yoga, and nyAya, which all boils down to jñAna yoga (http://www.geocities.com/sarabhanga/jnana.html) . :)

Arvind Sivaraman
10 December 2007, 04:04 AM
And the best prescription for immediate moksha (avoiding the purgatory of bhuvarloka, and the dualistic risk of final judgment) is a perfect blend of vedAnta, yoga, and nyAya, which all boils down to jñAna yoga (http://www.geocities.com/sarabhanga/jnana.html) . :)[/quote]

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Srabhanga.
It was informative reading.
Though I am not well versed with Bhagavad Gita, I was given to understand that one may attain moksha (attain the Lotus feet of Lord Krishna) by following any one of the Yogas.
1)Karma Yoga
2)Raja Yoga
3)Bhakti Yoga
4)Jnana Yoga.

Then how does Vedanta,Yoga and Nyaya boils down only to Jnana Yoga?

sarabhanga
10 December 2007, 06:05 AM
Namaste Arvind,

I have only considered jñAna as the essence of the best prescription, and have not suggested that other approaches will not (eventually) lead to moksha.

But if immediate moksha is the goal, then the bhagavadgItA suggests the following conditions (which provide a fundamental description of jñAna yoga):

sparshAnkRtvA bahirbAhyAMshcakshushcaivAntare bhruvoH |
prANApAnau samau kRtvA nAsAbhyantaracAriNau ||5.27||
yatendriyamanobuddhirmunirmokshaparAyaNaH |
vigatecchAbhayakrodho yaH sadA mukta eva saH ||5.28||

“Shutting out all thoughts of external enjoyments, with the gaze fixed on the space between the eye-brows, having regulated the prANa and the apAna breaths flowing within the nostrils, he who has brought his senses, mind, and intellect, under control, intent on moksha and free from desire, fear, and anger, such a contemplative soul is ever mukta.”

Arjuna
23 April 2008, 07:49 PM
sparshAnkRtvA bahirbAhyAMshcakshushcaivAntare bhruvoH |
prANApAnau samau kRtvA nAsAbhyantaracAriNau ||5.27||
yatendriyamanobuddhirmunirmokshaparAyaNaH |
vigatecchAbhayakrodho yaH sadA mukta eva saH ||5.28||

“Shutting out all thoughts of external enjoyments, with the gaze fixed on the space between the eye-brows, having regulated the prANa and the apAna breaths flowing within the nostrils, he who has brought his senses, mind, and intellect, under control, intent on moksha and free from desire, fear, and anger, such a contemplative soul is ever mukta.”

Namaste Sarabhanga.

The word "sparshAn" is to be translated as "perceptions". These shlokas describe a path to nimIlana-samAdhi, in which no outer world is perceived.
In a contrast to this, Agamic texts usually put stress on unmIlana-samAdhi, which is kind of more natural path.

TGW
27 July 2008, 05:55 AM
Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste Sarabhanga and Yajvan,
1)What would be the means of attaining Moksha?

I too, am interested in the question of Moksha and if you don't mind, I would like to share my thoughts here. :)

I think realisation or Moksha is nothing but constant awareness of the conciousness in a person by that person. So the means would be to try and constantly be aware of a higher principle inside oneself that is pure awareness. When one is able to seperate constantly and effortlessly the awareness from the mind, intellect and ego, I think that person has attained Moksha or liberation.

TatTvamAsi
27 July 2008, 01:23 PM
Hmm.. I was under a Chiranjeevin is just a "long-lived" person, NOT immortal! A person who has attained moksha is free from death and rebirth. However a chiranjeevin may live a relatively long existence, but is not free from death/rebirth.