PDA

View Full Version : The truth



skhandelwal
08 December 2007, 07:39 AM
Everything spoken or written..basically communicated through a medium, we interpret it through our ignorance. When it passes through our our deceiving mind, it becomes filtered. When one is to purity him/herself, he can truly view the truth, but then, how is one to know weather it is true or lie? What if our reasoning ends up being absurd? What if our faith ends up being hollow? How is one to escape from such...? This is a very difficult question. I am basically asking, how do we know we are right.

yajvan
08 December 2007, 12:28 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Everything spoken or written..basically communicated through a medium, we interpret it through our ignorance. When it passes through our our deceiving mind, it becomes filtered. When one is to purity him/herself, he can truly view the truth, but then, how is one to know weather it is true or lie? What if our reasoning ends up being absurd? What if our faith ends up being hollow? How is one to escape from such...? This is a very difficult question. I am basically asking, how do we know we are right.

Namaste skhandelwal,
regarding, how do we know we are right?

That all depends on the amount of knowledge one possesses. To be right, infers right thinking and right actions.
So we are concerned with actions here - the action of thinking, doing, behaviors ( another form of acting), selecting, all that.

So the deal is, knowledge is for action, action is for doing and accomplishing, which brings some level of accomplishment or some level of fulfillment.

Limited knowledge gives limited actions, which in turn gives limited levels of accomplishment. So the answer to your question resides in knowledge:

Erroneous knowledge will give erroneous results
Limited Knowledge - gives results , yet limited
Full Knowledge - gives actions that are in accord with the laws of nature without effort. One is aligned to the Dharma of the universe, and 'the right' happens spontaneously.So what does one do till an individual has full knowledge ( this is not book knowledge)? We do the best we can with the information/knowledge and skills we possess today. There is a whole other conversation we can have on śreyas and preyas (higher values and earthly values), but lets not go here just yet.

We find out what is right and wrong and act accordingly - these are social norms, but also spiritual guidelines ( Yama and Niyama, etc) and reading the shastras, etc; We look to others for help usually our elders and or the 'enlightened' in our society. That is we work on ourselves IMHO.

We improve our condition to form reasonable POV's, but are open to new wisdom and knowledge as it becomes available.

If this line of thinking is of interest to you, consider these HDF conversations:

1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1531&highlight=knowledge+structured
2. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1489


pranams,

saidevo
08 December 2007, 10:17 PM
Namaste skhandelwal.


Everything spoken or written..basically communicated through a medium, we interpret it through our ignorance. When it passes through our our deceiving mind, it becomes filtered. When one is to purity him/herself, he can truly view the truth, but then, how is one to know weather it is true or lie? What if our reasoning ends up being absurd? What if our faith ends up being hollow? How is one to escape from such...? This is a very difficult question. I am basically asking, how do we know we are right.

Our minds are deceiving because it is colored by our past impressions ('vAsanA's). Whereas the mind of sages and rishis is pure. They have recorded their Self-Realization experiences in scriptures and discuss all the true and right knowledge related to it. We can have that for a start, but still Hinduism encourages every seeker to think and verify truths independently.

Knowledge about the right and wrong depends on our own volition towards the established norms of right and wrong. Ultimately, what leads to the knowledge about Self is the only right thing; everything else that retards this progress is wrong in one way or another.

Human soul is clothed in five sheaths and three bodies (physical, astral and causal) according to Hinduism. Things that nourish the soul's manifestation at these levels can be considered to be right. For example, food nourishes the physical body, but is poison beyond the required level. Anger, jealousy, lust, etc. retard the growth of our astral body whereas love, compassion, empathy and altruism nourish it with finer, brighter colors. Thoughts that seek to indulge in material life give a stunted growth to our causal body whereas inquiry into what we really are leads to knowledge about Self and nourishes the causal body.

Thus it is a question of nourishing our vested endowments and pruning them towards knowledge of the Self and these are the most rightful activities for us as humans. This is achieved only gradually by disciplining our sheaths to the goal of Self.

atanu
09 December 2007, 04:59 AM
Everything spoken or written..basically communicated through a medium, we interpret it through our ignorance. When it passes through our our deceiving mind, it becomes filtered. When one is to purity him/herself, he can truly view the truth, but then, how is one to know weather it is true or lie? What if our reasoning ends up being absurd? What if our faith ends up being hollow? How is one to escape from such...? This is a very difficult question. I am basically asking, how do we know we are right.

Namaste skhandelwal,

Good actions are said to increase bhakti (union and love). Bad actions increase vibhakti (division and irritation). But it is also true that some false indications may crop from time to time.

But why bother so much? Surrender to your chosen God with full heart. What you love with your full heart is true God (and not anything in the books).

It is not so tough. Shraddha and Saburi are the upadeshas that help me.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

skhandelwal
14 December 2007, 06:16 PM
The comes a time in life that when almost there is not good enough. If "this" is not the truth, it is Maya, if it is truth, it is god. The deviding line. I am on it. You say that sages purify themselves, well, we still have 4 major different classes of philosophies, meaning, all of them were closer, but none of them were there at the truth.

Eastern Mind
14 December 2007, 06:31 PM
Everything spoken or written..basically communicated through a medium, we interpret it through our ignorance. When it passes through our our deceiving mind, it becomes filtered. When one is to purity him/herself, he can truly view the truth, but then, how is one to know weather it is true or lie? What if our reasoning ends up being absurd? What if our faith ends up being hollow? How is one to escape from such...? This is a very difficult question. I am basically asking, how do we know we are right.

It is not in the intellect. The intellect is one of the greatest barriers on the path. It's in the intuition, direct cognition. Surely you've made a decision where you just 'knew' it was right. This wasn't from the intellect processing, balancing, seeing what scripture has to say. It was from the superconscious mind, the mind of the soul, which in itself is an extension of the self god within. Go to a temple. Pray. This opens up the intuitive faculties, which are much better than intellect. It serves us well, clearing doubt, and allowing the right path to be opened. Proceed with confidence knowing that God lead you to that. Aum Namashivaya

yajvan
14 December 2007, 07:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

The comes a time in life that when almost there is not good enough. If "this" is not the truth, it is Maya, if it is truth, it is god. The deviding line. I am on it. You say that sages purify themselves, well, we still have 4 major different classes of philosophies, meaning, all of them were closer, but none of them were there at the truth.


Namste s,

I see that atanu and EM have offered some wise words and insights...
yet I do not see the conundrum.

You mention

If "this" is not the truth, it is Maya, if it is truth, it is god.

Truth or Reality or Satyam is perceived with clarity of mind, or the infusion of consciousness. When one is of this Being, then perfect 20-20 vision is offered to that native.

you mention

we still have 4 major different classes of philosophies, meaning, all of them were closer, but none of them were there at the truth.

Perhaps you can lay this out a bit more so I (we) can see what you see.
The philosophy is a 'love of wisdom', and the views are different, but all are looking at the same elephant, just different parts. That is to say if we could imbibe just and live the wisdom that was offered, then truth of Being would be established in a flash, in just one word if the naive's consciousness is prepared for it.

This first words of the siva sutras is for the sadhu that ripe in consciousness and does even need to meditate for one sesecond to realize the full impact of truth with one word - caitanyamatma¹.


So perhaps if you can help explain what you mean by truth , being on the dividing line and what that implies, we are happy to continue the conversatation and go deeper and wider.

pranams,


1. for additional comments on this , please consider http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2361

skhandelwal
18 December 2007, 12:51 PM
Using the argument, "looking at the elephant by different angles" is just a way create peace and friendliness between opposites views. According to myself, perspectives don't exist.....there is only 1 way....all perspectives are actually that same 1 way.(not part of it...this is it)....it is only a matter of clarity to realize it.

In addition, there are specific arguments where different philosophies disagree at....I am sure all you gyanis know more about it than I do but one of them example can be Shavism vs Vaishnavism where Nonduality fights Duality.

yajvan
18 December 2007, 07:39 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Using the argument, "looking at the elephant by different angles" is just a way create peace and friendliness between opposites views. According to myself, perspectives don't exist.....there is only 1 way....all perspectives are actually that same 1 way.(not part of it...this is it)....it is only a matter of clarity to realize it.

In addition, there are specific arguments where different philosophies disagree at....I am sure all you gyanis know more about it than I do but one of them example can be Shavism vs Vaishnavism where Nonduality fights Duality.

Namaste skhandelwal,
I respect your POV , yet we differ.

you mention,

perspectives don't exist.....there is only 1 way....all perspectives are actually that same 1 way.

If you can advise me on this one way, perhaps I will better understand your post. That said, I look to some wisdom offered by Yudhishthira,

'...the Srutis are different from one another; there is not even one Rishi whose opinion can be accepted by all; the truth about religion and duty is hid in caves: therefore, that alone is the path along which the great have trod.' - Mahabharata, Yaksha Prasna

you also write,

"looking at the elephant by different angles" is just a way create peace and friendliness
If that were the case, then there would never have been debates between the various rishis and their knowledge base; there would be no need for the 6 systems of Indian Philoposphy - 6 views ( darshana).

Perspectives are views of the Truth, this I agree, there is one Truth. I think rishi dirghatamas said it best:
ekam sad; vipra bahudha vadanti -Rig Veda I.164.46
'Truth is One; sages call it variously'



pranams,

devotee
18 December 2007, 09:50 PM
Everything spoken or written..basically communicated through a medium, we interpret it through our ignorance. When it passes through our our deceiving mind, it becomes filtered. When one is to purity him/herself, he can truly view the truth, but then, how is one to know weather it is true or lie? What if our reasoning ends up being absurd? What if our faith ends up being hollow? How is one to escape from such...? This is a very difficult question. I am basically asking, how do we know we are right.
Dear Sri Sk,

Right & wrong are concepts which are creations of our mind. These concepts keep changing from one point to the other depending upon from where you are trying to "see". There is no right or wrong in absolute sense. ... but that puts us in a very difficult situation, right ? ... we do have choices (apparently) ... some choices have pleasant results whereas some have painful (that too apparently) ... then how can we say that "there is no "right" or "wrong" in absolute sense" ?

To find the truth, there is a need to first find that one, who is asking this question. Who is trying to know, "What is right or wrong ?" ? Any sense of descrimination starts first with the "I-thought" ... the identification of oneself with a separate individuality. Finding this answer relieves you from all doubts ... you can clearly see the game of mind ... which is this world. I would recommend Ramana Maharishi's methodology "Who am I ?".

However, if that doesn't suit you, then you must rely on your belief system & what your concious says about it. You accept what your "viveka" asks you to do & discard what it says to discard. One very simple tool that I have found handy is "Reduce Pain" test. By this theory, if your choice results in overall reduction of pain, it is the right choice. Here "pain" is just "pain" .... i.e. there must be no differentiation between "my pain" & the "other's pain". .... Howver, let me add here that "pain" is also
a subjective concept because its intensity is directly proportional to "attachments".

skhandelwal
19 December 2007, 10:35 AM
As you guys have mentioned, truth is one, sages make it different.....thats what I am trying to say...the reason sages make the truth different b/c it is not perfect enough to be accepted everyone. However, that doesn't mean perfect truth doesn't mean...just means everything else is Maya...Neti....who am I? Not this, not that...what remains, is my essence, the truth.

yajvan
19 December 2007, 01:16 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

As you guys have mentioned, truth is one, sages make it different.....thats what I am trying to say.

Namaste skhandelwal,
now I see your point.

skhandelwal
22 December 2007, 07:06 AM
So, the question sprung again, how do we know if we are right?(how do we achieve the truth that is beyond/surpasses those of sages and comes to not satisfaction, but absolute belief on a concept that is unrejectable.

yajvan
22 December 2007, 08:15 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

So, the question sprung again, how do we know if we are right?(how do we achieve the truth that is beyond/surpasses those of sages and comes to not satisfaction, but absolute belief on a concept that is unrejectable.

Namste,
IMHO the answer [being right] was offered on several previous posts.

Q:OKay, but how to achieve truth?
A: Become established in turiya, that is, Brahmvidvarishta ( Self Realization) or turiyatit chetana.

Q: And how to do this?
A: withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal say the wise.

Q: But what am I withdrawing to-and-from?
A: The Vijnana Bhairava gives some insights and dharana ( a practice, contemplation, meditation). It says
cid-dharna sarva dehesu vishesi nasti kutracit|
Atashca tanmayam sarvam bhavayan bhavajij-janah||
The One, which is characterized as Consciousness is residing in all the bodies; there is no differentiation in anything. Therefore ( or Hence ) if a person realizes that everything is full of that (very Consciousness) he conquers the world of becoming

A. Withdrawing from duality, multiplicity of the world around you , to pure consciousness, pure awareness, restful alertness.


Q: And how to do this?
A:Choose a technique, a upaya.

Q: But which one?
A:

Sambhavopaya [Sambhava - upaya] - this is considered the highest means
Saktopaya - this is considered the middle means
Anavopaya - this is considered entry levelQ: But are there others?
A: Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga - All roads lead to Rome

Q: But I do not know where to start?
A: Then start with Anavopaya - this is considered entry level

Q: Where can I get some of this knowledge?
A:

Reading Vijnana Bhairava Tantra or many other books on this subject matter or;
find a Guru
or a sadhu that is progressing that will assist you
or an organization¹ that fits your disposition
or sit still and discover it for yourselfQ: But How will I know I will be successful?
A: 'No effort is every lost' - Krsna, the Bhagavad Gita


pranams

1. Kriya Yoga, ISKON, Paramahamsa Nithyananda, Divine Life Society ( Sivananda ashram), TM Program, etc., etc.

yajvan
25 December 2007, 11:44 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,


The truth does not become clear in you until it is heard again and again and meditated upon again and again.



Yoga Vasișțha, sadhu Kundadanta on Liberation, or Nirvāṇa Prakaranam, Chapt 6.2.185

atanu
25 December 2007, 06:42 PM
So, the question sprung again, how do we know if we are right?(how do we achieve the truth that is beyond/surpasses those of sages and comes to not satisfaction, but absolute belief on a concept that is unrejectable.

Dear skhandelwal,

The truth is not beyond.

The truth is that you got to exist, even to speculate upon what is truth. Man is the truth. Uktha is the truth of Man. Arkya is the truth of Man. Uktha and Arkya both mean OM. Om originates in "Not Two", but manifests as a couple (vital breath and speech).

Existence itself is the truth. Vedic Rishis teach: Truth and only truth.

Om

Eastern Mind
27 December 2007, 05:42 PM
So, the question sprung again, how do we know if we are right?(how do we achieve the truth that is beyond/surpasses those of sages and comes to not satisfaction, but absolute belief on a concept that is unrejectable.

Apparently you just know. Its not intellectual, so I am told. No discussion or words can do it justice. One cannot describe the Self, for it is beyond description, beyond words, the nothingness that is still everything. (Certainly way beyond my limited perception, and yet how many beings on this planet have even heard of self-realisation, or that there is a truth within? We Hindus are blessed indeed. Aum Namasivaya