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yajvan
11 December 2007, 05:47 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

re: fundamental phonemes

If any one can help me with the following ( See bold blue below)...
I will add to the list as I have a just few more sounds to get defined.
The diacritical marks is area in question e.g. converted to the needed sound/voice.

The initial work here on the devanagari letters are sarabhanga's offer and
can be viewed at: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18046&postcount=5 (thank you)

For those viewing and Cannot see the devanagari letters, they are in Mangal.ttf ( a true type font).
Everything else is Tacoma true type font.

You can turn-on the mangal.ttf font set in Windows ( I use XP) O/S.
It is in 'Control Panel' option, then;
_________Date,Time, Language, Regional Option
__________________________Add Other Languages
_____________________________Install files for East Asian Languages

_______________________________________________________________
अ= a / sounds like the u in cut or a in american.
आ= ā = aa = A / as in father
इ=i / as in lip
ई= ī = ii = I / as in police

उ= u / as in full

ऊ= ū = uu = U / as in rude

ऋ= ṛ = Ri = R / as in rich

ॠ= ṝ = RI = RR / as in merrily and marine ?

ऌ= ḷ = lR = Li = L as in ____?

ॡ= ḹ = lRR = LI = LL | as in ___?

ए= e | as in prey

ऐ= ai | as in aisle

ओ= o / as in so

औ= au / as in loud

sarabhanga
12 December 2007, 07:27 PM
Namaste Yajvan,



ऋ = ṛ = Ri = R / as in rich

ॠ = ṝ = RI = RR / as in merrily and marine ?

ऌ = ḷ = lR = Li = L as in ____?

ॡ = ḹ = lRR = LI = LL | as in ___?

The vowel RikAra is not exactly the same as the semivowel rakAra, but first some perspective:

There are two phonetic series involved here, both arising from the rajasika interaction of ikAra and ukAra.

The cerebral (retroflex) series begins with the vowels RikAra and RIkAra, then the semivowel rakAra, and the soft consonant DakAra, concluding with the hard consonant TakAra.

And the dental series begins with the vowels LikAra and LIkAra, then the semivowel lakAra, and the soft consonant dakAra, concluding with the hard consonant takAra.

Each series begins with the least formed sound and ends with its most definite expression, so the variety of pronunciation is most obvious in the hard consonants:
labial pakAra, dental takAra, cerebral TakAra, palatal cakAra, and guttural kakAra.

Tracing back towards the source, the soft consonants are:
labial bakAra, dental dakAra, cerebral Dakara, palatal jakAra, and guttural gakAra.

And the semivowels are:
labial vakAra, dental lakAra, cerebral rakAra, palatal yakAra, and guttural hakAra.

The primitive vowels are more subtly distinguished, but the relative sequence is:
labial ukAra, dental okAra, cerebral ikAra, palatal ekAra, and finally the unformed guttural akAra.

RikAra, RIkAra, LikAra, and LIkAra, exist beyond this five-fold scheme, somewhere between labial and cerebral, arising as a diphthong of U and I.

Ri is more cerebral, and Li is more dental, so the theoretical pronunciations should be something like (r)ui and (l)ui.
Li and LI, however, retain a trace of Ri, with a sound perhaps closer to lrui.

rakAra is the same r as in ring or rich.
RikAra resembles the sound of ri in merrily (merruily).
RIkAra resembles the sound of ri in marine (maruiine).

lakAra is the same l as in land or lot.
LikAra (or lRikAra) resembles the sound of lry in revelry (revelrui).
LIkAra (or lRIkAra) is a long form of Li (or lRi) which has no example in english and even in sanskrit only occurs in the works of grammarians ~ e.g. LISA (lruiishaa).

yajvan
12 December 2007, 08:48 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


rakAra is the same r as in ring or rich.
RikAra resembles the sound of ri in merrily (merruily).
RIkAra resembles the sound of ri in marine (maruiine).

lakAra is the same l as in land or lot.
LikAra (or lRikAra) resembles the sound of lry in revelry (revelrui).
LIkAra (or lRIkAra) is a long form of Li (or lRi) which has no example in english and even in sanskrit only occurs in the works of grammarians ~ e.g. LISA (lruiishaa).


Namaste sarabhanga,
thank you for organizing this post... I will need to study a bit, but having the info to work with is a boon.

Also - I note that

lakAra is the same l as in land or lot.
with this sound my tongue position is the same for both land and lot, yet my lips change shape and the sound is lightly different. Is there a preferred phonic on this? e.g. land over lot?


pranams

sarabhanga
13 December 2007, 12:28 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

Of course there is a difference between land and lot, but that is only because there is a difference between and and ot. In each case, the l is exactly the same.

lakAra refers to the individual letter that makes la, and that is the pure consonant l, with no vowel or any other sound attached. And my previous comments were only considering the individual letters, not any combinations forming syllables or seeds.

Vowels can be pronounced alone, but all consonants require the addition of a vowel in order to actually be pronounced ~ try pronouncing k or g without adding any vowel sound and you will only choke yourself!

yajvan
13 December 2007, 07:06 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

Of course there is a difference between land and lot, but that is only because there is a difference between and and ot. In each case, the l is exactly the same.

...
~ try pronouncing k or g without adding any vowel sound and you will only choke yourself!

Namaste sarabhanga,
thank you for your patience on this as I see what you are saying.

since you offered k, what of these:

क = ka as in kit? and never as cat?

ख = kha as in capture or as in ink-horn?



pranams

sarabhanga
14 December 2007, 06:01 PM
Namaste Yajvan,



क= ka as in kit? and never as cat?

ख= kha as in capture or as in ink-horn?

The hard guttural kakAra corresponds with the k in keep, king, or kitten; and khakAra is the aspirated form, resembling the kh of inkhorn.

The hard palatal cakAra corresponds with the ch in church; and chakAra is the aspirated form, resembling the chh in churchhouse.

English has fewer letters to cover the whole range of sounds, and it also uses different letters to indicate exactly the same sound (depending on history more than actual pronunciation).

The initial consonant of the english cat is pronounced exactly as the guttural k of kitten ~ with both cat and kitten derived from the same root. In greek it was written as katta, but in latin it was catta, and the french pronunciation is certainly more palatal.

In english (as I understand it), kit, kitten, cat, cap, and capture, all begin with exactly the same sound, the only difference being in the subsequent vowel combination (a or i).