Revelation to Women

[satay]

Namaskar,

I recently learned that the divine truths were revealed to women sages also (as noted in Rig Veda).

Interestingly, this makes Rig the only scripture (as far as I know) among scriptures all religions where 'divinity' has been revealed to women.

Women obviously had high status in vedic times. How did the status of women decline to a point where some now believe that women shouldn't be allowed to chant the vedic hymns? Obviously, there was a cultural shift but the reasons behind the decline are unknown to me.

And to those who say fashionably that 'women in hindu society were oppressed from the vedic times', they are completely wrong.

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste Satay: You do have a knack for tough questions. That's a good thing. There are quite a few members of the female gender on here in this forum.. also a good thing. I have a couple of ideas, mainly derived from the influence of other cultures, especially the British, and Islam. Yhe other thought would be cultural de-evolution on its own. Certainly i'm looking forward to other's responses who are more experts than you or I. Aum Namasivaya

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Satay,




Interestingly, this makes Rig the only scripture (as far as I know) among scriptures all religions where 'divinity' has been revealed to women.

What about the two Maries (the mAryau) ?
E.g. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=14100#post14100




How did the status of women decline to a point where some now believe that women shouldn’t be allowed to chant the vedic hymns? Obviously, there was a cultural shift but the reasons behind the decline are unknown to me.

There are well known examples of female saints and sages from throughout Indian history. And the only rule that has in practice prevented non-brahmans (and women) from reading the Vedas is that they have generally been without the necessary knowledge of Sanskrit.




And to those who say fashionably that “women in hindu society were oppressed from the vedic times”, they are completely wrong.

“O Arjuna, women, vaishyas, shudras, as well as those of vile birth, whoever they may be, taking refuge in Me they too attain the supreme goal.”

[satay]

namaskar,


Namaste Satay,


What about the two Maries (the mAryau) ?
E.g. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=14100#post14100


Oh right. I didn't think of Mary in the sense of 'revelation' or 'shruti'.



There are well known examples of female saints and sages from throughout Indian history. And the only rule that has in practice prevented non-brahmans (and women) from reading the Vedas is that they have generally been without the necessary knowledge of Sanskrit.


Yes, that's interesting isn't it? For example, why have women born in bramin families been 'generally' without the necessary knowledge of Sanskrit? Were they discouraged to take the study of sanskrit from early age? When this attitude change and why?

Just thinking out loud...

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Bishma¹ says the following,

One acharya is superior to ten Brahmanas learned in the Vedas. One upadhyaya is again superior to ten acharyas. The father, again, to ten Upadhyayas. The mother, again, is superior to ten fathers, or perhaps, the whole world, in importance. There is no one that deserves such reverence as the mother.

He goes on to say,
He who favours a person by imparting to him true instruction, by communicating the Vedas, and giving knowledge which is immortal, should be regarded as both a father and a mother.
Mahabharata, Santi Parva, Section CVIII


We find ~ 25 to27 female risi's of the Rig Veda; we also see them as yogini's and gurus. For this the earth is blessed as they are shakti.

pranams,


1. Bishma starts out this parva talking to Yudhishthira and says, The worship of mother, father and preceptor (guru, teacher) is most important according to me.

[Arjuna]

Interestingly, this makes Rig the only scripture (as far as I know) among scriptures all religions where 'divinity' has been revealed to women.

Tantras as well ;)

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Arjuna


Well I think it is the contrary Tantras are a revelation from Woman to man and woman and not a revelation from man to Women and man.:D As Shakti or Devi embody's the feminine principle and the Kashtryajnana or Deva the masculine principle.
Normally Tantras appear as with the Goddess giving instructions.;)
I have heard that the so called Vaishnava Tantras or Samhitas use a neutral or sometimes non divine form of presenting the revelation. Like the Hatha Yoga Pradipika ( correct me if this text is not a Samhita) which is presented by a disciple of Gorakshanatha.

[saidevo]

I think that it is basically the woman's preoccupation with family welfare and maintenance (a role cut out for them) that left them practically with no time for 'sAdhanA' and the accompanying revelation. Hindu dharma, however, compensated women in many other ways, and women continue to excel in certain dharmic walks of life to this day.

1. While the societal women were thus busy in their daily life, the 'rishi patni's (rishis' wives) were largely free, because of the frugal daily requirements of their husbands. How many of them rose to the extent of keeping them spiritually ready for the revelation? This is not to say that the 'rishi patni's were ignorant. Most of them received instructions from their husbands, as in the case of Yajnavalkya and Maitreyi.

2. For that matter, how many of men among the brahmins who were fluent in Sanskrit and learnt Vedas, turned out to be 'sAdhikA's who had the Truth revealed to them experientially?

3. Even in the western countries, among the liberated women, most are still preoccupied with household chores, though far more women there are better educated than in India.

4. As people opined here, Hindu scriptures definitely gave a high place for women in their entire hierarchy of existence. Our goddesses are on par with the gods. Hindu dharma seemingly did not encourage women to become as learned as their husbands, but such bar was not in the system, only in the society, due to the narrowmindedness of men.

5. Hindu dharma in fact provides more facilities and leisure time for the societal women to excel. At the spiritual level, they are encouraged to be practically in charge of home pujas, partaking the rituals with their husbands on equal footing; the Shastras give half the 'puNyA' (merit) earned by men in their dharmic activities to their wives. At the worldly level, the manual work of cooking and grinding gave them enough physical workout, though in today's modern kitchen this is no longer so. At the artistic level, Hindu dharma encourages women to learn the spiritual arts such as Karnatic music and Bharatanatyam dance, areas in which they are matchless even today. Music gives them enough opportunities of meditative 'sAdhanA' and dance tunes up their physique in true yogic fashion. But then these opportunities and facilities are not adequately used by women in today's families or encouraged by the related men folk.

6. In one sense, women are responsible for their own societal status today that borders on disgrace. They choose to take up men's chores and work, ignorantly thinking that only then they can be on par with men.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste

A fact is only explained by other facts as all in this macro universe is ruled by Karma i.e. cause and effect. So I think when a person says " it´s a fact" in last instance is making an affirmation of pluralism and appealing from the innermost true. " I am That".

In the psychologies of the Jivas a commune ground is found and that is Advaita the Self; The one divides himself in two and one plus two makes three.


Om namah shivaya!

[Soul]

Saidevo, you wrote....

" I think that it is basically the woman's preoccupation with family welfare and maintenance (a role cut out for them) that left them practically with no time for 'sAdhanA' and the accompanying revelation. Hindu dharma, however, compensated women in many other ways, and women continue to excel in certain dharmic walks of life to this day."

Agreed. I see friends who have children , in a lot of suffering, and they have no time for inner work.... They may have to put it off until they are old (if they reach old age... we never know)

I have chosen , so it seems, not to have children, as Liberation is far more stronger a desire....

Frees me up for lots of reading, satsang, practices...

Many have desire for children, and that's great or we wouldn't be here would we ? :)

[saidevo]

Namaste Soul.



I have chosen , so it seems, not to have children, as Liberation is far more stronger a desire....

Frees me up for lots of reading, satsang, practices...

Many have desire for children, and that's great or we wouldn't be here would we ? :)

Having at least one children is a dharmic duty of a 'dampati' (husband-wife). Hinduism encourages couples to have more children. How else can the waiting souls have their rebirths?

Children or no children, housewives generally have more leisure time than their working husbands. With the right basic education, they are free to pursue their 'sAdhanA' or other type of spiritual advancement in devotion, music, dance, etc. That today's housewife is however more influenced by the shallow media entertainments than pursuits of spiritual excellence is another matter. The willing, however, have the way readily open to them.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste

A fact is only explained by other facts as all in this macro universe is ruled by Karma i.e. cause and effect.

There is always casues and effect, yes Nuno?
Yet what happens to this law when a sadhu walks and lives in Brahman?

For cause and efffect to occur there needs to be an object and subject, would you not agree?

Yet when Brahmvidvarishta (Self Realization) blossoms where is there two? What then happens to this karma and the universe?


pranams,

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Yajvan

It could happen two thing´s, the karma and this universe become suspended i.e. neuter; the karma and this universe extinguish them self´s.

" For cause and efffect to occur there needs to be an object and subject, would you not agree? "

Einstein would not disagree that ghostly causes can hunt you or anybody else directly from the past.

" Yet what happens to this law when a sadhu walks and lives in Brahman?"

I do not Know for Brahman only Arjuna as saw it by the hand of Krishna. The rest of the world can only in avdya vaguely talk about it especially in this Kali yuga Were there are very few real karma killers.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


It could happen two thing´s, the karma and this universe become suspended i.e. neuter; the karma and this universe extinguish them self´s.

" For cause and effect to occur there needs to be an object and subject, would you not agree? "

Einstein would not disagree that ghostly causes can hunt you or anybody else directly from the past.

Namaste N,

Yet if this is true, then there is this 'ghostly past' and the 'present', again two. and there is the 'ghost' and then there is someone in the present, again two.

What I am suggesting is with the realization of SELF, the world changes, the same 'laws' we thought to be steadfast seem not to apply.

Its as if one goes from a Newtonian world of physics, to An Einstein world view... then from a Einsteinian¹ world view to a ...etc. etc., and finally to a Upanisad-ian view of how THIS works and its origin.

So what is the point? :blah:
Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness.

In avidya, there is duplicity, as we write laws based upon this multiplicity we see around us... then one has the flash of insight and find there is no two, no duplicity and the laws change, that is, how one views the world changes. It is these muni's that are most valued to give us a glimpse of satyam, of the truth.


pranams


1. some may say from Einsteinian, one would go to Quantium Field Theory, then String Theory, etc. etc. What is of great interst here, is we get finer and finer in the resolution ( granulaity) of coming to the Absolute.

[yajvan]

I4. As people opined here, Hindu scriptures definitely gave a high place for women in their entire hierarchy of existence. Our goddesses are on par with the gods. Hindu dharma seemingly did not encourage women to become as learned as their husbands, but such bar was not in the system, only in the society, due to the narrowmindedness of men.


Namaste,

From Manu smṛti Chapt 3, sloka 55 and 56

Women must be honoured and adorned by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and brothers-in-law, who desire (their own) welfare.
Where women are honoured, there the gods are pleased; but where they are not honoured, no sacred rite yields rewards.pranams