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skhandelwal
01 January 2008, 08:33 PM
Everything....all life's problems boils down this simple question....Why do we worry? According to Karma Yoga, we worry b/c we think about the consequences(analyze the situation instead of just listening to our hearts)....This actually makes sense...but it is very hard to follow practically.

Anyways, if thinking about the consequences leads us to fear about what if we loose, then the question I guess is...why are we so obsessed with winning?

Thank you.
Happy New Year Everyone!:)

c.smith
01 January 2008, 10:29 PM
Namaste,

IMHO,

Worry = attachment to the results.

In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna tells us again and again to be free from the attachment to results.

In my everyday life, yes I do worry. But when those worries surface, I question whether what I am doing or about to do is for the benefit of Siva. It's still a minor thought in my mind, but I'm trying to see all that I do as simply being a channel for Siva - he is actually doing, just doing it through me. That usually takes away any discomfort. Do I make mistakes and go against my own will? Do I buy in to ego? I like to think that I'm making progress by the mercy of Siva.

I don't want to come across as "preaching", am just trying to awknowledge the small changes that I'm making along the path.

Don't let "Karma Yoga" be an excuse to live things as they are. Krishna again tells us about right action. Right action = being free from the results and from the ego, doing all to please the Lord.


Along the path...

Aum Namah Sivaya!

skhandelwal
02 January 2008, 07:12 AM
But what are we attached to which makes us obsessed up winning? Is it how other people will judge us? Deepak Chopra says that if you don't want to be affected by other people's judgment, stop judging them. So may be, if I respect everyone, I will respect myself and become free from this attachment.

yajvan
02 January 2008, 12:15 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Everything....all life's problems boils down this simple question....Why do we worry?

I have a different view on this matter... let me offer two points if I may.

Observation 1
Life's problems you mention is connected to worry. I see worry based in fear , as you mention the 'worry' or fear of the outcome.

The Upanishads say dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati or, certainly fear is born of duality. That is, whenever and wherever there is a sense of two, fear can exist. That there is 'me' and everyone and everything else, this is the sense of 2 or more.

Hence
Worry is based in fear, fear is based in duality, duality is based in avidya or ignorance that more then One ,or Unity of this creation exists. This is corrected by kevalya.




why are we so obsessed with winning?
Observation 2 - Why Do humans Like To Win
Winning is the experience of achievement, of moving forward. This 'forward' is a sense of accomplishment, or attainment. Winning is a matter of accomplishing, yes?

Things, degrees, family, friends, cars, trophies, promotions, all that attainment suggests that I am more now then I was before; more fullness, closer to Bhuma. Yet no one ever achieves this Fullness of Being by acquiring more things.

Hence
Nalpe sukham asti - finite things do not contain happiness - rishi Sanatkumara
It is with this Fullness of Being that we feel and are complete, that the desire for more, for winning is quenched.


pranams

Soul
02 January 2008, 11:21 PM
Namaste All,

How about ask the question ... Who is it who is worrying?

Who is it who experiences fear?

Knowing That and staying as That in which fear and worry arises in actually allows the fear and worry to transform....

Don't judge fear and worry , deny it, or try and push it away...

All is Brahma.. including fear and worry.. All is welcome...

All simply allowed to arise and pass...

Love to All,
Soul

atanu
03 January 2008, 02:38 AM
"Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you think, and of everything you do, is for yourself—and there isn't one."


Ask the Awakened (2002), Wei Wu Wei
-----------------

A view

sm78
03 January 2008, 04:03 AM
He who hath lost the fear of losing has no fear after all. I have seen one or two such individuals...lesson is selfless service and upasana are 2 things which surely work in this yuga.

saidevo
03 January 2008, 04:44 AM
Namaste.

1. Worry arises out of fear. Fear is an emotion based on the thought of the unknown. Every human being except the 'jnAni' is bound to have this worry, this fear of the unknown. The prudent human learns to become 'aware' of the worrying act when the worry arises. This awareness gradually creates the indifference to the fruits of our action and lessens the suffering due to worrying.

2. The obsession of winning arises out of desire. Desire to acquire and possess. The ultimate goal is for such possession is happiness that often deteriorates to personal aggrandizement. The desire to win becomes positive when the mind is directed inwards for spiritual progress. In one sense even Brahman is obsessed with this 'desire to win back' all the manifestations into him; in the process he goes on with his cycles of creation and dissolution.

The constant self-assertion that 'aham etat na' (I am not This), our sagacious elders say, would gradually free a person from the afflictions of worry and the obsession with the fruits of winning.

Bob G
03 January 2008, 08:25 AM
Worry could also be said to be related to the apparent past or future, for if we are 100% in the eternal moment there is no time or energy left over for going into worry or fear.

Then again in the deepest of fears is the deepest of lessons. Thank you fear for that teaching!

327

Bob G
03 January 2008, 08:38 AM
Cool post Soul,

328

Good Day

Om

yajvan
03 January 2008, 10:43 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


1. Worry arises out of fear.

Namaste,

The Upanishads say dvitiyad vai bhayam bhavati or, certainly fear is born of duality.


pranams

Bob G
03 January 2008, 01:54 PM
Without great doubt (more or less a form of worry) one's apparent individual mind might never crack, and if that was so how would such minds ever be opened up? (to something greater)

yajvan
03 January 2008, 04:20 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Without great doubt (more or less a form of worry) one's apparent individual mind might never crack, and if that was so how would such minds ever be opened up? (to something greater)

Namaste,
BG I see this as interesting; some folks are born on this earth and gain moksha with out all the grief. ( I would like to get on this list!).

So the opening up, the upliftment, comes with one word, a hint, or a reminder of who one really is. The mala of ajῆāna or ignorance is washed away. If I were talking Kasmir Saivism this would be called the upaya of ṡāmbavopāya. No process or dhyāna is required. The sadhu enters the Supreme by the grace of his teacher ( master, guru, swami).

Truly ( IMHO) this sadhu's past life(s) brought him/her to this point to recieve this grace from his guru/swami/master.

pranams

Bob G
03 January 2008, 04:59 PM
Hello Yajvan,

I agree that the wonderful situation/oppurtunity that you mention could more or less be directly related to a past life(s); then again such could be more related to events in the present life...few of us really know and who is counting to find out?

Good day

Om

skhandelwal
03 January 2008, 06:15 PM
Some of you made some really nice points...thank you....while one hole in the understanding still remains....

I have seen that hatred, problems, everything arises out of duality...and while there are several solutions...they all point to nonduality. But here is the question....Why do we fear duality? In a more practical sense, What is it that makes us fear death?

In other words, what is the source of unawareness?

sarabhanga
03 January 2008, 07:12 PM
Why do we fear duality? What is it that makes us fear death?

In other words, what is the source of unawareness?

The truth is that (despite the inevitable suffering) most are actually more comfortable dwelling in the familiar realm of dvaitam, and it is in fact the advaitam that they fear more. What is unknown can become unimaginably fearsome in wild imagination, and the best cure for such doubts is true understanding and knowledge. Before such true knowledge dawns, however, the doubts and fears may be relieved by faith in the words of one who already knows (i.e. the guru).

yajvan
03 January 2008, 07:36 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Some of you made some really nice points...thank you....while one hole in the understanding still remains....

I have seen that hatred, problems, everything arises out of duality...and while there are several solutions...they all point to nonduality. But here is the question....Why do we fear duality? In a more practical sense, What is it that makes us fear death?

In other words, what is the source of unawareness?

Namaste skhandelwal,
There lots of apples and oranges going on with your post. I am sure we can address your questions, but some of them overlap. So answering one, does not answer all.

This 'duality' we speak of, the general public is not aware of. There is no duality for them, as they are living life 'as usual'.

Non-dual living brings one to a level of Being where there is no 'two'. If there is no two , who can one hate?

So when you say why do we fear duality - it does not ring true ( to me) as an issue; if one does not know non-duality, or Unity of what concern is duality?

Now what makes us fear death? Some say we have done it before and we have an innate feeling of what it brings. I know many people that do not fear death. Why so? 'knowledge is the greatest purifier' say the wise.

Once one understands the mechanics of life, then one understands death. Would one fear throwing out an old pair of blue jeans? When the body is worn, then it is retired, traded in for new blue jeans to start again.
Krsna says in Chapt 2.30 'He who dwells in the body of everyone is eternal and invulnerable, O Bharata ( Arjuna); therefore you should not grieve for any creature whatsoever.'

So any fear of death is based upon avidya, ignorance. Ignorance does not mean stupid or dumb. It means I have ignored , or unaware, or not knowledgeable of my eternal status. I am un-aware of, or not possessed of my SELF, this restfully alert state of Being.

Now a little of this knowledge goes a long way to being the 'wake up call' for most people., but not all.

All your questions you are asking above are answered in the first 4 chapters of the Bhagavad Gita. "Extra credit' answers are also given in Chapters 5 and 6.

If we as a society lived just by the first 6 chapters ( of 18) of the Bhagavad Gita, the world would change overnight.

pranams

Bob G
03 January 2008, 10:36 PM
What reincarnates? In my pov not the particular human being we often think we are or identify with; that person does die - although many apparently think or believe that their particular human identity is what reincarnates. Thus reincarnation is moot unless we know what it is that reincarnates.

yajvan
04 January 2008, 07:26 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

What reincarnates? In my pov not the particular human being we often think we are or identify with; that person does die - although many apparently think or believe that their particular human identity is what reincarnates. Thus reincarnation is moot unless we know what it is that reincarnates.

Namaste BG,
this is known... the body is no more and served its purpose. Vasanas are stored and brought back. From a Jyotish perspective, the atman ( some say jiva) + vasanas return.

The 'return' is found in the Chandogya Upanishad , also Katha Upanishad. Krsna also talks of the return in the Bhagavad Gita.

Now, why do we not remember past lives? I do not know. I have met two people that suggest they remember. One said he remembered the interim time ( the between life time), and the other remembered a few past lives.
Neither were boasting, and the information was requested by me vs. them given to bragging.

I don't recall what I had for breakfast, let alone life times...

pranams

skhandelwal
04 January 2008, 07:52 AM
B/c as we ascend on spiritual scale....we are more prone to remember previous life times, can one say that we "choose" not to remember the previous life times by being "unaware"?

Aren't we born unaware? Since we don't remember out infant times? We gain awareness at the age of 4-5...how come? what makes us gain it? And if we were completely aware, we couldn't lose it...but we do. We think of everyone we meet as god....especially parents...which is why anyone can mold us in anyways they like...which is why we are most prone/vulnerable. How does awareness brings us to this?

Also, since anyone who achieves complete awareness achieves Nirvana, you can't really say that we "choose" not to be awared....b/c we don't really know how to be aware always.(A lot of people have a hard time controlling anger.)

satay
06 January 2008, 11:33 AM
I worry about getting old, really really old and having to depend on others for even the basics.

yajvan
06 January 2008, 04:05 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

I worry about getting old, really really old and having to depend on others for even the basics.

Namaste satay,
you are ancient to begin with...

there never was a time when I was not, nor you , nor these rulers amonst men. Nor will there ever come a time when all of us shall cease to be. ..Krsna to Arjuna, Chapt 2.12 Bhagavad Gita

pranams

Eastern Mind
06 January 2008, 05:36 PM
I worry about getting old, really really old and having to depend on others for even the basics.

I think it is a good idea to make a living will, so that some hospital or staff in some hospital don't keep you alive for some ridiculous reason, like science instead of humanity. I certainly don't believe in suicide for the terminally ill, but if not taking food (if you can't feed yourself or can't express the desire to be fed, for example) or life support is written down in a living will, then the staff are legally bound to abide by your written wishes. Let nature take its natural course, I say. My mother suffered five years too long with Alzheimers.
Aum Namasivaya

skhandelwal
07 January 2008, 01:13 PM
If nature were to take its natural toll, then we would all die in cold weather....nature is not god...we are. It us whose decisive awareness has gotten us this far to survival....different than those animals.

You talk about a torture in such a position...I am not saying it is not possible...but what if the person wants to live in that situation...then what? This is murder...perhaps, the people who have been awaken from this experience might be able to explain us through explicit details and polls what is best and what should be done. Only the victim knows the best.

I understand what happened to your mother...but every person is different and go through different situations....don't generalize this massively.

satay
07 January 2008, 02:36 PM
namaste skhandelwal,


If nature were to take its natural toll,

who are you talking to? It is common practice here to either quote the member you are replying to or at the very least start your message by addressing them.

satay
07 January 2008, 02:37 PM
Namaskar yajvan,

I suppose that my worry is not about the actual fact of getting old but more to do with dependence on others or helplessness in that state.


Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste satay,
you are ancient to begin with...

pranams

Eastern Mind
07 January 2008, 06:13 PM
namaste skhandelwal,

who are you talking to? It is common practice here to either quote the member you are replying to or at the very least start your message by addressing them.

Satay: I believe Skhandelwal was addressing me from the quote above his but yes you are correct.

Skhandelwal: Perhaps I did not explain fully. Here in the west we are allowed by law to make living wills. (I am not sure of other country's law's, so I can only address the laws of Canada.) We have the right to make a living will, which can direct our caregivers in what way we may wish to end life, excluding suicide, or assisted suicide. This means that we can direct the caregivers to direct the medical establishment to 'pull the plug' so to speak, and not keep us on life support, which I believe is not a natural state, but more of a medical anomaly that pertains to science, not spirituality. That I believe is what Satay was referring to in his posts on worry. I, on the other hand do not worry so much about that as I do have a living will, which makes it far easier for the family caregivers to know just what it is that I want. There has been lots of pain suffered needlessly within families when they argue about what to do when an elder is in a vegetative state with little or no chance of ever recuperating. Some think that life is so sacred that it should be maintained at ALL costs, whilst others, such as myself, would prefer not to prolong the suffering. That is all that I meant by letting nature take its course. I certainly made no reference to all of us being killed off by cold weather. Hope this clarifies my thoughts for you. Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
07 January 2008, 08:32 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaskar yajvan,

I suppose that my worry is not about the actual fact of getting old but more to do with dependence on others or helplessness in that state.

Namaste satay,

yes I see your point.., We all cherish our independence.

pranams

skhandelwal
08 January 2008, 11:23 AM
Satay: I believe Skhandelwal was addressing me from the quote above his but yes you are correct.

Skhandelwal: Perhaps I did not explain fully. Here in the west we are allowed by law to make living wills. (I am not sure of other country's law's, so I can only address the laws of Canada.) We have the right to make a living will, which can direct our caregivers in what way we may wish to end life, excluding suicide, or assisted suicide. This means that we can direct the caregivers to direct the medical establishment to 'pull the plug' so to speak, and not keep us on life support, which I believe is not a natural state, but more of a medical anomaly that pertains to science, not spirituality. That I believe is what Satay was referring to in his posts on worry. I, on the other hand do not worry so much about that as I do have a living will, which makes it far easier for the family caregivers to know just what it is that I want. There has been lots of pain suffered needlessly within families when they argue about what to do when an elder is in a vegetative state with little or no chance of ever recuperating. Some think that life is so sacred that it should be maintained at ALL costs, whilst others, such as myself, would prefer not to prolong the suffering. That is all that I meant by letting nature take its course. I certainly made no reference to all of us being killed off by cold weather. Hope this clarifies my thoughts for you. Aum Namasivaya

Yes, it sure did, I just thought you meant that a person in coma who cannot move shouldn't suffer the ***mental*** pain, from which I obviously disagree(since that refers to boredom and lack of fulfillment) However, if continuous pain is involved, point is agreed. Btw, I am an American citizen too.

PaneerTikka
08 January 2008, 06:57 PM
You Can Just Refuse To Be Miserable

By Swami Swaroopananda

ANXIETY is an emotion that we all experience. Anxiety, as well as all the other emotions, can actually be turned around to our advantage. When we use the right amount, in the right place, at the right time, for the right thing, then these feelings can have a positive effect. When we use the wrong amount, at the wrong place, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons, they become negative. Excessive brooding over the future or regret for the past gives rise to worry or anxiety. Let us see how we can use the word worry to remind us how to avoid worry.
Worry starts with the letter `W'. We always think of the worst. When we are conducting our business, we worry: ``What if I can't make any money? What if there is a loss?'' We never ask, ``What if I make a profit?'' Worry always arises from this negative tendency in our minds. Yet, very often, when we have believed that the worst would happen, instead, something good happened!
Whenever you recognise the symptom of worry, check this out yourself. You will be thinking about the negative possibilities. Don't think about the worst, think instead about the Wonderful things that might happen.
The letter `O' stands for optimism, and this means refusing to become obsessed with the results of your actions. Think positively about the result, but don't be obsessed with it. Sometimes we get more benefit from our actions than we expected, and at other times, not quite what we hoped for. But if we are so obsessed with a particular result, we usually start thinking negatively. That is, we fear the worst. Why? Because we come to believe that the only good result is the one we imagine we want. Thus we become pessimistic rather than optimistic.
We cannot predict the future, we can only plan for it and work towards it to the best of our ability. Do not become obsessed about achieving a particular result. Who knows, the outcome may far exceed your expectations!
Constant worry not only arises from brooding over the future, but also from regretting the past. We are in the habit of forgetting all of the positive results from our past actions, and remembering only the negative things that have happened. How easily we gloss over all of the victories we have had in our lives and dig up minor failures from the past to reinforce our gloomy outlook.
So `R' is to Remember all of the positive things from the past, and be optimistic for wonderful things in the future. Do not use your memory to think about the worst that has happened, and be filled with regret.
The next `R' is for Restlessness. One major reason behind our anxiety for the future lies in our tendency to be physically restful and mentally restless. We want results but we don't want to work for them. Have you noticed youngsters during examination time? They spend most of the time worried: Will I pass or not? Why does this worry come about? It is usually because they haven't studied. Those who have worked hard and have worked properly for a result, for them there is no need to worry about anything. (Rest less !)
Finally, we come to `Y'. This letter stands for `Yes'. Worry continues to haunt us because we say yes to the mind. There will be many situations where worry and anxiety will enter the mind. But do not say yes to the mind.
Make up your mind not to worry -- that is the secret of controlling the mind. Once we have made up our minds, then all that we have learnt from spiritual texts like the Bhagavad Gita, and all that we learn from spiritual discourses will become effective. In Sanskrit the word for worry is "chinta". A similar word, "chitaa" means the pyre that burns the dead. This chitaa, this pyre, burns us once when we are dead; but chinta burns us continuously while we are still alive!
Worry will enter the mind, but you must refuse to entertain it. Do not say `yes' to worry. Say `no' to worry and to all the sorrows in your life. Swami Chinmayananda once thundered: ``Refuse to be miserable!'' Try it. It is the secret of life....

skhandelwal
09 January 2008, 10:50 PM
Thank you for your well-informing post paneertikka but this is what I have been bothered by, explainations of how....I have been taught to believe that we do not the why...but yet, I am here again to find it...my question is not really how we get rid of it, but why do we worry? Worrying is just an emotion....like conditional love, fear, etc. But the thing is...that has nothing to do w/ who I am...why should my failure or success affect me? Perhaps, b/c of attachments, but then, how are attachments formed?

I believe saying that duality is the ONLY reason for worrying would be a wrong statement. B/c imagine yourself being christian, now, you are in heaven, everyone is good, everything is perfect, there is no space for worrying, yet duality exists all around you. Therefore, may be we are missing the core reason here.

Although I do agree that worry comes when we travel in time, instead of being out of it...then the question is, since unawareness is the reason for our attachment to time, what is the cause of unawareness? If we were aware, we can't be unaware, and if we are unaware, how can we completely by aware? Yet, duality exists. According to the one of the postulates of eastern philosophy, if something exists, it can only transform, but cannot turn into nothing. And vise versa from the all the angles.

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 01:39 AM
All suffering is due to dvaitam. But this does NOT mean that all dvaitavAda causes suffering! I have repeatedly stated the vital importance of yama, and especially ahiMsA, and the dualistic vision of heaven is just like life on earth, except that EVERY soul admitted to heaven is bound by perfect ahiMsA.

One thing is certain, and that is that ALL attachments and distinctions are mAyA! And mAyA is ultimately avidyA (ignorance and unawareness).

mAyAvAda answers ALL questions, and ajAtivAda is the ultimate truth.

skhandelwal
10 January 2008, 02:15 AM
But what is mayavada and ajativada?

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 04:30 AM
mAyAvAda is the satyam of shrI shaÑkarAcArya, the guru of all dashanAmi saMnyAsinas, and ajAtivAda is the uttama satyam of his preceptor, shrI gauDapAda.

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 06:10 AM
Imagine yourself being christian, now, you are in heaven, everyone is good, everything is perfect, there is no space for worrying, yet duality exists all around you. Therefore, may be we are missing the core reason here.

What is the cause of unawareness? … Yet, duality exists.

The perfect advaitam of ajAtivAda denies the true existence of duality.

And it should be remembered that happy eternity in the divided heaven of christian imagination depends on the opposite existence of mRtyloka (or hell), where those souls rejected from heaven suffer eternal damnation and endless deaths.

In dvaitam, every positive must also have negative implications, and the light only exists in relation to the dark. While in advaitam, there is only pure illumination.

skhandelwal
10 January 2008, 11:21 AM
So what books would you recommend for me to get more knowledge about those philosophical system?