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orlando
09 May 2006, 02:31 AM
Namaste all.
Shri Panjaka told that Bhagavatam says that Vishnu is an an avatara of Krishna and that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Well,this is not true.
Please read Srimad Bhagavata Purana,Canto 1,Chapter 3.I use the version at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html
(1) "The Lord as the purusha accepted the universal form of the material world with its sixteen principles of material action to make a start with His creation. (2) Dormant in the water, from that navel sprouted out of the lotus of manifestation Brahmâ, the father of all beings as the creator. (3) It is imagined that the purusha, from the excellence of His existence, expanded into all the worlds. (4) His form seen perfectly thus has numerous legs, thighs, arms and faces, with wonderful heads, ears, eyes and noses, all glowing with garlands and dresses. (5) These multifarious incarnations are the indestructible source from which all the godly, human and animal beings originate.

(6) At first the sons of Brahmâ [the Kumâras] were disciplined in austerity for the realization of continuation. (7) Incarnated next for the sake of its welfare, He, like a boar, lifted the world from the lower regions. (8) Thirdly He accepted His presence among the learned (rishis) [as Nârada Muni] for the sake of evolving vedic knowledge for service in devotion without further material motives. (9) Fourth born as the twin sons of king Dharma in the form of Nara-Nârâyana He underwent severe penances to attain control over the senses. (10) Fifth with the name of Kapila He gave an exposition to the brahmin Âsuri on the nature of metaphysics and the elements of creation as through time the knowledge was lost. (11) Sixth, born as the son of Atri from Anasûyâ who prayed for Him, He lectured to Alarka, Prahlâda and others about the transcendental. (12) Seventh born from Âkûti as Yajn'a, the son of Prajâpati Ruci He, assisted by the godly, ruled over the change of the period of Svâyambhuva Manu together with His son Yama and others. (13) Eighth, from the wife of King Nâbhi, Merudevî He took birth as King Rishabha and showed the path of perfection respected by people of all stages of life. (14) Accepting His ninth incarnation from prayers by the sages, He ruled [as Prithu] the earth for the sake of its cultivation and produces, which made it beautifully attractive. (15) Like a fish [Mâtsya] in the water He kept Vaivasvata Manu after the period of Câkshusha Manu on a boat of protection afloat the waters when the world was deeply inundated. (16) Eleventh as a tortoise [Kurma] He sustained the Mandarâcala Hill of the theists and atheists which served as a pivot in the ocean. (17) Twelfth was Dhanvantari [Lord of medicine] and thirteenth He appeared as an alluring beautiful woman to the atheists while giving nectar to the godly. (18) His fourteenth incarnation He appeared as Nrisimha, who with His nails half as a Lion on His lap tore apart the king of the atheists like a carpenter does cane. (19) Fifteenth He assumed the form of Vâmana [the dwarf-brâhmana] who, from the arena of sacrifice of Mahârâja Bali, begged only for three steps of land, while at heart willing to return to the kingdom of the three worlds. (20)In His sixteenth incarnation [as Bhrigupati] He acted twenty-one times against the ruling class that negated the intelligentsia. (21) Seeing the common people as being less intelligent He seventeenth incarnated as Vyâsadeva from Satyavatî by Parâs'ara Muni, to divide the desire tree of the Veda into several branches. (22) Next He performed superhuman in controlling the Indian Ocean having assumed the form of a divine human being [Râma] in order to act for the sake of the Godly. (23) Nineteenth as well as twentiest He appeared as Balarâma and Krishna from the Vrishni-family and thus Bhagavân removed the burden from the world.(24) Thereafter in the Age of Kali His birth as Lord Buddha from An'jana in Gayâ will take place in order to delude the ones envious with the theists. (25) Following that at the conjunction of two Yugas when there is hardly a ruler found that is not a plunderer, the Lord of Creation will take birth with the name of Kalki as the son of Vishnu Yas'â.
(26) O Twice-born, from the ocean of goodness the incarnations of the Lord are innumerable like the countless streams from thousands of lakes. (27) All the powerful sages, the godly, the Manus and their progeny, as well as the Prajâpatis [founding fathers] are aspects of the Lord. (28) All these are part of Lord Krishna, the Supreme Lord [Bhagavân] in person who gives protection in all ages and worlds against the enemies of the King of Heaven [Indra].

orlando
09 May 2006, 02:39 AM
Now please read how Prabhupada translates and explain verse 23.
By http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/23/en
Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.23

ekonaviḿśe viḿśatime

vṛṣṇiṣu prāpya janmanī

rāma-kṛṣṇāv iti bhuvo

bhagavān aharad bharam

SYNONYMS

ekonaviḿśe — in the nineteenth; viḿśatime — in the twentieth also; vṛṣṇiṣu — in the Vṛṣṇi dynasty; prāpya — having obtained; janmanī — births; rāma — Balarāma; kṛṣṇau — Śrī Kṛṣṇa; iti — thus; bhuvaḥ — of the world; bhagavān — the Personality of Godhead; aharat — removed; bharam — burden.

TRANSLATION

In the nineteenth and twentieth incarnations, the Lord advented Himself as Lord Balarāma and Lord Kṛṣṇa in the family of Vṛṣṇi [the Yadu dynasty], and by so doing He removed the burden of the world.

PURPORT

The specific mention of the word bhagavān in this text indicates that Balarāma and Kṛṣṇa are original forms of the Lord. This will be further explained later. Lord Kṛṣṇa is not an incarnation of the puruṣa, as we learned from the beginning of this chapter. He is directly the original Personality of Godhead, and Balarāma is the first plenary manifestation of the Lord. From Baladeva the first phalanx of plenary expansions, Vāsudeva, Sańkarṣaṇa, Aniruddha and Pradyumna, expands. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is Vāsudeva, and Baladeva is Sańkarṣaṇa.


Please note the Prabhupada's words:The specific mention of the word bhagavān in this text indicates that Balarāma and Kṛṣṇa are original forms of the Lord.

This is not true at all.Lord Krishna is called Bhagavan because He is the purna avatara (complete avatara) of Lord Vishnu.Unlike with other avataras,He has all His powers at 100%.
In Vishnu Purana it is said:
aiSvaryasya samagrasya vIryasya yaSasah Sriyah|
j~nAna vairAgya yogaScaiva shaNNAm bhaga itI'nganA || (V.P.6.5.74)

"He Who possesses the attributes ofaiSvaryam or Lordship, dharma, fame, wealth, j~nAna and vairAgya in full iscalled bhagavAn".

For more datails read the explanation found at http://home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/
563. bhagavAn
a) He Who is worthy of worship.
b) He Who is full of the six attributes
c) He Who knows the origin and the end of all beings.

om bhagavate namah.

a) SrI BhaTTar interprets the nAma asreferring to His being worthy of worship because of His essential nature whichis antagonistic to all defects and which is endowed with all auspiciousqualities. The word bhaga has a special meaning which refers to the sixattributes, but SrI BhaTTar does not use this meaning here to interpret thisnAma, which the other vyAkhyAna kartA-s use. Instead, he gives theinterpretation "He Who is worthy of worship". In amarakOSa vyAkhyAnam,there is a reference to "bhajyata iti bhagah", which seems to fit SrIBhaTTar's interpretation for the current nAma. He uses the reference to the sixattributes in interpreting the next nAma "bhagahA". In support of SrIBhaTTar's interpretation for the current nAma, SrI v.v. rAmAnujan givesreference to AzhvAr aruLicceyal: uyarvaRa uyar nalam uDaiyavan (tiruvAimozhi1.1.1), tIdu il SIr nalam tigazh nAraNan; andam il Adiyam bhagavan (tiruvAimozhi1.3.5).

b) SrI Sa'nkara and other vyAkhyAna kartA-sinterpret the current nAma based on the word bhaga referring to the sixattributes. SrI kRshNa datta bhAradvAj gives the derivation - bhago j~nAnAdishaTkam vidyate niratiSayam yasmin iti bhagavAn - He in whom the six attributes(j~nAna etc.), which are called bhaga-s, are present in perfection and fullnessis called bhagavAn. SrI Sa'nkara gives reference to vishNu purANam supportinghis interpretation:

aiSvaryasya samagrasya vIryasya yaSasah Sriyah|
j~nAna vairAgya yogaScaiva shaNNAm bhaga itI'nganA || (V.P.6.5.74)

"He Who possesses the attributes ofaiSvaryam or Lordship, dharma, fame, wealth, j~nAna and vairAgya in full iscalled bhagavAn". There are differing versions of the Sloka, with dharmasyareplacing vIryasya, "j~nAna vairAgyayoScaiva" replaced by "vairAgyasyAthamokshasya", etc.

SrI rAdhAkRshNa SAstri gives the followingbrief explanation of the six attributes referred to above: - aiSvarya - Thequality of being the Lord of all - He can control and rule over all things atall times, and thus He is the Supreme over all. (na tasya ISe kaScana - tait.AraN. 10.10) - vIrya - The ability to be victorious over any enemy (ugram vIrammahAvishNum) - yaSah - kIrti; Worthy of praise by all without exception (tasyanAma mahad-yaSah - (tait. AraN. 10.1) - SrI - Wealth; He is One Who hasmahAlakshmi always residing as part of Him (Sriyam lakshmIm aupalAm ambikAm gAm)- j~nAna - Because He is the Knower of the past, present, and future and theLord of the three - bhUta bhavya bhavan-nAthah (yah savaj~nah sarvavit yaysj~nAnamayam tapah - muNDako. 1.1.9) - vairAgya - Being unattached to anything (savA ayamAtmA brahma akAma mayah - bRhadA. 4.4.5)

c) SrI Sa'nkara gives an alternateinterpretation as well, also based on another Slokam from SrI vishNu purANam:utpattim pralayam caiva bhUtAnAm Agatim gatim | vetti vidyAm avidyAm ca sa vAcyobhagavAn iti || (V.P. 6.5.78) "He is named bhagavAn who knows the originand the end, the arrival and the exit, of all beings, and also vidyA and avidyA".

orlando
09 May 2006, 02:44 AM
Now please read how Prabhupada translates verse 28.
By http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/28/en
ete cāḿśa-kalāḥ puḿsaḥ

kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam

indrāri-vyākulaḿ lokaḿ

mṛḍayanti yuge yuge

SYNONYMS

ete — all these; ca — and; aḿśa — plenary portions; kalāḥ — portions of the plenary portions; puḿsaḥ — of the Supreme; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; tu — but; bhagavān — the Personality of Godhead; svayam — in person; indra-ari — the enemies of Indra; vyākulam — disturbed; lokam — all the planets; mṛḍayanti — gives protection; yuge yuge — in different ages.

TRANSLATION

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

It should ne enough obvious that one can't trust Prabhupada's translation.
Regards,
Orlando.

Pankaja
09 May 2006, 04:08 AM
All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Çré Kåñëa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.
www.vedabase.net (http://www.vedabase.net) SB:1.3.28

That site you gave changed most of Prabhupada works.

I have to go, have a nice life.

kimtadbrahma
09 May 2006, 07:53 AM
In his assessment that Krishna is the original Deity and Vishnu a secondary manifestation of Krishna, Swami Prabhupada is not just representing his own opinion but rather the doctrine expounded by the Chaitanya Sampradaya (and probably Chaitanya himself), and also by the Pushti Marg followers of Vallabhacharya and the Pranamis as well.

This position is contentious and is at variance with the doctrines taught by other Vaishnava Sampradayas. I would agree that the comment about the use of the word bhagavan in the first verse you refer to is probably an over-interpretation, but the statement ete chamsa kalah pumsah krishnas tu bhagavan svayam is certainly suggestive of the Gaudiya and Pushti Marg position and cannot be dismissed so lightly.

orlando
09 May 2006, 08:39 AM
In his assessment that Krishna is the original Deity and Vishnu a secondary manifestation of Krishna, Swami Prabhupada is not just representing his own opinion but rather the doctrine expounded by the Chaitanya Sampradaya (and probably Chaitanya himself), and also by the Pushti Marg followers of Vallabhacharya and the Pranamis as well.

This position is contentious and is at variance with the doctrines taught by other Vaishnava Sampradayas. I would agree that the comment about the use of the word bhagavan in the first verse you refer to is probably an over-interpretation, but the statement ete chamsa kalah pumsah krishnas tu bhagavan svayam is certainly suggestive of the Gaudiya and Pushti Marg position and cannot be dismissed so lightly.

Namaste.
Shri Kimtadbrahma,at Srimad Bhagavata Purana,Canto 2,Chapter 7,Lord Brahma gives a description of the avataras of Sriman-Narayana.
By http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto2/chapter7.html
(26) When the entire world is in misery from the burden of the soldiers of disbelievers, is He, with His plenary expansion, His beauty and His black hair, whose glorious activities are so difficult to see by the people in general, bound to appear for the sake of the decimation of those atheists. (27) Who possibly else than He could as a child kill a living being that assumed the form of a giant demoness [Pûtanâ] or only being three months old with His leg turn over a cart and also uproot two high rising Arjuna trees? (28) At Vrindâvana [where Krishna grew up] by His merciful glance He brought back to life the cowherd boys and their animals who drank of the poisoned water [of the Yamunâ]. In order to purify [the water] from the excess of the highly potent poison He in the river took pleasure in punishing the snake severely that was lurking there with its venomous tongue. (29) He by His superhuman activity saved all the inhabitants of Vraja [the cowherd-village], that unworried were sleeping that night, from being burnt by the fire that was ablaze in the dry forest. Thus to them [later on, also those cowherdboys] who were sure to see the last of their days, He together with Balarâma proved His unfathomable prowess [delivering them the same way from another fire in the forest] by simply having them closing their eyes. (30) Whatever rope His [foster] mother [Yas'odâ] tried to take to bind her son, time and again proved to be too short and that which she saw when He opened His mouth to the doubting cowherd woman were all the worlds, which convinced her thus another way. (31) Nanda Mahârâja His [fostering] father whom He also saved from the fear for Varuna [the demigod of the waters] and the cowherd men who were held captive in the caves by the son of Maya [a demon] and also the ones [in Vrindâvana] working during the day and sleeping during the night of their hard labor, He surely awarded the highest world of the spiritual sky. (32) When the cowherd men were being stopped in their sacrifices by the king of heaven who caused the downpour of heavy rains, He, desiring to protect the animals in His causeless mercy, being only seven years of age, held up Govardhana Hill for seven days in a row, just like an umbrella playfully with one hand only without getting tired. (33) When in His nightly pastimes in the forest desiring to dance in the silver light of the moon with sweet songs and melodious music He awakened the amorous desires of the wives of Vrajabhûmi [the region of Vrindâvana], He decapitated their kidnapper [a demon known as S'ankhacûda] who was in pursuit of the riches of Kuvera [the heavenly treasurer]. (34-35) All those like Pralamba, Dhenuka, Baka, Kes'î, Arishtha, Cânûra and Mushthika [wrestling for Kamsa], Kuvalayâpîda [the elephant], Kamsa [the demoniac uncle], many foreign kings [like those of Persia], the ape Dvivida, Paundraka and others, as well as kings like S'âlva, Narakâsura, Balvala, Dantavakra, Saptoksha, S'ambara, Vidûratha and Rukmî and all powerful and well equipped as Kâmboja, Matsya, Kuru [the sons of Dhritarâshthra], Sriñjaya, and Kekaya, found their dissociation or would attain to His heavenly abode through either Himself or with His other names, like Baladeva [Krishna's brother], Arjuna or Bhîma.

As far as I know Lord Vishnu takes avatara as Lord Krishna in every Dvapara-yuga.In the different ages Lord acts in different ways.
In fact some stories about Lord Krishna are descripted in a different way in Bhagavata Purana and in Vishnu Purana.
The fifth book of the Vishnu Purana is exclusively occupied with the life of Krishna.

orlando
09 May 2006, 08:47 AM
By reading Chapter 1 of the fifth book of Sri Vishnu Purana you will understand that Lord Vishnu is the source of Lord Krishna.By http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp118.htm
VISHŃU PURÁŃA.
BOOK V.
CHAP. I.
The death of Kansa announced. Earth, oppressed by the Daityas, applies to the gods. They accompany her to Vishńu, who promises to give her relief. Kansa imprisons Vasudeva and Devakí. Vishńu's instructions to Yoganidrá.

MAITREYA. 1--You have related to me a full account of all the different dynasties of kings, and of their successive transactions. I wish


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now to hear a more particular description, holy Rishi, of the portion of Vishńu 2 that came down upon earth, and was born in the family of Yadu. Tell me also what actions he performed in his descent, as a part of a part of the supreme, upon the earth 3.

PARÁŚARA.--I will relate to you, Maitreya, the account which you



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have requested; the birth of a part of a part of Vishńu, and the benefits which his actions conferred upon the world.

Vasudeva formerly married the daughter of Devaka, the illustrious Devakí, a maiden of celestial beauty. After their nuptials, Kansa, the increaser of the race of Bhoja, drove their car as their charioteer. As they were going along, a voice in the sky, sounding aloud and deep as thunder, addressed Kansa, and said, "Fool that you are, the eighth child of the damsel whom you are driving in the car shall take away your life 4!" On hearing this, Kansa drew his sword, and was about to put Devakí to death; but Vasudeva interposed, saying, "Kill not Devakí, great warrior; spare her life, and I will deliver to you every child that she may bring forth." Appeased by which promise, and relying on the character of Vasudeva, Kansa desisted from the attempt.

At that time, Earth, overburdened by her load, repaired to mount Meru to an assembly of the gods, and addressing the divinities, with Brahmá at their head, related in piteous accents all her distress. "Agni," said Earth, "is the progenitor of gold; Súrya, of rays of light 5: the parent and guide of me and of all spheres is the supreme Náráyańa, who is Brahmá, the lord of the lord of patriarchs; the eldest of the eldest born; one with minutes and hours; one with time; having form, though indiscrete. This assemblage of yourselves, O gods, is but a part of him. The sun, the winds, the saints, the Rudras, the Vasus, the Aswins, fire, the patriarch creators of the universe, of whom Atri is the first, all are but forms of the mighty and inscrutable Vishńu. The Yakshas, Rákshasas, Daityas, spirits of evil, serpents, and children of Danu, the singers and nymphs of heaven, are forms of the great spirit, Vishńu. The heavens painted with planets, constellations, and stars; fire, water, wind, and myself, and every perceptible thing; the whole universe itself--consists of Vishńu. The multifarious forms of that manifold being encounter



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and succeed one another, night and day, like the waves of the sea. At this present season many demons, of whom Kálanemi is the chief, have overrun, and continually harrass, the region of mortals. The great Asura Kálanemi 6, that was killed by the powerful Vishńu, has revived in Kansa, the son of Ugrasena, and many other mighty demons, more than I can enumerate, as Arisht́a, Dhenuka, Keśin, Pralamba, Naraka, Sunda, and the fierce Báńa, the son of Bali 7, are born in the palaces of kings. Countless hosts of proud and powerful spirits, chiefs of the demon race, assuming celestial forms, now walk the earth; and, unable to support myself beneath the incumbent load, I come to you for succour. Illustrious deities, do you so act that I may be relieved from my burden, lest helpless I sink into the nethermost abyss."

When the gods had heard these complaints of Earth, Brahmá at their request explained to them how her burden might be lightened. "Celestials," said Brahmá, "all that Earth has said is undoubtedly true. I, Mahádeva, and you all, are but Náráyańa; but the impersonations of his power are for ever mutually fluctuating, and excess or diminution is indicated by the predominance of the strong, and the depression of the weak. Come therefore, let us repair to the northern coast of the milky sea, and having glorified Hari, report to him what we have heard. He, who is the spirit of all, and of whom the universe consists, constantly, for the sake of Earth, descends in a small portion of his essence to establish righteousness below." Accordingly Brahmá, attended by the gods, went to the milky sea, and there, with minds intent upon him, praised him whose emblem is Garud́a.

"O thou," said Brahmá, "who art distinct from holy writ 8; whose double nature is twofold wisdom 9, superior and inferior, and who art the





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essential end of both; who, alike devoid and possessed of form, art the twofold Brahma 10; smallest of the least, and largest of the large; all, and knowing all things; that spirit which is language; that spirit which is supreme; that which is Brahma, and of which Brahma is composed! Thou art the Rich, the Yajush, the Sáman, and the Atharvan Vedas. Thou art accentuation, ritual, signification, metre, and astronomy; history, tradition, grammar, theology, logic, and law: thou who art inscrutable. Thou art the doctrine that investigates the distinctions between soul, and life, and body, and matter endowed with qualities 11; and that doctrine is nothing else but thy nature inherent in and presiding over it 12. Thou art imperceptible, indescribable, inconceivable; without name, or colour, or hands, or feet; pure, eternal, and infinite. Thou hearest without ears, and seest without eyes. Thou art one and multiform. Thou movest without feet; thou seizest without hands. Thou knowest all, but art not by all to be known 13. He who beholds thee as the most subtile of atoms, not substantially existent, puts an end to ignorance; and final emancipation is the reward of that wise man whose understanding cherishes nothing other than thee in the form of supreme delight 14. Thou art the common centre of all 15, the protector of the







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world; and all beings exist in thee: all that has been, or will be, thou art. Thou art the atom of atoms; thou art spirit; thou only art distinct from primeval nature 16. Thou, as the lord of fire in four manifestations 17, givest light and fertility to Earth. Thou art the eye of all, and wearer of many shapes, and unobstructedly traversest the three regions of the universe. As fire, though one, is variously kindled, and, though unchangeable in its essence, is modified in many ways, so thou, lord, who art one omnipresent form, takest upon thee all modifications that exist. Thou art one supreme; thou art that supreme and eternal state which the wise behold with the eye of knowledge. There is nothing else but thou, O lord; nothing else has been or will be. Thou art both discrete and indiscrete, universal and individual, omniscient, all-seeing, omnipotent, possessed of all wisdom and strength and power. Thou art liable neither to diminution nor increase; thou art independent and without beginning; thou art the subjugator of all. Thou art unaffected by weariness, sloth, fear, anger, or desire. Thou art free from soil, supreme, merciful 18, uniform, undecaying, lord over all, the stay of all, the fountain of light, imperishable. To thee, uninvested by material envelopes 19, unexposed to sensible imaginings, aggregate of elemental substance 20, spirit supreme, be adoration. Thou assumest a shape, O pervader of the universe, not as the consequence of virtue or vice, nor from any mixture of the two, but for the sole object of maintaining piety in the world 21."

orlando
09 May 2006, 08:49 AM
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The unborn, universal Hari, having heard with his mental ear these eulogiums, was pleased, and thus spake to Brahmá: "Tell me, Brahmá, what you and the gods desire: speak boldly, certain of success." Brahmá, beholding the divine, universal form of Hari, quickly prostrated himself, and again renewed his praises. "Glory to thee, the thousand-formed, the thousand-armed, the many-visaged, many-footed; to thee, the illimitable author of creation, preservation, and destruction; most subtile of the subtile, most vast of the great: to thee, who art nature, intellect, and consciousness; and who art other spirit even than the spiritual root of those principles 22. Do thou shew favour upon us. Behold, lord, this earth, oppressed by mighty Asuras, and shaken to her mountain basements, comes to thee, who art her invincible defender, to be relieved from her burden. Behold me, Indra, the Aswins, Varuńa, and Yama, the Rudras, the Vasus, the suns, the winds, fire, and all other celestials, prepared to execute whatever thou shalt will that we shall do. Do thou, in whom there is no imperfection, O sovereign of the deities, give thy orders to thy servants: lo, we are ready."

When Brahmá had ended, the supreme lord plucked off two hairs, one white and one black, and said to the gods, "These my hairs shall descend upon earth, and shall relieve her of the burden of her distress 23.



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[paragraph continues] Let all the gods also, in their own portions, go down to earth, and wage war with the haughty Asuras, who are there incorporate, and who shall every one of them be destroyed. Doubt not of this: they shall perish before the withering glance of mine eyes. This my (black) hair shall be impersonated in the eighth conception of the wife of Vasudeva, Devakí, who is like a goddess; and shall slay Kansa, who is the demon Kálanemi." Thus having spoken, Hari disappeared; and the gods bowing to him, though invisible, returned to the summit of mount Meru, from whence they descended upon earth.

The Muni Nárada informed Kansa that the supporter of the earth, Vishńu, would be the eighth child of Devakí; and his wrath being excited by this report, he placed both Vasudeva and Devakí in confinement. Agreeably to his promise, the former delivered to Kansa each infant as soon as it was born. It is said that these, to the number of six, were the children of the demon Hirańyakaśipu, who were introduced into the womb of Devakí, at the command of Vishńu, during the hours of Devakí's repose, by the goddess Yoganidrá 24, the great illusory energy of Vishńu, by whom, as utter ignorance, the whole world is beguiled. To her Vishńu said, "Go, Nidrá, to the nether regions, and by my command conduct successively six of their princes to be conceived of Devakí. When these shall have been put to death by Kansa, the seventh conception shall be formed of a portion of Śesha, who is a part of me; and this you shall transfer, before the time of birth, to Rohińí, another wife of Vasudeva, who resides at Gokula. The report shall run, that Devakí miscarries, through the anxiety of imprisonment, and dread of the Rájá of the Bhojas. From being extracted from his mother's womb, the child shall be known by the name of Sankarshańa, and he shall be valiant and strong, and like the peak of the white mountain in


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bulk and complexion. I will myself become incarnate in the eighth conception of Devakí; and you shall immediately take a similar character as the embryo offspring of Yaśodá. In the night of the eighth lunation of the dark half of the month Nabhas, in the season of the rains, I shall be born. You shall receive birth on the ninth. Impelled and aided by my power, Vasudeva shall bear me to the bed of Yaśodá, and you to that of Devakí. Kansa shall take you, and hold you up to dash you against a stone; but you shall escape from his grasp into the sky, where the hundred-eyed Indra shall meet and do homage to you, through reverence for me, and shall bow before you, and acknowledge you as his sister. Having slain Sumbha, Nisumbha, and numerous other demons 25, you shall sanctify the earth in many places 26. Thou art wealth, progeny, fame, patience, heaven and earth, fortitude, modesty, nutrition, dawn, and every other female (form or property). They who address thee morning and afternoon with reverence and praise, and call thee Áryá, Durgá, Vedagarbhá, Ambiká, Bhadrá, Bhadrakálí, Kshemí, or Kshemankarí, shall receive from my bounty whatever they desire. Propitiated with offerings of wine and flesh and various viands, thou shalt bestow upon mankind all their prayers. Through my favour all men shall ever have faith in thee. Assured of this, go, goddess, and execute my commands."
As you did read Lord Krishna came from the black hair of Lord Vishnu.The same account of the origin of Krishna is given in the Adi Parva section of Mahabharata.

Regards,
Orlando.

kimtadbrahma
09 May 2006, 12:03 PM
Orlando, as you point out there are innumerable quotations from the Vaishnava Puranas and the Mahabharata that indicate that Krishna is an avatar of Narayana. However, Gaudiya and Pushti Marg theology is quite complex on this issue. As I recall and understand it, they contend that Krishna who restores dharma to earth by destroying asuras and bringing about the triumph of the Pandavas is a descent of Narayana, but Krishna in his Vrindavan identity is the Supreme God. They claim that the Supreme Deity merely enjoys lila with his bhaktas, as Krishna does in Vraja, and that he adopts the identity of Narayana in order to fulfil various functions in relation to this world. In other words when there is work to do like creating and maintaining this world.

In this way it is argued that Krishna has a dual identity and this explains the references such as those you have cited for his being a descent of Vishnu. However, they point to the ete chamsa kalah sloka to argue for the position that Vrindaban Krishna is the ultimate Supreme Deity. I am not saying that I agree with this position at all, but it is quite widely held in North India by a number of Vaishnava sampradayas.

orlando
09 May 2006, 12:18 PM
Shri Kimtadbrahma please note that Gaudiya-Vaishnavas have a scripture called Brahma-Samhita.They say that Shri Chaitanya discovered it in a temple.You may read it at http://vedabase.net/bs/5/en
Other sampradayas don't accept this scriptures as authentic.

ChooseWhatever
23 May 2008, 03:16 PM
Avatara means descend, not incarnation as the Latin derived languages define it as.

So Krishna being an avatar of Vishnu means that Vishnu descends as Krishna. Which isn't disagreeable because Vishnu and Krishna is the same person in different bodies.

However, this doesn't mean that Krishna came from Vishnu.

The easiest way to understand this is that it was Lord Krishna who spoke the Bhagavad Gita, not Lord Vishnu, or Lord Rama, or Lord Nrismha, or Lord Vamanadeva.

It was Lord Krishna.

Saying that it was Lord Vishnu in the form of Lord Krishna who spoke the Gita also does not make sense because it was still Lord Krishna who spoke it, and He always said "I" or "My" not "Lord Vishnu."

If Vishnu was the original, then He should have spoken the Gita and not let "His expansion" do it.

santosh
02 January 2009, 04:52 PM
Hare Krishna,

Lord Krishna is the original Vishnu. All different forms of Lord Vishnu, Lord Narayan, all other Guna Avatars, Purusha Avatars come from Lord Krishna.
This is clearly explained in Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya.

Srila Prabhupada's translation of Srimad Bhagavatam is fully accurate and bonafide as it is fully corroborated with the translation and commentaries by previous Vaishnava Acharyas.

In Brahma Samhita, Lord Brahma Himself says:

īśvaraḥ (http://vedabase.net/i/isvarah) paramaḥ (http://vedabase.net/p/paramah) kṛṣṇaḥ (http://vedabase.net/k/krsnah)
sac-cid-ānanda (http://vedabase.net/a/ananda)-vigrahaḥ (http://vedabase.net/v/vigrahah)
anādir ādir govindaḥ (http://vedabase.net/g/govindah)
sarva (http://vedabase.net/s/sarva)-kāraṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/karana)-kāraṇam (http://vedabase.net/k/karanam)

Translation:

Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna) who is known as Govinda (http://vedabase.net/g/govinda) is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

Also Srimad Bhagavatam says "Krishnas Tu Bhagawan Swayam".

Please refer to the story of Brahma Vimohan Lila in Srimad Bhagavatam where Lord Krishna showed unlimited four handed forms to Lord Brahma.

Lord Krishna is Lord Vishnu or Lord Narayan. Lord Krishna takes the form of Lord Vishnu for the purpose of undertaking the duty of maintaining unlimited number of Universes.

atanu
03 January 2009, 03:55 AM
Hare Krishna,

Also Srimad Bhagavatam says "Krishnas Tu Bhagawan Swayam".



Namaste Santosh,

Agreed. But does it not mean that Krishna is that Bhagwan swayam, whom sages at different times and places have called by different names?

For example:
Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |
yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa

O Bhagavan! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

Om

santosh
06 January 2009, 05:01 PM
Hare Krishna atanuji,

Lord Krishna has millions of names. Also Lord has innumerable expansions. In Bhagavat Puran it says just as there are unlimited number of waves in the ocean water, similarly there are unlimited number of expansions of the Lord, only a few are listed in our scriptures because we can not handle all the details.

What is important is that if devotion to Lord Shiva is purifying for you, then that's the most important thing, because that's what is working for you.

There is very inspiring story of Narsih Mehta. He was seeking the truth, so someone instructed him about devotion to Shiva. So Narsih did that and pleased Lord Shiva. So Lord Shiva gave Narsih his Darshan and then further instructed him.

Lord Shiva and His Abode of Kailash are eternal. They are not annhilated at the time of pralaya or mahapralaya.

ritueshwara
25 March 2009, 09:31 AM
Yes lord Krishna is the avtar of Sri Maha Vishnu..... :)

proudhindu
10 September 2009, 11:34 PM
There sre some perceptional differences between various sampradayas regarding who is the Source: Krishna or Vishnu.

Does it make any difference to a Bhaktha? The answer in most cases is probably a Big no.

Haribol.

atanu
11 September 2009, 12:53 AM
Hare Krishna atanuji,

Lord Krishna has millions of names. Also Lord has innumerable expansions. In Bhagavat Puran it says just as there are unlimited number of waves in the ocean water, similarly there are unlimited number of expansions of the Lord, only a few are listed in our scriptures because we can not handle all the details.

What is important is that if devotion to Lord Shiva is purifying for you, then that's the most important thing, because that's what is working for you.

There is very inspiring story of Narsih Mehta. He was seeking the truth, so someone instructed him about devotion to Shiva. So Narsih did that and pleased Lord Shiva. So Lord Shiva gave Narsih his Darshan and then further instructed him.

Lord Shiva and His Abode of Kailash are eternal. They are not annhilated at the time of pralaya or mahapralaya.

Namaste santosh,

It is all fine. But I do not begin at Purana and Itihasa.

Om Namah Shivaya

bhaktajan
11 September 2009, 04:31 PM
Lord Krishna is the original Vishnu.

MahaVishnu is an expansion of Narayan---Narayan is an expansion of Balarama ---Balarama is an expansion of his Brother Krishna. Krishna is Srimati Radharani's beloved.

"Krishnas Tu Bhagawan Swayam" says it all, without much need of sanskrit scholarship.

kd gupta
12 September 2009, 12:23 AM
There is nothing in universe which does not contain Parmatma, vaadah pravadataamaham.He is logic among controversialists.
Who is Shankara…Rudraanaam shankarashchaasmi, And, among the Rudras He is Shankara;

I waited much for my confusion, nobody cared to answer, so How a Yogi and Warrior for right cause are equal ? see from gita itself…

Yatsaankhyaih praapyate sthaanam tad yogair api gamyate;
Ekam saankhyam cha yogam cha yah pashyati sa pashyati.
That place which is reached by the Sankhyas or the Jnanis is reached by the (Karma)
Yogis. He sees who sees knowledge and the performance of action (Karma Yoga) as one .

It is Krsnastu Bhagwan Swayam.

atanu
12 September 2009, 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by kd gupta http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=32451#post32451)
…Rudraanaam shankarashchaasmi, And, among the Rudras He is Shankara;
I waited much for my confusion, nobody cared to answer, so How a Yogi and Warrior for right cause are equal ? see from gita itself…

Yatsaankhyaih praapyate sthaanam tad yogair api gamyate;
Ekam saankhyam cha yogam cha yah pashyati sa pashyati.
That place which is reached by the Sankhyas or the Jnanis is reached by the (Karma)
Yogis. He sees who sees knowledge and the performance of action (Karma Yoga) as one .
It is Krsnastu Bhagwan Swayam.
Namaste KD ji,

I am intervening because of carelessness with a Gita verse. You teach good things, apparently. Yet, 'Rudraanaam shankarashchaasmi' means 'Among the Rudras, I am Shankara'. That indeed is nice. Rudras and Maruts are the sons of rudrA and prishni -- the spotted cow of heaven. Rudraanaam refer to the Rudras, the sons and not to the pitA. Since rudro maharishi has no second to Him.

Eka eva rudro na dvitiyaya
Rudra is the sole one, there is no second
Kṛṣṇa Yajur Ved - Taittirīya saṁhitā 1.8.6.iii


In mind He creates vak, His consort, associated with whom He becomes the pitA of all the Universes. But he is Eka eva rudro na dvitiyaya.
Rig Veda eulogises the pitA, Shiva as below:




Rig Veda
1.187.01 I glorify Father, the great, the upholder, the strong, by whose invigorating power Trita slew the mutilated Vr.tra.

1.187.02 Savoury Pita_; sweet pita_; we worship you; become our protector.

1.187.03 Come to us, Pita_, Shiv with auspicious aids; a source of delight; not unpalatable; a friend well respected, and having none but agreeable properties

1.187.04 Your flavours, Pita_, are diffused through the regions, as the winds are spread through the sky.

1.187.05 Those (men), Pita_, (are the enjoyers of your bounty), who are your distributors, most sweet Pita_, (to others); they who are the relishers of your flavours, are as if they had stiff necks.

1.187.06 The thoughts of the mighty gods are fixed, Pita_, upon you; by your kind and intelligent assistance, (Indra) slew Ahi.

1.187.07 When, Pita_, this (product) of the water-wealthy clouds, (the rain), arrives; then do you, sweet Pita_, be at hand with sufficiency for our eating.

1.187.08 And since we enjoy the abundance of the waters and the plants; therefore, Body, do you grow fat.

1.187.09 And since we enjoy, Soma, your mixture with boiled milk or boiled barley; therefore, Body, do you grow fat.

1.187.10 Vegetable cake of fried meal, do you be substantial, wholesome, and invigorating; and, Body, do you grow fat.

1.187.11 We extract from you, Pita_, by our praises, (the sacrificial food), as cows yield butter for oblation; from you, who are exhilarating to the gods; exhilarating also to us.

Whereas the pitA, auspicious Shiva is taught in the Vedas as the power, intelligence and sustenance of all Heroes such as Indra et al., but the foolish western translators have said that Shiva is not Vedic. And many of us have believed them.

Eka eva rudro na dvitiyaya
Rudra is the sole one, there is no second
Kṛṣṇa Yajur Ved - Taittirīya saṁhitā 1.8.6.iii



People who have not the knowledge of Upanishads are confounded. "Well", they say, " how can the above be true? Do we not see Rudra and other devas in Puranas?".

What is Advaita Turya, that alone is the revealed Pragnya Ghana (still Eko and apparently Dark). Pragnya Ghana, the shushupti, calls every one to rest and sustains every one. It also pushes out the beings to experience the Tajjassa (the Dream world) and the Vaisvanaro (the waking world) as per each one's desire.

The eko Pragnya Ghana develops into Hiraynagarbha -Brahman cosmically and the dream world of Tajjassa micro-cosmically.

That same dream world leads to the world of Mahat and Virat (cosmically) and Agni-vaisvanaro (micro-cosmically).
----------------------------------------------

The same Advaita Turya shivo atman is situated as Lord in the three stations. The complexity of Gods is not understood fully, till one comprehends one's own Deep Sleep, Dream, and Waking states. Gods are many here.


Om

proudhindu
12 September 2009, 04:14 PM
Atanu posted some Dubious translations in post 24 with regards to Rigveda.
The Sanskrit versions are as follows

Rv:1:87:1
पितुं नु सतोषं महो धर्माणं तविषीम |
यस्य तरितो वयोजसा वर्त्रं विपर्वमर्दयत ||

Rv:1:87:2
सवादो पितो मधो पितो वयं तवा वव्र्महे |
अस्माकमविता भव ||

Translations provided by Atanu

Rig Veda
1.187.01 I glorify Father, the great, the upholder, the strong, by whose invigorating power Trita slew the mutilated Vr.tra.

1.187.02 Savoury Pita_; sweet pita_; we worship you; become our protector.


There is no mention of father or Pita in the above verses.

These are one of those verses in Vedas which are undecipherable.

The words पितुं and पितो are different from the word पिता (Father)

proudhindu
12 September 2009, 04:41 PM
Continuing with post above and referring to Post 24

It has to be made clear that there is no mention of a seperate Diety named Shiva in any of the 4 Vedas;

Atanu's Translation

187.03 Come to us, Pita_, Shiv with auspicious aids; a source of delight; not unpalatable; a friend well respected, and having none but agreeable properties

The Sanskrit Version

उप नः पितवा चर शिवः
शिवाभिरूतिभिः |
मयोभुरद्विषेण्यः सखा सुशेवो अद्वयाः

There are two words here शिव and शिवाभिरूतिभ

शिव means Auspicious.

पितवा once again is not FATHER(PITA)

In the RIGVEDA Indra was called Shiv-शिव(Auspicious)

rv 6:45:17

यो गर्णतामिदासिथापिरूती शिवः सखा |
स तवंन इन्द्र मर्ळय



And The slayer of Vrtra happens to be Indra in most of the verses in rigveda and Yazurveda:

atanu
12 September 2009, 09:53 PM
Continuing with post above and referring to Post 24

It has to be made clear that there is no mention of a seperate Diety named Shiva in any of the 4 Vedas;

Atanu's Translation

187.03 Come to us, Pita_, Shiv with auspicious aids; a source of delight; not unpalatable; a friend well respected, and having none but agreeable properties
The Sanskrit Version
उप नः पितवा चर शिवः
शिवाभिरूतिभिः |
मयोभुरद्विषेण्यः सखा सुशेवो अद्वयाः
There are two words here शिव and शिवाभिरूतिभ
शिव means Auspicious.
पितवा once again is not FATHER(PITA)
In the RIGVEDA Indra was called Shiv-शिव(Auspicious)
rv 6:45:17
यो गर्णतामिदासिथापिरूती शिवः सखा |
स तवंन इन्द्र मर्ळय

And The slaye of Vrtra happens to be Indra in most of the verses in rigveda and Yazurveda:


Namaste Proud,

The translation is from Sarwasati Project and not mine.

The light that never goes down, which is of yellow hue is also the sweet progenitor of all, whose auspicious energy is called Soma. It cannot be a separate deity -- that is the point. It is the substratum. But as Jabala Upanishad teaches that unworshippable substratum is is Ishwara situtated in Varanasi -- in the junction between two eyes above the bridge of the nose.

The slayer of Vrtra is definitely Indra. But there are many verses in Veda which clarify that it was Agni and Soma who slew Vrtra. It was Brihaspati who guided Indra.

And the cited verse calrify that the intelligent input of the yellow hued pitA helps Indra slay vrtra. There is no abnormality in this. Since Keno Upanishad also chastises Agni, Vayu, and Indra on their pride.

Om Namah Shivaya