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skhandelwal
06 January 2008, 12:52 PM
Notice, I am looking for Madhyam Marga here....I found little guidance as "All acts are sacred", and "Satisfy your pleasures and don't worry about the consequences".

But I want the whole package.

Znanna
06 January 2008, 02:25 PM
I would suggest you study the Shakta hymns (like Soundarya Lahari, for example) for starters.




ZN

Arjuna
23 April 2008, 04:03 PM
Notice, I am looking for Madhyam Marga here....I found little guidance as "All acts are sacred", and "Satisfy your pleasures and don't worry about the consequences".

But I want the whole package.

There is NO Tantra without the Guru. Following books won't bring the proper understanding. All virachara level dicta of tha Agamas are meant for those who have adhikara for that.

Znanna
23 April 2008, 09:55 PM
There is NO Tantra without the Guru. Following books won't bring the proper understanding. All virachara level dicta of tha Agamas are meant for those who have adhikara for that.

With all due respects,

While I understand that Tantra is tradition as much as communication, I am of the opinion that intermediary between supplicant and Godz is not required if one is willing to sacrifice Self.

The hymns are the most explicit text of methodology I've encountered.

ZN
/no parampara

yajvan
24 April 2008, 12:17 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


There is NO Tantra without the Guru. Following books won't bring the proper understanding. All virachara level dicta of tha Agamas are meant for those who have adhikara for that.

Namaste Arjuna,
do you believe this to be true for both left-handed and right-handed tantra?

pranams

Arjuna
24 April 2008, 04:14 AM
do you believe this to be true for both left-handed and right-handed tantra?

2 Yajvan:
The whole system of hinduism is based on studying from acharyas and gurus. Amnaya exists as a flow of grace and knowledge via the parampara. There is no separate right and left handed tantrism if we speak about spiritual path as such, since right handed is preliminary stage for the left. And all starts from the diksha.

2 Znanna:
Yes, there is such a thing as direct initiation from the yoginis, powers of Consciousness. But that is an exception. The thing is that sole decent of grace is usually not enough, since one has to get methods how to develop the potential that was awakened in him/her. Also it is the normal case that when shaktipata occurs, Guru appears. In fact the diksha is shaktipata, and shaktipata is directly from Bhagavati. But in practice Guru is required.
Also this idea of "spontaneous initiation" when stressed is quite harmful since it gives grounds for every bill and dick to proclaim his authority and cheat people. I know examples of this sad tendency.

yajvan
24 April 2008, 12:33 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Arjuna


regarding
There is no separate right and left handed tantrism if we speak about spiritual path as such yes, I concur.

regarding your response to Z

Yes, there is such a thing as direct initiation from the yoginis, powers of Consciousness. But that is an exception. The thing is that sole decent of grace is usually not enough, since one has to get methods how to develop the potential that was awakened in him/her. Also it is the normal case that when shaktipata occurs, Guru appears. In fact the diksha is shaktipata, and shaktipata is directly from Bhagavati. But in practice Guru is required.

Let me offer a few comments. I do not think this is at all opposed to what you have offered, perhaps even extension of what you have mentioned to to Z.

This has much to do with the native him-herself I believe and the type of aspirant in question:
aprabuddha - living in ignorance, with no desire for yoga or being awakened.
prabuddha - on the road to awaking
aprabuddha - some call suprabuddha The person that experinces spanda, pure consciousness; some like to call it the un-interrupted flow of this awareness.
These are called out in the Spanda-kArikAs 1.17-1.20.

I offer these as the adjunct to various upAyas ( the means) that can be experienced and/or practiced.
From a Kasmir Shaivism there are 3 upayas for taking individual consciousness to that of Fullness of Being, To Brahman, to God Consciousness. As you are most astutely aware; the following are offered for continunity:

Sambhavopaya [Sambhava - upaya] - this is considered the highest means
Saktopaya - this is considered the middle means
Anavopaya - this is considered entry levelYet there is one more also - there is anupAya. Own would argue that this in fact is not a upAya, as it is positioned as 'no upAya' - that is the native has to do nothing, be as you are. This anupAya awakening to Reality is done by ananda sakti of Siva, and comes to the native with out much doing. Some then call it AnandopAya.

Yet it is my contention that 'nothing be done' is perhaps applies in this life, but in past births one prepared the soil via various upAyas for this Grace to descend upon the native.

Also - the guru in fact may be needed, but more for confirmation. That this level of Being, this Fullness ( bhuma) is in fact the Reality of Brahman and alls well. This is how my teacher explained it to me, and why the bond of sisya+guru becomes so strong.

pranams

yajvan
06 August 2008, 06:50 PM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~

Notice, I am looking for Madhyam Marga here....I found little guidance as "All acts are sacred", and "Satisfy your pleasures and don't worry about the consequences".
Namaste

Some time back skhandelwal offered the above post... I thought to re-address this tangentially. You will see what I mean in a second.

The notion here was madhya mārga or central (madya) + path (mārga) as it regards to tantra.

This is very interesting as many suggest it depends upon the behavior/characteristics of the adhīkāri¹ - the native that is pursing the inward development of one's sādhana.

The left or the right mārga is native-aspirant centric. What are these called? Dakṣiṇa mārga and vāma mārga.

I find dakṣiṇa delightful as it is defined as right-handed but also south facing. Most find the direction of the South inauspicious. Yet if we click down just one more level there is the beauty of this word. If you look or face east you will note to your right is the South direction, hence right facing.
This South direction is owned by Mars, considered fiery in nature and tamo-guna. Mars also aligns with Bagalāmukhi of the daśa mahāvidyā¹. Yet Mars is the brahmacarya e.g. Hanumanji, courage, agni, the kśatriya in time of need, valour; He is generous, bold, enthusiastic and gives robust health.

Vāma mārga is the left hand way; Vāma is pleasant and agreeable, yet also means vomiting.:o

So the question becomes that of the aspirant wishing to move his/her spiritual development forward... some think from bhukti to mukti - that of enjoyment and 'feeding' the senses to mukti that of liberation.

The nature of the aspirant needs to be considered... is one starting at the paśu level ( of animal instincts)? or rajasic or satvic? Pending these tendencies the approach (left-or-right) may be in order.

Vāma mārga is greatly misunderstood. I see this in my readings, but do not have practical experience. You will hear of drinking and meat eating, all that. Yet as my studies inform me, these notions are symbols (saṃketa). Like drinking - it is the intoxication of the Spirit, the Divine vs. the inebriated state of dis-function.

It is said only the vīra ( the hero/warrior) is competent to follow this vāma mārga approach. It's suggested the slightest deviation off the path leads to the aspirants downfall of his/her sadhana.

Left-or-right ? It depends. It would be a mistake to think, if vāma mārga then one would only follow Kālī-kulam and if Dakṣiṇa mārga one follows Śrī-kulam.

pranams

words and references

madhya मध्य - middlemost, central, intermediate
mārga कार - seeking, search, tracing out; a way, manner
adhīkāri - adhī अधी - to turn the mind inwards; to know, know by heart; kāri and kāra - kāri कारि action, act, work; an artist, artificer, mechanic; also raising hymns of praise
vāma वाम - lovely, dear, pleasant, agreeable, fair, beautiful, splendid ; also the act of vomiting; the left hand, or left hand way;
dakṣiṇa दक्षिण- situated to the south, turned or directed southward; the righthand or higher doctrine ; straightforward , candid, sincere, pleasing, compliant
vīra वीर - a brave man; heroic, powerful, strong, excellent,
More on Bagalāmukhi can be found here : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=24003&postcount=10

sm78
07 August 2008, 02:51 AM
Vāma mārga is greatly misunderstood. I see this in my readings, but do not have practical experience. You will hear of drinking and meat eating, all that. Yet as my studies inform me, these notions are symbols (saṃketa). Like drinking - it is the intoxication of the Spirit, the Divine vs. the inebriated state of dis-function.

Symbolic interpretations are there, but rahasya puja is also cent percent real. Tantras do put vama marga as superior to dakshina (infact they are not different paths). So if one go by Tantras alone, one has to understand vama marga as it is. If one sees Tantras in as a part of vedic dharma and interpret tantras accordingly, things might be seen differently.

At the end of the day: Scriptures can be interpreted (and more importantly put to use) only according to the sampradaya one belongs to and its only the individuals adhikara which qualifies one for that sampradaya.

yajvan
07 August 2008, 05:53 PM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~


Symbolic interpretations are there, but rahasya puja is also cent percent real. Tantras do put vama marga as superior to dakshina (infact they are not different paths). So if one go by Tantras alone, one has to understand vama marga as it is. If one sees Tantras in as a part of vedic dharma and interpret tantras accordingly, things might be seen differently.

At the end of the day: Scriptures can be interpreted (and more importantly put to use) only according to the sampradaya one belongs to and its only the individuals adhikara which qualifies one for that sampradaya.

Namaste singhi,

thank you for your post. Can you give some examples of rahasya puja , what you have seen, the methods, etc.

pranams

sm78
08 August 2008, 02:39 AM
Namaste singhi,

thank you for your post. Can you give some examples of rahasya puja , what you have seen, the methods, etc.

pranams

Namaste Yajvan,

I don't have the adhikara (and inclination) to witness or participate in such activities, but I have met and read works of those who practice/practiced rahasya puja and my conclusion was that pancha makara proyaga is not at all symbolic for many lineages and there is no reason to be as such.

One (perhaves) good source to "read" rahasya puja paddhati is "Tantrokta Rahasya Puja Paddhati" published from kamakhya peeth assam (but in written in bengali).

Srikantha
13 August 2008, 09:12 AM
Just a addition- The Kashmiri Shaivas at least were not so rigid about "Diksha" particularly in the sense of the Parashurama Kalpasutras.

The Kalpasutras go into the ritualistic nature of the process of Diksha and most adherents of Tantricism believe that this is a mere part of the process. Diksha as discussed before implies the provision of knowledge [spiritual, practical, philsophical- however you want to define it] which replaces ignorance. So it is subjective, speculative and at times sporadic when discussing a particular lineage; and comparing it to several others.

Within the Pratyabhijna school, there is an observation known as Pratyabhajana- which is recognition of Shiva without any official Diksha. This was observed multiple times according to some modern commentators, within the history of teachers and accomplished/famous practitioners of this school.

This does not take away from the importance of a Guru and tradition. There are exceptional people in all walks of life, we can apply this to spirituality [quite logically as well] too. However, to consider one's self as exceptional without empirical proof may warrant delusion on the individual's part. I know too well, excellant scholars who have, what I consider as having strayed from the path even with Diksha. So the system is not perfect either way.

No one here can demonstrate any truth in any darshana or paramparic knowledge, since, if it was so clearly self evident then there would be no need for people to participate in forums. There is absolutely no authority or strict rule which governs Tantricism, just when it is put into the framework of a parampara that one encounters "rules" and protocol. I am not against it, but I am not for it either, unless it proves itself to be useful in some way.