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skhandelwal
07 January 2008, 11:05 AM
How do I open it? Since it requires being completely egoless(desire/motiveless), only then you can look into other people's mind.(when you have lost your own perspective), it provides psychic abilites. It also makes you timeless.(not able to travel in time yet)...but being able to tell the past and future....and the ability to feel as if you are out of time.

*I hate kundalini method...I want something that I can tell happening....

So I guess the real question is, how do I become unjudgmental?

If you have any other methods, please offer.

Thank you.

sarabhanga
07 January 2008, 08:24 PM
So I guess the real question is, how do I become unjudgmental?

Simply stop making partial judgements. :)

Rajalakshmi
08 January 2008, 01:32 AM
How do I open it? Since it requires being completely egoless(desire/motiveless), only then you can look into other people's mind.(when you have lost your own perspective), it provides psychic abilites. It also makes you timeless.(not able to travel in time yet)...but being able to tell the past and future....and the ability to feel as if you are out of time.


You have provided answers to your own questions. If you want to read other people's mind, have psychic abilities, be able to travel in time - you must first loose the desire to possess these abilities. When you run away from these desires, these siddhis will run after you. If you run towards these siddhis, they will flee at double the speed.:)

skhandelwal
08 January 2008, 02:25 PM
So what you guys are saying is that desire and judgment are the same thing. Once I become desireless.....I will become judgmentless. And the way I can become desireless by enjoying instead of planning to enjoy....ending procastination. Soon...I will start enjoying only the presence of my awareness....is that what you meant?

yajvan
08 January 2008, 04:45 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


You have provided answers to your own questions. If you want to read other people's mind, have psychic abilities, be able to travel in time - you must first loose the desire to possess these abilities. When you run away from these desires, these siddhis will run after you. If you run towards these siddhis, they will flee at double the speed.:)

Namaste,
I have a different view on this matter. If someone wishes to earn siddhi abilities, there is a method offered, that of Samyama.

Samyama¹ - it is a technique or condition one can practice that is made of the following components, that is, when all three of these components are present (some say exercised) then one is practicing samyama -the three components are dharana, dhyana, and samadhi.

Dharana is this fixity or attenton , consciousness of a single object, idea, etc. and the other senses are withdrawn i.e. do not apprehend the object/idea at hand. some say one-pointed.
Dhyana is that continuous flow of the same knowledge/idea in Dharana - some call this meditation. Continuoous flow of the onepointedness found in Dharana.
Samadhi is when the object of meditation (dhyana) only shines forth in the mind, as if devoid of the thought and is considered concentrated mind ( not concentration or the act of, but again, resolved to simple one pointedness). When these three are in sync, and pointed to the same object of reference, then one is practicing samyama.

why do this? Patanjali muni says by mastering this, than the light of knowledge (prajana) dawns for the sadhu or native. It is by this samyama that one pratices the siddhi's called out in Patanjali work of yoga sutras.

More on this if there is interest, as we hve discussed this last year:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9745&postcount=5


pranams,

1. संयम or saMyama (some write saṅyama) holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control of the senses , self-control; Yet these terms suggest effort,; Excess effort does not support this notion of over-extending or trying, as it suppresses that natural flow of consciousness.

Bob G
08 January 2008, 06:36 PM
some paraphrases:

Be careful what you ask for you may get it!

Opening doors we can not close is risky because of what may come through certain doors... and in some cases only a True Guru working with divine power can help you to recover your mind and soul.

Jai Guru

yajvan
08 January 2008, 07:08 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Be careful what you ask for you may get it!
Opening doors we can not close is risky because of what may come through certain doors... and in some cases only a True Guru working with divine power can help you to recover your mind and soul.

Jai Guru

Hello BG,
Here is the 'magic' with the method of siddhi via samyama. For this to happen, more pure consciousness must be infused into the sadhu. With this pure consciousness, ones 'alignment' to Universal Principles happen. Ones personal dharma begins to unfold.

That is, along the way, the spiritual development of the native pccurs. He/she by this method lays the road to the SELF, to Moksha. The wisdom of Patanjali-muni is superb. He did not offer this method as a way for one to stub their toe, but to unfold their full potential.

This is the wisdom he offers... in this approach what you ask for is desirable - to be possessed of Dharmamega , as he calls it, Cloud-pouring virtue.

Now, Patanjali also recognizes other ways that siddhis may blossom i.e. by birth, happenstance, incantations ( drugs and the like), etc.
I cannot suggest then how a person may use siddhis achieved by these other methods.

pranams,

Bob G
08 January 2008, 08:16 PM
the notion of one gaining power is ego driven.

For if we are true and humble the great Power will have us, not the other way around of us having It.

yajvan
08 January 2008, 08:42 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

the notion of one gaining power is ego driven.

For if we are true and humble the great Power will have us, not the other way around of us having It.

Namaste BobG,

I have a different view on this matter. I eat to gain strength, to gain power so I can continue my sadhana. I read and study to gain power of knowledge, that gives more insight and a greater appreciation of the world I live in. I practice my sadhana to become powerful in heart and mind, and become steadfast in my course of action.

Yet that said, I appreciate what you have mentioned but do not see siddhis when practiced with the intent of Patanjali as an ego driven behavior, suggesting self-aggrandizement.

What one is doing (the sadhu that has handle on this method) is exercising consciousness. Developing the full potential of his/her Being, this is how my teacher has described it.

Now for those that may not practice these techniques, siddhi may equate to power, but siddhi or सिद्धि is accomplishment , performance, fulfilment, and attainment. It is rooted in sidh or सिध् to attain one's aim or object or success. But attainment of what? Of that level of Being that is Universal, of that Bhuma, fullness, Brahman.

IMHO it is one that has made friends with the ego that it serves the sadhu and not the other way around.

Thank you again for your post as you allowed more information on this matter to be discussed.


pranams,

Bob G
08 January 2008, 10:21 PM
Hello Yajvan,

I was not responding to your posts or views per-se although my posts did happen to come in sequence to your posts. I was responding more to the first post by Skhandelwal along with some of the other threads that he has started concerning powers of the mind. For example when he said, and which btw is also more or less sometimes said by other people: "....b/c through Bhakti yoga for instance, a person only gets to divine love (heart chakra)....they don't know the truth or get psychic, telekinetic, etc. powers" (bold blue text and underlines added in refernece to what I'm trying to warn about)


One quick point of feedback regarding the points I think you have expressed in this thread...what you speak of can be a very fine line and without some direct spiritual guidance (beyond reading books) one may cross that line and go in the opposite direction.

Om

sarabhanga
09 January 2008, 12:46 AM
Namaste Yajvan,

saMyama is the perfect self-control of the AtmayAjin who is kAmAvasAyitAra.

saMyama = turya
samAdhi = prAjña
dhyAnam = taijasa
dhAraNa = vaishvAnara

And no effort is implied, with the divine restraints themselves doing all the “work”.

siddhi is “accomplishment, performance, fulfillment, complete attainment, success, hitting the mark, healing the disease, curing the doubt, advantage, validity, settlement, payment, reward, prosperity, fortune, good luck, liquidation, solution, establishment, preparation, maturation, substantiation, settlement, demonstration, proof, indisputable conclusion, readiness, result, decision, adjudication, or determination”. And siddhi is synonymous with saMnyAsa and avadhUta.

siddhi is “supreme felicity, bliss, beatitude, complete sanctification, final emancipation, or perfection”.

And siddhi implies the vanishing of mAyA, the disappearance of any personal self, going away from normal perception, and making one’s self invisible.

The five-fold attainment of aNiman, laghiman, prApti, prAkAmyam, and mahiman, together confers Ishitvam and vashitvam, all of which presupposes kAmAvasAya (the suppression of all passion and desire).

siddhi is “a magical shoe conveying the wearer wherever he likes” (the pAdukA viSNu), and thus “supernatural power attained by magical means”.

And siddhi is “skill, faculty, capability, dexterity, art, efficacy, efficiency, understanding, intellect, becoming clear or intelligible”, and “the display of various good qualities in one person” or “a work of art”.

In advaitavAda, siddhi presupposes kAmAvasAya and saMnyAsa, and the siddhi can never be explicit or independently exerted in the realm of dvaitam. If personal siddhi is desired, it will not be achieved; and if siddhi is displayed, then moksha will be lost.

In dvaitavAda, however, kAmAvasAya is assumed as siddhi itself, with desires being suppressed by their own satisfaction. The siddhi, of course, can only be used for good purpose, with ahiMsA being always presumed. And immortal existence may be gained, but this is an endless existence as a fixed presence amid the flux of continuous dvaitam throughout the manvantaram, but destroyed along with the three worlds at the end, and reborn again in the next manvantaram to try again.

advaitavAda presumes saMnyAsa and aims for prajñA and moksha; while dvaitavAda is vAnaprastha and kshatriya dharma, aiming for AjñA (command and control) and prajana (begetting and growth) and amRta (salvation and non-death) and transcendence to bhuvarloka (into the air), but not the final step of moksha (liberation) and ajana (dissolution and non-birth).

Anyone “wishing for siddhi” should be aware of what they might actually get with such a desire, and also of what they will lose in this deal with the devil of dvaitam.

The siddha king in dvaitam expects a return, and will be reborn and thus die again; while the siddha priest in advaitam expects nothing, and is exempt from rebirth and thus saved from all potential suffering and subsequent deaths.

I fully support Bob’s cautionary comments here ~ there is a very fine line in practice, with quite opposing potential results when that line is crossed. And I wonder at the wisdom of advising that siddhi is available and to be wished for.

The dvaita tantram is an endless loom, with great responsibility for any man who would take its charge; while the advaita tantram casts off all threads of attachment and finally rests unbound and in peace.

yajvan
09 January 2008, 09:29 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

~ there is a very fine line in practice, with quite opposing potential results when that line is crossed. And I wonder at the wisdom of advising that siddhi is available and to be wished for.


Namaste sarabhanga,
thank you for your response and points well made.

Life is a fine line too, no? Good vs. Bad, too much vs. not enough. Give a person a bat, and one person goes and plays baseball, another hits another over the head to steal their pocket book.

Siddhi is no different.
I see your point being made and respect your views and BobG's. Yet one thing I ask you (both) to consider. Siddhi results do not come without purification and the infusion of pure consciousness. This infusion is self-regulating for the sadhu.

It is not as if one opens Patanjaji's book , reads the sutra on being invisible and zap, one is translucent walking in and robbing a bank.

'Perfection' comes with practice, practice purifies the sadhu. Purification infuses proper dharma and right action. From this action the sadhu acts accordingly and within the laws of nature. This is why my POV is what it is.

I have the greatest confidence in Patanjali's metodology and confidence of this self-regulating pure consciousness. Of this I do not have one speck of doubt.

I also wrote with my first post,

If someone wishes to earn siddhi abilities, there is a method offered, that of Samyama.


Siddhis are earned. If some one 'wishes' for these abilties, that is about as far as they will get , a wish. As If I get in an elevator and wish to got to the 5th floor, I can wish all day, but will not move till I push the 5th floor button. Like that, one needs the proper approach. That is sanyama. Samyama comes with time, practice and purification.

I am not talking theory here. I am talking personal practice and instruction. It is key (for me) that when one talks of these matters, that some personal experience has taken place to form a POV. Otherwise the conversation is all throry, with no taste of the practice.


pranams,

yajvan
09 January 2008, 09:33 AM
Hello Yajvan,

I was not responding to your posts or views per-se although my posts did happen to come in sequence to your posts. I was responding more to the first post by Skhandelwal along with some of the other threads that he
has started concerning powers of the mind.

Hello BG,
Okay and makes sense.... I think the discussion has lead to good knowledge and worth the discussion.

Yes, these powers of the mind are attractive to most stepping on to the path and perhaps even enticing as I see it. A vision of possibilities as my teacher talks of it.

pranams

skhandelwal
09 January 2008, 10:09 AM
Ok, interms of chakra, how does siddhis work? I mean if a person gains enlightenment, does he automatically attain all the siddhis? Meaning, is gaining a siddhi matter of opening chakras?

Thanks.

Bob G
09 January 2008, 10:20 AM
Hello Skhandelwal, Thank you for your questions and getting this thread started.

Hello Sarabhanga and Yajvan, Thank you both for your varied and informative posts.

There is a great deal of talk of chakras going on in certain circles. (light-hearted pun intended)
Anyway, I presently have the pov. that most of that interesting mind-stuff if attained can be like possible fringe benefits (so to speak) of deeper realization; but it can also sideline one into all sorts of trouble.

Thus I find the following saying from the Chandogya upanishad to not be pointing at possible fringe benefits but at the core truth (from which such fringe benefits may arise and be well employed instead of being potential mind-traps)

"That Self abides in the heart. The etymological explanation of heart is this: This one (ayam) is in the heart (hridi); therefore It is called the heart (hridayam). He who knows this goes every day in deep sleep to Heaven (i.e. Brahman, dwelling in the heart).


Om

yajvan
09 January 2008, 10:32 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Ok, interms of chakra, how does siddhis work? I mean if a person gains enlightenment, does he automatically attain all the siddhis? Meaning, is gaining a siddhi matter of opening chakras?
Thanks.

Namaste skhandelwal,

You ask how do siddhi's work...to this I refer you to the study of the Patanjali's Yoga Darsana ( or his Yoga Sutras). There is no fast track, no 'minute rice'. All your questions assuming you choose a good translation and author will be answered there.

To start with siddhi's as a spiritual pursuit without laying the foundation for them will not bear fruit. This has been my point for all these posts.

For you to understand these abilities more, is to study. And if you look at Patanjali's book note the 4 chapters (pada). His first chapter is samadhi pada. Patanjali's wisdom shines through with the first chapter to lay the foundation for spiritual growth and is well thought out.

for now this is all I have to contribute on this string.

pranams

yajvan
09 January 2008, 03:05 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

"That Self abides in the heart. The etymological explanation of heart is this: This one (ayam) is in the heart (hridi); therefore It is called the heart (hridayam). He who knows this goes every day in deep sleep to Heaven (i.e. Brahman, dwelling in the heart).


Hello BG,
Is it your opinion that the heart that is discussed in the shastras is the physical heart?

pranams

Bob G
09 January 2008, 05:41 PM
Hello Yajvan,

My opinion is that I'm not a qualified teacher...and to perhaps insert three words of blue into the Upanisad below, and also that you my deeply studied, practiced, and kind Hindu brother - knows well of this particular Upanisad.
--------------------

Chandogya Upanisad, chapter 8

'Now , here in this fort of Brahman there is a small lotus (of the heart), a dwelling place, and within it, a small space. In that space there is something--and that's what you should try to discover, that's what you should seek to perceive.'

If they ask him: 'yes here in this fort of Brahman there is a small lotus, a dwelling place and within it a small space. But what is there in that space that we should try to discover, that we should seek to percieve?'-- He should reply: As vast as the space here around us is, is this space within the heart, and within it are contained both earth and sky, both fire and wind, both sun and moon, both lightning and stars. What belongs here to this space around us, as well as what does not--all that is contained within it.'

If they ask him further: 'In this fort of Brahman is contained the whole world, all beings, and all desires. In that case, when old age overtakes it or when it perishes, what is then left?'--he should reply: 'That does not age, as this body grows old; that is not killed, when this body is slain--that is the real fort of Brahman, in it are contained all desires. That is the self free from evils--free from old age and death, free from sorrow, free from hunger and thirst; the self whose desires and intentions become real.

'As subjects of a king here in this world settle down as instructed, and whatever frontier they covet--whatever region, whatever piece of land--they make a living on it; and as here in this world the possession of a territory won by action comes to an end, so in the hereafter a world won by merit comes to an end.

'So, those here in this world who depart without having discovered the self and those real desires do not obtain complete freedom of movement in any of the worlds, whereas those here in this world who depart after discovering the self and these real desires obtain complete freedom of movement in all worlds.


Good day


Om

Eastern Mind
09 January 2008, 05:57 PM
Namaste All: I've been following this discussion somewhat. I think part of the problem is that sometimes the teachers (Patanjali, Tirumular, perhaps some modern gurus) etc.) who do have the knowledge have given out knowledge via words or books (or books recorded by listeners) to the general public, when in fact much of the general public is nowhere near the point of readiness to understand these concepts. My analogy would be trying to teach calculus to my Grade 6 class. Some may memorize a few details, but they certainly won't understand it. You need a better background than Grade 6, obviously. So if you are still occasionally angry, jealous, fearful, or holding onto any of the other base emotions, then it is clear you haven't mastered any basics. (gotten steadfast at the muladhara) I know from personal experience that sometimes it is difficult for a teacher of any kind to get down to the level of the student. That is why virtue is the first step. That is why I disagree with new agers taking yoga and teaching it without the prerequisites of virtue. I agree with Bob G. that it can lead you to places you're not ready for. Patience is the key. We don't just naturally jump up the chakras. It takes persistent sadhana and hard work. Fortunately we Hindus believe in reincarnation, which certainly allows for more patience. Also traditional gurus usually teach their close disciples (those that ARE ready) orally, one on one. Then the intricacies can be explored with correct feedback etc. Just a few rambling thoughts..Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
09 January 2008, 06:28 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste BobG,
This 'heart area' is a common theme. Another Upanishad that comes to mind is the Kathopanishad, valli 3, sloka 17.

Krsna also calls this out several times in the Bhagavad Gita - he says He resides in all Beings, or sarva-bhuta-stham within ones heart.

So the question is what is this heart? is it filled with blood and pumping or is it hrtaya looked at this way: the region of the heart as the seat of feelings and sensations.
This hrtaya (हृदय) is also known as centre or core or essence, best or dearest, most secret part of anything.

We also find in the Upanishads that Brahman resides in the right eye. And if we look to the Mundakopanishad we find His heart is the Universe or hridayam-visvam ( Chapt 2.1.4).

In my studies I find no place , no thing , no where that He is Not , this Brahman. He is ubiquitous in the present, the past and the future, all at the same time.

There is no doubt He resides in the heart of all, at the level feeling, physical, mental, front, back and all sides and directions. These are not my words, the Upanishads says it like this - He is very luminous, without form, He is both within and without, unborn (ajah) without prana ( or apranah - breathless), without mind, pure and greater then the great, indestructible One. (Munduka Upanishad 2.1.1)

pranams

sarabhanga
09 January 2008, 06:33 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

I have not disagreed with your comments on saMyama, and my post was mainly directed at your response to Rajalakshmi’s advice to Skhandelwal.





If you want to read other people's mind, have psychic abilities, be able to travel in time - you must first loose the desire to possess these abilities. When you run away from these desires, these siddhis will run after you. If you run towards these siddhis, they will flee at double the speed.

I have a different view on this matter. If someone wishes to earn siddhi abilities, there is a method offered.

Although, from your clarifications, it seems that perhaps you do not actually disagree with Rajalakshmi (?).

Your comments about gaining physical strength and collecting diverse knowledge all pertain to levels below the heart cakra, which are all relatively dualistic conditions. But saMyama occurs beyond the hRdaya, in the head cakras.

All desires create unnecessary attachments, so it is best to simply follow one’s dharma without thought of the potential rewards. And so, if someone wishes to earn siddhi, the first steps are to stop wishing for siddhi and to start working for samAdhi. :)

yajvan
09 January 2008, 07:21 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,
I have not disagreed with your comments on saMyama, and my post was mainly directed at your response to Rajalakshni’s advice to Skhandelwal.
the first steps are to stop wishing for siddhi and to start working for samAdhi.

Rajalakshni wrote,

to be able to travel in time - you must first loose the desire to possess these abilities. When you run away from these desires, these siddhis will run after you.

Namaste sarabhanga (et.al)
thank you for your note... I think we're aligned. I did review rajalaskshni's post and the part that stimulated my post is shown above.

I think for me its all sorted out. I am in hopes we have given Skhandelwal some meaningful information. From what I read, I think so.

pranams

Bob G
09 January 2008, 10:22 PM
A quote for your consideration from the rainbowbody.com (http://www.rainbowbody.com/newarticles/energybody.htm) website:

"...The Seed Body, the Golden Seed, the Divine Body, Hiranyagarbha Kosha, the Tathagatagarbha Womb of all Buddhas.

Deep within the anandamaya kosha after all the karma has been cleaned up, there is only a seed potential. Here there is no sthula, sukshma, nor even karana shariras, the latter only in seed form. As such this is Siva in his absolute formless state, attributeless, nirguna, timeless but replete.

Here the unbounded essence of the mystery is unclothed, known without words in its utterless nakedness. Here the mystery of absolute emptiness (sunyata) devoid of any constituent thing and absolutely complete is represented as the infinite buddha potential that permeates all of time and space (the Tathagatagarbha). Here in the birthless state rebirth takes place or not. If it does it is not a birth driven by karma or conditions, but a divine birth, otivated by pure unconditional love.

This is the essential of all the essentials -- the heart of hearts (hridayam) -- the causal essence which itself has no cause -- the seed and womb -- containing the seed of all seeds, the impetus and chalice both, known HERE all ways, by the virtue of no words and no concepts -- by acceptance and non-acceptance -- by not doing and not not doing -- by being and not being -- through blessed peace -- through her Grace. I bow over and over and over again..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Correlation in Chandogya Upanisad:

"That Self abides in the heart. The etymological explanation of heart is this: This one (ayam) is in the heart (hridi); therefore It is called the heart (hridayam). He who knows this goes every day in deep sleep to Heaven (i.e.Brahman, dwelling in the heart).

Bob G
09 January 2008, 10:34 PM
Namaste Eastern Mind,

Those were some fine rambling thoughts :) , thank you.

Eeeeeeeeeee

skhandelwal
09 January 2008, 10:39 PM
After all I have read, some of the knowledge hints this:

when we desire, we tend to procastinate...however, when we decide to do something, our desires for it end, we don't even get affected by the outcome, b/c we become so much addicted to the result, that we do not take no for the answer. So then what is desire?
I am basing this on the philosophy of don't chase the result, only then the result will chase you.

However, another question is, why does it happen that (luckily in practical life), things we don't care about anymore, we receive, but the things we can't live w/o, we end up having to adjust our life w/o it?

Also,
sarabhanga (http://hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=5) http://hindudharmaforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif, could you please post the translations for the old bold words in that post of yours? Seems like really valuable information, only if I could understand most of its words. vbmenu_register("postmenu_19603", true);

And lastly, Bob G, thanks for appreciating my habit of nagging others for my curiosities. Your thank you is much welcomed.:)

Rajalakshmi
10 January 2008, 01:39 AM
I have a different view on this matter. If someone wishes to earn siddhi abilities, there is a method offered, that of Samyama.

Samyama¹ - it is a technique or condition one can practice that is made of the following components, that is, when all three of these components are present (some say exercised) then one is practicing samyama -the three components are dharana, dhyana, and samadhi.

Dharana is this fixity or attenton , consciousness of a single object, idea, etc. and the other senses are withdrawn i.e. do not apprehend the object/idea at hand. some say one-pointed.
Dhyana is that continuous flow of the same knowledge/idea in Dharana - some call this meditation. Continuoous flow of the onepointedness found in Dharana.
Samadhi is when the object of meditation (dhyana) only shines forth in the mind, as if devoid of the thought and is considered concentrated mind ( not concentration or the act of, but again, resolved to simple one pointedness). When these three are in sync, and pointed to the same object of reference, then one is practicing samyama.

why do this? Patanjali muni says by mastering this, than the light of knowledge (prajana) dawns for the sadhu or native. It is by this samyama that one pratices the siddhi's called out in Patanjali work of yoga sutras.

More on this if there is interest, as we hve discussed this last year:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9745&postcount=5


pranams,

1. संयम or saMyama (some write saṅyama) holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control of the senses , self-control; Yet these terms suggest effort,; Excess effort does not support this notion of over-extending or trying, as it suppresses that natural flow of consciousness.

Hello shri yajvanji,

saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.

Do you know that many people with ulterior motives would actually like to attain great siddhis and rule the world? Have you wondered why this rarely happens?

This is because siddhis are rarely attained by people who have desires. Those who wish to possess siddhis ( other than the siddhi of brahma-jnAna) will never be able to achieve saMyama, because perfect saMyama is achieved only where there is peace of mind, with mind undisturbed by unwanted thoughts. Desire for siddhis influence the mind in the form of 'building castles in the air' and 'day dreaming' which prevent one from attaining the levels of concentration needed to achieve saMyama.

So whoever attains siddhis attains them from never wishing to attain them. Some people fall a prey to siddhis after attaining them - and miss out on the real siddhi.

Siddhis can give great benefits to you and others. You can cure the illness of others in the form of parOpakAra - but do you know such an act would bring the karma onto yourself for unnecessarily tampering with the laws of God? You can do a lot of good for the world, and in the process acquire a lot of karma too. If siddhis are misused, it is even bigger disaster. Only the perfect jnAni will be able to properly use the siddhis - and he may have no need of them. Half baked siddhas who use siddhis may pay a heavy price in the long run.

~RL

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 04:48 AM
could you please post the translations for the bold words in that post of yours? Seems like really valuable information, only if I could understand most of its words.

All of the words should be found in a Sanskrit Dictionary. But if there is any particular term that requires clarification, please indicate.

yajvan
10 January 2008, 11:35 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.

Do you know that many people with ulterior motives would actually like to attain great siddhis and rule the world? Have you wondered why this rarely happens?

This is because siddhis are rarely attained by people who have desires. Those who wish to possess siddhis ( other than the siddhi of brahma-jnAna) will never be able to achieve saMyama, because perfect saMyama is achieved only where there is peace of mind, with mind undisturbed by unwanted thoughts. Desire for siddhis influence the mind in the form of 'building castles in the air' and 'day dreaming' which prevent one from attaining the levels of concentration needed to achieve saMyama.

So whoever attains siddhis attains them from never wishing to attain them. Some people fall a prey to siddhis after attaining them - and miss out on the real siddhi.

Siddhis can give great benefits to you and others. You can cure the illness of others in the form of parOpakAra - but do you know such an act would bring the karma onto yourself for unnecessarily tampering with the laws of God? You can do a lot of good for the world, and in the process acquire a lot of karma too. If siddhis are misused, it is even bigger disaster. Only the perfect jnAni will be able to properly use the siddhis - and he may have no need of them. Half baked siddhas who use siddhis may pay a heavy price in the long run. ~RL

Namaste Rajalakshmi,
first let me thank you for a well thought out post. Let me offer my POV and experience on this matter.

You mention,

saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.

There is a lot implied here. While practicing saMyama and one experiences samadhi , then no desires are present, perfect samasta. So agreed, this is a desireless state.
Yet while doing ones daily routine and desires flow, this activity does not prevent saMyama from being effective when practiced. That is, during daily activity there are desires...I wish to have a meal or a cookie , or I desire to read a book. I desire to sit in my room and meditate. All desires. None stop them from ones saMyama.

you mention,

Do you know that many people with ulterior motives would actually like to attain great siddhis and rule the world? Have you wondered why this rarely happens?

I am sure there are these people... the notion of my post is for saMyama to occur one need to practice meditation over time. Tamasic behaviors are reduced and begin their elimination, negativity is neutralized. The siddhis do not flourish till the stress, negativity and tamasic tendencies are resolved.

So the good news is, by ones practice to have siddhis blossom, purity is gained and the Ulterior motives become washed away... that is the best kept secret of this approach.
So , if ulterior motives are the motivating desire that gets an individual to practice of Dharana & Dhyana, then so be it. By this method one becomes closer to the SELF, and ulterior motives soon become dissolved.

You mention the following,

...saMyama, because perfect saMyama is achieved only where there is peace of mind, with mind undisturbed by unwanted thoughts. I could not agree more. Please note, by practicing Dharana & Dhyana one increases their peace of mind.... This is why I welcome all that wish to pursue this. With a troubles-thrashing mind siddhis do not occur, of this there is no doubt. Yet over time, one gains peace of mind, a glimpse or flavors of the siddhis being to pop up. Sattva begins to take hold.

One thing worth mentioning as other may also be reading this post. Practicing samadhi as a technique does not happen. Samadhi is the result of Dharana & Dhyana blossoming. Samadhi is a state/ the state of Being, not a technique. So that is why I have said over and over again, this method is a self -regulating system, that is:

Siddhi does not blossom without samadhi
samadhi does not blossom without Dharana & Dhyana
Dharana & Dhyana removes the tamasic tendencies and 'blockages'
Dharana & Dhyana bring one to more harmony to ones personal dharma
Via these approaches above the small self and minute ulterior motives come to an end, for a larger purpose of gaining moksha
the above is the definition of a self-regulating system, under the care of this infinite Creative Intelligence that governs this universe.Now let me ask you question... have you read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras? Do you practice meditation, and saMyama? Do you speak from your own experience? And what did you find along the way?

You mention
Desire for siddhis influence the mind in the form of 'building castles in the air' and 'day dreaming' which prevent one from attaining the levels of concentration needed to achieve saMyama

I respect your POV here, but think differently about this matter, as mentioned in several posts so far. If while you are practicing saMyama and have these thoughts, then one is in these thoughts, not settled down to allow saMyama to be experienced.
If these thoughts are entertained outside of meditation, then these are thoughts like any other thought or desire. No different then thoughts of wanting a new car, a trip, a vacation, meeting ones guru, going on yatra, etc. other day dreaming items. Achievement starts with an idea, a dream a notion. If you see them as detrimental, I see your POV but do not concur.

Last, everyone seems to gravitate to the most 'spectacular' siddhis when talking on this matter. Yet if one looks to the 3rd chapter, Vibuthi pada, and note some of the siddhis on compassion, friendliness, happiness, strength, calmness,movement of the stars, becoming fulfilled in appetite, having the knowledge of the workings of ones mind, having superb taste, hearing and the like.
More robust siddhis require more stability and perminance of samadhi. More samadhi = higher states of consciousness and responsibity, purity, dharma. All self regulating to apply siddhis accordingly.

you also mention,

Half baked siddhas who use siddhis may pay a heavy price in the long run Do you know of any sadhus in this condition? I know of none.

I have no reservations, not a speck of doubt that Patanjali's wisdom here serves the spiritual development of the sadhu.

Thank you again for the post, and your thoughts on this matter.

pranams

Bob G
10 January 2008, 01:02 PM
Hello Yajvan,
Near the end of your last post was:

"you also mention,

"Half baked siddhas who use siddhis may pay a heavy price in the long run" (RL)

Do you know of any sadhus in this condition? I know of none"

My comment:
I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers. Thus if such a thing has never happened why do you think there are always warnings from them about such happenings? (warnings that I feel are far more serious than just, or only the idea of not bearing fruit)

Om

yajvan
10 January 2008, 01:46 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


My comment:
I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers.

I will be happy to review the list you may wish to provide.

pranams,

skhandelwal
10 January 2008, 02:57 PM
Personally, with no experience about this subject, my opinion is that when one truly desires something, he becomes pure in the respect of that objective desire....which is why a lot of sant tell us not to meditate w/ an aim...b/c then, you only achieve the aim...whereas, you are capable of achieving something much larger...therefore, the ones who engage in the process of attaining siddhis have a close mind which is directed solely to the siddhi, and their obsession results in the peace of the mind to get their result.

Ex. How Arjun was able to go in Samadhi on his Vanvas, however, he complained to Sri Krishna how he couldn't focus at all, when there was no aim to motivate him....

Having said that....spirituality is not a continually ascending ladder, there are people who go in samadhi, attain peace, and finally power, then come back from that state where they continue living a tamsic life. However, to use that power, they must still go to that pure state again, however, since they reach that stage everytime w/ a plan, they might gain some insight, but their capability of open mindedness cannot be compared to someone else, who reached that state w/ the aim of purity, instead of power...., meaning, not the just the state of mind, but intention has to be saatvik.

This is the reason why buddhist don't agree w/ hinduist...both are awakened, but they don't reach the truth, subconsciously, they still believe their path is righteous. But then again, the term Buddha: awakened one, is a vague term, people interpret a lot of things out of it...I for one, do not thing, an awakened one is perfect, he just relatively has more control over himself.....as I read in Dalai Lama's book, he still claims to get nervous when he has to give a speech.

yajvan
10 January 2008, 05:34 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Originally Posted by Bob G http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=19663#post19663)

I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers.
I replied
I will be happy to review the list you may wish to provide.


Namaste BG (et.al)
Let me address my own question if I may have this freedom to do so... I look to the author, Patanjali for his guidance:

Vibhuthi Pada, sutra 37 (or Chapt 3 verse/sutra 37 of the Yoga Sutras)

te samadhav upasarga vyutthane siddhayah
te -these samadhav-while in samadhi upasarga-impediment, obstacle, distraction. vyutthane-emergent siddhayah- proficiencies, perfections or abilities.
That is, These abilities or siddhis are impediments to samadhi but are acquisitions in a fluctuating state of mind¹

That said, saMyama is a very useful application, upaya, method etc. but not in order to gain siddhis by themselves. Rather saMyama is utilized in order to overcome impediments to samadhi. This is the wisdom offered².

1. These additional views are offered by Swami Hariharanada Aranya of the Kapila ashram, with additional comments of support (not offered here) by P.N.Mukerji, one of the sisya's of the ashram

2. I have shared with you additional insights, instruction and guidance offered and explained to me on this matter by my competent teacher. This knowledge is typically hidden from view from the general public. For this I am thankful to the wise that are able to separate avidya from wisdom on this subject. I am not the author here, but the exponent of their teaching. For this I am blessed.

3. FYI only संयम or saMyama (some write saṅyama) holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control of the senses , self-control; Yet these terms suggest effort,; Excess effort does not support this notion of over-extending or trying, as it suppresses that natural flow of consciousness.

pranams,

Eastern Mind
10 January 2008, 05:41 PM
Namaste all: Going right back to the original topic of how to stop judging, one of the sadhanas I practise (try to would be more accurate) on a daily basis is to see Siva in all. The eyes of a person are the windows to the soul. (Not my words, just can't remember who said it). So when you look at another person, you see Siva. Now how do we 'judge' Siva? Well, we don't. We admire, cherish the presence, feel, worship, etc. So when someone does something we under "normal" circumstances would judge in dualistic "good/bad" terms, if we're seeing Siva, then we tend to not judge at all.

The other understanding I have is of where souls are on the path. There are old souls, and young souls. The university professor doesn't judge the kid in the kindergarten class. He/she just sees the kindergarten kid as where he is: a six year old learning about the world. Hate to break the news, but we're not born equal. Some of us have been here for many lifetimes, (This is my first.) and others are just beginning. So when someone is argumentative, acting immorally, etc, rather than judge, I just try to see that they are under more anava than I, being a younger soul, and its all quite a natural progression. Same principle applies to karma. Karma is reduced when the person really doesn't know better. But if you know about the virtue teaching found in all religions, like honesty and the like, and still choose to act against those laws, then the karma would be much more severe. Aum Namasivaya

Bob G
10 January 2008, 06:16 PM
Hello Yajvan,


Ok, And I think there is a more straight-foward example below is in Vibhuthi Pada, sutras 51 and 52 (Translated by Chester Messenger)

- Dangers of the supernatural powers -

51] By maintaining non-attachment to even these supernatural powers, only then can the Yogi achieve absorption into the Supreme Soul. Otherwise these supernatural powers will become seeds of bondage and destruction.

52] When approached by high ranking deities of temptation, do not allow their wonderous invitations to bring you back into attachment, for undesirable events are still possible.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've read of related type warnings given in 51 by several other well recognized Gurus; although I don't have quoted text from any of them right now. Also I know that taking a big fall is a hell of a lesson! (in this world and others)

Om

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 06:20 PM
Namaste Yajvan,





saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.

There is a lot implied here.

The foundation of all yoga is yama; and, once established in the firm basis of yama, niyama provides the matrix for ascending. In fact, all subsequent stages actually occur entirely within the context of niyama.

niyama relies on the unwavering restraint of yama, and any spiritual ascent relies on the perfect control of niyama. And the whole of yamaniyama can never be ignored in the process of yoga.

There are, of course, three levels of yama ~ yamAniyAma, AsanayAma, and prANAyAma ~ and all three must be applied simultaneously to raise the spirit from dvaitam to the advaita hRdayam. And pratyAhAra occurs in the taijasa of anAhata cakra, where the purity of the light is maintained by the continuous application of yAma.

And saMyama absolutely requires all of the above!

If any desire arises, then duality is certainly implied, and the spirit has surely descended below the heart cakra ~ with yAma perhaps intact, but with pratyAhAra (and thus all of saMyama) lost.

If one wishes to eat, or desires to read a book, or even has any awareness of the external environment, then saMyama is certainly not being practiced correctly!

The three-fold yAma may be practiced with occasional desires and diverse thoughts arising as you mention, but the three-fold saMyama is impossible! And if one is still walking around and having the initial desire to sit down and meditate, then the ten-fold yamAniyAma may certainly be intact, but Asana and prANAyAma, which transfix both the physical frame and the vital breath, have certainly not been applied, and the frame and the mind and the breath are all wandering in dvaitam!




So the good news is, by ones practice to have siddhis blossom, purity is gained and the Ulterior motives become washed away... that is the best kept secret of this approach.
So , if ulterior motives are the motivating desire that gets an individual to practice of Dharana & Dhyana, then so be it. By this method one becomes closer to the SELF, and ulterior motives soon become dissolved.

And the more equivocal news has already been given (but apparently ignored).



Be careful what you ask for you may get it!

The notion of one gaining power is ego driven. For if we are true and humble the great Power will have us, not the other way around of us having It.

What you speak of can be a very fine line and one may cross that line and go in the opposite direction.

Most of that interesting mind-stuff if attained can be like possible fringe benefits (so to speak) of deeper realization; but it can also sideline one into all sorts of trouble.

All True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers. Thus if such a thing has never happened why do you think there are always warnings from them about such happenings?



Much of the general public is nowhere near the point of readiness to understand these concepts.



saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.

Those who wish to possess siddhis (other than the siddhi of brahma-jnAna) will never be able to achieve saMyama, because perfect saMyama is achieved only where there is peace of mind, with mind undisturbed by unwanted thoughts. Desire for siddhis influence the mind in the form of 'building castles in the air' and 'day dreaming' which prevent one from attaining the levels of concentration needed to achieve saMyama.

So whoever attains siddhis attains them from never wishing to attain them. Some people fall a prey to siddhis after attaining them - and miss out on the real siddhi.

Siddhis can give great benefits to you and others. You can cure the illness of others - but do you know such an act would bring the karma onto yourself for unnecessarily tampering with the laws of God? You can do a lot of good for the world, and in the process acquire a lot of karma too. If siddhis are misused, it is even bigger disaster. Only the perfect jnAni will be able to properly use the siddhis - and he may have no need of them. Half baked siddhas who use siddhis may pay a heavy price in the long run.

Your comments about gaining physical strength and collecting diverse knowledge all pertain to levels below the heart cakra, which are all relatively dualistic conditions. But saMyama occurs beyond the hRdaya, in the head cakras.

All desires create unnecessary attachments.

saMyama is the perfect self-control of the AtmayAjin who is kAmAvasAyitAra.

saMyama = turya
samAdhi = prAjña
dhyAnam = taijasa
dhAraNa = vaishvAnara

siddhi is synonymous with saMnyAsa and avadhUta.

siddhi is “supreme felicity, bliss, beatitude, complete sanctification, final emancipation, or perfection”.

And siddhi implies the vanishing of mAyA, the disappearance of any personal self, going away from normal perception, and making one’s self invisible.

The five-fold attainment of aNiman, laghiman, prApti, prAkAmyam, and mahiman, together confers Ishitvam and vashitvam, all of which presupposes kAmAvasAya (the suppression of all passion and desire).

In advaitavAda, siddhi presupposes kAmAvasAya and saMnyAsa, and the siddhi can never be explicit or independently exerted in the realm of dvaitam. If personal siddhi is desired, it will not be achieved; and if siddhi is displayed, then moksha will be lost.

In dvaitavAda, however, kAmAvasAya is assumed as siddhi itself, with desires being suppressed by their own satisfaction. The siddhi, of course, can only be used for good purpose, with ahiMsA being always presumed. And immortal existence may be gained, but this is an endless existence as a fixed presence amid the flux of continuous dvaitam throughout the manvantaram, but destroyed along with the three worlds at the end, and reborn again in the next manvantaram to try again.

advaitavAda presumes saMnyAsa and aims for prajñA and moksha; while dvaitavAda is vAnaprastha and kshatriya dharma, aiming for AjñA (command and control) and prajana (begetting and growth) and amRta (salvation and non-death) and transcendence to bhuvarloka (into the air), but not the final step of moksha (liberation) and ajana (dissolution and non-birth).

Anyone “wishing for siddhi” should be aware of what they might actually get with such a desire, and also of what they will lose in this deal with the devil of dvaitam.

The siddha king in dvaitam expects a return, and will be reborn and thus die again; while the siddha priest in advaitam expects nothing, and is exempt from rebirth and thus saved from all potential suffering and subsequent deaths.

I fully support the cautionary comments from BG and RL ~ there is a very fine line in practice, with quite opposing potential results when that line is crossed.

The dvaita tantram is an endless loom, with great responsibility for any man who would take its charge; while the advaita tantram casts off all threads of attachment and finally rests unbound and in peace.

samAdhi is the blossoming of saMyama, but its seed germinates only in pratyAhAra, which itself depends on maintaining the perfect substratum of yAma.

I have serious reservations about your interpretation of patañjali’s yoga.

yajvan
10 January 2008, 06:44 PM
Namaste Yajvan,



I have serious reservations about your interpretation of patañjali’s yoga.

Namaste sarabhanga,
then we differ and I have no resolution to convience, convert or debate your views... I have stated my position and will leave it there for now. thank you for taking the time to collect your thoughts and post a most exhaustive post.

( lots of bold type on this last post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )


pranams,

yajvan
10 January 2008, 06:51 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Ok, And I think there is a more straight-forward example below is in Vibhuthi Pada, sutras 51 and 52 (Translated by Chester Messenger)

- Dangers of the supernatural powers -

51] By maintaining non-attachment to even these supernatural powers, only then can the Yogi achieve absorption into the Supreme Soul. Otherwise these supernatural powers will become seeds of bondage and destruction.

52] When approached by high ranking deities of temptation, do not allow their wondrous invitations to bring you back into attachment, for undesirable events are still possible.



Namaste BG, thank you for the reference... appreciate the effort expended on this. As I have asked Rajalakshmi , and I mention this in the most positive way, i.e. not a challenge... are you a practitioner of saMyama? have you read and studied the Yoga Darsna? I mention this , as knowledge and experience is the greatest teacher here.

Please advise and perhaps then we can compare notes... I plan to stick to my teaching & practice as it has served me well. And so far I have not become 'possessed' of the negative influences many have alluded to regarding siddhis and will continue my practice accordinglyhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif as this has been a long time effort.

thank you again for your posts and the positive discussions on this matter.

Last point so I can get a frame of reference ... you mention

I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers.
does Chester Messenger meet this qualification? If so I then can do some research on him.
please advise.


pranams

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 08:31 PM
Yajvan,

You may have read P.N. Mukherji's translation of Swami Hariharananda Aranya's commentary on Patanjali's Yoga


“Yoga Philosophy of Patanjali: Containing His Yoga Aphorisms with Vyasa’s Commentary in Sanskrit and a Translation with Annotations Including Many Suggestions for the Practice of Yoga”, written by Swami Hariharananda Aranya and translated by P.N. Mukherji.

I have not read this book, but I very much doubt that Swami Hariharananda would have disagreed with my comments, so could you please quote something from Swami Hariharananda that actually disagrees with anything that I have said.

And if I have understood your comments correctly, your dvaita “saMyama” may bring bliss for a while, but the fall is inevitable.

I am sorry if this disagrees with your guru's advice, but I am quite sure that it does not disagree with Patanjali. I fear that you may be quite literally painting a picture of Dorian Gray, but if that is your strong desire ...

Znanna
10 January 2008, 08:40 PM
Namaste,

It seems to me that with each higher octave of resonance (as in chakras), that the balance become more delicate.

Balancing on Ajna requires, for me, harmonizing all lower chakras as a counterpoint to the music of the beacon of light, a balast of weightlessness which can be applied so as to make effortless the emergence into the brightening of the unobscured, um, Sun :)

For me it has a whole lot more to do with surrendering or floating, than judging.

/just saying...IMO

ZN

sarabhanga
10 January 2008, 10:02 PM
Regarding the desire for siddhi and the use of siddhi (and since my own words seem to be disregarded), remember that Patanjali himself remarks:


These are obstacles to Samadhi; but they are powers in the worldly state.
By giving up even these powers comes the destruction of the very seed of evil, which leads to Kaivalya.

And here is an excellent article from “The Mountain Path (http://www.sol.com.au/kor/6_02.htm)”.


It is becoming increasingly fashionable today for seekers to dabble with the occult in the pursuit of esoteric powers and experience. However the ancient spiritual traditions discourage this – why should the seekers of truth preoccupy themselves with powers over the material plane? These practices are distractions from the real goal of transcendent truth and they can become a source of ego (which the seeker is desires to transcend). Remember Goethe's Faust who became enslaved by these powers and Shakespeare's Macbeth whose downfall was precipitated by the three witches; both characters lost the battle with their lower self.

The deliberate pursuit of psychic powers is not favoured by sages and advanced sincere seekers. They discourage such practices deeming them an obstacle to realising oneness of being. Powers are in the realm of phenomena which are obscuring factors in self-realisation; on the whole dangerous ground to tread for those still on the way to stop the discursive activities of the mind in order to attain a one-pointed flow of awareness. In the course of spiritual practice powers may manifest spontaneously as a result of practice of concentration in previous lives. Great is the allurement of psychic powers such as knowledge of future events, understanding the language of birds or animals, spirit mediumship, clairvoyance, astsal travel, telekinesis, reading of tarot, making oneself invisible or tiny as an atom (anima), and its opposite (mahima) and many more! And great is the discernment of those who have the strength to withstand them. No doubt the acquisition and perseverance resulting in concentration which could be used on the royal road instead of by-lanes.

Acquired powers are to some extent due to a cultivation of generally available techniques and to some extent to development of an aptitude for spontaneous power that was inherent but not powerful enough to manifest without training. It is enough to say that they are not approved of by true masters. In order to seek them, a man's mind must be directed towards them, not towards spiritual liberation. Therefore they cannot lead him to Liberation. Preoccupation with them is far more likely to distract him from it; and it can do this just as effectively as preoccupation with physical wealth and power. At best they exist within the phenomenal world which we should be striving to transcend; at worst they degenerate into sorcery and magnify his ego by giving him power over other s and winning their submission and adulation.

Midway between these two subcategories are powers which come to a man spontaneously in the course of his quest and as a by product of it. They also can be a hindrance on the quest. Whether and how far to use them will be a matter for decision by the Guru or for sober, dispassionate judgment if there is no physical Guru.

The third category into which the second may merge, is of those who have made them selves channels for the Divine power by complete submission or dissolution of the ego which obstructs it.

Ramakrishna has stated that a man cannot realise God if he possesses even one of the eight occult powers. He quoted Lord Krishna teaching Arjuna ~ "Friend, if you want to realise Me, you will not succeed if you have even one of the eight occult powers. This is the truth. Occult power is sure to beget pride and pride makes one forget God."

He continued, "An egoistic person cannot realise God. Do you know what egotism is like? It is like a high mound where rain-water cannot collect; the water runs off. Water collects in low land. There seeds sprout and grow into trees. Then the trees bear fruit.

'The deliberate pursuit of psychic powers is not favoured by sages and advanced sincere seekers. They discourage such practices deeming them an obstacle to realising oneness of being'

"People of small intellect seek occult powers. Power to cure disease, win a law suit, walk on water and such things. But the genuine devotees do not want anything except His lotus feet. . . . People with a little occult power gain such things as name and fame. Many of them want to follow the profession of Guru, gain people's recognition, and make disciples and devotees.

"People cure diseases through occult powers. All this is miracle working. Only those whose spiritual experience is extremely shallow call on God for the healing of diseases.

It is very hard for those who want occult power to have pure love for God."

Professor G.V.Subbaramayya in the article 'Automatic Divine Activity' has recounted how he prayed to the sage Sri Ramana Maharshi for the cure of his two-year-old daughter and how she was cured by his Grace, later he met Sri Ramana Maharshi and enquired of him, " did you not think that you must do something to save the child?" Straight came his reply : "Even the thought of saving the child is a sankalpa (wish), and one who has any sankalpa is no jnani (realised soul, literally, "knower"). In fact any such thought is unnecessary. The moment the jnanis attention is drawn in a certain direction there starts the automatic divine activity which itself leads to the highest good." The conversation was all in Telugu except for the phrase 'automatic divine activity' which Maharshi uttered in English.

He later explained :

"In Halasya Mahima there is a chapter on the eightfold siddhis. There Lord Siva says that his bhakta never wastes a thought on them. Again, Lord Siva says that He never grants boons. The desires of devotees are fulfilled according to their prarabdha only. When Ishwara Himself says so, what of others? In order to display siddhis there must be others to recognise them. That means there is no jnana (enlightened awareness) in the one who displays them. Therefore siddhis (occult powers) are not worthy of any thought. Jnana (self realisation) alone is to be aimed at and gained.

"Atman (the Self) alone is to be realised. Its realisation holds all else in its compass. Sakti, Ganapati, Siddhis etc., are included in it. Those who speak of these have not realised the Atman."

A North Indian visitor asked whether the Jnani (gnostic, knower) automatically acquired siddhis or whether he had to strive for them separately if he desired them.

The reply:

"Who is the jnani? If he is the body you see, then his siddhis will be shown to other bodies. But if he is pure awareness, from where will he get the siddhis and to whom will he show them?

"Both the jnani and the bhakta (devotee) do not desire or work for siddhis; the former because he sees himself the All, and the latter because he sees his Ishta Devata as the All; even his own action is done by this deity; he has no will of his own at all to impel action on his own initiative. Yet siddhis follow them both like their shadows. What greater siddhi is there than that of the Sage., who by merely sitting on his couch, attracts thousands of people from the four corners of the earth, hundreds of whom change their old modes of life and some even attain Godhood?

"People see many things which are far more miraculous than the so-called siddhis, yet do not wonder at them, simply because they occur every day."

"The highest siddhi is realisation of the Self, Atma Sakshatkara; for here, once you realise the truth you cease to be drawn to the path of ignorance."

The Sai Baba of Panimalai claims that he must perform the "miracles" he is famous for in order to inspire faith. He is often annoyed with those who question the nature of his powers.

We are unable to share the view that the performance of miracles is not to be questioned or that the display of miracles or occult powers is meant to create and does create faith in the faithless. According to our humble opinion, the faith if created, would not be long-lasting and could not be the sraddha spoken of in the Gita:

"Who has faith, who has conquered and controlled the mind and senses, who has fixed his whole conscious being on the Supreme Reality, he attains knowledge; and having attained knowledge he attains swiftly Supreme Peace."

Also the performance of miracles alone is no proof of divinity: Did not Satan materialise the kingdoms of the earth at the feet of Christ, and offer them as temptation?

The darshan (divine presence) of a jnani (self-realised being) has much more power to remove ignorance than the possessor of occult powers. This has been the experience of many seekers.

Coming to Yoga Sastras, Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms (Ch. III,No.38,51) read

"These are obstacles to samadhi; but they are powers in the worldly state."

"By giving up even these powers comes the destruction of the very seed of evil which leads to Kaivalya."

Commenting on these aphorisms, Vivekananda has observed

"When the Yogi has seen all these wonderful powers, and rejected them, he reaches the goal. What are all these powers? Simply manifestations. They are no better than dreams. Even omnipotence is a dream. It depends upon the mind. So long as there is a mind it can be understood, but the goal is beyond even the mind."

"Moreover what are these powers for? The would-be occultist (Siddha) desires to display the siddhis so that others may appreciate him. He seeks appreciation, and if it is not forthcoming, he will not be happy. There must be others to appreciate him. He may even find another possessor of higher powers. That will cause jealousy and breed unhappiness. The high occultist (siddha) may still meet a higher siddha and so on until there will come one who will blow up everything in a trice. Such is the highest adept (Siddha), and He is god or the Self.

"The darshan (divine presence) of a jnani (self-realised being) has much more power to remove ignorance than the possessor of occult powers. This has been the experience of many seekers."

"Which is the real power? Is it to increase prosperity or bring about peace? That which results in peace is the highest perfection (Siddhi)."

It is evident that occult powers are not signs of true knowledge of reality and may deflect people from the real quest. They are not a hindrance to mukti (spiritual liberation). They are a hindrance on the way to mukti. Since they are realised with the mind (mental projections) they are impediments to Self-Realisation.

Bob G
10 January 2008, 10:46 PM
Hello Yajvan,

I didn't mean (and I don't think I implied) that Chester Messenger was a True Guru, only a translator that I found on the web.

Below are two short excerpts that you or others may find to be related to this thread:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Merging with Siva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

"...before Parasiva, we should not seek the siddhis. After Parasiva, through samyama, we keep the siddhis we need for our work..."

"...The scriptures are filled with stories of certain rishis who reached high levels, but had given up all their bhakti and japa. When difficult personal karma came, each fell deep into the lower nature, way below the muladhara, to become demon like to society rather than a holy seer and a guiding force."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have mostly been a blue-collar working stiff doing three rotating sets of shifts per month at a noisy industrial site to support his little family; I sometimes study the holy books. I have more experience in making mistakes and a lot of the stuff that can go wrong is not new to me; more importantly though I have to agree with the person you interviewed who said he was happy to be a human being...:) I'll second that :hug:

Om

yajvan
10 January 2008, 10:52 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Yajvan,
You may have read P.N. Mukherji's translation of Swami Hariharananda Aranya's commentary on Patanjali's Yoga


“Yoga Philosophy of Patanjali: Containing His Yoga Aphorisms with Vyasa’s Commentary in Sanskrit and a Translation with Annotations Including Many Suggestions for the Practice of Yoga”, written by Swami Hariharananda Aranya and translated by P.N. Mukherji.I have not read this book, but I very much doubt that Swami Hariharananda would have disagreed with my comments, so could you please quote something from Swami Hariharananda that actually disagrees with anything that I have said.

And if I have understood your comments correctly, your dvaita “saMyama” may bring bliss for a while, but the fall is inevitable.

I am sorry if this disagrees with your guru's advice,

Namaste sarabhanga (et.al)

Thank you again for your concern as it is greatly appreciated. I can assure you I am in good hands.

I do not wish to find any comments that disagree with your POV or your knowledge. I respect your efforts and time committed on this matter.

I believe I have pursued this subject to an extended maximum, and have given information that is close and dear to me. This practice I pursue is not of the last year or even 10 years. My saMyama and I are old friends.

My practice is not based on books (yet many are in this field for review to compliment ones practice) but on instruction. So if my demise is going to occur I wish it world hurry up!http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If we continue the conversation, I am not sure it will bear any fruit. As one will offer knowledge one possesses that is considered greater, or more correct, perhaps wiser, then the others. For this, the ego is fed (one-up-manship) and I am in no need of this, and I am sure you would say the same.
And what would I accomplish? I have won? I have convinced some one that my sadhana is right for me? Where is the wisdom in this? I think I presented my view without malice or arm twisting and all is right with the world.

So, it seems to me we leave it here. I am ok with this. As I have a different orientation, instruction and insight based upon experience.

For those that wish to use, review or cogitate on the posts herein, I leave it to them to consider the knowledge; perhaps some good will come of it or reject it as they see fit.

pranams,

atanu
10 January 2008, 11:04 PM
Hello Yajvan,

I didn't mean (and I don't think I implied) that Chester Messenger was a True Guru, only a translator that I found on the web.

Below are two short excerpts that you or others may find to be related to this thread:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Merging with Siva" by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

"...before Parasiva, we should not seek the siddhis. After Parasiva, through samyama, we keep the siddhis we need for our work..."

"...The scriptures are filled with stories of certain rishis who reached high levels, but had given up all their bhakti and japa. When difficult personal karma came, each fell deep into the lower nature, way below the muladhara, to become demon like to society rather than a holy seer and a guiding force."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have mostly been a blue-collar working stiff doing three rotating sets of shifts per month at a noisy industrial site to support his little family; I sometimes study the holy books. I have more experience in making mistakes and a lot of the stuff that can go wrong is not new to me; more importantly though I have to agree with the person you interviewed who said he was happy to be a human being...:) I'll second that :hug:

Om

u r good Bob and u bring value here.

"...before Parasiva, we should not seek the siddhis. After Parasiva, through samyama, we keep the siddhis we need for our work..."

-----------

That is all of scripture that one needs. I just add that after Parasiva, there is no illusion called Karma-- or work, ONLY SAMYAMA.

Om

Bob G
10 January 2008, 11:05 PM
Hello Sarabhanga,

Looks like an interesting post from the Mountain Path! I don't have time to read it tonight but will soon. Thanks for all of your contributions to this thread. Now I'm going to tidy up some then hit the sack.

Good night

Om

sarabhanga
11 January 2008, 12:18 AM
III. 37

In concentration these are obstacles; in the emergent state they are perfections.

arising [in the yogin] whose mind is emergent, they are perfections.

Occasionally a man, after beginning constraint upon the self as object, acquires those perfections which are subsidiary to this, and thinks because of the power of these [perfections] that he has effected his purpose, and so might cease the constraint.

In concentration, these are obstacles; in the emergent state they are perfections.

For a man whose mind is concentrated must avoid these even when brought near to him.

One who longs for the final goal of life, the absolute assuagement of the three-fold anguish, how could he have any affection for those perfections which go counter to [the attainment] of that [goal]?


[B]III.51

In case of invitations from those in high places, these should arouse no attachment or pride, for undesired consequences recur.

With their high places they invite him. ‘Sir, will you sit here? Will you rest here? This pleasure might prove attractive. This elixir checks old age and death. This chariot passes through air. Yonder are the Wishing Trees; the Stream of Heaven confers blessedness; the sages are perfected; the nymphs are incomparable and not prudish. Eyes and ears [will become] supernal; the body like diamond. In consequence of your peculiar virtues, Venerable Sir, all these things have been won by you. Have entrance to this high place which is unfading and ageless and deathless and dear to the gods’

Thus addressed let him ponder upon the defects of pleasure.

‘Baked upon the horrible coals of the round of rebirths, and writhing in the darkness of birth and of death, I have hardly found the lamp of yoga which makes an end to the obscurations of the hindrances. And of this [lamp] the lust-born gusts of sensual things are enemies. How then could it be that I who have seen its light could be led astray by these things of sense, a mere mirage, and make myself fuel for that same fire of the round of rebirths as it flares up again? Fare ye well! Sensual things [deceitful] as dreams and to be craved by vile folk!’

His purpose thus determined, let him cultivate concentration. Giving up attachment [for things of sense] let him not even take pride in thinking it is he that is thus urgently desired even by the gods. Such a one, if in his pride he deem himself secure, will not feel as if he were one whom Death had gripped by the hair. And so Heedlessness, on the lookout for his weak points and failures, and always carefully to be watched, will have found an opening and will arouse the hindrances.

As a result of this undesired consequences recur.

So then he who in this way does not become attached or take pride will attain permanently the purpose which he has cultivated within, and will find himself face to face with the purpose he has yet to cultivate.

sarabhanga
11 January 2008, 04:27 PM
If someone wishes to earn siddhi abilities, there is a method offered.




I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers.




I will be happy to review the list you may wish to provide.

Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, Ramana Maharishi, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Vyasa, and Patanjali, have all been quoted in support of the traditional warnings regarding Siddhi.

And, according to Swami Hariharananda Aranya:


These powers are impediments to Samadhi, but are acquisitions in a normal fluctuating state of mind.

When powers are acquired, they prove to be hindrances to the attainment of Samadhi because they stand in the way of realization of the ultimate truth by an engrossed mind. When the mind is fluctuating they are acquisitions.

In Samadhi there is only one object as the prop of a concentrated mind, hence the attainment of powers causes disturbance to such a mind. When aided by the knowledge of the various Tattvas, and by the practice of renunciation, the mind becomes one-pointed, and is completely closed to permeation of knowledge, then only can the state of the Self-being-in-Itself be reached.

Attainment of powers is inimical to that.

Indeed, ALL traditional Hindu authorities give similar warnings regarding Siddhi.

yajvan
11 January 2008, 05:43 PM
And, according to Swami Hariharananda Aranya:


These powers are impediments to Samadhi, but are acquisitions in a normal fluctuating state of mind.
When powers are acquired, they prove to be hindrances to the attainment of Samadhi because they stand in the way of realization of the ultimate truth by an engrossed mind. When the mind is fluctuating they are acquisitions..



Namaste,
Fair statements, and meets with my understanding.


Roma locuta est; causa finita est - St. Augustine of Hippo
pranams,

sarabhanga
11 January 2008, 06:43 PM
The foundation of all yoga is yama; and, once established in the firm basis of yama, niyama provides the matrix for ascending. In fact, all subsequent stages actually occur entirely within the context of niyama.

niyama relies on the unwavering restraint of yama, and any spiritual ascent relies on the perfect control of niyama. And the whole of yamaniyama can never be ignored in the process of yoga.

There are, of course, three levels of yama ~ yamAniyAma, AsanayAma, and prANAyAma ~ and all three must be applied simultaneously to raise the spirit from dvaitam to the advaita hRdayam. And pratyAhAra occurs in the taijasa of the anAhata cakra, where the purity of the light is maintained by the continuous application of yAma.

And saMyama absolutely requires all of the above.

If any desire arises, then duality is certainly implied, and the spirit has surely descended below the heart cakra ~ with yAma perhaps intact, but with pratyAhAra (and thus all of saMyama) lost.

If one wishes to eat, or desires to read a book, or even has any awareness of the external environment, then saMyama is certainly not being practiced correctly.

The three-fold yAma may be practiced with occasional desires and diverse thoughts arising, but the three-fold saMyama is impossible. And if one is still walking around and having the initial desire to sit down and meditate, then the ten-fold yamAniyAma may be intact, but Asana and prANAyAma, which transfix both the physical frame and the vital breath, have certainly not been applied, and the frame and the mind and the breath are all wandering in dvaitam.

Any personal notions of gaining physical strength and collecting diverse knowledge all pertain to levels below the heart cakra, which are all relatively dualistic conditions. But saMyama occurs beyond the hRdaya, in the head cakras.

All desires create unnecessary attachments.

saMyama is the perfect self-control of the AtmayAjin (one who sacrifices himself) who is kAmAvasAyitAra (one who suppresses or destroys passion or desire).

siddhi is synonymous with saMnyAsa and avadhUta.

The five-fold attainment of aNiman, laghiman, prApti, prAkAmyam, and mahiman, together confers Ishitvam and vashitvam, all of which presupposes kAmAvasAya (the suppression of all passion and desire).

In advaitavAda, siddhi presupposes kAmAvasAya and saMnyAsa, and the siddhi can never be explicit or independently exerted in the realm of dvaitam. If personal siddhi is desired, it will not be achieved; and if siddhi is displayed, then moksha will be lost.

In dvaitavAda, however, kAmAvasAya is assumed as a siddhi itself, with desires being suppressed by their own satisfaction. The siddhi, of course, can only be used for good purpose, with ahiMsA being always presumed. And immortal existence may be gained, although this is an endless existence as a fixed presence amid the flux of continuous dvaitam throughout the manvantaram but destroyed along with the three worlds at the end, and reborn again in the next manvantaram to try again.

advaitavAda presumes saMnyAsa and aims for prajñA and moksha; while dvaitavAda is vAnaprastha and kshatriya dharma, aiming for AjñA (command and control) and prajana (begetting and growth) and amRta (salvation and non-death) and transcendence to bhuvarloka (in the air), but not the final step of moksha (liberation) and ajana (dissolution and non-birth).

Anyone “wishing for siddhi” should be aware of what they might actually get with such a desire, and also of what they will lose in this deal with the devil of dvaitam.

The siddha king in dvaitam expects a return, and will be reborn and thus die again; while the siddha priest in advaitam expects nothing, and is exempt from rebirth and thus saved from all potential suffering and subsequent deaths.

The dvaita tantram is an endless loom, with great responsibility for any man who would take its charge; while the advaita tantram casts off all threads of attachment and finally rests unbound and in peace.

samAdhi is the blossoming of saMyama, but its seed germinates only in pratyAhAra, which itself depends on maintaining the perfect substratum of yAma.

saMyama absolutely depends on the simultaneous application of yAma.

The various limbs of yoga are explained separately for logical convenience, and they are grasped sequentially in preliminary practice, but it must be understood that the yoga itself comes in a perfect union of all limbs in simultaneous application.

yoga depends on the union of yama and niyama.

yoga depends on the union of yamAniyAma and AsanayAma and prANAyAma.

yoga depends on the union of dhAraNa and dhyAnam and samAdhi.

yoga depends on the union of saMyAma and saMyama.

And yoga depends on pratyAhAra ~ “withdrawal of the senses from external objects”, “dissolution of the world”, or “abstraction”.

yoga depends on yamaniyama (yamAniyAma), and pratyAhAra, and samAdhi (saMyama) ~ indeed, yoga is synonymous with these unified and unifying abstractions, and the two wings of yamAniyAma and samAdhi are united by pratyAhAra in the hRdayam.

Every limb of yoga is individually beneficial (in dvaitam), but the true yoga of sage patañjali requires the simultaneous application of ALL limbs. And this unified approach leads directly to moksha and the ultimate siddhi.

If any desire arises, then duality is certainly implied, and the spirit has surely descended below the heart cakra ~ with yAma perhaps intact, but with pratyAhAra (and thus all of saMyama) lost.

If one wishes to eat, or desires to read a book, or even has any awareness of the external environment, then saMyama is certainly not being practiced correctly.

The three-fold yAma may be practiced with occasional desires and diverse thoughts arising, but the three-fold saMyama is impossible. And if one is still walking around and having the initial desire to sit down and meditate, then the ten-fold yamAniyAma may certainly be intact, but Asana and prANAyAma, which transfix both the physical frame and the vital breath, have certainly not been applied, and the frame and the mind and the breath are all wandering in dvaitam.

Any personal notions of gaining physical strength and collecting diverse knowledge all pertain to levels below the heart cakra, which are all relatively dualistic conditions. But saMyama occurs in the advaita hRdayam and beyond.

All desires create unnecessary attachments.

yajvan
11 January 2008, 07:03 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


All desires create unnecessary attachments.

namaste,

...and what of the desire for Moksha?

pranams,

sarabhanga
11 January 2008, 07:16 PM
There is only ONE true desire, and that one heart’s desire is the singular promise of all true vedAnta !


moksha = yoga = yama = advaita = shiva

yajvan
11 January 2008, 07:21 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~
There is only ONE true desire, and that one heart’s desire is the singular promise of all true vedAnta ! moksha = yoga = yama = advaita = shiva


Namaste sarabhanga,
then how to reconcile in ones mind,

All desires create unnecessary attachments.
:headscratch: Are the caveats to this?

pranams,

sarabhanga
11 January 2008, 08:24 PM
How can this be so difficult to grasp?

moksha is the satisfaction yama; yama is the fulfillment of yoga, yoga is the reconciliation of dvaitam, and advaitam is shiva.

There is only ONE true desire, and that one heart’s desire is the desire and the promise of true vedAnta !

moksha = yama = yoga = advaita = shiva

Desire for advaitam arises in the mAyA of dvaitam, and in advaitam (of course) no such desire can arise (indeed, the whole dualistic notion of desire is inapplicable).

patañjali provides the introduction; one’s own self provides the materials; yama provides the method of yoga; and yoga is both the method and the result, which is moksha; and the conclusion is advaitam and shiva.

Have you actually read any upaniSad? Or perhaps your dvaitavAda is so entrenched that you have entirely missed the point of advaitam (?) If so, there seems to be no possibility of agreement here, since I understand dvaita yoga as an impossible contradiction. :headscratch:

Rajalakshmi
11 January 2008, 11:12 PM
Namaste Shri yajvanji,




There is a lot implied here. While practicing saMyama and one experiences samadhi , then no desires are present, perfect samasta. So agreed, this is a desireless state.
Yet while doing ones daily routine and desires flow, this activity does not prevent saMyama from being effective when practiced. That is, during daily activity there are desires...I wish to have a meal or a cookie , or I desire to read a book. I desire to sit in my room and meditate. All desires. None stop them from ones saMyama.


No, it is not possible to have a desired filled day, and yet attain saMyama. This is why, Yoga insists on the strong foundation of yama and niyama. Doing one's daily activities without desires will not however interfere with saMyama. Having a meal or cookie is not a desire as it is a mandatory activity. The need to sustain life will require some minimal activity. Even doing all worldly activities are not a problem.

This is why Bhagavad Gita lays utmost stress on nishkAma karma. Without the foundation of desirelessness ( even while involved in any activity), the very Yoga is lost.





I am sure there are these people... the notion of my post is for saMyama to occur one need to practice meditation over time. Tamasic behaviors are reduced and begin their elimination, negativity is neutralized. The siddhis do not flourish till the stress, negativity and tamasic tendencies are resolved.


Yes!




So the good news is, by ones practice to have siddhis blossom, purity is gained and the Ulterior motives become washed away... that is the best kept secret of this approach.
So , if ulterior motives are the motivating desire that gets an individual to practice of Dharana & Dhyana, then so be it. By this method one becomes closer to the SELF, and ulterior motives soon become dissolved.


Yes, you are right to some extent. But it is not sufficient to indulge in dhyAna, without first eliminating all ulterior motives. This is why dhAraNa/dhyAna are only the sixth limb of Yoga and not the first. Desirelessness must be attained though the practice of yama and niyama, before any benefit will accrue from the other limbs. dhyAna by itself will not wash away ulterior motives, but nishkAma karma will do so. dhyAna for the sake for siddhis or any other motives is definitely not nishkAma karma.





Do you know of any sadhus in this condition? I know of none.

I have no reservations, not a speck of doubt that Patanjali's wisdom here serves the spiritual development of the sadhu.

Thank you again for the post, and your thoughts on this matter.



Yes, the purANas are full of stories of people who have indulged in tapasyA for the sole sake of achieiving some siddhis like Lordship of the world. These people even have samAdhi due to sheer force of will, having some visions of Shiva and Brahma and other gods and attain boons, but the penance by itself rarely helps one to overcome the basal tendencies of the mind.

Patanjali is giving the result of various siddhis for the sAdhaka to measure himself as to where he stands with regards to spiritual growth. Getting siddhis is a certain progress because it is a good sign that somebody is getting knowledge of subtler principles of the universe. However, this knowledge by itself is not useful unless it will culminate with the knowledge of Atma - any intermediate location will not lead to mukti. siddhis may certainly be used - only for the purpose of motivating oneself into the highest stage of Yoga. Certain siddhis may even be useful for the Yoga itself - for eg, knolwedge of previous births may help understand on'es own mistakes in the past and will ensure that only the right path will be trodden this time.

All siddhis not directly useful for self realization may be ignored. After attaining the realization, siddhi maybe used if one still feel's so. Remember, we are at the lowest stage now. We have no power or siddhis. If the desire to enjoy siddhis will happen to us at this time, the temptation will be irresistible when you actually get them.

~RL

yajvan
12 January 2008, 08:57 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


No, it is not possible to have a desired filled day, and yet attain saMyama.
~RL


Namaste Rajalakshmi

your posts have been consistent and focused and easy to understand, thank you for this.

I am not sure what desires you may be thinking of, yet when one wakes and thinks, I will have some breakfast, that is a desire. I think I want to read, or go exercise. That is a desire. Some desires become so habitual, that one could say that is not a desire, I just do it. That is how subtle desires can be. Just want to see if we can agree on the 'intensity' of the desire. It does not have to be a desire to conquer the world, to want to own China, or 1000 cars, or 1000 houses.

That said, let me ask again Rajalakshmi, do you practice saMyama? Do you speak from personal experience? I have asked this of you and of others , yet await the responses.

Why do I ask? Many have offered posts suggesting what is good vs. what is perhaps a trap on this matter. Yet I hear of no personal experience, as this is of great value.

It's as if one goes to a doctor, but the doctor never had a chance to have a real patient. The doctor knows all the body parts, as he/she knows technically what to do, seen in a book, or heard from others, yet has not had a patient to apply the knowledge on. Or the neighbor that assists others with managing their children, yet does not have children of his own. While the information can be 'directionally correct', it also will be 'precisely wrong'.

It is knowledge + experience that rounds out ones skills... This together IMHO is called wisdom.

So from my POV of what value is saMyama? How will it assist ? Flying, or lifting mountains, or becoming tiny or large? This is like candy attracting the children to do their homework. The intent is simple and can be found in the Kathoupanishad (Chapt 2.2.6):
A wise man, having understood that the senses, separately produced, are distinct from the Atman ( Purusha) and also their rising and setting, grieves no more. Grieves no more = kevela.

Last and only offered as an fyi... there is no argument, quote, position, discussion or metaphor one could offer on HDF that would change my practice. I choose not to be a boat in the water of life with no rudder, going from here to there by the whim of the wind. The rudder is my teacher(s), the boat, the wisdom of knowledge of the shastras graciously offered with no expectation in return.

My resolve is firm, my direction clear; I do not harbor one miniscule doubt on my direction. To this I offer my pranams to the tradition that afforded and offers this wisdom, handed down from guru-to-sisya over the ages.

dhanyavadah

sarabhanga
13 January 2008, 06:55 PM
All desires (no matter how subtle or apparently trivial) create unnecessary attachments. And the proper attitude for sAdhanA is selfless resignation to one’s sacred duty, willingly performed but with no implication of personal desire ~ with the bonds of yama and the vows of dIkshA ensuring that personal desire does not enter into the equation of any true sAdhanA.

The sage advice of patañjali and of vyAsa has been given, and all other advice has only been repeating their traditional wisdom. And whatever one’s personal practice might be, it is the words of patañjali which provide the ultimate definition of aSTAÑga yoga.

The various limbs of yoga are explained separately for logical convenience, and they are grasped sequentially in preliminary practice, but it must be understood that the yoga itself comes in a perfect union of all limbs in simultaneous application.

yoga depends on the union of yama and niyama.

yoga depends on the union of yamAniyAma and AsanayAma and prANAyAma.

yoga depends on the union of dhAraNa and dhyAnam and samAdhi.

yoga depends on the union of saMyAma and saMyama.

And yoga depends on pratyAhAra ~ “withdrawal of the senses from external objects”, “dissolution of the world”, or “abstraction”.

Every limb of yoga is individually beneficial (in dvaitam), but the true yoga of sage patañjali requires the simultaneous application of ALL limbs. And this unified approach leads directly to moksha and the ultimate siddhi.

In advaitavAda, siddhi presupposes kAmAvasAya and saMnyAsa, and the siddhi can never be explicit or independently exerted in the realm of dvaitam. If personal siddhi is desired, it will not be achieved; and if siddhi is displayed, then moksha will be lost.

In dvaitavAda, however, kAmAvasAya is assumed as a siddhi itself, with desires being suppressed by their own satisfaction. The siddhi, of course, can only be used for good purpose, with ahiMsA being always presumed. And immortal existence may be gained, although this is an endless existence as a fixed presence amid the flux of continuous dvaitam throughout the manvantaram but destroyed along with the three worlds at the end, and reborn again in the next manvantaram to try again.

advaitavAda presumes saMnyAsa and aims for prajñA and moksha; while dvaitavAda is vAnaprastha and kshatriya dharma, aiming for AjñA (command and control) and prajana (begetting and growth) and amRta (salvation and non-death) and transcendence to bhuvarloka (in the air), but not the final step of moksha (liberation) and ajana (dissolution and non-birth).

In dvaitam, kevala means “exclusively one’s own (not common to others)”, indicating perfect distinction. While in advaitam, the meaning is without any hint of “otherness”, indicating perfect solitude, absolute oneness, total abstraction, absolution, purity, singularity, and simplicity, as the unalloyed wisdom of the whole.

siddhi (accomplishment or perfection) has quite different connotations in dvaitavAda and advaitavAda.

dhArana and dhyAnam may be practiced in isolation, and “saMyama” in dvaitam may lead to a kind of oneness with the object of concentrated attention, the focus of the meditation, and thus full control of that object may ultimately be gained. But advaitam and the ultimate siddhi of moksha are not attained without the simultaneous application of ALL limbs.

The “magic” of siddha yoga in dvaitam is the satisfaction of all desires as they arise, but the root cause of those recurring desires (i.e. dvaitam) is never extinguished; while the full discipline of aSTAÑga yoga renounces any personal desire from the outset, and aims for moksha and kaivalyam (“absolute unity, perfect abstraction, detachment from all other connections, detachment of the soul from its bondage to matter and thus from its duty of further transmigrations”, or simply “beatitude”) which is advaitam.

dvaita yoga aims for AjñA cakra, and possession of the full range of diverse siddhi; while advaita yoga aims for sahasrAra cakra, and the one perfect siddhi.

And, assuming that the heart and mind are already purified, saMyama may be practiced without regard to physical Asana or subtle prANAyAma (which are assumed to be perfectly maintained in all situations). But there is much presupposed in this “patañjali-lite”, which certainly presumes saMskAra and saMnyAsa.

yajvan
13 January 2008, 08:02 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


All desires (no matter how subtle or apparently trivial) create unnecessary attachments. And the proper attitude for sAdhanA is selfless resignation to one’s sacred duty, willingly performed but with no implication of personal desire ~ with the bonds of yama and the vows of dIkshA ensuring that personal desire does not enter into the equation of any true sAdhanA.

Namaste,

perhaps this is so.... yet 'proper attitude' is still one more action, a desire to act in a particualar way, done in avidya, still done in duality. Yet intent is good and positive, the best choice one can make while still in this condition.

Some say this is making a 'mood' of things and this too is one more attachment.

pranams

Bob G
13 January 2008, 09:31 PM
Spirit can see ego for what it is or is not, ego can not see Spirit at all.

Without egoless help, ego is not seen through - for ego is devious beyond compare.

Unconditional love is an irresistable and unfailing weapon in the great battle we face.

sarabhanga
14 January 2008, 12:12 AM
'proper attitude' is a desire ... to act ... in avidya

“All desires create unnecessary attachments” ~ with a caveat that “there is only ONE true desire, and that one heart’s desire is the singular promise of all true vedAnta.”

You quoted the caveat, and then asked, “Are there caveats to this?” !

I have further explained that “desire for advaitam arises in the mAyA of dvaitam, and in advaitam (of course) no such desire can arise (indeed, the whole dualistic notion of desire is inapplicable).”

And again elaborated that “all desires (no matter how subtle or apparently trivial) create unnecessary attachments. And the proper attitude for sAdhanA is selfless resignation to one’s sacred duty, willingly performed but with no implication of personal desire ~ with the bonds of yama and the vows of dIkshA ensuring that personal desire does not enter into the equation of any true sAdhanA.”




'proper attitude' is still one more action, a desire to act in a particular way, done in avidya, still done in duality.

Now, your response shows that you have (once again) either misinterpreted or completely ignored my words!

In the condition of SELFLESS RESIGNATION to one’s SACRED DUTY, there is NO IMPLICATION OF PERSONAL DESIRE, which results quite automatically since the bonds of yama and the vows of dIkshA ensure that personal desire does not enter into the equation of any true sAdhanA.

mumukshA (the desire for moksha) and dIkshA arise only in the context of dvaitam, and dIkshA is the turning point.

With dIkshA, any avidyA (in the mumukshu) should be matched with true vidyA (in the guru); and with true sAdhanA there should be single-pointed focus in every action, so that all actions become one action leading inevitably to the one aim of the sAdhanA.

“Proper attitude” is what determines dharma, so you are now suggesting that dharma, along with dIkshA, is without vidyA !! And such an attitude is surely improper for any discussion of sAdhanA !!!

Rajalakshmi
14 January 2008, 01:27 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~



Namaste,

perhaps this is so.... yet 'proper attitude' is still one more action, a desire to act in a particualar way, done in avidya, still done in duality. Yet intent is good and positive, the best choice one can make while still in this condition.

Some say this is making a 'mood' of things and this too is one more attachment.

pranams

Sage VishvAmitra is perhaps the best example for Yogis and the effect of siddhis.

1. He is initially a powerful kshatriya known as Kaushika.
2. It is his desire for kAmadhenu ( boundless powers) that makes him renounce the world and seek asceticism. However, at this stage his mind is not yet set on Brahma vidyA, as he is seen at odds with the pinnacle of perfection - vashishTa. But he desires to become equal to vashishTa without realizing that such equality is possible only in advaitaM and not in dvaitaM.( i.e by possessing any amount of siddhis)

3. Repeated attempts of vishvAmitra to subdue vashishTa fail showing that Brahma-jnAna cannot be accomplished as long as one is showing off.

4. VishvAmitra then looses all his tapasyA for apparently trying to do good for the king trishanku - display of siddhis by making heavenly worlds ruins all previous efforts. This is to show that even doing good for others using ones siddhis is harmful to oneself. If doing good for others were benefecial, there are many Yogis living even now, who can turn the earth into a paradise by their mere wish. But how can they do that, without jeopardizing thier own moksha? So the wisemen are just onlookers - they see the world as a leela of bhagavAn and do not consider themselves as being capable of changing the way it functions- and leave their siddhis behind.

5. Starting afresh, vishvAmitra peformed penance for a thousand years and obtained the title of rAjarishi - showing great advancement.

6. At this point, he falls to the charm of Menaka ( which is a siddhi) and wasted his efforts again.

7. Then he recovered again, and perfromed another thousand years in the Himalayas and became a maharishi, a stage of further purity and exalted stage.

8. Next time he is approached by another siddhi, he showed his anger and again lost his tapasyA. One must have equanimity towards siddhis and must be indifferent to them - neither desire them nor show aversion either! Desire and aversion are both colors! Nevertheless, it shows one more stage of progress as he has turned down Rambha.

9. Reflecting on his repeated failure due to his attachment and aversion of various forms, vishvAmitra then continued undisturbed sAdhana lasting for a long time - and attained the advaita samAdhi, or absolute equality with vashishTa.( as brahma rishi)


All these stories are mentioned for our benefit. We must not confront vashishTa with the aim of overcoming him, but with the aim of attaining oneness with him - this is possible only by adopting the advaitaM approach. dvaitaM approach of seeking siddhis and Ananda in lower realms is a rather circuitous way and leads to many hurdles on the way.

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.6 makes this issue clear - The man who desires transmigrates. But as to the man who does not desire—who is without desire, who is freed from desire, whose desire is satisfied, whose only object of desire is the Self—his organs do not depart. Being Brahman, he merges in Brahman.


~RL

yajvan
14 January 2008, 12:32 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste sarabhanga

I find it difficult at best to reconcile the posts that you have offered and take full responsibility for my comprehension. I am not asking for any additional clarifications here. I have have not suggested what you allude to, but do find it interesting you have come to these conclusions.

Be that as it may, this post IMHO is no longer a conversation on sharing ideas, inspection, and the like, and I choose disengage. Also - I want to thank you for the scoldings http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ... I am sure there is some good to come of it; I am sure they are well intended.


How can this be so difficult to grasp?
The grasping has been one of discussion.


Have you actually read any upaniSad?
Yes, but I do not have the need to convience others that I have done so.


you have (once again) either misinterpreted or completely ignored my words!
No comment.


And such an attitude is surely improper for any discussion of sAdhanA !!!
No comment.



forum - an assembly, meeting place, etc. for the discussion of questions of interest.


pranams

yajvan
14 January 2008, 12:39 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Sage VishvAmitra is perhaps the best example for Yogis and the effect of siddhis.

Namaste RL,
yes there is no doubt on vishvAmitra's wisdom... and thank you for the offerings on this post.

Perhaps you may see this as persistent RK, but let me ask again,

Rajalakshmi, do you practice saMyama? Do you speak from personal experience? I have asked this of you and of others , yet await the responses.

Why do I ask? Many have offered posts suggesting what is good vs. what is perhaps a trap on this matter. Yet I hear of no personal experience, as this is of great value.

It is knowledge + experience that rounds out ones skills... This together IMHO is called wisdom.


I thank you for your posts yet am looking for the sadhu that speaks from wisdom of experience.

pranams,

Bob G
14 January 2008, 01:49 PM
This thread seems somewhat like the Ever-Ready bunny (battery) that keeps going on and on :) :duel: ;) ... (along with several povs and much useful information)

Anyway, the sentences below were offered earlier from some guy on the internet - and they didn't have quotation marks around them...maybe it was an experience of a soul although not a "Sadhu" ?

Spirit can see ego for what it is or is not, ego can not see Spirit at all.

Without egoless help, ego is not seen through - for ego is devious beyond compare.

Unconditional love is an irresistable and unfailing weapon in the great battle we face.

Om

yajvan
14 January 2008, 02:48 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

This thread seems somewhat like the Ever-Ready bunny (battery) that keeps going on and on

Namaste,
this post was removed to limit and remove any perceived offense ( which I am still scratching my head on :headscratch: , but so goes the world)

Bob G
14 January 2008, 03:42 PM
Hello Yajvan,

Here is what I see as a cool & publically accessible quote: "These great feats are known as the samyamas, or the absorptions by way of a whole-souled concentration of one's being". D.L.S.

...Which I would interpret as headed straight towards Parasakti and Parasiva, thus not to same via a route through various powerful siddhis that may appear along the way.

No offense intended.

Om

sarabhanga
14 January 2008, 05:07 PM
We have been discussing sAdhanA, which is dharma in practice. And the very basis of dharma is a matter of “proper attitude”. And the proper attitude for yoga sAdhanA traditionally begins with dIkshA, which dispels doubt and guarantees the wisdom of the sAdhanA.

Consequently, I find the suggestion that “proper attitude is done in ignorance” rather strange.

The kshatriya RSi vishvAmitra inherited the dvaitavAda of mUlAdhAram, and his story is an archetype of yoga sAdhanA. Every sAdhaka becomes a kshatriya, and the guru becomes brahmA. And the process (and pitfalls) of transforming the kshatriya into a brAhmaNa is well documented in the long history of vishvAmitra.

yajvan
14 January 2008, 05:12 PM
Let me try again...


Hello BobG,
can you assist from YOUR point of view on the etiquette that was missed.
thank you

Bob G
14 January 2008, 06:12 PM
Yajvan, it was not that big of biggy :)

You deleted - and I deleted, probably time to move on or back to the main thread...in my pov.

Om

yajvan
14 January 2008, 06:41 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Yajvan, it was not that big of biggy :)
You deleted - and I deleted, probably time to move on or back to the main thread...in my pov.


BobG,
you are correct, a mountain occurred from a molehill. go figure.

For this string I have chosen to dis-engage, as the words are causing mischief and will continue, so I will go feed the chickens or something.http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

From a jyotish orientation this mischief is seen from the time of the original post was made ( the very first post) that misunderstanding could occur. That was the notion of my jyotish post, a learning opportunity for those that pursue this jyotish skill, and no more.

Thought you deserved this explanation. All is right with the world.

pranams

Nuno Matos
14 January 2008, 07:07 PM
Namaste Sarabhanga

" Consequently, I find the suggestion that “proper attitude is done in ignorance” rather strange. "

There is no "proper attitude" in advaita only on dvaita as the one self is openness without bounds, for that only found in ignorance and never in forgetting, that would be dual.
So please dear friend what is your point?


Hari om!

sarabhanga
14 January 2008, 08:02 PM
Namaste Nuno,

We have been discussing sAdhanA, which is dharma in practice. And the very basis of dharma is a matter of “proper attitude”. And the proper attitude for yoga sAdhanA traditionally begins with dIkshA, which dispels doubt and guarantees the wisdom of the sAdhanA.

My point is that correct dIkshA ensures that there is practically no ignorance in the sAdhanA. Of course the sAdhanA takes place in what appears to be duality, and the sAdhaka has not fully realized the unity (otherwise there would be no point in the sAdhanA), but the sAdhanA is done according to the dIkshA, without any ownership of the actions or the results, as an informed duty and inviolable promise.

dvaitam is mAyA, but yoga sAdhanA is not avidyA ~ at least not until the goal of advaitam is attained, at which point the sAdhanA is superfluous and the sAdhaka has become truly sAdhu.

When advaitam is truly known, there is no sAdhanA and no particular dharma, and the sAdhu is truly avadhUta. But if that perfect view is universally applied, then I suppose this discussion forum should never have been started, since all discussion becomes moot.

Rajalakshmi
14 January 2008, 09:40 PM
Rajalakshmi, do you practice saMyama? Do you speak from personal experience? I have asked this of you and of others , yet await the responses.

Why do I ask? Many have offered posts suggesting what is good vs. what is perhaps a trap on this matter. Yet I hear of no personal experience, as this is of great value.

It is knowledge + experience that rounds out ones skills... This together IMHO is called wisdom.


I did not want to answer this question, but since you repeatedly ask - Well, I try to practice....cant say I have progressed much so far...

How many people in the world are you expecting to have actual samAdhi experience? And even if people claim it anonymously on a forum like this, on what grounds will we beleive in their experience? And what do we do in case of conflicting views between two people claiming personal experience?

IMHO, we should listen to vasishTa ( scripture) rather than the evolving vishvAmitra ( experience). vasishTa is always firm and unsurpassable and can repel all doubts with ease. Until vishvAmitra reaches the excellence of vashishTa, he is a bundle of confusion and mutual contradiction.

Keeping this view in mind, all sAdhakas should derive their knowledge from the fountain of eternal wisdom - the vedas, the sUtras, Bhagavad Gita and the purANas. Personal experiences maybe given secondary importance because they are not reliable or neutral sources of knowledge. Even those with personal experience must validate their claims from the scripture for them to be considered as authentic gurus- certainly a person claiming to have knowledge of Brahman must have knowledge of the vedas right? (ekavijJAnena sarvavijJAnaM) These sources of knowledge have withstood the test of time and serve the purpose of all; the personal experience of individuals ( unless these individuals have reached the summit of wisdom) may not be suitable for all....

~RL

satay
15 January 2008, 02:03 PM
namaskar Rajalakshmi and Welcome (belated) to HDF!



Keeping this view in mind, all sAdhakas should derive their knowledge from the fountain of eternal wisdom - the vedas, the sUtras, Bhagavad Gita and the purANas. Personal experiences maybe given secondary importance because they are not reliable or neutral sources of knowledge.
~RL

Should this come with a caveat? My thought is this...

What of the personal experiences of one's guru?

Isn't it to the contrary, that 'all sadhakas should derive their knowledge from the fountain of eternal wisdom - their guru!' Granted that for some who do not have a guru, the vedas become the guru or what of the jagad guru? Shiva :bowdown: himself?

Rajalakshmi
15 January 2008, 11:10 PM
namaskar Rajalakshmi and Welcome (belated) to HDF!




Should this come with a caveat? My thought is this...

What of the personal experiences of one's guru?

Isn't it to the contrary, that 'all sadhakas should derive their knowledge from the fountain of eternal wisdom - their guru!' Granted that for some who do not have a guru, the vedas become the guru or what of the jagad guru? Shiva :bowdown: himself?

Hello,

munDaka Up gives the fundamental qualities of the guru we must seek

pariikshya lokaan.h karmachitaan.h brahmaNo
nirvedamaayaannaastyakR^itaH kR^itena |
tadviGYaanaarthaM sa gurumevaabhigachchhet.h
samitpaaNiH shrotriyaM brahmanishhTham.h || 1.2.12||

Examining the nature of the regions attained through action and finding out their worthlessness, a wise person should get totally disgusted with them, because that which is not made cannot be attained through what is made or done. For the sake of the knowledge of that (which is not made), one should approach, with Samit in his hand, a preceptor who is well-versed in scriptures and also established in Brahman.

The guru must be both be well versed in scripture and also be established in Brahman.

Personal experience is not the only criterion because such an experience ( except for the highest sages) is subjective. For eg, if you take vishvarUpa darshana as an experience criterion, no two sages would have the same experience. Then it becomes a question as to whose experience is more reliable or valid.

What will you do if one guru ( with some personal experience) says that desire for siddhis is acceptable for sAdhakas, and another guru says otherwise? This is why an accepted authority such as scripture is always needed. If a person is unable to find proof for his statements then his experience need not be taken as a valid pramANa for all.

There are three stages outlined for sAdhana - shravaNa,manana and nidhidhyAsana. The shravaNa phase is 'hearing' the truth from a guru ( i.e learning). The manana is introspection or analysis of the truth before arriving at a firm conclusion regarding the vedic truth. nidhidhyAsana is the actual upAsana or dhyAna which is based on what you have learnt and arrived at in the earlier stages. This is where you get personal experiences of various forms.

It should be noted that initiation and learning from guru, and his blessings are very important before the nidhidyAsana stage, which must also be supervised by a guru. Guru must have sufficient knowledge to dispel your doubts, because his experience by itself is unknown to you. It is only to the most gifted students that the guru will be able to give proof of his experiences. Rest of us know the guru's abilities only through his knowledge. If guru's words goes blatantly goes against shruti it is unlikely that he has experienced the actual truth, and probably only had some subjective sublatable experience.

In a world full of fake godmen and teachers, how will you pick the 'good' ones? Only by his teachings, which must be accordance with shruti. Miracles are not proof of one's divinity and we must be wary. We are certainly not dealing with those few to whom jagadguru Shiva is the guru, who may need no external guidance.

~RL

izi
31 December 2008, 05:32 PM
Yavjan is the right one, here, sorry - becoming a demon is so extreme. Do you really think that will happen? If you're afraid of it then yes, you most certainly can and will slip and fall. Fear is such a disastrous catalyst.

I would begin first with realizing the non-existance of others. You can try that. If that is futile then begin with yourself. If you can let go of preconceptions of yourself and your own actions or reactions, then you can get a handle on your judgements.

siddhis are for showmanship, but then, of course, what in this wonder-filled universe is not o_O