Seeing Gods in dreams

[explorer_of_the_mind]

I recently had a dream where both Krishna and Shiva appeared before me. I am not currently a Hindu; and I am not even sure that God exists. Now I have a question: do Hindus believe that the Gods appear to them in dreams? What am I to make of this?

[sm78]

What we dream is our own past experiences. Hence i wud think seeing gods of hindu pantheon in dreams means you had a hindu connection or to its deities. If nothing in this life, then probably an earlier life.

However cud it be that you had seen shiva and krishna in a TV serial or a book or something ?

[satay]

Namaskar,

Sometimes God showers his grace by giving darshan in a dream.

This revelation is to be kept secret or shared among only a trusted few, I learnt this fact after I posted my own dream about this on the Internet!

The dream transformed me from atheist to a theist.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Explorer,

I agree with what Satay has said. There are many people who experience or see a form of God in dreams, or more commonly their guru, but it is generally taught that we are not to openly speak of these experiences, except with the guru or a few people we trust.

I know that Sivaya Subramuniyaswami says in his works that when we begin to learn in the waking experience, we also begin our education in the dream states in "astral schools."

Aum Namah Shivaya.

[Rajalakshmi]

What we dream is our own past experiences. Hence i wud think seeing gods of hindu pantheon in dreams means you had a hindu connection or to its deities. If nothing in this life, then probably an earlier life.

However cud it be that you had seen shiva and krishna in a TV serial or a book or something ?

All experiences of God in the waking state are that of agni vaishvAnara - visions, voices etc.

All experiences of God in the dream state( or in svarga loka) are that of Taijasa- subtle visions, dream visions, subtle voice, mental visions etc.

All experiences of God in deep sleep ( or in Brahmaloka) are that of sarveshvara pragnya. Normal humans cannot have this - only rishis and yogis can have this.

The true God experience is the turIya Brahman - experienced only in samAdhi by the perfect jnAnin.

So no experience of God is to be denied. We must understand that in reality God experience cannot be localized in time and space, and all such localized experiences must be relative and subjective, and such experiences must ultimately give away to the highest realization.

~RL

[sm78]

What is experience of a God vs No God ??

I and everyone else regularly experience the waking (vaishvAnara) and dream (part of taijasa) states of consciousness. What difference (in terms of awareness and knowledge) does it make if a form of deity instead of a donkey appears before someone while dreaming ?? Isin't he is still dreaming...

On the other hand any mundane human experience can be sacred and has the potential to change the course of one's life...

******************************************************
Appearance of a deity may or may not have a special significance. Tantras indicate that
secret formulas may be revealed to someone in dreams. Such strong dreams which have
consequence on real life needs to be discussed with guru. Otherwise we are much better off not to be dreaming about our dream last night when awake.

[bhargavsai]

I think you are a pure person, only poor people get the vision of lord. At least I never got a vision of the lord, I think I just Imagine that I got a god in my dream, but your experience is different.

[Agnideva]

I think you are a pure person, only poor people get the vision of lord. At least I never got a vision of the lord, I think I just Imagine that I got a god in my dream, but your experience is different.
Namaste Bhargavsai,

Even if we do have any sort of vision or experience in a dream, I wonder if we will necessarily remember it in the waking condition. I, for example, very rarely remember what happened in my dreams, except if I wake up right in the midst of it. So, who knows, perhaps you've been graced in your dreams, and just don't remember it consciously! :)

Aum.

[atanu]

Namaste All,

Dream is the light body of the being, seen in variegated colors by the being itself (the Seer). Often the form of the Ishta devata, or a mantra, or form of oneself will be revealed. And again, usually, vision in Taijassa comes before a vision for meditation in waking time can be established and stabilised.The vision of God in Taijjasa is usually auspicious as is the vision in waking time.

During meditation one may span through three states of consciousness and it is said that one should be attentive of the visions that come up. Same is true of God visions in dreams. Though the vision itself is not the Self, but the form of the vision may prove to be the pivot of Dhyana.

Seeing Shiva, Parvati, or Vishnu in dream is extremely auspicious. Such will not happen without His approval.


Om

[explorer_of_the_mind]

I find this dream puzzling, because I am skeptical about God and reincarnation as well. Does one need to formally convert to Hinduism to worship these deities? Are there Hindus who are skeptical about reincarnation and God? I feel drawn to Hinduism, but still skeptical about it.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~
I find this dream puzzling, because I am skeptical about God and reincarnation as well. Does one need to formally convert to Hinduism to worship these deities? Are there Hindus who are skeptical about reincarnation and God? I feel drawn to Hinduism, but still skeptical about it.


Namaste EOTM,
As far as I can tell there is not official paperwork, method, or certificates needed for conversionhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...even the notion of 'conversion' seems a bit out of place. IMHO one evolves into this wisdom of sanatana dharma.

you mention
but still skeptical about it
What are your points of concern... perhaps we can assist.


pranams

[Rajalakshmi]

I find this dream puzzling, because I am skeptical about God and reincarnation as well. Does one need to formally convert to Hinduism to worship these deities? Are there Hindus who are skeptical about reincarnation and God? I feel drawn to Hinduism, but still skeptical about it.

Regarding reincarnation:

Option 1:
You beleive there is no soul. You cease to exist after death. In this case, you dont have to pursue any religion.

Option 2:

You beleive in a soul. After death, it has to have some existance. If the soul had died in ignorance, what happens to it? So it is logical to think that it will take another body to try again. If this doctrine is not admitted, then you need to accept some absurd doctrines that talk of permanent reward and punishment for following certain rituals and beleifs.

Option 3:

You beleive in no soul, but some kind of existance after death. (Bouddhas) Question you need to ask in these cases is how these fruits are karma are assigned to these 'no souls'. Without the doctrine of God or some superior being that assigns the fruits of karmas, doctrine of reincarnation or karma as 'cause and effect' does not have good basis.


Regarding God:

It is the responsibility of God to guide people who do not percieve God. If one does not believe it is fine, assuming of course one still does not violate the 'karmic laws'. If the atheist thinks there is none to question him and indulges however he pleases, he will be very sorry later.

[explorer_of_the_mind]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste EOTM,
As far as I can tell there is not official paperwork, method, or certificates needed for conversionhttp://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...even the notion of 'conversion' seems a bit out of place. IMHO one evolves into this wisdom of sanatana dharma.

you mention
What are your points of concern... perhaps we can assist.


pranams

Points of concern:

1. Karma - I find it hard to believe that our actions have consequences beyond this one lifetime. I do however, find it reasonable that we are shaped by our actions, and we in turn have the power to shape our actions.

2. Reincarnation - I always found it far fetched that a person's soul would leave the body for a new one in another place, even on the other side of the planet. How does this happen?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Points of concern:

1. Karma - I find it hard to believe that our actions have consequences beyond this one lifetime. I do however, find it reasonable that we are shaped by our actions, and we in turn have the power to shape our actions.

2. Reincarnation - I always found it far fetched that a person's soul would leave the body for a new one in another place, even on the other side of the planet. How does this happen?

Hello EOTM,
Yes, we are shaped by our actions... Let see if we can have a conversation and take it a little at a time.
You mention
hard to believe that our actions have consequences beyond this one lifetime Yes I can understand this.
There are a few flavors of karma... the actions that come in this life is called prārabhdha karma. The actions you do today can give you this type of cause and effect, it also can give you another called kriyāmana karma.

Some things you do today will yield fruit immediately or in the future. Now this future can be next week, next year, 20 years from now ( an investment in your pension). Like that, some things that happen in a past life can bear fruit in this life. I will give you an example below after I kinda set the foundation just a bit.

Some actions take longer to come to fruition. And some desires we keep are not fulfilled and may need to come to fruition in a future life for the conditions are not ripe to yield the desired results now. What shapes that future are actions and unfulfilled desires.

Now we have not talked of punya karma, vikarma and akarma as yet [ I mention this as others on HDF will read this and suggest the full story is not being offered... my recommendation is we take a little at time] ; Lets just stay with some fundamental idea that the impetus for another life is routed in actions that have yet to come to fruition and the unfulfilled desires still in the hopper.


Some of the things we talk about are a bit foreign to ones initial understanding. Lets say you have not gone to school and you ask 'why is there day and night?' And you ponder this. You watch the sun come up, and go down, and you think, ahhh! it's the sun that goes around this place I am at, and comes up the other side. Then you meet someone and you ask them of this phenomenon, and you give them your assessment.

Then the person informs you of just the opposite! The earth moves about the sun. But wait you say! Are you saying what I am seeing with my own eyes is wrong! How can this earth go around the sun! I neither feel any movement and I can see with my own eyes that the sun comes up over there, and moves over here, and never once have I felt the earth move even one inch, what are you telling me! go away, your information is not based upon observations.

Like that, when we talk of the actions of karma that influences future lives, its like explaining the sun going around the earth. You say, hey I do not remember any of these past lives, I have not talked to people that say they remember, so how can this be? Yet there are bodies of knowledge ( both people and scriptures/shastras) that give us this knowledge. They inform us that this notion of going from life-to-life is a reoccurring event and ( the good news) here's how you can stop this cycle... we talk much about this on HDF, the notion of moksha, of kevela or liberation, of this there are many many posts.
But what goes from life-to-life? we will address that in another post, but it is based upon vasanas ( you can search on this in HDF if you have interest), and the atman.

So just a few more things... Let say you are walking down the street and you see a coin on the street. The coin as it turns out is worth a large sum of money. Your life has now changed. While you were walking did you desire to find a coin? Did you even look for one? It just happened. Something came to fruition.

Now , you are walking down the street and you see a person walking across the street, yet this person in an instant is hit by a bus and passes on. Things come to fruition in this life...some will argue by chance, circumstances, fate, providence, all that. But things happening in this universe is based upon cause and effect. Some times the effect takes longer to blossom. For this person crossing the street was there the desire to get hit by a bus? Surely not, yet it happened (as I seen this 2X in my life so far).

Let me leave this idea here for now and see if there is some questions on it. There is no need to drink from a fire hose on this! If others wish to add-in, please do, but let's keep it simple so digestion and comprehension can take place.


pranams

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


So just a few more things... Let say you are walking down the street and you see a coin on the street. The coin as it turns out is worth a large sum of money. Your life has now changed. While you were walking did you desire to find a coin? Did you even look for one? It just happened. Something came to fruition.

Namaste,
I thought to add this today, as I was thinking about the person going to the auto dealer, thinking of a new car, of some happiness this may bring, yet in one second, he no longer is part of the living. How would he even think of planes crashing, with completely different thoughts and intent on his mind, his time has come to leave this good earth.

Today in my area 2 planes ( small passenger propeller planes) collided. The people died. Yet the plane's parts fell out of the sky, through the roof of a car dealership, and hit a customer looking to buy an automobile, and was killed.

On 9-11-2001 my friend argued to get on a plane, as she must get back home to California. The flight was over sold and she was the one picked to not board the plane. She was mad and upset... that same plane then crashed into the Twin Towers in New York.

When we look to action (karma) and what leads to a future action, connecting the dots ( the audit trail) is not an easy thing. Krsna says unfathomable is the course of action ( Chapt 4.17, Bhagavad Gita).

At times we ask what action brought this result ? why have I been rewarded or punished or why did this action give meager results?

Our thoughts, our deeds all setup influences in the environment. What we do has an effect. Sometimes the effect/result is not understood as one cannot connect the result with a past action one remembers... Krsna's note of how unfathomable actions are plays a key role here.

Or when one tries to even remember 'that far back' to understand past actions that were not part of this life. How can we remeber this? Our memories have difficut time to remember what we had for breakfast, let alone a past life. Krsna says I remember all my births, you ( Arjuna) remember none of them.

I have met two people so far in my life that say they remember the past life. They are was given to bragging. In fact they did not even bring it up from thier side. Now do I believe them. Yes, I could not see any motivation for them to offer this infomation as an ego builder or a lie.

No action stands independent... as we are all connected, throughout the human community, the environment, etc. actions we perform influence the surroundings. When the collective whole of society are acting within their dharma, and in concert with the laws of nature, the surroundings ( the universe) responds favorably - the rains come on time, the winds blow refreshingly; when there is an imbalance and discord, then that too is responded to and discord is felt throughtout... we may experience it as the atmosphere out of balance with droughts, excessive weather conditions (multiple tornatos, typhoons, etc ) that cause grief and damage.


pranams,

[explorer_of_the_mind]

Perhaps you could recommend some books and other resources that could possibly clear up these concerns. Thanks.

[explorer_of_the_mind]

I'm sorry if I offended you by my terse response. Please tell me more about karma in Hinduism. Does a person's karma influence their soul (atman) thereby creating their future lives? Coming from a Buddhist background, it is very diffucult for me to believe in a permanent soul. From my studies in Buddhism, I always thought that a person's actions (karma) influenced their consciousness, or mind stream, which carried on to future lives. If the soul (atman) is permanent, how does a person's actions influence their destiny?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

I'm sorry if I offended you by my terse response. Please tell me more about karma in Hinduism. Does a person's karma influence their soul (atman) thereby creating their future lives? Coming from a Buddhist background, it is very difficult for me to believe in a permanent soul. From my studies in Buddhism, I always thought that a person's actions (karma) influenced their consciousness, or mind stream, which carried on to future lives. If the soul (atman) is permanent, how does a person's actions influence their destiny?

Namste EOTM,
no offenses committed so no concern on your side is needed :) .

You ask if Karma affects ones soul - ones atman. The atman is stainless.
Yet what then is repeated, what comes back? If you would be so kind to look at a few HDF posts, I think it will help. The subject is vasanas:

1. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=627&highlight=vasanas
2. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=20339&postcount=2

3. But then you may ask , can we change?
try this post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2298&highlight=vasanas

4. Last then and the beauty of this, how to get out of samsara¹ ( some write saMsAra) , this cycle of birth-after-birth? I am hoping this comes to your questioning, yet lets lay the foundation first.

I am happy to discuss this with you...as are others on HDF.

pranams

1. saMsAra संसार - going or wandering through , undergoing transmigration ; passing through a succession of states , circuit of mundane existence , transmigration , metempsychosis , the world , secular life ,

[atanu]

I'm sorry if I offended you by my terse response. Please tell me more about karma in Hinduism. Does a person's karma influence their soul (atman) thereby creating their future lives? Coming from a Buddhist background, it is very diffucult for me to believe in a permanent soul. From my studies in Buddhism, I always thought that a person's actions (karma) influenced their consciousness, or mind stream, which carried on to future lives. If the soul (atman) is permanent, how does a person's actions influence their destiny?

Namaskar Explorer,

Almost echoing Shri Yajvan, I say a few things.

Can a moving object measure its own speed and know its own position? Can a fluctuating consciousness know itself? When you say "I always thought that a person's actions (karma) influenced their consciousness ----", you are referring to that which is objective consciousness of objects. Those are thoughts such as "I am feeling bad today"; "I am aching"; "I am a scholar"; "Oh. No, I am a thief"; etc. etc.

But such objective consciousness (which are concepts really), belong to a subject. And most Hindus agree that the subject is unmoving pure consciousness itself. This is called Atman, which is the permanent soul and which is One and untouched by Karma.


Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~


you are referring to that which is objective consciousness of objects. Those are thoughts such as "I am feeling bad today"; "I am aching"; "I am a scholar"; "Oh. No, I am a thief"; etc. etc.

But such objective consciousness (which are concepts really), belong to a subject. And most Hindus agree that the subject is unmoving pure consciousness itself. This is called Atman, which is the permanent soul and which is One and untouched by Karma.


Namaste atanu and EOTM,

a most insightful post.
The Kenya Upanishad, Prathama khanda, says in the opening sloka:
By whom (or kenya, the same name as the Upaishad itself) directs or implies (ishitam) the mind to alight ( patati or lights upon, proceeds) on objects?

The rishi or acharya ( some spell AchArya - the preceptor, guru, teacher) then says the following words: It is the ear of the ear, the mind of the mind, tongue of the tongue ( saying ~ speech of speech) and also life of the life and eye of the eye.

As atanu-ji points out this SELF, this atman is the initial cause, it is the pure subjectivity of all experiences, yet it remains unblemished from these experiences. It allows the eye to see, yet how then can this eye see the SELF/Atman if it, ITSELF, it the root of seeing to begin with?

Thus, the awakening and knowledge one gains is offered in the Katha Upanishad ( Khanda 1, valli 2 sloka 23) says:
This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas nor by intelligence, nor by much hearing. He whom the SELF ( Atman) chooses, by Him the SELF can be gained. To him this Atman reveals Its true nature.

Now does this infer the Vedas, and listening (which is at the root of the word of Upanishad) and pondering this knowledge is unproductive? Nope. All these things provide insight and direct one to the nature of the Atman, Being, of SELF. It is because this SELF cannot be grasped by the senses, that is what the sloka is inferring, this Atman is beyond the senses, and to experience it , it is svatasiddha, self-proven.

Connecting the dots. If it is beyond the senses, it is beyond the actions ( karma) that the senses incur. It is therefore beyond karma, and stainless. Krsna says it best in Chapt 2.23-24 of the Bhavagad gita:

(Verse 24 first) Weapons cannot cleave him ( Atman), nor fire burn him; water cannot wet him nor wind dry him away.
(Verse 23) As a man casting off worn-out garments takes other new ones, so the dweller in the body ( Atman, SELF, Being) casting off worn-out bodies takes others that are new.



pranams

[explorer_of_the_mind]

More questions:

How does one attain the Self (atman)? Are the body and mind a vehicle for attaining the Self, for seeing beyond the impermanent body and mind? That seems to be what the various types of yoga are intended for. Is that what you are trying to say?

Is the Atman pure consciousness? How would you define consciousness? Would you define it as pure undefiled awareness?

I am feeling more comfortable with the notion of a supreme being. I would say that I am a monist/non-dualist.

[atanu]

More questions:

How does one attain the Self (atman)? Are the body and mind a vehicle for attaining the Self, for seeing beyond the impermanent body and mind? That seems to be what the various types of yoga are intended for. Is that what you are trying to say?

Is the Atman pure consciousness? How would you define consciousness? Would you define it as pure undefiled awareness?

I am feeling more comfortable with the notion of a supreme being. I would say that I am a monist/non-dualist.

Namaste Explorer,

Actually the Self is never un-attained. It is satasiddha. However, for some reason, the thoughts are said to have covered up the unlimited, vasana free, blissful pure knowledge subject called Atman -the Self. One is actually very near to it in deep sleep and one is That in Samadhi - when thoughts do not move but full consciousness is retained.

Atman is neither consciousness, nor non consciousness, not unconsciousness. It is not definable. Atman is one who has ghana consciousness (unparted consciousness). Various definitions are only indicative. And the best definition, as per my liking, is given in Mandukya Upanishad (Turiya - the advaita being beyond the three states of waking, dreaming and sleeping) and in Kena Upanishad (which is given above).

There are many ways suiting the ripeness of sadhakas and at the summit they all merge. However, at the base of the mountain, the paths do not appear to be leading to the same summit and un-ripe sadhakas fight. That is natural only.

Body and mind are indeed vehicles of knowing the truth and also of enjoying the Self in many ways. The problem begins with the forgetfulness of the fact that the enjoyed objects are of the Self alone. Mind turned towards objects leads to delusion. The same mind when steady and stithi pragnya (established fully in ghana pragnya -- the subject "I am"; OM), is Atman only.

All sadhana is to tame this outgoing mind and make it unflickering, keeping thoughts of non-self out.

I hope this helps.

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

More questions:

How does one attain the Self (atman)? Are the body and mind a vehicle for attaining the Self, for seeing beyond the impermanent body and mind? That seems to be what the various types of yoga are intended for. Is that what you are trying to say?

Is the Atman pure consciousness? How would you define consciousness? Would you define it as pure undefiled awareness?

I am feeling more comfortable with the notion of a supreme being. I would say that I am a monist/non-dualist.

Namaste EOTM,

atanu has given you good information... many many posts here on HDF can help you with your questions. See the Meditation file folder for a wealth of discussions.

A very in-depth conversation was had last year on this subject.
Please consider reading the following:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

Also the wise inform us on how to experience finer levels of Being, of ourSELVES , they say withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal. What does this mean? please consider this post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1081&highlight=withdraw

There is much to talk about if you choose to pursue this line of thinking.
Many here on HDF can address your questions.

pranams

[explorer_of_the_mind]

Yajvan,

Thank you for all of the helpful responses. I will have to look at those links you posted.