Hindu Morality

[ScottMalaysia]

To me, it seems that Hinduism doesn't have an absolute code of morality. The Bible, Qur'an, and Tradition of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches lay down strict moral codes - thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc.

I haven't come across this in Hinduism. Is there an absolute moral code found somewhere in Hinduism, that says for example: Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, abortion is wrong? Is such a thing found in Hinduism? If so, where?

I know the Mahabharata talks about living a moral life, but what things are defined as moral and what things are defined as immoral? For example: fornication or sex before marriage. Is there anywhere in Hinduism that says that sex is only for within marriage and that any sex outside of marriage is wrong? The Kama Sutra seems to talk about concubines, and also eunuchs doing things with men that I won't mention here.

To me, it seems that the the longer you look in the Hindu scriptures, you will find a passage that agrees with your position.

Can anyone help me with this? For someone coming from a Christian worldview, it is important to me.

[Bob G]

Hello Scott,

I think a partial answer is that Hinduism says karma is 100% exacting...others may help us with our karma to some degree but the price of it still must be paid. Thus if we do this or that good or bad action, then a this or that good or bad action will come back to us...with many possible and unexpected magnifications!

Om

[sarabhanga]

All of these topics have been discussed at length here on HDF, so please have a search through this site for the answers you require.

When Moses came down from the mountain, he had Hindu scripture in his hands!

“No killing” is ahiMsA
“No false witness” is satyA
“No stealing” is asteya
“No adultery” is brahmacarya
“No coveting” is aparigraha
“No blasphemy” is shauca
“No other gods” is saMtoSa
“Remember the sabbath” is tapaH
“Respect your parents” is svAdhyAya
“No worship of graven images” is IshvarapraNidhAnAni

And the ancient oath to yama is ahiMsAsatyAste or “Surely mercy and goodness shall follow me all the days of my life”, without which no man may be considered a true kRSTaya. In fact, there is no morality in “krishtayanity” that was not already implicit (in its purest form) in hindu dharma!

vaidika dharma = Arya dharma = kRSTaya dharma (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=19483&postcount=18)

[Agnideva]

Namaste Scott,

You may also want to take a look at the Hinduism Today article called Hinduism's Code of Conduct (http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2007/1-3/24-27_conduct.shtml). It speaks of the extended list of ten yamas and ten niyamas compiled from various texts.

Aum.

[saidevo]

Namaste Bob.


Hello Scott,

I think a partial answer is that Hinduism says karma is 100% exacting...others may help us with our karma to some degree but the price of it still must be paid. Thus if we do this or that good or bad action, then a this or that good or bad action will come back to us...with many possible and unexpected magnifications!

Om

The doctrine of karma in Hinduism is not a case of 'as you sow so you reap' or 'an for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' repayment. If that be the case, a person who commits ten murders may have to be reincarnated at least ten more times to be slain by his victim! However, in my boyhood days our grandma used to scare us saying, "If you hurt a bird, in your next birth you will be born as a bird and the bird as you and it will hurt you the same way!" As we grew up, however, we understood that the real intention of her message is not its verbatim meaning, only an exaggerated caution against creating karma.

Karma in Hinduism doctrine manifests in kinds: for example, causing injury to another person might be repaid by the doer of that act either in this or another birth in the form of an illness or a negative mental state. Swami Sivananda has written a book that he has titled "Karma and Diseases" (downloadable at http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/karmadisease.pdf). In the same way, a serious illness, misfortune or accident might clear up many karmic debts of the past.

Therefore the 100% exacting is only in quatum not in the same currency.

[Eastern Mind]

To me, it seems that Hinduism doesn't have an absolute code of morality. The Bible, Qur'an, and Tradition of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches lay down strict moral codes - thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc.

I haven't come across this in Hinduism. Is there an absolute moral code found somewhere in Hinduism, that says for example: Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, abortion is wrong? Is such a thing found in Hinduism? If so, where?

To me, it seems that the the longer you look in the Hindu scriptures, you will find a passage that agrees with your position.

Can anyone help me with this? For someone coming from a Christian worldview, it is important to me.

Namaste Scott: Virtue is throughout the texts of Hinduism, but other than the yamas and niyamas, I know of no set standard like that of the ten commandments, that is so predominant in that religion's themes. You also have to consider the extreme vastness of Hindu scripture. Personally, I look to the yamas and niyamas, and my own common sense, as well as my Guru's thoughts on the matter. It is a good starting place for basic interfaith dialogue..a comparison between the ten commandments and the yamas. I think in the west it presents a bit of a problem, especially when some gurus look beyond virtue, and start teaching yoga etc., without first dealing with virtue. Then the unvirtuous student learns stuff he's psychically not prepared for as he's not yet sealed off the forces from below the muladhara. In the east, at least in my experience, virtue is taught from a young age, and entire communities practice it, so people more or less absorb it, or in another way, have their heads in the sand. (You only learn about what you get exposed to.) I do see a negative trend in this regard. In the west, especially on television, we are totally surrounded by unvirtuous conduct. Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Scott: Virtue is throughout the texts of Hinduism, but other than the yamas and niyamas, I know of no set standard like that of the ten commandments, that is so predominant in that religion's themes.

Namaste EM, Scott (et.al)

sarabhanga has a nice list above that resonates well and gives you the 'core' offer ... you can also consider the Laws of Manu. Here's one site, http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu.htm

pranams

[Bob G]

Hello Saidevo,

I agree with your post; good expounding by you. (the drift of what you said was also intended by me in the words, "with many possible and unexpected magnifications!")

Om

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Bob & Saidevo,

" I think a partial answer is that Hinduism says karma is 100% exacting...others may help us with our karma to some degree but the price of it still must be paid. Thus if we do this or that good or bad action, then a this or that good or bad action will come back to us...with many possible and unexpected magnifications!"

All karma must be burned! And all Karma ends up being burned.

" Therefore the 100% exacting is only in quatum not in the same currency. "

Yes 100% is the quantum and the currency is pain. Unless you resort to yoga and start your on independent ecological burning process, stopping the identification with the "unexpected magnifications" :D.
Less pain brighter mind, less errors longer life.


Om namah shivaya

[vcindiana]

SCOTTMALASIA:
Hindu Morality
"To me, it seems that Hinduism doesn't have an absolute code of morality. The Bible, Qur'an, and Tradition of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches lay down strict moral codes - thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc.

I haven't come across this in Hinduism. Is there an absolute moral code found somewhere in Hinduism, that says for example: Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, sex before marriage is wrong, homosexuality is wrong, abortion is wrong? ..............."


Moral codes are nothing but laws written by humans to keep some order in this world. There is absolutely nothing wrong. As we all know without these laws there would be total chaos or anarchy.
It is my view that Ten Commandments or the equivalents in Hindu scriptures as explained by Sarabanga or Manu’s stuffs are human ways of putting order in our lives, so we can have a meaning to this life and enjoy to the full extent. I am not downplaying these good moral rules , and in fact I do appreciate greatly that people in ancient days did recognize the need for such rules. These commandments have profoundly influenced in the write ups of the laws of modern world.
But I do have a problem in listing these laws in a divine sense. How many laws are good enough to keep us out of trouble? Is Ten enough? Or twenty enough? As humans we keep inventing more laws even today for betterment of ourselves. The dark side of these laws is that we as human beings in no way can strictly adhere to every law at all the time. I am sure all of us even for a transient period of time, have expressed anger or felt lust seeing a curvaceous woman. Hey, we live in this real world; no one is a saint here. But most of us do have conscious minds to correct our thoughts and control our speed limits. Let us be honest about it.
If we consider God as Love, then these laws and Dharmas would become secondary things. Love is powerful; it comes to us only in total freedom. Geeta puts it very nicely in Ch 2 verse 47. We as human beings have all the rights, meaning full freedom. Geeta does not say God has the right over human beings in their actions. Good or bad, we human beings have to make conscious decision about any action we perform. Imagine the flipside of this beautiful verse, no freedom means no love. Without love there is no law or Dharma.

Love..................VC

[sarabhanga]

Namaste VC,

So, you consider the Ten Commandments as nothing but laws written by humans! I agree that in their current form they represent a poor translation of the original law, but that law is certainly of divine origin, and without following the rule of Yama there can be no admission to Heaven.

How many laws are good enough? Just one! And that divine law has often been repeated to you.

There is NO requirement in Hinduism for everyone to feel no lust and no anger (etc.) for the whole of their life, but that is the noble intention, and only a perfect brAhmaNa could actually succeed (indeed, that is the definition of a perfect kRSTi or Arya). And moksha is guaranteed for such a perfect soul, but otherwise there will most likely be a return to mortal existence.

If we consider God as ahiMsAsatyAsthe, then all human laws become secondary.

And the oath of Yama must be made with sincerity and conviction, and in complete freedom, otherwise the promise is bound only to be broken.

Without ahiMsAsatyAste (“Surely mercy and goodness shall follow me all the days of my life”) there is no true law and no true dharma.

[saidevo]

Namaste Nuno Matos.



All karma must be burned! And all Karma ends up being burned.

" Therefore the 100% exacting is only in quatum not in the same currency. "

Yes 100% is the quantum and the currency is pain. Unless you resort to yoga and start your on independent ecological burning process, stopping the identification with the "unexpected magnifications" :D.

Less pain brighter mind, less errors longer life.
Om namah shivaya

As you have rightly identified, karma exacts by pain. Pain is a physical manifestation and is felt by mental suffering. Spiritual advancement results not in less pain (because karma would however exact) but in less suffering. Even the 'jnAnis' (enlightened) face the pain but they have no suffering as Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi said.

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Saidevo

" Spiritual advancement results not in less pain (because karma would however exact) but in less suffering."

Thank you for the reply. It was most welcomed.
I would like to cheer with you and all of the readers my on experience of Sadhana as I see it! For me spiritual advancement always result in less pain.
Suffering comes with pain like cause and effect any Fakir or Yogi can attest that. If there is no pain there is no suffering or reason for such.
Pain belongs to the body and is nothing but memory and suffering is caused by imagination i.e. non-self and the two belong especially in the mind.
When I said less pain brighter mind I mean it exclusively in a context of spiritual advancement i.e. in the cleaning and open of the doors of perception.As Sarabhanga pointed out all Sadhana starts in Dvaita i.e. a process dealing with karma, towards the realization and self establishment of non dual reality.

Just a final remark I think that is more easy for a sage to suffer i.e. sacrifice than to fell pain. What do you Folks and you Saidevo think about that?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Saidevo

Just a final remark I think that is more easy for a sage to suffer i.e. sacrifice than to fell pain. What do you Folks and you Saidevo think about that?

Namaste nuno, a good post, thank you...
If I may let me offer two data points, that I believe sum it all up ( for me);

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. - the Dalai Lama

Any one that says "I and my Father are One" does not suffer - from my teacher.

So what truth is uncovered here? It is those that are possessed of the SELF, they may in fact have incidents which bring pain, but that belongs to the body, to prakriti. Being established in the SELF, one's POV is from there , from Unboundedness, Freedom, Bhuma, fullness, outside the tri-guna... hence no suffering, as that is part of the relative world.

Now why does the Dalai Lama say suffering is optional? the jiva can choose to get on the path of knowledge and kevalya and understand the dynamics of this Life we all participate in... via moksha, suffering comes to an end. It is our choice to bring the unfolding that Fullness, Brahman, within us.

pranams

[vcindiana]

Sarabanga: So, you consider the Ten Commandments as nothing but laws written by humans!

Yes indeed, but I believe these writers including the ones who wrote Yama and Niyama were extraordinary people, inspired by their inner consciousness or divinity.

Sarabanga: Without following the rule of Yama there can be no admission to Heaven

I personally struggle with this concept of Heaven ( Moksha) or Hell or even rebirth. I have not talked to someone who came back to earth telling me his or her experience of such things. But more I thought about it, I feel it is none of my business to challenge someone with his/her strong belief or faith. I consider Faith comes in when knowledge runs out. Rational mind can in no way comprehend all the complexities of this life let alone supernatural stuffs. I do respect individual belief system.

Sarabanga: There is NO requirement in Hinduism for everyone to feel no lust and no anger (etc.) for the whole of their life, but that is the noble intention, and only a perfect brAhmaNa could actually succeed (indeed, that is the definition of a perfect kRSTi or Arya). And moksha is guaranteed for such a perfect soul, but otherwise there will most likely be a return to mortal existence


I did not mention about requirement to feel lust or anger, but it is basic human nature to have those qualities, it does not matter whether someone calls himself a Hindu or Christian or Muslim etc. But the divine or the conscience in each of us keeps us aware of what is good or bad and keeps putting us back in track. I keep making mistakes, but I will never grow unless I reflect on each mistake and try not to repeat it and if possible even try to correct it, hopefully I will have fewer mistakes, better human. But as humans we can never become 100% mistake free. As you mentioned, the goal is noble intension, I do not disagree with you. But is it “really” realistic to reach that goal as human beings? I am not trying to blunt, are you 100% flawless and perfect and you think you have secured a berth in Moksha ? One thing I do know that I can reach something like Moksha as long as I humble myself. I do not have to keep struggling like some holy people, Sadhus, Saints, Popes etc... My understanding of Geeta spells it out that we have no right in the fruit of action, that has to include moksha as well.
I do think there is profound meaning in this mortal existence, contrary to what you may think. If we do believe in a creator then it would’nt make sense to think that He thought this mortal life was just some illusion or a maya or a joke. I am convinced it is to experience the awesome Love. I do love this life and I am deeply thankful to this “divine’ guy? in me. He or she or the better word LOVE, alone keeps me reminding me every time I do something wrong. He says... something simple like this... HEY VC, Humble yourself, WATCH OUT…., CUT IT OUT, ….DO’NT TRY TO BE SMART, …. YOU BETTER STOP IT, Is that a right thing to do VC? Etc. Isn’t that what Advaita teaches us? The love is an internal thing, that keeps me transforming, it has to come from within, not like laws or commandments forced from outside

Sarabanga: How many laws are good enough? Just one! And that divine law has often been repeated to you.
If we consider God as ahiMsAsatyAsthe, then all human laws become secondary.

You appear to be a scholar in Sanskrit, please have some mercy on me, I do not comprehend your intellectual words, all I hope, and it says LOVE. Love is not a law, it is not judgment, it is not an authority. Love is divine. Laws, rules, dharmas, commandments, judgments are human things, not divine things.

And the oath of Yama must be made with sincerity and conviction, and in complete freedom, otherwise the promise is bound only to be broken.

I do not disagree with you, that we strive to be sincere in our conviction. But this is an “ideal” thing. Reality is we keep breaking the laws and oaths, Err is Human. Let us not beat our self or our fellow human beings for every bad thing we do. Love has an amazing thing of forgiveness, it does bring healing more than any laws in this world.
Sarabanga, you may find some ego in my writings but please pardon me if I wrote anything bad in those lines.

Love……………………….VC

[Bob G]

...when looking back over our lives from the long run (after lessons are learned) we are often quite thankful for the various forms of pain or suffering that we have been through and now understand!

Further, if we could begin to drastically shorten periods of time spent bogged down in looking back, (which includes the processes of struggling to integrate the meanings and events associated with pain and or suffering) we could then approach a state where transmutations of same...which seemingly had negative value - could be turned into deep blessings!

Love and Grace Is and has the power to do such as this, instantly or near instantly! (while consuming karma)

Om

[Arjuna]

Moral codes are nothing but laws written by humans to keep some order in this world. There is absolutely nothing wrong. As we all know without these laws there would be total chaos or anarchy.

Exactly. Morality is a social phenomenon and has nothing to do by itself with Revelation. The flock needs simple but strict guidelines, while the free individual has consciousness and intellect to see what is right at any given moment. Smriti-dharma [of any religion] is pashu-dharma – which is NOT for liberation. Following any set of commandments never helps in reaching the supreme state.
However if it is done with proper intention (that is for the sake of God) it is an indirect method, though imperfect and limited (ANava). Same is right regarding any behavior.

[Indra]

What hinduism says about gays and lesbians? Western liberals often claim that hinduism and buddhism respect homosexuals to justify homosexuality. I dont think that, i heard that in india homosexualit was or still is forbidden and disliked but western liberals say thats a relict of british colonialism. I strictly dislike homosexuals, i think its unnatural, my conscious says its wrong.

[Arjuna]

What hinduism says about gays and lesbians? Western liberals often claim that hinduism and buddhism respect homosexuals to justify homosexuality. I dont think that, i heard that in india homosexualit was or still is forbidden and disliked but western liberals say thats a relict of british colonialism. I strictly dislike homosexuals, i think its unnatural, my conscious says its wrong.

Why then do U care about this? :D It isn't a religious problem at all. I would agree that this is unnatural, but who are we to say it is "wrong"? If homosexuality isn't connected with violence, what is the problem for others?

Hindu culture originally was much less homosexual than christian or muslim. I am not sure it was tolerant, but supposedly it was unless homosexuality was shown openly. I think after muslim intervention homosexuality has grown up due to suppressing of normal sexual behavior.
It may be "forbidden", but don't forget that indian society is very hypocrite. The difference with the West now is only that is the West U may say U are gay and nobody cares, but in India U should keep this stuff with U. That's all.

Among buddhists monks homosexuality is common not less than among christian monks. Logical outcome of unnatural "brahmacharya"...

By the way, i have come across a notion in Vishnu-smriti which describes punishments and prayashchittas related to sexual "sins". Homosexual act there is considered much less sinful than having sex with a person married to another! In scriptures U may find really weird stuff :D

[Indra]

Why then do U care about this? :D

Because i think its a morality issue


It isn't a religious problem at all.

The guy asked the question about hinduism and morality.



I would agree that this is unnatural, but who are we to say it is "wrong"? If homosexuality isn't connected with violence, what is the problem for others?

I think its wrong because it homosexuality harms, if you do unnatural things it harms you.



Hindu culture originally was much less homosexual than christian or muslim.

Good to hear that.



I am not sure it was tolerant, but supposedly it was unless homosexuality was shown openly.

I personally would tolerate it too if it is not shown openly and if it is not promoted. I dislike most the gay subculture of the west with their tv programms, magazines,gay parades,festivals etc.



The difference with the West now is only that is the West U may say U are gay and nobody cares, but in India U should keep this stuff with U. That's all.

I think in india it is better. Open homosexuality harms the soul of little children.




Homosexual act there is considered much less sinful than having sex with a person married to another! In scriptures U may find really weird stuff :D

Adultery is very serious too, you humble and harm your brother or sister if you have sex with his/her wife/husband.

[Arjuna]

I think its wrong because it homosexuality harms, if you do unnatural things it harms you.

Well, first of all any mature and sane person has a right to harm himself is he wishes to do so. No one should stop him unless it implies harm to others. It is his problem and not yours or mine :)
Secondly, many things which are usually considered by moralists to be proper are in fact unnatural. Keeping celibacy is unnatural for example.


I personally would tolerate it too if it is not shown openly and if it is not promoted. I dislike most the gay subculture of the west with their tv programms, magazines,gay parades,festivals etc.

Agree regarding promotion. However i don't think it's socially good to hide these things, as they only take more ugly and violent forms when hidden. Pedophilia and homosexuality among monks and priests is a good example.


Adultery is very serious too, you humble and harm your brother or sister if you have sex with his/her wife/husband.

Wife or husband is NOT a property of her/his partner. If sex is done upon mutual feeling it is *natural*, that simple. I don't say it is better to have sex outside marriage (it may be or may be not), but state the right of any person to do as he/she wills.
All this stuff around adultery was developed to keep people under control. It has nothing to do with religion and spirituality.

Regarding homosexuality, it is unnatural, but i don't see any reason why it should be taken as a sin or whatsoever. In Tantrism it makes difference, but many other Hindu philosophies should not have any troubles with homosexuality (if social matters are taken aside). Moreover, in some sects homosexuality is considered as normal, especially in north vaishnavism.

[sm78]

Homosexual act there is considered much less sinful than having sex with a person married to another! In scriptures U may find really weird stuff :D

Why is this weird ?

[Arjuna]

Why is this weird ?

In a case of homosexual act one goes against nature (Dharma) and in a case of so called adultery – against social taboos only (dharma). However both are OK if no himsa is involved.

[Indra]

Well, first of all any mature and sane person has a right to harm himself is he wishes to do so. No one should stop him unless it implies harm to others. It is his problem and not yours or mine :)
Secondly, many things which are usually considered by moralists to be proper are in fact unnatural. Keeping celibacy is unnatural for example.

Ok if he really wants to harm himself we cannot stop him, but we must stop him from promoting that to others like gay parades, tv programmes,magazines etc...




Agree regarding promotion. However i don't think it's socially good to hide these things, as they only take more ugly and violent forms when hidden. Pedophilia and homosexuality among monks and priests is a good example.

Depends on how do you define "hide"... People can know that he is a gay but he shouldnt show his gayness in the public and tell us how proud he is to be gay, thats my opinion.




Wife or husband is NOT a property of her/his partner. If sex is done upon mutual feeling it is *natural*, that simple. I don't say it is better to have sex outside marriage (it may be or may be not), but state the right of any person to do as he/she wills.
All this stuff around adultery was developed to keep people under control. It has nothing to do with religion and spirituality.

It is natural that people get jealous when someone tries to have sex with his mate. They feel harmed and humbled if their cheat on them. Only a minority would be content with his/her mate having sex with others. I think those people are disturbed, they lost their natural instinct. No wonder most cultures and religions have conscious that adultery is wrong. You admitted that hindu scriputeres also says that adultery is sinful.



Regarding homosexuality, it is unnatural, but i don't see any reason why it should be taken as a sin or whatsoever. In Tantrism it makes difference, but many other Hindu philosophies should not have any troubles with homosexuality (if social matters are taken aside). Moreover, in some sects homosexuality is considered as normal, especially in north vaishnavism.

Sin is transgression of gods law, in the bible it is sinful, i dont know how it is in hinduism, i dont know all hindu scriptures but thats why im hear, to learn....

btw, some christian sects also consider homosexuality as normal

[kryss712]

Hinduism do have a code of morality.


Our hindu bible is the bhagavat gita.

The 3 scientific rules which have been stated in the gita are-

1. Forgo anger; one should never be angry in life whatever the situations. You will see that by applying self control your brain will change. Instead of screaming and yelling which will not resolve any problems at all your brain will think about solutions. So you will arise and become a superior person from only forgoing anger.

2. One should forgo desire including material; one should work only to remain active in life without any worries about money and success. For instance instead of buying a mercedes car one should buy only a small car and give the rest of the money to people in need. Vegetarism in the hindu religion also originates from the need to forgo desire. The desire to please our pallet.

3. Forgo lust; Not only before marriage but also after marriage. Lust occupies more than 80% of a man's brain. You will see that by forgoing lust you will free your mind and will have much more time for other activities. For instance learning...thats how students become gold medalist!!


Thats all....you have only to apply these 3 rules to become a better person : ) But the gita states that even the strongest man on earth won't be able to adhere to these rule. Do you want to give it a try for only 21 days? : )