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Sri Vaishnava
21 January 2008, 08:05 AM
Alright, I am gonna try this one more time. Most people who say Shiva is superior to Vishnu or that Krishna is an incarnation of Shiva or that Jesus is Brahma are pretty much sticking to misinterpretations. I will address this, and later on, if this is resolved, shall move on to refute advaita.

Identity of Narayana

Note: If you have a personal love for Shiva, that cannot be an excuse to decry this post. I am quoting Vedas, that is all.

Although many people tend to equate Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, there is only one supreme being from whom evrything emanated. The mahopanishad declares,

Thadahu- Ekohaavai Narayana Aaseeth. Na Brahmaneshano.....
Na nakshathrani, na suryo, na chandrama. Sa Ekaki na rametha.
Thasyadhyananthasthya yagna sthoma muchyathe.....

In the beginning Narayana was alone (Ekovaahai). There was no Brahma(nabrhama) there was no Shiva (na Eeshano), no sun, moon or stars. He was alone (Sa Ekakee).

No Brahma, No Shiva. There is no mention of Vishnu here, so we cannot say that 'Vishnu was not there'. Hence, this verse separates Vishnu from the other two.

Anya devatha like Indra, Agni, etc. at various points have been discounted from the race for supremacy in the Vedas. So the situation really boils down to Shiva and Vishnu. Here, it has been mentioned that Rudra was created. Any intelligent Vedantin would agree that this is the Mahadeva.

Adha punareva Narayanasoanyathkamo manasa adhyatha. Thasya
dhyananthasya lalatath thryaksha shulapaani purusho bhibrthsriyam, .........
thasyadeeshano maha devo maha deva.

Narayana again meditated. From the face (lalata) of the meditating Narayana was born Rudra with three eyes and tejas. He had renounciation and other qualities. Therefore he is regarded as Mahadeva instead of simply a deva.

Also, the Narayanopanishad declares:

Om ada puruhohavai Narayanoakmayatha Prjasnayethi..... Narayanth
Brhmaajaythe, Narayanth Rudrojayathe, Narayanth Indrojayathe... Ethath
rugveda shirodheethe.

Brahma, Rudra, Indra, everything emanated from Narayana.

Narayana Parabrahma srva karana karanam (Narayana is the cause of all
causes).

Now, people may argue that in some places Rudra is termed supreme. Or Indra. And so on. But clearly, the Vedas say that Rudra and Brahma are born out of Narayana. Hence, they are not eternal. Then, the fact is, 'Rudra' means Roarer or Howler and can be used as a term for Narayana as well. It does not indicate Mahadeva Shiva.

Shiva or Rudra is a common noun. Hence, Shiva can be used for Narayana. But Narayana is a proper noun. It cannot be used for Shiva. So when Shiva or Rudra is termed supreme, it simply means Narayana is the one being referred to here, because he is unambiguously declared as Supreme. Hence, it does not pertain to Mahadeva.

Shiva means Auspicious. So, when it says Narayana is Siva, it means that either 1) Narayana is Auspicious, or 2) It indicates that Shiva is endowed with one quality of Narayana. For instance, Brahma has intelligence, Indra has Aishwarya, Kubera has wealth. But Narayana has intelligence, aishwarya and wealth. So, Narayana is Brahma, Indra and Kubera, but that does not mean Brahma or Indra are Narayana.

Now, look at this:

1) Purusha Sukta of Taittiriya Aranyaka (3.13.2) refers to master of Hari and Lakshmi (Vishnu) as Purusha, the Supreme God.

2) . Visvakarma Sukta of Rig Veda (10.82) refers to Vishnu indirectly as the Supreme God.

10.082.06: The waters verily first retained the embryo in which all the gods were aggregated, single deposited on the navel of the unborn (creator), in which all beings abide. The reference to the navel of the unborn is an indication of reference to Vishnu.

3) The Rig Veda (1.22.20) states, Om tad vishnoh paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayah: "All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu."

4) There are also hymns in Rigveda which describe Vishnu as Jagathkartha -meaning 'he who created everything'.

5) Agni is the youngest and Vishnu is the oldest.

6) Rig Veda V.I.15b.3, for the importance of chanting Vishnu's name, "O ye who wish to gain realization of the supreme truth, utter the name of Vishnu at least once in the steadfast faith that it will lead you to such realization."

Now you may argue that Vishnu, like Rudra or Shiva, is also an aspect of Narayana, but this is refuted because nowhere in the Vedas is there any mention of Vishnu being created by Narayana. But there is mention of Rudra and Brahma being created by Narayana. Furthermore, look at this:

He who has no understanding, who is unmindful and always impure, never reaches that place, but enters into the round of births. But he who has understanding, who is mindful and always pure, reaches indeed that place, from whence he is not born again. But he who has understanding for his charioteer (intellect), and who holds the reins of the mind, he reaches the end of his journey, and that is the highest place of Vishnu.

~ Katha Upanishad.

The gods be gracious unto us even from the place whence Vishnu strode, through the seven regions of the earth. Through all this strode Vishnu; thrice His foot He planted, and the whole was gathered in His footstep’s dust. Vishnu, the Guardian, He whom none deceiveth, made three steps; thenceforth establishing His high decrees. Look ye on Vishnu’s works, whereby the Friend of Indra, close-allied, hath let His holy ways be seen. The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Vishnu is, laid as it were an eye in heaven. This, Vishnu’s station most sublime, the singers ever vigilant, lovers of holy song, light up.”

~ (Rig-veda, 1.22.16-21)

“Far-shining, widely famed, going Thy wonted way, fed with the oil, be helpful, Mitra-like, to us. So, Vishnu, even the wise must swell Thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations must pay thee solemn rites. He who brings gifts to Him, the Ancient and the Last, to Vishnu who ordains, together with His spouse [Lakshmi], who tells the lofty birth of Him, the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory even his peer... The Sovran Varuna and both the Asvins wait on this the will of Him who guides the Marut host. Vishnu hath power supreme and might that finds the day... ”

~ Rig-veda 1.156.1,2-4.

Hence, Vishnu is Supreme. Vishnu means all-pervading, and since nowhere has He been mentioned to have been created, we can take it to mean that He indeed is all-pervading. So, if he is all-pervading, he has to be Supreme, ie, Narayana. There is also an etymological connection between Narayana and Vishnu.

satay
21 January 2008, 09:43 AM
Namaskar Sri Vaishnava,


Alright, I am gonna try this one more time.


Have you tried 'this' before here on HDF? I don't recall.
Under a different id perhaps?



Hence, Vishnu is Supreme.

and, your point is?

How does this change anything for me? How does this help me, a practical common man?

What do you propose we do now that you have tried this on us one more time?

satay
21 January 2008, 09:56 AM
Ahh...Now I see your other posts.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=396&page=8

Here you said



It is as our Acharyas said, 'Ignore those who refuse to see the light'.


Yet, your compassion is such that you are chosing to ignore the words of your acharyas to try and show others the light yet one more time...

Sri Vaishnava
22 January 2008, 07:32 AM
I thought it was worth one more try, yes indeed. It is shocking to see people calling Krishna a Saivite and whatnot here, when the Gita establishes that there is NO-ONE above Krishna.

Look, if you have a personal love for Shiva, I can't help it. So, instead of sarcasm, please try to quote some authority to prove that Shiva is Supreme. Shiva is a great Lord, and I know many like him. But facts are facts.

The reason I am doing this is to show that only through Vishnu there is Moksha. Shiva can do a lot of things, but he cannot grant moksha. I quote Krishna:

"After many births, the intelligent person who knows me to be the cause of all causes surrenders to Me."

I quote Mahadeva Rudra himself:

"There is no doubt that deliverance is only through Hari."

Adi Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya and Madhvacharya...the 3 great acharyas all established the supremacy of Narayana, though their philosophy differed. Adi Sankara never established all this 'any of 6 deities' nonsense. Even when his mother, while dying, asked him to say something in her ear that would ensure that she would never be born again, Adi Sankara whispered, 'Govinda'. Not Rudra.

In the 'Sarva Dharman...' sloka, Krishna unambiguously says 'Mam EKAM saranam vraja'. If there were many gods who could give moksha, why does Krishna say 'Ekam'? It means only through HIM, not even through Shiva. If there were anya devata representing Krishna, he would say, 'Mam saranam vraja'.

I am not being sectarian. Sectarianism means condemning everyone to hell and saying yours is the exclusive path. But Vaishnavism allows everyone to know the truth, and even if other gods are worshipped, it does not mean hell. But a lot of births will have to be taken.

If people take offense simply because the true purport of the Vedas is shown, it is unfortunate. Because if you take 'Rudra is Supreme' from Vedas literally, a lot of contradictions arise. Only Vishnu Supremacy can solve the riddle of the Vedas.

Rajalakshmi
22 January 2008, 09:18 AM
Namaste Sri Vaishnava,

I am impressed at your bhakti for Vishnu- no problems with that.

I want to ask you one simple question. When you worship or meditate on Vishnu, you imagine some form of Vishnu right? When a Shaivite worships or meditate on Shiva, he imagines some form of Shiva right? So the difference between you two is just the form of Vishnu, perhaps a God with four arms with discus, conch etc, and that of the Shaivite is a form with matted locks and a trident in hand. So what is the stuff that matters here to classify one as vaishNavite and another as shaivite? Is it the form? Is it the weapons? Is the number of heads or hands? Is it the name? So how do you think Vishnu worship is superior? Please give us a logical justification at the level of the common man - we can worry about who is superior later.

~RL

Sri Vaishnava
22 January 2008, 09:27 AM
A shaivite meditates on Shiva and asks for Moksha. His prayers indirectly reach the antaryamin in Shiva, ie, the avatar of Brahman (Vishnu) who resides in Shiva and gives him the powers of destruction - Sankarshana.

Hence, his prayers in an indirect way go to Vishnu-Sankarshana. But because the Shaivite wrongly identifies Shiva as supreme and does not know about Sankarshana, he takes another birth. Lord Krishna verified that a person takes many births before he directly surrenders to Him (Krishna).

We all have antaryamin avatars. The difference between us and Shiva is that Shiva's antaryamin gives him powers.

Shiva can do everything but give Moksha.

Vishnu is completely Brahman. Hence, only He can give moksha.

Note - If you recognise the Sankarshana avatar residing in shiva and pray to shiva by thinking of him as the body of Narayana, you will get moksha. No problems there.

Rajalakshmi
22 January 2008, 09:30 AM
You still did not answer my question. What differentiates Shiva from Vishnu for the common man, because neither the vaishnavite nor the shaivite have ever seen either of these gods apart from photos and idols. Is it the Shiva form that is bothering you? Please tell us.

Sri Vaishnava
22 January 2008, 09:40 AM
Your question is moronic. It is because the common man cannot understand that Vishnu is superiorly different from Shiva that the problem arises. Lord Krishna says in the Gita,

'Based on Sattva, Rajas, Tamo Gunas, I have created different types of faith. I reside in people's hearts and keep them steady in that faith.'

Typically, as an advaitin, you would call them mythological. But for shaivites and vaishnavites, both shiva and vishnu exist. it is the question of WHO IS SUPERIOR. Vaishnavites know that the Vedas say that ONLY VISHNU CAN GRANT MOKSHA, NOT SHIVA. HENCE THE PROBLEM.

If all people understood the difference between shiva and vishnu, it would be great. Affection for shiva develops because the Vishnu residing in the shaivite's heart grants him that ability, so he is rendered unable to differentiate...worship of anya devata is due to past karma and present conditions.

Ganeshprasad
22 January 2008, 05:35 PM
Shiva can do everything but give Moksha.

What if i give you evidence from Srimad Bhagvat, that it is he who give Moksa.



Vishnu is completely Brahman. Hence, only He can give moksha.

Is there such thing as incomplete Brahman?



Note - If you recognise the Sankarshana avatar residing in shiva and pray to shiva by thinking of him as the body of Narayana, you will get moksha. No problems there.

How is this saying any different, as saying in essence there no different between the two.
here again i can quote you from Bhagvat Lord Vishnu saying it, if you like. And what can be more explicit then when Krishna says so in Gita.

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
22 January 2008, 05:53 PM
What if i give you evidence from Srimad Bhagvat, that it is he who give Moksa.



Is there such thing as incomplete Brahman?



How is this saying any different, as saying in essence there no different between the two.
here again i can quote you from Bhagvat Lord Vishnu saying it, if you like. And what can be more explicit then when Krishna says so in Gita.

Jai Shree Krishna


Welcome back! Nice to see you posting Ganeshprasad.

pranams

Ganeshprasad
22 January 2008, 06:14 PM
Pranam yajvan


Welcome back! Nice to see you posting Ganeshprasad.

pranams

Thank you, i had a lovely break and good time in India visiting many holy places, and the iceing on the cake was unplanned visit and puja at Pashupati nath in Nepal.
ofcourse from time to time i did checked up the forum.

Jai Shree Krishna

satay
22 January 2008, 07:14 PM
Namaskar Ganeshprasad,
Welcome back! We have been missing you.

I was just thinking of you last night while browsing the forum. :)

Good to read that your visit was excellent in India.

Sri Vaishnava
23 January 2008, 05:24 AM
What if i give you evidence from Srimad Bhagvat, that it is he who give Moksa.

Srimad Bhagavatam? Please do.


Is there such thing as incomplete Brahman?

On the contrary, all devas are endowed with one or two qualities of Brahman. When I said 'completely' Brahman, I meant Vishnu is Narayana incarnate, whereas the Devas are bestowed with a few powers by Narayana/Vishnu.


How is this saying any different, as saying in essence there no different between the two.

Anybody who recognises that Shiva gets his powers from Sankarshana will be acknowledging the supremacy of Vishnu. Hence, he prays to Shiva in the knowledge that Vishnu is responsible for Shiva's powers. So, he gets Moksha. It is because people don't understand this subtle difference that so many problems arise.

Ganeshprasad
23 January 2008, 06:37 AM
Pranam Satay,

thank you.

Ganeshprasad
23 January 2008, 07:17 AM
Pranam


Srimad Bhagavatam? Please do.

here it is,

śrī (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/sri)-prajāpataya ūcuḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/u/ucuh)
deva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/d/deva)-deva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/d/deva) mahā (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/maha)-deva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/d/deva)
bhūtātman bhūta (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bhuta)-bhāvana (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bhavana)
trāhi (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/trahi) naḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/n/nah) śaraṇāpannāḿs
trailokya (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/trailokya)-dahanād viṣāt (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/v/visat)

The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all Deva, Mahādeva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/mahadeva), Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.Bhagvat 8.7.21

tvam (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/tvam) ekaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/e/ekah) sarva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/sarva)-jagata (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/j/jagata)
īśvaro bandha (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bandha)-mokṣayoḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/moksayoh)
taḿ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/tam) tvām (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/tvam) arcanti (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/arcanti) kuśalāḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/kusalah)
prapannārti-haraḿ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/h/haram) gurum (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/g/gurum)

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.Bhagvat8.7.22






On the contrary, all devas are endowed with one or two qualities of Brahman. When I said 'completely' Brahman, I meant Vishnu is Narayana incarnate, whereas the Devas are bestowed with a few powers by Narayana/Vishnu.

Brahman is indivisible, so if some devas exhibit few qualities does it follow that brahman is incomplete?





anybody who recognises that Shiva gets his powers from Sankarshana will be acknowledging the supremacy of Vishnu. Hence, he prays to Shiva in the knowledge that Vishnu is responsible for Shiva's powers. So, he gets Moksha. It is because people don't understand this subtle difference that so many problems arise.

Problem for who? why should any one be bothered who i worship, i am trying to understand how would this affect your sadhna? for us it should be important that we have sadachar in our actions, Dharma acharan is more important than to get bogged down in this hierarchy concept.

Jai Shree Krishna

Sri Vaishnava
24 January 2008, 06:05 AM
Pranam



here it is,

[quote]śrī (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/sri)-prajāpataya ūcuḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/u/ucuh)
deva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/d/deva)-deva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/d/deva) mahā (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/maha)-deva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/d/deva)
bhūtātman bhūta (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bhuta)-bhāvana (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bhavana)
trāhi (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/trahi) naḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/n/nah) śaraṇāpannāḿs
trailokya (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/trailokya)-dahanād viṣāt (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/v/visat)

The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all Deva, Mahādeva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/mahadeva), Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.Bhagvat 8.7.21.

tvam (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/tvam) ekaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/e/ekah) sarva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/sarva)-jagata (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/j/jagata)
īśvaro bandha (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bandha)-mokṣayoḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/moksayoh)
taḿ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/tam) tvām (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/t/tvam) arcanti (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/arcanti) kuśalāḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/kusalah)
prapannārti-haraḿ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/h/haram) gurum (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/g/gurum)

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.Bhagvat8.7.22

This is explained as follows:

"Since Lord Shiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Vishnu? Lord Brahma creates, and Lord Shiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva are incarnations of Lord Vishnu and are known as saktyavesa-avataras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Vishnu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Shiva actually ;Lord Vishnu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Shiva is meant for destruction. Lord Shiva is one of the Isvaras, or the controllers known as saktyavesa-avataras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Vishnu."

So you see, any devotee who prays with the knowledge that Shiva is blessed with powers by Vishnu can get deliverance. The Devas are in greater knowledge than us, and knew that. If you think Shiva gets his powers by himself, and is equal/superior to Vishnu, it won't get you liberation.

If Vishnu desired, he can remove the powers from Shiva. Just like Parasurama, who was defeated by Rama. And you know even Vaishnavas do not worship Parasurama. Because he was a Shaktyavesa Avatar, which is only a Jivatma endowed with a few attributes of Vishnu. Rama was a Purna Avatar, ie, Vishnu Himself.

The reason Hari asked Shiva to drink the poison is simply because it is the leela (play) of the Lord. He likes to give his devotees and servants a role as well. Otherwise, Vasudeva can do everything by himself;there would be no need for Devas, Universe or even us.



Brahman is indivisible, so if some devas exhibit few qualities does it follow that brahman is incomplete?

Gita says, 'though I may appear divided, I am undivided.'

The Devas are jivatmas. They are just like you and me. Just common atman. But everyone has the Supersoul, the antaryami, dwelling within them. For the Devas, the antaryami provides powers. For us, it does nothing. That antaryami is Vishnu.

They are NOT Brahman. The antaryami within them is Brahman. The antaryami has all attributes, but imparts a few only to the devas.

Since all beings are part of Vishnu's body, Vishnu can say 'I am Shiva, I am Indra'. Just like Krishna said in Gita, 'I am Sankara'. But Shiva cannot say 'I am Vishnu'.

Adi Sankara said in his Bhaja Govindam, "The same Vishnu dwells in me, you and everything. If you wish to attain the quality of Vishnu, have Sama Bhaava always."

Ganeshprasad
24 January 2008, 06:57 AM
Pranam

I am afraid there is no meaningful discussion to have here, all you are giving is your opinion.

You said no one but but Vishnu can give Moksa but i provide you proof Lord Shiva Gives Moksa. end of story, instead you have to qualify with your opinion.

you say Devas are Jivas but according to Sri Arjun after seeing the Vishvaroop he says thus,

vayur yamo 'gnir varunah sasankah
prajapatis tvam prapitamahas ca
namo namas te 'stu sahasra-krtvah
punas ca bhuyo 'pi namo namas te

You are Vaayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Shashaanka, and Brahmaa as well as the father of Brahmaa. Salutations to You a thousand times, and again and again salutations to You. (11.39)

So you i accept what Gita say and not merely opinions that is blinded by hierarchy problem.

you said in another thread we accept all Purans and yet because it does not fit in with your views you reject those so called
Tamsik purans,(as if to say you know better then Sri Vyasdev) therefor i provided you from Bhagvat puran the evidence, but i knew that would be too much for you to swallow. Better pray to Lord Shiva for he knows how to digest the Halahal Vish (poison)

Jai Shree Krishna

Sri Vaishnava
24 January 2008, 07:03 AM
Throughout this thread I have been posting with proof. Look at my first post.

the issue of Shiva giving moksha is explained by Narayana in Mahabharata as follows:

"The Devas pray to Lord Siva for protection. Lord Siva prays to Lord Brahma in turn. Lord Brahma prays to Me. I am the sole refuge of all, and there is no one above me."

Thus, Siva is indeed prayed to by Devas, but look who the prayers reach ultimately.

The Shiva Purana is tamasic. The Puranas classify themselves. I have posted the reason why quite a while ago.


In any case, yes, Arjuna saw all the Devas in the Viswaroop. The Vedas say that everything is the body of Brahman. The Devas are different limbs of Brahman. The Universe is the body of Brahman. We are also the body of Brahman.

Hence, Arjuna saw Brahma and Shiva in the body of Krishna, who is Vishnu.

satay
24 January 2008, 09:51 AM
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