PDA

View Full Version : Regarding recent discussions...



Rajalakshmi
22 January 2008, 02:36 AM
Namaste Atanu-ji,



I do not know where from you are coming and where you are going. I suggest that you note down your key understandings of one theory (or at
least your theory) in a separate thread and then we can compare notes.


I dont wish that we miss an opportunity to discuss this just because of difference of opinions. Let us be open and not miss a discussion in
fear of contfronting each other views. You are all very knowledgeable guys and know what you are saying. I am an active debator on some
forums with dvaitins, dvaitAdvaitins and even other advaitins and I know how many different POV exist - each person is a philosophy.:)

You have somehow assumed that there is exactly one version of Advaita and seem to accuse me straying from the principles of Advaita. Let me
tell you that there are atleast these variants of advaita:

advaita-K ( kEvalAdvaita of Sri shankara )
advaita-G ( advaita of Sri GowDapAda ),
advaita-A ( from AnandaGiri )
advaita-M ( from MS - advaita siddhi ),
advaita-Nn ( from neo-vedAntins ),
advaita-PV ( from PadmapAda , prakAshAtman of the vivaraNa school ),
advaita-SN ( from SurEshwara naishkarmya-siddhi ),
advaita-VB ( from vAcaspati Mishra of the bhAmatI school ),
advaita-VI ( from vimuktAtman of the IshTasiddhi school ),
advaita-GB ( from gangApuri bhaTTAraka ),
advaita-AD ( appayya-dIkshita)
advaita-P ( prakAshAnanda ),
advaita-KS ( kAshmIraka sadAnanda )

In addition to these there are
advaita-V ( from Vivekananda)
advaita-Y ( Yogananda school)
advaita-R (Ramana) and more...

Adding to the confusion, we have
advaita-RL ( from Rajalakshmi)
advaita-AT ( Atanu's )
advaita - SH (Sharabhanga) etc

You might think that the differences between the variants is superficial, but unfortunately no.

I found to my great surprise that there is a variant of Shankaran advaita that denies jagat mithyatava.
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that denies the very concept of jIvanmukta, and claims that no jIva has ever been liberated yet!(advaita-P)
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that called Lord Krishna to be in avidyA mode.

So, we need to clarify many things before we call ourselves advaitins. This is advaita, this is not advaita - does not cut it.

In addition to the above factors, advaitins like me also do not accept veda apourusheyatva as taught by the tradition, and I beleive that there can be new revelations now and in future. Most traditional advaitins deny the authenticity of all upanishads except the principal sixteen, while many of us accept the muktika canon. Most the material written on this forum( like cakra, samAdhi etc) would be rejected by the classical advaitin, In that respect, this is a great forum that allows great variety in thought - where every idea is not opposed and rejected just because it is not there in the principal upanishads.



Waking deep sleep is Turya and not Prajna. And I do not know where from you derive that Visvarupa is Sarvesvara, as spoken of in Mandukya.
Yet you are not comprehending "NOT-TWO", that there is no other.Prajna state is ghana, which is revealed pure intelligence. There is no
Visva in it yet. Visva and beings are after the pure intelligence and not before it. There is no part in it, though it is the source of all
and it is the dissolution of all.


There are four states of 'enlightened consciousness'.( or supra awareness)

shAnta jAgrat - is also called restful wakefulness or peaceful wakefulness.
jAgrat-svapna - lucid dreaming or wakeful dreaming
jAgrat-shushupti - wakeful deepsleep
turya - Absolute non dualty.

The state of each of these have been furnished in the mANDUkya. shAnta jAgrat is the super awareness of gross nature. At its limit, it can confer on you complete knowledge of the entire physical universe called bhU loka, bhuvar loka and part of suvar loka. jAgrat-svapna is the super awareness of subtle nature, i.e the world of mind and subtle element, also known as manomaya kosha. This covers suvarloka, maharloka and janarloka. jagrat-shushupti is the super awareness of the causal( and super casual nature) , i.e vijnAnamaya kosha and Anandamaya kosha. This covers taparloka, satyaloka, and other lokas of Ishvara all up to param padaM of vishNu. turya is the indescribable Absolute. VishvarUpa darshana has been refererred to as:

manyase yadi tachchhakyaM mayA draShTumiti prabho .
yogeshvara tato me tva.n darshayAtmAnamavyayam.h (11.4)

Note the word 'avyayaM' in the request of Arjuna. It means Arjuna desires to see the complete form of Ishvara. This vision is a special one, not available to most Yogis on earth.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH (11.52)

The word 'sudurdarshamidaM' shows that the vision is extremely rare. And it also mentions that even devatAs rarely get to see this form of Ishvara.

na tu mA.n shakyase draShTumanenaiva svachakShuShA .
divya.n dadAmi te chakShuH pashya me yogamaishvaram.h (11.8)

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara. divya chakshuH is nothing but the third eye of Rudra- the higher AjJa cakra.
There is considerable dualty in the experience as anyone reading this adhyAya will find, but vishvarUpa cannot be described because it is the infinite form of Ishvara with all his infinitely manifested opulences. With all the above reasoning, we can safely conclude that vishvarUpa is the highest possible experience of mAyA. It is certainly dualistic because mAyA is characterised by dualty. Therefore, this experience is that of jAgrat-shushupti only.

Can you classify vishvarUpa as vishva or taijasa, which can hardly be classifed as the complete, most difficult to see, third eye vision? Also note this:

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h .
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdya.n
yanme tvadanyena na dR^iShTapUrvam.h (11.47)

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara, and cannot be anything short of the full glory of Ishvara. Yoga vAsishTa classies Arjuna as a jIvanmukta at the asaMsakti level. Bhagavata also mentions Arjuna to be a jnAni. What vishvarUpa darshana implies is that, Arjuna has infact realized 'almost' the Self at this point, amidst the dualty - temporarily. And withdrawn due to his vAsanas. It is not turya because there is knower-known distinction in that vision. So it is a dvaitAdvaita experience of the Self( not the highest possible which is possible only in identity).






----------------------
Mandukya says the following.
Where the sleeper desires not a thing of enjoyment and sees not any dream, that state is deep sleep. (The Self) seated in the state of deep
sleep and called Prajna, in whom everything is unified, who is dense with consciousness, who is full of bliss, who is certainly the enjoyer
of bliss, and who is the door to the knowledge (of the preceding two states), is the third quarter.
This is the Lord of all; this is omniscient; this is the in-dwelling controller (of all); this is the source and indeed the origin and
dissolution of all beings.
Karikas say the following

I-12. Prajna knows neither himself nor others, neither truth nor untruth. But that Turiya is ever the all seer.
I-13. The non-cognition of duality is common to both Prajna and Turiya. Prajna is possessed of sleep of the nature of cause, whereas that
sleep does not exist in Turiya.
-------------------------


mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

~RL

atanu
22 January 2008, 03:40 AM
Namaste Atanu-ji,

I dont wish that we miss an opportunity to discuss this just because of difference of opinions. Let us be open and not miss a discussion in
fear of contfronting each other views. You are all very knowledgeable guys and know what you are saying. I am an active debator on some
forums with dvaitins, dvaitAdvaitins and even other advaitins and I know how many different POV exist - each person is a philosophy.:)

You have somehow assumed that there is exactly one version of Advaita and seem to accuse me straying from the principles of Advaita. Let me
tell you that there are atleast these variants of advaita:

advaita-K ( kEvalAdvaita of Sri shankara )
advaita-G ( advaita of Sri GowDapAda ),
advaita-A ( from AnandaGiri )
advaita-M ( from MS - advaita siddhi ),
advaita-Nn ( from neo-vedAntins ),
advaita-PV ( from PadmapAda , prakAshAtman of the vivaraNa school ),
advaita-SN ( from SurEshwara naishkarmya-siddhi ),
advaita-VB ( from vAcaspati Mishra of the bhAmatI school ),
advaita-VI ( from vimuktAtman of the IshTasiddhi school ),
advaita-GB ( from gangApuri bhaTTAraka ),
advaita-AD ( appayya-dIkshita)
advaita-P ( prakAshAnanda ),
advaita-KS ( kAshmIraka sadAnanda )

In addition to these there are
advaita-V ( from Vivekananda)
advaita-Y ( Yogananda school)
advaita-R (Ramana) and more...

Adding to the confusion, we have
advaita-RL ( from Rajalakshmi)
advaita-AT ( Atanu's )
advaita - SH (Sharabhanga) etc

You might think that the differences between the variants is superficial, but unfortunately no.

I found to my great surprise that there is a variant of Shankaran advaita that denies jagat mithyatava.
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that denies the very concept of jIvanmukta, and claims that no jIva has ever been liberated yet!(advaita-P)
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that called Lord Krishna to be in avidyA mode.

So, we need to clarify many things before we call ourselves advaitins. This is advaita, this is not advaita - does not cut it.

In addition to the above factors, advaitins like me also do not accept veda apourusheyatva as taught by the tradition, and I beleive that there can be new revelations now and in future. Most traditional advaitins deny the authenticity of all upanishads except the principal sixteen, while many of us accept the muktika canon. Most the material written on this forum( like cakra, samAdhi etc) would be rejected by the classical advaitin, In that respect, this is a great forum that allows great variety in thought - where every idea is not opposed and rejected just because it is not there in the principal upanishads.

There are four states of 'enlightened consciousness'.( or supra awareness)

shAnta jAgrat - is also called restful wakefulness or peaceful wakefulness.
jAgrat-svapna - lucid dreaming or wakeful dreaming
jAgrat-shushupti - wakeful deepsleep
turya - Absolute non dualty.

The state of each of these have been furnished in the mANDUkya. shAnta jAgrat is the super awareness of gross nature. At its limit, it can confer on you complete knowledge of the entire physical universe called bhU loka, bhuvar loka and part of suvar loka. jAgrat-svapna is the super awareness of subtle nature, i.e the world of mind and subtle element, also known as manomaya kosha. This covers suvarloka, maharloka and janarloka. jagrat-shushupti is the super awareness of the causal( and super casual nature) , i.e vijnAnamaya kosha and Anandamaya kosha. This covers taparloka, satyaloka, and other lokas of Ishvara all up to param padaM of vishNu. turya is the indescribable Absolute. VishvarUpa darshana has been refererred to as:

manyase yadi tachchhakyaM mayA draShTumiti prabho .
yogeshvara tato me tva.n darshayAtmAnamavyayam.h (11.4)

Note the word 'avyayaM' in the request of Arjuna. It means Arjuna desires to see the complete form of Ishvara. This vision is a special one, not available to most Yogis on earth.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH (11.52)

The word 'sudurdarshamidaM' shows that the vision is extremely rare. And it also mentions that even devatAs rarely get to see this form of Ishvara.

na tu mA.n shakyase draShTumanenaiva svachakShuShA .
divya.n dadAmi te chakShuH pashya me yogamaishvaram.h (11.8)

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara. divya chakshuH is nothing but the third eye of Rudra- the higher AjJa cakra.
There is considerable dualty in the experience as anyone reading this adhyAya will find, but vishvarUpa cannot be described because it is the infinite form of Ishvara with all his infinitely manifested opulences. With all the above reasoning, we can safely conclude that vishvarUpa is the highest possible experience of mAyA. It is certainly dualistic because mAyA is characterised by dualty. Therefore, this experience is that of jAgrat-shushupti only.

Can you classify vishvarUpa as vishva or taijasa, which can hardly be classifed as the complete, most difficult to see, third eye vision? Also note this:

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h .
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdya.n
yanme tvadanyena na dR^iShTapUrvam.h (11.47)

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara, and cannot be anything short of the full glory of Ishvara. Yoga vAsishTa classies Arjuna as a jIvanmukta at the asaMsakti level. Bhagavata also mentions Arjuna to be a jnAni. What vishvarUpa darshana implies is that, Arjuna has infact realized 'almost' the Self at this point, amidst the dualty - temporarily. And withdrawn due to his vAsanas. It is not turya because there is knower-known distinction in that vision. So it is a dvaitAdvaita experience of the Self( not the highest possible which is possible only in identity).

mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

~RL

Namaste Rajalakshmi,

I have quoted your post in full because every point in it is good.

Answer to your questions are included in your post itself. When you say that there are many variants of Advaita itself, you are correct since there are many perceptions, which can be categorised into many groups.

But here is my point. Agni is one, but a person who knows Agni Dharana will say Agni is cool. I will say Agni is terrible. Some other may further distinguish Agni as cool under some circumstance and terrible under other conditions. And then infinite descriptions of Agni that is ONE will emerge. Many will fight over those descriptions.

Descriptions are inherently dualistic as they involve marriage of mind and speech. Before marriage, however, they have to be created as two.

I do not think that Prajnaghana as mentioned in Mandukya is vague at all. It is non-dual intelligence -- a pada of Self, the BEING who is the owner and revealer of this pure intelligence. Self knows itself through this intelligence but this pure intelligence will not know anything if the BEING goes absent. The being is INDHA (the fuel). Similarly, the jiva (apparently one among many) will not know oneself and others if Self with its prajnaghana goes missing.

But Prajnaghana may be percieved in many ways and these perceptions do no remain ghana any more, since perception involves parting of pure prajna by thoughts.

Thus I request you to follow just one variant of philosophy as per your Guru's dictate and get established in that. The Advaita not only includes all variants of Advaita but also VA and Dvaita, since the truest Advaita is "Not Two".

Mandukya is the greatest scientific paper written ever. And it will continue to be so, till Indha is there. You are young and I admire your wisdom. My request is to first eat/drink/chew/digest Mandukya and Gaudapada Karika. Or if you have a Guru, just follow what he teaches.

I emphasize that all categories of Prajna that you talk about are the perceptions of different jivas of ONE PADA of ONE SELF. Whatever the perception of a Jnani, the Prajna -- as Pada of the great Self remains Prajna only. I hope you comprehend this point. What is invariant principle, we color with our thoughts and then claim that only the 'concept of Prajna' is correct and miss the whole point about the 'invariant Prajna'. Similarly with the Self itself. Like a person having a title of DGM, on being promoted, says "I am not DGM, I am GM".
Regards.

Om Namah Shivaya

sarabhanga
22 January 2008, 03:40 AM
mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

Namaste Rajalakshmi,

advaita vedAnta depends on the mANDukyopaniSad and the kArikAs of gauDapAda. And the advaitavAda of shaÑkarAcArya does not disagree with the foundation laid by shrI gauDapAda. And ALL subsequent advaitavAda is a footnote to these authorities. There are many variations in the details of explanation, but the mANDUkya wisdom cannot be violated.

atanu
22 January 2008, 04:12 AM
Namaste Atanu-ji,

mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

~RL

Dear RL,

Not only from two perspectives of individual and cosmic, but from the individual perspective alone there will be unlimited perceptions of prajnaghana.

But these perceptions will not be ghana anymore and these perceptions will not change the prajnaghana -- which remains same ever as the tool of the Self who has the perceptions.

What I am telling is also not ghana. When you become one with AUM, then and then only, through AUM, you can pass through all stages in waking itself.


It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

What I say now is what my Guru says, so I will not enter into any discussion on this point. (Just go through it as a Guru's teaching and there is no need to agree or disagree). The teaching is: "There is no end to connotations. There will be as many connotations as many beings there are multiplied by as many moments they think. It is simply not possible to understand all connotations and it is not required. The only thing that is required is to know the one who has the connotations."

The being is beneath the thoughts. Simply put: Know thyself.

Om

atanu
22 January 2008, 10:50 AM
Namaste Atanu-ji,

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara. divya chakshuH is nothing but the third eye of Rudra- .

~RL

Namaste RL,

I feel that a discussion should concentrate on one subject at a time. However, in case, you bring up this subject in your future discussions, you may wish to consider these two points:

First, Lord said "Arjuna see these --- and see whatever else you wish to see in me"

Second, Arjuna was afraid of the vision.

Vision of third eye of Rudra is Advaita vision which kills lust and fear.

Om

Rajalakshmi
22 January 2008, 11:57 AM
Namaste RL,

I feel that a discussion should concentrate on one subject at a time. However, in case, you bring up this subject in your future discussions, you may wish to consider these two points:

First, Lord said "Arjuna see these --- and see whatever else you wish to see in me"

Second, Arjuna was afraid of the vision.

Vision of third eye of Rudra is Advaita vision which kills lust and fear.

Om

Arjuna getting afraid is actually reverance to the Lord - bhaya bhakti, god fearing. When such a vision is granted for the first time, the devotee is overwhelmed with awe, he looses his own identity momentarily before being pulled out.

vishvarUpa is called avyaya rUpa or the complete form.

Ramana Maharishi has clarified that there is virtually nothing beyond vishvarUpa darshana.


Quoted from Sri Ramana:


Viswarupa darshan (vision of the cosmic form) and


Viswatma darhsan (vision of the universal self) are the same.



Such darshan is not by eyesight or in any gross fashion. As
there is only Being, without a second, anything seen cannot
be real. That is the truth.


--Gems from bhagavAn

Ineffect, Arjuna became the seer momentarily and did not see any darshan externally.

See Bhagavata verse:

saubhary-utanka-shibi-devala-pippalAda-
sArasvatoddhava-parAshara-bhUrisenAH
ye.nye vibhIshaNa-hanUmad-upendradatta-
pArthArshTrisena-vidura-shrutadeva-varyAH ( 2.7.45)

includes pArthaH( arjuna) as a jnAni on the class of hanumAn.

~RL

atanu
22 January 2008, 10:49 PM
vishvarUpa is called avyaya rUpa or the complete form.
Ramana Maharishi has clarified that there is virtually nothing beyond vishvarUpa darshana.
Quoted from Sri Ramana:
Viswarupa darshan (vision of the cosmic form) and
Viswatma darhsan (vision of the universal self) are the same.


Namaste Rl,

You mean to say that a Christian who has a vision of the truth will see BrahmA, Vishnu, Rudra within? Or whether or not such a seer may see as per his/her orientation?

I do not deny that vision of Kala-Death form of Lord is without bhakti; yet it is not the ultimate. It is the Agni-Vaisvanara vision. Vision of Samaan that lights up everything including the Sun, is the final one.

Can you give the full text and full context of what Shri Ramana said? You are distorting Ramana and that is not acceptable. Ramana has pointed out that Shri Krishna said: "Arjuna see these --- and also see what you wish to see". Ramana emphasized that any vision is of the nature of experience and is controlled by predilection of the visionary. Yet the Seer having the vision is constant and Samaan.

True that visvarupa darshan is the ultimate knowledge when one knows "I am the seer and the seen".


When one sees any difference here one goes from death to death.
------------------------

We may agree to disagree here because this will be futile, until you comprehend the Samaan. Ultimately, the Seer is to be known and not the seen. Darshan of Agni-Vaisvanaro is one step. Yes you are speaking of darshan of Ishwara as Death and I am talking of Ishwara as one who bestows immoratlity.

Regards


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
22 January 2008, 11:23 PM
Vedas teach: Truth and only Truth.

The Nellore Professor asked about visvarupa darsana.

M.: Visvatma darsana is visvarupa darsana i.e., the universal Self of the cosmic Self is the cosmos. Sri Krishna started the discourse in Chapter II, saying, “I have no form”. In Chapter XI, He says, “See my form as the Universe”. Is it consistent? Again he says, “I transcend the three worlds”, but Arjuna sees the three worlds in Him. Sri Krishna says, “I cannot be seen by men, Gods, etc.”; yet Arjuna sees himself and the Gods in Him. No one could see and yet Arjuna was endowed with divine sight to see Him. Does it not look a maze of contradictions?

The answer is that the understanding is wrong. Sthula dristi on the physical plane is absurd. Jnana dristi (subtle understanding) is necessary. That is why Arjuna was given divya chakshuh (divine sight). Can such sight be gross? Will such interpretation lead you to a right understanding?

Sri Krishna says Kalosmi, ‘I am Time’. Does Time have shape? Again if the universe be His form should it not be one and unchanging? Why does He say to Arjuna, “See in me whatever you desire to see?” That means that His form is according to the desires of the seer. They speak of ‘divine sight’ and yet paint the scene, each according to his own view. There is the seer also in the seen. What is all this? Even a mesmerist can make you see strange scenes. You call this a trick, whereas the other you call divine. Why this difference? Anything seen cannot be real. That is the truth.


M.: People have read of Vivekananda having asked Sri Ramakrishna, “Have you seen God?” and imitate him now. They also ask, “Have you realised God?”

I ask what is realization? Realisation implies perfection. When you are limited, your perception also is limited. Your knowledge is thus imperfect. Of what value is that imperfect knowledge?
In Visvarupa Darsan, Arjuna is told to see whatever he desired and not what was presented before him. How can that darsan be real?
-------------------------------

I request that before chewing/eating/digesting Mandukya no attempt should be made to correlate and equate an Experience with the Experiencer.

Visvatma darsana is visvarupa darsana . The Atman that is in Visva is Atman, that must be known stripped of the Visva, which is Atman's fire and light. Then automatically one will know visvaatma, taijjassaatma, Prajnaatma.


Regards

Om

Om is the truth

Rajalakshmi
23 January 2008, 02:41 AM
Namaste Rl,

You mean to say that a Christian who has a vision of the truth will see BrahmA, Vishnu, Rudra within? Or whether or not such a seer may see as per his/her orientation?

I do not deny that vision of Kala-Death form of Lord is without bhakti; yet it is not the ultimate. It is the Agni-Vaisvanara vision. Vision of Samaan that lights up everything including the Sun, is the final one.

Can you give the full text and full context of what Shri Ramana said? You are distorting Ramana and that is not acceptable. Ramana has pointed out that Shri Krishna said: "Arjuna see these --- and also see what you wish to see". Ramana emphasized that any vision is of the nature of experience and is controlled by predilection of the visionary. Yet the Seer having the vision is constant and Samaan.

True that visvarupa darshan is the ultimate knowledge when one knows "I am the seer and the seen".


When one sees any difference here one goes from death to death.
------------------------

We may agree to disagree here because this will be futile, until you comprehend the Samaan. Ultimately, the Seer is to be known and not the seen. Darshan of Agni-Vaisvanaro is one step. Yes you are speaking of darshan of Ishwara as Death and I am talking of Ishwara as one who bestows immoratlity.

Regards


Om Namah Shivaya

vishvarUpa is not the ultimate. Note that I said there is 'virtually' nothing beyond it. vishvarUpa is the Anandamaya brahman. But beneath the Anandamaya Brahman is the very source - Ananda itself. Ananda, the seer is the ultimate. This is why I classified it in 'waking deepsleep' and not turya.

You must realize that vision of this Anandamaya brahman is the penultimate step to the final Atma darshana, otherwise it will not be said that it is very rare or that Arjuna was the first person( which is some kind of arthavAda to eulogize the difficulty in getting to this stage)

Ramana has said that vishvarUpa is vishvAtma because crossing over from vishvarUpa to turya is only a simple processs for someone who has progressed to that stage. If an advaitin with mere bookish knowledge knows what to expect as the final truth, such a truth is easily known to the Yogi who comprehends the vishvarUpa.

There is probably no guidance needed for the Yogi after getting the initial visions because Self itself is the greatest guide. There is always the inner voice of Ishvara that guides you on and on, until absorption is complete.

Meditation should be done to get the first vision of God - it is always external to oneself. No one would go from purely ignorant to realize Advaita overnight. Once this first vision is achieved, rest is easy because you have a guide who knows the reality.


~RL

atanu
23 January 2008, 06:00 AM
Namaste Rajalakshmi,

You have been alluding to Prajnaghana as a non-dual state, including Ishwara at the head with prajas; and confused the issue by drawing in the example of visvarupa darshana. This is my main point of disagreement. I have maintained that Prajnaghana is non-dual but in lower states Ishwara is known in duality. I have specifically said that multitude of bodies can exist in Taijjassa and Vaisvanro only.

But a illumined sadhaka will know the reality of these two states as all bodies as part of either Agni- Vaisvanaro or Taijjasso. Yet, the non-dual experience of Ishwara as pure intelligence is lacking. I insisted that Visvarupa darshana is of Agni-Vaisvanaro.

Now, let us not digress.Earlier you said:

Can you classify vishvarUpa as vishva or taijasa, which can hardly be classifed as the complete, most difficult to see, third eye vision?
-----
Ramana Maharishi has clarified that there is virtually nothing beyond vishvarUpa darshana.


We have seen what Ramana said. And now you say:



vishvarUpa is not the ultimate.
------
Ramana has said that vishvarUpa is vishvAtma because crossing over from vishvarUpa to turya is only a simple processs for someone who has progressed to that stage.
Where did Ramana say that? Or is it your interpretation? Ramana actually said: In Visvarupa Darsan, Arjuna is told to see whatever he desired and not what was presented before him. How can that darsan be real?


vishvarUpa is the Anandamaya brahman. --- You must realize that vision of this Anandamaya brahman is the penultimate step to the final Atma darshana,
Can you cite a reference that says that visvarupa is Anandamaya Brahman and visvarupa darshana is Anandamaya brahman? I am perplexed about these correlations. A darshana, which evokes fear, can hardly be called darshana of Anadamaya Brahman.


Meditation should be done to get the first vision of God - it is always external to oneself. No one would go from purely ignorant to realize Advaita overnight. Once this first vision is achieved, rest is easy because you have a guide who knows the reality.
Very good. Thank you for the advice.

I am glad that you accept that Visvarupa darshana is visvaAtman darshana, which is Agni-Vaisvanaro darshana. Agni Vaisvanaro is Pratham. Surya-Agni is the birth, death, and existence of all embodied beings.

Regards,

Om

Rajalakshmi
23 January 2008, 07:07 AM
Namaste Atanu,

Please note the it is mentioned that even devatAs rarely get this vishvarUpa darshana. I am citing again:

manyase yadi tachchhakyaM mayA draShTumiti prabho .
yogeshvara tato me tva.n darshayAtmAnamavyayam.h (11.4)

Note the word 'avyayaM' in the request of Arjuna. It means Arjuna desires to see the complete form of Ishvara. This vision is a special one, not available to most Yogis on earth.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH (11.52)

The word 'sudurdarshamidaM' shows that the vision is extremely rare. And it also mentions that even devatAs( devA api) rarely get to see this form of Ishvara. You must be aware that devatAs are known as jnAnins and have much more knowledge about God than humans ( not necessarily the highest though)

na tu mA.n shakyase draShTumanenaiva svachakShuShA .
divya.n dadAmi te chakShuH pashya me yogamaishvaram.h (11.8)

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara.

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h .
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdya.n
yanme tvadanyena na dR^iShTapUrvam.h (11.47)

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara.( which should be taken in the sense that it is very rare, and even devatas cannot get this vision easily)

Unless you have some vested interests, you cannot dismiss this vision as 'not nearly the highest realization'. Atma darshana will automatically follow from the vishvarUpa darshana for obvious reasons that you have been graced fully by the Lord. How often do you think Lord goes in rounds offering his cosmic vision to people? It is an extremely rare vision as mentioned in the Gita itself.

You have failed to explain why this is such a rare vision especially when Arjuna has requested the Lord to show his avyaya rUpa. ( full form).

You are still thinking of the dualty within the rUpaM as an indicator of lesser realization. But if no dualty were present, then how do you think Advaitin realized gurus ever recognize their disciples or teach them? So, there is always dualty within any non dual realization until videha mukti. Dualty will be known for what it truly is for a self realized sage - something that has lesser reality than Atma.

Didn't Sri Krishna have the highest realization? Then how was he teaching Arjuna if he saw only non dualty? So even in such vishvarUpa, there will be dualty within non dualty - vishvarUpa may span many states of consciousness and may be the reason it is mentioned to be very difficult to obtain - only in the deepest samAdhi.( equivalent of getting the jnAna chaxus)

~RL

atanu
23 January 2008, 07:40 AM
It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara.( which should be taken in the sense that it is very rare, and even devatas cannot get this vision easily)

Unless you have some vested interests, you cannot dismiss this vision as 'not nearly the highest realization'.


Namaste RL,

As usual. I had asked for a citation to show that Visvarupa is Anandamaya Brahman and except that citation all other things are there including an accusation. Please be a little thoughtful. What vested interest I can have? Is it not uncalled for, at least from you?

Actually it is you who mis-represented Ramana, not me.

I had answered your question as to why no one prior to Arjuna had seen the particular Visvarupa and why it has to be rare, but since you are stuck with your view you did not see it. My Agni-Vaisvanaro Darshana will not be same as yours and yours will not be same as Sarabhanga's. It is not a constant view and so it cannot be real (basic premise of Advaita).

An American will have a different view of Agni-Vaisvanaro and a Chinese different. So, no one had seen earlier exactly what Arjuna saw.

The darshana you are speaking about is not of the ultimate truth since it was fraught with fear. And since Krishna said: "See what you wish to see".

Visvarupa is definitely a illumined view of Visva Atman (Agni-Vaisvanaro) and that is certainly a truth of a Pada.


And I am surprised now when you say "Unless you have some vested interests, you cannot dismiss this vision as 'not nearly the highest realization'. Whereas, just in previous post you said: " ---vishvarUpa is not the ultimate."


Namaste Atanu,
You have failed to explain why this is such a rare vision especially when Arjuna has requested the Lord to show his avyaya rUpa. ( full form).
~RL

Thank you again for pointing out my failures. I hope you can see yours and accept them.

How can anyone show you your own form, which is the only true form? No one can show you your fearless rupa from outside as differences will persist. Seer is within and one has to know the Seer (Self) by the Self and not by something external to oneself. Visvarupa darshana is illumined view of Agni-Vaisvanaro. It is the truth of One Pada only.

Self is known by the Self. Where one sees even a little difference one goes from death to death.

Regards. This should be my last post on this subject.

Om

Rajalakshmi
23 January 2008, 09:02 AM
Namaste,

Let us go through this once again. Sorry if I have hurt your feelings. Not intentional. I beleive that vishvarUpa is a misunderstood topic. You can find people saying all sorts of things about it - some say it was just another mystic experience; some say it is the fullest of all experiences; some say that it a vision of the world; some say it is that of the vishvAtma (Atma of the world);

This is a rather complex and long post and I request you go through carefully.

Let us first find out What did arjuNa really see in the battlefield of kurukshetra, which has become famous as vishvarUpa darshana- something that seems to be unqiue in all of our scriptures? Did he see God as a dinosaur giant? Or did he see something else? The contents of this post were developed over a number of discussions with many ppl several years ago.

There were at least three occassions when Sri kR^ishhNa showed vishvarUpa; once, as a child, He was eating soil, when His mother wanted to him to open His mouth so she could take the soil out; for a second time, when He went to mediate for the pANDavas asking for five villages in the kaurava court, as duryodhana wanted to capture Him and, and for the third time to arjuna in the battlefield of kurukshetra. These visions were all different, as He told arjuna (SBG 11.47). The vishvarUpa that He showed arjuNa is the most famous one.

In chapter 13, verse 13, as Sri kR^ishhNa describes:

sarvataH pANipAdaM tat.h sarvato.akshishiromukhaM
sarvataH shrutimalloke sarvamAvR^itya tishhThati. BG 13.13

I would like to draw your attention especially to one word, sarvataH. sarvataH means 'in every'.

sarvataH pANipAdaM sarvataH akshishiromukhaM sarvataH shrutimat.h tat.h
loke sarvaM AvR^itya tishhThati.

God who is in all arms and feet, all eyes, heads and mouths, all hearing ears, is present in all the worlds covering the entire creation.

Rather than, God who has everywhere, His arms and feet, eyes and heads and mouths and hearing ears, is situated in all worlds covering all of creation. To me, it seems that this verse claims our hands and our feet and other appendages to be God's form.

This is the first misunderstanding of the vishvarUpa that people make - vishvarUpa actually wants to tell you that the universe is just a small attachment or reflection of God, and not the universe by itself.

sarvendriyaguNAbhAsaM sarvendriya vivarjitaM.
asaktaM sarvabhR^ichchaiva nirguNaM guNabhoktR^i BG 13.14

The verse says:

He who is the subtle expression (AbhAsa) of the guNas of all indriyas, bereft of all indriyas, unattached, also is alone the filler of all requirements, guNa-less, also the enjoyer of guNas.

What did then arjuNa mean by sahasrabAho vishvamurte (BG 11.46) or
thousand armed world form ?

avibhaktaJNcha bhUteshhu vibhaktamiva cha sthitaM. (SBG 13.16)

(He) although undivided, is situated as if divided. That means, His 'world form' features are 'as if' ones.

Sri kR^ishhNa Himself describes the vishvarUpa simply as :

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM, rUpaM paraM darshitaM AtmayogAt.h
tejomayaM vishvaM anantaM AdyaM yanme tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvaM. (BG 11.47).


I, being pleased, have shown you this luminous (tejomaya), infinite (ananta), original (Adi), wonderful World form (paraM vishvarUpaM) by my Atmayoga. arjuNa, such has not been seen by anybody before.

Given the vivid visuals that arjuna described in this chapter, this may seem as an understatement. Let us investigate the new tool (divya-chakshu) that He gave arjuNa in order for him to see the world form. What would a person be expected to see if he had this gift?

SBG verses 15.10-11 describe this:

utkrAmantaM sthitaM vApi bhuJNjAnaM vA guNAnvitaM.
vimuDA nAnupashyanti pashyanti GYAnachakshushhaH. (BG 15.10)

yatanto yoginaschainaM pashyantyAtmananyavasthitaM.
yatanto.apyakR^itAtmAno nainaM pashyantyachetasaH. (BG 15.11)

In essence, these two verses say that such a person (or yogi) endowed with GYAna-chakshu can see the jivAtman, both when It is seated in the body or when It is leaving the body. Of course, the description here is for
GYAnachakshu not divya-chakshu. But I have not found any reason to
think that they are different; it seems to me that GYAnachakshu and
divya-chakshu are the same thing. We will see the reason at the end.

If they are, it explains why arjuna described the headgears, the maces,
the wheels in verse BG 11.17. My hypothesis is, those things belonged to
the soldiers around him, in whom, because of divya-dR^ishhTi, arjuna saw
the undivided yet 'as if' divided Atman, and their war gears also appeared
as divya or all luminous . After all, the soldiers too are His Self-projections (ahaM sarvasya prabhavo BG 10.8).

Sri kR^ishhNa says that He is the One Who is present in every heart
(sarvasya chAhaM hR^idi sannivishhto SBG 15.15). I would like to think
that this is the world vision Arjuna saw as vishvarUpa; namely, he saw the One undivided in all that appears to be divided, that was as luminious as thousand suns, rather than the monstrous being. In shrI kR^ishhNa¹s own words ( SBG 11.47), it is His original, limitless, (yet) world-form. The
world is not limitless, but God is, what then, is the justification of
calling it 'world form'? It would be a contradiction of terms, unless, He
was showing his transcendent form over the universe, i.e the Atma.

arjuNa described this transcendent form in a most unusual way (SBG
11.46). When he was scared of seeing the kAla manifestation, he wanted to see Him as he had seen Him (four-armed) before. Arjuna describes (SBG 11.38) the vishvarUpa as original deva (Adideva) and the purANa purUshha( eternal being which cannot be any perishable vision), ultimate container of the world (tvam purAna purUshha, asya vishvasya paraM nidhAnaM), also as the ultimate goal which can only be Atma.
(parama dhAma), by whom the world has been elaborated (tvayA vishvaM
tataM). The next verse (SBG 11.39) describes his vision more succintly,
arjuna says, you are vAyu, yama, agni, varuna, shashAnka, prajApati
(brahmA), and the greatgrandfather (vishhNu). These descriptions would be inconsistent with God being a separate being( from oneself), and suggest that arjuNa saw Him in all these different devas. The vision of everything as vAsudeva has been described as an advanced vision, available to mahAtmAs (BG 7.19), that might be the vision arjuna had by Divine grace (BG 11.39).The next verse (SBG 11.40) is the most unique, in which, arjuna identifies His frontside, backside and all sides and says that He is present in all directions, therefore he describes Him as sarvaH
(svarUpa). He would not be sarvaH without a reference to the
multiplicity. Therefore, arjuna must have bowed to the various devas (SBG
11.39) in whom he saw Him, and bowed to them (SBG 11.40). This can be
nothing else than the sarvagata AtmA.

Compare this with the chAndogya verse, which talks about the mukta:

athaata aatmaadesha evaatmaivaadhastaadaatmoparishhTaadaatmaa
pashchaadaatmaa purastaadaatmaa dakshiNata aatmottarata
aatmaiveda\m+ sarvamiti sa vaa eshha evaM pashyannevaM manvaana evaM
vijaanannaatmaratiraatmakriiDa aatmamithuna aatmaanandaH sa
svaraaDbhavati tasya sarveshhu lokeshhu kaamachaaro bhavati
atha ye.anyathaato viduranyaraajaanaste kshayyalokaa bhavanti
teshhaa\m+ sarveshhu lokeshhvakaamachaaro bhavati || C. U 7.25.2||


This is narrated by R^ishhi Atreya to R^ishhi agnivesha( in chakara saMhita) as he describes the passage of jivAtman.

bhutaischaturbhiH sahitaH sa sukshmairmanojabo dehamupaiti dehAt.h
karmAtmakatvAnnatu tasya dR^ishyaM divyaM vinA darshanamasti rUpaM.

sa sarvagaH sarvasharIrabhR^ichcha sa vishvakarmA sa cha vishvarUpaH
sa chetanAdhAturatIndriyascha sa nityayuk.h sAnushayaH sa eva.

jivAtman, because of picking up karma (karmAtmakatva), goes from one body to another with the four sukshmabhutas by the speed of mind. That sight is not seeable with any other sight than divyadR^ishhTi.

That Atman is sarvagata, the provider of all bodies, He is vishvakarmA,
vishvarUpa, chetanA-dhAtu, atIndriya. He is always connected with body,
therefore is following (karma).

In these verses, divya-dR^ishhTi and GYAna-dR^ishhTi are equated and also, the vishvarUpa is ascribed to the jivAtman. Thus it appears that inspite of the grand visual description given in the vishvarUpa( for the sake of describing something), it only appears to be Arjuna's vision of Atma, along with the world which is its reflection. Read 11-31 through 11-37 to get the more complete picture. There seems to be a lot of variety because Arjuna wades through several layers of higher awareness and we can only guess what was his highest experience.

To summarize :

avibhakta.n cha bhUteShu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam.h .
bhUtabhartR^i cha tajGYeyaM grasiShNu prabhaviShNu cha

This vision of the Atma which is undivided yet appears divided seems to be what vishvarUpa us.

Note that Yoga-vAshishTa has devoted a separate chapter for Arjuna and classified him as a jIvanmukta( I can give the exact quote if you need) - this cannot be a simple boast. Bhagavata also calls Arjuna a jnAni.



~RL

atanu
23 January 2008, 09:26 AM
Namaste,

Let us go through this once again. Sorry if I have hurt your feelings. Not intentional. I beleive that vishvarUpa is a misunderstood topic. -
~RL

Namaste RL,

I have no interest, my friend. Any amount of citation will not be able to convince me that a darshana which evokes fear and which view is dependent on the wishes of a person is the final truth. And it is not my wish to convert you.

I am a bit surprised that even after saying "visvarupa is not the ultimate --", you are still intent upon hair splitting. Since that is my only point.

I say that Prajna Iswara is non-dual ( but with sleep as Avidya). Duality begins from Taijjassa and becomes solidified in Visvam. Bhagawan Krishna is great that He showed the common thread of life and death in Viswam. Yet, the view of Death was scary, which cannot be the ultimate view towards liberation, which is immortality.

I have said all that I had to. Regards and Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

Rajalakshmi
23 January 2008, 10:51 AM
I have no interest, my friend. Any amount of citation will not be able to convince me that a darshana which evokes fear and which view is dependent on the wishes of a person is the final truth. And it is not my wish to convert you.

I am a bit surprised that even after saying "visvarupa is not the ultimate --", you are still intent upon hair splitting. Since that is my only point.

I say that Prajna Iswara is non-dual ( but with sleep as Avidya). Duality begins from Taijjassa and becomes solidified in Visvam. Bhagawan Krishna is great that He showed the common thread of life and death in Viswam. Yet, the view of Death was scary, which cannot be the ultimate view towards liberation, which is immortality.

I have said all that I had to. Regards and Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

You did not realize that Arjuna's consciousness must have spanned all of vishva, taijasa, prAjna ( and perhaps turIya too) , and it was only in the waking state that he expressed fear - do you speak in the turIya state? Krishna himself has frequently run away from jarAsandha in the waking state? How many times Lord Rama has cried in the waking state? How many times Sita Devi has been terrified at Ravana's appearance? parashurAma has been defeated by Bhisma in the waking state. And you use the waking state 'fear' to conclude that it was not a valid experience? Does anyone ever have fear in a God vision? Then what use is that? The fear he expresses is when the vision is gradually terminated - bringing him into ground realities of the waking state. Some people imagine that Krishna simply became a big person in the battle field and showed that to Arjuna - this is very incorrect. Arjuna must be completelely absorbed for the time being to be able to experience the 6-29, 6-30 kind of experience. He is just giving comments from the waking state, as if somebody can describe the higher states from the waking state!

Arjuna is possibly a jIvanmukta by that experience( actually certified by yogavAsishTa and bhAgavata so it is not a guess from my side), and anything that follows may only be a leela. Why I am not willing to accept with you is because it has been described to be anantaM in 11.47, which is true only of the Atma. The world vision by any stretch of imagination cannot be anantaM. It is the turIya darshana which has been described as anantaM. Words like tejomaya and various divine forms used in 11.47 are clearly that of prAjna. Both vishva and taijasa are percieved by Arjuna too as effects of the sarvagata Atma.

jIvanmukta's vyavahAra drishyA has been well described in the Gita too:

sarvabhUtasthamAtmAnaM sarvabhUtAni chAtmani .
IkShate yogayuktAtmA sarvatra samadarshanaH .. 6\-29..
yo mAM pashyati sarvatra sarva.n cha mayi pashyati .
tasyAhaM na praNashyAmi sa cha me na praNashyati .. 6\-30..


A true yogi observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self−realized person sees Me, the same Supreme Lord, everywhere.


For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.

Dont you think Arjuna had these during his experiences?

I can establish with even more strong pramANas that Arjuna( you must be knowing that Arjuna is sAxAt indrAvatAra and not an ordinary human being right?) is a full blown jnAni - since you are already convinced in your conclusions, I am stopping here.


If you are convinced that Arjuna was still an ignorant lot, and gained virtually nothing after all that except momentary happiness, let us stop this topic. Arjuna was a born aparoxin, who suffered from aparoxa tirodAna frequently due to prArabdha karma - this can be easily established.

~RL

atanu
23 January 2008, 11:46 AM
Namaste RL,

Just a few points that remained untouched.


Why I am not willing to accept with you is because it has been described to be anantaM in 11.47,---

I am not asking you to accept anything. But to pause and contemplate. Of course Agni-Vaisvanaro is Anantam – else why would Mandukya explain it? And Life-Death is Satya and eternal. It needs no shruti to know that.I have already said that the Padas are invariant. Yet one Pada is not the Self. The anantam nature of states derive directly from Self, which is Anadimat.


If you are convinced that Arjuna was still an ignorant lot, and gained virtually nothing after all that except momentary happiness, let us stop this topic. Arjuna was a born aparoxin, who suffered from aparoxa tirodAna frequently due to prArabdha karma - this can be easily established.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I have not said Arjuna did not gain anything.


You did not realize that Arjuna's consciousness must have spanned all of vishva, taijasa, prAjna ( and perhaps turIya too) ,---

You know what you are saying? You are very deluded. Does your consciousness not span all states but are you a Jnani?

Om

atanu
23 January 2008, 12:07 PM
Namaste RL and readers,

(I am talking of Advaita and no other vada).

My only point in this long winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate Brahman Darshana (from Advaita view). This point was agreed upon gingerly but you brought in fantastic new claims, which kept on increasing the futile discussion.

You claimed Agni-Vaisvanaro darshan is Anadamaya Brahman Darshan (no proof). You claimed falsely that Ramana has said that there is almost nothing beyond Visvarupa darshan. The most fantastic claim is: “Jagrat Shushupti is Visvarupa darshana.”

Do you contemplate ever? Do you know yourself how blissful, stress free, infinite, world free, ego less state that Shushupti is? Add to that the knowledge of Mandukya – that it is dense with bliss. Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake. You are infinite and bliss and pure light of intelligence.


Now read what Arjuna says of the Visvarupa:

On seeing Thee (the Cosmic Form) touching the sky, shining in many colours, with mouths wide open, with large, fiery eyes, I am terrified at heart and find neither courage nor peace, O Vishnu!



If you insist that this is Jagrat Shushupti then please carry on with your self-willed concept.


Best Wishes, Om

Rajalakshmi
23 January 2008, 12:48 PM
Namaste RL and readers,

My only point in this long and winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate (from Advaita view) and neither it is darshan of Ishwara – who is Advaita and non-different from Brahman. This point was agreed upon gingerly but you brought in fantastic new claims, which kept on increasing the futile discussion.

You claimed Agni-Vaisvanaro darshan is Anadamaya Brahman Darshan (no proof). You claimed falsely that Ramana has said that there is almost nothing beyond Visvarupa darshan. The most fantastic claim is: “Jagrat Shushupti is Visvarupa darshana.”


So you conclude that Arjuna had mere prakR^iti darshana after all? What is so meritorious about it? And why it so hard for even devatAs to get this vision? You seem to think that the jnAni just disappears into a void with enlightenment - in such a case not a single testimony for advaita will be there.



Do you contemplate ever? Do you know yourself how blissful, stress free, infinite, world free, ego less state that Shushupti is? Add to that the knowledge of Mandukya – that it is dense with bliss. Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake.


jAgrat shushupti is world free? In that case Ishvara himself may not know about the world at all. jAgrat shushupti is a great samAdhi where the Yogi is all knowing. Yes, it is blissful, and he is full of wisdom.




Now read what Arjuna says of the Visvarupa:
On seeing Thee (the Cosmic Form) touching the sky, shining in many colours, with mouths wide open, with large, fiery eyes, I am terrified at heart and find neither courage nor peace, O Vishnu!


If you insist that this is Jagrat Shushupti then please carry on with your self-willed concept.


Best Wishes, Om

You have clearly misunderstood vishvarUpa. Lord has blessed Arjuna so much, and how can it cause fear? It must be understood from the context.

Have you read this?


If hundreds of thousands of suns were to rise at once into the sky, their radiance might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.


You are without origin, middle or end. Your glory is unlimited. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are Your eyes. I see You with blazing fire coming forth from Your mouth, burning this entire universe by Your own radiance.


All these are symbolic descriptions of the indescribable, just like Mundaka says rukmavarNaM for the Lord.


O great one, greater even than Brahma, You are the original creator. Why then should they not offer their respectful obeisances unto You? O limitless one, God of gods, refuge of the universe! You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation.


How does Arjuna know about Lord being the cause of all causes by just knowing an insignicant portion of it?


O best of the Kuru warriors, no one before you has ever seen this universal form of Mine, for neither by studying the Vedas, nor by performing sacrifices, nor by charity, nor by pious activities, nor by severe penances can I be seen in this form in the material world.


Yet you think that it is just another experience! You cannot hope to realize it through the most difficult samAdhis - is what the Lord is saying.


The Lord said: My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the gods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is so dear.


If a form induces fear as you have described, why would gods be ever seeking an opportunity to see that form? So your objections are totally invalid. The first time experience stunned Arjuna that he was stupefied at what he saw. He was not expecting that much - those used only to the finite are thrown out of gear when they encounter the infinite the first time.


The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me as I am.


My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My understanding.


Note that bhagavAn has dismissed all notions that such an experience Arjuna had, cannot be achieved by any ordinary means. Specially note that he said Arjuna has seen him 'Me as I am'. (i.e the true nature)

Arjuna is a special jIva and an incarnation of Indra. Anyone who reads the kaushitaki brAhmaNa upanishad will know that Indra is a jnAni. Read the pratardana adhikaraNa of Shankara's BSB to know more about it. Arjuna is no less than the uttama purusha even when he incarnated on earth. Why will he experience anything less than the highest truth? There are bouts of BMI identifications for jnAnins that is why Arjuna is not always in the awakened state. You must be knowing that Arjuna is the rishi nara and Krishna is nArAyaNa, both are foremost of rishis as explained in the mahAbhAratha. Arjuna is a rishi, you know that right? He is a jnAni even before he incarnates as Arjuna, and just participates in bhagavAn's leela for the destruction of the wicked.

So with the evidence that

1. Arjuna is Indra himself.
2. Arjuna is one of the foremost of rishis, nara.
3. Arjuna is a jIvanmukta of the asaMsakti stage as mentioned in the Yoga vAsishTa. ( I will give you the exact quote)
4. bhAgavata has classifed Arjuna as a jnAni.

it is hopeless to conclude that Arjuna was overcome with fear and all that. Arjuna is a realized soul even before the darshana and even before he was born as Arjuna, and anyone who knows that will realize the great heights of Arjuna's vishvarUpa darshana. It is also well known that Arjuna had realized Lord Shiva during vanaparva and even obtained pAshupata astra from him. We even have purANas telling us that vishNu was afraid of Shiva's form or that Shiva was afraid to see Vishnu etc - they mean nothing. Going by your explanations, if Lord offers his darshan we must say no because we will experience fear. And if a bhakta wants to see the true form of the Lord (asked by Arjuna) he instead reveals a half truth that induces fear!

With all this evidence, if you conclude that Arjuna did not get very close to the truth ( or realized the truth itself) it is only your predilections. Let us wind up this topic and let us agree to disagree.

~RL

sarabhanga
23 January 2008, 06:23 PM
Namaste,

Quite simply,


nara = ekapadam = arUpa
nArAyaNa = sahasrapAda = vishvarUpa

The vishvarUpa of nArAyaNa is expressed in every degree of consciousness, and the initial meeting may seem frightful, but that is only mAyA, and (once the realization is comfortably seated) all fear is quickly dissolved.


nara = sahasrAram = turya = hara
naranArAyaNau = AjñA = prAjña = harihare
nArAyaNa = hRdayam = taijasa = hari
nAra = maNipUram = vaishvAnara = hAra

devotee
23 January 2008, 07:23 PM
My only point in this long winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate Brahman Darshana (from Advaita view). ................ Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake. You are infinite and bliss and pure light of intelligence.


Namaste Atanu & RL,

I fully agree that Visva Atman Darshan is not Brahman Darshana & I have no doubts on it. In fact, no Darshan can be Brahman Darshana. Darshana of Brahman is an impossibility. All darshans are creations within mind, within duality, they are just illusions.

I think this discussion has got stuck in the jungle of words .... under quotations / counter-quotations of who said what & what is written where. This approach lands us always into such types of situations. Words don't convey exactly what is really intended by the speaker ..... the listener doesn't exactly grasp what is expressed in words. As the words keep on changing their meanings with time, even use of etimology (going to the roots of the words) doesn't help understand the things in right perspective unless you have access to semantics of the words at the particular time when the word was used.

IMHO, The right approach is :

i) Choose the undeniable Truth
ii) Try to find the agreement of all sources with the Undeniable Truth. If something is not in agreement, then must be a contamination due to problem in understanding of the statements.

----------------------------

Are we not of one opinion that :

a) SELF is just One ?
b)That Mind turned inward is SELF, turned outwards, it becomes "ego" & all the world ?

If these two statements are taken as the Undeniable Truth, the understanding becomes very clear & easy. Lets ask these questions & also try to answer :

Is Visva Atman Darshan Brahman Darshana ?

How can it be ? For any Darshan, mind must be present, duality must be there .... there must be a seer different from the seen. In other words, Brahman darshan tries to propose that the Brahman is different from the seer. ..... And thus it violates the Undeniable Truth of "Non-duality" & hence is impossible.

IMO, once we understand those two statements without doubt, there won't be any doubt over questions on Non-duality.

Regards

Znanna
23 January 2008, 07:54 PM
Namaste,

I can almost follow this debate - I love it when y'all talk turkey, so to speak.

Thanks!




ZN

atanu
23 January 2008, 10:57 PM
Namaste,

I can almost follow this debate - I love it when y'all talk turkey, so to speak.

Thanks!


Namaste ZN,

Yeh. There is no debate, therefore your failure.

For sake of record and in reverence to what Devotee, Sarabhanga, and RL have said I will jot down a few points.

I have not said anywhere that Arjuna had mere prakR^iti darshana. Though it is true. It is not possible to have darshana of Self as another since, the Self itself is the Seer/Cogniser. How can the knower know the knower, as Brihadaraynaka queries? Yet, darshana is of the self alone since it is "Not Two" -- Prakriti is also of the self.

Brahma is ONE -- the Seer as well as the Seen. But Brahma Sakshatkara may be infinite. When I see a cat, I see its life force and intelligence, I see manifestation of Satya and Satya of Satya. The Vayu that is Sutra, which connects all jivas is nothing but Brahman. The space in which this Vayu resides is Brahman. The Ether (so called void) in which space exists is Brahman. And the intelligence in the Samaan ether is Brahman. It is the indescribable Self.

From Dvaita and VA views, the Visvarupa Darshan is the ultimate Darshana and it is correct as far as Dvaita and VA go. So, RL is correct.

Yet I (and most Advaitins) think otherwise. avyayam is imperishable and is not synonymous to complete. Neither does Yoga Vasista say anywhere that Brahman is of form. And Yoga Vasista, in the Chapter on Arjuna, does not describe Visvarupam (as far as I remember). On the contrary, it shows Krishna teaching that Brahman has no form.

As the name itself suggests, Visvarupa Darshana is Visva Atman Darshana and till one can realise that Atman is ONE, it is not the ultimate sakshatkara.

Shruti says: There is no difference here. Self-Brahman is called as the indescribable thing abiding in the Samaan. One who sees any diffference here goes from death to death. But Arjuna saw Death Himself. (Shri Krishna said: Fear Not. And this 'Fear Not' is the truth. 'Fear Not', is the Jnana Upadesha that there is 'Not two', that Arjuna should fear).

Prajna-Iswara is dense bliss and not dual. It is the door to duality of two planes of Taijjassa and Vaisvanaro. So, a view which involves multiplicities and does not evoke bliss cannot be true Iswara Darshana.

God says "I am Kalosmi". With our solid brick like views we say kala is Sun-Agni. But does Kala have a form? Yes it has form called limited form of Prajapati. Being limited it is perishable. Yet, there is Prajapati undefined.

Arjuna was asked "--See also that which you desire to see." Brahman is not dependent on wish of an individual. Though all wishes are granted, since consciousness makes the wish and grants them.
---------------------------------

These are not for entering into a fresh argument but a summary of MY views, which may be taken or discarded. And I feel that these may be the view of Advaita knowers as well.

I have never said that Visvarupa Darshana is not Brahman Darshana but I only say that it is Darshana of Visva Atman (Agni-Vaisvanaro) pada of Brahman.

Pranam to all

Om

atanu
23 January 2008, 11:08 PM
Namaste Atanu & RL,
---
IMHO, The right approach is :

i) Choose the undeniable Truth
ii) Try to find the agreement of all sources with the Undeniable Truth. If something is not in agreement, then must be a contamination due to problem in understanding of the statements.

----------------------------

Are we not of one opinion that :

a) SELF is just One ?
b)That Mind turned inward is SELF, turned outwards, it becomes "ego" & all the world ?

-Regards

Namaste Devotee,

The crux of this whole thread.

Regards,

Om

Rajalakshmi
24 January 2008, 04:01 AM
Some of the problems to me seem to stem from the fact VishvarUpa is not considered as Atma darshana because the word darshana is used. But the word darshana by itself does not mean, anything external to oneself was seen by Arjuna at that time.

Can anyone talk and give commentary on his experiences in the higher planes like Arjuna did? Is vishvarUpa darshana a spatial vision? If vishvarUpa were a kind of external vision as people think, then Arjuna must have seen himself inside the vishvarUpa, and Krishna must be showing a vishvarUpa inside that, and Arjuna inside that, and it becomes an infinitely nested vishvarUpa darshana. This is not the way to look at vishvarUpa darshana at all.

That is the significance of the divya chaxus given to Arjuna, which completely does away with indirya/manas perception, and gives crystal clear picture of reality. Arjuna sees the virAt purusha which shows the fearful form of the gross elements of mAyA - he gets afraid, so to speak. Time is associated with death and a such a vision is always extraoinary and fearsome for someone experiencing it. Then Arjuna sees hiraNyagraba form, i.e the subtle form of Atma, in which various spiritual visions are seen.( i.e those not belonging to this visible universe).
Arjuna sees the one undivided Atma apparently divided in these two forms of Atma - in this is dualty, where emotions are expressed by Arjuna. The person standing before him is Ishvara himself. What is the reason for him not revealing his prAjna rUpa to Arjuna when Arjuna had asked him to reveal himself completely, which is pure consciousness. This was also certainly revealed though it is beyond description. Arjuna cannot describe it even if he wants to - he just says it is anantaM.

How is it known that prAjna Atma was also revealed?

The word vishva means whole, full, perfect etc- it is not universal form as often wrongly translated. vishvarUpa is so called because it is the whole form of God - i.e exhausts the full nature of God.

He, the Lord, is called Vishva, for being of complete nature (pUrNata) - padma purANa.

vishvarUpaM prathamato brahmA.apashyachchaturmukhaH |
tachchhatAMshena rudrastu tachchhatAMshena vAsavaH |
yathendreNa purA dR^ishhTumapashyat.h so.arjuno.api san.h |
tadanye kramayogena tachchhatAMshAdidarshanaH ||

The vishva-rUpa was first seen by the Chaturmukha-Brahma; a hundredth of that by Rudra, and a hundredth of that by the deities; as had been seen by Indra previously, so too was seen by Arjuna; other than he, according to worth, was seen a hundredth, and so forth," says the Brahmanda purANa.

So there are grades in the visvarUpa. It was not even the first time Arjuna is getting this experience, as indicated in the brahmANDa. Some people get to see only the vishva form, some the taijasa and some get the pure consciousness. The form seen by Chaturmukha-Brahma cannot be dismissed as devoid of the highest knowledge. If our creator Chaturmukha-Brahma cannot experience his oneness with the Self, what chance do others have?

vishvarUpa also includes the vaishvAnara.
sa eshha vaishvAnaro vishvarUpaH prANA.agnirudayate | (prashna up 1.7)

tvamakSharaM paramaM veditavya.n tvamasya vishvasya paraM nidhAnam.h .
tvamavyayaH shAshvatadharmagoptA sanAtanastvaM puruSho mato me 11.18

References to the vishvarUpa as axaraM, paramaM, paraM nidhAnaM, avyayaM etc rule out the visvarUpa being merely gross or subtle forms of Atma because they are neither axaraM( imperishable) nor paraM ( paraM is always sarveshvara) nor paraM nidhAnam.h ( the highest goal). Is virAt rUpa paraM nidhAnaM? Certainly not.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH 11.52

What is so special about such a vision, which even devatas cannot see? There is something more to this vision than it suggests. Devatas are always knowledgeable about virAt and hiraNyagarbha due to their higher states of conciosuness, and if what Krishna revealed to Arjuna was hard even for these devatas = it certainly means something much higher.

While I wont say that Arjuna had realized the Self with such a vision, he must have gotten very close atleast - atleast sarveshvara, the pure consciousness. The fact is also known because Arjuna is Indra himself, Arjuna is rishi nara. Arjuna is a jIvanmukta as per Yoga vAsishTa. Arjuna is a jnAni as per bhAgavata - we have to ignore all these evidences to conclude that vishvarUpa was merely a realization of dualty.


~RL

Rajalakshmi
24 January 2008, 04:54 AM
Is vishvarUpa darshana a spatial vision? If vishvarUpa were a kind of external vision as people think, then Arjuna must have seen himself inside the vishvarUpa, and Krishna must be showing a vishvarUpa inside that, and Arjuna inside that, and it becomes an infinitely nested vishvarUpa darshana. This is not the way to look at vishvarUpa darshana at all.


This means that vishvarUpa cannot be seen unless one is at the center of being, i.e the seer. If anyone will see vishvarUpa external to the Self, he will see infinite vishvarUpas each one nested inside the other. vishvarUpa is clearly beyond space and mind - going by this paradox.

devotee
24 January 2008, 06:08 AM
Namaste RL,

I hope you have not missed that the account of Visvarupa-Darshan is given in full detail in Gita, which is all visual & undoubtably there is a seer & the seen. So, how can the duality be discounted here ??

Regards

Rajalakshmi
24 January 2008, 08:00 AM
Namaste RL,

I hope you have not missed that the account of Visvarupa-Darshan is given in full detail in Gita, which is all visual & undoubtably there is a seer & the seen. So, how can the duality be discounted here ??

Regards

By that same token Lord Krishna who is able to talk to Arjuna must be called an ajnAni too, since he *sees* Arjuna and all the warriors in the battle field. The same vishvarUpa must always be pratyaxa to Krishna too isnt it? So if you ask Krishna to describe he will also describe it the way Arjuna has. Does that mean Krishna is an ajnAni?

The visual is there because Arjuna sees world as a reflection of the Self, and the Self itself cannot be described except that Arjuna calls it anantaM, axaraM, paramaM etc( no one will call vishva and taijasa as axaraM meaning eternal). Arjuna is giving a description of dualty that he percieves in the lower states. If he describes nothing, then we would have to assume that he realized nothing. The description may also be only graphic - remember that also. Even vishva and taijasa can never be described in terms of words.

Arjuna would be able to describe only concepts that figure in the seer-seen relationship that can happen only in vishva and taijasa. Can the Absolute be described? But the visvarUpa can never be seen external to onself - this needs to be remembered as it will create a huge logical paradox as explained above.

Another thing that has to be known is that Self and mAyA are related by an equation of the form;

Self + mAyA = k

If mAyA is fully known, Self is always fully known too. If mAyA is unknown, Self is unknown too. That is how Ishvara is aware of both Self and non self all the time. This is the case with all uttama purushas. Is Arjuna an uttama purusha? Yes, say the pramANAs.


~RL

devotee
25 January 2008, 12:21 PM
Namaste Rajlakshmi,

I think we were discussing "whether Visvarupa Darshan is the ultimate Brahman Darshana or not ?". Right ? How does this logic fit here :


By that same token Lord Krishna who is able to talk to Arjuna must be called an ajnAni too, since he *sees* Arjuna and all the warriors in the battle field. The same vishvarUpa must always be pratyaxa to Krishna too isnt it? So if you ask Krishna to describe he will also describe it the way Arjuna has. Does that mean Krishna is an ajnAni?

How is it able to prove whether Visvarupa darshan is Ultimate Brahman Darshan or not ? Do you mean to say, that a person who "talks" in duality is an Ajnani ? If that is the logic then all Jnanis will reduce to Ajnani ! You can only talk in duality. There is no "talk" possible in Non-duality. Do you mean to say that Jnani doesn't see the world in duality ever ? Doesn't he talk ?

Visvarupa Darshan is just an interaction in duality .... the only thing great about it is that Arjuna sees everything in the world within Lord Krishna. The Divya Chakshus are needed to see this because you can't see such a huge & "alaukik" thing with your eyes. This "alaukik" Darshan was to make Arjuna aware of the "Isavara-shakti" of Lord Krishna. Let's not forget that Arjuna is not Jnani yet i.e. he is not established in Non-duality. That is why Lord Krishna says, "You learn that Jnan from the Jnani sages i.e. the self-realised souls. By serving them, by asking them with due respect, those self realised souls will impart you the knowledge of Atma-jnan/real knowledge. Having obtained real knowledge from such a self-realized soul, you will never fall again into such illusion, for by this knowledge you will see that all living beings in Atman, not different from me."


The visual is there because Arjuna sees world as a reflection of the Self, and the Self itself cannot be described except that Arjuna calls it anantaM, axaraM, paramaM etc

Thw words Ananatam, axaram & paramam are used in duality as well. You can hear many bhakti songs wherein these words are used. That doesn't prove that the singer is established in Non-duality. Don't get confused by use of same words at different places. Same words at different places many a times carry different meanings.


Arjuna is giving a description of dualty that he percieves in the lower states. If he describes nothing, then we would have to assume that he realized nothing.

There is no reason for Arjuna to tell someone what he is not seeing. He is talking to Lord Krishna & to nobody else. Why will he say something which he is not seeing ? There appears absolutely no compulsion.


the visvarUpa can never be seen external to onself - this needs to be remembered as it will create a huge logical paradox as explained above.

This logic is not correct. The Darshan is by the grace of Lord Krishna & it is dependent on what He wants to show to Arjuna (& not what our logic says) .... he keeps on saying this too in the verses. Let's not forget that Mother Yashoda too saw the entire Universe in the mouth of Lord Krishna .... with your logic this also couldn't be possible.


Another thing that has to be known is that Self and mAyA are related by an equation of the form;

Self + mAyA = k

I don't agree with this equation. This shows that there exists something named as "k" which is more than SELF. This equation also shows the source of all your confusion. "Maya" is not separate from SELF.

Let's remember that the Visvarupa was "seen" not only by Arjuna but also by Sanjay. Shall we assume thar Sanjay too got established in Non-duality ?

Again, this Visvarupa was not permanent but had been aquired by Lord Krishna for a special purpose ..... "Kaalosmi lok kshaykritpravriddho ....". So, when the rupa (i.e. form) was not permanent but temporary & subject to change then how it could it be "Darshan" of the Absolute ? By definition, the Absolute is what never changes whereas the World is what keeps on changing its form. Changes are possible only in the World/ in duality & not in the absolute.

Regards

Znanna
25 January 2008, 08:21 PM
*pats cat and listens to purring*

yajvan
26 January 2008, 12:35 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


I can almost follow this debate - ZN

Namaste devotee, RL, atanu ZN, (et.al)

As atanu suggested earlier this may not be a debate...
for those that follow along and are trying to comprehend the subject at hand , perhaps adding definitions of words or of at least the core-hub words that make your posts a conversation such as:

Visvarupa Darshan - if we take some of the components:

viSNu + rUpa
viSNu = all pervading some say all pervader.
rUPa = form, shape , figure; formed or composed of
So Visvarupa is the All Pervading Form.. we call this/Him Visnu (viSNu).

And Darshan ( some write darSana) is sight or vision It is associated with auspicious sight or vision, no less.

So this key term that has been at the crux of the conversation for the last few posts at least is Visvarupa Darshan, the vision or sight of the All pervading form ( a blessing no doubt to behold).

[ BG, note no bold letters were used!http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]

HDF Members, this was one of the requests we recieved from the group-at-large that added value to an HDF post i.e. defining terms.

Many appreciate the wisdom, POV, and the time you folks take to think the posts through; adding a few seconds more on definitions will enrich the experience.

Perhaps with the definitions, we can ask satay or I will be glad to assist to 'vacuum up' the definitions and at them to our lexicon. Perhaps that is a prudent activity too.

pranams

Bob G
26 January 2008, 02:40 PM
Hello Yajvan,

Ok, good point - basic or complex definitions that have agreed upon meanings and then used with the understandings related to such agreements can be of great value! I made a remark in an earlier thread about definitions that were seemingly being used by fellow members as amunition to more or less shoot (or go at) one another.

"[ BG, note no bold letters were used!http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]" [ :) cool]

Om

yajvan
26 January 2008, 10:35 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~

Hello Yajvan,

Ok, good point - basic or complex definitions that have agreed upon meanings and then used with the understandings related to such agreements can be of great value! I made a remark in an earlier thread about definitions that were seemingly being used by fellow members as amunition to more or less shoot (or go at) one another.

"[ BG, note no bold letters were used!http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]" [ :) cool]

Om

Hello BG,
Yes, defintions are useful... back in 2007 a handful of us asked the HDF folks what was valuable... here is the results: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2550

Many try to use this as a guideline.

And as you mention ,
being used by fellow members as amunition to more or less shoot (or go at) one another - I missed that point, thank you for pointing it out. I think for some, the terms are just second nature and are offered with no ill-intent. In any case knowing the veribage is useful to form POV's, learn, and understand.

Take care and I look forward to your posts and great defintions to follow.

devotee
27 January 2008, 01:09 AM
Namaste BOB G & yajvan ji,

Thanks for the reminder ! :)

Let me clarify the words I used :

i) Visvarupa Darshan ---> Already explained by Yajvan ji. The term has been used in reference to Bhagwad Gita, Chapter-11.

ii) Jnani ---> He who is established in Non-duality. (Literal meaning --> He who knows)

iii) Ajnani ---> The antonym of Jnani

iv) Divya Chakshus ---> Extra-ordinary Visionary powers ( to see which cannot be seen through human eyes)

v) Alaukik ---> Not of this world

vi) Ananatam ---> The Infinite

vii) Axaram ---> Imperishable

viii)Paramam ---> The Ultimate

ix) Maya ---> The Illusion

Note : If any other words are still difficult to comprehend to anyone, those may please be indicated, so that the same may be clarified.
----------------------------

Regards