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Arjuna
10 May 2006, 05:18 PM
Can anyone tell me what are the two subsects in Shrivaishnava tradition? I know they differ by tilaka form: one uses urdhva-tripundra (nAma) with a small additional line on the nose, and another without it (also the form of these two variations of urdhva-pundra differ a bit).
What are the differences of these two and what was their origin?

orlando
11 May 2006, 03:00 AM
Namaste Shri Arjuna.
Please read the questions at http://www.srivaishnavan.com/faq_vadakalai.html and the answers at http://www.srivaishnavan.com/ans_vadakalai.html#1

Regards,
Orlando.

Arjuna
11 May 2006, 04:25 AM
Namaste Shri Arjuna.
Please read the questions at http://www.srivaishnavan.com/faq_vadakalai.html and the answers at http://www.srivaishnavan.com/ans_vadakalai.html#1

Thank U :).

I have found a notion of nama-differences: "The Vadakalais form their tilaka marks in the shape of a "U." The Tenkalai form their tilaka mark in the form of a "Y.""

Thus, i belong to Vadakalai branch — my deshika was having "U" shaped nama and taught me the same. Nice, since Vadakalai is more Shakta :)

sarabhanga
11 May 2006, 05:30 AM
Namaste Arjuna,

The Khara Tilaka of Vaishnava Sadhus is quite distinctive for each Sampradaya.

Acaris of Shri Sampradaya terminate their vertical lines at the middle of the eye-brows.
Vadakalai Acaris draw a simple white line on their forehead, curved in a ‘U’ shape between the eyebrows.
Tenkalai Acaris, however, add a red vertical line to form a trident.
Madhvacaris of Brahma Sampradaya use a black central line.
Vairagis of Ramanandi Sampradaya extend the lines onto the upper part of the nose; and they claim that they have special permission from Vishnu to use their nose as his seat!
There are various Vairagi markings, depending on the sub-sect:
Raktashrivala ~ with a red mark;
Shuklashrivala ~ with a white mark;
Bindivala ~ with a central dot; and
Caturbhuji ~ with only the two verticals.
And each of these Vairagi sub-sects has further sub-divisions with other slight variations (e.g. with a big dot or a small dot, etc.).
Madhvagaudiyas use two white or sandal paste lines extending onto the nose before uniting in the middle part of the nose. The lower part looks like a beak, and they are often called Cancuvala Baba.

Arjuna
11 May 2006, 05:51 AM
Namaste Arjuna,
The Khara Tilaka of Vaishnava Sadhus is quite distinctive for each Sampradaya.

Namaste Sarabhanga,

Could U please tell what is this tilaka:

"U" shaped white sign on a forehead, a red/orange line in between two sides of "U" and a red dot in the center of middle line?
As a variantion, only central red/orange line with a dot at its center or base.
And in both cases there is no additional line extending to nose.

sarabhanga
11 May 2006, 06:47 AM
The Tilak is very important for most Sadhus, and there would not normally be much variation in its basic form.
It sounds most likely Tenkalai Shri Vaishnava, although perhaps some sub-sect of Ramanandi.
Vairagi (Ramanandi) Sadhus, however, commonly (but not always) also apply sacred ash.
The best indication would be from the particular mantra used for japa.

kimtadbrahma
11 May 2006, 10:31 AM
The division in the Sri Sampradaya into the Vadakalai and Tenkalai dates back to the 1300s AD or perhaps earlier. Apart from the varying understandings of the nature of divine grace there are other differences as well. The Tenkalai tend to be more liberal on issues of caste and offer the mantra om namo nararanaya to all initiates, whilst the Vadakalai offer om namo narayanaya to Brahmins and namo narayanaya to other castes. The Tenkalai also tend to use a Tamil liturgy in their rituals whilst the Vadakalai are more inclined towards the use of Sanskrit.

orlando
11 May 2006, 10:40 AM
The Tenkalai tend to be more liberal on issues of caste and offer the mantra om namo nararanaya to all initiates, whilst the Vadakalai offer om namo narayanaya to Brahmins and namo narayanaya to other castes. The Tenkalai also tend to use a Tamil liturgy in their rituals whilst the Vadakalai are more inclined towards the use of Sanskrit.

Someone told me that Vadakalai offer Am Namo Narayanaya to westerns.

Jalasayanan
11 May 2006, 12:06 PM
Someone told me that Vadakalai offer Am Namo Narayanaya to westerns.
That is true.

The sacred mantra of Om is only for initiated Vaishnavas in Vadakalai sect,

Initiation comes in the form of Panchasamaskara and Yagnopavitha. For this reason, even women in Vadakalai sect do not receit OM

This is just a matter of belief and ardent practioners seems to be very limited

sarabhanga
12 May 2006, 08:42 AM
Namaste,

As far as I know, Shri Vaishnava Acaris all receive the Ashtakshara Mantra ~ oM namo nArAyaNAya.

aM is Vishnu, as Vaishvanara; and AM is Shri Lakshmi.

Ramanandi Vairagis, on the other hand, are all devotees of Rama and/or Krishna. And Vairagi Sadhus are also called Avadhuta.

Arjuna
12 May 2006, 10:22 AM
Is the mantra "aM namo nArAyaNAya" given in Pancharatra Agamas?
This is interesting, since a-kAra is of special importance in Krama tradition of Kashmir, which could have been a root of Pancharatra or at least was somehow related to it.

sarabhanga
12 May 2006, 10:28 AM
i belong to Vadakalai branch
If your Guru is Vadakalai Shri Vaishnava, I would expect him to reject both meat and alcohol; and if Vadakalai tradition actually prevents Hindu women from pronouncing AUM, then I expect that it would also be problematic for foreign aspirants seeking full initiation into Ramanuja's Sampradaya.

If non-Brahmanas (and all women) cannot know the Pranava, then they are barred from knowing Brahman. And if aM or AM is given as an alternative for such unfortunate individuals, it seems that Vishnu can be known by anyone, but not so the Brahman. In which case, Vishnu must not be equivalent with Brahman. ;)

Arjuna
12 May 2006, 10:38 AM
If your Guru is Vadakalai Shri Vaishnava, I would expect him to reject both meat and alcohol; and if Vadakalai tradition actually prevents Hindu women from pronouncing AUM, then I expect that it would also be problematic for foreign aspirants seeking full initiation into Ramanuja's Sampradaya.

Yes, my deshika who was a Shrivaishnava never took meat and wine, though he was a Shrividyopasaka as well.
I am not sure if he was a Vadakalai, just suggested that judging by nama form.

I follow Shaiva-mata in its Kaula form and not any of Vaishnava traditions.


If non-Brahmanas (and all women) cannot know the Pranava, then they are barred from knowing Brahman. And if aM or AM is given as an alternative for such unfortunate individuals, it seems that Vishnu can be known by anyone, but not so the Brahman. In which case, Vishnu must not be equivalent with Brahman. ;)

Nicely put! :))

Jalasayanan
12 May 2006, 11:16 AM
Is the mantra "aM namo nArAyaNAya" given in Pancharatra Agamas?
This is interesting, since a-kAra is of special importance in Krama tradition of Kashmir, which could have been a root of Pancharatra or at least was somehow related to it.
No, this is not in paancharaatra agama but followed as per traditions given by perceptors

Jalasayanan
12 May 2006, 11:31 AM
If non-Brahmanas (and all women) cannot know the Pranava, then they are barred from knowing Brahman. And if aM or AM is given as an alternative for such unfortunate individuals, it seems that Vishnu can be known by anyone, but not so the Brahman. In which case, Vishnu must not be equivalent with Brahman

Oops, I do not know Yajnopavitha is meant only for Brahmin as a tradition of Hinduism. As far as I know, it is meant for traivarnis

Brahminism by means is not attained by birth, hope I need not to say this again, hope many will concur with me on this. Once the practise is pure, one elevates to the level of Brahmana, so honestly speaking, any person, even foreigners for that fact, if practise is pure (they are eligible for brahminhood.

Now to answer the suggestions made.

If god is known only by brahmin or a person with Yajnopavitha, which is the actual suggestion made by Sarabhanga, then God actually fails to be one, in which case, all others (Other than Sri Hari, Vishnu, Narayana) fails to be Brahman hence cannot be God as such.

As Vishnu can be known by any person as suggested by Shri Sarabhanga and it automatically says other dieties cannot be known like that, then god becomes a concept worth for very few, where in such idea is false. God is open for all. Having said that, the very statement made by Shri Sarabhanga tells us that Vishnu is only person worth to be God

I am unable to understand why god cannot be known by all? Scriptures tells us many does not know him with an idea that many do not consciously try to know him but it never categorically refused that few cannot understand god what so ever it happens. I can also see, Hinduism is the one of the religion that has refused presence of any force against god as such

In my comparitive analysis only Islam proclaims few cannot understand allah for allah himself had sealed their hearts. No other religion as such suggests this idea

sarabhanga
13 May 2006, 11:02 PM
Namaste Jalasayanan,

In traditional Hindu Dharma, Brahmanhood is attained through a series of ritual Samskaras, which are essential “graduation ceremonies” that sanction the aspirant’s transition to higher stages of spiritual development.

Anyone can claim “I am a Brahmana”, although others who are already proven Brahmanas must make the judgment here on earth ~ and the ultimate truth of the matter will be reckoned and the judgment passed by Yama, after death.

Brahman is the ultimate Truth, which can only be known by a true Brahmana; and Brahman is ultimately revealed by the Pranava ~ AUM.

If non-Brahmanas and women are barred from uttering the Pranava (as per other posters’ suggestions regarding Shri Vaishnava tradition), then my previous comment follows ~ but where have I mentioned anything about the Yajnopavita?

Jalasayanan
15 May 2006, 01:54 PM
Namaste Jalasayanan,

In traditional Hindu Dharma, Brahmanhood is attained through a series of ritual Samskaras, which are essential “graduation ceremonies” that sanction the aspirant’s transition to higher stages of spiritual development.

Anyone can claim “I am a Brahmana”, although others who are already proven Brahmanas must make the judgment here on earth ~ and the ultimate truth of the matter will be reckoned and the judgment passed by Yama, after death.

Brahman is the ultimate Truth, which can only be known by a true Brahmana; and Brahman is ultimately revealed by the Pranava ~ AUM.
Thanks for the clarifications


If non-Brahmanas and women are barred from uttering the Pranava (as per other posters’ suggestions regarding Shri Vaishnava tradition), then my previous comment follows ~ but where have I mentioned anything about the Yajnopavita?
The only reference in my post pertaining to Brahmanastri is Yajnopavitha, as I had said absence of Yajnopavitha debars them, thus the reference.

And to your previous comment, I had seen the other side of the coin, and posted the same.

Thankyou ji

Madhavachari
18 June 2006, 05:04 AM
For your information:

I am not Indian by birth nor born in a brahmana family. However, when I was in Sriperumbudur and received pancha samskara from my Acharya, he gave me both upanayana samskara and the original astaksharam with pranava (aum).

A friend of mine, who is not Indian or brahmana by birth, also received the astaksharam with pranava from Sri Rangapriya Swami of Bangalore.

C.K.
27 December 2006, 05:06 PM
Perhaps you can help me being such a newbie. There is a Sri Venkateswara Temple near me, which I certainly wish to visit. Will I be able to tell if it is Vadakalai or Tenkalai by the tilaks on the pandits? I assume that in India which subsect you follow is probably determined by family, but in the West what do people do? Is there an head of each sect in India? Sorry to be so clueless!
C.K.

sarabhanga
05 July 2007, 01:41 AM
There is a Sri Venkateswara Temple near me, which I certainly wish to visit. Will I be able to tell if it is Vadakalai or Tenkalai by the tilaks on the pandits?

IF the pandits are associated with the Shri Vaishnava Sampradaya, then presumably yes. :rolleyes: