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c.smith
10 May 2006, 09:17 PM
Namaste -

I have several questions that pertain to finding my path within the Hindu faith. Much of what I'll be writing has been on my mind for some time, but I haven't been able to find the answers that I'm looking for from the resources that I've used. Anything that you could suggest or offer would be greatly appreciated.

My experience lies mainly with ISKCON, and although I believe much of what they've taught, I have a few areas that make me uncomfortable. One is that I won't be able to be initiated because of my views on the 4th principle. I am also concerned because everything that I asked, no matter how detailed, seems to answered with "chant more" or "read more".

Before my introduction to the Hare Krishna's, I was "praying" to Vishnu. One of the questions I have is why don't we just pray to Vishnu instead of Krishna if Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu? Is praying to Krishna the same thing?

I also don't know how to preform puja, aarti and darshan. The puja that I do daily (if you can call it that) is to Ganesha. I consider him my friend and guide. It consists of lighting candles, making an offering, lighting incense and chanting a mantra. Any resourse you could suggest to get me up to speed?

I've been emailing the Temples here in the city but have not had replies. Is it appropriate to visit?

How does one "choose" which God to worship? If I were to follow my heart, it would be Vishnu. Are there Temples devoted just to Him? If there isn't one locally is it best to choose a Deity that is local? I've also been reading books from the Himalayan Academy about Shiva.

Further, when is it appropriate to seek a Guru?

As you can see, I am truly lost. My beliefs are in line with the Hindu faith, but as someone at the starting line, it's been difficult to find my place.

Many thanks for anything that you might suggest.

Clay

Singhi Kaya
11 May 2006, 07:04 AM
I'll say it depends on your inclination. If want to resolve about God philosophically first and have the intellectual apetite for that best thing to do is by the set of 12 Upanisads and Bhagvat Gita and read and think. I think vedanta is the first step to hinduism if one doesn't want to get overwhelmed by cultural symbols and so many Gods. vedanta should natuarally this will lead to yoga and america is full with such schools i guess. Ofcourse many teachers are just businessman and one should be aware of this and travel the path alone in such a case, until one gets fortunate enough to meet a real teacher who suits our personal temperment and stage. This (lack of authentic soiritual teachers to common man) is the biggest hindrance to hinduism I think. Living in India~search for teachers haven't been easy for me. In such a situation one can take refuge in the classification of diksha and sikhsa guru. One can take initiation from anyone who has some knowledge to impart so, but wait for the real teacher. this is for those who are open to intellectual path.

[...]

But in that case too I'ud guess, in absence of a guru personal study and devotion and contemplation is the way till one meets one.

In most general terms, I think you need not to get worked up for not being able to attend a temple and do puja according the ancient science of rituals. Everyday we should try to learn and know a little more, drop by drop~thay way there is no stopping of progress however little. This has helped me, I would think it should help all.

Finally, my answer here was more speak my own mind and haven't answered you point by point or fully. because I can only say what I can feel. hope it may be of some help.

Singhi Kaya
11 May 2006, 07:33 AM
trying to answer more directly now:)



My experience lies mainly with ISKCON, and although I believe much of what they've taught, I have a few areas that make me uncomfortable. One is that I won't be able to be initiated because of my views on the 4th principle. I am also concerned because everything that I asked, no matter how detailed, seems to answered with "chant more" or "read more".
If you are not comfortable then you should not get initiated.


Before my introduction to the Hare Krishna's, I was "praying" to Vishnu. One of the questions I have is why don't we just pray to Vishnu instead of Krishna if Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu? Is praying to Krishna the same thing?
It's all the same. In hinduism all Gods is the same God in many places and in different context. This is the right way to think. Ofcourse they are also different aspects of the same god_head and thus have different qualities~but that is monist thinking. Krishna is traditionally vishnu's avatar and he is the supreme personality of god-head for many monists as well. I think devotion to any will mean the same thing. If you go beyond devotion and look for guidance to action I'ud prefer krishna of Gita. he is the supreme guru (the real jagat guru or world teacher) or teacher for all hindus and not just Gd.


I also don't know how to preform puja, aarti and darshan. The puja that I do daily (if you can call it that) is to Ganesha. I consider him my friend and guide. It consists of lighting candles, making an offering, lighting incense and chanting a mantra. Any resourse you could suggest to get me up to speed?

Hindunet forums have some guidance on worship of various god~satay may be able to point you out.


I've been emailing the Temples here in the city but have not had replies. Is it appropriate to visit?
temples are not good in the virtual world. Why not give a call or pay a visit? Or try to connect to a like minded practicing hindu over the net who can then help you to a temple and ashram. But beaware of commercial enterprizes who sell hindu spirituality to spirituality deprived by cash heavy folks of the west. I don't want you to come out of hinduism with a bitter taste in mouth and becoming an anti sanatana dharma preacher for many lives. I think his happens and all these businessmen of spirituality are big asuras in hinduism, it is saddning. trust your heart and intuition and judgement.


How does one "choose" which God to worship? If I were to follow my heart, it would be Vishnu. Are there Temples devoted just to Him? If there isn't one locally is it best to choose a Deity that is local? I've also been reading books from the Himalayan Academy about Shiva.
Vishnu should be the deity for you in that case, but a real guru can only guide not me. there are many temples dedicated to vishnu.


Further, when is it appropriate to seek a Guru?
when you think you can't do without one:)
however don't loose a day and try to learn more everyday.
Also remember the diksha guru and sikhsa guru difference as well.


As you can see, I am truly lost. My beliefs are in line with the Hindu faith, but as someone at the starting line, it's been difficult to find my place.
I was born a hindu brhamin and found myself drift long distance away and fully confused about my religion. So I guess it is natural. hinduism is so vast and offer so many choices vis-a-vis a one book dogma on god like organised western religions, that confusion is very likely.
That's why I mentioned getting the intellectual part clear if you have the apetite for it. Such study and contemplation is itself a sadhana and great way to prepare one self for serious journey in hinduism. Most well known and capable western hindu's have am intellectual approach and I'm begining to think it is one of the best way to place hinduism to west so that culture doesn't come as a shock and truth is established first. This should even hold for vasihnavism and time spend in studying and contemplating bhagavatam cannot go to waste

Regards


Many thanks for anything that you might suggest.

Clay[/quote]

Jalasayanan
11 May 2006, 11:44 AM
Offering Puja is Vishnu is very simple.

It consists of Lights (We use vegetable oils and ghee; ghee is good, candles are also OK), Camphor, incense sticks, Sandol wood paste, Kumkum (or Chendhur). Order makes no difference. Final closure can be done by Camphor

Keep good water in a small container with a spoon. Suggest to isolate vessels used for Puja and use it only for puja

What ever vegetarian food you cook offer it God mentally and sprinkle holy water on it.

If you can help me with the languages you know, I can help with other chantings and prayers slokas

Arjuna
11 May 2006, 05:57 PM
Namaste -
I have several questions that pertain to finding my path within the Hindu faith. Much of what I'll be writing has been on my mind for some time, but I haven't been able to find the answers that I'm looking for from the resources that I've used. Anything that you could suggest or offer would be greatly appreciated.
My experience lies mainly with ISKCON, and although I believe much of what they've taught, I have a few areas that make me uncomfortable. One is that I won't be able to be initiated because of my views on the 4th principle. I am also concerned because everything that I asked, no matter how detailed, seems to answered with "chant more" or "read more".


Namaste,

Maybe U try to get some idea of Shri Vallabhacharya's Vaishnavism and Shrivaishnavism? These two traditions are IMO most serious among existing nowadays.

Then, Guru is needed. Pray to Shri Hari, and He will bring U to Ur Guru. Bhakti and Atma-samarpana is essential.

Jade Bridge
11 May 2006, 07:47 PM
Namaste -

I have several questions that pertain to finding my path within the Hindu faith. Much of what I'll be writing has been on my mind for some time, but I haven't been able to find the answers that I'm looking for from the resources that I've used. Anything that you could suggest or offer would be greatly appreciated.

My experience lies mainly with ISKCON, and although I believe much of what they've taught, I have a few areas that make me uncomfortable. One is that I won't be able to be initiated because of my views on the 4th principle. I am also concerned because everything that I asked, no matter how detailed, seems to answered with "chant more" or "read more".

Before my introduction to the Hare Krishna's, I was "praying" to Vishnu. One of the questions I have is why don't we just pray to Vishnu instead of Krishna if Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu? Is praying to Krishna the same thing?

I also don't know how to preform puja, aarti and darshan. The puja that I do daily (if you can call it that) is to Ganesha. I consider him my friend and guide. It consists of lighting candles, making an offering, lighting incense and chanting a mantra. Any resourse you could suggest to get me up to speed?

I've been emailing the Temples here in the city but have not had replies. Is it appropriate to visit?

How does one "choose" which God to worship? If I were to follow my heart, it would be Vishnu. Are there Temples devoted just to Him? If there isn't one locally is it best to choose a Deity that is local? I've also been reading books from the Himalayan Academy about Shiva.

Further, when is it appropriate to seek a Guru?

As you can see, I am truly lost. My beliefs are in line with the Hindu faith, but as someone at the starting line, it's been difficult to find my place.

Many thanks for anything that you might suggest.

Clay

I just want to add that I practically mirror your sentiments, with the exception of ISKCON. With respect to local temples, is it more appropriate to call, or write a real letter as opposed to email? I just don't understand why there's been no answer. :confused:
To add my two cents to your questions, tho of course I am speaking as a humble beginner such as yourself....my instinct would tell me you should follow your heart, which in your case, would be Vishnu.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
11 May 2006, 09:37 PM
My experience lies mainly with ISKCON, and although I believe much of what they've taught, I have a few areas that make me uncomfortable. One is that I won't be able to be initiated because of my views on the 4th principle. I am also concerned because everything that I asked, no matter how detailed, seems to answered with "chant more" or "read more".


In my opinion, ISKCON is to Hinduism as Jehovah's Witnesses is to Christianity. On the other hand, generally the more you chant (purely of course) and the more you read, the more progress will be made but it takes time. I'm not sure what you mean by the 4th principle because I don't know what order you are putting their four regulative principles or what order they list them in. I agree and disagree to some degree with their regulative principles because it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to become a renounced monk, you should be a celibate, free from intoxicants, meat-eating, and gambling. That is my opinion. On the other hand, if you prefer to live a balanced lifestyle (material and spiritual), then ultimately you have to be the one who decides what is best for you. I am a vegetarian and think that abstaining from meat is valuable toward spiritual progress. I disagree with ISKCON's principle against the use of intoxicants. I actually find that intoxicants improve my meditation and focus in spiritual matters.



Before my introduction to the Hare Krishna's, I was "praying" to Vishnu. One of the questions I have is why don't we just pray to Vishnu instead of Krishna if Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu? Is praying to Krishna the same thing?


Who you pray to is a personal choice of yours. Nobody should judge you based on who is your primary deity of worship. Any Hindu who gives you a hard time because you pray to a different god is bogus.



I also don't know how to preform puja, aarti and darshan. The puja that I do daily (if you can call it that) is to Ganesha. I consider him my friend and guide. It consists of lighting candles, making an offering, lighting incense and chanting a mantra. Any resourse you could suggest to get me up to speed?

I've been emailing the Temples here in the city but have not had replies. Is it appropriate to visit?


The best thing would be to visit the temples and find some good association with other Hindus. You will meet plenty of Hindus by going to these temples and chances are some of them will be able to give you tips on performing pujas, aartis, or other rituals that you are interested in. Each temple should have a pujari (priest) that is knowledgable in the rituals performed at that temple.



How does one "choose" which God to worship? If I were to follow my heart, it would be Vishnu. Are there Temples devoted just to Him? If there isn't one locally is it best to choose a Deity that is local? I've also been reading books from the Himalayan Academy about Shiva.


The key IS to follow your heart. Nobody has any business telling you which God to worship. That is a personal choice of yours. I don't believe you can make much progress in spiritual matters if you don't follow your heart. Following your heart is very important in spiritual matters.



Further, when is it appropriate to seek a Guru?


This is a tough question. I don't have a guru but have always wanted one. The problem is that I have been unable to find someone I would consider taking as a guru. I tend to keep my spiritual "guard" up very high perhaps making it difficult to find one I would take as my guru. This is something that generally takes time. Having a guru is a big step in spiritual progress and should only be done when you feel you are ready. You have to be able to trust that the person won't lead you astray and you still have to give yourself a "reality check" to make sure that your guru isn't filling your head with nonsense. Until you find a guru, there are many ways to continue spiritual advancement including positive spiritual association, reading the scriptures and other valuable writings, mediation, prayer, rituals, chanting, etc. Good luck. Namaskaar. :) ~BYS~

satay
12 May 2006, 12:58 AM
Just a side note on guru...it is said that the guru finds you when you are ready!

c.smith
12 May 2006, 10:46 AM
Thank-you all for the specific suggestions. I now have several new ways to approach this. Sometimes the most simple advice turns out to be the best. I appreciate the encouragement. Being new and not knowing how to fit in is always uncomfortable, but I am grateful to the forum for all it provides.

Namaste -

Clay

Jade Bridge
14 May 2006, 05:09 PM
[quote=Bhakti Yoga Seeker]In my opinion, ISKCON is to Hinduism as Jehovah's Witnesses is to Christianity.

I'd agree with you on that. :eek:

Bhava dasa
08 June 2006, 11:04 PM
I am also concerned because everything that I asked, no matter how detailed, seems to answered with "chant more" or "read more".
Having been an ISKCON devotee for over 30 years, I find this response a little unusual. There must be something you're leaving out here. I could understand that response if you asked a question, were given an answer, rejected it...and asked the same question again. But, to respond in that way to someone who is submissively inquisitive doesn't make sense.


One of the questions I have is why don't we just pray to Vishnu instead of Krishna if Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu?
Is this one of the questions you are referring to above? What was their response?


I've been emailing the Temples here in the city but have not had replies. Is it appropriate to visit?
Of course. But how did you ask the question before?


How does one "choose" which God to worship? If I were to follow my heart, it would be Vishnu.
What do you wish to gain from your worship?

c.smith
09 June 2006, 08:56 PM
Bhava dasa

Thank-you for your thoughtful reply.

In terms of some of my questions:

I was told that Vishnu is an avatar of Krishna, that Krishna is the original God - there is no one above him. Funny thing, I thought that Krishna was the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. Am I correct?

In terms of asking questions only to get the "chant more/read more" reply, one of my questions pertains to my relationship of 6 years to my partner. I was told by a "Spiritual Master" that I had to give up this relationship or I would never be able to have the guidance of a Guru. I realize that sex is only for procreative purposes but having to give up my relationship? I don't think so. As a result, I have explored and am comfortable with Lord Shiva. Some might say that it is the easy way, but I'm finding through meditation and contemplation that this is more in tune with my spiritual values. Said "Spiritual Master" and a few devotees are the ones proclaiming that Vishnu is an avatar of Krishna. Further, I was told that Krishna appeared as the 8th incarnation because he was needed at the time for spiritual revival.

Some of the questions I have must be answered with more than chanting, yet I'm told that if I put my thoughts out to Krishna that the answer will come. Again, some are about my realtionship, but many are the same questions I answered as a child. In my early childhood my parents weren't able to respond, so the preacher (I grew up Christian) was called and couldn't answer as well. I won't go into all of the questions, but some pertain to creation. Adam and Eve sort of stuff. Christianity couldn't satisfactorly answer my queries.

I feel that I have found my place with Shiva. I pretty much believed everything that I was told by ISKCON without reservation. Perhaps the chanting that was perscribed has taken me to Lord Shiva. Some might say that it's any easy way out by not accepting all that ISKCON has to offer, but if I truly follow where I'm being guided today, Lord Shiva is where I need to be.

I hope that I've been clear with my convictions and am satisfied with what I'm learning in relation to Lord Shiva and the Vedas. I look forward to satsang with a new group that has come my way. I am finally getting the replies from the Hindu organizations that I've contacted.

Again, many thanks for your efforts. But even Krishna (and ISKCON) says that there are other ways to self realization.

c.smith
09 June 2006, 09:02 PM
Bhava dasa

Thank-you for your thoughtful reply.

In terms of some of my questions:

I was told that Vishnu is an avatar of Krishna, that Krishna is the original God - there is no one above him. Funny thing, I thought that Krishna was the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. Am I correct?

In terms of asking questions only to get the "chant more/read more" reply, one of my questions pertains to my relationship of 6 years to my partner. I was told by a "Spiritual Master" that I had to give up this relationship or I would never be able to have the guidance of a Guru. I realize that sex is only for procreative purposes but having to give up my relationship? I don't think so. As a result, I have explored and am comfortable with Lord Shiva. Some might say that it is the easy way, but I'm finding through meditation and contemplation that this is more in tune with my spiritual values. Said "Spiritual Master" and a few devotees are the ones proclaiming that Vishnu is an avatar of Krishna. Further, I was told that Krishna appeared as the 8th incarnation because he was needed at the time for spiritual revival.

Some of the questions I have must be answered with more than chanting, yet I'm told that if I put my thoughts out to Krishna that the answer will come. Again, some are about my realtionship, but many are the same questions I answered as a child. In my early childhood my parents weren't able to respond, so the preacher (I grew up Christian) was called and couldn't answer as well. I won't go into all of the questions, but some pertain to creation. Adam and Eve sort of stuff. Christianity couldn't satisfactorly answer my queries.

I feel that I have found my place with Shiva. I pretty much believed everything that I was told by ISKCON without reservation. Perhaps the chanting that was perscribed has taken me to Lord Shiva. Some might say that it's any easy way out by not accepting all that ISKCON has to offer, but if I truly follow where I'm being guided today, Lord Shiva is where I need to be.

I hope that I've been clear with my convictions and am satisfied with what I'm learning in relation to Lord Shiva and the Vedas. I look forward to satsang with a new group that has come my way. I am finally getting the replies from the Hindu organizations that I've contacted.

Again, many thanks for your efforts. But even Krishna (and ISKCON) says that there are other ways to self realization.

c.smith
09 June 2006, 09:08 PM
Sorry about the double post. Has trouble posting the original, unsure how to edit out the second post.

Bhava dasa
10 June 2006, 12:16 AM
I was told that Vishnu is an avatar of Krishna, that Krishna is the original God - there is no one above him. Funny thing, I thought that Krishna was the 8th incarnation of Vishnu. Am I correct?
Krsna is the original Person from whom He expands Himself as Visnu. When He enters the material atmosphere to engage in His pastimes, He does so through Visnu; therefore it appears that He is an incarnation of Visnu, but actually is not.


…one of my questions pertains to my relationship of 6 years to my partner. I was told by a "Spiritual Master" that I had to give up this relationship or I would never be able to have the guidance of a Guru. I realize that sex is only for procreative purposes but having to give up my relationship? I don't think so.
Assuming that the relationship was not destructively over-indulgent, from what you are saying here, it doesn’t make sense to me (with this limited picture) that you would have been given this type of advice. We are not this combination of material energy. We don’t choose which gender or preference. We are what we are. But, beyond the temporal external form, and beyond the subtle mind (which doesn’t always match the body), we are eternal souls. Whatever mess we find ourselves in, Krsna sees beyond it, and deeply cares for us anyway. Even if others are too blinded by the externals, He is not.

Krsna didn’t tell Arjuna to leave his ashram, but rather dovetail his nature in Gods service. This is called Karma-yoga. This instruction is found in the 3rd Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. This gradually purifies the conditioned soul from the stage of sakama karma-yoga to niskama karma-yoga, or pure devotional service.


As a result, I have explored and am comfortable with Lord Shiva. Some might say that it is the easy way, but I'm finding through meditation and contemplation that this is more in tune with my spiritual values.
Lord Siva is most compassionate, and is considered the topmost Vaisnava. Actually, He is Visnu transformed, just like milk is transformed into yogurt—“Dahi-Visnu.“


Again, many thanks for your efforts. But even Krishna (and ISKCON) says that there are other ways to self realization.
That’s right, if we are very sincere, Paramatma (the localized aspect of Bhagavan) Who is in the heart, will guide us from whatever direction we are coming. The main thing is to not let anything or anyone’s bad behavior stand in the way between us and our relationship with our Lord.

Hare Krsna,

satay
10 June 2006, 01:15 AM
Krsna is the original Person from whom He expands Himself as Visnu.


Namaste,
when you make statements like these please don't forget to mention that this is ISKCON view and not a sanatana dharma view. Normal hindu view on this is that Vishnu is supreme and krishna is one of the avatara just like Rama.



Lord Siva is most compassionate, and is considered the topmost Vaisnava. Actually, He is Visnu transformed, just like milk is transformed into yogurt—“Dahi-Visnu.“


again this is ISKCON view and not a normal hindu view...with this dahi-vishnu view you can transform milk into yogurt but yogurt can not transform himself back to milk. This is an example to show that shiva is dependent on krsna of iskcon. That is simply not the hindu view.



That’s right, if we are very sincere, Paramatma (the localized aspect of Bhagavan) Who is in the heart, will guide us from whatever direction we are coming. The main thing is to not let anything or anyone’s bad behavior stand in the way between us and our relationship with our Lord.

Hare Krsna,

One of the things that turns me off with ISKConites is that I can close my eyes and hear what they are saying and then plug 'christ' and 'jesus' to everywhere they are saying krsna and there doesnt seem to be any difference remaining. The preaching is exactly like a christian missionary does his preaching and selling of krsna is done in the same fashion as christian god is sold.

satay
10 June 2006, 01:18 AM
namaste Csmith,
If I were you, I would read the ISKCON stuff but then explore the hindu view points as well. Go to a library and pick up some books written by some indian authors. ISKCON view of 'all is krshna' is the same as the christian view of 'if you don't accpet jesus you are doomed' this is not the hindu view. If you are interested in hinduism look in the right places.

ISKCONites do not identify themselves as hindus (well some do when it is convienent for them)!

Bhava dasa
10 June 2006, 10:58 AM
Go to a library and pick up some books written by some indian authors. ISKCON view of 'all is krshna' is the same as the christian view of 'if you don't accpet jesus you are doomed' this is not the hindu view.

Anyway...God is not a Hindu, and neither are you. You were only born a Hindu in this life. However, you may very well become a non-Hindu in your next--then you can receive the predjudice you are expelling in this life.

Furthermore, the books that ISKCON devotees study, are written by an "Indian" author. He is my diksa guru for over 30 years. Where do you get your information?


If you are interested in hinduism look in the right places.
What is your definition of "Hindu"?


ISKCONites do not identify themselves as hindus (well some do when it is convienent for them)!
Did I offend you in some way? I was simply having a nice discussion with Csmith. I apologize if my words so deeply offended you. Hare Krsna.

Sudarshan
10 June 2006, 11:43 AM
when you make statements like these please don't forget to mention that this is ISKCON view and not a sanatana dharma view. Normal hindu view on this is that Vishnu is supreme and krishna is one of the avatara just like Rama.


It is always to funny to see the "original" word appended to Krishna everytime. I think it is a way they use to assert it. By the way, such a belief would not offend most Vaishnavites. Most of us see no differences whatsoever between Krishna and Vishnu. Avatar of God is non different in any way from God. If somebody wants to put Krishna over Vishnu that does not hurt Vaishnavites in anyway, except that it is a wrong beleif. It relies on a selective reading of Bhagavatam while totally ignoring the scriptural evidence in favour of Vishnu(Narayana) in the vedas. Even if Bhagavatam is stating so, it cannot override any shruti view - there simply is none higher than Narayana, and Krishna is the same as that. But holding that Krishna is the cause of Narayana is not supported by vedas at all. ( The word original is their own insertions into the translations)

Bhava dasa
10 June 2006, 01:42 PM
Most of us see no differences whatsoever between Krishna and Vishnu. Avatar of God is non different in any way from God.
Very true. Most don't see the difference. However, those who understand Visnu-tattva more completely, do. Visnu is Krsna "working".

The relitives and friends of a famous actor know who he is behind the costum--they know how others see him as well. They also appreciate him in his different roles, but have a particular preferance to see him in his more personal feature, as their friend, son, or lover. Can you be a friend, parent, or lover to Visnu? No. Visnu relationship is dasya-rasa only.

Others who are in awe and reverence see him according to their relationship, but its not the only relationship, and not the one that brings him the most pleasure and satisfaction.

It is a preference of rasa.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
10 June 2006, 02:57 PM
Krsna is the original Person from whom He expands Himself as Visnu. When He enters the material atmosphere to engage in His pastimes, He does so through Visnu; therefore it appears that He is an incarnation of Visnu, but actually is not.


This is strictly an ISKCON view and may also be shared a small number of other Vaishnava schools but this is certainly not mainstream Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma. I assume you are talking about ISKCON in this context as it seemed as if C.Smith was mentioning something about some of the things he learned from ISKCON temples. It is good to make clear which school you are coming from. Otherwise, if you are asserting that this view applies to all of Sanatana Dharma, I ask that you please back up your claims with references from the scriptures. As to Krishna being the eighth incarnation of Vishnu, I do remember reading this in the scriptures and I believe it was in the Vishnu Purana.



Lord Siva is most compassionate, and is considered the topmost Vaisnava. Actually, He is Visnu transformed, just like milk is transformed into yogurt—“Dahi-Visnu.“


This is an ISKCON view and not a mainstream Hindu view. No offense, but it is my opinion that this view on Shiva is bogus and downright disrespectful and even offensive to Lord Shiva. Vaishnavism is merely one of many schools of Sanatana Dharma. No where have I ever seen anyone (even from ISKCON) state that Shiva is of a certain school. I did not know that God or avatars were restricted to certain sects. I am not even going to ask for a scriptural citation because I already know that nowhere in the scriptures does it say this. I am not even aware of the term "Vaishnava" used in any scriptures. I am also highly skeptical of any shruti or smriti claiming that Shiva is "Vishnu transformed." At least not in the meaning that ISKCON gives it. This also doesn't seem to answer c.smith's question.

Anyway, interesting discussion we have here. Haribol. ~BYS~

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
10 June 2006, 03:13 PM
namaste Csmith,
If I were you, I would read the ISKCON stuff but then explore the hindu view points as well. Go to a library and pick up some books written by some indian authors. ISKCON view of 'all is krshna' is the same as the christian view of 'if you don't accpet jesus you are doomed' this is not the hindu view. If you are interested in hinduism look in the right places.

ISKCONites do not identify themselves as hindus (well some do when it is convienent for them)!

Agreed. I find many of the rituals such as the aartis, chanting, etc. useful and valuable. However, I believe some of the philosophy is more counter-productive than what it is aiming at producing. I don't believe one pursuing a spritual path needs to hear a constant sales pitch of "keep chanting...just focus on krishna...no alcohol, sex, gambling, etc." Reminds me of the Christian mantra of drugs and rock-and-roll music. Anyone pursuing a spiritual path obviously needs some kind of a positive foundation and a belief system about what is good and bad for you. However, nodoby needs a constant sales pitch of thou and thou shalt not. Likewise, I understand what their four regulative principles are and that the chanting and Krishna aartis are a big part of their belief system. Regardless, in my experiences this is pretty much all they ever discuss. After people have heard hundreds of lectures about the same thing, they pretty much get tired of it and look for something else. I would recommend that C.Smith "shop around" and try out many Hindu schools before just jumping into the first one (in this case ISKCON). ~BYS~

Sudarshan
10 June 2006, 03:22 PM
Very true. Most don't see the difference. However, those who understand Visnu-tattva more completely, do. Visnu is Krsna "working".

The relitives and friends of a famous actor know who he is behind the costum--they know how others see him as well. They also appreciate him in his different roles, but have a particular preferance to see him in his more personal feature, as their friend, son, or lover. Can you be a friend, parent, or lover to Visnu? No. Visnu relationship is dasya-rasa only.

Others who are in awe and reverence see him according to their relationship, but its not the only relationship, and not the one that brings him the most pleasure and satisfaction.

It is a preference of rasa.

Is there any pramANA for the concept of rasa? Can you trace this to the canonical upanishads or Bhagavad Gita?

It is a thorough misunderstanding that Vishnu relationship is dasya rasa only. What is the proof for this? One can love Vishnu, one can treat him as friend etc. Infact, I treat Vishnu only as friend and not as master - are you suggesting that my friendship would be turned down unless it is towards Krishna?

Srivaishnavism says that the soul is of the nature of pure consciousness, and is omniscient like Bhagavan. It lacks nothing and can enjoy anything it wants. There are no limitations in mukti, which means it can enjoy any rasa. The seSha-seShi bhava is only to show that the soul dervies its power from God and it does not mean any master-slave relationship.

Sudarshan
10 June 2006, 03:28 PM
Agreed. I find many of the rituals such as the aartis, chanting, etc. useful and valuable. However, I believe some of the philosophy is more counter-productive than what it is aiming at producing. I don't believe one pursuing a spritual path needs to hear a constant sales pitch of "keep chanting...just focus on krishna...no alcohol, sex, gambling, etc." Reminds me of the Christian mantra of drugs and rock-and-roll music. Anyone pursuing a spiritual path obviously needs some kind of a positive foundation and a belief system about what is good and bad for you. However, nodoby needs a constant sales pitch of thou and thou shalt not. Likewise, I understand what their four regulative principles are and that the chanting and Krishna aartis are a big part of their belief system. Regardless, in my experiences this is pretty much all they ever discuss. After people have heard hundreds of lectures about the same thing, they pretty much get tired of it and look for something else. I would recommend that C.Smith "shop around" and try out many Hindu schools before just jumping into the first one (in this case ISKCON). ~BYS~

My issues with ISKCON are purely with its somewhat unorthodox philosophical position. But it is a highly spiritual one as far as I can see, and its insistance on good morals and strict Vaishnava discipline is commendable. People will follow discipline only when they are repeatedly encouraged - "chant,focus on Krishna, no alcohol, sex, gamling" etc are all good ones isnt' it?

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
10 June 2006, 03:30 PM
Anyway...God is not a Hindu, and neither are you.


It is odd that you say that when in a previous post, you mentioned that Shiva is a Vaishnava which is highly offensive to the over 100 million Shaivites in the world. Since Vaishnavism is a Hindu school, you are at least stating that Shiva, an avatar of God, is a Hindu yet now you say God is not a Hindu. I would try to keep some sort of consistency. Logic tells me that God or any form of God is not limited to the schools of mankind many of which are man-made to begin with.



Furthermore, the books that ISKCON devotees study, are written by an "Indian" author. He is my diksa guru for over 30 years. Where do you get your information?


You must be referring to Prabhupada. So you must have met him in his last years. That is interesting. That must have a profound impact on your life. It is certainly not every day that someone shows up from India on a ship with virtually no money and ends up creating thousands of temples and translating/writing hundreds of books.

As to Satay's remark, I believe he was referring to what it feels like when getting pitched by many ISKCONites about their beliefs but he can explain himself. It is my opinion also that often the way ISKCON preachers push "Krishna" it sounds very similar to the way Christian preachers push "Jesus."



Did I offend you in some way? I was simply having a nice discussion with Csmith. I apologize if my words so deeply offended you. Hare Krsna.

I hate to say it, but it sounded more like preaching than a discussion. ~BYS~

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
10 June 2006, 03:36 PM
Bhava dasa, you keep repeating yourself without backing up anything you say with scriptures. Please understand that Hindus do not accept Krishna as higher than Vishnu. Prabhupada said that ISKCON is not a Hindu organization so you shouldn't be telling Hindus what to believe when you are believing in something that is not Hindu. ~BYS~

c.smith
14 June 2006, 11:31 AM
Whoa - the heated debate around all of this doesn't answer my original queries. Should I start another thread or will someone step up to the plate and offer some insight? I value all opinion.

Regards,

Clay

Singhi Kaya
14 June 2006, 12:30 PM
Whoa - the heated debate around all of this doesn't answer my original queries. Should I start another thread or will someone step up to the plate and offer some insight? I value all opinion.

Regards,

Clay

I think your question has been answered by some, but you have to search through the posts:)