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soham3
24 January 2008, 01:50 AM
Vigyana Bhairava Tantra contradicts with the upanishads when it says that inhalation sound is 'HAM' & exhalation sound is 'SO'. Upanishads say that the inhalation sound is 'SO' & exhalation sound is 'HAM'.

sarabhanga
24 January 2008, 06:21 AM
Namaste Soham,

According to the dhyAna bindu upaniSad:


hakAreNa bahiryAti sakAreNa vishetpunaH
haMsahaMsetyamaM mantraM jIvo japati sarvadA
shatAni SaTdivArAtraM sahasrANekaviMshatiH

And, following a citation by kshemarAja (a student of abhinavagupta), the following variation (with sakAra and hakAra reversed) is sometimes included in the vijñAnabhairava:


sakAreNa bahiryAti hakAreNa vishetpunaH
haMsahaMsetyamaM mantraM jIvo japati nityashaH
SaTshatAni divArAtrau sahasrANyekaviMshatiH

You have brought out a very interesting point. Although I am not sure how kAshmIra shaiva thinking might justify such an alteration.

Agnideva
24 January 2008, 02:50 PM
Namaste Soham,

What you bring up is an interesting point. From my limited understanding, there is a difference between the Vedantic and Tantric traditions with regards to the Ajapa (unchanted) Mantra (a.k.a. Ajapa Gayatri or Hamsa Gayatri, etc.).

In the Vedantic tradition, the ajapa mantra is So-Ham, where So is the sound of in-breath and Ham is the sound of out-breath. Together it is: Soham.

In the Tantric tradition, the ajapa mantra is Ham-Sa, where Ham is the sound of in-breath, and Sa is the sound of the out-breath. Together it is: Hamsa.

Both traditions use the terms Soham and Hamsa interchangeably without reversing the order of what the sounds stand for. And, both traditions accept that all mantras ride on the Hamsa (note that Gayatri Devi is usually depicted riding on Hamsa, swan).

The way I have seen it put together is:

So-Ham indicates I am He
Ham-Sa indicates I am She
So-Ham indicates involution
Ham-Sa indicates evolution

Together, Soham—Hamsa indicates I am Shiva, I am Shakti; and indeed that I am Brahman (Aham Brahmasmi).

Aum Namah Shivaya.

yajvan
24 January 2008, 06:24 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Vigyana Bhairava Tantra contradicts with the upanishads when it says that inhalation sound is 'HAM' & exhalation sound is 'SO'. Upanishads say that the inhalation sound is 'SO' & exhalation sound is 'HAM'.

Namaste soham,

you are referring to kārikā 24, the very first instruction of Sri Bhairava to pārvatī if I am not mistaken.

Yes, I too have noticed this difference, yet in practice I find it successful. The notion is taking the breath from the heart to dvādaśānta, then back again in reverse order. Key will be the pause, some call this kumbhaka and is reviewed in a few more kārikās of 26 and 27.

For kumbhaka¹ , sometimes it is full of air, sometimes completely empty i.e. recitā sati prāna-śakti - kumbhitā. And what is to occur with this? śāntḥ nāmāsau.

pranams

1. kumbhaka is also seen in other writings. One I refer to is The Yoga Vaṣisṭha, Chapt 6.1.25.
1a. kumbhaka is considered a pot. Some note it as a 'measure'. Another proper view is the suspension of breath, like a pot the suspension can be with the pot completely filled or completely empty. For the sadhu this may be part of pranayam.

sarabhanga
24 January 2008, 07:38 PM
Namaste,

sakAreNa bahiryAti hakAreNa vishetpunaH is only known from the commentary of kshemarAja (10th century AD), and it does not appear in the vijñAnabhairava (c. 7th century AD), which reads (from shloka 155):


asyAmanucarantiSThanmahAnandamaye'dhvare
tayA devyA samAviSTaH paraM bhairavamApnuyAt
SaTshatAni divArAtrau sahasrANyekaviMshatiH

hakAreNa bahiryAti sakAreNa vishetpunaH is known from the dhyAnabindu upaniSad:


hakAreNa bahiryAti sakAreNa vishetpunaH
haMsahaMsetyamaM mantraM jIvo japati sarvadA
shatAni SaTdivArAtraM sahasrANyekaviMshatiH

And from the yogacUDAmaNi upaniSad:


hakAreNa bahiryAti sakAreNa vishetpunaH
haMsahaMsetyamuM matraM jIvo japati sarvadA
SaTshatAni divArAtrau sahasrANyekaviMshatiH

And from the yogashikhA upaniSad:


hakAreNa bahiryAti sakAreNa vishetpunaH
haMsahaMseti mantro'yaM sarvairjIvashca japyate
guruvAkyAtsuSumnAyAM viparIto bhavejjapaH
so'haMso'hamiti prokto mantrayogaH sa ucyate
pratItirmantrayogAcca jAyate pashcime pathi


The prANa goes out with hakAra and goes in with sakAra, and all beings naturally chant the mantra haMsahaMsa. This is chanted in the suSumna, after being taught by the guru in an inverted manner, and this chanting of so'haMso'ham is called mantrayoga.

This esoteric reversal is an essential concept of vedAnta, but the followers of abhinavagupta seem to have taken the advice literally, and the well known instruction has been reversed in their philosophy, and is now included as a fixture in their understanding of the vijñAnabhairava ~ which is taken by kAshmIra parAdvaitavAda as a veritable upaniSad.

parAdvaitavAda has always struck me as somehow inverted from true advaita vedAnta, and this complete reversal of the upaniSad is the perfect example!

There is no problem with explaining the inner transformation, but to take the sacred text and reverse it, and then present the inverted lines to the world as scripture, without mentioning the original source of the lines, and to then consider the altered text as an alternative upaniSad, seems to have gone beyond the pale.

soham3
28 January 2008, 01:36 AM
hakAreNa bahiryAti



I think it should be ' HAMKARENA BAHIRYATI '.

sarabhanga
09 February 2008, 12:49 AM
I think it should be ' HAMKARENA BAHIRYATI '.

Namaste Soham,

The dhyAnabindu upaniSad, the yogacUDAmaNi upaniSad, and the yogashikhA upaniSad, and the commentary of shrI kshemarAja, all suggest hakAreNa.

MahaHrada
09 February 2008, 11:40 AM
There is no problem with explaining the inner transformation, but to take the sacred text and reverse it, and then present the inverted lines to the world as scripture, without mentioning the original source of the lines, and to then consider the altered text as an alternative upaniSad, seems to have gone beyond the pale.

Namaste Sarabhanga

I like to add that the text is considered part of the Rudrayamala and therefore it is not a property of but beyond the pale of so called "Kashmir shaivaism", and open to other commentaries, indeed this text was adapted to fit into their teachings, parts that didn´t fit were simply made to fit by force, modern translations based on these teachings are even sometimes twisting the sanskrit considerably and must therefore be read with a grain of salt.

(see also my commentary to some verses of Vijnana Bhairava)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2342

Whether these commentaries and translations where made to deliberately delude and throw dust in the eyes of the non initiated, or are meant as serious interpretations is beyond my knowledge, but hakara is shiva and associated with exhalation and sakara shakti and associated with inhalation, not only from the viewpoint of the upanishads but that is the viewpoint of the agamas or tantras also, stating it otherwise would be misleading.

And again - i already wrote that in my other posting- it is not meant that alone by awareness of the ending points of the physical breath that someone can reach the state of Bhairava/i, as the kashmir shaiva commentaries seem to suggest, this is a misleading idea, it is like you wrote(citing the yogasikhaupanishad)- the important dharana is the awareness of the inner, the subtle breath, the prana in the sushumna, our life force- which provides the carrier, or a structure or "body" for the atman, when actual awareness of this relation dawns, (between breath-prana- jiva -atman- shiva) which can happen only by the descent of the anugraha of shiva, devi or guru, indeed than by watching this "breath" it may lead one jiva gradually to the awareness of the self in a state of sameness with bhairava or bhairavi.


Mahahradanath

Znanna
09 February 2008, 04:02 PM
Namaste,

There is a way of breathing, which balances ... one is inhaling and exhaling at the same time, there is no difference, it is all Flow.

Perhaps there is no contradiction; how can there be if there is nothing to oppose?


ZN

MahaHrada
09 February 2008, 04:46 PM
Namaste Znanna

Maybe you are a protozoa? It is impossible for human beings and other mammalians to breath in and out at the same time. Breathing is always consecutive in our genus and related species.
Mahahradanatha

sarabhanga
09 February 2008, 05:31 PM
Maybe you are a protozoa? It is impossible for human beings and other mammalians to breath in and out at the same time. Breathing is always consecutive in our genus and related species.

Namaste Mahahradanatha,

Perhaps circular breathing comes close, with air moving simultaneously in (through the twin nostrils) and out (through the one mouth).


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41896000/jpg/_41896136_afp_didgeridoo416.jpg

MahaHrada
10 February 2008, 06:13 AM
Namaste Sarabhanga

Yes you are right thats the only possibble way - one can breathe out the remnants of air containend in the cheeks through the mouth and still be inhaling. But i doubt that it has much impact on the topic:)
Mahahradanatha

sarabhanga
10 February 2008, 06:57 AM
But i doubt that it has much impact on the topic.

Have you tried playing a didgeridoo (simply maintaining a constant drone) for an extended period? :)

MahaHrada
10 February 2008, 08:04 AM
Have you tried playing a didgeridoo (simply maintaining a constant drone) for an extended period? :)

yes - due to a curious twist of fate-my uncle immigrated to australia around 1940ies - my family already was in the possesion of an ancient didgeridoo before i was born, thats why i became acquainted with it at an very early age and used to toy around with it for quite awhile, but this experience does not convince me of the fact that it is correct that sakara changes into the outbreath and hakara into the inbreath, or that it is possible to breath in through the left nostril while breathing out through the right nostril at the same time. :) Both ideas are ridiculous.

There is one exchange which is important and it has to do with the different meanings the words prana and apana can have besides meaning inbreath and outbreath it may denote 2 main varieties of the bioenergy, here Prana can become associated with Shiva and the upper region of the body and the brain and Apana with shakti and the lower region of the body and the muladhara chakra.
But in this case the term Prana will denote the bioenergy associated with both inbreath and outbreath, and apana the bioenergy associated with excretion.

Mahahradanatha

sarabhanga
11 February 2008, 05:11 AM
Namaste Mahahrada,

apAna is the “vital air” that goes downwards or outwards, while prANa is the “vital air” that goes upwards or inwards. prANa is the inhalation or inspiration, while apAna is the exhalation or expiration. And hakAra indicates prANa and shiva, while sakAra indicates apAna and shakti.

Playing the didgeridoo has significant parallels with prANAyAma and yoga, but the process is reversed, seeking diverse creation rather than singular abstraction, conjuring manifestation rather than resolving it back to the source. And in this case, the didgeridoo itself is the suSumnA. ;)

MahaHrada
11 February 2008, 06:41 AM
Namaste Mahahrada,

apAna is the “vital air” that goes downwards or outwards, while prANa is the “vital air” that goes upwards or inwards. prANa is the inhalation or inspiration, while apAna is the exhalation or expiration. And hakAra indicates prANa and shiva, while sakAra indicates apAna and shakti.

Playing the didgeridoo has significant parallels with prANAyAma and yoga, but the process is reversed, seeking diverse creation rather than singular abstraction, conjuring manifestation rather than resolving it back to the source. And in this case, the didgeridoo itself is the suSumnA. ;)

Namaste Sarabhanga,

One must discern when interpreting text like the Vijnana Bhairava whether with Apana is meant the general bioenergy that excretes stuff from the body or just one of the functions of apana i.e. excretion of carbon dioxide via the outbreath.

The natural tendency of apana is to move downwards- causing the excretion of bodily excrements through the lower openings, the natural tendency of prana is to gather in the upper part of the body.

It makes a difference whether Pranyama is understood solely as a control of physical breath or as a control of bioenergy.
If the yoga shastras talk about moving the apana upwards and the prana downwards it is more than a description of the process of breathing but itmay mean a combination of breath bandhas and kriyas that move the pranas in the body.
This is not accounted for in the available commentaries.

I only knew a few aboriginals, when i was in australia but they seemend very unique and differnt from the Yogi, i also did not take part in their religious life, and i also have received no aboriginal -diksha, so i can´t comment on the similarity of the didgeridoo to the sushumna.
Whether they know, or are even intersted in anything like "diverse creation rather than singular abstraction, conjuring manifestation rather than resolving it back" is beyond my knowledge also.
I am rather simple person .
Mahahradanatha

MahaHrada
11 February 2008, 09:42 AM
Goodbye
Namaste Sarabhanga
I am sorry but i strictly follow the rule to only comment on things i have some practical knowledge of, why pretend to know things or appear to be someone one is not?

Mahahradanatha

sarabhanga
12 February 2008, 03:39 AM
i strictly follow the rule to only comment on things i have some practical knowledge of.
why pretend to know things or appear to be someone one is not?

The shaÑkhA of nArAyaNa is his sakthi, which creates by its spandanam, which is pure prANa, exhaled and descending (rather than inhaled and ascending, as it appears in the normal context of mortal breathing).

For nAra, hakAra is the incoming breath and sakAra is the outgoing breath; but for nArAyaNa the situation is reversed.




If the yoga shastras talk about moving the apana upwards and the prana downwards it is more than a description of the process of breathing but it may mean a combination of breath bandhas and kriyas that move the pranas in the body.

This is not accounted for in the available commentaries.

But playing a didgeridoo (or a shaÑkhA, which is exactly equivalent) provides an explanation for the process of prANAyAma and the apparent anomaly of reversing the breaths.