Caste System [Archive] - Hindu Dharma Forums

satay

28 January 2008, 01:30 PM

Namaskar!

Namaste Soul,

Please realize that the WHOLE WESTERN WORLD and many Indians themselves are incredibly IGNORANT and frankly stupid when it comes to the Caste System of India. This series of videos is yet another example of the malicious attack on India/Hinduism and her society.

All men are NOT created equal. If everyone had unity consciousness there would be no caste etc. Remember, caste/class in India is determined by education and cultured behavior! Whereas in the West, class is determined by wealth. Quoting the scriptures and alluding to them when talking about the Caste System makes NO sense because the equality, Brahman, talked about there refers to one's true nature; NOT their 'normal' self. Of course at a deeper level everyTHING is the same, not just people, but try telling that to the so-called 'scholars' of the west. Even so, one's karma & vasanas from previous lives determine how, where, and when you are born.

Subham.

I agree with your post. Many times it is the indians themselves causing this negative propaganda.

Have you see the movie 'water'? It was only here on HDF that I discovered that the quotes from 'Manu smriti' in the beginning of the movie were wrong translations. How a peson viewing this movie supposed to know that unless they go digging into and researching it?

I saw one of the videos partly, what's so interesting about them, I don't know.

Dalits have been crying foul since independence, and western media has nothing else to focus on but social problems of other countries, epsecially india. However, I digress, I don't want to get into the caste/jati/western media/dalit propaganda argument yet once again.

yajvan

28 January 2008, 03:19 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Soul,

Please realize that the WHOLE WESTERN WORLD and many Indians themselves are incredibly IGNORANT and frankly stupid when it comes to the Caste System of India. This series of videos is yet another example of the malicious attack on India/Hinduism and her society.

All men are NOT created equal. If everyone had unity consciousness there would be no caste etc. Remember, caste/class in India is determined by education and cultured behavior! Whereas in the West, class is determined by wealth. Quoting the scriptures and alluding to them when talking about the Caste System makes NO sense because the equality, Brahman, talked about there refers to one's true nature; NOT their 'normal' self. Of course at a deeper level everyTHING is the same, not just people, but try telling that to the so-called 'scholars' of the west. Even so, one's karma & vasanas from previous lives determine how, where, and when you are born.

Subham.

Namaste TTA

This notion of all being equal does have deeper significance and IMHO that was where Soul was pointing to... I will let her speak for herself on this matter. You also alluded to this in your post. Yet if the scholars do not know this, then that is okay too. Why so? This revelation is svatasiddha or self proved, that of the SELF or Atman. The scholars may find the definiton is in a book but not the experieince.

Another POV on equality: the vasanas and karma offered... it too is an equal opportunity employer. If you are born you are a recepitant of these vasanas, like everyone else, equal. You do not get a pass on these offerings. Could you have more or less? Could be, I do not know how to measure it, but you get them just the same. The 'density' I think is of little concern ( for me).

And as I view it this 'all being equal' has great significance.. As all are an expression of the SELF, anything else is transitory. Does that mean less important? That is a matter of values.

In the USA when one says All are equal it is the notion that all have an equal opportunity to excel, that is what's equal. There are no kings or queens in the USA by birth or even anointed. Now what wishes to excel at is a different matter.

It seems to me that before one considers the SELF as paramont all things look and feel un-equal, and that is the true nature of ignorance ... Not that I cannot calculate the square root of 10, but that I have ignored my status in this world, in this space and time as a being.

Thanks for bringing up this POV. Am I the final authority on this matter. Absolutely not. But as I observe, listen, learn it seems to be the case from my eyes.

pranams

Bob G

28 January 2008, 03:25 PM

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 04:57 PM

Hello TatTvamAsi,

"Remember, caste/class in India is determined by education and cultured behavior!"

I think we may have to more or less throw out "education" unless you are speaking of spiritual sciences. (as in the yogas and or universal spiritual laws and practice) Remember how well many of the nazis, as just one example - were educated?

Bob,

Your reference to the Nazis have NO pertinence to India or Hindu culture. Just because Hitler misinterpreted the term Aryan and used the Swastika does not make him a Hindu. I think you misunderstood my statement.

What I meant was in India, to be considered 'rich', one has to be highly educated and/or lead a virtuous life (aka. in the 'spiritual' sciences as you call it). Meaning, a 'high class' person in India is determined from his birth, character, demeanor, and action; NOT his financial status. However in the West, rich people are worshipped and educated people are ridiculed (as prophecied in the Puranas) by being labeled as 'nerds'/'geeks' etc. In fact, I believe in the West, education holds no value in society as people with money are held up high and those who don't are ill-treated, regardless of their education and background.

I am not sure what you meant by 'throw out the word 'educated'? Most Indians who emigrated to the US in the 60's & 70's were Brahmins because of the discrimination they faced (still face) in their own country due to the Dalits running the govt. and setting up the ridiculous 'reservation system' akin to the Catholic Schools in the West do. I did not mean just 'spiritual sciences' or learning the Vedas as most of the successful (again, not just wealth wise) Indians in the last 100 years have predominantly been Brahmins; including two Nobel-prize winners in Physics!

In reference to the Caste System, Brahmins were endowed with not only learning the Vedas, but all types of knowledge; hence most of the brilliant Indians even in the modern era were/are Brahmins. Of course there are exceptions here and there but that is not the rule. In fact, most people from the later part of the 19th Century who were appointed in the top posts by the British govt. in India (based on the ICS) were Brahmins. The reason the other sectors of society were kept aloof is that their strengths vary; for example, a farmer's son will most likely succeed in farming. A Brahmin's son usually became a priest or 'teacher' of some sort. I believe I've explained the Caste System in another post on this Forum. If you do a search you can read it.

And "Cultured" may be rather difficult to agree upon although I follow your drift. For instance the totally erotic (and that is putting it very mildly!) carvings displayed on certain temples in India. Also, various cultures often follow the idea of "mother of invention" needs that arise in different areas of the world. And there are battlefields where many lives are lost...not a Jain practice at all as far as I know, but it is a Hindu one. (and countless other examples)

I use the saying that: a True Lord (or king) does not lord it over on anyone.

Om

I'm afraid you simply don't understand the meaning of 'cultured' and cultured behavior. In fact, one who is an "Aryan" is of noble birth, character, and action! This refers to cultured behavior, demeanor upbringing and background. Your example of the 'idols on the temple walls' makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.

The Dalits and other unwanted elements of society are descendants of murderers, rapists, dacoits, and other criminals. That doesn't make them criminals, but their prediliction to commit sin is far greater than one who is of noble or 'higher' birth, such as a Brahmin. The West, especially the US, will neither understand nor accept this as legitimate due to their own ancestry using the facade of equality etc.

Subham.

Nuno Matos

28 January 2008, 05:07 PM

Namaste Bob

Caste is different from class. Class is a scientific denomination used for example in Biology and in Sociology works.
Caste is a denomination invented by the Portuguese when they arrived in India and is more affective than descriptive as the Indians wore compared each other in accordance or as metaphor to Vine plants. Like a Periquita or a Tinto Ruriz which are different vine plants making different wines;). Portuguese do like Wine but that bellongs to another tread or forum.

And Varna is not caste and is not class.

Soul

28 January 2008, 05:47 PM

Namaste Soul,

Please realize that the WHOLE WESTERN WORLD and many Indians themselves are incredibly IGNORANT and frankly stupid when it comes to the Caste System of India. This series of videos is yet another example of the malicious attack on India/Hinduism and her society.

All men are NOT created equal. If everyone had unity consciousness there would be no caste etc. Remember, caste/class in India is determined by education and cultured behavior! Whereas in the West, class is determined by wealth. Quoting the scriptures and alluding to them when talking about the Caste System makes NO sense because the equality, Brahman, talked about there refers to one's true nature; NOT their 'normal' self. Of course at a deeper level everyTHING is the same, not just people, but try telling that to the so-called 'scholars' of the west. Even so, one's karma & vasanas from previous lives determine how, where, and when you are born.

Subham.

Is there something you don't want to face ?

True nature IS expressed in the "normal " self... That is when 'you' are living as Oneness....

May all wake up... to it's and everyones true and only nature...
There is not this nature and that nature... to think so is living in duality...

Many scholars with no practical application to the teachings....

What use is scriptual knowledge if it is not LIVED?

Hari Om,
All is Om,

Soul

sarabhanga

28 January 2008, 06:21 PM

Caste system had been created with good intentions. It had then been foreseen that it would degenerate in course of time in that brahmins & kshatriyas would get corrupted and women, vaishyas, shudras & eunuchs would evolve. Finally eunuchs would rule the world and see its end & destruction. As per the caste system, a most hopeless brahmin is higher than a shudra having 8 siddhis & 9 nidhis.

The “caste system” (varNAshrama dharma) was established very long ago. Indeed, it is intrinsic to Arya society. The whole picture is far more complex than anything I have mentioned in other threads, with a matrix of perfect relationships and actions that enters into all aspects of life. The rules were not arbitrarily defined by some greedy priest or despotic self-appointed king, but they arose from divine principles, natural necessity, and long practice, as clearly the best practice for the greatest good. And they have been collected in various smRti texts.

For thousands of years, the majority of Hindu society followed the system without question, so that (despite rivalry between kshatriya princes for kingship, and between brAhmaNa priests over doctrine, and between vaishya families in business) the juggernaut moved smoothly onwards barely noticing any interference.

This has been described as a social “inertia”, mainly by those who have wanted to change or control Hindu society. When the system is operating correctly, any problem should be quickly noticed and solved; and even if the apparent king was deposed or the apparent high priests were converted or killed, the culture would continue fundamentally the same. And when muslims, and later christians, attempted to control Hindu society according to their own rules they found it enormously difficult.

The ONLY way that the Hindu population could be won over was to destroy the “caste system” and thus diminish the impossible resilience to outside interference shown by Arya culture. And so the misinformation and vilification campaign began. And now, a few hundred years later, the original pattern is largely forgotten, and it is generally assumed that varNa is simply a birth-right with no obligations.

The above quote from Soham is a perfect example of the propaganda: Despite initial good intentions, the brAhmaNa and kshatriya castes are now corrupted, and when ‘eunuchs’ (i.e. saMnyAsins) rule the world then it will be destroyed.

As per the caste system, a most hopeless brahmin is higher than a shudra having 8 siddhis & 9 nidhis.

In truth, a truly hopeless “brAhmaNa” is lower than a shUdra, and a “shUdra” who is truly siddha is an avadhUta!

Soul

28 January 2008, 06:34 PM

The “caste system” (varNAshrama dharma) was established very long ago. Indeed, it is intrinsic to Arya society. The whole picture is far more complex than anything I have mentioned in other threads, with a matrix of perfect relationships and actions that enters into all aspects of life. The rules were not arbitrarily defined by some greedy priest or despotic self-appointed king, but they arose from divine principles, natural necessity, and long practice, as clearly the best practice for the greatest good. And they have been collected in various smRti texts.

For thousands of years, the majority of Hindu society followed the system without question, so that (despite rivalry between kshatriya princes for kingship, and between brAhmaNa priests over doctrine, and between vaishya families in business) the juggernaut moved smoothly onwards barely noticing any interference.

Namaste,

Sarabhanga, thanks for you reply , and also everyone else for your thoughts....

Seems like it has become an unconscious habit ( the caste system that is).... One that many lower caste people themselves want to be rid of.
They want to be treated with equality and given the same opportunities that others have...

Like all unconscious habits, they must be bought into awareness so that light is shed and the suffering can pass...

I see that this problem (the caste system) which Mahatma Gandhi tried to abolish, and there is a big movement to abolish coming from the lower caste people themselves,needs to be bought into awareness of global citizens so as it may change...

To live as Oneness is to look upon all as equal....

To know scriptural knowledge is not enough....

To LIVE as Oneness is enough...

Peace,
Soul

Bob G

28 January 2008, 06:43 PM

Hello TatTvamAsi,

I'd like to try and come to an agreement on what the term caste means -spiritually and how it arose. (and if you will? in the broadest view and not only to Hindus...for in the spiritual sense it really applies to all Beings and realms, at least imo)

For instance: I feel that the following text is a key indicator of such as given in the T.T.C., chapter 25:

"....Man follows the ways of the Earth.
The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,
Heaven follows the ways of Tao,
Tao follows its own ways."

Btw., I said nothing about nazis being any of the things you mentioned
except for being educated in many ways. Surely you do not deny that?
Also, if a Brahmins knowledge is not based on and used per spiritual laws what is it worth and what should they then be called? Thus the name remains to be lived up to since any human being, including Brahmins can fall into temptation. (like we went on about on in another thread)

And as for "cultured", you are starting to give me a fuller definition with meanings like noble and virtue, yet even that would need to be further narrowed down if used just for Hindus...which was kinda my point for poking around at the word culture in my previous post.

See ya,

Om

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 06:54 PM

Is there something you don't want to face ?

True nature IS expressed in the "normal " self... That is when 'you' are living as Oneness....

May all wake up... to it's and everyones true and only nature...
There is not this nature and that nature... to think so is living in duality...

Many scholars with no practical application to the teachings....

What use is scriptual knowledge if it is not LIVED?

Hari Om,
All is Om,

Soul

This is the typical argument most 'people' who have read Vedanta use to argue the invalidity of Varnashrama Dharma. Lightly put, you're completely misled and consequently wrong. The fact is, in society today, people have certain characteristics and while those people 'wake up to their true nature' as you claim, society will be pretty much the same; externalized and ever so involved in self-indulgence and gratification of the senses. Therefore, people who are ignorant of their dharma in this life will try to manipulate the 'Caste System' to their benefit; both in terms of supporting it and denigrating it!

Something I don't want to face? What does that mean?

Also, the reason most Westerners have a torrid time with the Caste System is that as Soham stated, they themselves are of low birth and therefore not 'Arya'. The funny thing is like the woman in the video, many Westerners think that 'Dalits' are dark-skinned Indians who are discriminated against because of their looks. This is nothing but pure propagandization by the West. However, it is partly true in the superficial stratum of Indian society however that is not the basis of keeping them separate. It is your ancestry, birth, lifestyle, character, demeanor, and actions, that determine if you are an Aryan!

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 07:00 PM

The ONLY way that the Hindu population could be won over was to destroy the �caste system� and thus diminish the impossible resilience to outside interference shown by Arya culture. And so the misinformation and vilification campaign began. And now, a few hundred years later, the original pattern is largely forgotten, and it is generally assumed that varNa is simply a birth-right with no obligations.

Well said.

�eunuchs� (i.e. saMnyAsins) rule the world then it will be destroyed.

how does 'eunuch' translate to sanyasin? LOL.

In truth, a truly hopeless �brAhmaNa� is lower than a shUdra, and a �shUdra� who is truly siddha is an avadhUta!

we all know how often that is the case! ;)

To be fair, there have been people of 'low birth' who have attained self-realization however it is a real rarity. The overriding guna for people in lower births are rajas & tamas whereas most Brahmins are (were?) Sattvic in nature.

Subham.

yajvan

28 January 2008, 07:10 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

From the Chandogya Upanishad (4.1)

Satyakama (one desiring satyam, lover of Truth) decides it's time to approach a guru for more knowledge and advance his learning. Before doing so he will be asked about his lineage. To this he goes to his mother, Jabala, to find out the particulars of his birth.

Jabala says Satyakama, I do not know who you father is. As a maid servant (not dasi) I went from house to house. Hence I do not know your gotra (lineage), nor your correct father. Hence when you announce yourself the best you can say is you are Satyakama Jabala.

With his intention, he approaches the gurukulam of Gautama, the guru of the ashram and says, Sir, I wish to live as brahmacharin under you.

Gautama asks of his lineage. Satykama is straightforward and says he does not know and explains his mother's maid servant conditions. He finishes by saying, Revered Sir, can I , Satyakama Jabala, being such, may I approach you as a sisya (a student)?

Gautama says, non other then a brahmana can say as you have. You did not deviate from the truth. Bring the samit (or the fuel) for the yajya.

Gautama accepts him based on his straightforwardness and truthfulness.
Brahmana's alone, by convention, had the right to learn the Veda's. Yet to the straightforward and truthful, varna should not be a barrier.

pranams

sarabhanga

28 January 2008, 07:32 PM

In the USA when one says All are equal it is the notion that all have an equal opportunity to excel, that is what's equal. There are no kings or queens in the USA by birth or even anointed. Now what wishes to excel at is a different matter.

Namaste Yajvan,

The difference is that in the USA every individual strives for personal excellence for the good of themselves, and it is assumed that the society (on average) will be raised to a greater level of prosperity and benefit (at least for a few generations). Whereas, in the Aryan system, every individual follows his/her own true dharma perfectly, with all parts subtly informing and supporting the whole, and with all significant actions performed to the best of one�s abilities but without any doubt, and it is equally assumed that the whole society will be raised to the greatest prosperity and benefit (forever).

In traditional Hindu society, most individuals really have little idea of why they do certain things or think in particular ways, they simply do. It was taught to them by their mother and their father (and all older relatives), and their teachers and gurus and priests, and their scriptures and mythologies, but very few know the whole story. And even most saMnyAsins can�t explain (and don�t really care) why, other than �guruvAkyA!� or �maryAdA!�.

Everyone plays their part, but the final roles are certainly not fixed by the name given to them in infancy. And the end result (if the system is allowed to flourish) is something truly amazing. And that was what attracted all foreign invaders in the first place! They wanted to control it for themselves.

Nuno Matos

28 January 2008, 07:38 PM

Namaste Sarabhanga,

" The “caste system” (varNAshrama dharma) was established very long ago. Indeed, it is intrinsic to Arya society. The whole picture is far more complex than anything I have mentioned in other threads, with a matrix of perfect relationships and actions that enters into all aspects of life. The rules were not arbitrarily defined by some greedy priest or despotic self-appointed king, but they arose from divine principles, natural necessity, and long practice, as clearly the best practice for the greatest good. And they have been collected in various smRti texts. "

Before time was counted we wore all brAhmaNa as you have said some post's ago. And a shudra has no time since he only serves with no special obligations. Now what is an Avadhuta? As he is time himself!

" The rules were not arbitrarily defined by some greedy priest or despotic self-appointed king, but they arose from divine principles, natural necessity, and long practice, as clearly the best practice for the greatest good. And they have been collected in various smRti texts. "

Well the above is called division of work and not a social system of organization. What every body has been talking about is status and status as nothing to do with caste as invented by the Moslem and The Brit. A social system sounds like fascism or socialism or royalism or even demo liberalism.
So caste system should be called Manuism. A social/cultural engineering experience in a society were the elites wore mainly Buddhist.

sarabhanga

28 January 2008, 08:31 PM

All men are NOT created equal.

The overriding guna for people in lower births are rajas & tamas whereas most Brahmins are (were?) sattvic in nature.

Namaste TTA,

This kind of generalization provides ammunition against varNAshrama dharma!

Every jIva is equal, but every incarnation is different. And (given that there is no illness or disability) every child has similar potential. And then factors such as genetic inheritance, positive support (or negative influence) from family and community, chance meetings and insights (i.e. life in general), all affect the course and final destination.

It is only by the finished product that any creation can properly be named, appreciated or employed, and it is quite true to say that anyone proving themselves as vaishya is in the end a vaishya, with an excess of tamoguNa. And anyone proving themselves as a kshatriya is in the end a kshatriya, with an excess of rajoguNa. And anyone proving themselves as a brAhmaNa is in the end a brAhmaNa, with a fullness of sattvaguNa.

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 08:41 PM

Namaste TTA,

This kind of generalization provides ammunition against varNAshrama dharma!

Every jIva is equal, but every incarnation is different. And (given that there is no illness or disability) every child has similar potential. And then factors such as genetic inheritance, positive support (or negative influence) from family and community, chance meetings and insights (i.e. life in general), all affect the course and final destination.

It is only by the finished product that any creation can properly be named, appreciated or employed, and it is quite true to say that anyone proving themselves as vaishya is in the end a vaishya, with an excess of tamoguNa. And anyone proving themselves as a kshatriya is in the end a kshatriya, with an excess of rajoguNa. And anyone proving themselves as a brAhmaNa is in the end a brAhmaNa, with a fullness of sattvaguNa.

Namaste Sarabhanga,

I absolutely concur with what you have stated here with regards to the jIva being equal and the incarnations not. However, being born into a certain Varna does have an impact in the evolution of the soul. It cannot be looked upon from a 'one-life' point of view which is predominantly a Christian/Western point of view. For the jIvatmans that are trapped in Samsara, thousands if not millions of births have shaped the channel it follows. Each person is at a different level in their evolution of the soul. For example, hypothetically speaking, assume 4 people were born into the 4 different Varnas and all acted the same way throughout their lives; committing the same actions etc. At the end of their lives, would you say that all 4 are at the same level in terms of evolution of the soul? That is where I think one's Varna at birth comes into play as the soul chooses where, when, and how (human etc.) to be born and if it is at the right level, it chooses the appropriate Varna such as Brahmin, Kshatriya, etc. The punya accumulated in the previous births along with one's stage in the evolution of the soul determines which Varna is 'chosen'.

Subham.

vcindiana

28 January 2008, 08:45 PM

This is the typical argument most 'people' who have read Vedanta use to argue the invalidity of Varnashrama Dharma. Lightly put, you're completely misled and consequently wrong. The fact is, in society today, people have certain characteristics and while those people 'wake up to their true nature' as you claim, society will be pretty much the same; externalized and ever so involved in self-indulgence and gratification of the senses. Therefore, people who are ignorant of their dharma in this life will try to manipulate the 'Caste System' to their benefit; both in terms of supporting it and denigrating it!

Something I don't want to face? What does that mean?

Also, the reason most Westerners have a torrid time with the Caste System is that as Soham stated, they themselves are of low birth and therefore not 'Arya'. The funny thing is like the woman in the video, many Westerners think that 'Dalits' are dark-skinned Indians who are discriminated against because of their looks. This is nothing but pure propagandization by the West. However, it is partly true in the superficial stratum of Indian society however that is not the basis of keeping them separate. It is your ancestry, birth, lifestyle, character, demeanor, and actions, that determine if you are an Aryan!

I do not like to express my opinion on these most controversial discussions about caste system. But I am forced to write you that recent posts on this thread have hurt deeply most of the people on this forum. I sincerely hope Soham and TTA try to understand better before they can express their views. I have an adopted close relative who happened to be from so called “low birth” doing exceedingly good not only in academic but also in social career. Supposedly I was born to “hi birth’ (Is not’ that a joke) but I have learnt so much about life from this beautiful person. I can feel this person’s deep devotion and huge heart for the oppressed people. God did not make two categories of low and high birth human beings. It is great to quote verses from Geeta or other scriptures and push our ideologies on this forum. But we need to experience God in the muck of our daily life. Before one criticizes a person or a system, unless there is a good purpose one needs to be clear whether that would hurt the feeling of another person, that would amount to Himsa . Sarabanga has made it repeatedly clear that AHIMSA is fundamental to Hindu thought. As I understand Hindu thoughts push us to be ever conscious of our thoughts and expressions.
One other point. Do we know much about eunuchs? All I know is these are another category of suppressed people. Recently I visited a good friend of mine in Bangalore, dedicated in trying to rehabilitate some of these people. Do nt’you people think it is our “Dharma?” to uplift these people in the gutter?
Love………………………VC

soham3

28 January 2008, 09:35 PM

After Sri Rama returned to Ayodhya from 14 years of exile, he was to be coronated. At that time, one lady with a dead baby in her hands approached & taunted him that young babies die in his kingdom. Vasishtha told him that the real cause was the fact that a shudra by the name of Shambooka was doing penance. When an evil person engages himself in spiritual practices, effect on the society is negative. Sri Rama immediately went to Shambooka & killed him.

yajvan

28 January 2008, 09:39 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

assume 4 people were born into the 4 different Varnas and all acted the same way throughout their lives; committing the same actions etc. At the end of their lives, would you say that all 4 are at the same level in terms of evolution of the soul?

Namaste TTA (et.al)
I think for me, this is the crux of the position . There is no evolution of the soul, of the SELF. It is perfect from beginning to end, there is nothing for it to evolve to... That is the equality we ( perhaps me?) have been discussing. Each being on this good earth is perfect in Atman, of the SELF. This is where there is no difference - sarabhanga pointed to this a few posts up from here.

What lives you are afforded ( again and again) allow you the opportunity for you to unfold the SELF. It is thought that doing ones 'allotted duty' says Krsna, is the best way for one to unfold this SELF in a most rapid manner.

To know the world you forget the SELF, to know the SELF you forget the world... Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

sarabhanga

28 January 2008, 09:40 PM

The rules were not arbitrarily defined by some greedy priest or despotic self-appointed king, but they arose from divine principles, natural necessity, and long practice, as clearly the best practice for the greatest good. And they have been collected in various smRti texts.

Well the above is called division of work and not a social system of organization. What every body has been talking about is status and status as nothing to do with caste as invented by the Moslem and The Brit. A social system sounds like fascism or socialism or royalism or even demo liberalism.

So caste system should be called Manuism. A social/cultural engineering experience in a society were the elites wore mainly Buddhist.

Namaste Nuno,

I don�t particularly care what people call it in english, but the sanskrit term is varNAshramadharma. And as dharma on earth it began as a pact between RSi and brahman, which became a pact between kshatriya and brAhmaNa, which was extended to include the vaishya, and then the shUdra. And in the beginning, both varNa and Ashrama were three-fold rather than four-fold.

The fourth varNa and fourth Ashrama arose with the upaniSad revelations (c. 1,000 BC) and the �social elites� were (in general) not buddhists until seven or eight centuries later!

When AryaHindu or kRSTi already exist in saMskRtam, and all such individuals are assumed to have descended from manu and are known as mAnuSa, as common terms we already have �Aryan�, �kRSTian�, �mAnuSyan�, or �Hindu�, all with an original meaning of �following varNAshrama dharma�.

indianx

28 January 2008, 10:44 PM

sarabhanga

28 January 2008, 11:28 PM

Namaste TTA,

Your hypothetical suggestion of four people of different varNa acting exactly the same would immediately cause problems, since each one has a different dharma, and so only one of the four would be true to his own dharma (and be subsequently promoted) and the other three would have failed the course (and thus be demoted or sent back to repeat). Unless, of course, everyone followed the brAhmaNa course, which has four coordinated lifetimes in one, and if that perfect course is followed to completion, then any human may be raised to become a saint, whatever their previous births.

The avadhUta goes among the shUdra community, properly informing and naturally attracting them into the fold. And the saMnyAsin goes among the student or brahmacarya community. And the vAnaprasthin stays in hermitage, but the whole community seeks him out for wise advice and spiritual services. And the gRhasthin and brahmacarin have various reciprocal ties with the kshatriya community, which interrelations form the basis for the whole system.

Every brAhmaNa has the opportunity for liberation in one lifetime, and everyone else has the opportunity for entering into the brAhmaNa stream, if they are so inclined. Although it is generally assumed that a full life (from conception to death) must be passed as a brAhmaNa before liberation is guaranteed.

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 11:29 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste TTA (et.al)
I think for me, this is the crux of the position . There is no evolution of the soul, of the SELF. It is perfect from beginning to end, there is nothing for it to evolve to... That is the equality we ( perhaps me?) have been discussing. Each being on this good earth is perfect in Atman, of the SELF. This is where there is no difference - sarabhanga pointed to this a few posts up from here.

What lives you are afforded ( again and again) allow you the opportunity for you to unfold the SELF. It is thought that doing ones 'allotted duty' says Krsna, is the best way for one to unfold this SELF in a most rapid manner.

To know the world you forget the SELF, to know the SELF you forget the world... Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Namaste Yajvan,

You are absolutely correct in saying that the true paramatman is indeed the 'true' SELF or Brahman. However, when manifested, the jIva takes on an identity and becomes a jIvAtman. You can argue that from the first birth onwards is a devolution of the soul and hence karmA and ahamkArA attach themselves to the jIvAtman. I like to imagine the evolution of a soul (jIvAtman) as a parabolic curve; start high and end 'high'--meaning, start with Brahman and end with Brahman. Once Brahman manifests, it is a seemingly eternal cycle of births, deaths, transmigrations, and evolution of innumerable number of jIvAtmans until they are purely and FULLY in Turiya--merged back into the parabrahman. While in the 'period' through which manifestation occurs, there are differences, evolutions, etc. albeit having temporal reality; the illusion that this is permanent is indeed mAyA!

Subham.

Soul

28 January 2008, 11:42 PM

This is the typical argument most 'people' who have read Vedanta use to argue the invalidity of Varnashrama Dharma. Lightly put, you're completely misled and consequently wrong. The fact is, in society today, people have certain characteristics and while those people 'wake up to their true nature' as you claim, society will be pretty much the same; externalized and ever so involved in self-indulgence and gratification of the senses. Therefore, people who are ignorant of their dharma in this life will try to manipulate the 'Caste System' to their benefit; both in terms of supporting it and denigrating it!

Something I don't want to face? What does that mean?

Also, the reason most Westerners have a torrid time with the Caste System is that as Soham stated, they themselves are of low birth and therefore not 'Arya'. The funny thing is like the woman in the video, many Westerners think that 'Dalits' are dark-skinned Indians who are discriminated against because of their looks. This is nothing but pure propagandization by the West. However, it is partly true in the superficial stratum of Indian society however that is not the basis of keeping them separate. It is your ancestry, birth, lifestyle, character, demeanor, and actions, that determine if you are an Aryan!

Seems to me like many people use scriptures in the wrong way..to keep a system in place that is obviously stagnant... this system is obviously causing suffering for many... but not for those who don't have to empty higher caste peoples and priests toilets.

This is what I mean ... This fact doesn't want to be faced by many...

The lower caste people want equal rights, and it is also in their karma to fight for this.... and to speak out about any abuse.... All perfect....
It is Kali Yuga after all.... much injustice in this world....

As for me , I am not Hindu... nor do I call myself any religion or nationality.... all that doesn't at all describe the truth of who I am....

(btw I wonder why when I try to select a blank on my profile under religion, does it keep returning to Sanatana Dharma.... This is so limiting to me.... this is not who I am)

If people want to remain in ignorance.... you are free to do so... I feel the pain of those people when watching that vidoe and I know it will all change soon.... the whole caste system is on its way out....
Bless all the people who have to clean other peoples excrament.. you are the amazing ones.... The priests with all their rituals and intellectual knowledge don't impress me at all...

Neither do people wearing orange...

It's all identification with an image and trying to portray some image of being holy and pure... but inside they are rotten...

Who I really love is Kabir....

He got kicked out of Banares for speaking as I do now....

Love to All...
Soul

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 11:44 PM

Namaste Sarabhanga,

Unless, of course, everyone followed the brAhmaNa course

So are you saying that one need not be born as a brAhmaNa in order to 'follow the ... course"? Most rSis who have reached samadhi were brAhmaNas by birth AND lifestyle. Those who have reached samadhi just by lifestyle are a rarity!

then any human may be raised to become a saint, whatever their previous births.

Every brAhmaNa has the opportunity for liberation in one lifetime, and everyone else has the opportunity for entering into the brAhmaNa stream, if they are so inclined. Although it is generally assumed that a full life (from conception to death) must be passed as a brAhmaNa before liberation is guaranteed.

So when one from a 'lower' Varna enters the 'brAhmaNa stream', aren't they preparing to be born as a brAhmaNa in their next (few) birth(s)? Or are you saying that once they lead a Brahminical lifestyle, they are capable of becoming a brAhmaNa in this lifetime itself?

Continuing from above, those who have experienced unity consciousness and are not brAhmaNas have but a taste of the stupendous bliss. Those who are in sahajasamAdhi have almost always been brAhmaNas by birth AND lifestyle.

Subham.

TatTvamAsi

28 January 2008, 11:52 PM

The priests with all their rituals and intellectual knowledge don't impress me at all...

Neither do people wearing orange...

Don't you realize that those people were born to impress (people like) you? ;)

but inside they are rotten...

And how exactly do you know that?

Love to All...

God, this reminds me of the tree-hugging liberals in Berkeley. Tell me; are you voting for HELLary Clinton? :D

Subham.

soham3

28 January 2008, 11:58 PM

Do some of our members know what is meant by this or could expound on it?

When an evil person minds his own business, nothing bad happens to society. But when he does tapas & yoga, power generated by his spiritual practices fans out the evil in him to the outside world so as to cause death, disease & other dreadful effects.
The third world war is getting hastened because of so many evil people practising spiritual sadhana.

TatTvamAsi

29 January 2008, 12:06 AM

sarabhanga

29 January 2008, 12:13 AM

If people want to remain in ignorance, you are free to do so.

The whole caste system is on its way out.

The priests with all their rituals and intellectual knowledge don't impress me at all. Neither do people wearing orange. It's all trying to portray some image of being holy and pure, but inside they are rotten.

No comment.

http://in.geocities.com/sarabhanga/gaumukh.jpg

soham3

29 January 2008, 12:21 AM

Just curious, but how do we exactly classify someone as 'evil'? Or is everyone not a brAhmaNa an 'evil' person forbidden to perform tapasya?

Brahmins & kshatriyas can do tapas in all the 4 yugas. Women, vaishyas, shudras and eunuchs are not allowed spiritual practices in satya & treta yugas. In dwapara yuga, brahmin & kshatriya women and vaishyas are allowed to do tapas. All can do sadhana in kaliyuga but they are merely becoming instrumental for the world to end.

Soul

29 January 2008, 12:33 AM

Hi All,

The caste system is on it's way out:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gySY1r4CXkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwMx3FAN8qQ

May we all be honest about our rotten bits.. Sarabhanga, only you know the conditioning in yourself that needs to be seen and met, as I do mine....

It doesn't matter what clothes we wear or nationality or religion...

A priest who condones such treatment of any human being and sees a separation between himself and a "lower caste" or "untouchable" to me is living in great separation and illusion,no matter how much intellectual knowledge they may have... for the "untouchable " IS himself... IS the priest...

Love To All,
Soul

sm78

29 January 2008, 01:28 AM

Seems to me like many people use scriptures in the wrong way..to keep a system in place that is obviously stagnant... this system is obviously causing suffering for many... but not for those who don't have to empty higher caste peoples and priests toilets.

This is what I mean ... This fact doesn't want to be faced by many...

The lower caste people want equal rights, and it is also in their karma to fight for this.... and to speak out about any abuse.... All perfect....
It is Kali Yuga after all.... much injustice in this world....

As for me , I am not Hindu... nor do I call myself any religion or nationality.... all that doesn't at all describe the truth of who I am....

(btw I wonder why when I try to select a blank on my profile under religion, does it keep returning to Sanatana Dharma.... This is so limiting to me.... this is not who I am)

If people want to remain in ignorance.... you are free to do so... I feel the pain of those people when watching that vidoe and I know it will all change soon.... the whole caste system is on its way out....
Bless all the people who have to clean other peoples excrament.. you are the amazing ones.... The priests with all their rituals and intellectual knowledge don't impress me at all...

Neither do people wearing orange...

It's all identification with an image and trying to portray some image of being holy and pure... but inside they are rotten...

Who I really love is Kabir....

He got kicked out of Banares for speaking as I do now....

Love to All...
Soul

Very typical. I only don't see the phrase "white man's/woman's burden"...the rest is quite classic really.

Soul

29 January 2008, 01:32 AM

No comment.

http://in.geocities.com/sarabhanga/gaumukh.jpg

By the way... You look good in orange :)

sarabhanga

29 January 2008, 01:33 AM

sm78

29 January 2008, 01:37 AM

No comment.
:(

:(

Yes it is hard. But I thank u profusely for your explanations on this thread and else where on this topic. I greatly admire the fact of posting explanations in face of strong opposition which must often seem like "oblation over ash".

Teachers can only show the way and hope worthy students may find the goal. I hope at least a few of us found real benefit from your knowledge.

Finally, fate of Arya dharma (and thus entire humanity) on this planet is beyond our control and rests with shakti, as is all creation.

satay

29 January 2008, 01:51 AM

Namaste,

Dalits have been crying foul for 60 years. I don't know what they want from Indians. They get special treatments in schools, universities, gov't offices, what else do they want? Where others struggle to get a seat in medical and engineering schools even with 98%, dalits have been given quotas that can be filled 50% marks only. Look at the Indian gov't, where are the hindus? Sadly, hindus are a minority in their own country and now we must put up this nonsense of western propaganda 'abolish caste system'.

I for one will not give up my varna or my caste or my jati no matter how hard and how loud the propaganda machines try.

VarnaAsharm is here to stay and those who don't like it should look in their own backyard first before pointing fingers at Indians in general and at Hindus in particular.

And the comments about sanyasis are truly offensive and anti-hindu! Soul, you have been devoured by the western propaganda machine! I request you to edit your post...

This topic has been discussed here many times.

Hindus will not give up their castes let alone their varnashram, period. :(

Soul

29 January 2008, 01:58 AM

Namaste Soul,

If you have read any of my posts on the subject, it should be clear that �the caste system� today is a distorted shadow of what it should be, and I have clearly explained how and why that has come about. And rather than bowing to those who are entirely ignorant of true varNAshrama dharma and would follow the old anti-Hindu (and generally pro-buddhist or pro-christian) propaganda in suggesting that the whole thing should be discarded, I would prefer to go about properly informing the Hindu community regarding the true intentions and proper application of its principles. There is a perfect baby in the bath-water and those who are blind to its existence, or view it as an unfortunate mutation, would cast it down the drain!

And you clearly have NO idea of why a saMnyAsin actually wears an ochre cloth or of what that symbol implies in his own sAdhana, but it is certainly NOT intended for impressing others. I know that anyone can go to a store and purchase a similar cloth, simply to impress or to fool others, and many simple beggars disguise themselves as saMnyAsins either to improve their chances or just to get a free meal. But your comments are offensive to Hinduism, and certainly to all true saMnyAsins! :(

Namaste Sarabhanga...

That comment was not directed at you....
It was only a "generally speaking" comment.... Actually probably majority....

I see you as a sincere seeker...

There are not so many in the world, in my opinion....By sincere, I mean those who have a very strong desire to live as Oneness, and not live through the illusion of a separate ego/self , which calls itself this or that religion, caste etc... and the sincerity is carried on the bird of action... not only knowledge....

I invite you to see who is it that gets insulted..... only the image one has of oneself gets insulted...

By seeing the illusions of conditioning one by one , we come closer to living as Oneness... and this is still happening in my experience too... One thing at a time... one illusion bought to awareness at a time....

All the best on your journey to living as the truth of who you are,
Soul

Soul

29 January 2008, 02:08 AM

soham3

29 January 2008, 02:14 AM

Kshatriyas were like parents and brahmins were teachers. Just as father / teacher scolds a child to make him a better soul, even so brahmins & kshatriyas will sometimes mal-treat women, vaishyas and shudras to discipline them and maintain order in the society. Of course when the excesses started, caste system broke and democracy came in.

sarabhanga

29 January 2008, 02:19 AM

only the image one has of oneself gets insulted

Exactly what the protestants might have said as they defaced and destroyed catholic institutions, or what any christian missionary might say while extorting a conversion!

It is not my image of personal self that is offended but rather my own image of GOD that is taken as a sign of something rotten inside!! And I find that offensive.

You have NO idea of why a saMnyAsin actually wears an ochre cloth or of what that symbol implies in his own sAdhana.

sm78

29 January 2008, 02:21 AM

atanu

29 January 2008, 06:34 AM

"I" have been devoured by what the sacred texts have repeatedly pointed to ....
There is no "western" .. there is no "Hindu", there is no "caste"..
"I" have been devoured by the glorious Oness that I am.... The beloved has devoured "me"...
May all be devoured..
Soul

Namaste Soul,

If, there is no "western" .. there is no "Hindu", there is no "caste", then how are you so concerned with ochre robes and caste? Glorious oneness does not see the world the way you are seeing. Also your very blanket statement on people wearing ochre robes was absolutely unwarranted. Will you like anyone to hurt your faith? You may wish to convey a simple sorry to the sadhu concerned.

I do not savour many aspects of caste system. It must be painful for a child to be reminded again and again that one is born low caste. Then, high caste means higher responsibilties, which is not remembered often. And, materialistic mis-application of this caste system has weakened Hinduism.

Yet how does it relate to me? Surely it has a relation? The world does not come to any one and say "See, how ugly (or how beautiful) I am". I see it and know it, and react to make it more beautiful or more ugly.

Contentment or discontentment is your own mind.

Please pardon me, since you have already received some harsh words. I thought, I should point out an obvious problem. Please recieve it positively.

Regards, Best Wishes.

Om

indianx

29 January 2008, 06:43 AM

When an evil person minds his own business, nothing bad happens to society. But when he does tapas & yoga, power generated by his spiritual practices fans out the evil in him to the outside world so as to cause death, disease & other dreadful effects.
The third world war is getting hastened because of so many evil people practising spiritual sadhana.

As I know it, the purpose of yoga and tapas is to better ourselves in the path to moksha. What exactly is incorrect with anybody, even an "evil" person, practicing such things to better themselves? And in this case, I'm not even sure if Shambooka was a person of truly maligned characteristics. So, I have to think that there's perhaps some other explanation for that part of the Ramayana and I would appreciate any input from some of our other members here.

Bob G

29 January 2008, 08:18 AM

My pov is that the true caste system arose with or from Lord Brahma - with Him as the first and the last in endless cycles of creation, preservation and destruction. (or the respective Deity one chooses) Also, since these cycles and or life-times of Lord Brahma will never end, niether shall the true caste system or spiritual order and dharma in effect in creation, preservation and destruction never end.

Maybe I'm getting things a little mixed up with known historical and or social ramifications and permutations related to the caste system(s) of our particular time, but my main interest is in its spiritual root at the very beginning of (all) time.

There is much reference to Oneness, Self, Absolute, etc., but in the meantime I think that we who are identified as individual souls in creation must deal with the Laws in effect for our souls. And for the few that master themselves and reach the Self that never really left, the only Law and Joy is the Self it-Self.

Om

Bob G

29 January 2008, 08:48 AM

sm78

29 January 2008, 08:49 AM

There is much reference to Oneness, Self, Absolute, etc., but in the meantime I think that we who are identified as individual souls in creation must deal with the Laws in effect for our souls. And for the few that master themselves and reach the Self that never really left, the only Law and Joy is the Self it-Self.
Om

One is the seer and not the seen. I see a pot, I see a tree. Tree<>Pot, but it is same I who see.

This has been pointed so many times in this forum that even I understand it.

Tree=Pot theory is just another false dogma like many others available in human society. They can only bring harm.

sm78

29 January 2008, 09:01 AM

Hello IndianX,

"...But when he does tapas & yoga, power generated by his spiritual practices fans out the evil in him to the outside world..."

That is kind of a strange saying without further explanations?

Sounds like Black magic to me, done unknowingly or knowingly, thus the increase of prana (through certain practices) is being twisted through the filter of evil beings and then it becomes more destructive compared to just leaving it be.

Om

Namaste Bob,

I think the original poster was per haves referring to latent desires (which could be asuric) still active in the sadhak.

Mantra sadhana for example can bring forth a shining intellect which can then be used cunningly for bhoga.

All of the puranic demons had performed great tapas at some point of time.

However none of the powers of jiva are actually his own...it is just a few ounce borrowed from Ishwara which would soon be drained.

On another scale this is one reason why we as common people need basic karma yoga and the yamas to first clean up and align our Beings before putting more prana through them since it and we could become twisted, along with speeding up that twisting process without doing so.

That's it I think.

satay

29 January 2008, 09:03 AM

Namaskar,
I don’t understand why dalits are always crying ‘injustice, injustice’ when they are ones getting special treatments in India. Free education, free health care, easy access to university education. If everyone is equal why we are now giving special treatments to dalits on the backs of other hard working Hindus? Why must a hindu be treated like a minority like no rights all the while when dalits get special treatments, Christians get special treatments, muslims go on haj on tax dollars? Why? I think if anyone should cry foul and cry ‘injustice injustice’ is the regular hardworking hindu. But he remains quite because all this nonsense of guilt feelings have been fed to him for centuries. It is time for hindus to wake up and embrace their culture and yes, that includes ‘caste’ as understood by non-hindus.

“Broken People of India”, I think NOT!

The only “broken people” are unfortunate enough to be born in non-dalit families as they must provide for their children against everything that’s working against them including the Indian gov’t.

The ‘equality’ can only be achieved by education and not by giving special treatments in getting higher jobs and free money to go yatra to your religion’s holy places.

I am a Hindu, I have never abused any dalit, so why the generalizations? How about if I make generalizations that all white people have abused blacks by making them slaves?

In fact, the truth is quite different, I know of many families (including my own father) who are always helping the underprivileged be they dalit or from other castes.

It is the responsibility of each Indian to help the other underprivileged Indians to bring them above the poverty line yet no one needs to give up their varna or their caste to achieve this. So, therefore, instead of crying ‘injustice injustice’ dalits and other underprivileged people should join forces with other hindus and focus on the poverty problem and not get into the hands of non-hindu propaganda machine. We all know that dalits are provoked by Christian missionaries working on the grounds in the guise of ‘helping the poor’ and for a western media it makes a great story.

It is time to wake up and hear the other side of the story instead of crying injustice all the time.

satay

29 January 2008, 09:14 AM

Hello and Namaskar Soul,

"I" have been devoured by what the sacred texts have repeatedly pointed to ....

There is no "western" .. there is no "Hindu", there is no "caste"..

"I" have been devoured by the glorious Oness that I am.... The beloved has devoured "me"...

May all be devoured..
Soul

I don't know what you are talking about. The 'caste system' is social phenonmenon and is of no concern to the non-Indians. What do sacred texts have to do with any of this?

Also, I find this very strange that you are making generalizations about sanyasins and hindus. When making such generalizations where is this 'glorious oneness'?

Look, it is too easy to say 'injustice injustice', 'abolish caste system' without actually understanding the issue of the parties involved. The whole thing is a propaganda spread by dalits who are provoked by adharmic forces who are in the business of 'saving souls'.

Please do your own research on the matter and share with the forum members instead of churning the propaganda machine.

And again, NO, neither the caste system is going away nor the varna system. Before crying abolish caste system perhaps the western media should cry 'abolish class system'. Here where I live in Canada there is much abuse of native americans and you might be no stranger to the abuse of blacks in the USA, however, I have no idea of what goes on in Australia perhaps yours is a perfect society?

We should all 'act locally first' and have some faith in the Indians...they can take care of their own social problems...

satay

29 January 2008, 09:46 AM

Namaskar,

(btw I wonder why when I try to select a blank on my profile under religion, does it keep returning to Sanatana Dharma.... This is so limiting to me.... this is not who I am)
Soul

That's because we are 'all one' and belong to sanatana dharma no matter what environment we might belong to. ;)

Sanatana Dharma is not limiting it is liberating...

BTW, I just checked and your 'religion' is set to 'blank' as per your wishes. The blank is the default so am not sure what was happening.

satay

29 January 2008, 09:55 AM

Namaste,

Do nt’you people think it is our “Dharma?” to uplift these people in the gutter?
Love………………………VC

It is everyone's dharma to uplift those living in poverty. The best approach is that rich countries should abolish their borders so that all people have an chance at 'equality'. Why there are borders in the world? These man made lines should be abolished.

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

indianx

29 January 2008, 10:08 AM

Hello IndianX,

"...But when he does tapas & yoga, power generated by his spiritual practices fans out the evil in him to the outside world..."

That is kind of a strange saying without further explanations?

Sounds like Black magic to me, done unknowingly or knowingly, thus the increase of prana (through certain practices) is being twisted through the filter of evil beings and then it becomes more destructive compared to just leaving it be.I think those quoted words were from another poster. But, on the subject, things like yoga and tapas are considered good because they produce good results. I still don't see why an 'evil' person doing them would result in something bad. That might just be due to a lack of insight on my part. And, in this case, as soham has presented it, Shambooka doesn't even appear to be an 'evil' person. He is supposed to be a shudra. How else can a shudra become a brahmin, but through the practice of yoga, tapas, and such things?

satay

29 January 2008, 02:13 PM

namaste,

So are you saying that one need not be born as a brAhmaNa in order to 'follow the ... course"? Most rSis who have reached samadhi were brAhmaNas by birth AND lifestyle. Those who have reached samadhi just by lifestyle are a rarity!

Subham.

Who was valmiki?

Bob G

29 January 2008, 03:17 PM

Hello Soul, If you are interested here is an excerpt about the path and life of Sannyasin.

By H.H. Sri Swami Sivananda Maharaj, Founder of The Divine Life Society, Born 1887.
Alive today in countless names & forms

“Be good. Do good.
Be kind. Be compassionate.
Bear insult. Bear injury
This is the highest Sadhana"

Who is a sannyasin–I

"The life of Jesus shows how a real sannyasin will behave. A sannyasin is a very good and extremely virtuous man. He has no attachment to the world. He may live in the forest or in the city. He will always be thinking of God and of the welfare of other people. He will keep his mind and heart quite pure. He is without anger, without hatred, is truthful and kind. He wants no luxuries but just enough food to keep him alive. He wears very simple dress, He has no family and children and property. Yet he is extremely happy. He is wise and virtuous. He possesses divine qualities such as mercy, universal love, truthfulness, purity. He has control over his mind and senses. He is free from anger, lust, greed, pride, jealousy. He loves all. He always prays and meditates. He never does any harm to anybody. People respect and adore him.

Who is a sannyasin–II

A sannyasin has a different angle of vision. He has different eyes. He looks upon everything from an absolutely different point of view. Just as the man who wears green spectacles sees green objects everywhere, so also a jnani sees the atman everywhere through his new eye of wisdom. There is absolutely no personal element in him. He has not a bit of selfish interest. The lower self is completely annihilated. He lives for serving all. He feels the world as his own self. He actually feels that all is himself only. There is not a single thought or feeling for his personal little self. He has cosmic vision and cosmic feeling. Just as the river has joined the ocean, he has joined the ocean of bliss, knowledge and consciousness. He thinks and feels and works for others. A sannyasin is absolutely free from worries, difficulties, troubles, tribulations, sorrow and anxieties under any circumstance or condition. He is always cheerful and happy. He is not a slave or victim of different moods. He is not moved a bit by sorrow, grief or persecution. A sannyasin has got all-round development. He has spotless or unblemished character. All sattwic virtues shine in him. He is an embodiment of mercy, sympathy, love, patience, serenity, etc. He has high qualities. The whole nature has been perfectly unfolded. All divine attributes are fully awakened in him".

Soul

29 January 2008, 05:24 PM

Namaste Soul,

If, there is no "western" .. there is no "Hindu", there is no "caste", then how are you so concerned with ochre robes and caste? Glorious oneness does not see the world the way you are seeing. Also your very blanket statement on people wearing ochre robes was absolutely unwarranted. Will you like anyone to hurt your faith? You may wish to convey a simple sorry to the sadhu concerned.

I do not savour many aspects of caste system. It must be painful for a child to be reminded again and again that one is born low caste. Then, high caste means higher responsibilties, which is not remembered often. And, materialistic mis-application of this caste system has weakened Hinduism.

Yet how does it relate to me? Surely it has a relation? The world does not come to any one and say "See, how ugly (or how beautiful) I am". I see it and know it, and react to make it more beautiful or more ugly.

Contentment or discontentment is your own mind.

Please pardon me, since you have already received some harsh words. I thought, I should point out an obvious problem. Please recieve it positively.

Regards, Best Wishes.

Om

Namaste Atanu,

I did write to saying the comment orange robes was not pointed to Sarabhanga... check message number : 41...

Why am I so concerned about ochre robes and caste? you ask...

I was saying that many priests (upper castes) and people wearing orange robes do not really live what they read about in the scriptures , which is All is One...and that statement is true.... actually many people don't live as Oneness on this planet at this time, it is very rare to find one who will let go of ego... To live it would be to not support the division that beliefs like "I am a Hindu" , or any religion ..."I am a westerner" or "i am a priest" ...etc.... all these statement don't point to the truth of who anyone is.. it only causes division and conflict...as is seen in this documentary and many ..

If anyone react due to these words, and writes nasty comments.. that is something for them to look at in themselves...
Nothing I have written was written with fingers pointing or intended to insult anyone in person...All was written in a state of peace, and sometimes read in gentle amusement...

There is a lot of opposition to this documentary... something I was not intending to encounter in this forum...but i can understand...

Peace to All,
Soul

Soul

29 January 2008, 05:39 PM

satay

29 January 2008, 05:41 PM

namaskar soul,

All posts in response to the original post of this thread are made in peace.

I can say for my posts that unless where specifically I addressed you, most of content is not directed at you in particular but to reporter(s) and to reader(s) who has (the typical) mentality and influences as you have.

You might not see any boundaries and they might not be real but to most there 'are' boundaries and they 'are' real otherwise why the documentary?

You did rightfully post the OP in 'Hot Topics' sections, indeed, it is a 'Hot Topic.'

Soul

29 January 2008, 05:45 PM

namaskar soul,

All posts in response to the original post of this thread are made in peace.

I can say for my posts that unless where specifically I addressed you, most of content is not directed at you in particular but to reporter(s) and to reader(s) who has (the typical) mentality and influences as you have.

You did rightfully post the OP in 'Hot Topics' sections, indeed, it is a 'Hot Topic.'

Sure is :)

Hot topics are like gems.. they can bring up deep vasanas within us all to be faced and transformed... true gems...

In peace,
Soul

soham3

29 January 2008, 10:31 PM

Mahabharata says that a brahmin / kshatriya female may copulate with a vaishya or shudra male due to exigencies of passions, circumstances, situations and stimulants of Nature. So percentage of pure brahmins / kshatriyas will reduce and percentage of hybrid people will increase. For example, you will have brahma-rakshasas ( Ravana was one such ). There is a 'brahmin' minister in the Indian Government who eats beef.

atanu

29 January 2008, 10:52 PM

Namaste Atanu,
--
I was saying that many priests (upper castes) and people wearing orange robes do not really live what they read about in the scriptures , which is All is One...and that statement is true.... actually many people don't live as Oneness on this planet at this time, it is very rare to find one who will let go of ego... ---Peace to All,
Soul

Namaste Soul,

My point remains. Why does it bother one, who is in Oneness?

Not for argument, but for mutual silent cogitation and silent recognition.

Om

Soul

30 January 2008, 12:04 AM

Namaste Soul,

My point remains. Why does it bother one, who is in Oneness?

Not for argument, but for mutual silent cogitation and silent recognition.

Om
Namaste Atanu,

The word bother doesn't apply.... There is no energy of being bothered, which to me implied suffering over what is... There is no suffering here....

Living as Oneness doesn't mean that action all of a sudden stops. or speaking out all of a sudden stops... caring is very much still alive and if speaking or pointing something out to people wants to happen, it does... there is no doer.
Who knows what action happens or will happen... There is only no attachment to outcome...

Why did Buddha speak?
Why did Shankaracharya speak?
Why does anyone speak?

We are still in Oneness when speaking....
We are still in Oneness whilst thinking is happening....
We are still in Oneness while pointing out ...
We are still in Onenes whilst acting out....

There is not the idea that a separate one is acting, thinking,speaking...

No matter what a deluded man may think he is perceiving, he is really
seeing Brahman and nothing else but Brahman. ...This universe, which is
superimposed upon Brahman, is nothing but a name. Shankara

Hari Om,
Soul

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 01:18 AM

I invite you to see what it is that gets insulted �

Some perspective on the �ochre robe�, with Australian implications.

Aboriginal culture in Australia has been ravaged by European (Christian) occupation for more than 200 years, and now (in general) it is a pale reflection of its original condition, and there are many social problems (alcoholism, abuse of children and women, petrol sniffing, rape, violence, etc., etc.). This is not to say that their traditional culture has not survived in some remote communities, but past government policies involved separating aboriginal children from their families, and sending inland natives to the coast and coastal natives inland, and Christian missions were established in even the most remote areas, and new settlers took it upon themselves to rid the land of its original inhabitants (or at least get them civilized, i.e. Christianized). And any serious objectors were simply rounded up and shot or imprisoned. So the traditional understanding is now highly fragmented, and much has been lost, and the few tribal elders remaining with any traditional knowledge are very important to the whole aboriginal community.

Aboriginal society has an elaborate system of tribal relations, akin to the jAti, gotra, varNa, system in Hinduism, and the elders command great respect, but sometimes (in degraded communities) that power and influence has certainly been abused. And we should be careful to distinguish the wrong behavior of some misguided individuals from the true culture they are misrepresenting.

Ochre is an important element in most aboriginal ritual, and this blood of the earth is collected from sacred and secret sites. There are special mantras (�songs�) for the pilgrimage, and the women (with their own special songs) weave a special bag to hold the prize.

And a sAdhu�s single unstitched ochre-holding cloth is exactly the same concept, with exactly the same ritual significance, as the aboriginal elder�s string bag of ochre, which is indeed a VERY sacred thing (for those that understand).

Now, would it be considerate or wise to enter an aboriginal forum and suggest that (because of the obvious problems in the culture, as it appears today) the wise-man�s ochre-bag is merely a symbol of something rotten inside?? And then would it be wise to tell them, don�t worry because �only the image one has of oneself gets insulted� ???

people wearing orange � it�s all trying to portray some image of being holy and pure, but inside they are rotten.

my own image of GOD is taken as a sign of something rotten inside!! And I find that offensive.

I understand that the �rotten� comment was not directed at me (or any particular person) but the general slur on all ochre robes and their spiritual significance was quite uncalled for and obviously based in the very effective propaganda that has been pouring out for centuries about the evil �caste system� and its barbaric priestly enforcers.

Rather than bowing to those who are entirely ignorant of true varNAshrama dharma and would follow the old anti-Hindu propaganda in suggesting that the whole thing should be discarded, I would prefer to go about properly informing the Hindu community regarding the true intentions and proper application of its principles.

There is a perfect baby in the bath-water and those who are blind to its existence would cast it down the drain!

"I" have been devoured by what the sacred texts have repeatedly pointed to.

There is no "Hindu", there is no "caste".

"I" have been devoured by the glorious Oneness that I am.

Very good, but the vedAnta was intended to supplement the veda, not to destroy it!

The same tactic has long been used by Buddhists and Christians (whose own doctrine was based on vedAnta, as opposed to the preceding Judaism which was based on the veda). The limiting views of Christianity and Buddhism basically say you can keep the vedAnta, but you must throw the veda away ~ because it is the same vaidika understanding from which they have both broken away (and if they don�t make this demand then their separate existence disappears).

But Hinduism has never broken away from itself, and the veda and vedAnta are both considered as integral to the whole of Hindu dharma. And while all saMnyAsins finally renounce the vaidika rites in favor of pure vedAnta, they would never have become a saMnyAsin in the first place without them!

An avadhUta went among the shUdrA to transmit the true word, the highest wisdom of vedAnta, and the shUdras went off on their own, now confident that the whole edifice of dharma is ultimately superfluous, and bent on satisfying their own desires however they see fit, because after all every human (however ignorant) is a veritable God.

Soul

30 January 2008, 02:29 AM

Some perspective on the “ochre robe”, with Australian implications.

Aboriginal culture in Australia has been ravaged by European (Christian) occupation for more than 200 years, and now (in general) it is a pale reflection of its original condition, and there are many social problems (alcoholism, abuse of children and women, petrol sniffing, rape, violence, etc., etc.). This is not to say that their traditional culture has not survived in some remote communities, but past government policies involved separating aboriginal children from their families, and sending inland natives to the coast and coastal natives inland, and Christian missions were established in even the most remote areas, and new settlers took it upon themselves to rid the land of its original inhabitants (or at least get them civilized, i.e. Christianized). And any serious objectors were simply rounded up and shot or imprisoned. So the traditional understanding is now highly fragmented, and much has been lost, and the few tribal elders remaining with any traditional knowledge are very important to the whole aboriginal community.

Aboriginal society has an elaborate system of tribal relations, akin to the jAti, gotra, varNa, system in Hinduism, and the elders command great respect, but sometimes (in degraded communities) that power and influence has certainly been abused. And we should be careful to distinguish the wrong behavior of some misguided individuals from the true culture they are misrepresenting.

Ochre is an important element in most aboriginal ritual, and this blood of the earth is collected from sacred and secret sites. There are special mantras (“songs”) for the pilgrimage, and the women (with their own special songs) weave a special bag to hold the prize.

And a sAdhu’s single unstitched ochre-holding cloth is exactly the same concept, with exactly the same ritual significance, as the aboriginal elder’s string bag of ochre, which is indeed a VERY sacred thing (for those that understand).

Now, would it be considerate or wise to enter an aboriginal forum and suggest that (because of the obvious problems in the culture, as it appears today) the wise-man’s ochre-bag is merely a symbol of something rotten inside?? And then would it be wise to tell them, don’t worry because “only the image one has of oneself gets insulted” ???

I understand that the “rotten” comment was not directed at me (or any particular person) but the general slur on all ochre robes and their spiritual significance was quite uncalled for and obviously based in the very effective propaganda that has been pouring out for centuries about the evil “caste system” and its barbaric priestly enforcers.

Very good, but the vedAnta was intended to supplement the veda, not to destroy it!

The same tactic has long been used by Buddhists and Christians (whose own doctrine was based on vedAnta, as opposed to the preceding Judaism which was based on the veda). The limiting views of Christianity and Buddhism basically say you can keep the vedAnta, but you must throw the veda away ~ because it is the same vaidika understanding from which they have both broken away (and if they don’t make this demand then their separate existence disappears).

But Hinduism has never broken away from itself, and the veda and vedAnta are both considered as integral to the whole of Hindu dharma. And while all saMnyAsins finally renounce the vaidika rites in favor of pure vedAnta, they would never have become a saMnyAsin in the first place without them!

An avadhUta went among the shUdrA to transmit the true word, the highest wisdom of vedAnta, and the shUdras went off on their own, now confident that the whole edifice of dharma is ultimately superfluous, and bent on satisfying their own desires however they see fit, because after all every human (however ignorant) is a veritable God.

Namste Sarabhanga,

Again the comment on people wearing orange robes and Higher caste priests , looking holy on the outside but not necessarily Being holy , was a generalized comment... not everyone with these appearances are rotten inside (by that i just mean have alot of unconscious patterns). .

This was not intended to be a personal attack on you or anyone...

I can say the same about people wearing Buddhists robes and Christian priests.. many are deeply unconscious and have terribly violent vasanas, but portray an image of being holy.( the Christians made aboriginal people jump off cliffs when they first invaded Australia)

What I'm saying is the outside does not neccessarily portray what is inside...

Referring back to the documentary, I was really only saying that the Brahmin priests that condone and perpetuate a system which clearly is harmful to others, being the untouchables (for example in one video an untouchable who wore sandals was beaten to death by higher castes).
This shows me that some priests, probably many,have deep unconscious harmful patterns. This is what I mean by rotten inside... be it anyone who looks the part of a holy person, but has vasanas they don't want to face....

You are a sincere seeker...

Keep on your path....

Bear insult...is one of the tenets of a sadhu, which Bob posted earlier...

By saying to you...."It is the image one has of oneself that gets insulted", this is a chance to see where we go into the ego...this is a gem for you, if you want it. If not that is fine.
When someone insults us, or we perceive insult, it is a great opportunity to free ourselves from the grip of illusion of a separate self...

Peace to you,
Soul

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 03:22 AM

'Bear insult' is one of the tenets of a sadhu, which Bob posted earlier...

this is a gem for you, if you want it

When someone insults us it is a great opportunity to free ourselves from the grip of illusion.

I have no care for myself, and I know your gem very well ~ but why should Hinduism itself be forced to suffer insults in a primarily Hindu forum ??

I don't suppose you know much about the tenets of the nAgA sAdhu, but he will happily fight to the death in defending dharma. Whole legions have given their lives fighting against Islamic and Christian persecution of Hindus and against any corruption of Hindu dharma. Today the government keeps a rein on the akhADA sAdhus, but their strenuous defense of Hindu dharma continues.

sm78

30 January 2008, 03:46 AM

Referring back to the documentary, I was really only saying that the Brahmin priests that condone and perpetuate a system which clearly is harmful to others, being the untouchables (for example in one video an untouchable who wore sandals was beaten to death by higher castes).
This shows me that some priests, probably many,have deep unconscious harmful patterns. This is what I mean by rotten inside... be it anyone who looks the part of a holy person, but has vasanas they don't want to face....

Thanks for sharing your opinion. What some here are trying to drive at (quite unsuccessfully) is that your idea of the system (based on a couple of you-tude documentaries) is grossly incorrect and insulting it and the associated culture among a group of people belonging to that culture with very little or no respect whatsoever, may not be quite right thing to do.

Kanchi Paramacharya was (for me atleast and millions like me) the greatest sage who lived in our times. A major part of his teaching and activity was to protect and preserve varnAshrama dharma.

I am sure you could have pointed out the rotteness in him and where he was going wrong with his sadhana.

You are a sincere seeker...

Keep on your path....

Bear insult...is one of the tenets of a sadhu, which Bob posted earlier...

By saying to you...."It is the image one has of oneself that gets insulted", this is a chance to see where we go into the ego...this is a gem for you, if you want it. If not that is fine.
When someone insults us, or we perceive insult, it is a great opportunity to free ourselves from the grip of illusion of a separate self...

Thanks again for your opinion on sadhu and sagely advice to him.

sm78

30 January 2008, 03:52 AM

vedAnta was intended to supplement the veda, not to destroy it!

This is the wisdom which should be reiterated as many times as possible.

Nuno Matos

30 January 2008, 08:11 AM

Namaste SM 78,

" body-less mleccha graha rAhu "

Lol!. Could you please explain yourself ? Cause I don´t know how a body-less mleccha can be a graha rAhu. Unless he might be a God or an Avadhuta. Shiva the white and is friends for example to Sita's father wore all "body-less mleccha graha rAhu." It's all in the Puranas dear friend.

Bob G

30 January 2008, 08:11 AM

A tangent, but I think a key one related to part of this thread:

Legal Definition of Hinduism

In a 1966 ruling, the Supreme Court of India (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Supreme_Court_of_India) defined the Hindu faith as follows for legal purposes:

Acceptance of the Vedas (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Vedas) with reverence as the highest authority in religious and philosophic matters and acceptance with reverence of Vedas by Hindu thinkers and philosophers as the sole foundation of Hindu philosophy (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Hindu_philosophy).
Spirit of tolerance and willingness to understand and appreciate the opponent's point of view based on the realization that truth is many-sided.
Acceptance of great world rhythm — vast periods of creation, maintenance and dissolution follow each other in endless succession — by all six systems of Hindu philosophy.
Acceptance by all systems of Hindu philosophy of the belief in rebirth and pre-existence.
Recognition of the fact that the means or ways to salvation are many.
Realization of the truth that numbers of Gods to be worshiped may be large, yet there are Hindus who do not believe in the worshiping of idols.Recognition of the fact that the means or ways to
salvation are many. (This is a main key that I see)

Thus if non-Hindus do not recognize this fact or until they do, there will be irreconcilable differences between the parties. I lean more towards Taoist beliefs myself but will defend the rights of my Hindu Brothers and Sisters along the lines mentioned above.

Also, I think there are those of us in the "west" and even some in the "east" that tend to take the core teaching of Hinduism, namely Brahman in one hand...but then do not want to accept or at least leave be Hinduisms many ways or means with the other hand; this to say the least is like sinking someone else's boat while they are crossing a sea.

Which for example is why I would reject the contradictory teachings of someone like Jiddu Krishnamurti, the anti-guru, guru.

Om

sm78

30 January 2008, 08:25 AM

satay

30 January 2008, 09:17 AM

Namaste Soul,
Quite frankly, I think that you are now trying to 'save face' by putting your foot in the mouth.

Please please please, do proper research on the matter before crying 'abolish caste system' in some sort of hippy like manner.

And the fact that you made a 'general comment' not directed at any one person still doesn't make it warranted.

May be you are working out your vasansas by posting the link to the documentary but if you are serious please do your own research on the matter.

Soul

30 January 2008, 02:08 PM

No matter what a deluded man may think he is perceiving, he is really
seeing Brahman and nothing else but Brahman. ...This universe, which is
superimposed upon Brahman, is nothing but a name. Shankara

The Brahmin priest and the untouchable are the same....
I am the priest and I am the untouchable...
This needs no research...

Soul

30 January 2008, 02:12 PM

I

I don't suppose you know much about the tenets of the nAgA sAdhu, but he will happily fight to the death in defending dharma.

Is this ahimsa?

This is the rottenness i referred to....

Peace to All,
Soul

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 04:54 PM

Is this ahimsa?

Without knowing yama, once again, a half-truth is presumed.

This is ahiMsAsatyAste !

Please read the bhagavadgItA, along with any of my numerous posts on the subject of TRUE ahiMsA.

Soul

30 January 2008, 05:00 PM

Namaste,

I have read the Bhagavad Gita...
It is all metaphor...
It teaches of the inner battle...
So many misinterpret this teaching and use it to perpetuate the existence of ego...
I have heard this defense strategy before...using text for ones own gain....just like so many people do of many religions...
This only perpetuates suffering and the illusion of separation, and NOT seeing that all is Brahma...
Again , it is Kali Yuga after all....
There is so much ignorance...

Bob, I love J. Krishnamurti...

So many Indians have spoken against the atrocities currently happening because of the caste system....
It is not a "Western propaganda"..
It began in India a long time ago...
It's just that now more information is getting around, with the internet and all, and so people can be made more aware of what is happening...

Anyway.. there is great disagreement here and that's ok with me...

Peace,
Soul

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 05:10 PM

The Brahmin priest and the untouchable are the same.

And that is another half-truth.

You forget that every jIva is equal, but every incarnation is different.

It is only by the finished product that any creation can properly be named, appreciated or employed, and it is quite true to say that anyone proving themselves as vaishya is in the end a vaishya, with an excess of tamoguNa. And anyone proving themselves as a kshatriya is in the end a kshatriya, with an excess of rajoguNa. And anyone proving themselves as a brAhmaNa is in the end a brAhmaNa, with a fullness of sattvaguNa.

The misinformation and vilification campaign began, and now the original pattern is largely forgotten, and it is generally assumed that varNa is simply a birth-right with no obligations.

In truth, a truly hopeless �brAhmaNa� is lower than a shUdra, and a �shUdra� who is truly siddha is an avadhUta!

Soul

30 January 2008, 05:15 PM

And that is another half-truth.

You forget that every jIva is equal, but every incarnation is different.

No Sarabhanga, that is how I honestly see it....

Appearance is only appearance....

I am focusing on the Jiva.... and that is what I see when I look at people....

Not their religion, position, Nationality etc...

And that is how i want to continue seeing the world...

If others don't see like this.... then they don't..

Me pointing it out isn't going to make them see it like this....

And that is ok with me... as I mentioned earlier , there's no attachment to get people to see the way I do....

So , I'll end it here....

Wishing all freedom from the bonds of belief in separation...

Soul

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 05:26 PM

I have heard this defense strategy before...using text for ones own gain.

Please explain.

ahiMsAsatyAste is NOT ignorance, it is the very basis of sanAtana dharma. So please learn something about yama before ignorantly dismissing the vow that actually defines an AryaHindu yogin. :(

Bob G

30 January 2008, 06:01 PM

Hello Soul,
Below is an excerpt from J. Krishnamurti (that you may have already read?) of one of his mystical/religious experiences. A major problem I have with him is that he then more or less spends the rest of his life denying mystical and religious experiences as taught and or attained by mystical or religious people and or schools!! (which take place on and are a part of the path, with obviously included himself)

"...I began to come to myself and finally Mr Warrington asked me to go under the pepper tree which is near the house. There I sat crosslegged in the meditation posture. When I had sat thus for some time, I felt myself going out of my body, I saw myself sitting down with the delicate tender leaves of the tree over me. I was facing the east. In front of me was my body and over my head I saw the Star, bright and clear. Then I could feel the vibration of the Lord Buddha; I beheld Lord Maitreya and Master K.H. I was so happy, calm and at peace. I could still see my body and I was hovering near it. There was such profound calmness both in the air and within the lake, I felt my physical body, with its mind and motions could be ruffled on the surface but nothing, nay nothing, could disturb the calmness of my soul. The Presence of the mighty Beings was with me for some time and then They were gone.
I was supremely happy, for I had seen. Nothing could ever be the same. I have drunk at the clear and pure waters at the source of the fountain of life and thirst was appeased. Never more could I be thirsty, never more could I be in utter darkness. I have seen the Light. I have touched compassion which heals all sorrow and suffering; it is not for myself, but for the world. I have stood on the mountain top and gazed at the mighty Beings. Never can I be in utter darkness; I have seen the glorious and healing Light. The fountain of Truth has been revealed to me and the darkness has been dispersed. Love in all its glory has intoxicated my heart; my heart can never be closed. I have drunk at the fountain of Joy and eternal Beauty. I am God-intoxicated" (J.K.)

Bob G

30 January 2008, 06:15 PM

...btw, I think the saying by Solomon that goes something like, "he who digs a pit shall fall into it" has a lot of insight and must have been made with experience of same.

Znanna

30 January 2008, 06:30 PM

Namaste,

I don't know from Hindu societal/ritual definitions of "caste". I really shouldn't be commenting here, but I was provoked :)

But, FWIW, I'll give you "caste" in ZN world ... you're either US or not. Your choice. No regrets. Love y'all.

ZN

Nuno Matos

30 January 2008, 06:40 PM

Namaste Znanna

"But, FWIW, I'll give you "caste" in ZN world ... you're either US or not. Your choice. No regrets. Love y'all."

Things are getting real pretty now!

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 06:49 PM

Namaste,

The greatest problems with the application of varNAshrama dharma seem to be found in the south, where avadhUta nAgAs are rare, and most devout Hindus are informed only by brAhmaNa saMnyAsins and kshatriya vAnaprasthins.

The vaidika system was originally three-fold, without any particular provision for the shUdrA. Not that they were deliberately excluded, but a shUdra is by definition ignorant of dharma, and the spiritual dialog of dvija society concerns the knowledge of dharma, so the shUdra was assumed but rarely mentioned (except as the likely destination for any dvija Hindu who forgets his vow to yama). And so the shUdrA became mythologized as descended from the fallen brAhmaNa, murderers, thieves, rapists, etc.

As Hindu society expanded into previously non-Hindu territories, encounters with tribal shUdras increased and the four-fold system had to be admitted as a social reality. This process happened long ago in the north, and the shUdra varNa was (in general) successfully incorporated into the whole.

But there are orthodox vaidika brAhmaNas who still consider the fourth veda as non-vaidika, and they certainly don’t cater for the fourth varNa in their spiritual thinking! And orthodox practice (mainly in the south), ignoring (or even rejecting) the shUdra (no matter how innocent) as “untouchable”, and likewise even rejecting the wisdom (and often the presence) of the few nAgA sAdhus who venture into the south, certainly does not help the cause of varNAshrama dharma.

It is quite understandable that a shUdra is excluded from certain sacred rites, which require that all present have the same intention ~ but the shUdra (by definition) has no wise intent and cannot interfere or even partake without destroying the purity of the sacrifice.

There is no spiritual reason for a shUdra to enter a temple, but there is equally no rule that a shUdra must remain a shUdra for the whole of his/her life. Indeed, the intention of the varNAshrama system is to incorporate the whole community, and to transform every willing shUdra into a vaishya (at least).

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 09:13 PM

I really love Kabir. He got kicked out of Banares for speaking as I do now.

Namaste Soul,

Since the �untouchable� DomarAjA of kAshi has always been one of the most honored (and wealthiest) men in vArANasI, it is quite understandable that Kabir�s protests were deemed inappropriate!

TatTvamAsi

30 January 2008, 09:30 PM

Namaste Sarabhanga,

Namaste,

The greatest problems with the application of varNAshrama dharma seem to be found in the south, where avadhUta nAgAs are rare, and most devout Hindus are informed only by brAhmaNa saMnyAsins and kshatriya vAnaprasthins.

What nonsense! Where are you getting this from?

And so the shUdrA became mythologized as descended from the fallen brAhmaNa, murderers, thieves, rapists, etc.

ShUdras were NEVER categorized as descendants of murderers, thieves, etc.! Only untouchables were/are! The shUdras are an integral part of the society and albeit they are of 'lower birth', their work and fulfillment of their dharma was important in order for any community to survive.

And orthodox practice (mainly in the south), ignoring (or even rejecting) the shUdra (no matter how innocent) as “untouchable”,

Completely wrong! No sUdra is looked upon as an 'untouchable' even today! Many sUdras live according to their dharma and a relatively disciplined life; at least when comparing them to untouchables!

... likewise even rejecting the wisdom (and often the presence) of the few nAgA sAdhus who venture into the south,

Where are you getting this? Seriously? This is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin!

It is quite understandable that a shUdra is excluded from certain sacred rites, which require that all present have the same intention ~ but the shUdra (by definition) has no wise intent and cannot interfere or even partake without destroying the purity of the sacrifice.

There is no spiritual reason for a shUdra to enter a temple, but there is equally no rule that a shUdra must remain a shUdra for the whole of his/her life. Indeed, the intention of the varNAshrama system is to incorporate the whole community, and to transform every willing shUdra into a vaishya (at least).

The main reason sUdras were not allowed into temples is because of the effects of the lifestyles they lead on a 'holy' or important place. Due to the predominantly tamasic and even rajasic gunas in sUdras, the ill effects on the temple and its surroundings needed to be avoided. It has nothing to do with their intention! In fact, many of the sUdras were curious about the Vedas and spirituality and since they were denied the right to study them, they felt outraged but didn't react negatively. Well, until the colonialists came along and spread this misinformation about the 'caste system'! And now, every Tom, Dick, and Harry is reading the Vedas and Upanishads! This is the reason for the Vedas being Shruti works for so long as NO ONE, other than initiated brAhmaNas (dvija) were supposed to learn (from) them.

Subham.

soham3

30 January 2008, 09:48 PM

Soul, your Egypt also had caste system. There were priestly, ruling, trading and labour classes. In India, it was more systematic and in consonance with the laws of the Spirit.

yajvan

30 January 2008, 10:06 PM

sarabhanga

30 January 2008, 10:49 PM

Namaste TTA,

It would be false to say that there is no problem at all in the understanding and application of varNAshrama dharma.

And I don’t mean to point a finger at any community in particular, but the problem is greatest where there is strict orthodoxy in the midst of a disgruntled shUdra population. And this situation is more common in the south.

And I don’t mean to say that nAgAs are unavailable in the south, but the last time I went to rAmeshvara over 10 days I saw two akhADA sAdhus who were passing through on pilgrimage but admitted that they don’t usually stay long in the south because they receive less support, and are frequently moved on, from southern towns. And the last time I went to kedAra, in the north, I could not count the number of nAgAs that passed through or stayed over the same period of 10 days. And from personal experience, the ONLY place that I have ever been refused service in a restaurant was at kanyakumArI, where I was told that my presence was keeping customers away!!!

shUdra and caNDAla are completely mixed in the imagination of many Hindus, and that is a large part of the problem. They are NOT necessarily the same.

And yes, there truly are “untouchables” in the minds of many dvija Hindus ~ and again from personal experience (as both a shUdra and a brAhmaNa) why would it be that an orthodox brAhmaNa might feel compelled to clean their whole house after a “westerner” came inside for a few minutes? Now if that could be the case for a western tourist, imagine if an indian shUdra had entered the house (but I doubt that he would ever have been invited inside).

And, in a ritual context, mere curiosity is not sufficient to pass as unified intention!

atanu

30 January 2008, 11:56 PM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Soul,

Me thinks you have poked a stick into a beehive....
I am in hopes we are able to make honey out of it!

http://k43.pbase.com/g6/93/433793/2/76019322.ri9TxWSK.jpg (http://www.pbase.com/billzbeez/bees_)

Ha ha. Cannot express how apt. Great. I hope one wears the protective gear. Hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Om Shanti

atanu

31 January 2008, 12:15 AM

Namaste Atanu,

The word bother doesn't apply.... There is no energy of being bothered, which to me implied suffering over what is... There is no suffering here....

----No matter what a deluded man may think he is perceiving, he is really
seeing Brahman and nothing else but Brahman. ...This universe, which is
superimposed upon Brahman, is nothing but a name. Shankara

Hari Om,
Soul

Point One

"No matter what a deluded man may think he is perceiving, he is really
seeing Brahman and nothing else but Brahman. ...This universe, which is
superimposed upon Brahman, is nothing but a name. Shankara "

and then

Point 2

"Referring back to the documentary, I was really only saying that the Brahmin priests that condone and perpetuate a system which clearly is harmful to others, being the untouchables (for example in one video an untouchable who wore sandals was beaten to death by higher castes). "

----------------------

Reconcile? Easy. Go to Shushupti and forget. Or still better, be Turya and change the dream.

Shankara is great. Shankara is great. Shankara is great. The greatest.

Brahman is pure good. The effect of the pure Good (the Universe) may or may not be honey, depending on the level of Avidya.

Varna Asrama is a practical arrangement to reduce strife through recognition of the natural differences in abilities and infusing Atman as the commonality. There is no hatred inherent in the arrangement. And one's varna is not eternal. It may change in one's life. Visvamitra Rajrishi became a Brahmrishi. Satyakama, of unknown varna was initiated in Sanayasa because he was truthful. The effect that we see (that of murder or ill treatment) is not Varna Asrama. It is an effect of Ego -- of Avidya that very thing which Varna Asrama intends to mitigate.

Here, I see Soul superimposing an effect of Ego on Varna Asrama. Soul must and must realise that happenings are because of Avidya of separateness giving rise to possessiveness, cruelty, Himsa etc.

As if there is no Himsa where there is no Varna Asrama.

Soul, my last request, be a true follower of Shankara and separate out the effects and the causes. And remember that the effects are seen not without superimposion of one's ego. (It s said that without ego the cause-effect disappear).

Best Wishes. Regards. Love You.

(I dare, with trepidation, to add that if one recognises natural differences and roots for practicality and goodness of Varna Asrama one must also recognise the evil effects and use the laws of Ahimsa, instead of ignoring the cruelty). (Am I poking a stick?)
Om Shanti.

sarabhanga

31 January 2008, 12:41 AM

TatTvamAsi

31 January 2008, 02:24 AM

Namaste Sarabhanga,

Namaste TTA,

It would be false to say that there is no problem at all in the understanding and application of varNAshrama dharma.

I totally agree. I didn't say there is no problem in the understanding and application of Varnashrama Dharma. Especially in modern times, when most 'religious' people forget the real meaning or significance of any ritual or tradition they follow, the application of Varnashrama Dharma can get quite messy!

And I don�t mean to point a finger at any community in particular, but the problem is greatest where there is strict orthodoxy in the midst of a disgruntled shUdra population. And this situation is more common in the south.

As I've emphasized in the quote above, it is certainly true that the farther south in India one goes, the more orthodox people's traditions and consequently practices become.

And I don�t mean to say that nAgAs are unavailable in the south, but the last time I went to rAmeshvara over 10 days I saw two akhADA sAdhus who were passing through on pilgrimage but admitted that they don�t usually stay long in the south because they receive less support, and are frequently moved on, from southern towns. And the last time I went to kedAra, in the north, I could not count the number of nAgAs that passed through or stayed over the same period of 10 days. And from personal experience, the ONLY place that I have ever been refused service in a restaurant was at kanyakumArI, where I was told that my presence was keeping customers away!!!

It seems like your personal experience in the South was not too 'welcoming' to say the least. However, that does NOT mean that the presence of sAdhUs or nAgAs in the South is any lesser than that of Northern India.

Out of the places I've been to in the south, Tiruvannamalai (Sri Arunachala) is fantastic! In the Ramanashram there are plenty of 'foreigners' and it is located in one of the most idyllic places I have ever seen.

And yes, there truly are �untouchables� in the minds of many dvija Hindus ~ and again from personal experience (as both a shUdra and a brAhmaNa) why would it be that an orthodox brAhmaNa might feel compelled to clean their whole house after a �westerner� came inside for a few minutes? Now if that could be the case for a western tourist, imagine if an indian shUdra had entered the house (but I doubt that he would ever have been invited inside).

Now, did that actually happen to you or are you quoting from some passage you've read? I know Mahatma Gandhi's wife used to do this when the Britishers would come to their house and then leave, even if it was for only a few minutes! The reason, again, is subtler forces at play here. If the 'foreigner(s)' leads a very tamasic or rajasic lifestyle, his 'vibes' would have negative subliminal effects on the household. In fact, they used to wash the household with liquified cow dung! However, if a sUdra came into a brAhmaNa's household, it would only be in a case of emergency.

A sUdra knows his boundaries and his place in society as far as how to interact with others (i.e. women/people from higher caste etc.). A sUdra will usually never enter a brAhmaNa's household! Nowadays, society is so mixed that everyone interacts with each other however brAhmaNas always keep their pUjA room private! A sUdra's life is lived entirely in servitude of others; almost as a curse for his past karma. Doing his duty dispassionately, he can rise through the rungs of the ladder to eventually attain samAdhI.

Indians today are in a pitiable state when it comes to Varnashrama Dharma. Without clearly understanding it, they face embarassment and ridicule if they associate themselves to a particular caste. If one tries to 'enforce' it he is seen as a racist, casteist, and fundamentalist. South Indians are generally discriminated against for their darker complexion and the North Indians by the Europeans/Americans for the same reason. Yet, I've seen some South Indian brAhmaNas who are fairer skinned that many Kashmiris! When seen in the grandeur of things, one seems to realize that Varnashrama Dharma is not about subjugation of others, especially for some frivolity like color of skin etc., but about one's dharma in this life. This misinterpretation of the 'Caste System' is doing so much harm to thousands of people and yet they do not realize it!

Subham.

TatTvamAsi

31 January 2008, 02:26 AM

I once met a brAhmaNa from Mumbai, who was qualified from a western university, and spoke several languages fluently, and was well versed in Hindu dharma (and especially fond of shrI gaNesha). He had grown up in India with great respect, but he had faced discrimination in the west merely because of his skin color. And then he contracted vitilago, and his skin began to turn white in patches. This skin disorder is traditionally associated with leprosy (in fact there is no connection), and he was shunned by orthodox brAhmaNAs back at home. But eventually all of his skin became white, making him (at first meeting) almost indistinguishable from a cultured European or American, and now he was well accepted in most places as such, but orthodox priests refused him entry to some sacred places normally admissible for any Hindu and roughly treated him as an impertinent foreigner!

Now, can anyone honestly say there is not something very wrong with this ridiculous (but entirely true) scenario?

Namaste Sarabhanga,

Obviously, your example is an extreme one and you're right; it is very wrong! This is because most of the people who enforce Varnashrama Dharma do not understand it or its true purpose. The focus on trivialities such as color of skin etc. is nothing but delusion. In fact, there are quite a few Iyengars from the South who are as dark as sUdras--Sadagoppan Ramesh the cricketer is one such example!

Subham.

sarabhanga

31 January 2008, 02:57 AM

Out of the places I've been to in the south, Tiruvannamalai (Sri Arunachala) is fantastic! In the Ramanashram there are plenty of 'foreigners' and it is located in one of the most idyllic places I have ever seen.

Yes indeed, but can you name another such location? Also note that the followers of shrI ramaNa are not nAgAs, and ramaNa RSi was not associated with any nAgA akhADA, nor even with the dashanAmi order of saMnyAsins. It seems to me that his station would be more like a vAnaprasthin, just as the vaidika RSis were vAnaprasthins rather than saMnyAsins.

Why would it be that an orthodox brAhmaNa might feel compelled to clean their whole house after a “westerner” came inside for a few minutes?

Now, did that actually happen to you or are you quoting from some passage you've read?

Again, yes indeed. And the first time I noticed this was actually in Rajasthan. My understanding of Hindu culture has not been obtained merely from reading. ;)

yajvan

31 January 2008, 10:48 AM

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste TTA,

you have added much value and a practical view on this matter.
I thank you for your clarity of mind and your approach.

pranams

sarabhanga

31 January 2008, 11:24 PM

How does 'eunuch' translate to sanyasin?

See: nAgAvadhUtam (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=4247#post4247)

suresh

01 February 2008, 12:20 AM

Caste is an extremely complex thing.:confused: So I'd like to know the following from the members, so we can understand each other better.

#1 Do you support birth-based caste system? In this system, a carpenter's son will be a carpenter. The advantage is that his job (and therefore financial security and the rest) is guaranteed. Disadvantage: lack of freedom to choose.

#2 If you don't support #1, what sort of caste system do you support? If it's guna based, the disadvantage is that it'll be virtually impossible to figure out which guna predominates, considering we're all a mixture of gunas. It will take forever to determine, and even if we do, there's no guarantee we're right.:( Advantage: Freedom to choose.

#3 If you don't support either, do you believe in the destruction of caste system altogether? If so, why, and what's the alternative, if any?

It's better to approach it in this manner. It'll give us a proper perspective. I do not agree with Soul's generalizations on upper-castes and sadhus, by the way, nor do I believe in fairy tales like "we are all one" or "there's no caste" and so forth. If that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with. I am a realist, so I feel it's better to face facts, perhaps also seek some solutions.

sarabhanga

01 February 2008, 02:30 AM

Namaste Suresh,

There is no reason to assume that varNa, karma, dharma, or guNa, must remain exactly the same for the whole of one�s natural life.

A brAhmaNa is born through the saMskAra of his parents, and if all saMskArAs are not completed in this life then it is assumed that he will be re-born to try again. The burden of karma is greatest for a brAhmaNa, and if he knowingly offends against his dharma then he may be reborn in a low varNa, and if his promise to yama is broken he will be cursed as a caNDAla for the next seven generations.

There is no reason to assume that varNa, karma, dharma, or guNa, must remain exactly the same for the whole of one�s life. Just as a brAhmaNa may fall by avidyA, a shUdra may be raised up by vidyA ~ and avidyA flourishes in the absence of a guru, while vidyA increases when an appropriate guru is found. So the solution for every Hindu should be clear. :)

Soul

01 February 2008, 04:23 PM

Bob G

02 February 2008, 10:12 AM

Hi Soul, Glad you came back,

For your consideration if you interested (?) : I feel that the lines below from K. Gibran reflect on important bits of wisdom that we come upon and gradually integrate within, and in doing so there is then more space in allowing others to also come upon and integrate the same for themselves. (granted there are serious complexities and complications in our everyday life and in the ways of mankind, yet the simple idea and actuality of allowing space for others to learn hard lessons like those below is paramount to unbinding those same complexities and complications that we as individuals and as mankind face)

"...This would I have you remember in remembering me:

That which seems most feeble and bewildered in you is the strongest and most determined.

Is it not your breath that has erected and hardened the structure of your bones?

And is it not a dream which none of you remember having dreamt that built your city and fashioned all there is in it?

Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else,

And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound.

But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well.

The veil that clouds your eyes shall be lifted by the hands that wove it,

And the clay that fills your ears shall be pierced by those fingers that kneaded it. And you shall see And you shall hear.

Yet you shall not deplore having known blindness, nor regret having been deaf.

For in that day you shall know the hidden purposes in all things,
And you shall bless darkness as you would bless light..."

Good day,
Om

sarabhanga

12 February 2008, 06:01 PM

Aboriginal culture in Australia has been ravaged by European (Christian) occupation for more than 200 years, and now (in general) it is a pale reflection of its original condition, and there are many social problems (alcoholism, abuse of children and women, petrol sniffing, rape, violence, etc., etc.). This is not to say that their traditional culture has not survived in some remote communities, but past government policies involved separating aboriginal children from their families, and sending inland natives to the coast and coastal natives inland, and Christian missions were established in even the most remote areas, and new settlers took it upon themselves to rid the land of its original inhabitants (or at least get them civilized, i.e. Christianized). And any serious objectors were simply rounded up and shot or imprisoned. So the traditional understanding is now highly fragmented, and much has been lost, and the few tribal elders remaining with any traditional knowledge are very important to the whole aboriginal community.

Namaste,

Today, the Australian Government has made an apology (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/apology/) to the Aboriginal communities! :)

sarabhanga

12 February 2008, 07:31 PM

Today, the Australian Government has made an apology (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/apology/)

[from HeraldSun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23206474-661,00.html) News]

Mr Rudd told the story of an elderly indigenous woman, part of the stolen generation, who he visited a few days ago.

"An elegant, eloquent and wonderful woman in her 80s full of life, full of funny stories despite what has happened in her life's journey,'' the Prime Minister said.

Mr Rudd said his friend told him of the love and warmth she felt while growing up with her family in an Aboriginal community just outside Tennant Creek.

In the early 1930s, at the age of four, she remembers being taken away by "the welfare men''.

"Her family had feared that day and had dug holes in the creek bank where the children could run and hide,'' Mr Rudd said.

They brought a truck, two white men and an Aboriginal stockman who found the hiding children and herded them into the truck.

She remembered her mother clinging onto the side of the truck, with tears flowing down her cheeks as it drove off.

She never saw her mother again.

After living in Alice Springs for a "few years'', government policy changed and the young girl was handed over to the missions.

"The kids were simply told to line up in three lines ... those on the left were told they had become Catholics, those in the middle, Methodist and those on the right, Church of England,'' Mr Rudd said.

"That's how the complex questions of post-reformation theology were resolved in the Australian outback in the 1930s.

"It was as crude as that.''

She didn't leave the island mission until she was 16 when she went to Darwin to work as a "domestic''.

When the Prime Minister asked his friend what of her story she wanted told she answered: "All mothers are important.''

"Families, keeping them together is very important, it's a good thing that you are surrounded by love and that love is passed down the generations - that's what gives you happiness.''

This was just one of tens of thousands of stories of forced separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, Mr Rudd said.

devotee

25 February 2008, 01:41 AM

Namaste Sarabhanga ji,

That is a heart-rending story !

The Church have their hands full of blood with such & even more brutal stories ! Why does God allow such atrocities in the name of God is beyond my understanding.

Regards

sarabhanga

03 March 2008, 04:50 AM

May all know the honey of Brahma

Namaste Soul,

My comment about �destruction of hinduism� was harsh, and I certainly don�t think that is your aim. The intention was sarcastic, and sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. :o

I have been trying to explain the importance of varNa and Ashrama in a proper appreciation of hindu dharma, and it is misunderstanding of varNAshrama dharma that has allowed the kind of corruptions that you rightly abhor.

But faced with insistence that the whole �caste system� must go, along with implications that sannyAsins represent the heart of that corruption, I only wanted you to stop and think about the ancient varNAshrama cakram before demanding its total abolition.

There is a perfect baby in the bath-water and those who are blind to its existence, or view it as an unfortunate mutation, would cast it down the drain!

soham3

04 March 2008, 10:59 PM

Rare intuition & insight have gone into making of the caste system. Genius needed for it was much higher than that needed for theory of relativity. World will come to grinding halt & end after caste system breaks & purity of blood gets diluted. A person having brahmin & shudra blood in him is more dangerous than a shudra.

suresh

05 March 2008, 02:44 PM

Namaste,

Today, the Australian Government has made an apology (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/apology/) to the Aboriginal communities! :)

I am not familiar with this, even though I've spent time in Australia as a young man. Can you please tell me why aborigines deserve an apology? Apology for what, exactly? If it's about the stolen generation, wasn't that done for the good of the aboriginal children, who until then had no education or even a decent life in their own (aboriginal) homes? My own experience has been very negative, these aboriginal people are very loud, rude and uncivilized. I just don't see why they deserve sympathy at all.:rolleyes:

clito

13 August 2009, 10:16 AM

this world should be ruled by the anahata chakra, this is the only way for harmonic existence . there shouldnt be any place for cruel and unfair castes system.

harekrishna

26 August 2009, 12:10 PM

I am new to this thread. However, when I see the response of people like TatTwamAsi, Sarabhanga among others, it is extremely disappointing. It is actually racist in nature, and insulting to the vast majority of Hindu people. Brahmanas like them have created misleading literature over the years to suppress the vast majority of Hindus.

If Brahmanas are the chosen people from God, then Vivekanand would have been born one, but he was not. Mahatma Gandhi would have been born one, he was not. Most popular Yoga teacher in current India Ramdeo would have been born one, but he is not. Go and figure!

It is because of attitudes like this, that the vast majority of Hindus have left the Hinduism fold to go to other religions, who create more egalitarian soceities.

I was recently visiting my village. While talking with Dalit and very low caste people, I started realizing that many of them have converted. You would not have known by their names or behavior, they remain the same. When asked why they have done so, they said that the Pandits anyway dont come to their home for any ceremony. Moreover, they have created unnecessary religious ceremonies to extract money unscrupulously. So, there you go, your brahmanas by birth.

I have been reading Vedas/Upanishadas and they are indeed noble in thought. It is a sad commentary that it has been degraded to this pitiable situation in this era. The response of so-called educated people (who are very much like white people justiying slavery in 19th century) brings Hindu soceity to such a sad situation.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

Ganeshprasad

26 August 2009, 03:59 PM

Pranam

I am new to this thread.

Welcome

However, when I see the response of people like TatTwamAsi, Sarabhanga among others, it is extremely disappointing.

How?

It is actually racist in nature, and insulting to the vast majority of Hindu people.

What Varna ashram?

Brahmanas like them have created misleading literature over the years to suppress the vast majority of Hindus.

care to name a Brahmana, and what Literature have they created, that are misleading?

If Brahmanas are the chosen people from God, then Vivekanand would have been born one, but he was not. Mahatma Gandhi would have been born one, he was not. Most popular Yoga teacher in current India Ramdeo would have been born one, but he is not. Go and figure!

Who said that they are chosen?
After many many birth one gets a chance to be born as a human, and after many births one may be born as a Brahmin, it is result of one's Karma.Try understand Karma, ask your self is Birth an accident, a random lottery to be born poor or rich, intelligent or dumb

It is because of attitudes like this, that the vast majority of Hindus have left the Hinduism fold to go to other religions, who create more egalitarian soceities.

Vast majority! have you got any evidence?
I live in western country, i dont see equality

I have been reading Vedas/Upanishadas and they are indeed noble in thought. It is a sad commentary that it has been degraded to this pitiable situation in this era. The response of so-called educated people (who are very much like white people justiying slavery in 19th century) brings Hindu soceity to such a sad situation.

Again you are making accusation without elaborating.
Sad fact is people have deviated from scriptures and its purpose, in pursuit of material life and are finding scapegoat in Brahmans for their failures

Jai Shree Krishna

harekrishna

27 August 2009, 05:36 AM

Thank you Ganesh Prasad for your replies. People, who are not familiar with Indian small towns and villages, are really not coming face to face with the horrible face that caste has taken on. Lower caste people and Dalits have been hounded out of a respectable living by the people of higher caste for centuries. In the last decades, with the guarantees of Indian constituttion, the situation has improved. However, unless people fail to realize the destruction it has caused, Indian Hindu soceity is going to be more fractured, and may ultimately break down.
Please understand that I myself am a new comer to the original writings of Vedic Hindu scriptures, so feel free to add your expert comments
to refute and clarify my positions.
> What Varna ashram?
I said caste system is racial in nature if it assigns hierarchy solely on the basis of birth. Varna Ashram can be thought of being different. It is more of a division of labour based on Gunas. Caste as it exists today is hereditary, and is a major social structure in Indian soceity.

Purush Sukta (Yajur veda) describes the following as a precursor to the Varna System.
ब्राह्मणो अस्य मुखमासीत । बाहो राजन्य: कृत: ।
उरु तदस्य यद्वैश्य: । पद्भ्यां शूद्रो अजायत: ।
His mouth became the brahmana, arms became the kshatriya. His thighs became Vaishya, Shudras came out of the legs.
It stops there, and does not go on to say that a brahmana has to be born into a brahman familiy. I am not even sure if there are verses in the major Vedic treatises, even indicating this type of philosophy.

Furthermore, when Yudhisthira asked by Yaksha in Vana Parva -
"By what, O king, birth, behaviour, study or learning doth a person become a Brahmana?"
Yudhisthira answers
"It is neither birth, nor study, nor learning, that is the cause of Brahmanahood, without doubt, it is behaviour that constitutes it"
I must add that you could find other verses which totally contradicts it, and that is when we need to go to our own selves, our own
oceities to get to a fair system. In today's soceity, the earlier concepts of ones doing one's work according to ones Guna has been changed to the sorry state of caste based hierarchies in today's India.
> care to name a Brahmana, and what Literature have they created, that are misleading?
I am quoting some verses of Manu smriti -
Chapter 7.24 All castes would be corrupted (by intermixture) all barriers would be broken through, and all men would rage in consequence of
mistakes with restpect to punishment.
namely inter-caste marriage would lead to punishment. Sure, today, in villages people are killing each other for this.
I am sure one could get lots of quotes from various books which would sound bad. However, I believe that many of them are not sanctioned by vedic knowledge. So one must go to the source, to one's reading and experience to get to the truth.

> After many many birth one gets a chance to be born as a human, and after many births one may be born as a Brahmin, it is result of one's Karma.Try understand Karma, ask your self is Birth an accident, a random lottery to be born poor or rich, intelligent or dumb

As I said, the occupation is by Guna and not by birth. Karmic effects need not take many births to take effect. A person can make a change from a Tamasic to Sattvic Guna type person in years, if not in months. One needs to be provided appropriate environment, encouragement and training for this. Being born in a learned family definitely helps, but it is not required. Today, so-called Brahmanas of India make a mockery of Sattvic Gunas. It is not right to throw people out of the city/village boundaries, because they happen to be Chandala (people in India did that). The irony is that the same people would keep dogs in their houses without any scruples. The system made a man worse than an animal.

> Vast majority! have you got any evidence?

May be not vast majority. But, all of Pakistan, Bangladesh was Hindu once. Many Vedic scriptures originated in these regions. It would be wrong to assume that people converted only because of force, many of them did to escape the oppressive caste systems. I see that playing today in many regions in India. This time, people are converting to Christianity.

> Sad fact is people have deviated from scriptures and its purpose, in pursuit of material life and are finding scapegoat in Brahmans for their failures

Here I agree that people are in pursuit of material life, and deviated from the true paths. Everyone is guilty. I would just add that just because someone is born Brahmana does not make him/her a Brahmana. Today, in India, we find very few people with the qualities of a true Brahmana.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

Ganeshprasad

27 August 2009, 04:50 PM

Pranam

People, who are not familiar with Indian small towns and villages, are really not coming face to face with the horrible face that caste has taken on. Lower caste people and Dalits have been hounded out of a respectable living by the people of higher caste for centuries.

This is the result of many factors, centuries of subjugation by foreign rules and their lies have really made Hindu confused and has blamed Dharma for all the wrong.
Have you ever wondered why they all came in search of India?
Yes I have lived in villages, my own parents were forced to leave in search of livelihood, they never blamed Varna ashram for their plight.

In the last decades, with the guarantees of Indian constituttion, the situation has improved. However, unless people fail to realize the destruction it has caused, Indian Hindu soceity is going to be more fractured, and may ultimately break down.

Indian constitution is a farce, by all means we have to, and must look after all the citizen of the country but not at any price, now the role gets reversed intelligent gets behind and those who don�t deserve runs the country.

Idi Amin of Uganda had the same idea, got rid of Asians thinking Africans will just walk in to their shoes and run every thing smoothly, it just don�t work like that.

Please understand that I myself am a new comer to the original writings of Vedic Hindu scriptures, so feel free to add your expert comments to refute and clarify my positions.

We all start from where we left off previously, Vedic knowledge is eternal, Verna ashram is given by non other then the Lord him self. We can only argue from what scripture says and not from our personal opinion.

I said caste system is racial in nature if it assigns hierarchy solely on the basis of birth. Varna Ashram can be thought of being different. It is more of a division of labour based on Gunas. Caste as it exists today is hereditary, and is a major social structure in Indian soceity.

If Birth is not based on Guna Karma, looking at some ones dire or favourable situations we might as well conclude there is no justice, there is so much inequality.

Purush Sukta (Yajur veda) describes the following as a precursor to the Varna System.
ब्राह्मणो अस्य मुखमासीत । बाहो राजन्य: कृत: ।
उरु तदस्य यद्वैश्य: । पद्भ्यां शूद्रो अजायत: ।
His mouth became the brahmana, arms became the kshatriya. His thighs became Vaishya, Shudras came out of the legs.
It stops there, and does not go on to say that a brahmana has to be born into a brahman familiy. I am not even sure if there are verses in the major Vedic treatises, even indicating this type of philosophy.

Here is what Lord Krishna says

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. (8.06)

Such a yogi is born in a family of wise transcendentalists. A birth like this is very difficult, indeed, to obtain in this world. (6.42)

After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
karanam guna-sango 'sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

The Purusha associating with Prakriti (or matter), enjoys the Gunas of Prakriti. Attachment to the Gunas (due to ignorance caused by previous Karma) is the cause of the birth of Jeevaatma in good and bad wombs. (13.22)

Furthermore, when Yudhisthira asked by Yaksha in Vana Parva -
"By what, O king, birth, behaviour, study or learning doth a person become a Brahmana?"
Yudhisthira answers
"It is neither birth, nor study, nor learning, that is the cause of Brahmanahood, without doubt, it is behaviour that constitutes it"

Behaviour will follow from the training one is given at an early stage and traditionally training is given according to ones gotra there is no way round it. Birth affords the only measurable prerequisite for determining how a child should be trained.

I must add that you could find other verses which totally contradicts it, and that is when we need to go to our own selves, our own societies to get to a fair system.

There is no contradictions in the scriptures, fault lies in our understanding of it, by our self we have no chance in hell to have fair system, man is intrinsically selfish, we have made a real mess of this world, only perfect system is given by God.

I am quoting some verses of Manu smriti -
Chapter 7.24 All castes would be corrupted (by intermixture) all barriers would be broken through, and all men would rage in consequence of
mistakes with restpect to punishment.
namely inter-caste marriage would lead to punishment. Sure, today, in villages people are killing each other for this.

Problem is with our understanding again, if one understand the real reason for dharma, such event would not happen, today the society do not follow dharma as it was, this problem of killing and fighting based on prejudiced is prevalent in all society.
　

As I said, the occupation is by Guna and not by birth. Karmic effects need not take many births to take effect. A person can make a change from a Tamasic to Sattvic Guna type person in years, if not in months. One needs to be provided appropriate environment, encouragement and training for this. Being born in a learned family definitely helps, but it is not required. Today, so-called Brahmanas of India make a mockery of Sattvic Gunas. It is not right to throw people out of the city/village boundaries, because they happen to be Chandala (people in India did that). The irony is that the same people would keep dogs in their houses without any scruples. The system made a man worse than an animal.

You have grand ideas but it is not workable, people can not change varna at whim, besides the training begins at young age, there is no question of trial and error.

For your info, there is no varna called chandla,
today brahmana have no rights infect no one has right to decide throw people out, but yes rich and powerful do exclude outsider to come in in their society but then this has nothing to do with Dharma. There was this actor wanted to bye a house in certain area in Mumbai if you remember recently.
　

May be not vast majority. But, all of Pakistan, Bangladesh was Hindu once. Many Vedic scriptures originated in these regions. It would be wrong to assume that people converted only because of force, many of them did to escape the oppressive caste systems. I see that playing today in many regions in India. This time, people are converting to Christianity.

You need to refresh your history some what, even today without the inducement there would be no conversion, no Hindu who knows his dharma would even consider such a thought.
　

Here I agree that people are in pursuit of material life, and deviated from the true paths. Everyone is guilty. I would just add that just because someone is born Brahmana does not make him/her a Brahmana. Today, in India, we find very few people with the qualities of a true Brahmana.

A brahmna born in the family will always be known as a Brahman, history will prove that, weather he comands respect of anyone will depend on his character.

Jai Shree Krishna

TatTvamAsi

27 August 2009, 08:33 PM

Are you Indian? If so, spend some more time reading the Scriptures and you'll come to better understanding, possibly, of Varnashrama Dharma.

If you're a westerner, I have some bad news for you; YOU YOURSELF ARE AN UNTOUCHABLE!

Next...:rolleyes:

I am new to this thread. However, when I see the response of people like TatTwamAsi, Sarabhanga among others, it is extremely disappointing. It is actually racist in nature, and insulting to the vast majority of Hindu people. Brahmanas like them have created misleading literature over the years to suppress the vast majority of Hindus.

If Brahmanas are the chosen people from God, then Vivekanand would have been born one, but he was not. Mahatma Gandhi would have been born one, he was not. Most popular Yoga teacher in current India Ramdeo would have been born one, but he is not. Go and figure!

It is because of attitudes like this, that the vast majority of Hindus have left the Hinduism fold to go to other religions, who create more egalitarian soceities.

I was recently visiting my village. While talking with Dalit and very low caste people, I started realizing that many of them have converted. You would not have known by their names or behavior, they remain the same. When asked why they have done so, they said that the Pandits anyway dont come to their home for any ceremony. Moreover, they have created unnecessary religious ceremonies to extract money unscrupulously. So, there you go, your brahmanas by birth.

I have been reading Vedas/Upanishadas and they are indeed noble in thought. It is a sad commentary that it has been degraded to this pitiable situation in this era. The response of so-called educated people (who are very much like white people justiying slavery in 19th century) brings Hindu soceity to such a sad situation.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

harekrishna

28 August 2009, 12:01 AM

Are you Indian? If so, spend some more time reading the Scriptures and you'll come to better understanding, possibly, of Varnashrama Dharma.

If you're a westerner, I have some bad news for you; YOU YOURSELF ARE AN UNTOUCHABLE!

Next...:rolleyes:
Well.. TatTvamAsi, you have taken my humility as ignorance. I am not saying that I dont need to learn more. I will respond to your last post later in the evening, need to take care of daily duties now..
By the way, I am an Indian, born and brought up in India. I had the good fortune to travel and stay in many parts of world as well.
HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

harekrishna

28 August 2009, 11:28 AM

Namaste!
>> Yes I have lived in villages, my own parents were forced to leave in search of livelihood, they never blamed Varna ashram for their plight.

I was talking specifically about the hiarachical structure of caste system, and assignment of caste on the basis on birth. Varnashrama has two portions - Varna and ashram. My argument is that Varna is assigned on the basis of behavior, karma, and not on the basis of birth. Ashram, as you might note has to do with brahmacharya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sanyasa. You are arguing that Varna is assigned based on birth. If you are not, then make it clear.

>>Indian constitution is a farce, by all means we have to, and must look after all the citizen of the country but not at any price, now the role gets reversed intelligent gets behind and those who don�t deserve runs the country.
Indian constitution, by being fair and equitable, unites a majority of Indian people for the common cause of Indian growth. I will leave it at that.

>> We all start from where we left off previously, Vedic knowledge is eternal, Verna ashram is given by non other then the Lord him self.
>>We can only argue from what scripture says and not from our personal opinion.
You are semitizing Hindu religion. The real knowledge of God will have to be achieved by one's self. Different techniques - yoga, japa etc - emphasize that. Personal experience of God (Ishwar) is the cornerstone, and the experience thus obtained is beyond the scriptures as well... Consider these yogsutra verses ..
2.20 The seer is nothing but the power of seeing, which although pure, appears to see through the mind.
2.21 The seen exists only for the sake of the Seer.
2.22 Although destroyed for him who has attained liberation, it still exists for others, being common to them.
You can see the world, and then the removal of the Vrittis for a "Shuddha DrishTi" is very, very personal. The knowledge, opinions formed in the process are extremely valuable, and also very pleasant.

>>Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. (8.06)

>>Such a yogi is born in a family of wise transcendentalists. A birth like this is very difficult, indeed, to obtain in this world. (6.42)

>>After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

All the above shlokas of Gita are fine. It says that you get a good birth based on your last deeds. But where does it say, that once born you are stuck with the family's professions. Where does it say that Veda can only be learnt by Brahmanas? To lend credibility, show me one verse from Veda or Upanishad, where it clearly says that Veda can only be recited by Brahmana, and Brahmana is one who is born in the family of Brahmana.
Most of the Gita verses apply to all human beings (they do not have qualifieres like - this is for guys born to Brahmana and so on..) In that spirit consider this -
3.7 But he who. controlling all sense organs and becoming non-attached, lives a life of communion through dedicated actions - such a person excels.
Once you are born (whereever..), it is important that the Indriyas are controlled by for life of dedicated actions. Such action will lead to excellence. And it applies to everyone. Dont insert your definition of Brahmana by birth etc.

>>purusah prakrti-stho hi
>>bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
>>karanam guna-sango 'sya
>>sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

>>The Purusha associating with Prakriti (or matter), enjoys the Gunas of Prakriti. Attachment to the Gunas (due to ignorance caused by previous Karma) is the
>>cause of the birth of Jeevaatma in good and bad wombs. (13.22)
I dont know if this is Gita 13.22. However, the translation if last two words "सदसद योनि जन्मासु" is not good and bad (human) wombs. here are the words and the meanings -
सत - true
असत - not true
योनि - different life forms (insects, snakes, human beings etc). It does not mean (human) womb.
जन्मासु - are born
meaning - depending on attachment to Gunas you will be born in different life forms. Born as insect, or asura, or whatever. On this translation, it means that one takes different life forms depending on the actions. But once you are human (born in a good or bad family), you are human. All human beings have the potential to reach samadhi. Being born in a family of good human beings is like getting into a good school. But it is start of the whole life of learning, living..
Here is another shloka from my favourite Ishopnishad saying the same -
असुर्या नाम ते लोका अन्धेन तमसाऽऽवृताः ।
ताँस्ते प्रेत्याभिगच्छन्ति ये के चात्महनो जनाः ||

>>Behaviour will follow from the training one is given at an early stage and traditionally training is given according to ones gotra there is
>>no way round it. Birth affords the only measurable prerequisite for determining how a child should be trained.
Do not change the meaning of the verse given by Yudhisthira. It clearly says that "birth, study, learning" does not give Brahmanhood. It is behaviour (or Good actions) alone that does it. Rest of the stuff is your opinion.

I consider your all other assertions to be your opinion and not Vedic in nature. I will leave it at that. Again I ask you to produce one verse from Veda/Upanishad which says where it clearly says that Veda can only be recited by Brahmana, and only Brahmanas are those who are born in the family of Brahmana. I will wait for it.
Else, I assume that Action is paramount to judge a person, and not birth alone. This is repeatedly told in Vedas, Upanishadas, Gita.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

Ganeshprasad

28 August 2009, 01:25 PM

Pranam

I was talking specifically about the hiarachical structure of caste system, and assignment of caste on the basis on birth. Varnashrama has two portions - Varna and ashram. My argument is that Varna is assigned on the basis of behavior, karma, and not on the basis of birth. Ashram, as you might note has to do with brahmacharya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sanyasa. You are arguing that Varna is assigned based on birth. If you are not, then make it clear.

I am afraid you are noy reading me correctly or else you would not ask this question, let me make my position clear, yes Varna is and was based on Birth, Sri Sarbhanga has made perfectly clear. if you can refute any of it without getting emotional, do make your case.
i have not much time to debate with you, i am off to sunny or may be rainy India for few wks, but i leave you with this

Mahabharata Shanti parva

"Yudhishthira said, 'Thou O grandsire, art endued with wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures, with conduct and behaviour, with diverse kinds of excellent attributes, and also with years. Thou art distinguished above others by intelligence and wisdom and penances. I shall, therefore, O thou that art the foremost of all righteous men, desire to address enquiries to thee respecting Righteousness. There is not another man, O king, in all the worlds, who is worthier of being questioned on such subjects. O best of kings, how may one, if he happens to be a Kshatriya or a Vaisya or a Sudra, succeed in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? It behoveth thee to tell me the means. Is it by penances the most austere, or by religious acts, or by knowledge of the scriptures, that a person belonging to any of the three inferior orders succeeds in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? Do tell me this, O grandsire!'
"Bhishma said, 'The status of a Brahmana, O Yudhishthira, is incapable of acquisition by a person belonging to any of the three other orders. That status is the highest with respect to all creatures. Travelling through innumerable orders of existence, by undergoing repeated births, one at last, in some birth, becomes born as a Brahmana.

...."Bhishma continued, 'Hearing these words of his, Purandara said unto him. The status of a Brahmana, O Matanga, which thou desirest to acquire is really unattainable by thee. It is true, thou desirest to acquire it, but then it is incapable of acquisition by persons begotten on uncleansed souls. O thou of foolish understanding, thou art sure to meet with destruction if thou persistest in this pursuit. Desist, therefore, from this vain endeavour without any delay. This object of thy desire, viz., the status of a Brahmana, which is the foremost of everything, is incapable of being won by penances. Therefore, by coveting that foremost status, thou wilt incur sure destruction. One born as a Chandala can never attain to that status which is regarded as the most sacred among the deities and Asuras and human beings!'" end of quote.

Varna has traditionally been recognised by birth, birth again is determined by Guna and Karma, so the cycle goes on, until one decide to transcend all designation.

Jai Shree Krishna

harekrishna

28 August 2009, 08:29 PM

Pranam

Varna has traditionally been recognised by birth, birth again is determined by Guna and Karma, so the cycle goes on, until one decide to transcend all designation.

Jai Shree Krishna
This position is not Vedic, as I had told in my earlier post. I also said that there are things added in other scriptures, which are not Vedic. They were added to justify some positions of other people. For instance, from the same Mahabharata I also gave the instance where Yudhisthira told the opposite of what you have written.
You could not reproduce a verse from Veda justifying your position. I will leave it at that.
HairH Om!
Hare Krishna

atanu

29 August 2009, 10:22 PM

This position is not Vedic, as I had told in my earlier post. I also said that there are things added in other scriptures, which are not Vedic. They were added to justify some positions of other people. For instance, from the same Mahabharata I also gave the instance where Yudhisthira told the opposite of what you have written.
You could not reproduce a verse from Veda justifying your position. I will leave it at that.
HairH Om!
Hare Krishna

Namaste harekrishna,

I agree fully that any discriminatory thought or act based on caste divisions is abominable because that is action against God Himself. On the other hand, a rose and a sunflower are meant to spread different flavours. There is no discrimination in understanding the followings fully:

Every soul have a common substratum, which only is the karta, bhokta, and drashta; but each soul has unique path which has to lead to a common home.
Envy of the qualities, duties and privileges of the other fellow souls, who are the co-travellers towards the common home, is the only detrimental factor. Attaining svadharma, which finally is to attain yuktama state, through one's unique way coded by Niyati, is the coolest way of peace and bliss. Wrong teachings, which promote comparisons and envy, hatred, and violence is antithetical to Sanatana Dharma (and I believe of every dharma).The great flux of globalisation of the last several centuries (no doubt unleashed by Ishwara Himself) has catalysed the sense of benchmarking through 'Us and Them' and 'I' and 'Them' feelings in negative ways. But surely all negative perceptions lead to the light that shows the good (auspicious) objective -- of collaboration, peace, complementation and final attainment of svadharma.

Moreover, the perception of the negativities are one's own state and not true in the fullness.

Om Namah Shivaya

Note: Actually, esoterically, 'the great flux of globalisation' is the expansion of Vishnu and it will continue, bringing in as if ever new situations.

harekrishna

01 September 2009, 05:42 AM

Namaste harekrishna,

I agree fully that any discriminatory thought or act based on caste divisions is abominable because that is action against God Himself. On the other hand, a rose and a sunflower are meant to spread different flavours. There is no discrimination in understanding the followings fully:

Moreover, the perception of the negativities are one's own state and not true in the fullness.

Om Namah Shivaya

Note: Actually, esoterically, 'the great flux of globalisation' is the expansion of Vishnu and it will continue, bringing in as if ever new situations.
Dear Atanu,
Namaste!
Thanks for your spiritually involved post!! I mostly agree with your thoughts here, though still need to read carefully and think through the words to fully comprehend it:) . Leaving aside the rose/sunflower comparison here (human beings are not plants!!), the Vedic way for a person to choose an occupation (which is what varna finally boils down to...), is by the Guna, behavior, karma of the person. Shrutis dont support the view that birth alone fixes ones Varna. In fact they are very similar to modern paradigm of "Equal Opportunity". People are different, and one must follow their own Dharma. Again, the Dharma that one has to follow is not dictated by birth alone, but by the Guna and Karma of the person at that time and that place.
There has been several nice posts on these, you probably have seen some other posts by devotee on this..
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.phpt=3821&highlight=caste

In addition, various sages did not have Brahmin parents, like Jabal, Vishwamitra, Vyasa, Valmiki, etc.. If Varna alone were decided on birth alone, this would not have been possible.

Even books like Manu Smriti say the following -
शूद्रो ब्राह्मणतामेति ब्राह्मणश्चैति शूद्रताम ।
क्षत्रियाज्जातमेवंतु विद्याद्वैश्यात्त्थैव च ॥
Shudra become like a Brahmin, and Brahmin too becomes like a Shudra. Born in Kshatriya family become one too. Similarly, by knowledge, Vaishya becomes one too!

Here is what Swami Dayanand Saraswati has to say in Satyartha Prakash.
Ques - Can a person whose parents are Brahmin, become a brahmin? can a person whose parents are of different Varna can become a Brahmin?
Ans - Yes. Many have become, are becoming and will become. For example, Jabal Rishi from unknown birth, Vishwamitra from Kshatriya, Matang from Chandala became one. Whoever is of knowledge (of Vedas) is capable of being a Brahmin and so on....
I will conclude my thoughts with this.
HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

bhaktajan

01 September 2009, 10:07 AM

I am not Indian Born.

How does Caste-discrimination actually manifest itself in daily life?

Does Caste-discrimination manifest in lack of school/educational opportunities?

Does Caste-discrimination manifest in lack of Work opportunities?

Does Caste-discrimination manifest in lack of Civil-Service Work opportunities?

Does it not occur only from person to person in provincial or 'Poor' neighborhoods or among Social-Clubs settings?

A brahmin Born man will not play cricket with a sudra born man?

In all other parts of the world these same prejudices and bias' and bigotry always occurs ---but it is based on the level of education/wealth that the 'other person' has. No education/No wealth = lower stratum of society.

I just heard last week Dr Gary Null say: "There is no clean water any where in India. Even the snow upon the Himalayas are full with toxins ---because of India's Government policy to pursue industry over the common good".

Charity starts at home,
Bhaktajan

bhargavsai

01 September 2009, 11:36 PM

I have to agree on the fact that Varna(Caste) was never decided on birth, but it was decided on the Behavior of the person as Hare Krishna ji said.

Even Manu Smriti says the same thing(as per my little knowledge).

I have to add a small point here from real experiences. I have had very many friends, and I am that sort of person who analyzes people closely. I have seen that most of the people inclined towards spirituality and God have always been from humble backgrounds and non Brahmins. Whereas, my Brahmin friends ask me "Should I taste chicken or not? How does it taste?". Here I was convinced that they are Shudras born into Brahmin caste, maybe caste system has nothing to do with birth, but by profession.

Vivekananda says that castes are nothing but social groups formed to protect the that particular group and to maintain their rights. Its like a Factory Workers Union or a Union of Directors, both these are castes and both these fight for their own rights.

Hence logically caste is never about birth.

harekrishna

01 September 2009, 11:52 PM

I am not Indian Born.
Dear Bhaktjan,
Caste and discrimination in India is very nuanced.

How does Caste-discrimination actually manifest itself in daily life?

In current India, there are two distinct social hieararchies. Heirarchies of elites and non-elites and, a hierarchy of castes. Elitist hierarchy is more common in large cities. Casteist hierarchies are more common in villages. Current trend is that for monetary (and other reasons as well), people are moving from villages to cities. Once in cities, most of them aspire to get into the elite class either by education or money.

Does Caste-discrimination manifest in lack of school/educational opportunities?
No. Mostly it does not. In a large city (such as Mumbai), they are mostly a face with a name. The whole idea that - his father did this, that etc is one. This way, urbanization is good for India.
In addition, India government provides reservations for higher studies. I believe, in their current form, it has been mostly helping elite lower caste people. They need to be modified to make it work better, but has become a sacred cow in Indian politics. (People dont want to touch it).

Does Caste-discrimination manifest in lack of Work opportunities?

Does Caste-discrimination manifest in lack of Civil-Service Work opportunities?

Does it not occur only from person to person in provincial or 'Poor' neighborhoods or among Social-Clubs settings?

A brahmin Born man will not play cricket with a sudra born man?

Look, there are discriminations, but they are less widespread. There are enough opportunities for people. People do tend to flock together with their own caste people, which is ok. Equal access to Education is becoming the great leveller.

In all other parts of the world these same prejudices and bias' and bigotry always occurs ---but it is based on the level of education/wealth that the 'other person' has. No education/No wealth = lower stratum of society.

Yes. This is the elitist/non-elitist division in India.

I just heard last week Dr Gary Null say: "There is no clean water any where in India. Even the snow upon the Himalayas are full with toxins ---because of India's Government policy to pursue industry over the common good".

Democracy and its policies in India work. It has got rid of famines, increased literacy rates dramatically, has given a sense of hope in indians. It is rolling along. This "no clean water thing not being in India" is a bit too much. In our school I drank water directly from the springs (called Jharna), turned out to be fine..
HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

TatTvamAsi

02 September 2009, 06:10 PM

I am not Indian Born.

Bhaktajan

And so you are an untouchable yourself.

Moving on, why can't people who bark about the same thing ad nauseam see that although VARNA is determined by one's character (GUNA) and action (KARMA), one's BIRTH is determined by one's character & action in the previous life (lives)! If this isn't true, how on earth can you explain the predicament of say the Kombai tribe in New Guinea who live on trees and eat wild pigs as opposed to the likes of Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Ramakrishna, etc. etc.?? Why is it that some kids are born to parents who give them the world (like the billionaires in the US and elsewhere) and others who are born to families in war-torn areas like Somalia, ravaged by hatred, violence and extreme hunger and poverty? IT IS KARMA! The person who is born in a hell-hole like somalia or saudi arabia does so due to his own will! The jIvAtmA chooses WHERE, WHEN, and to WHOM to be born to!

rkpande

03 September 2009, 02:32 AM

I will quote from Vajrasucika Upanishads (translation of Dr. Radhakrishnan)

verse 2. the Brahmana, the Kshatriya, the vaishya and the Sudra are the four classes in accord with the vedic texts and is affirmed by Smrties. In this connection there is a point worthy of investigation. Who is, verily, the brahmana? is he the individual soul? Is he the body? Is he the class based on Birth? Is he the knowledge? Is he the deeds? is he the performer of the rites.

this Upanishads goes to examine all cases listed in verse 2, I will quote only one of the cases discussed, in verse 5.

Verse 5. Then(if it is said) that birth(makes) Brahmana, it is not so, for there are many species among creatures, other than humans, many sages are of diverse origin. We hear from the sacred books that Rsyasrnga was born of a deer, Kausika of Kusa grass, Jambuka from jackal, valmiki from ant- hill, Vysya from a fisher girl, Gautama from the back of a hare, Vasistha from Urvasi, Agastya from an earthen jar. Among these, despite their births, there are many sages, who have taken highest rank, having given proof of their wisdom. Therefore birth does not (make) a Brahmana.

then what about Manisha-Panchakam, by shri Sankara. he first tries to avoid the sweeper but then, in the last (the fifth verse) verse he says..

'.........such a person who so ever he may be, is one whose feet are fit to be worshipped ........

satay

03 September 2009, 09:16 PM

namaskar,
Haven't read the whole thread yet but...

I just heard last week Dr Gary Null say: "There is no clean water any where in India. Even the snow upon the Himalayas are full with toxins ---because of India's Government policy to pursue industry over the common good".

Charity starts at home,
Bhaktajan

Who is Gary Null and has it ever visited India? I was in India in March and found clean water everywhere, in the household taps, water pumps, in the lakes, in the rivers everywhere...
Not sure what is this Null talking about.

atanu

03 September 2009, 11:22 PM

Dear Atanu,
Namaste!
----- (human beings are not plants!!), ------

Namaste harekrsna,

Ya. human beings are not plants!! And so are different each proliferation of WORD. (But the root is same).

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu

03 September 2009, 11:31 PM

Moving on, why can't people who bark about the same thing ad nauseam see that although VARNA is determined by one's character (GUNA) and action (KARMA), one's BIRTH is determined by one's character & action in the previous life (lives)!

Namaste TTA,

Thank you for showing the cause and effect chain in full. Yes. Birth is certainly pre-determined by prior karma and God's distribution of karma phala. Going foreward, except those who remain hard of heart whom Lord hurls lower and lower into hell, every one will become Brahmana -- that is the Gatim -- the movement.

Om Namah Shivaya

bhaktajan

04 September 2009, 04:06 PM

Posted by satay:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaktajan http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=31959#post31959)
I just heard last week Dr Gary Null say: "There is no clean water any where in India. Even the snow upon the Himalayas are full with toxins ---because of India's Government policy to pursue industry over the common good".

Charity starts at home,
Bhaktajan

Who is Gary Null and has it ever visited India? I was in India in March and found clean water everywhere, in the household taps, water pumps, in the lakes, in the rivers everywhere...
Not sure what is this Null talking about.
__________________
satay

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Bolo Harinama,
First, Gary Null is not an India nor Hindu basher nor a religous commentator.

Gary Null is a world class holistic health activist who highlights abuses and false propaganda by mordern industries that are ultimately 'adharmic'.

His August 31st Broadcast contained the comment I quoted. he attempts always to exposes the selfish industries world-wide that ultimately exploit the lives of the majority of peoples.

I have heard only two comments on the Topic of Water Quality in India:
Gary Null's & Satay's.

Though we have heard of patented [non-regenerative] seed(s) for sale to India's Farmers.

I personally have read an Article in Esquire Magazine about the rating of the world sources of drinking water ---and I was amased at how rare it is to have proper drinking water at ones disposal.

I have to lend great credibility to Gary Null ---lest he has a hidden agenda [unless it later be revealed that Gary Null has ownership and thus future marketing/distributor-ship plans for selling Bottled Water in South Asia?].

If farmers must buy [non-regenerative GMO] starter-seed from the likes of Monsanto et al ---then it does not seem far from epic water rights and water/sewege purification programs that are out of reach for poor provincial subsistence tenant farmers.

harekrishna

05 September 2009, 04:38 AM

.... to the likes of Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Ramakrishna, etc. etc.?? ....!
If you are trying to aruge that "Varna is based on birth alone" then you have blown a whole in your own argument. Vivekanand and Aurobindo were not born in Brahmana Kula but Bengai Kayastha Kula. Now you are free to claim that Vivekananda was really not Brahmana!!
HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

devotee

05 September 2009, 06:16 AM

Namaste HK,

I don't think TTA is saying anything different. He is absolutely correct in his understanding as I see it.

"JAti" or Caste ===> Comes from the root "Ja" i.e birth or "Janma". So, your JAti is decided by your birth & that is again decided by your Karma of your past life/lives. JAti is closely linked with Kula ( means "ancestry" ).

Varna ==> There are only four Varnas i.e. BrAhman, Khastriya, Vaishya & ShUdra. This Varna is decided by one's Guna and Karma ... "ChAturya Varnam mayA Shrishtam Guna Karma VibhAgshah" (B. Gita) and not by birth. This is also endorsed by VajraShUchikA Upanishad.

So, by accumulating more SAtvik gunas & KarmAs one can attain the BrAhman Varna though he might have been born in a lower JAti/caste/Kula due to his not-so-good Karmas in the past life. Similarly, a person born in higher JAti/caste/Kula can become a ShUdra by accumulating RAjsik & TAmsik gunas/Karmas.

Actually, being born to a Brahmin caste parents should not be treated as being born in higher Kula unless the Brahmin parents have SAtvik nature & have knowledge of the Vedas. If those parents have lost their Guna & Karma then being born to such a "brahmin" (caste) parents can be called only a punishment due to the person's bad karmas & not a reward.

OM

harekrishna

05 September 2009, 08:23 AM

Namaste HK,

"JAti" or Caste ===> Comes from the root "Ja" i.e birth or "Janma". So, your JAti is decided by your birth & that is again decided by your Karma of your past life/lives. JAti is closely linked with Kula ( means "ancestry" ).

Varna ==> There are only four Varnas i.e. BrAhman, Khastriya, Vaishya & ShUdra. This Varna is decided by one's Guna and Karma ... "ChAturya Varnam mayA Shrishtam Guna Karma VibhAgshah" (B. Gita) and not by birth. This is also endorsed by VajraShUchikA Upanishad.

So, by accumulating more SAtvik gunas & KarmAs one can attain the BrAhman Varna though he might have been born in a lower JAti/caste/Kula due to his not-so-good Karmas in the past life. Similarly, a person born in higher JAti/caste/Kula can become a ShUdra by accumulating RAjsik & TAmsik gunas/Karmas.

Actually, being born to a Brahmin caste parents should not be treated as being born in higher Kula unless the Brahmin parents have SAtvik nature & have knowledge of the Vedas. If those parents have lost their Guna & Karma then being born to such a "brahmin" (caste) parents can be called only a punishment due to the person's bad karmas & not a reward.

OM

Thank you, Devotee. I would not have been able to put it better.
Jati or Kula is a social structure and can also be thought as a trade/social guild. This structure keeps changing with time and place, and has to do with the way the local soceity in India functions. That is why even when one converts, the family carries the Jati along with - and we have the Christian Dalit communities to prove that.

The discrimination and untouchability based on caste system is deplorable, and it is not sanctioned by Vedic literature. Missionaries heap the blame of caste and caste discrimination on Hindu religion. Hindus who argue that Varna is based on birth, make a direct connection between jati and Varna, which does not help.

HariH Om!
Hare Krishna

niscala dasi

11 October 2009, 06:41 PM

And so you are an untouchable yourself.
Moving on, why can't people who bark about the same thing ad nauseam see that although VARNA is determined by one's character (GUNA) and action (KARMA), one's BIRTH is determined by one's character & action in the previous life (lives)! If this isn't true, how on earth can you explain the predicament of say the Kombai tribe in New Guinea who live on trees and eat wild pigs as opposed to the likes of Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Ramakrishna, etc. etc.?? Why is it that some kids are born to parents who give them the world (like the billionaires in the US and elsewhere) and others who are born to families in war-torn areas like Somalia, ravaged by hatred, violence and extreme hunger and poverty? IT IS KARMA! The person who is born in a hell-hole like somalia or saudi arabia does so due to his own will! The jIvAtmA chooses WHERE, WHEN, and to WHOM to be born to!

While it is true that past life karma determines birth, you have yet to prove that birth determines varna. You have so far ignored all the scriptural evidence to the contrary. That it is present work only that determines varna is clear from this verse in the gita (18.44) : "farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labour and service to others" Obviously, it could not be farming and labour performed in a past life that determines one's varna- as we cannot remember such activity. Why would Krishna have given as the criteria for division, something that we have zero recollection of? In a previous verse, He told Arjuna :"Many births both you and I have had. I can remember all of them, but you cannot!" So, clearly, if one works in service to others, he is a sudra, and if he works at a business, he is a vaisya. Why are you complicating this clear message? Beyond that, the greater portion of the gita is devoted to learning to see beyond the body to the soul -that amazing non-dual substance that is the very essence of God- and is the same whether it happens to inhabit the body of a brahmana, animal, or those innocent souls you are so fond of calling "untouchable"...
There are numerous quotes supporting that birth is of no consequence to determination of varna. I have actually written a book about it, if anyone is interested. The book, "varnashrama, the Eight-petalled Lotus" is advertised on the vaisnava website CHAKRA, http://www.chakra.org/announcements2/DevadsSep28_09.html and endorsed by His Holiness Hridayananda Goswami, Professor Howard Resnick of Harvard University. It goes a long way to illustrate the extreme discrepencies between modern caste consciousness and varnashrama- the latter of which upholds all the principles of the vedas, and ensures the spiritual advancement of the individual and the social harmony of the collective; the former of which only upholds the principle of duality. One must always be careful to not discriminate on the basis of duality- Lord Kapiladeva in Srimad Bhagavatam even goes so far to say that if one makes the least discrimination between living entities on the basis of external considerations, his worship is useless as pouring ghee into ashes, and he will meet God only as "the blazing fire of death" Remember this whenever you do your puja! Also remember it when you feel inclined to call God's parts and parcels deroatory names like "untouchable"!

atanu

12 October 2009, 03:02 AM

While it is true that past life karma determines birth, you have yet to prove that birth determines varna.

Namaste niscala dasi,

Actually that is not what TTA said. TTA said:

Moving on, why can't people who bark about the same thing ad nauseam see that although VARNA is determined by one's character (GUNA) and action (KARMA), one's BIRTH is determined by one's character & action in the previous life (lives)!

Om

niscala dasi

12 October 2009, 07:54 AM

Namaste niscala dasi,

Actually that is not what TTA said. TTA said:

Om

Correct,but look above that. He has called a contributor "untouchable" on the basis of his birth alone. So clearly he considers birth as the vital consideration of varna, and it has been the belief of many a Hindhu.
There is an assumption that birth in a certain varna determines one's guna and karma, therefore one's varna. This belief is betrayed in TTA's example of people who are born in tribes who therefore end up eating pigs etc. Yet what he doesn't mention, due to his belief, is that if given a chance, such people could be educated in the vedic understanding, and could thus take to a pure diet and habits, and so forth. And we see this is a fact- many western born people and even tribal people have taken to the vedic understanding, reassessed their priorities and introduced sattva principles to their lives. So one has to distinguish between influences and causes. Birth may influence one's guna and karma, but it does not determine it. No one is arguing that guna and karma from a previous life determines one's birth in this life. That is understood. What is not understood, by many Hindhus it seems, is that birth is not a determining factor in caste at all- only the present life's guna and karma, as made clear by Bg 18.44...

Obviously, one can change one's guna and karma in this life. An angry man can become in due course, peaceful, and vice versa. Thus he may change career from a professional boxer, to a philosopher. As guna changes, so does karma, so does varna. For this reason, many great vedic saints hailed from humble circumstances.
"Lord Brahma said: If one is born in a family of brahmanas who are absorbed in hearing divine sound , but has bad character and behavior, he is not a brahmana. On the other hand, Vyasa and Vaibhandaka Muni were born in uclean circumstances, but they are worshippable. In the same way, Visvamitra Muni was born as a ksatriya, but he became equal to me by his qualities and activities. Vasistha was born as the son of a prostitute. ..." etc etc etc (Padma Purana, Srsthi Khanda 43.321, 322) If you need more quotes I can give them to you...running out of time and space.

LALKAR

12 October 2009, 11:29 AM

Correct,but look above that. He has called a contributor "untouchable" on the basis of his birth alone. So clearly he considers birth as the vital consideration of varna, and it has been the belief of many a Hindhu.
There is an assumption that birth in a certain varna determines one's guna and karma, therefore one's varna. This belief is betrayed in TTA's example of people who are born in tribes who therefore end up eating pigs etc. Yet what he doesn't mention, due to his belief, is that if given a chance, such people could be educated in the vedic understanding, and could thus take to a pure diet and habits, and so forth. And we see this is a fact- many western born people and even tribal people have taken to the vedic understanding, reassessed their priorities and introduced sattva principles to their lives. So one has to distinguish between influences and causes. Birth may influence one's guna and karma, but it does not determine it. No one is arguing that guna and karma from a previous life determines one's birth in this life. That is understood. What is not understood, by many Hindhus it seems, is that birth is not a determining factor in caste at all- only the present life's guna and karma, as made clear by Bg 18.44...

Obviously, one can change one's guna and karma in this life. An angry man can become in due course, peaceful, and vice versa. Thus he may change career from a professional boxer, to a philosopher. As guna changes, so does karma, so does varna. For this reason, many great vedic saints hailed from humble circumstances.
"Lord Brahma said: If one is born in a family of brahmanas who are absorbed in hearing divine sound , but has bad character and behavior, he is not a brahmana. On the other hand, Vyasa and Vaibhandaka Muni were born in uclean circumstances, but they are worshippable. In the same way, Visvamitra Muni was born as a ksatriya, but he became equal to me by his qualities and activities. Vasistha was born as the son of a prostitute. ..." etc etc etc (Padma Purana, Srsthi Khanda 43.321, 322) If you need more quotes I can give them to you...running out of time and space.

Namaste niscala dasi et All

You are missing something
can you explain about Ratnakar Sharma (Valmiki)?

niscala dasi

12 October 2009, 04:31 PM

Namaste niscala dasi et All

You are missing something
can you explain about Ratnakar Sharma (Valmiki)?

what about him?

srivijaya

13 October 2009, 06:06 AM

I have read this thread with great interest, as it's a topic I know little about. There is one thing I don't quite understand. If Untouchables and sudras are unwelcome in temples and not permitted to partake of the religious activities therein, why would any Hindu care if these people convert?

Surely, it is better for them to do so and better for Hindus as well, as any "ill effects" they would otherwise create would be removed?

Namaste

TatTvamAsi

13 October 2009, 03:01 PM

First, sUdrAs are not prohibited from entering temples. Who gave you that idea? A christian/muslim/communist or another untouchable?

Secondly, we don't mind if they convert to Buddhism, Sikhism, or Jainism. It's only when they are converted through coercion, bribery, and other forms of subterfuge that we Hindus take umbrage. This is especially true for the desert cults (judaism, christianity, islam). The latter two especially are a real problem because of their proselytizing nature. It is like a pot of rice with a little poison (christians/muslims/communists). These ideologies do not keep to themselves so they ruin the entire society they enter.

This is why Swami Lakshmananda in Orissa who educated the tribals in that area about these devious rat-bastard christian missionaries was simply murdered by those animals' bed-fellows; the maoists.

Nobody who has read about Sanatana Dharma and reflected on it will even think about converting to another "religion"; even ones like Buddhism and Jainism, let alone the desert cults like islam & christianity. Comparing Hinduism and the desert cults is like comparing an exquisite car like the Bugatti Veyron to a 1980 Honda Civic. :D

Partly why westerners are so quick to criticize the caste system is because they know deep down that they themselves are untouchables and so they slander India & Hinduism to no end.

Ah, silly untouchables. :)

I have read this thread with great interest, as it's a topic I know little about. There is one thing I don't quite understand. If Untouchables and sudras are unwelcome in temples and not permitted to partake of the religious activities therein, why would any Hindu care if these people convert?

Surely, it is better for them to do so and better for Hindus as well, as any "ill effects" they would otherwise create would be removed?

Namaste

TatTvamAsi

13 October 2009, 03:18 PM

While it is true that past life karma determines birth, you have yet to prove that birth determines varna.

The Scriptures clearly state what Varnashrama Dharma is.

Why can't you understand that although there have been instances of abuse due to misunderstanding of Varnashrama Dharma in society, it is NOT the fault of the system! When everyone follows their svadharmA properly, the society as a whole is PERFECT! It is completely against the idiotic, aka western, mentality of individualism! Sanatana Dharma does not stress importance of the individual because there is NO INDIVIDUAL to begin with! For society to function properly and the collective consciousness to be at a high level, one MUST NOT think of himself only! It has to be of the GROUP! When one follows his svadharmA, this happens naturally!

Look at the present state of society, especially in the West! Everything, from siblings, spouses, friends, family, colleagues etc., only ME/MYSELF/MY INTERESTS matter! That is why the society is in complete shambles! Their entire mode of happiness is based on one thing and one thing alone: SELF GRATIFICATION, usually through shopping!

No wonder they have such high divorce rates! In India, what do we do when we marry? It is not "husband and wife", but ONE UNIT! This is but a small example. If the whole society thinks and ACTS this way, EVERYONE can be content and there will be no suffering.

Varnashrama Dharma is a natural (DIVINE) system that describes the duties, capabilities, and tendencies of each group of people. Only when the person's strengths are emphasized will the society as a whole be successful. If everyone is out for his own self-interest, as most of the world is now, there will be a tremendous amount of suffering, disparity, and sorrow; again, as it is now.

If a Brahmin wants to join the NBA, he should be allowed to try! Although I wouldn't put my bets on him. If a sUdrA wants to study and do higher research in science, go ahead. Nobody is obstructing him. When it comes to real brahmacAryA, it is most likely that only a Brahmin will pursue such a path. Of course, there are exceptions as you've quoted but again, exceptions do NOT make the rule.

Why do you, and others, insist that mlecchas should be priests in the temple? Why don't you go insist that pigs should be allowed into the kAbA? I mean, pigs have feelings too you know! How dare the PUSSlim scumbags not allow anyone except the Saudi Royal Family and janitors into the KAbA? Go protest there and tell them to allow everyone into mecca! Go support the first black man who is trying to become the next pope! of course, it is only bad when Brahmins tell mlecchas to stay out of the sanctum of the temples due to sanitary and spiritual reasons!

Seriously, if this is only about 5000 years into the Kali Yuga, my God, we have another 427,000 years to go!! I sometimes wonder if there will be any Hindus left on this planet!

SATYAMEVA JAYATE!

JAI HIND!

Namaskar.