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Bhakti Yoga Seeker
11 May 2006, 09:08 PM
I was born a hindu brhamin

Nobody is "born" a Brahmin. I would prefer to see this bogus caste system nonsense kept outside of the forum. ~BYS~

sarabhanga
12 May 2006, 11:30 AM
Anyone who is born into a Brahmana Gotra is a Brahmana by birth; and it is only "bogus" when the appropriate Brahmana Samskaras are not followed !

Varna is intrinsic to traditional Hindu Dharma; and sects that have completely rejected Varna are commonly considered as "heterodox" !

Is this a forum for the discussion of Hindu Dharma generally, or would anyone prefer to set more exclusive sectarian guidelines? :(

satay
12 May 2006, 11:46 AM
Is this a forum for the discussion of Hindu Dharma generally,

yes!

BYS,
gotra is a big part of the hindu culture and we can not just drop it overnight...I know that's not what you meant but just wanted to say that...gotra or jati is a big part of indian hindus and I for one am not willing to give it up for anything...

obviously, in practice i am not kashatriya and only a shudra but by jati I am a kashatriya and it is a big part of my personality!

Jalasayanan
12 May 2006, 12:16 PM
Anyone who is born into a Brahmana Gotra is a Brahmana by birth; and it is only "bogus" when the appropriate Brahmana Samskaras are not followed !

However, even a person who is not a brahman by birth can be equivalent to brahman by practise

At the same time, brahman by birth but not by practise is not a brahman at all. As Shri Sharabhanga suggested, such persons are worth addressing Bogus

TruthSeeker
12 May 2006, 01:34 PM
However, even a person who is not a brahman by birth can be equivalent to brahman by practise

At the same time, brahman by birth but not by practise is not a brahman at all. As Shri Sharabhanga suggested, such persons are worth addressing Bogus

By practice of what?

Sage Viswamitra became a Brahmin (infact a Brahmarishi, the highest form of Brahmanhood) from a kshatriya by performing tapasya. So it is obvious that varna system is a spiritual classification. They are not watertight and anyone can become a Brahmin through penance.

Which obviously means that one cannot be Brahmin by virtue of birth, though it is the custom from an immemorable past.

Everyone is an avarna by default. When one becomes interested in spirituality and learns(hears) about it, he is a shudra( sushrUsha means desire to hear about Yoga). When he starts practicing the Yoga, he is a Vaishiya( vishati iti vaishya:, one who enters Yoga). When he is advanced in the Yoga, he is a kshatriya (kshatat trAyate iti, protected from danger which happens for a Yogi). Knowledge of Atma(Brahman) results in Brahminhood.

Birth based classification of caste is racial in character, though it has become an inevitable part of Hindu culture.

Jalasayanan
12 May 2006, 02:09 PM
Everyone is an avarna by default

Every ATMA is avarna to be very precise

This view if further corroborated by Vaishnav and Shaiva Siddantins. Both feel devotion makes one a member of their clan

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
12 May 2006, 06:52 PM
This is getting off-topic so this discussion on varna/caste should probably move to another thread. Anyway, for those presenting their opinions on varna/caste, I would expect scriptural references. In my comment, I was referring to Hindu religion and not Hindu culture. Hindu religion certainly has varna and I can provide scriptural evidence (in a relevant thread, not here) that implies that varna is based on action and not on birth. It sounded like the rebuttals to my post here were indicating that varna/caste is certainly legitimate in Hindu culture. I am not denying that. I am referring to Hindu religion not Hindu culture and I think most of us can agree that those two are not always the same. Namaskaar. ~BYS~

P.S. Even though I am a mod, my statements are only my opinions unless they have a "mod note" near them. So if I say, "I'd prefer not to have such and such on the forum" but there is no 'mod note' it only means that those are my personal opinions. It doesn't mean you have done anything wrong. Anyway, I guess it was my fault for kind of getting this off-topic but the varna/caste shouldn't have been mentioned in the first place. The OP had nothing about caste/varna and mentioning it in response had nothing to do with answering the user's question. It seemed almost as out of place as saying "I am a white male and..." when it had nothing to do with anything.

sarabhanga
13 May 2006, 01:28 AM
Varna is based on action and not on birth.
Since no action can be performed without birth, and one’s birth has traditionally determined (not through any obligatory rule, but in practice) one’s social and spiritual education, and thus one’s likely actions, I would say that Varna has always been based on birth. ;)

Birth is just the beginning, however, and the final status of any individual depends ONLY on action. :)

TruthSeeker
13 May 2006, 07:28 AM
Every ATMA is avarna to be very precise

This view if further corroborated by Vaishnav and Shaiva Siddantins. Both feel devotion makes one a member of their clan

I am only taking the meanings of the words themselves in support of my view. We know that anything other than a spiritual classification would be meaningless. A person born to a Brahmin is a Brahmin. See how absurd it is? His father maybe a thief, and thus not even a shudra. So how does this birth give him Brahminhood by itself?

In Bhagavad Gita, it is mentioned that casteism is based on social order. Again, it is questionable. Why should a son born to a shudra be a shudra even if he has the qualities of a Brahmin or has a deep desire for God?

That is why, we need to directly look for the meaning of caste in the word meanings of various castes:

Shudra is associated with sushrUsha which in common language means to serve others, which is what was usually followed even in he olden times. But sushrUsha( shrotum iccha) also means the desire to hear, and not just service. Since knowledge was transmitted orally in olden times, the desire to hear means to be interested in hearing the vedas and generally showing interest for spirituality. Thus a shudra means a person interested in spirituality.

Vaishiya means a person who enters.( vishati iti vaishya:). What has "entering" to do with being a merchant? It simply means a person who has learnt the vedas and the theory of Yoga as a shudra and ready to move with practice of Yoga. This is a Vaishiya.

Kshatriya means a person protected from danger. ( kshatat trAyate iti kshatriya). This could mean the normal kshatriya who is brave and robust in health, but it also means an accomplished Yogi who has conquered all dangers through Yoga.

Brahmin needs no explanation, a person related to Brahman or knower of Brahman is called a Brahmin.

If a person is born to a true Brahmin desribed above( a Yogi putra), then he is really an evolved soul, and hence the birth based classification is not wrong. However, the passage of time has ensured that classification of caste based on birth is almost meaningless as sufficient degeneration has happened. If this son of Brahmin does not realize the Brahman, his generation still carry the Brahmin tag for ever! That is the flaw with this order of castes.

Again, spiritual classification ensures that all human beings, irespective of religion will have a caste associated with them depending on their spiritual inclinations and status. Why should it apply only to people belonging to a particular land called India and a particular set of people? Were vedas so short sighted?

Singhi Kaya
14 May 2006, 04:42 AM
Nobody is "born" a Brahmin. I would prefer to see this bogus caste system nonsense kept outside of the forum. ~BYS~

I find many things which I don't agree to, if I have points I try to refute them and not lebel something as bogus or delete out stuff when it doesn't agree to my ideas~it's another thing I don't have a mod previledge like you.

Also noteworthy is that you pick up a word from a full senetnce, remove the context in which it was said and start attacking. Which one is out of context? My sentence or your direct attack on a hindu system without any provocation? I used the word only in the context of OP that it is easy to get confused in hinduism. It was an innocent reference~but I had no idea we have so much bigoted people here who will pick word from sentence and start attacking because they have hatred for it. Because of it we now have 4 posts on caste system in this thread, whereas I never mentioned it to start with.

Thanks to Sarabhanga for putting it up in right words.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
14 May 2006, 06:32 AM
Moderator Note:

This is really getting tiring. If you are not going to read what I have to say and then put words in my mouth that were not there and then engage in personal attacks against me, I will take serious action. This thread will be split to keep it on topic and irrelevant banter will be removed. The person who brought the caste system up completely out of context was not me, it was you. Your response did not indicate you read and understood my most recent explanation on this thread that my comment on the caste system was simply my opinion and not a mod note. You were clearly the one that inserted it out of context and then now accuse me of taking it out of context and consider my behavior "bigoted," "hateful," and "prejudiced." Your mention of being born a Brahmin had nothing to do with the question the user asked and obviously did a great job at starting a flame or off-topic debate because many if not most Hindus consider varna/caste to be a hot topic. Your complaint about Vaishnavas disappearing here was inappropriate political banter. This is your last warning because it is you that is causing all of these threads to go off-topic and you have done this continuously in the past with multiple forums, threads, and topics.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
14 May 2006, 06:53 AM
Since no action can be performed without birth, and one’s birth has traditionally determined (not through any obligatory rule, but in practice) one’s social and spiritual education, and thus one’s likely actions, I would say that Varna has always been based on birth. ;)

Birth is just the beginning, however, and the final status of any individual depends ONLY on action. :)

I think the confusion here has to do with varna vs. caste. Since varna is based on action and birth is determined by action, it makes sense that a person is born with certain qualities gained from previous lives. I would call this a "karmic birth." What I dispute is the caste system that ignores varna and instead applies the titles on the basis of ancestry, race, and economic status. Just because someone's parents were "Brahmins" doesn't mean that the child is automatically Brahmin. I'd like to see scriptural evidence pointing otherwise. I am talking about religion not culture. Pious individuals can be born in impious families and visa versa. Varna system is clearly in the scriptures. As far as I'm aware, the caste system is definitely not and is a gross adulteration of the varna system. Sadly, most Hindus that consider themselves Brahmins will walk around with that title even though no part of their lifestyle is Brahminical by any means. They think they are entitled to it because their parents were Brahmins yet their parents didn't hold up to Brahminical standards either. It is this ancestral nonsense that I disagree with. If people insist that it is part of Hindu religion for people to call themselves Brahmins because their parents, grandparents, etc. were "Brahmins" and yet NONE of them live up to Brahminical standards, then it is time to cite scripture backing up your claims. ~BYS~

TruthSeeker
14 May 2006, 12:54 PM
I think the confusion here has to do with varna vs. caste. Since varna is based on action and birth is determined by action, it makes sense that a person is born with certain qualities gained from previous lives. I would call this a "karmic birth." What I dispute is the caste system that ignores varna and instead applies the titles on the basis of ancestry, race, and economic status. Just because someone's parents were "Brahmins" doesn't mean that the child is automatically Brahmin. I'd like to see scriptural evidence pointing otherwise. I am talking about religion not culture. Pious individuals can be born in impious families and visa versa. Varna system is clearly in the scriptures. As far as I'm aware, the caste system is definitely not and is a gross adulteration of the varna system. Sadly, most Hindus that consider themselves Brahmins will walk around with that title even though no part of their lifestyle is Brahminical by any means. They think they are entitled to it because their parents were Brahmins yet their parents didn't hold up to Brahminical standards either. It is this ancestral nonsense that I disagree with. If people insist that it is part of Hindu religion for people to call themselves Brahmins because their parents, grandparents, etc. were "Brahmins" and yet NONE of them live up to Brahminical standards, then it is time to cite scripture backing up your claims. ~BYS~

That is the way Hinduism has been practised for such a long time. Nobody knows what might have happened. Certainly the present form of caste system cannot be the original idea. But there is nothing wrong in a person calling himself a Brahmin because he was born that way, because that is the social norm. It would be good if he would match that profile.:)

Caste system is meant to create role models, with shudra aspiring to be a vaishiya, a vaishiya to be kshatriya etc. The Brahmain is the typicaly perfect man in the society. Caste system should not eradicated like religions like Christianity by bringing down everyone to avarnas, but by raising every individual in the society to the highest standards - the Brahmin. When the society is elevated to such a high order, caste system will be unnecessary and can be disposed off.

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
14 May 2006, 07:12 PM
Nonsense. I don't care how long it has been in Hindu culture, it is immoral. The only people that support the caste system are generally Brahmins or Kshatriyas. You hear all the time people saying "I am a Brahmin." You never hear someone say "I am a Shudra." The caste system is based on ancestry, race, and economic status. It is inherently immoral to divide people up into groups just because of who their parents were and then call some groups better than others without any logical reason. If a person does not meet Brahminical standards, he has no business saying he is a Brahmin. This bogus caste system is similar to the United States dividing people by race and considering whites to be first class, browns to be second class, blacks to be third class, and indigenous to be fourth class.

The reason this caste system is bogus is because we have people calling themselves Brahmins when they are eating McDonald's hamburgers, drinking alcohol, taking little to no interest in Hindu religion and spirituality, and busy trying to make money in the United States. The caste system is a form of oppression and needs to be gone. There are a number of worldwide human rights groups as well as groups within India supporting the removal of this oppressive part of Hindu culture. You won't find it in Hindu religion, just in Hindu culture. While these bogus Brahmins are giving themselves fradulent titles, there have been centuries upon centuries of oppression against "lower" castes including "dalits" or "untouchables." There is no such mention in any Hindu scriptures and certainly no where do the scriptures support oppression and shunning of people simply because their familial background and economic status are different.


That is the way Hinduism has been practised for such a long time.

Just because something has been done wrong for a long time does not make it right. Slavery was practiced in the Americas for hundreds of years. That doesn't make it right. I hope you don't support keeping something you know is immoral.


But there is nothing wrong in a person calling himself a Brahmin because he was born that way, because that is the social norm.

Yes there is. If human society wishes to advance, it requires human beings to actually use the gray matter inside their heads and challenge those things that their hearts say is wrong. Human beings that would prefer following propaganda over an obvious reality check are complete and utter fools.

A point worth making here is why should such a Brahmin need to go around telling other people he is a Brahmin? Obviously there is some kind of reason such person has to repeatedly tell others he is a Brahmin. The only reason would be to prove to others how much better he is than everyone else. Another way of putting it is an ego trip. Additionally, these bogus excuses you make are quite sad to read in the 21st century where people are supposed to advance their thinking outside of the box. Your argument is that there is nothing wrong because it is a social norm. Slavery was the social norm. Supporting a social norm that labels certain groups of people as being better or worse than others simply because of who their parents were when in reality such people may or may not be quite different from their parents is immoral.


Caste system is meant to create role models, with shudra aspiring to be a vaishiya, a vaishiya to be kshatriya etc. The Brahmain is the typicaly perfect man in the society.

Again, are we talking about varna system or caste system? Caste system calls someone by a certain title just because their parents were of that title and has nothing at all to do with the said person's morality. In such case, a Shudra may indeed be a far better role-model than a Brahmin. Since so many bogus Brahmins go around supporting the oppressive caste system, it is likely that many Shudra victims of the system are indeed better human beings.


When the society is elevated to such a high order, caste system will be unnecessary and can be disposed off.

Unfortunately the caste system does absolutely nothing to elevate people. It calls a Brahmin a Brahmin for life even if he is in prision for murder. It calls a Shudra a Shudra for life even if he is a saintly person. Any society that needs such titles just to encourage people to be decent responsible adults is a weak and sad society. :mad: ~BYS~

Bhakti Yoga Seeker
14 May 2006, 07:15 PM
For the tenth time, I wish some people would actually read what I post before replying. I have clearly noted the differences betwen Hindu religion and Hindu culture as well as between varna system and caste system. It is quite noticable that no one here claiming that the caste system is part of Hinduism has acutally backed up their claims with scriptural evidence. Apparently, my argument is the strongest since I am simply disproving what nobody has even proven in the first place. If you cannot prove what you are saying, why keep repeating yourself? ~BYS~

sarabhanga
14 May 2006, 09:29 PM
The problem is foreign confusion of the English terms Caste and Cast !

The idea of Caste was introduced into English from Spanish in the 16th Century, with the particular meaning of racial purity, and particularly referring to foreign impressions of the social order they found in India.


varNa is primarily “a covering, cloak, or mantle; outward appearance, exterior, form, figure, shape, colour, tint, lustre, or beauty”.

And “colour” is used to indicate “race, species, kind, sort, character, nature, quality, or property (applied to persons and things)”.

In paricular reference to human society, “colour” indicates “a class of men, tribe, or order” ~ in Rigveda, especially applied to the Aryas and the Dasas; but more properly applicable to the four principal classes described by Manu.

jAti is a more modern term for this latter idea of classifying human lineages.


The English word caste is derived from the Spanish casta (from casto ~ “pure or unmixed” ~ especially regarding breed or race).

So that Caste is equivalent with Varna in the sense of “race, species, or tribe”.


The English word cast is used in connexion with “arrangement, shaping, or appearance”; indicating “the plan, conformation, or disposition”, and particularly “the assignment of parts in a play or some action”, and thus “the actors or performers and their individually assigned parts”.

So that Cast is “one’s assigned part or lot”.

Cast also indicates “purpose or aim” or “form, shape, appearance, inclination, stamp, mould, nature, kind, style, or quality” or “a dash of some colour, a tinge or shade”.

And so, Cast is equivalent with Varna in all of the remaining non-racial senses ~ i.e. as indicating “a covering, cloak, mantle, outward appearance, exterior, form, figure, shape, colour, tint, lustre, beauty, sort, character, nature, quality, or property”.


Caste is Jati, and Cast is Varna.

Jati (Caste) is intrinsic to traditional Hindu society; and Varna (Cast) is intrinsic to traditional Hindu Dharma.

For Indian Hindus, the two terms are hardly distinguished; but for foreign born converts to Hinduism the family relations of Jati can only be established through marriage or through one’s Guru Parampara.

And so, for an aspiring Hindu who has no proper link to any Jati or any Parampara, the whole idea of Caste is totally irrelevant.

Such foreign Hindus, however, should never deny the importance of Varna (i.e. Cast) in the eternal Lila of Sanatana Dharma.

satay
14 May 2006, 09:53 PM
Unfortunately the caste system does absolutely nothing to elevate people. It calls a Brahmin a Brahmin for life even if he is in prision for murder. It calls a Shudra a Shudra for life even if he is a saintly person. Any society that needs such titles just to encourage people to be decent responsible adults is a weak and sad society. :mad: ~BYS~

I agree with this. The way caste system is today, it offers nothing positive to the Indian society.

Having said that though...I still will never give up my jAti. Kshatriya I was born and Kshatriya shall I die even if spiritually I am a shudra.

People with shudra jAti actually have a lot of benefits in the Indian society. They get in medical and engineering schools with 50% marks or less. There are spots reserved for people who are from shudra jAti. In the society, it is actually not "useful" to be born in a Brahmin or Kshatriya family.

People with Brahmin jAti are not as bad "boys" as the west makes them out to be. There is some christian propaganda there as well. Anyway, I have read about your experience of pujaris in India and it is sad but yes, most of them behave like shudras spiritually.

I am not sure if I am making sense here but...the point is I for one am NOT going to give up my jAti just because it offers nothing positive to the society.

I am not sure if you are asking indian hindus to give up their jAti but if you are it is NOT going to happen not until stubborn people like me are around. :)

satay
14 May 2006, 10:09 PM
For the tenth time, I wish some people would actually read what I post before replying. I have clearly noted the differences betwen Hindu religion and Hindu culture as well as between varna system and caste system. It is quite noticable that no one here claiming that the caste system is part of Hinduism has acutally backed up their claims with scriptural evidence. Apparently, my argument is the strongest since I am simply disproving what nobody has even proven in the first place. If you cannot prove what you are saying, why keep repeating yourself? ~BYS~

jAti can not be proved by scripture. It is not part of Dharma. It is part of Indian society. Bhagwan never said treat the shudra or dalits like lower 'sub humans' it is people of indian society that chose to do it on wrong interpretation of scripture.

In my mind, still jAti should not be dropped because dropping it would be insulting your ancestors and insulting your ancestors one will take a lower birth in the next life.

One of the duties of a indian hindu is to give respect to his ancestors and there is a 'ryn' to ancestors that has to be paid, dropping jAti would mean not only not paying that ryn but actually insulting your ancestors.

Just my opinion...no scriptural support on this.

sarabhanga
14 May 2006, 10:24 PM
Supporting a social norm that labels certain groups of people as being better or worse than others simply because of who their parents were … is immoralThis is your own impression! Nowhere has it been stated that one Varna is “better or worse” than other Varnas!

The BEST Hindu is anyone who properly follows his/her own appropriate Dharma, as determined by Varna (both Cast and Caste) and Samskara (Preparation ~ i.e. both Education and Consecration)

It is not long ago, that one could guarantee that someone named “Smith” was actually a practicing metalworker ~ or that another named “Taylor” worked with cloth, or that a “Cartwright” or a “Wainer” actually knew something about the construction of carriages and wheels, or that an “Archer” or a “Fisher” or almost any Surname you can think of, was actually what they said they were.

“His Grandfather may have been a Carpenter, but his Father was a drunkard who taught him nothing, and now he has the nerve to call himself a Carpenter! And that Mr Priestly, who does he think he is calling himself better than others? It is immoral, and such bogus labels should be discarded!”

Really, BYS, please calm down and look at the matter from a broader and less personal perspective. Overly proud young Brahmins pulling out their sacred thread and declaring “I am Brahmin!” is foolish and offensive, and such behaviour should be condemned; but there is no need to reject the whole concept of Varna as it properly relates to Sanatana Dharma.

And, by the way, I have clearly stated (both here and in other Forums) that I am a Shudra, and that all true Sannyasins are Shudras (in the truest sense of the word).

sarabhanga
14 May 2006, 10:55 PM
Sanatana Dharma has always accepted the idea of Evolution ~ indeed Brahma could be translated exactly as the command to "Evolve!".

The foolish Christian dogma that each species is created exactly according to its kind, which can never be altered for all eternity, has surely tainted the original Hindu conception of Varna.

TruthSeeker
15 May 2006, 12:56 AM
This is your own impression! Nowhere has it been stated that one Varna is “better or worse” than other Varnas!


That is quite right - it is just like calling a doctor or an engineer superior to the other. Taken as a spiritual classification, there will always be people in all these castes( or varnas)

Taken as a social order, the society will crumble without any one of them - you need the Brahmins who serve as spiritual guides for others, kshatriyas who provide protection to the society, vaisjiyas who are the financial backbones of the society and shudras the general workforce of the society. Without any of these, it is bound to collapse.

The only problem is it has not been employed properly. Some priestly class have abused their position and called themselves superior. They made friendship with the ruling classes and made rules suitable for themselves.

Why, Bhagavad Gita is very clear on mentioning about these various divisions of the society.

As for the present society, this is how I view as:

Shudra is anyone who serves, includes any one who is salaried including the white collared jobs, and whatever your position. If you have to report to a "boss", you are a shudra no matter what you call yourself as!

Vaishiya is the employer.

Kshatriyas are people who have dedicated themselves to the society - selflessly serving others, running charity organizations etc. This could also include people who serve for the nation risking their lives - Red Cross, Army personnel, policemen etc.

Brahmins are people who have devoted their life to God attainment and provide spiritual guidance to the society. Anyone with material desires fails to fit this category!

TruthSeeker
15 May 2006, 01:18 AM
Unfortunately the caste system does absolutely nothing to elevate people. It calls a Brahmin a Brahmin for life even if he is in prision for murder. It calls a Shudra a Shudra for life even if he is a saintly person. Any society that needs such titles just to encourage people to be decent responsible adults is a weak and sad society. :mad: ~BYS~

Why dont you read what Kamakoti has to say on the matter?

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part19/chap3.htm

You are absolutely wrong about a Brahmin being called a Brahmin even if he murders. In olden times, if a Brahmin did any acts not conducive to his Dharma, he would be stripped of his Brahminhood. He would be required to perform prayaschitta ( atonement) for his acts, many of which are described in the Dharma Shastras. Failing which, his position would be miserable and he would be shunned by the society. It is not easy to be Brahmin in the society! Do you know that a Brahmin would get a more rigorous punishment for his crimes than a shudra? ( for an equivalent crime)

There is simply no authority to enforce this nowadays or for the past several hundred years. Else no Brahmin can roam about calling himself a Brahmin and doing all activities against Brahmana Dharma.

Try to go through the Dharma Shastras and you can read about the severe penalty a Brahmin would have to pay if he violated his Dharma. The laws are quite lenient on shudras and others in this regard, because they are just considered "evolving" and their mistakes are well tolerated.

Singhi Kaya
15 May 2006, 01:35 AM
Abuse of the caste system started much later as far I know. The over rigidity, denying other caste's of the oppertunity to do upsana etc were all medivial imports. If I'm not wrong varna system doesn't stop anyone from spiritual practices at personal level. Everybody has full rights there.
In Bengal for example varna system was almost non-existence till Mr Raghunandan established it not very long ago. And most medivial implementation was not smartism but shudraism. The idea was to declare as many people as shudras as possible so that few brahmins can enjoy the bliss of wealth~I'm referring to system of raghunandan. I think none denies the misuse of caste system in our society. One has to pay a visit to the cow belt to discover it. But that doesn't mean the classification by birth and varna system is all wrong~just because the western mind has made us to believe so.

kimtadbrahma
15 May 2006, 06:33 AM
The debate over whether jati and varna are determined by birth or by quality is an interesting one and it is difficult to reach a definitive conclusion. Of course, traditionally birth has been the determining factor and remains so to the present day. This view in relation to varna would seem to be confirmed by Chapter 18 of the Bhagavad Gita in the words, saha-jam karma kaunteya sa-dosham api na tyajet. Here saha-jam would seem to indicate that kshatriya dharma and kshatriya nature are what one is born to and hence varna is determined by birth.

However, when delivering his great discourse on dharma to Nahusha in the form of a serpent, Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata says:

"If the designated qualities of a shudra are not found in a shudra then he is not a shudra. And if the designated qualities of a Brahmin are not found in a Brahmin then he is not a Brahmin. O serpent, a person is to be known as a Brahmin when the appropriate mode of life is witnessed. When that way of living is absent then a person should be accepted as a shudra" (Aranyaka Parvan, Ch 177, vs20-21 and Shanti Parvan, Ch 182, vs8).

Also in the Mahabharata, the dharma-vyadha (righteous hunter) states:

yas tu sudro dame satye dharme ca satotothitah/tam brahmanam manye, meaning "When a shudra manifests restraint, truthfulness and dharma, I consider him to be a Brahmin."

Hindu dharma is like that, isn't it? There is always scope for debate even in the sacred texts.:)

satay
15 May 2006, 09:03 AM
One has to pay a visit to the cow belt to discover it.

What's the "cow belt" in India? Never heard of this in regards to India before.:)

kimtadbrahma
15 May 2006, 09:14 AM
I have never heard of a 'cow belt' either!? With regard to a statement as to whether one varna is superior to another, one might suggest that Chapter 18 of the Gita relates the four varnas to the three gunas and hence establishes an order of supremacy. And in Book 13 of the Mahabharata, Bhishma praises the Brahmins in a manner that makes it clear that they are to be regarded as superior to other social classes.

satay
15 May 2006, 09:19 AM
Shudra is anyone who serves, includes any one who is salaried including the white collared jobs, and whatever your position. If you have to report to a "boss", you are a shudra no matter what you call yourself as!


Suffice it to say that 99% of hindus are shudras (spiritually).

TruthSeeker
15 May 2006, 09:34 AM
Suffice it to say that 99% of hindus are shudras (spiritually).

The 20th century has virtually forced every one to be employed. A typical Brahmin is not supposed to hoard wealth, not even enough food for the next day. He is supposed to beg for alms ( much like a sanyasin) and feed his family everyday. He is supposed to court poverty voluntarily , restrain his senses, and perform tapasya.

You can see how Pandavas are seen begging for alms everyday when they disguised as Brahmins at Ekachakra. That is the typical way of Brahmin life. The society gives him all his bare material needs, and in return he fulfills the spiritual needs of the society. When Brahmins departed from this way of life, varna system has become corrupted.

Singhi Kaya
15 May 2006, 09:39 AM
Uttar Pradesh, Bihar ... it is a pretty well know term and accepeted term in political discussions

satay
14 August 2006, 03:45 PM
I saw this nice post on another forum. Also noticed that the thread was promptly closed. :)

Comments?

"
What a controverisal topic!!!!!
Whatever one has to say will be opposed by somebody else. The topic of caste system itself is an active volcano, eh?

Let me summarize the position.

1. Non Hindus accuse Hinduism of being racists due to the existance of the varna system.
2. A meek defence of the varna system being a man made creation is offered by some Hindus.
3. Another new excuse of varna system being unrelated to heredity is offered by some new traditions, with no basis.( on the basis of some physical quality as if there were ever a need to create groups in such a case)
4. All rishis and Acharyas of the land who are held to be from genuine sampradayas have upheld the varna system.
5. Those who are frustrated accuse others of bigotry and racism and even insult Acharyas. (Adi Shankara has been unwarrantly targetted on this thread but all Acharyas have had the same position on this issue)
6. The so called untouchability has no place in Hinduism, and no evidence of it. So all discussions should be with respect to only the four orders.
7. There is so much hatred towards Brahmins when Brahmins of today are generally no longer oppressing anybody else in this name. The so called backward caste enjoy all privileges and no longer want to denounce the system, and have ensured that varna system will last for ever. If Brahmins regain their old position in future, they will introduce reservation for themselves again, and do tit for tat. Spite never pays off.


So what is the deal:

1. The varna system is hereditary only as preached by Hinduism. Any other position has no scriptural basis or proof in day to day life. The existance of the gotra is ample proof for it. Those who are thinking otherwise for saving Hinduism are actually misleading others.

2. Even in Mahabaratha we can see instances of the virtuos Pandavas calling Karna as suta-putra and Drona cutting the thumb of Ekalavya. So this is nothing new. varna system is as old as Hinduism.

2. The hereditary system is not based on race or skin color or any discrimination, but a natural law of nature.(genetic law)

3. It is based on blood group typing with O=Brahmin, A = Kshatriya, B= Vaisya, AB = Sudra. Use your brains please and dont criticize our rishis.

Any justification for the above claim? Yes.

1. There are exactly four varna systems and exactly four major blood groups.
2. The blood groups are not mutually compatible and some are even deadly for the other. Not all humans are the same and are compatible with each other.
3. The all knowing rishis who knew about astral bodies and the atman are supposed to be knowing about blood groups isn't it?
4. The O group person may die on receiving blood from AB donor, and if our scheme is correct, Sudra is indeed incompatible with Brahmin.
5. Blood group is only an indicator of incompatibility due to Karmic reasons, and not the real issue. So if there were so many repercussions at the level of physical body, isn't it natural to assume that there can be implications at the astral body and more importantly spiirtual growth?
6. The blood group type being clarified as the indicator of many things including of Karmic origin, is it fallacious to think that all people are not equally qualified for practising certain aspects of religion?
7. I checked with the blood typing of 300 Brahmins, and more than 75% of them have O blood. ( more evidence needed to confirm the findings)
8. Physical and mental qualities may be related to the blood group, and certain blood groups may predispose one to specific diseases. This is well known but not well researched.
9. The marriage between incompatible groups may lead to still borns or lead to children with severe health problems. Only research can tell us.
10. There is more to genetics and heredity than we ever care about, and it is the basis of the varna system.
11. Bllood group inheritance itself is hereditary and not random. AB and AB can never produce O, while O and O can produce only O. ( Sudras can never procreate Brahmins while Brahmins can never give rise to a non Brahmin). 29 subtypes types of blood groups are known now and may correspond to many levels of inter-breeding. Mahabaratha mentions 14 types of kshatriyas.

12. The varna system is mainly aimed at the level of marriage and sanctioning marraige only of people with compatible blood, and also enabling the spiritual growth of all in accordance with their Karma. That is also the basis of arranged marriage over love marriage.

13. When we have deviated from this dharma, the world is now full of new genetic diseases with no known cures.

LET US NOT DILUTE ANYTHING WITHOUT RESEARCH AND EVIDENCE. PLEASE TRY TO DO SOME RESEARCH ON THIS IF YOU ARE INTERESTED. DOCTORS CAN CERTAINLY ASSIST IN VERIFYING THIS HYPOTHESIS. LET US NOT HATE ANY BRAHMIN OR SUDRA DUE TO PREJUDICE AND MISCONCEPTION. LET US WORK TO DECODE THE TRUTH OF THE VARNA SYSTEM. IF WE FIND NO SOLID CORRESPONDENCE WE CAN ABOLISH THIS SYSTEM."

saidevo
16 August 2006, 01:28 AM
"Are the Hindus going to repeat the missionary propaganda and deny the strengths of their own civilization or are they going to understand the institution of caste dispassionately?"

-- an article with a refreshingly different and positive perspective on the caste system at http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1155676617

TruthSeeker
16 August 2006, 03:16 AM
Thanks for the post Satay. I came across a similar article in a journal long ago, and it covered much more ground than what is presented here, unfortunately the message has been supressed and no followup research ever conducted. It is indeed tempting to connect genetics with the caste system due to the hereditary nature if it can be verified.(atleast the way it is followed in practice)

However I see no Hindu really interested in countering the false accusations levied by the christian missionaries upon our sages and charging them with bigotry and racism. Our hindu brethren is either content in ducking under the covers as if he does not care or he tries to divert the topic as if this system did not exist at all. It just makes our position more vulnerable and opens the doors to christian propaganda.

However, I think the caste system must be discontinued whatever the original motivation was, as it has proved to be more harmful than useful. It has become a power tool in the hands of politicians to control their vote banks.

In the Yoga tradition, the caste takes a totaly different meaning and it has nothing to do with one's birth, but is connected with one's growth in Yogic awareness. The only reason for the varnashrama is that people have to follow certain duties in life in accordance with Karma as revealed by their birth circumstances - there was never any truly any superior or inferior caste per se. The religions which do not have a four fold system are actually addressing a particular ashrama. For eg, caste system can be abolished by reducing it to the level of sudras or raising it to the level of Brahmanas or something in the middle. For eg, Christianity maybe addressing all its followers as Brahmanas or sudras and hence made no distinctions. But Hinduism is for all mankind, and infact the whole universe, and does not have categories such as infidels.

Strictly, a Brahmana is a person who strictly abides by the triple vow of truthfulness,chastity and poverty and others follow them in various degrees. When many Brahmans failed from this ideal, the caste system became a joke. That does not make it a wrong system at all irrespective of how it is viewed by others. If some policemen start robbing the public, you wouldn't blame the police force and abolish it, would you?

Skillganon
10 September 2006, 02:02 PM
Ekalavya. So this is nothing new. varna system is as old as Hinduism.

2. The hereditary system is not based on race or skin color or any discrimination, but a natural law of nature.(genetic law)

3. It is based on blood group typing with O=Brahmin, A = Kshatriya, B= Vaisya, AB = Sudra. Use your brains please and dont criticize our rishis.

Any justification for the above claim? Yes.

Is not this hyphothesis a very week argument. Their are non-brahmin that have the supposed O blood group. This argument is very weak. I can bring in more problems with that Hypothesis.

Is their any scriptural evidence for this?

saidevo
12 September 2006, 08:46 AM
Hindu Society is often trashed by the ultra-left, Dalits and Christian groups for its apparent belief in Manu Smirit. Ashok Sighal of Vishwa Hindu Parishad, here clearly explains that Manu smirit is not relevant to the modern Hindu society and it has been overwhelmingly rejected by our religious leaders.

http://sangh.wordpress.com/2006/04/20/test/

Incidentally, Singhal turned eighty today (Sep 12).

saidevo
15 September 2006, 11:44 AM
Kanchi Paramacharya Sri Chandrasekarendra Sarasvati's teachings on the varnashrama dharma:
(Source: http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1705&start=100)



Extract from the collection Hindu Dharma

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part19/chap3.htm

Organisations like the Arya Samaj have accepted the right of all to learn the Vedas and perform sacrifices. Here and there a Subramanya Bharati or someone like him imparts Brahmopadesa to a Pancama. This is not acceptable in the least. I am a representative and spokesman of the sastras. It is my duty to state that this is not permitted by the sages who created the sastras and assigned the duties special to each caste. The sages were known for their spirit of sacrifices and impartiality and they had no interest other than the happiness of mankind.

It is true that Brahmins have gone astray. But what is the meaning of creating a new class of Brahmins? It amounts to saying, "The Brahmin has forsaken his dharma. Now I will take it over." To take up another man's dharma, apart from forsaking one's own dharma is a grave offence, worse than nearly giving up one's own dharma. I have stated repeatedly that all karma has only one purpose, that of destroying one's ego-sense, ahamkara. What is the foundation of varna dharma? It is one's willingness to follow the vocation and dharma that belong to one by hereditary without any consideration of one's likes and dislikes.

So, though reformers may start a movement to throw open Vedic learning to everybody, only four or five percent of the people will join them. The remaining will continue to be in the old Hindu set-up. Also the few who join the new caste will have a sense of fear and a feeling of inferiority. They will keep doubting whether their actions will yield the desired result. If that be so, how will their minds be pure? It is not only the ego-sense that makes the mind impure but fear, the feeling of inferiority and being racked by doubts. Rites performed in such a frame of mind will not serve the purpose of creating happiness in the world. Besides, members of the new caste are likely to develop conceited thinking that they are doing what Brahmins by birth ceased to do or could not do - there will be a spirit of challenge in their action, a desire to make an exhibition of it, will be no sincerity in their actions. All told, neither they nor the world will benefit from their works.

If you believe in the sastras you must believe in them fully. If you are an atheist you could reject all of them. But to make a show of being very clever and twist the sastras as you like, accepting some parts or rejecting or changing some others, is an offence more grave than that of being an atheist. To think that Mother Veda should dance to our tune is also a great offence. Learning the Vedas in such an attitude is tantamount to ridiculing them.



Extract from the collection Hindu Dharma

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap6.htm

As we have already seen, we cannot sustain the claim that vocations are determined today according to the qualities of individuals and their inclinations or aptitudes. Also untenable is the demand for equal opportunities for all. To take an example: there are a certain number of seats in medical and engineering colleges. For highly specialised and new subjects like nuclear science the seats are very few. When the candidates possessing the same qualifications (or merit) apply for admission to the colleges teaching these subjects only a fixed number are selected. Naturally, it is not practicable to choose all. Would it be right to contend that all candidates, even though equally qualified, who want to do research in a new science like atomic physics, should be given an opportunity? All those who apply for high positions in the government will not be selected for appointment even though they possess more or less same qualifications. The government decides that we need so many doctors in the country, so many scientists, so many specialists and so many officials. In choosing them, a number of candidates are naturally rejected. This system is accepted by all.

It is in the same way as candidates are selected for seats in the colleges or for appointments in the government that a certain percentage of people are thought to be sufficient for the purpose of conducting the rites meant to invoke the heavenly powers for the happiness of mankind - and these few function on a hereditary basis. Not more are needed for such a task since all the other work required for the proper functioning of the society will otherwise suffer. This is the principle on which vocations are divided. People agitate for the application for the principle of equality (a product of French Revolution) to scriptural matters without realising that it has hardly any place even in worldly affairs.