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RamaRaksha
26 April 2008, 11:09 PM
I know this issue has been discussed sometime before but I just wanted to start fresh to get new thoughts.

I have compared Idols to Photographs of loved ones. People look at the photographs of their loved one and laugh, cry and hug them. Do they believe that these are replacing their loved ones? Not at all. They can surely see that these photos are not the real people.

Or say we go to a movie, the hero beats up a 100 people go thru a 100 car crashes and comes out without a scratch on him. We don't come out of the movie and try to do what the hero does, because we know it is just make believe.

The same way we are not replacing God with an idol as members of abrahamic faiths keep telling us. We can certainly tell the difference.

And here is the killer point - If I asked a person, "aren't the photographs of the loved ones that you keep in your wallet replacing your real flesh and blood loved ones? Would you at some point ignore your loved ones for the photographs"? That person would laugh at me and say I am crazy, that could never happen. So then why would you say that I might be mistaking the idol for God? The person saying it has little faith, he does not believe that God is real. If he had believed so he would not make the mistake of thinking the Idol could be God. Their lack of faith is coming thru.

Jigar
27 April 2008, 12:04 AM
Photographs are simply momentos, to take away moments of excitement. Replacement is temporary. Metro Goldwin Mayer or (MGM) Studios, the Paramount Universal theaters is famous for action hero stunts. But they dont do this to make you believe as much as you want to learn why or how.



Porbander _ Plate 9

TheLizardKing
28 April 2008, 09:39 AM
It's extremely dissapointing the amount of Anti Christianity sentiment i've read in my short time on this forum.

ohmshivaya
28 April 2008, 04:17 PM
It's extremely dissapointing the amount of Anti Christianity sentiment i've read in my short time on this forum.

Namaste:

Although I have been visiting this forum now and then, I have only just decided to contribute to the discussions here. Incidentally, this thread happens to be the first place where I decided to pitch in.

As for TheLizardking's observations: I'm sorry you are disappointed at the extent of unhappiness expressed over christianity in this forum. I don't read it as "anti-christian sentiments" at all (but you are free to think it so); rather what I notice is an honest and open discussion (call it revelation, if you will) of the extent to which christianity, as an institution, is threatening many ancient religions and belief systems. Ancient faiths throughout the world have faced so much antogonism and misery in the hands of the politically and economically powerful christianity. While much of this has been relegated to history in Europe and other parts of the west, with the role of church and christian institutions greatly undermined through secularization, in India, christian institutions relentlessly continue to launch powerful crusades in effort to christianize India (or in the exact word's of the previous Pope John Paul II - "harvest the souls"). It is no wonder that many hindus and other non-christians are deeply offended by the covert and overt operations of the christian institutions in trying to christianize India.

If the truth be told, there is no reason why hindus should look to christianity for any kind of spiritual inspiration. There is enough in Hinduism (the vast ocean that it is) to inspire people of all backgrounds and spiritual disposition. I often wonder why christians, claiming to be broad-minded, are unhappy that many Hindus will not accept Jesus as their personal saviour or view the bible as a book of remarkable revelation, and would spend hours trying to convince and coax hindus to accept Christ as their personal saviour and to accept christianity as a legitimate path, but would hardly think it necessary to try and coax christians to embrace HIndu ideas and numerous paths to salvation.

I have spent time in various Christian forums in the past, where my hindu viewpoints were least tolerated and most often blatantly rejected. My time spent in these forums was not to convert the christians, or get them to accept hinduism by any means, but rather to get them to develop understanding and subsequently tolerance so as to not have this compelling need to always convert people of other faiths to christianity and in the process destroy other belief systems.

I have rarely found christians with universalistic view, like the many visiting this and other hindu forums, debating with pious christians in christian forums. I think instead of spending time trying to convince hindus of the legitimacy of christ, christianity, and the bible, it would be well worth if such efforts ae directed towards other christians themselves, to enable them to open up to the other possibilities leading to the Divine. Why does a hindu need another God or religious path, when he has a wide spectrum of spiritual paths to choose from (Advaita, Dvaita, and the various sects), and which already has so many elements of christianity, that christians erroneously believe, are unique to them, plus a whole lot more?

Let forums of these kind not only strive to educate the Hindu masses and non-hindus who are curious about hinduism on hinduism, but also serve to do some damage control when christians launch attacks on other faiths by denigrating and distorting other faiths and their religious texts.

Because this is supposed to be a forum on hinduism, I see no problem in presenting the world as it is to hindus, as long as the tone is kept civil and abusive words are not thrown against christians. All that has been said in these forums about christianity and its activities in India may seem negative to some non-Indians, but one needs to understand that THIS is what the Hindus, particularly in India, are confronted with day in and day out.

yajvan
28 April 2008, 05:40 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste:

Although I have been visiting this forum now and then, I have only just decided to contribute to the discussions here. .
Namaste ohmshivaya,

a well reasoned post. I am hoping to read more of your contributions...


ॐ नमः िशवाय

ScottMalaysia
01 May 2008, 08:16 AM
I have compared Idols to Photographs of loved ones. People look at the photographs of their loved one and laugh, cry and hug them. Do they believe that these are replacing their loved ones? Not at all. They can surely see that these photos are not the real people.


This is the explanation that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians give to fundamentalist Protestants, who accuse them of idolatry due to the statues and icons found in their churches. Their main physical object of veneration, however, is the bread and wine which, they believe, becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ when the proper prayer is said over it by a priest.

However, in the Hindu tradition, such an analogy works for the pictures in home shrines. However the murti in the temple may, both practically and theologically, be considered to be God or the specific deity it represents. Some Hindu groups such as Vaishnavism consider the murti a form of avatar.

Jigar
02 May 2008, 01:06 PM
This is the explanation that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians give to fundamentalist Protestants, who accuse them of idolatry due to the statues and icons found in their churches. Their main physical object of veneration, however, is the bread and wine which, they believe, becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ when the proper prayer is said over it by a priest.




If you want to check out some Christian Idolatry, then you should take warning before looking at the details of such works such as the Foxes of Kylenikki. Detailed faces and paws. Beautifully painted. Mounted on finished-wood base with brass name-plaque.

CommaKazi
02 May 2008, 01:32 PM
One word: Representation.

Although in Christianity as I understand it, Commandment 2 says no idols or graven images etc., Yet people worship in front of crosses, wear crosses, to represent their faith, and of course the rebuttle for that is, well its an image depicting the lord or savior, the only problem I have with that is, in said commandment, "God" (no disrespect) did not say dont worship images, unless they are of me or my son, he said dont do it at all, so if we are going to speak of other religions idols being wrong, Christianity needs to take down its crosses and any other image. Just my two cents, not directed at any one person in particular

Sagefrakrobatik
21 September 2008, 04:38 AM
One word: Representation.

Although in Christianity as I understand it, Commandment 2 says no idols or graven images etc., Yet people worship in front of crosses, wear crosses, to represent their faith, and of course the rebuttle for that is, well its an image depicting the lord or savior, the only problem I have with that is, in said commandment, "God" (no disrespect) did not say dont worship images, unless they are of me or my son, he said dont do it at all, so if we are going to speak of other religions idols being wrong, Christianity needs to take down its crosses and any other image. Just my two cents, not directed at any one person in particular


What about Islam and Judaism both will say that Idol worship is blasphemy? How would you handle their critcism?

Sudarshan
21 September 2008, 05:19 AM
I dont know why Hindus must even defend this?

Christianity and Islam are subtle idolators - Jesus and Muhammed are their idols. Infact Jesus is a perfect idol because they imagine God in a human form. Muslims also have the kabba - they pretend not be idolators.

The moment you have imagined a form for God in your mind you have become an idolator. The mUrtis you make are just icons for the mental image of God useful for meditation.

What do christians and muslims think in their minds when they hear the word 'God'? They must have something no? Unless someone has already realized the Absolute truth beyond name and form, every devotee thinks of something when he hears the word God. This is perfect idolatory, If you think of no image for God in your mind, then you are a shUnyavAdin - I prefer to be an idolator rather than be a shUnyavAdi.

Christians and muslims are either nihilists or subtle idolators. Let them pick their choice. Why should we even bother defending this?