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yajvan
26 May 2008, 08:51 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste,

There is a beautiful verse in the 2nd Chapter, 69th śloka of the Bhāgavad gītā.
It says, what is night (niśā) for all beings (bhūtānām) is day or wakefulness (jāgarti) for the self-controlled (saṁyamī¹); Yet that which is day (jāgarti) for all beings is niśā ( night) for the muni (some write muneḥ). In this verse we can assume muni is ~ equal to saṁyamī.

I think the wisdom of ācārya Vyāsa is very insightful; he offers potent meanings (saṃketa) into this śloka and as he does so often throughout the gītā.

Any one care to give their views of this śloka or verse?

pranams


words used

saṁyamī or that native with saṁyam ( some may write saMyam) संयम् to hold together , hold in , hold fast , restrain , curb , control , govern , guide; But want is being governed? The senses, they are the ones that are under control.
muni मुनि - from the root mu मु final emancipation + ni नि down , back , in , into , within ; one who is moved by inward impulse; sage , seer , ascetic;
saṃketa संकेत - compact , stipulation , assignation with ; hint , allusion , preconcerted sign or signal or gesture ; to give a signal

Kaos
26 May 2008, 06:09 PM
Namaste yajvan,

My view, there is neither day nor night, only pure silence.

pranams

devotee
26 May 2008, 07:59 PM
what is night (niśā) for all beings (bhūtānām) is day or wakefulness (jāgarti) for the self-controlled (saṁyamī¹); Yet that which is day (jāgarti) for all beings is niśā ( night) for the muni (some write muneḥ).

Namaste yajvanji,

My understanding is simple :

For All Beings, who are not Samyami, this world is just a place where there are various "things" for apparent satisfaction of the insatiable hunger of the sense organs & the mind. This is similar to running after "mirage". This world as a place for "bhog" (act of satisfying the hunger of the sense organs/mind) is seen by Not-Samyamis as reality & therefore, it (this perception) is like day for them.

As the "Not samyamis" don't see the reality ( the way to get out of this mirage & finally the infinite cycle of life & birth), it (the perception of reality) is like night to them.

The Samyami/the Muni sees things just the opposite.

Regards

yajvan
27 May 2008, 11:26 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste ,


Thank you kaos and devotee for your posts and considering this śloka, you bring good points ( as usual) to the conversation.

If I may let me offer a few ideas. This night that is mentioned (niśā) can have a few meanings and implications.

One is just nightime - at night most human beings are resting and asleep. For the muni, he/she remains awake in the SELF. Sleep does not overshadow the pure consciousness Kaos suggests in his post. This is 'day', light or prakāśa (kāś is ~ to shine + pra is ~ forth, so to shine forth)
Another is ignorance is considered niśā or night; the time without light. Since the saṁyamī is light-filled of the SELF, this is the opposite of night, and 'day' shines for him/her continuiously.But why is it 'night' then for the saṁyamī when it is day for other beings? I think devotee said it well.

In the daytime human beings are in the pursuit of satisfing the senses. Now one may come to the conclusion that the senses are a 'bad' thing, they are not. They are doing what they are designed to do, bring creation and experince to us. It is the SELF that is proportedly bound to the senses, that humans see no differences ( no viveka or discrimination) between the SELF and the body-senses. People may think that they are this body and miss the suble feild of atman. This is ignorance; Ignoring the SELF.
For the muni this is 'night'... the pursuit and accumulation of objects for happiness, or acquistion, is ignorance, night. The muni remains in the delight of the SELF, nothing finite ( objects)can overwhlem or susbstutute for this SELF-referal condition.In the next verse of the Bhāgavad gītā 2.70 , Krsna suggests that just as water enters an ever-full ocean, it remains unmoved or undisturbed. Like that, desires that enter muni , remains unmoved.


This notion is also called out in śloka 2.59. Krsna tells Arjuna that the objects of the senses 'turn away' from him who does not feed upon them; The image Krsna offers , 'as a tortoise withdraws his limbs' the saṁyamī becomes established in knowledge (we used the term sthitaprajña before) firmly fixed or stable in prajña wisdom / knowledge. The gītā's words are prajña pratiṣṭhitā.

pranams


Words Used

prakāśa - kas कस् to beam , shine + pra प्र to beam , shine
saṁyamī or that native with saṁyam ( some may write saMyam) संयम् to hold together , hold in , hold fast , restrain , curb , control , govern , guide; But want is being governed? The senses, they are the ones that are under control.
muni मुनि - from the root mu मु final emancipation + ni नि down , back , in , into , within ; one who is moved by inward impulse; sage , seer , ascetic.

Kaos
27 May 2008, 02:17 PM
In the next verse of the Bhāgavad gītā 2.70 , Krsna suggests that just as water enters an ever-full ocean, it remains unmoved or undisturbed. Like that, desires that enter muni , remains unmoved.




Namaste,

Om purnamadah purnamidam purnaat purnam-udacyate.

Brahman undergoes no change to become the world.

Vivamis123
27 May 2008, 02:59 PM
Interesting posts. I however don't think that the senses are being controlled...or need to be controlled. We give power to the senses by giving them "meaning". I think what is "under control" is the mind.

So my guess (and it's only a guess : ) is that the statement means something like:

What is foolish to those of mind.... is wisdom to those who are of no mind (no thought)...yet what is wisdom (knowledge) to those of mind...is an illusion (dream/ignorance) to those that know.

yajvan
27 May 2008, 06:03 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Interesting posts. I however don't think that the senses are being controlled...or need to be controlled. We give power to the senses by giving them "meaning". I think what is "under control" is the mind.

So my guess (and it's only a guess : ) is that the statement means something like:

What is foolish to those of mind.... is wisdom to those who are of no mind (no thought)...yet what is wisdom (knowledge) to those of mind...is an illusion (dream/ignorance) to those that know.


Namaste Vivamis123,
thank you for the post... I see that the word 'control' can cause some mischief when used. The notion is ~ under contol ~ and this is not done by any effort. The senses operate within their own field. The notion of under contol suggests that they do not drive the sadhu here and there for greater consumption.

People on the path have thought for years that 'control' of the sense was the key. If I stay away from objects of the sense, then this is the path.
Krsna ( some prefer writing Kṛṣṇa) mentions in 2.67 that the intellect is carried away by the wandering senses. He also says in 3.6 , He who sits restraining the organs of action and dwelling in his mind on the objects of sense, self-deluded, he is said to be a hypocrite, (some use the word pretender).


This suggests a few things...that one absorbed of the SELF is not a mood or concept, but an actual exprience that takes place. A different set of mind-body experiences occur, and you cannot pretend to be in this level of awareness ( some say level of Being).


Now what you say makes perfect sense. That the mind is under contol. Some see the mind as the collection agency of the senses... the senses offer up the experience and the mind chooses to act or not act on the experience given, so your point is well founded and grounded in common sense.
Yet each sense smell, taste, touch, etc. has its own intelligence itself and are part of the pānca jñanendriyas ( the 5 organs of cognition).

Lets say you are sitting and reading a book, engaged in the story. Then the smell of cookies comes from the kitchen. Without any effort the mind then is re-directed to this smell. It was though ghrāna, smelling this came about. The mind was absorbed in the book yet the sense ( organ) of smell served up the sent of cookies for the mind to consider, to act on.
Do you get up and go to the kitchen to take a look, or do you continue to read. The nose ghrāna + gandha (the abode of smell) did its job. We did not have to turn this organ on or off, it acted according to its design.

When a person is absorbed of the SELF, the nose does not stop working, it continues its job. Yet all the organs remain under control as to not bind the person and become totally associated with the smell or sight of sound of what is being experienced. One is absorbed in the SELF and life is viewed from that SELF-referal position. One core nature is never lost.

The benefit ? no additonal vāsanās¹ are collected.

Thank you again for your insights...


pranams

1. vāsanās वासना - past impressions; the impression of anything remaining (unconsciously) in the mind; the present consciousness of past perceptions , knowledge derived from memory.

vāsanās are the link to saṁskāra - the faculty of memory , mental impression or recollection , impression on the mind of acts done in a former state of existence that rolls to the next life; to link or fashion together. what is linked? life-after-life.

Vivamis123
27 May 2008, 10:50 PM
Thank you Yajvan...I see what you mean. So in our natural state we are one with Self (conscious of being) and abide there...even when the senses observe. Did I understand you correctly?

Kaos
28 May 2008, 02:05 AM
Namaste,

This is where yoga comes in.
The union of the individual self with the Divine.


pranams

MahaHrada
28 May 2008, 05:17 AM
Hari Om


When a person is absorbed of the SELF, the nose does not stop working, it continues its job.



Namaste Yajvan,

I am of the opinion the quote from the Gita means exactly the opposite, of what you wrote above.

Yet that which is day (jāgarti) for all beings is niśā ( night) for the muni

Because the muni does not see any outer object when immersed in the self with his senses restrained, that even when it is daylight and his eyes are open, he does not see anything, that is why day is called night.

The verse before that says:

tasmad yasya maha-baho
nigrhitani sarvasah
indriyanindriyarthebhyas
tasya prajna pratisthita

"Therefore, O mighty-armed, one whose senses are
restrained from their objects is centered in a state of wisdom."

This is the method the following verse shows the result.

In meditation there is no impression reaching the brain, even with open eyes. The sense organ of sight does not transmit any signals to the brain. The mind becomes isolated so to say from sense impressions, that is what is meant by pratyahara so that way the Yogi can begin to perceive the inner illumination.


In siddhanta kaula or trika we have the possibility to transcend the limitation of effecting an inward contraction of the senses, but only when certain conditions are met these methods can be applied, one may then experience samadhi also in expansion of the senses toward an object, but in Yoga the gradual path consist of first isolating the mind from sense impressions, but the alternate samadhi in the state of expansion is extraordinary hard to achieve and risky, so even the shiva sutras recommend the usual procedure:

sharIre samhArah kalAnAm

The forces are withdrawn in the body

shiv sutras 3/4

through this contraction the yogi is to obtain a body of awakened consciousness (bodhadeha) and experiences the supreme arising (parodaya) of ultimate cosnciousness.

This means the Yogi arrests the flow of life energy (prana) that is under normal conditions ever moving outwards towards the sense organs in the 9 major nadis of the body. Ultimately he dissolves all the principles (tattva).

In yoga meditation we try to retain the energy inside and apply a seal (mudra) on the nine caves or holes of the body which include the sense organs , (the 9 holes are 2 holes of ears mouth 2 holes of the nose and the two holes of the sexual organ and the anus.)

We arrest the outward flow to make all prana flow inside the central nadi only.

There are nine abodes of the nine immortal teachers of Nath Parampara (Navanaths) in the body of the Nath yogi, abiding in their caves they seal the corresponding openings so that the life energy cannot escape through these lower openings.

Mahahradanath

yajvan
28 May 2008, 11:37 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

I am of the opinion the quote from the Gita means exactly the opposite, of what you wrote above.

Yet that which is day (jāgarti) for all beings is niśā ( night) for the muni

Namaste MahaHrada,
I can see why you would think that, but note the following... the conversation has progressed to the state of being outside of meditation. That was the condition I was addressing. This is key to understand for this part of the conversation. For the muni ( or realized) , the SELF is established ~ posssessed of the SELF both in or out of meditation.

When I mentioned being possessed of the SELF, it is when the eyes are opened or closed. Yet when the eyes are open and one is in restful alertness, possessed of the SELF, the nose, eyes, etc. continue thier duties.


I would have pursued the conversation of samādhi if were discussing the pure meditation condition, eyes closed. Then the senses are left behind as one bathes in pure consciousness.

thank you again for your post.


pranams

MahaHrada
28 May 2008, 12:32 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste MahaHrada,
I can see why you would think that, but note the following... the conversation has progressed to the state of being outside of meditation. This is key to understand for this part of the conversation.


Namaste Yajvan
I am not convinced.
Why do you think the subject changes? The preceding paragraph is about restraining the senses, if we follow the discusssion in the gita, first the method of meditation is described , and than the result that follows is described in the next verse.

Why should there be a sudden change of subject just before the end of the chapter?


When I mention being possessed of the SELF, it is when the eyes are opened or closed. Yet when the eyes are open and one is in restful alertness, possessed of the SELF, the nose, eyes, etc. continue thier duties.
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In my opinion this is a very advanced subject while this section of the Gita seems to treat the basic yoga disciplines. Milana unmilana samadhi, samadhi with open eyes also called bhairavi / bhairava mudra is an advanced and secret tantric subject treated in the agamas and it is in my opinion not fitting into the basic teachings of the gita that are described in the context of normal Yoga.

If i consider for the sake of the discussion that you are right and that it is meant here that the senses continue their duty it would be more correct to say that for the muni day would be still day and night would still be night, while he is immered in the self. Instead the opposite condition is described.

In my opinion one should keep interpretations as direct, straightforward and logical as possible, and that would suggest a sequence: After restraining the senses, as it is recommend in the preceding verse, day changes to night, and night, (which is the time of inactivity of the sense organ for the normal person, but not so for the muni), becomes day for the muni, since during the inactivity of the outer senses in sleep and also in meditation his sixth sense is active and he is able to comprehend the light of atman with it.




I would have pursued the converstation of samādhi if were discussing the pure meditation condition, eyes closed. Then the senses are left behind as one bathes in pure consciousness.


I am not able to follow you kindly elaborate what you intended to convey with this sentence.

pranams

Mahahradanatha



Bhairavi mudra which is the state or seal of the Melapasiddhas is described in the MahAnayaprakAsha of Arnasimha in the following way:

The Melapasiddhas
Once the twelve knots have been pierced these energies arise supreme. Endowed with the Qualities of the Great Union, their one form oneness (samarasya) they, established in the abode of the unobscured expanse of conciousness, shine perpetually.

Bhairavi is said to be the seal that having filled the spectacle of duality generated by the intensity of her innate power is free of being and non being her glorious power full and perfect and form unobscured, Bhairavi by nature this is the gesture full to overflowing with the oneness (samarasya) which is the waveless expansion of consciousness of these melapasiddhas.

Consider also this description by my own teacher:
"Fundamental to this ancient tradition is the assumption that all that is the universe is also contained within the human body. Stars, planets, rivers, seas, Suns, Moons, even the smallest mote of dust, all these things which appear 'outside' are also found 'inside'. The real act of oblation is the offering of the entire cosmos both active and subjective into the Fire of Pure Consciousness, This is the Bhairava Mudra, in which there is Self Remembering simultaneously with looking outwards."
http://www.religiousworlds.com/mandalam/subha.htm

Vivamis123
28 May 2008, 01:02 PM
One day driving down the street I was consciously my Self...I was driving without any thought. The car in front of me stepped on the breaks and slowed down. I did too...yet what was going on outside of me, did not effect the inside on me. My eyes saw and all my muscles were working propperly...yet not to my command....they just acted and I witnessed it.

So yes, I do think you can be in full awareness of Self yet be a witness to the senses. It is only when one becomes a part of somehthing else (one with that which is observed)...that the experience of separation comes about.

atanu
28 May 2008, 01:56 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

I am of the opinion the quote from the Gita means exactly the opposite, of what you wrote above.

Yet that which is day (jāgarti) for all beings is niśā ( night) for the muni

Because the muni does not see any outer object when immersed in the self with his senses restrained, that even when it is daylight and his eyes are open, he does not see anything, that is why day is called night.

Mahahradanath

Namaste MahaHrada,

Though I agree half way through to what you aver, I offer the following view. "-------that is why day is called night", as stated by you above will require explanation as to why then the night is like day to a muni. Does a meditating stithiprajna rishi starts seeing things in night? Though, I do not oppose any of the explanation offered so far, yet, I think that this verse is much more fundamental and much more pervasive than mere seeing or not seeing of objects.

This verse can be applied to any of the differences between an ignorant man and a stithiprajna Jnani, and, thus the most fundamental (the common) contrast is the difference between ignorance and knowledge. IMO, this verse covers in one sweep all differences of perception, conception and understanding from the perspective of ignorance on one hand (where discreteness and solidness is held absolute truth) and jnana on the other hand (where one singular subtler than air awareness is seen always -- with or without objects).

The difference between a jnani and an ignorant is so fundamental that in all aspects the understanding of an ignorant and a jnani are likely to be just opposite like day and night.



Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

yajvan
28 May 2008, 02:10 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan
I am not convinced.

Namste Mahaharada,

I repsect your prerogative to not be convinced. That is not my goal.

Now, why do I think the subject changes? Because I chose to do that in my post, simple as that. To go deeper and wider.

What is a key driver in my mind to talk of being possessed of the SELF? A key word that is offered in the śloka is muni मुनि - from the root mu मु final emancipation + ni नि down , back , in , into , within ; the sage , seer , ascetic.

This is the beauty of the Bhāgavad gītā - While I see the notion of the beginning chapters as a 'warm up' to more in-depth concepts found later in the dialog, Chapter 2 is very profound ( to me).

Kṛṣṇa discusses the intellect united with the SELF in śloka 50-51; He also discusses Brahman in śloka 71, 'even at the last moment', one can become established in this wholeness.

Yet one of the most profound offers that I believe is the foundation for all future chapters is śloka 48 - yogastaḥ kuru karmāṇi - established (or steadfast) in yoga perform actions. This is the formula for 'skill in action' -skill that eliminates the binding influence of actions or karma. A very advanced concept I believe that can be taken further and deepr; just this one sutra alone, my teacher would talk for hours.

Thank you again for your post and allowing me to explain... I do not wish to create a condition of debate or jalpa on this matter or to refute (khaṇḍana) your views. I have seen on HDF where this only causes angst and vivikitsā (doubt, suspicion). For me this is un-inviting.


pranams,

yajvan
28 May 2008, 02:59 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Thank you Yajvan...I see what you mean. So in our natural state we are one with Self (conscious of being) and abide there...even when the senses observe. Did I understand you correctly?

Namaste V ( hope its okay to call you V).

When you say our natural state, one with the SELF, this infers 7x24x365, or all the time. This is considered Brahma Sakshtkara (Self Realization) some call this turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya).

This was the notion of my previous posts that began to cause some mischief. In this state the senses are still active, they serve us well. Yet we are not bound by them any more.

What does that mean? It means we never lose our relationship with the SELF, it is not overshadowed by the finite level of creation's experiences. But do we smell, see, taste? Sure, yet this is done without the loss of the SELF, it is stable, we are possessed of the SELF.

I hope this helps? If not, let me know and I will pursue another angle. Also saidevo and atanu have excellent analogies, if they care to assist with this understanding.


Nalpe sukham asti - finite things do not contain happiness - rishi Sanatkumara

pranams,

MahaHrada
28 May 2008, 03:10 PM
Namaste MahaHrada,

Though I agree half way through to what you aver, I offer the following view. "-------that is why day is called night", as stated by you above will require explanation as to why then the night is like day to a muni. Does a stithiprajna meditating rishi starts seeing things in night? Though, I do not oppose any of the explanation offered so far, yet, I think that this verse is much more fundamental and much more pervasive than mere seeing or not seeing of objects.


Namaste Atanu

First of all i agree with you of course there are several layers of interpretation.

But i belive excluded are the advanced tantrokta methods of samadhi with open eyes Yajvan mentionend.

Now as to your question i consider night to refer to the time when the senses of the normal person is turned inward during dream state and deep sleep. Even when his sense organs do not receive a stimulus, he does not become aware of atma, but only recollects his mental imprints or looses conciousness altogether in deep sleep.
Differentis the Muni he is awake and aware also in the dream state and even in deep sleep instead of loosing consciousness he is immersed in samadhi. So during the night he is awake. It would be even accurate to say that he enters deep sleep state while awake. That is my explanation why night is day to the Muni.



This verse can be applied to any of the differences between an ignorant man and a stithiprajna Jnani, and, thus the most fundamental (the common) contrast is the difference between ignorance and knowledge. IMO, this verse covers in one sweep all differences of perception, conception and understanding with perspective of ignorance on one hand (where discreteness and solidness is held absolute truth) and jnana on the other hand (where one singular subtler than awareness is seen always -- with or without objects).



I see what you mean i do not have a problem with this interpretation, i belive it is a fitting interpretation from the viewpoint of advaita vedanta.

But it only describes reality and that in a self sufficent philosophical way it contains no application nor any method to access the state it describes.

Such descriptions of reality are to be found in countless numbers and not only that they differ widely according to the capacity of the interpreters and those that listen.

Descriptions giving access or commenting upon practical application are rare.

So i guess it is worthwhile to offer such interpretations, even if they are only concernend with a more trivial layer of interpretation.

I generally try to offer approaches that maybe are trivial, but can be applied or offer explanations of , or give access to methods or ideas that can be actually put to some practical use.

The descriptive understanding comes by itself if an actual experience can be triggered. Other way around it does not always work so well.


MahaHrada

MahaHrada
28 May 2008, 03:29 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

. I do not wish to create a condition of debate or jalpa on this matter or to refute (khaṇḍana) your views. I have seen on HDF where this only causes angst and vivikitsā (doubt, suspicion). For me this is un-inviting.


Namaste Yajvan
I do not have the impression that agreement is a must amongst friends, i consider it the beauty of bharat dharma that it not only allows differences in approach but even encourages them. Natural beauty is caused by diversity not by uniformity.

pranams

MahaHrada

Kaos
28 May 2008, 05:01 PM
Namaste all,

Wonderful replies from everyone.
Allow me to express that it is my understanding that our spiritual attainment will always be equal to the level of intensity of our feeling.

Since grace is bestowed by Krishna, and it is said that we become what we think of most, with love and devotion, it is that which causes God to come looking for you.


"Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me."

Bhagavad Gita, chapter 18, verse 65

yajvan
28 May 2008, 05:53 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste Yajvan
I do not have the impression that agreement is a must amongst friends, i consider it the beauty of bharat dharma that it not only allows differences in approach but even encourages them. Natural beauty is caused by diversity not by uniformity. pranams

MahaHrada

Namaste MahaHrada,
A fair statement made.

For me there is enough (aggressive) debate, thrashing & polemics on this good earth I needn't contribute to it.

I see what aggressive debate brings when the only outcome is winning for the sake of winning (jAti and jalpa). Am I suggesting this is your intent? No. Let me say it stronger, Absolutely not.

That said I have signaled my intent. I prefer reasonable conversations where neither side is compelled to convince or cajole the other to the point of submission. Differences of opinion are fine and welcomed, but I have seen other outcomes occur on HDF and choose not to contribute or kindle the potential of ill feelings. No spiritual progress IMHO is gained from this as I see it.
Truthful speech is the austerity of vak, yet one also must be sure this truth (satyam) is sweet and never bitter to the ear.

You mention
Natural beauty is caused by diversity not by uniformity
I see what you say. I have a slightly different view of this. I see natural beauty as unity in the mist of diversity. This has been my view.

For me the Rig Veda, 10th Mandala, 12.40, rishi is Samvanana and Agni is devata, captures the notion best for me .
Meet together, talk together, let your minds apprehend alike; in like manner as the ancient gods (devata) concurring accepted their portions at the sacrifice.

Common be the prayer of these assembled worshippers, common be the acquirement, common the purpose, associated by the desire. I repeat for you a common prayer, I offer for you with a common oblation;

Common be your intention, common be the wishes of your hearts, common be your thoughts, So that there may be thorough union among you.

pranams,

yajvan
29 May 2008, 11:16 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~




If I may let me offer a few ideas. This night that is mentioned (niśā) can have a few meanings and implications.

One is just nightime - at night most human beings are resting and asleep. For the muni, he/she remains awake in the SELF.
Another is ignorance is considered niśā or night; the time without light. Since the saṁyamī is light-filled of the SELF, this is the opposite of night, and 'day' shines for him/her continuously. Namaste,
I thought to advance the conversation a bit more. I think this wisdom is worthy of discussion and to add this dimension to it.

I take note that for 'day' we associate light or prakāśa (kāś is ~ to shine + pra is ~ forth, so to shine forth). With 'night' or niśā, we associate dark or the absence of light.

Now, just as with light and dark we can consider the following.
The muni is associated with light. muni मुनि the sage , seer , ascetic.
And with niśā we have mūḍha मूढ - stupefied , bewildered , perplexed , confused , uncertain or at a loss about ; bewildered , ;confusion of mind. The deluded one.

What is the mūḍha bewildered about? His or her true nature. In fact for some, this is not even a consideration; That is ( for some) moha¹ or this delusion is so thick, they do not know that they do now know. The notion of SELF or the light of atman is not even a consideration or an idea to ponder.

That said, I find it interesting that muni & mūḍha can be so different yet start out with the same term of 'mu'. On closer inspection we see how they diverge quite rapidly.

muni = mu+ni - the sage , seer , ascetic
mu मु - final emancipation
ni नि - down , back , in , into , within ;
Or the person that is within or resides in final emancipation - in the 'light' or prakāśa ( some write prakash).


mūḍha = mū+ḍha - the deluded one
mū मू ( long u) we have binding , tying , fixing
ḍha ध - holding , possessing ; bestowing , granting , causing
Or the person that is bound or fixed, held or possessed by the dark or niśā, ignorance.

pranams

1. moha मोह darkness or delusion of mind; bewilderment , perplexity , distraction;

Ganeshprasad
29 May 2008, 04:15 PM
Pranam all

I don’t think I can add anything more of value that which is not all ready covered by most here, still if I may bring my own thoughts, the way I see it, the way my mind accepts it. Which in many ways is not much different.

Nicely explained by Yajvan ji above post.

Day and night, sukal paksh and Krishna paksh, utrayan and dakshiyan all of it is related. One follows the other, knowledge of both is a samdarsi

For a sansari the day is outward seeking, chasing after bright light, material things, which in turn is jada, and therefore tamas such a state is night for a muni.

For a muni the day is inward seeking contemplating on sprit, which is satva, but the path is all clouded Such a state is night for sansari.

In the state that sansari is awake, is material consideration therefore munis night
In the state that muni is awake is sprit, but a sansari is ignorant off, therefore sleeping.

Sansari = outward looking =material thing = tamas =night
Muni = inward looking = sprit = satva = day

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
30 May 2008, 07:19 AM
Namaste Atanu

Differentis the Muni he is awake and aware also in the dream state and even in deep sleep instead of loosing consciousness he is immersed in samadhi.


Namaskar MahaHrada,

Yes, I agree and this is what I expected and wished for. Now, isn't this Muni as high as Rudra Himself, who is the only God who never slumbers? One who never slumbers is also called one without a second and for such a one what is presence of object or absence of object?

Om

MahaHrada
02 June 2008, 12:27 PM
Namaskar MahaHrada,

Yes, I agree and this is what I expected and wished for. Now, isn't this Muni as high as Rudra Himself, who is the only God who never slumbers? One who never slumbers is also called one without a second and for such a one what is presence of object or absence of object?

Om


yo rudro agnau yo apso ya oShadhIShu yo rudro vishva bhuvanA avivesha tasmai rudrAya namo astu.
Rudra in the fire, in the waters, in the plants, rudra who has entered all entities of the universe, to that rudra homage.


Namaste Atanu,

Your questions require a lot of attention.

The muni who is constantly awake and aware during all the three states shurely can be said to resemble rudra.

You ask what does presence and absence of an object mean to such a one?

This question can have many answers, and i will try to give at least some, but first of all i like to reframe the question, instead of presence and absence of object let us say presence and absence of sense impressions, since than we do not need to bother about the question if a sense object exists or if this is merely a misperception. (Maya)

Of course for the muni, as well as for the average person, absence of sense impressions and perceiving the world are different states of mind.

The verses in the Gita leave no doubt that the muni is directed to restrain his senses and look inward so that no sense impression will reach his mind.

Then we are told, in the simile of the rivers that flow back into the sea , that his prana or vayu and mind return to its origin at the time his sense are introverted.

Since we havent yet fully explored that state of samadhi with regressed senses i find it difficult to switch to an explanation of what happens to the muni when his mind begins to perceive sense impressions again.

I think this will depend on how deep his introversion was, if it was a short restraining of the senses, or whether it was prolonged and deepenend into nirvikalpa samadhi.

When i correctly understand the gita here the stage of introversion described in chapter two might be a first step on the way to samadhi.

Depending on whether the muni deepens his state or not his reaction when confronted again with sense impressions will be different.

Because this question is very complicated i have to resort to past knowledge and while i am neither following advaita vedanta in this janma nor have i studied it, nonetheless i can´t help quoting from viveka chudamani, even though i lack the qualification.

Shri adi shankara bhagavatpada describes in Viveka chudamani the person that is fully realised in this way:

550. The man of realisation, bereft of the body-idea, moves amid sense-enjoyments like a man subject to transmigration, through desires engendered by the Prarabdha work. He himself, however, lives unmoved in the body, like a witness, free from mental oscillations, like the pivot of the potter’s wheel.

551. He neither directs the sense-organs to their objects nor detaches them from these, but stays like an unconcerned spectator. And he has not the least regard for the fruits of actions, his mind being thoroughly inebriated with drinking the undiluted elixir of the Bliss of the Atman.

552. He who, giving up all considerations of the fitness or otherwise of objects of meditation, lives as the Absolute Atman, is verily Shiva Himself, and he is the best among the knowers of Brahman.

The idea "I am the body" is a limited vision. When the senses ar restrained and the muni is looking inward he overcomes that restriction. He will realise he is not senses, he is not the body.
Whether he realises that he is everything as well, depends on the grace of the devata and the level of his introversion.
For the muni, if he achieves this level, which is rare, this "I" and "mine " might be replaced with the vastly expanded universal vision "I am every thing".

One ceases to identify oneself with the body when one identifies with the soul or atma which is all pervading.

This results is the idea "I am everything in the universe". only when one sees something as separeted from oneself
there will arise the feelings that bind one into a limited state, like suspicion, greed, fear, jealousy, dislike.

This leads to loss of peace and sorrow and grieving.

We are like a sparrow that is landing on a dressing table. It looks into the mirror and sees its own image. It mistakes
the reflection to be another sparrow, its rival, and attacks it. In the same way, the same Supreme Being is resident in everything in the universe. Only, the forms are different. Like water in different jars -where the containers ,our bodies, are different, but the content the water, the one conciousness , is the same.


Gita 3.70:

apuryamaam acalapratiha
samudram apa pravisanti yadvat
tadvat kama ya pravisanti sarve
sa santim apnoti na kamakami 2.70

As the waters (of different rivers) enter the ocean, which though full on all sides remains undisturbed, likewise he, in whom all desires merge themselves, attains peace; not he, who hankers after such desires.

I belive that the location where these rivers, refer also to the place of origin of the nadis in the subtle body, it is the place called kandayoni in Hatha Yoga, it is situated just below the nabhi chakra, the navel, which region is the location of the Jala (water) Tattva. In the midst of this water is located the digestive fire the bhutAgni, the consumer of food, that heats this moistness and nourishes the body.

We consider the Goraksa sataka now:

Where the kanda is strung on the susummna like a jewel on a thread that region of the navel is called Manipuraka.23
Below the navel and above the male organ is the kandayoni shaped like the egg of a bird There are the origins of the seventytwothousand nadis.24
Among these thousands of nadis seventy two have been specially noted.Again amongst these ten carriers of the Prana are designated as the most important.

Goraksa sataka 23 24 25

The ten carriers are the nine nadis originating from the nine holes of the body and the tenth, is the straight nadi, sushummna, where our life energy should assemble.

All the bhutas are arranged in the body,one on top of the other, in the navel area the jala is situated, the apas tattva.

The navel is also the place where vak devi firstappears as subtle sound in the stage of pasyanti , still inaudible with the normalsense of hearing, it appears to the yogi like an indistinct sound in meditation, a sound similar to the sound of the waves of a great ocean.
This ocean the source of mantra, is also known by the name "Hrada" or "MahaHrada" which word has two meanings it means both lake or ocean and a roaring or murmuring indistinct sound, which is vak devi, or nada in the inaudible stages of the very subtle source of sound called "para" and its first reflection "pasyanti".

In the form as para it appears in the muladhara chakra, as pasyanti the first murmuring stiring, in the navel.

This vak devi rising through the stages of sound or nada is similar to kundalini rising.

This inaudible sound, source of all mantra and source of the veda, will eventually evolve and arise out of the mouth as air (vayu) and articulated speech, but here in the deep state of meditation one can hear it as an indistinct murmuring sound.

Here in nabhi sthana we find the origin of all mantra before it is spoken, the origin of the tara, the pranava, that is OM.

So if the muni deepens his level of restrainment of the senses, retraces his pranas into the source, his consciousness may enter the nabhi sthana and eventually experiences the arising of kundalini as vak devi and the immersion of the mind in the tara, the pranava thats is AUM, the rudra, the stirring of agniH located in the Sushummna in the navel region. rudró vA eShá yád agníH

MahaHrada



The great Scholar Gopinath Kaviraj wrote:

The pure soul, which is a mode of the Absolute and, ultimately consubstantial with it, becomes enveloped in its mundane stage with a double coating of Manas and Bhutas, representing two aspects of subtle matter. The word Manas is used here in a very wide sense, including buddhi, anhankara, etc. The senses which develop later and are only the functional variations of Manas are also implied in it. The word Bhuta stands here for the objective stuff in a state of relative equilibrium. It holds within it the so-called tanmatras, viz. sabda, sparsa, rupa, rasa and gandha, which are not yet distinguishable as such. Each of the five matras has its own centre, wherein it is capable of expanding and contracting. The soul in its descending or outgoing course takes upon itself as a matter of necessity these layers of subtle matter. Though its innate purity is marred thereby it still retains enough of self-consciousness and the consequent powers. Total self-forgetfulness takes place only when it emerges into the outer world, of gross matter which is the outcome of a combination, by means of a process known as Panchikarana, of the finer radiating particles shooting out of the tanmatric centres. The descent into subtle Matter was, as it were, in a straight line, but birth into the external world is the product of an oblique motion (tiryag.hgati) in Vayu. As soon as Consciousness finds itself encased in sensible or gross matter, the Manas develops into senses which begin to operate each in its own line with reference to a corresponding aspect of this Matter. It is for this reason that senses cannot apprehend anything beyond dense Matter. The Manas, as abstracted from the senses, is indeed capable of giving rise to supersensible knowledge. The greater the abstraction the purer the quality of this knowledge. The abstraction of Manas is really synonymous with its concentration and consequent purification.

The so-called Divyachaksu, the Celestial Eye or the Third Eye of Siva is nothing but this purified, and concentrated Mind: mano hyevAtra daiva.m chaxuH. The Manas as coated with dense Matter may be described as dense or sense-bound. And in this state the Vayu too is no longer rectilinear in its motion. Every form of Vayu with which we are familiar in our sensible experience is of this type.


This oblique motion of Vayu in our physical body necessitates the existence of tracks of an oblique character. This is what is technically known as Nadichakra consisting of numerous Nadis ramifying in different directions. Leaving out the Susumna which is the central track of the straight motion of refined Vayu, the other Nadis may be loosely classed under two heads, Right and Left, from their position in relation to the Susumna. The Manas and Vayu of an ordinary man in his senses move along these winding tracks. This movement is his Samsara - his Vyutthana.

The Nathas insist that if the Absolute is to be reached, the central Track, which leads directly into it as a river loses itself in the ocean, must be found out and resorted to. All other ways will mislead, as leading to the different planes of material existence, because they contain sediment of gross matter. As soon as the divergent currents of physical Manas, the vrttis of the senses, and of the physical Vayu i.e. the functions of the vital Principle, are brought to a point with a certain degree of intensity, there flashes forth a bright light representing the expression of the concentrated Saktis of the soul. This expression of Sakti is the revelation of Kundalini and its partial release from the obscuration of Matter.

Excerpt from the article "Some Aspects of the History and Doctrines of the Nathas" by Gopinath Kaviraj

TatTvamAsi
04 June 2008, 04:51 PM
Namaste,

Wonderful discussion of a profound topic indeed! I am finding myself going back and reading the post more than once as to grasp its real purport and meaning(s).

My contention is that 'day' and 'night' have no difference for a 'muni'; especially one such as Ramana Maharishi. As already mentioned, a jnani is in samadhi even when awake as well as in 'deep sleep' (physically). However, whether one is a jnani or not, the physical principles of the phenomenal world still apply. Meaning, if a muni where to stand in front of a moving train, he will still be squashed just as an ignoramus in front of a train would be. The 'withdrawal of senses' discussed in the Gita, I believe, alludes to curbing the desires and achieving equanimity of mind. This is because when the mind is in perpetual motion (restless), thinking of the Supreme is much more difficult.

Anyway, much of what has been discussed in this thread is very profound and reflects ideas I've never even heard of, let alone read/learnt. I am glad that HDF is a place where I can learn of many 'new' (to me) things about Sanatana Dharma.

Subham.

atanu
04 June 2008, 11:58 PM
-
551. He neither directs the sense-organs to their objects nor detaches them from these, but stays like an unconcerned spectator. And he has not the least regard for the fruits of actions, his mind being thoroughly inebriated with drinking the undiluted elixir of the Bliss of the Atman.

552. He who, giving up all considerations of the fitness or otherwise of objects of meditation, lives as the Absolute Atman, is verily Shiva Himself, and he is the best among the knowers of Brahman.



Namaste MahaHrada,

Thank you for a detailed discussion and explanation.

551. He neither directs the sense-organs to their objects nor detaches them from these, but stays like an unconcerned spectator. And he has not the least regard for the fruits of actions, his mind being thoroughly inebriated with drinking the undiluted elixir of the Bliss of the Atman.

552. He who, giving up all considerations of the fitness or otherwise of objects of meditation, lives as the Absolute Atman, is verily Shiva Himself, and he is the best among the knowers of Brahman.

Om

Kaos
05 June 2008, 03:43 PM
My contention is that 'day' and 'night' have no difference for a 'muni'; especially one such as Ramana Maharishi. As already mentioned, a jnani is in samadhi even when awake as well as in 'deep sleep' (physically). However, whether one is a jnani or not, the physical principles of the phenomenal world still apply. Meaning, if a muni where to stand in front of a moving train, he will still be squashed just as an ignoramus in front of a train would be. The 'withdrawal of senses' discussed in the Gita, I believe, alludes to curbing the desires and achieving equanimity of mind. This is because when the mind is in perpetual motion (restless), thinking of the Supreme is much more difficult.




Namaste,

I agree. I also believe that the message in the above Chapter is transcendental in nature.

A muni knows his true nature, therefore, would not even think of standing in front of a moving train.
A muni in Krishna consciousness, the original energy of the living entity is in a higher state of consciousness, above that of the sensual, mental and intellectual.

yajvan
06 June 2008, 11:39 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan
Bhairavi mudra which is the state or seal of the Melapasiddhas is described in the MahAnayaprakAsha of Arnasimha in the following way:

Bhairavi is said to be the seal that having filled the spectacle of duality generated by the intensity of her innate power is free of being and non being her glorious power full and perfect and form unobscured, Bhairavi by nature this is the gesture full to overflowing with the oneness (samarasya) which is the waveless expansion of consciousness of these melapasiddhas.



Namaste Mahahradanatha
Thank you for your contributions to this conversation. Yes, I see what you say regarding bhairavīmudrā. The method ( mudra¹) of inner absorbtion (samādhi¹) with external use or expansion (vikāsa¹) of the senses.

This inner absorbtion some may call the saṃkoca of śakti - or turning back from all sides of the external spread of śakti. Yet maintaining this concentration while eyes are open is bhairavīmudrā as you mention.

Bhatta Kallaṭa, a śiṣya of Vasugupta, said it this way, That i.e. the development of vikāsa or madhya¹ śhakti is accomplished by the transformation ( rūpādiṣu pariṇāmāt) even in the presence of forms.

What do I think becomes of this? The sādhu becomes sakala - whole possessing all its component parts , complete , entire , whole or samasta¹. Some would prefer this word be nisakala without parts or undivided and I am also fine either way. The key for me is samasta.

Perhaps you care to give your views or extend the conversation…do you think bhairavīmudrā = kramamudrā

pranams,


1. words used

vikāsa विकास - expanding , budding, growth
madhya मध्य middlemost , intermediate , central ;standing between two
samadhi समाधि - union , a whole , aggregate , completion; sama meaning balanced, complete, pure, or even "dissolved". Dhi refers to intellect, memory and inner reasoning. Samadhi is a state of inner calmness which is born out of sincere practice.
samasta समस्त -combined , united , whole ; inherent in or pervading the whole
sakala सकल possessing all its component parts , complete, entire , whole
nisakala निष्कल - without parts , undivided
Bhairavīmudrā:
mudrā मुद्रा - sealing in, a lock or seal; stamp or impression made by a seal ; stamp or print or mark or impression ; we note that mud मुद् is to mix, mingle, yet also means joy and delight.

Bhairavī भैरवी is śrī devī; It is said śiva is known through śakti - Vijñāna Bhairava, kārikā 21.
saṃkoca saMkoca or saNkoca संकोच - contraction , shrinking together , compression ; limitation , restriction
śiṣya शिष्य - student some prefer the word chela
krama क्रम a step; going , proceeding ; uninterrupted or regular progress

MahaHrada
10 June 2008, 06:19 AM
Perhaps you care to give your views or extend the conversation…do you think bhairavīmudrā = kramamudrā



Namaste Yajvan,
The concept of the mudras and the associated states of mind is very complex, and after trying hard, for a few days to arrive at a good answer i fear the discussion requires a qualification and knowledge i do not have.

I only wanted to point out that when approaching the sense impressions in such a way as to combine mukti (release from bondage) with bhukti (pleasures of the sense organs) like in bhairavi mudra we are traversing beyond what is mentionend in the gita and what is usually sanctioned by vedanta and other darshanas. The turning point between tantric darshanas and conventional darshanas is not so much the question "What do we do to reach samadhi" as it is the question "What do we do, or what is our state after we have reached samadhi and return to a state of mind where we receive sense impressions again.

A series of states of mind are triggered in tantric path when entering samadhi and when we return to sense impressions and these manifests (or can even be triggered,) in form of the different mudras, (=body speech and mind postures) especially the 5 main mudras in trika, where the first karankini, the death like mudra can be likened to the "conventional" samadhi, those that follow and combine the external with internal sate start with bhairavimudra they are beyond "conventional" samadhi, and thus maybe are not covered by the Gita.This is why i mentioned this mudra and not the others.


MahaHrada

Mudras.
Their ascending order is:

Karankini the state of the Jnana siddhas internal samadhi experience
Krodhani the state of the Mantrasiddhas external world experience
Bhairavi the state of the Melapa siddhas experiencing both states (of external and internal samadhi)
Lelihani the state of the Shaktasiddhas dissolving the combinend state of external and internal samadhi
Khechari the state of the Shambhavasiddhas unifying the last two states of experience and dissolution.

yajvan
10 June 2008, 12:36 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,
The concept of the mudras and the associated states of mind is very complex, and after trying hard, for a few days to arrive at a good answer i fear the discussion requires a qualification and knowledge i do not have.

I only wanted to point out that when approaching the sense impressions in such a way as to combine mukti (release from bondage) with bhukti (pleasures of the sense organs) like in bhairavi mudra we are traversing beyond what is mentioned in the gita and what is usually sanctioned by vedanta and other darshanas. The turning point between tantric darshanas and conventional darshanas is not so much the question "What do we do to reach samadhi" as it is the question "What do we do, or what is our state after we have reached samadhi and return to a state of mind where we receive sense impressions again.


Namaste MahaHrada
Thank you for taking the time to consider my question. I see your POV as my question reaches outside the classical views of Bhāgavad gītā. I ask these types of questions as my studies also take me to different views of the same great wisdom offered in the gītā.

How so ? Various authors look at this great work through their eyes and paramparā. My studies take me to connecting the dots. This wisdom found in the gītā is of the highest truth. Truth (satyam) in the āgama-s, tantra-s and saṃhitā-s also sing of this truth. Satyam is the connection point, there cannot be multiple truths, but there can be multiple views. This is the richness of Sanatana Dharma.

So where do my views stem from? The merging, studying and pondering the following gītā versions:

Śrīla Prabhupāda's work
Abhinavagupta's gītārtha-saṁgraha . After each chapter Śrī Abhinava offers one verse (saṁgraha) at the end of each chapter that encapsulates the main teaching of the chapter.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - Maharishi only translated the first 6 chapters (some see this great work in 3's; 1 to 6, 7-12 and 13 to 18 chapters); yet this work is worthy of study.
Another is by S. Radhakrishnan
Śrī Jñānadeva, only on this planet for 20 years, his work is most insightful. If you look for it goes by the name Bhāvārṭa Dīpīka, some call Jñāneshwarī ( I am sure you are familiar with this work)
Also Svami Śivanānda's commentary on the gītā brings a new view.
It is from studying these that the cross-pollination of ideas, insights and ahhh-ha's in my understanding arise. Perhaps you can add additional insights or ideas. As I see it, multiple views of this wisdom is most helpful for one to have insights into Reality.

From these insights may we all be like Arjuna as he says in chapt 18, śloka 73, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā - dispelled is my illusion my memory is regained.


pranams