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Indra
06 June 2008, 11:16 AM
History Although akin to the Kapalika ascetics of medieval Kashmir, with whom there may be a historical connection, the Aghoris trace their origin to Kina Ram, an ascetic who is said to have lived to 150 years during the second half of the eighteenth century. Kina Ram is thought to have been an incarnation of the Hindu god Shiva, as have been each of Kina Ram's successors. Necrophagy, the eating of corpse flesh, is attested to by a sixteenth century Persian source and in nineteenth century British accounts.

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/aghoris.html

srivijaya
06 June 2008, 03:03 PM
As far as I know, it's fact and these sects influenced the iconography of Tibetan Tantric Buddhism. They represent a very small minority and it is questionable whether such practices are ultimately of any value.
In any case many Kashmiri Shaivites never associated themselves with such practices and some condemned them outright.

Namaste

MahaHrada
06 June 2008, 07:13 PM
From Aghor panth there came many faultless humble and respected saints.
Bhagwan Gopinath ji was one of them, he lived in Kashmir his whole life and was greatly honoured and respected there.
Tell me kindly who condemmend Aghor panth from amongst kashmir pandits and why ? Aghor teachings are very similar to trika kaúla.

MahaHrada

Website about Gopinath ji
http://www.bhagavaangopinathji.org/index.html


http://www.bhagavaangopinathji.org/images/Gopinath.jpg


Aghoreswar Bhagavan Gopinathji

Jai Bhagavaan Ji

devotee
07 June 2008, 05:17 AM
Namaste,
I agree with Maha. Please don't be mistaken by their acts. Aghoris are highly respected saints though no one likes to come across an Aghori as with our ordinary mind whatever he does seems abhorrant to us. Actually, for him, everything is expression of the same supreme conciousness, Shiva.

I have memory of an interaction with an Aghori in my childhood. He could turn a pinch of earth into "vibhuti" ... could take out a stream of pure water from a completely dry cloth. And no, it was not cheap magic. He did it in front of everyone around him within a very close distance wherein there was no chance to cheat.

Becoming an Aghori is a very tough choice. You hardly find them anywhere now-a-days.

OM

srivijaya
07 June 2008, 08:50 AM
Tell me kindly who condemmend Aghor panth from amongst kashmir pandits and why ? Aghor teachings are very similar to trika kaśla.

Hi MahaHrada,
My reference was to the condemnation of certain practices, rather than any particular sect, or the Aghor saints you mention.

In eleventh century Kashmir prominent Saivites like Kalhana and Ksemendra expressed dislike of some practices:

Kalhana writes:
"These honourable and learned men who knew how to behave fearlessly at great tantric rites and who, grimly conscious of their power and thus immune to terror, were heedless even to Bhairava, would fall to the ground in fear and bend their knees before the 'Cat Merchant', who put them at ease again by placing his hand on their heads... Deceitful of his ignorance and vaunting his learning as a physician and Guru, he gradually established a position for himself as the Guru of dyers and other craftsmen".

and

"Here, come to his preceptor's house, is the learned Brahmin initiated into Kaula practice. In his hands a fish and a jar of liquor, his mind made up to drink, freed by Kaula doctrine of the sense of shame (he should feel) by virtue of his caste.
Filling himself with (the wine which is) Bhairava, making the sound "gala gala" of a jar as it fills, he seems carried away in its flow and is bent over by its flood.
Passing thus the night he leaves drunk, vomiting his wine; his face licked by a dog, the Brahmin in the morning is purified by his prostration in the midst of other learned men".

There are numerous other references to "motley crowds" of drunks, old prostitutes and assorted low-life meeting to enact tantric rituals.

See page 14 & 15 (introduction) of The Doctrine of Vibration by Mark Dyczkowski.

The two sides in the debate have no common ground. For one it represents sinful activity, for the other it represents "skillful means" which a normal person is unable to comprehend.

To what extent each and every sect or Guru utilised taboo activities of one kind or another (and justified it) will vary and I'm in no position to pass informed comment on what is a vast and complex story.

My reply to Indra's question was that whilst these activities did most certainly occur (and still do) there will always be doubt in some quarters as to the value of them and the motives of those who practice them.

It was a general remark, not directed at any individual or group. An identical debate exists within Buddhism too.

I hope this makes my post a little clearer.

Namaste

MahaHrada
07 June 2008, 03:07 PM
Hi MahaHrada,
My reference was to the condemnation of certain practices, rather than any particular sect, or the Aghor saints you mention.

In eleventh century Kashmir prominent Saivites like Kalhana and Ksemendra expressed dislike of some practices

Kalhana and Kshemandra where no prominent shaivaite Teachers , they where first of all poets, one is known for his book on the history of kashmir, the other for numerous poetical and scientific works.

In these excerpts of their literary work, they are glossing on, or criticising the non dual "kashmir shaivaites" for their alleged unorthodox behaviour.

Whether these two kashmirian poets may or may have not been shaivas, (maybe form the more orthodox siddhantins), themselves , i think is not that relevant. Relevant is the fact that it is kashmir shaivaism (trika and Kaula) that is the object of criticism.


Aghor panth must not be always antinomian an Avadhootha or Aghor freely chooses his behaviour. The Lineage of Bhagavan Ramji (see the liinks) is not antinomian at all in the way the kaulas are, these Aghors do not care about clean or unclean thats why they help those that are considered unclean, for instance the lepers in their own hospital. They help all that are downtrodden by society.

MahaHrada



Website of Aghoreswar Bhagavan Ramji : http://www.aghoryaan.org/
American Aghor panth Ashram: http://sonomaashram.org

TatTvamAsi
08 June 2008, 03:14 PM
The Aghoris are definitely in the minority (thank god).

here's a video of them on "Jackass" the MTV show:


I personally think their rituals/habits are disgusting but then again I'm nobody to judge. However drinking urine and eating raw human flesh is just abhorrent.

MahaHrada
08 June 2008, 05:23 PM
The Aghoris are definitely in the minority (thank god).

here's a video of them on "Jackass" the MTV show:

link: _anti sadhu link snipped-

I personally think their rituals/habits are disgusting but then again I'm nobody to judge. However drinking urine and eating raw human flesh is just abhorrent.

How do you know their habits and rituals? From reliable sources like Jackass tv? :)

Instead of watching and posting videos that are unreliable, and perhaps even deliberately anti Hindu please look at the websites of aghor panth,which i posted, there you will get decent information from the aghors themselves.

Website about Gopinath ji http://www.bhagavaangopinathji.org/index.html (http://www.bhagavaangopinathji.org/index.html)
Website of Aghoreswar Bhagavan Ramji : http://www.aghoryaan.org/
American Aghor panth Ashram: http://sonomaashram.org (http://sonomaashram.org/)


There are fakes and there are real aghors real aghors would not pose like these people on a stupid Jackass movie for money, what they do is ridiculous and makes sadhus and sannyasin appear as if they are idiots.


MahaHrada

satay
08 June 2008, 11:25 PM
namaste Indra,

There is a thread dedicated to the Aghori sadhus, you can read more information about them here http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=86

sarabhanga explains it well...emphasis mine.



For most people, it would be very difficult to distinguish an Aghori from a sociopathic lunatic, and it is their deliberate intention to reject ALL human distinctions of “good vs. bad”, “right vs. wrong”, “moral vs. immoral”, etc.. And to confuse things even more, there are some sociopaths and lunatics who are not at all spiritually inclined (unless “spiritual” is equated with “alcoholic”) but who take on the guise of an Aghori.


Did you have a chance to study the links posted by MahaHrada?


Necrophagy, the eating of corpse flesh, is attested to by a sixteenth century Persian source and in nineteenth century British accounts.

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/aghoris.html

May I ask why you underlined this text? Since you didn't provide your own comments on the text you pasted...I should ask...what are you trying to achieve with this thread?

We don't need british or persian sources to tell us about rituals of aghori sadhus, we are already aware of them.

Your point is?

srivijaya
09 June 2008, 06:30 AM
Extreme practices will always elicit extreme responses and it helps if people can suspend any personal agenda they may have in order to take a dispassionate look at such subjects.

Following on from a suggestion on the other thread, I found a film on YouTube of an aghori who is about to complete a period of meditation and thereafter meet his guru. The film is intense, by any standards, but provides an insight into the dynamic of this path.

Yes, he does concede that he may eat human flesh even (that should the impulse take him) he would drag a corpse off the pyre and eat it. I think the point is, that he is beyond discriminating - just eating what is in his bowl, or what he finds, including faeces.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_rJu_20Aps&feature=related

One can make what one will of it but his reaction during his meeting with his guru is very thought provoking.

Namaste

Indra
09 June 2008, 11:47 AM
Namaste satay,




Your point is?

I was arguing with a persian guy on a other forum and he insulted hindus and called them names. He provided the link posted by me. I needed arguments to defeat him so i searched for help here on hindu dharma forums.

satay
09 June 2008, 03:09 PM
Namaskar,


Namaste satay,

I was arguing with a persian guy on a other forum and he insulted hindus and called them names.

Could you please provide the link to the other forum where you are arguing with this guy?

Thanks,

Indra
09 June 2008, 03:38 PM
Namaskar,



Could you please provide the link to the other forum where you are arguing with this guy?

Thanks,

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=37741&highlight=hindu+cannibals

im inquiring mind, and the guy is bret lee who started the thread, he wrote me insulting pms

satay
09 June 2008, 07:48 PM
http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=37741&highlight=hindu+cannibals

im inquiring mind, and the guy is bret lee who started the thread, he wrote me insulting pms

He is already banned from that forum. :Cool:
In any event, hindus don't have to argue with every ignorant in the world...