Is renounciation selfish?

[simex]

I know I'm not an active member on this site, but still, I think this is a good place to ask this question.

I'm at the point in my spiritual journey where I see the arbitrariness of this world staring back at me in all things. I used to be a picky eater; I used to obsessively collect and play video games; I used to work dilligently to better my career and my lifestyle; I used to dump all my money into upgrading my car. Now these things seem so trivial to me. I understand with blinding clarity what people mean when they say that happiness is your own, and not in the "things" that we falsely believe make us happy. Even my identity is no longer important to me.

I understand all of these things now, and yet I find myself in this worldly life, going through the motions; pretending I care, so that people won't worry about me. That's the rub. I am a part of other people's lives, and they do not see things the way I do. For them, suffering is real, and because I know what it is to suffer, I cannot cause them suffering, even if I see the illusory nature of it. The thing I now attach myself to most, is the wellbeing of others; the alleviation of suffering.

I have been with my girlfriend for the last 4 years, and even though she's recently started to become interested in dharma and she's starting to see through the illusory nature of reality, I know that if I leave her, she will not understand. I know that it will cause her suffering.
Renunciation seems, in my case, to be a selfish decision.

Part of me says "This may be your last incarnation, who knows when you'll be born in a body capable of grasping these truths again!" but then I think that is simply egotism.

Part of me says "What if this is nothing more than a clever philosophy, and you'll be missing your one chance at experiencing and enjoying the dynamic experiences of life if you renounce."

Part of me says "Renounciation is not necessary, it's merely tradition. Just help others and be dharmic."

Part of me says "Om"

Incidentally, I have a cousin who just bought a condo on the banks of the Ganges, and who is on a dharmic path. I also have enough saved for a plane ticket to India.

Do you have advice?

[atanu]

-
-I have been with my girlfriend for the last 4 years, and even though she's recently started to become interested in dharma and she's starting to see through the illusory nature of reality, I know that if I leave her, she will not understand. I know that it will cause her suffering.

Renunciation seems, in my case, to be a selfish decision.
-
Do you have advice?

Namaste Simex,

Almost everyone, at some time or other, will go through similar situations when objects will start to lose their sheen, yet you will go through a harsher stage of testing, if she leaves you before you decide to leave her. Or many such similar tests may be thrown at you.

Advaita school believes that the true renunciation is the renunciation of the unreal, including of the ego, which is another name for an attachment to 'I-Me-Mine', based on the false association of I with the Body-Mind. Vedanta also teaches that whatsoever one does, one does for the self alone. So, striving to know the Self, IMO, is not a selfish decision, rather hiding one's goals in altruistic terms may be so.

Whatever one's belief, when under extreme doubt, praying to God to reveal the correct path (as in Gayatri Mantra) and waiting with patience is the way most Hindus practice.

Best Wishes

Om

[simex]

Thank you atanu.

Things losing their sheen is a perfect way to describe it.

I subscribe to the advaita vedanta philosophy, so yes, when I say renunciation, I mean the "big" renunciation ;) To some degree it's not a conscious decision that needs to be "done". Once you realize certain things, it requires concerted effort to place importance on names and forms-- but I know it must be done. And in this state, I'm finding it harder and harder to function "normally". My job, in particular, seems incredibly superfluous, and potentially adharmic.

For now I'll just keep meditating, and perhaps the best path will be revealed. Maybe my biggest hurdle is the very sense that something "needs" to be done.

[atanu]

Thank you atanu.

-My job, in particular, seems incredibly superfluous, and potentially adharmic.
For now I'll just keep meditating, and perhaps the best path will be revealed. Maybe my biggest hurdle is the very sense that something "needs" to be done.


Namaste Simex,

Yaa, great. It's good to find someone echoing same kind of sentiments. Yes, most aspects of my Job, I find adharmic and very stressful. For example, going against the Gita teaching of doing one's job without a sankalpa. Or not coveting anything. OTOH, following the rules of business world is mostly stressful and antithetical to dharma. Bench marking or trying to trip up the competitor, for example. The need for so-called human networking to gain position and business is most stressful.

But then slowly I adjusted to the understanding that the stress was due to the egoistic need to feel important or from fear of falling back compared to colleagues or from fear of losing out on promotions etc. If one is capable of truly doing the alloted jobs without any sankalpa or expectations then it is easier. The fact remains that one may lose out in worldly terms. The fact remains that those worldy terms are not important.

The following may be of use:


One may cling and be carried (to wherever) like in case of a baby monkey or one may be carried (without a care) like in case of a kitten carried by its mom..

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~



Vedanta also teaches that whatsoever one does, one does for the self alone. So, striving to know the Self, IMO, is not a selfish decision, rather hiding one's goals in altruistic terms may be so.


Namaste atanu and Simex,
I thought this may add to the conversation...

Brahmarishi Yajavalkya talks to one of his wife's Maitreyi, as she asks him for guidence on Brahman. In this valli or sukta 5¹, he basically says all love is directed to the SELF. " Its not for the love of the husband my dear is the husband dear to his wife, but for the love of the Self". Yajnavalkya points this out for the love of sons, wealth, worlds, gods, etc. 9 subjects he points to. All this in essence is the love for the SELF.

What I found of interest, the author, in the case, Swami Sivananda talks for a few paragrahs on love. I found it quiet interesting: the love or hate one has for an object, situation, etc. is also the same love to become one with the SELF. The urge or desire for the indivudal to merge with the universal apparently has two forms, say Sivananda.
With love, one wants to merge oneself with the objects of love, and remove any duality.
With hate, the same is true, as one wants to destroy or obliterate the distinct individuality of the object of hate, and come to no duality also.

How curious this is! two sides of the same coin. When the object is gone then there is no duality, because their is only the subject. But when they both are gone , total non-duality exists. What is left is this Fullness ( bhuma or plenum is suggested by Sivananda ).

Also simex, your plan to give yourself some time sounds good. Time always seems to help.

pranams

1. Brihadaranyaka Upanishad -Yajnavalkya Kanda, Maitrey Brahmana

[simex]

If one is capable of truly doing the alloted jobs without any sankalpa or expectations then it is easier. The fact remains that one may lose out in worldly terms. The fact remains that those worldy terms are not important.


Agreed. Sri Krishna's advice about working without expectation does indeed free you from much of the stress of work (not to mention a good chunk of your ego). Sadly, in my work environment, if you aren't climbing over the other employees for that promotion, the boss may take it as a sign that you are not motivated. Still, I try to desist.

What frustrates me even more though, is that the company itself would be much more successful if people worked in this way, instead of wasting their time thinking up ways to appear better than each other.

[simex]

Yajvan,

Good points, thank you. There is a huge difference between love and attachment, sometimes I forget this.

[devotee]

I understand all of these things now, and yet I find myself in this worldly life, going through the motions; pretending I care, so that people won't worry about me. That's the rub. I am a part of other people's lives, and they do not see things the way I do. For them, suffering is real, and because I know what it is to suffer, I cannot cause them suffering, even if I see the illusory nature of it. The thing I now attach myself to most, is the wellbeing of others; the alleviation of suffering.

I have been with my girlfriend for the last 4 years, and even though she's recently started to become interested in dharma and she's starting to see through the illusory nature of reality, I know that if I leave her, she will not understand. I know that it will cause her suffering.
Renunciation seems, in my case, to be a selfish decision.

Part of me says "This may be your last incarnation, who knows when you'll be born in a body capable of grasping these truths again!" but then I think that is simply egotism.

Part of me says "What if this is nothing more than a clever philosophy, and you'll be missing your one chance at experiencing and enjoying the dynamic experiences of life if you renounce."

Part of me says "Renounciation is not necessary, it's merely tradition. Just help others and be dharmic."

Part of me says "Om"

Incidentally, I have a cousin who just bought a condo on the banks of the Ganges, and who is on a dharmic path. I also have enough saved for a plane ticket to India.


Namaste simex,

Already Atanu & yajvan have given you good advice & by the text posted by you, I am sure you understand it well enough. However, I would like to add my two cents here in the hope that it might clarify the things for better :

1. Your dilemma (and this is universal, I mean, it affects all seekers at one point or the other in life) relates to Karma Yoga. And, no one explains Karma Yoga better than Lord Krishna in Bhagwat Gita. Whenever, I face this dilemma, I ask questions :

a) What is my role in the given scenerio ? What best can I do it within given parameters ?
b) If I do it some other way, is it overall better for everyone (including me) ? Am I hurting someone ? If I am hurting, is it my Dharma in this situation ? Mind it, hurting can be Dharma in some situations. Arjuna hurts not only his dear relatives but also his teacher ( who is considered next to God) in the war ... & Lord Krishna warns that in case he refuses to do so, he will be a sinner. Similar case is there in Vyadh Gita, wherein the Vyadh ( the hunter/butcher), kills animals & sells meat & yet remains untainted from any sin.

----> The problem is in identifying our role with unattached manner in a particular situation. Once that is done, we must play our roles.

c) Running away from responsibilities is called "Rajas tyaga" & is not recommended. Doing it as a service to God just like playing our roles on a stage according to the God-written script is Karma-yoga. "He who sees Karma in Akarma & Akarma in Karma is the wise among the people & he is the doer of all Karma". "In fact, all Karmas are carried out by the three Gunas. The foolish one thinks that he is the doer & thus gets into bondage".

d) "This may be your last incarnation, who knows when you'll be born in a body capable of grasping these truths again!" ==> I am not sure what you mean by "last incarnation" but yes, getting a body capable of grasping truth again is very rare.

e) "What if this is nothing more than a clever philosophy, and you'll be missing your one chance at experiencing and enjoying the dynamic experiences of life if you renounce" ====> This is MAYA. Beware of it ! What did you get till now by "enjoying the dynamic experinces" & what can you get further if you keep doing the same ? There will be a time when you will have desires burning you but no capacity left to satisfy them. Don't wait for the time & don't you allow this happen to you. Even if it is a clever philosophy, it promises peace of mind & satisfaction & that is a good bargain.

f) "Renunciation is not necessary" ===> That is what Lord Krishna keeps saying again & again in the Gita. "Only the fools consider Karma Sanyas & the Karma Yoga different & not the wise. He who sees both of them the same in result sees the truth. The highest state which is attained by the Sanyasi is also attained by the Karma Yogi". Physical renunciation is of little value actual renunciation is by mind through non-attachment.

g) My last advice : Already this place is full of sufferings ... choose the path which reduces overall suffering.

OM

[simex]

"Some people go on a journey and come back, some never leave. What difference does it make since they travel in dreamlands, each wrapped up in his own dream. Only the waking up is important."

-Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

[atanu]

"Some people go on a journey and come back, some never leave. What difference does it make since they travel in dreamlands, each wrapped up in his own dream. Only the waking up is important."

-Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Namaste,

Thank you for a very nice citation. A thought, although somewhat un related to the OP: In a recent acrimonius thread, a few speculations came up as to what one does after the waking. IMO, the speculations are very much part of the travel in dreamlands.

Om