PDA

View Full Version : Appreciation for all faiths



atanu
05 July 2008, 10:40 AM
this life is but a dream like state of a sleeping man

said Prophet Muhammad
upon him be love of God,
'this life is nothing but
a dream like state
of a sleeping man.
only in death his
real realities awaken.'

-------------------------

http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2007/12/this-life-is-but-dream-like-state-of.html

saidevo
05 July 2008, 10:07 PM
The Advaitic Unity of the Absolute Truth as the substratum of Creation has been well expressed by many Sufi poets. The following quotes appear elsewhere also in HDF, but it is worth reading them again:


Lalla Ded:
When my mind was cleansed of impurities,
like a mirror of its dust and dirt,
I recognized the Self in me:
When I saw Him dwelling in me,
I realized that He was the Everything
and I was nothing.

I saw and found I am in everything
I saw God effulgent in everything.
After hearing and pausing see Siva
The House is His alone; Who am I, Lalla.

Shiv chuy thali thali rozan;
Mo zan Hindu to Musalman.
Truk ay chuk pan panun parzanav,
Soy chay Sahivas sati zaniy zan.

Siva pervades every place and thing;
Do not differentiate between Hindu and Musalman.
you art intelligent recognise thine own self;
That is the true acquaintance with God.

Siva is with a fine net spread out
He permeath the mortal coils
If thou whilst living canst not see
Him, how canst thou when dead
Take out Self from Self after pondering over it

Jalaluddin Rumi

Though we seem to be sleeping,
there is an inner wakefulness
that directs the dream, and
that will eventually startle us back
to the truth of who we are.
-----

The intellectual quest is exquisite like pearls and coral,
But it is not the same as the spiritual quest.
The spiritual quest is on another level altogether,
Spiritual wine has a subtler taste.
The intellect and the senses investigate cause and effect.
The spiritual seeker surrenders to the wonder.
-----

Omar Khayyam

The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

Kabir

WITHIN this earthen vessel are bowers and groves,
and within it is the Creator:
Within this vessel are the seven oceans
and the unnumbered stars.
The touchstone and the jewel-appraiser are within;
and within this vessel the Eternal soundeth,
and the spring wells up.
-----

I have been thinking ...
I have been thinking of the difference between water
and the waves on it. Rising,
water's still water, falling back,
it is water, will you give me a hint
how to tell them apart?

Because someone has made up the word
"wave," do I have to distinguish it
from water?

Hafiz

I Have Learned So much from God
That I can no longer Call Myself
A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,
A Buddhist, a Jew.

The Truth has shared so much of Itself With me
That I can no longer call myself
A man, a woman, an angel,
Or even pure Soul.

Love has Befriended Hafiz so completely
It has turned to ash And freed Me
Of every concept and image
My mind has ever known.

The first step in this affair [Sufism] is the breaking of ink-pots and the tearing-up of books and forgetting of all kinds of knowledge.
-- Abu Sa'Id Ibn Abi 'L-khayr (967 - 1049)

atanu
05 July 2008, 11:05 PM
The Advaitic Unity of the Absolute Truth as the substratum of Creation has been well expressed by many Sufi poets. The following quotes appear elsewhere also in HDF, but it is worth reading them again:


Lalla Ded:
When my mind was cleansed of impurities,
like a mirror of its dust and dirt,
I recognized the Self in me:
When I saw Him dwelling in me,
I realized that He was the Everything
and I was nothing.
---
Siva pervades every place and thing;
Do not differentiate between Hindu and Musalman.
you art intelligent recognise thine own self;
That is the true acquaintance with God.

Siva is with a fine net spread out
He permeath the mortal coils
If thou whilst living canst not see
Him, how canst thou when dead
Take out Self from Self after pondering over it

---
Hafiz
-
Love has Befriended Hafiz so completely
It has turned to ash And freed Me
Of every concept and image
My mind has ever known.



Namaste Saidevoji,

Yeh, this is the ash shiva wears with love. Thanks.

Om

bhargavsai
06 July 2008, 10:19 AM
this life is but a dream like state of a sleeping man

said Prophet Muhammad
upon him be love of God,
'this life is nothing but
a dream like state
of a sleeping man.
only in death his
real realities awaken.'

-------------------------

http://mysticsaint.blogspot.com/2007/12/this-life-is-but-dream-like-state-of.html


I am impressed with your wisdom Atanu. The realities of life which may seem unreal are very deceiving, and to understand this reality is very difficult. You have understood this reality. Although I have seen some great scholars who are well versed in all vedas, but these scholars do not understand that everything stands for One reality.

atanu
12 July 2008, 05:30 AM
--Although I have seen some great scholars who are well versed in all vedas, but these scholars do not understand that everything stands for One reality.

Namaskar Bhargavsai,

Thanks for appreciating the One reality, knowing which all hatred and misgivings should go. Yet, it is in the very nature of ignorance that such happen. We have misgivings about teachings of Prophets, but IMO, it is not the Prophet or the scripture that bear any fault. It is the ignorance about the truth of the 'One Reality' that facilitates strifes.

For support let me post a few verses from Koran:

2

84. And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).

85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

------------------------------------------
84. And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).

85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

110. Establish worship, and pay the poor due; and whatever of good ye send before (you) for your souls, ye will find it with Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of what ye do

111. And they say: None entereth Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. These are their own desires. Say: Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful.

112. Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve

163. Your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.

188. And eat not up your property among yourselves in vanity, nor seek by it to gain the hearing of the judges that ye may knowingly devour a portion of the property of others wrongfully.

204. And of mankind there is he whose conversation on the life of this world pleaseth thee (Muhammad), and he calleth Allah to witness as to that which is in his heart; yet he is the most rigid of opponents.

205. And when he turneth away (from thee) his effort in the land is to make mischief therein and to destroy the crops and the cattle; and Allah loveth not mischief.

206. And when it is said unto him: Be careful of thy duty to Allah, pride taketh him to sin. Hell will settle his account, an evil resting place

212. Beautified is the life of the world for those who disbelieve; they make a jest of the believers. But those who keep their duty to Allah will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. Allah giveth without stint to whom He will.

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

-----------

The unfortunate part is that upholders of Koran are now attached so strongly to 'Allah of their imagination' that they have forgotten that Allah is one and they have forgotten the best parts of the Koran. And IMO, same may be true to lesser or greater extent everywhere (including me of course).

Om

Znanna
12 July 2008, 03:37 PM
Namaste,

Thank you for this topic, dear Atanu.

I suspect it is the nature of human beings to lust for a satiation of "otherness" in a seach for "self." From the moment of birth, when we are cut from Mother, we seek to rationalize the trauma of separation.

If one is to be "other" ... well, then, one must strive to be BETTER than the alternative, eh?

Yet, this has nothing to do with the spiritual dictates put forward by orthodox religions as specified by their Holy texts. However, the interpretation of these texts to and by the masses then takes on the nature of the human beings doing that interpretation, and become profane.

There's a saying - "Don't trust a preacher with more than one suit."

:)



ZN

Bishawjit
04 April 2009, 08:52 AM
Atanu a question for you. According to one verse you quoted in your post says mankind belongs to one community.
If that is so how these verses appreciate all other faiths????

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

(2:257) "Those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. Such are rightful owners of the Fire."


(2:104) "For disbelievers is a painful doom."

(2:104) "For disbelievers is a painful doom."

reflections
06 April 2009, 05:49 AM
Namaste Bishawjit,
I had a luck to understand some Quranic ayats from a knowledgeable sufi friends. According to his school of thought, the graphic description of Heaven and Hell are metaphor. One who submits to divine will, is a believer irrespective of religion and is privildeged by proximity of Absolute or 'Haqq' in sufi terms. One who is attached to ego and does not submit to divine will is separated by God and in hell fire by his own desires and arrogance. However, Allah's mercy exceeds his wrath and Allah will grant Marifa (sacred knowledge) to those who strive sincerely.

I understand the fact that there are many many extremist and hardliners. And they think all other religions are false. By, all means we should defend sanatana dharma from those people. However, when it comes to understanding scripture of someone's religion, it is better to take things in context from a sincere person believing in that faith.

Bishawjit
06 April 2009, 01:46 PM
Namaste Bishawjit,
I had a luck to understand some Quranic ayats from a knowledgeable sufi friends. According to his school of thought, the graphic description of Heaven and Hell are metaphor. One who submits to divine will, is a believer irrespective of religion and is privildeged by proximity of Absolute or 'Haqq' in sufi terms. One who is attached to ego and does not submit to divine will is separated by God and in hell fire by his own desires and arrogance. However, Allah's mercy exceeds his wrath and Allah will grant Marifa (sacred knowledge) to those who strive sincerely.

I understand the fact that there are many many extremist and hardliners. And they think all other religions are false. By, all means we should defend sanatana dharma from those people. However, when it comes to understanding scripture of someone's religion, it is better to take things in context from a sincere person believing in that faith.
Namashker reflections i have got my answers in another post by the help of devotee.
regards

chandu_69
30 July 2009, 02:56 PM
Atanu a question for you. According to one verse you quoted in your post says mankind belongs to one community.
If that is so how these verses appreciate all other faiths????

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

(2:257) "Those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. Such are rightful owners of the Fire."


(2:104) "For disbelievers is a painful doom."

(2:104) "For disbelievers is a painful doom."




Atanu, it appears bought heavily in to islam apologetics arguments.
There are at least 10 verses that oppose every seemingly conciliatory verse in quran.

Also one has to see the context of the verse(from tafsirs) to understand it.For example the verse
Qur'an, 2:213 ;there is another similar verse i.e.

3:103 : And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your
hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

This verse is about Allah's advice not to quarrel for plunders(booty)-http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=507&Itemid=46
In that verse Allah is saying to the tribes in muhammad's fold not to quarrel wrt sharing booty

atanu
30 July 2009, 11:05 PM
Atanu, it appears bought heavily in to islam apologetics arguments.
In that verse Allah is saying to the tribes in muhammad's fold not to quarrel wrt sharing booty



Yes, it depends on where one draws the boundary in the indivisible.

In the page you cited there is: (109. And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back (for decision) to Allah.)

This is not surely a local warlord.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
31 July 2009, 02:38 AM
Yes, it depends on where one draws the boundary in the indivisible.

In the page you cited there is: (109. And to Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And all matters go back (for decision) to Allah.)

This is not surely a local warlord.

Om Namah Shivaya

Muhammad was a local war lord and it is he who interpreted(edited) what is in quran.Quran praises muhammad as the best of humans and there is even a verse where Allah and his angels pray on muhammad.

Btw, muhammad's version of Allah is certainly grandoise in some parts of quran and in other parts he(Allah) behaves like a petty,vindictive street arab(Chapter 111).

atanu
31 July 2009, 07:16 AM
Muhammad was a local war lord and it is he who interprets what is in quran.

Interpreter is always in the now.

Sudarshan
01 August 2009, 02:19 PM
I have no problems with appreciation of all faiths, but we need to be wary of Islam and missionary Christianity both having the potential to dislodge the foundations of sanAtana dharma - the former by the use of sword and the latter by the use of deceit.

Tolerance is respecting an alternate point of view while politely disagreeing with the view. Tolerance can exist only mutually.

All religions can be appreciated or degraded based on select quotations. But what is the reality? We must appreciate another faith only if it deserves it.

Islam was founded in violence, spread by violence and now trying to take over the world by violence. Muhammed fought in 79 wars and only a few of them were fought in self defence. Islamic countries are at constant war with one another and with their neighbours. Most of the wars in the otherwise peaceful world today are related to Islamic monotheism.

Spiritualseeker
03 August 2009, 08:51 PM
I think you will find that the Naqshbandi Haqqanis and other sufi groups are very open to other faiths. check out www.naqshbandi.org

rcscwc
07 August 2009, 01:11 AM
Nice day dreams, Atanu. Now for some nightmares.

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90

Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88

The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89

Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

Reminds me. Are you evil or a muslim?

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

For you, Atanu, a painful doom awaits.

Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Sure, sure. Look at any muslim country.

atanu
07 August 2009, 03:00 AM
For you, Atanu, a painful doom awaits.


Sorry rc. Can't believe that you are 60. I however pray that the doom should not touch you.

rcscwc
07 August 2009, 11:22 PM
Pray for yourself, Atanu. Don't worry about me.

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 01:23 AM
Like any scriptural texts quran verses have to understood in context i.e. when the context is available.The tafsirs provide the context(using the hadiths).

The context for Verse 2:39(quoted by rcscwc) is here

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=395#1

"(39. But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) ـ such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shall abide therein forever.'')"

the tafsir continues quoting other verses in support of 2:39

(But whosoever turns away from My Reminder (i.e. neither believes in this Qur'an nor acts on its teachings) verily, for him is a life of hardship, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Resurrection.) (20:124) is similar to what Allah stated here,

(But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat ـ such are the dwellers of the Fire. They shallThey shall abide therein forever), meaning, they will remain in Hell for eternity and will not find a way out of it.

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 02:15 AM
Allah revealed quran so that islam prevails over all other religions.That is the statement from quran.

quran:
9:33
P: He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

repeated in 48:28
He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion.

atanu
08 August 2009, 03:32 AM
Allah revealed quran so that islam prevails over all other religions.That is the statement from quran.

quran:
9:33
P: He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

repeated in 48:28
He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion.

That is true for those who have no faith in one's own faith. God/Self is full and faith on that fullness is sufficient. Shiva/Krishna indeed says those who submit to me are taken care of. But He also says that demons, whose hearts are hard are thrown again and again lower into hell.

Those who have no faith in fullness of Pragnya Ghana, do not know that it is Pragnya Ghana that is this Universe. It is not another that slays. It is the Self that slays the unbeliever. If one were to read scripture with good will and without intention to pick up selective verses with divisive mind, will surely find these teachings in any scripture.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 04:50 AM
It is not another that slays. It is the Self that slays the unbeliever. If one were to read scripture with good will and without intention to pick up selective verses with divisive mind, will surely find these teachings in any scripture.
Om Namah Shivaya

Oh, the Slaying.I avoided it till know but i have no option now.

Well, the quran says prophet and muslims should slay the unbelievers unless the worship Allah and Allah Alone.

09.111
Y: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Who are to be fought?

it is given explicitly here

09.029: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Is this slaying actually real?

More help in verse:

8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.

The Tafsirs will make it clear what is already obvious.http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1587&Itemid=64

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 05:28 AM
If one were to read scripture with good will and without intention to pick up selective verses with divisive mind, will surely find these teachings in any scripture.

Om Namah Shivaya

Surely the best person to explain quran is prophet muhammad himself.One cannot surmise that Muhammad was lacking in good will.

Here is the quote from Muhammad;

Sahih Bukhari, Book 2: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/sbtintro.html)Belief
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle...

rcscwc
08 August 2009, 05:39 AM
If one were to read scripture with good will and without intention to pick up selective verses with divisive mind, will surely find these teachings in any scripture.

Om Namah Shivaya
If I recall accurately, the OP has some selected sayings of Mo. Now you are complaining when more parts of koran are given. You want NOW to drag every other scripture into disrepute. Had you been honest you should have done that in OP itself.

Surely the best person to explain quran is prophet muhammad himself.One cannot surmise that Muhammad was lacking in good will.

Here is the quote from Muhammad;

Sahih Bukhari, Book 2: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/sbtintro.html)Belief
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle...
Looks like Atanu's goose is cooked by islam too.

Ganeshprasad
08 August 2009, 08:21 AM
Pranam Atanu ji


That is true for those who have no faith in one's own faith. God/Self is full and faith on that fullness is sufficient. Shiva/Krishna indeed says those who submit to me are taken care of. But He also says that demons, whose hearts are hard are thrown again and again lower into hell.

If one were to read scripture with good will and without intention to pick up selective verses with divisive mind, will surely find these teachings in any scripture.

Om Namah Shivaya


I have read no such account in Gita to suggest that one would go to hell purely because one does not believe in Krishna.

As to why some are destine for hell then this is the reason as below and not any other reason

Chapter 16, Verse 21. (http://www.asitis.com/16/21.html)
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThere are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul.

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
08 August 2009, 09:34 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

I have read no such account in Gita to suggest that one would go to hell purely because one does not believe in Krishna.

Namaste Ganeshprasad ji,

What? Shri Krishna indeed says that the demonic, whose heart is hard is thrown again and again lower into hell.


As to why some are destine for hell then this is the reason as below and not any other reason

Chapter 16, Verse 21. (http://www.asitis.com/16/21.html)
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThere are three gates leading to this hell--lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul.

Jai Shree Krishna

Yes. This what is known as the effect of shaitan (ego) in men.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 August 2009, 09:36 AM
If I recall accurately, the OP has some selected sayings of Mo. Now you are complaining when more parts of koran are given. You want NOW to drag every other scripture into disrepute. Had you been honest you should have done that in OP itself.

Looks like Atanu's goose is cooked by islam too.

Namaste RC,

I had also said something about 'divisive' intention that you forget.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 August 2009, 10:26 AM
Oh, the Slaying.I avoided it till know but i have no option now.
Well, the quran says prophet and muslims should slay the unbelievers unless the worship Allah and Allah Alone.

Namaste chandu,

Your 'no option' ultimatum is good but I expected a little more patience and introspection, unless you have made up your mind.

Allah is not one god and Shiva another. Such division are in parochial immature minds only. The following verse says what Allah is.

2.255":Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.

"2.256":There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

It is true that anyone who limits God does harm to his own self, because then he abides in ego (shaitan). Abiding in ego, which is ignorance (error) surely leads to death -- which is fire.

On the other hand:

"2.62": Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

"72.13": And that when we heard the guidance, we believed in it; so whoever believes in his Lord, he should neither fear loss nor being overtaken (by disgrace):

Please remember what Allah is, as defined in 2.255 above. Imagine now Vishnu showing His Virat rupa to Arjuna. Virat rupa fire in which all the sinners were being dragged in. Replace Allah with Rudra or just Lord.

Please do not go by the surface names. On the other hand, is God the punisher? No.

"6.104":Indeed there have come to you clear proofs from your Lord; whoever will therefore see, it is for his own soul and whoever will be blind, it shall be against himself and I am not a keeper over you.

45.15":Whoever does good, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against himself; then you shall be brought back to your -- Lord


On the other hand, killing is definitely prohibited:

"6.151":  Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you -- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty -- We provide for you and for them -- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul, which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.

Further, the advaita knowledge:

"6.98":And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

Further:

"41.54":Now surely they are in doubt as to the meeting of their Lord; now surely He encompasses all things.


And the final blow

"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

--------------------------------------

Faith in one's own Lord as the fullness, as besides Whom there is no god (one without a second), the Everliving (the life force), the Self-subsisting (needing no support) by Whom all subsist (the support for all); slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep (slumberless Rudra); whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.


such a faith will not allow any loss.

-----------------------------------------------------

But anyone believing Krishna or Shiva to be sectarian and partial are harming themselves.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 August 2009, 10:29 AM
"2.4":And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

So, Koran does not throw away the prior revelations.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 12:26 PM
Namaste

I expected a little more patience and introspection, unless you have made up your mind

Patience is important especially when you are dealing with a serious theological subject.No disagreement there.Bad are assumptions made before serious examination.


"2.4":And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

So, Koran does not throw away the prior revelations.

Quran did throw away prior revelations later(I.e. chapter 9 being the last chapter). Besides the previous revelations mentioned are Abrahamic scriptures as you can see in the same chapter

002.031
Y: And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

Chapter 2 concentrates on Jews and their scriptures.

Now, coming to the point why how previous scriptures are thrown away the reference is

013.039 : Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.

"Mother of book" i.e. Quran

And why only islam(as told by Muhammad) is acceptable is given in next chapter:

03.085 : If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

Those who discuss quranic verses are to be aware of The chronology of quran because the later verses cancel out earlier verses like
there is no compulsion in religion...

atanu
08 August 2009, 12:37 PM
Namaste
[/font][/color]

Patience is important especially when you are dealing with a serious theological subject.No disagreement there.Bad are assumptions made before serious examination.

Namaste,

I agree. Thank You.



013.039 : Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book. ...

Yes. Allah whose descriptions of being terrible to transgressors and beneficient to humble believers and who never slumbers and who is the creator of Heaven, Earth and souls --- is indeed the Vachaspati -- the Lord of vak (Gau-the cow).

Asiya Vamiya Sukta also says the same thing of Soma, the Prajapati, the Parama Vyoman, wherein the Vak is infinite.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 August 2009, 12:40 PM
Anyone beginning from the following verses will comprehend shaitan as the ego that creates a sense of separateness. And there are indicative verses on that.

"6.98":And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 12:42 PM
"2.62": Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

This verse as discussed in previous post is replaced with 3:85 .

And It is Islam and only islam.

02.196 : And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah.


"2.256":There is no compulsion in religion;

if you actually care to read the quran and it's context instead of copy pasting from online sources you will understand the context of the verse.it is about some people who just joined Islam at muhammad's time who had a custom of raising some children as jews.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=138


72.13": And that when we heard the guidance, we believed in it; so whoever believes in his Lord, he should neither fear loss nor being overtaken (by disgrace):


That His lord mentioned is nothing but Allah.

Once again it is the context.

this verse is talking about the conversation B/n the arabs and muhammad.

Arabs were telling Muhammad that they are already worshipping Allah but they dont believe Muhammad.

If there has to be any discussion it has to be based on context.Picking and choosing verses randomly from apologitic sources is a complete waste of time.

once again i have to remind that Chapter 9 is the final chapter of quran and it abrogates any previous verses that contradict it.

atanu
08 August 2009, 12:51 PM
This verse as discussed in previous post is replaced with 3:85
That His lord mentioned is nothing but Allah.


Namaste chandu,

So?

Does not Veda teach that the truth is one, sages call it by different names?

Does not Rig Veda say: Aditi is all? Does not Gita say: Vasudeva is all? Does not Yajur Veda say: Rudra has no second? Does not Mandukya Upanishad say Atman is advaita and All? Does not Shri Krishna show Arjuna the fearful form of kala, eating up the adharmic?

Check up the understanding of what Allah is. It is the full. It has no second, prejudice apart of course. Similarly Shiva has no second beside HIm, prejudice apart of course. There are not two beings without a second. There is only the Lord -- whatever name you prefer, although Svet Upanishad says that He is nameless. All the Universe is nothing but names and forms and all these fights are over these names and forms.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 12:52 PM
"6.104":Indeed there have come to you clear proofs from your Lord; whoever will therefore see, it is for his own soul and whoever will be blind, it shall be against himself and I am not a keeper over you.

It is talking about Quran and Allah.

Once again your lord is Allah.

I am once again impressing on you that You have to understand the context or atleast you should be having a knowledge of arabic to draw some conclusions.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=435#1

(Thus We explain variously the verses...)﴿6:105﴾, meaning, just as We explained the Ayat in this Surah, such as explaining Tawhid and that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 12:56 PM
"6.151":  Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you -- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him

do not associate anything with Him

.This is a very crucial point.And it is repeated several times in Quran.

It is called shirk.

The hindus who worship other Than Allah are committing the unforgivable sin called Shirk.

atanu
08 August 2009, 01:01 PM
It is talking about Quran and Allah.
I am once again impressing on you that You have to understand the context or atleast you should be having a knowledge of arabic to draw some conclusions.


I said so what? Veda also talks of veda only and worship of divinities under certain names. Does that make Veda local and time specific? It is western scholars who are bound by time see only India's early history in Veda, whereas Gurus teach us that it is sanatana. Now, the following verses do not seem to indicate that it is ONE ARAB SOUL of whicj Lord is speaking.

"6.98":And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.


You are beginning your argument from a decided premise of separate God. Whereas Allah as per above is FULL, same as Shiva. There are not two FULLNESSES.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 August 2009, 01:05 PM
[/i]do not associate anything with Him
.This is a very crucial point.And it is repeated several times in Quran.
It is called shirk.
The hindus who worship other Than Allah are committing the unforgivable sin called Shirk.


You do not understand anything of shirk. There is a Rig Veda verse, wherein sages pray to Rudra requesting to be forgiven for impure worship of Rudra, forgiven for associating other deities with Him.

Om

atanu
08 August 2009, 01:12 PM
"41.54":Now surely they are in doubt as to the meeting of their Lord; now surely He encompasses all things.

Does the above mean that He encompases only Arab things? When Isha Upanishad says the same, does it mean that Lord -Isha only encompasses Indian things?

And the final blow

"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

Do we have to understand from above that it is a prescription to us Hindus? (whereas in all other general cases, Shri Chandu emphasises that the verses are specific only for arabs). THis is a clear teaching to the followers of Quran: Purify yourself. Though ego never allows that acceptance for anyone, whether Hindu or Christian or Muslim. "Heal Thyself" and "Know Thyself" are clear common teachings of all scriptures.

;)

chandu_69
08 August 2009, 01:38 PM
"41.54":Now surely they are in doubt as to the meeting of their Lord; now surely He encompasses all things.

Does the above mean that He encompases only Arab things? When Isha Upanishad says the same, does it mean that Lord -Isha only encompasses Indian things?

He encompasses all things ;is describing Allah as powerful.Nothing about Arab or christian thing.



And the final blow

yes, Indeed.:D



"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

Do we have to understand from above that it is a prescription to us Hindus?

;)

It is talking about Jews and Allah's claim that Jews are misreading their scripture. ;)

002.040 Y: O Children of Israel!.....

Please don't waste my time anymore with your wild imaginations...

theological study is not a wild goose chase.

Peace.

atanu
08 August 2009, 08:19 PM
He encompasses all things ;is describing Allah as powerful.Nothing about Arab or christian thing.

Namaste,

Hehe. So, you are not comfortable that Allah encompasses all things? You are ignorant about all encompassing nature of Ishwara -- that is all.



It is talking about Jews and Allah's claim that Jews are misreading their scripture. ;) 002.040 Y: O Children of Israel!.....

You read only half, because you have decided something. It is talking about those who are reading the Book.;) It is primarily talking about those who are reading the BOOK.:D

And, it is as much talking about Jews, who killed Prophet. It is a general prescription for anyone. You are at fault for binding scripture to a time and place. And same injustice you are doing to Veda, Upanishad, and Ishwara. You have a-priori divided what cannot be divided.


Please don't waste my time anymore with your wild imaginations...
theological study is not a wild goose chase.
Peace.

Yes. I did not invite you. Did I? But you are welcome. If you feel you are wasting time then that also is OK. If not you then some other will sit down and read without bias. And that will be good. That will be Ishwara puja.

Theological purity does not come to a divisive mind. It does not come to those who do not meditate, contemplate and remain in the present. It does not come to those who see only one side. It does not come to those who have no faith on all encompassing nature of Ishwara. It does not come to those who consider Ishwara inadequate and take upon themselves the task of criticizing and reforming.

And this is the crisis everywhere, though the scripture teaches.

"6.98":And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

And

"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?
---------------------------

Ishwara is all encompassing. Faith on the all encompassing Ishwara as omnipotent and omniscient all beneficient Shiva (good) does not leave any doubt anywhere. But, if one, by the exhortation of Bhandasura (shaitan) forgets that it is Ishwara who is ONE and ALL-- then may Ishwara save such souls from politics and bring them back to meditation.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 August 2009, 08:34 PM
Dear Chandu and others,

This thread was started with the idea and wish to find commonality in scripture. (Brahman is the highest common being).

I request with joined palms not to fill up this thread with ideas of poisonous differences. For that politics section is there. Please.

"41.34": And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.
 
"41.35": And none are made to receive it but those who are patient, and none are made to receive it but those who have a mighty good fortune

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
08 August 2009, 09:53 PM
Namaste Atanu,

Scriptures are pointers to the Truth & not the Truth itself. When we take the words literally, the result is what RC & Chandu get. The scriptures must be understood taking the whole of it & not by simply taking what suits one's own imagination.

When I read Q'uran for the first time, I also got the same impression that RC & Chandu have. In fact, command to kill the non-believers & keeping a burning hell for the infidels made me believe that this is simply a work of a war-lord who skilfully managed to fool people for his own agenda. However, slowly my thinking changed. Lord Krishna also says, " Sarva Dharman parityajya mamekam sharnam braja" .... "Na Maam duskritino moodhah prapdyante naradhamah" ..... "Kaamstairhrat jnanah prapadyante anyadevatah" ... Now, if you take these verses literally, it would mean that Lord Krishna asks the devotee to worship "him" only in name & form & those who don't worship him & worship any other form & name of God are actually deluded & condemned to cycles of births & deaths again & again ! This gives some super-special status to the name & form we attach with Lord Krishna. .... and thus starts your thinking like the ISKCON devotees ... who have the guts to say that Lord Shiva is just a demi-god ! You can't read the scriptures like this. It is not like mugging up some story book at night & then sit down for the exams tomorrow. Spirituality is much deeper than reading the scriptures & taking it all literally.

The Q'uran says that the it should not be taken literally & that any interpretation of it out of context should not be done. However, this is what we do when we read Q'uran. We add our own words, use our own distorted meaning to the verses & never keep the context in mind when we read it. The followers of this book have been great saints like Ra'bia, Rumi, Al Mansoor etc. & also die-hard killers like Osama Bin Laden.

Do we need people who interpret Q'uran as Osama Bin Laden does or those who interpret it they way Ra'bia, Rumi, Al Mansoor etc. did ? What is spiritually uplifting & what is good for the humanity ?

OM

atanu
08 August 2009, 11:36 PM
Do we need people who interpret Q'uran as Osama Bin Laden does or those who interpret it they way Ra'bia, Rumi, Al Mansoor etc. did ? What is spiritually uplifting & what is good for the humanity ?
OM

Namaste Devotee,

I agree fully. The key is always understanding the underlying Advaita and then act with love -- that does not obviate the need to discriminate Evil from Good in the phenomenal world. The key verse that I found in Kuran is:

"41.34": And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.
And also:

"6.98":And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.
And
"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?
-------------------------------------
I agree with you completely (as stated in the thread of Bhavisya Purana) that we also need to understand: "Sarva Dharman parityajya mamekam sharnam braja----".

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31018&postcount=5
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31020&postcount=6

One who understands Ghana-Shyam as Pragnya-Ghana will grasp the Self as well.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 03:14 AM
Namaste



Hehe. So, you are not comfortable that Allah encompasses all things? You are ignorant about all encompassing nature of Ishwara -- that is all.

Nothing of that sort.I am merely correcting your out of the turn interpretation.




You read only half, because you have decided something. It is talking about those who are reading the Book.;) It is primarily talking about those who are reading the BOOK.:D

And, it is as much talking about Jews, who killed Prophet. It is a general prescription for anyone. You are at fault for binding scripture to a time and place.

I not only read the full verse i also read the entire chapter to understand what is the subject.it appears you have not learned anything from the debacle of finding advaita in quran.

The only BOOK Allah talks is Abrahamic scriptures.

\ 002.035 And We said: O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden[/b], and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.

2:49: And (remember) when We did deliver you from Pharaoh's folk, ...

2:50 : And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned
Pharaoh people within your very sight.

002.051 : And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence
ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

02.053 : And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between
right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.
002.054: And remember Moses said to his people:
2:55: And remember ye said: "O Moses!.


It is biblical/torah characters all the way.
The only scripture Allah is aware of Is Biblical






if you feel you are wasting time then that also is OK.

Well, it may be ok for you it is not for me.Still i will oblige you.


If not you then some other will sit down and read without bias. And that will be good. That will be Ishwara puja.Reading without bias means finding Ishwara in Biblical narrations.?:(


Theological purity does not come to a divisive mind.

First learn to read the subject in detail and then talk about purity.


It does not come to those who do not meditate, contemplate and remain in the present. It does not come to those who see only one side. It does not come to those who have no faith on all encompassing nature of Ishwara.

[U]Please Cut the hyperbole and learn to read.


And this is the crisis everywhere, though the scripture teaches.


"6.98":And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

And that crisis is severe in the case of ATANU who picks random verses and make some embarrassing conclusions like finding Advaita in quran


And that Single soul is ADAM (of the Adam and eve).

repeating ad nauseum and spamming with same verses again and again doesn't make you right.

Though i hate spamming i repeat the relevant verse once again.

The single soul mentioned is ADAM.

Here is the story of "single soul" once again in detail.

004.001 : O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from
a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women

And


"2.44":What! do you enjoin men to be good and neglect your own souls while you read the Book; have you then no sense?

Being Good means Following Allah's directives.

Nothing more nothing less.

and that directives include looting civilians property after raiding and killing people.Enslaving women and children.

Chapter 8:
AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

8:67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made
slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah
desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

008.069 Y: But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah:
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

and more

Allah's right path:

Allah promiseth you much booty that ye will capture, and hath given
you this in advance, and hath withheld men's hands from you, that it
may be a token for the believers, and that He may guide you on a right
path.

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 03:25 AM
Allah's right path:
Chapter 8:
AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

8:67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

008.069 : But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

048.020 Allah promiseth you much booty that ye will capture, and hath given you this in advance, and hath withheld men's hands from you, that it may be a token for the believers, and that He may guide you on a right
path.


BOOTY AHOY..

That is the right path of Allah.

atanu
09 August 2009, 05:31 AM
Namaste
Nothing of that sort.I am merely correcting your out of the turn interpretation.


Namaste Chandu,

You are providing christian translations. The actual translation is somewhat different. It is not fitting for a Prophet to hold prisoners in ransom untill the whole land is subdued. Followed by a warning for wrongful ransoms. And whatever you cite does not over ride:

"6.151":  Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you -- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty -- We provide for you and for them -- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul, which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.


I agree with you completely that correction of understanding is required. Ishwara is all knowing.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...18&postcount=5
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...20&postcount=6

Regards and I repeat my request. I request with joined palms not to fill up this thread with ideas of poisonous differences. For that politics section is there. Please.

Om Namah Shivaya

devotee
09 August 2009, 05:38 AM
Namaste Chandu,

Sorry, I have no intention to come in between your discussion but I would like to point out certain things :


The only BOOK Allah talks is Abrahamic scriptures.

Why does this spring any surprise among us ? How many Hindu Gods have ever spoken about Bible & Q'uran ?


And that Single soul is ADAM (of the Adam and eve).

I didn't find Allah mentioning Adam in those verses. Moreover, if One Soul results into many ... i.e. entire humanity, I see One-ness in all because in essence it was One Soul to begin with. ... and where did Adam's soul come from ? What is the source of that Adam soul ? So, can't we say that finally That One Source is coming into being as all the souls on this earth ?

What you are saying is what the Muslim population/scholars too believe & that way you are right. However, just for a while, let's try to see the meaning of those verses the way Atanu interprets. Isn't it the really correct interpretation ? I find it wonderful ! Such an interpretation can come only from a true Advaitin.

Regarding War booty ... lit would be wrong to take it as eternal spiritual truth ... it was just a rule of war .... may be correct for a particular time & place when this book was written. The problem with Q'uran is that there are many verses which were meant for that time & place but have been interpreted as eternal truth.

OM

atanu
09 August 2009, 05:51 AM
Namaste Chandu
What you are saying is what the Muslim population/scholars too believe & that way you are right.

Namaste Devotee,
Do all Muslim scholars and sages believe that way?


Regarding War booty ... lit would be wrong to take it as eternal spiritual truth ... it was just a rule of war .... may be correct for a particular time & place when this book was written. The problem with Q'uran is that there are many verses which were meant for that time & place but have been interpreted as eternal truth.
OM
Regarding the war Booty, the first verse in the Book 8 says: The war booty belongs to Lord and no one else. It is khatriya dharma to wage war on adharmic. Did not Pandavas capture all from Kauravas? All is fair in War and Love. But the spiritual dicate is only "Karma as worship of God". The main point is why we forget our own scripture?



Gita
18.61. The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine!

18.62. Fly unto Him for refuge with all thy being, O Arjuna! By His Grace thou shalt obtain supreme peace and the eternal abode.

18.66. Abandoning all duties, take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not.
--------------------------------------------------
And I also cannot forget the following gems:


"41.34": And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.
It is indeed the evil called Bhandasura (non-existent ego) that creates an idea of differences which are unbridgable and lead to bloodshed. Moreover, Bhavisya Purana clarifies the whole issue. Though different in all aspects from Vedic practices but the Musal was indeed instituted by none other than Lord Ishwara. Can anything happen without His knowing and concurrence?

There is no chance of Love manifesting in those who ignore verses such as below by attributing them to Adam, implying that Adam is a foreigner, different from Purusha. As if Purusha excludes anything? Ha.:D First let us instill faith in our scripture and believe that nothing is beyond Ishwara, who Rig Veda says, has dominion over whole of Earth and Heaven. He is the Seer and Knower of all.




6.98":. And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.

"31.28":Neither your creation nor your raising is anything but as a single soul; surely Allah is Hearing, Seeing.

"6.151":  Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you -- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty -- We provide for you and for them -- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul, which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.


Whatever Shri chandu insinuates is contrary to the stated prohibitions. Do we not see people of any religion as cheaters and thugs, despite the stated prohibitions? Moses was forbidden use of any weapon. Don't Israelis use weapons of mass murder? Jews were asked to shear away the prepuce from their Hearts. They shear away the Penis.

I request Shri Chandu to please take his views to the Politics section.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 06:31 AM
Namaste


Namaste Chandu,

You are providing christian translations.

No, that is Pikthal translation.You can refer about 10 translations at http://islamawakened.com/Quran/8/67/default.htm

It is Killing/slaughter..

Subdue by killing/slaughter.


The actual translation is somewhat different. It is not fitting for a Prophet to hold prisoners in ransom untill the whole land is subdued.

That translation you picked up from apologetics site:



"6.151":  Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you -- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty -- We provide for you and for them -- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul, which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand. [/i]

Hahaha this verse is not about war or ransom..

You have an amazing ability to join together unrelated things and draw conclusions of your own.

Btw, Allah says in many places in quran it is injustice not worshipping Allah.

I already posted verses 9:29 9:111 etc

Now who are unjust and abominable...one more quote

8:55 For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe



and I repeat my request. I request with joined palms not to fill up this thread with ideas of poisonous differences. For that politics section is there. Please.
Om Namah Shivaya

I also request you not to degrade hinduism to suit your purposes.

Btw, the poison is not mine.the divisive things of believers vs unbelievers is not mine.

They are all From Allah.

atanu
09 August 2009, 06:49 AM
Namaste

That translation you picked up from apologetics site:
? Who are those? The first line of the same book says that all booty belongs to God. As Rig Veda says that all spoils belong to Rudra.

Hahaha this verse is not about war or ransom..
So what. The injunction is not to kill, except for justice. That is not over-ridden.

Btw, Allah says in many places in quran it is injustice not worshipping Allah.
So what. It is foolish to consider anything outside of Ishwara. If one believes in Ishwara (who Veda says is EKO and Sarva and has dominion over the Earth and Heaven), then you will not be able to see and fear a second controller.

8:55 For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe
I have said several times that the definitions of Ishwara/Brahman and also of Allah do not leave anything as a SECOND. There cannot be two ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.:)

I also request you not to degrade hinduism to suit your purposes.
You consider Ishwara as a Second to Allah -- Not me.

Btw, the poison is not mine.the divisive things of believers vs unbelievers is not mine.They are all From Allah.

Fully accepted.

The institution of Musal is as per command of Ishwara, as described in Bhavisya Purana. Ishwara is all knowing.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31018&postcount=5
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31020&postcount=6
Regards and I repeat my request. I request with joined palms not to fill up this thread with ideas of differences, when the soul is said to be one in both scripture. For that politics section is there. Please.

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 06:56 AM
Namaste


Sorry, I have no intention to come in between your discussion but I would like to point out certain things :

No problem.



Why does this spring any surprise among us ? How many Hindu Gods have ever spoken about Bible & Q'uran ? Bible and quran didnt exist when they were written.So no surprise.




I didn't find Allah mentioning Adam in those verses. Moreover, if One Soul results into many ... i.e. entire humanity, I see One-ness in all because in essence it was One Soul to begin withThat is the biblical story of Adam and Eve reproduced in Quran.

Check the verse:

2:35: And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.




.. ... and where did Adam's soul come from ?.What is the source of that Adam soul ? From clay/dust.

003.059 : The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.


So, can't we say that finally That One Source is coming into being as all the souls on this earth ?That one source is ADAM and eve(His wife) was created from him(4:1).


What you are saying is what the Muslim population/scholars too believe & that way you are right. However, just for a while, let's try to see the meaning of those verses the way Atanu interprets. Isn't it the really correct interpretation ? I find it wonderful ! Such an interpretation can come only from a true Advaitin. That interpretation is wonderful and only true neo-hindu can do that.meanwhile the details given in quran explicitly prohibits such interpretation.


Regarding War booty ... lit would be wrong to take it as eternal spiritual truth ... it was just a rule of warIt is a gift From Allah..Allah describes it as bounty i suggest people to read chapter 8 fully
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/008.qmt.html.

Yes, BOOTY is a rule of war and it is for eternity.
Nothing to indicate even remotely it is for a specific time.

BOOTY also includes women and they can be used for sex

023.005: Who abstain from sex,

023.006 : Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

atanu
09 August 2009, 07:05 AM
Namaste

Bible and quran didnt exist when they were written.So no surprise.

That is a very big problem. Veda is timeless.


That is the biblical story of Adam and Eve reproduced in Quran.

So? Are there not descriptions of how Atman picked up Purusha from the waters (Aitereya). Why do you think that anything is outside saharsa shira purusha? As stated several times earlier, the institution of Musal is as per command of Ishwara, as described in Bhavisya Purana. Ishwara is all knowing.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31018&postcount=5
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31020&postcount=6

I again request that you create another thread for your ideas, which are abundantlly known.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
09 August 2009, 07:20 AM
Deleted

atanu
09 August 2009, 08:37 AM
Namaste

That is the biblical story of Adam and Eve reproduced in Quran.

Namaste,
No. Please check.

"2.34": And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
"2.35": And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.

In presence of Adam was Iblis and all angels -- so, its not the one soul being taught as below:

6.98":. And He it is Who has brought you into being from a single soul, then there is (for you) a resting-place and a depository; indeed We have made plain the communications for a people who understand.
---------------------------------
Further proof of beginning of soul from a soul less dark night is below:

"The Nightly Visitant"
   
   In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
"86.1":    I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
"86.2":    And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
"86.3":    The star of piercing brightness;
"86.4":    There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.
"86.5":    So let man consider of what he is created:
"86.6":    He is created of water pouring forth,
"86.7":    Coming from between the back and the ribs.
"86.8":    Most surely He is able to return him (to life).

Is it different from the knowledge of Pragnya Ghana unto which every soul enters in deep sleep and loses the soul? Knowing the Pragnya Ghana Sarvesvara is a guarantee for everlasting bliss. I request humbly of all friends to consider the verses. Consider full of it but consider "Coming from between the back and the ribs".

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 08:42 AM
Namaste:

Subject:"spoils of war"

The Gita also mentions spoils of war.It is about becoming the ruler.It is not a license to loot and rape the civilians.

In Islam nothing everything is allowed.

Will Durant has written in his Story of Civilisation:
(vol1 Chapter 6-http://www.scribd.com/doc/15040527/Muslim-Conquest-of-India-Will-Ariel-Durant)
"
the Mohammedan conquest of India was probably the bloodiest story in history.

India before the advent of Islamic imperialism was not exactly a zone of peace. There were plenty of wars fought by Hindu princes. But in all their wars, the Hindus had observed some time-honoured conventions sanctioned by the săstras. The Brahmins and the Bhikshus were never molested. The cows were never killed. The temples were never touched. The chastity of women was never violated. The non-combatants were never killed or captured. A human habitation was never attacked unless it was a fort. The civil population was never plundered. War booty was an unknown item in the calculations of conquerors. The martial classes who clashed, mostly in open spaces, had a code of honour. Sacrifice of honour for victory or material gain was deemed as worse than death.

My comments://"The time honored traditions came from mahabharata war:"//

Islamic imperialism came with a different code - the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield.
It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujăhids (holy warriors) and ghăzîs (kăfir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.

"

atanu
09 August 2009, 08:43 AM
Further proof of beginning of soul from a soul less dark night is below:

"The Nightly Visitant"
   
   In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
"86.1":    I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
"86.2":    And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
"86.3":    The star of piercing brightness;
"86.4":    There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.
"86.5":    So let man consider of what he is created:
"86.6":    He is created of water pouring forth,
"86.7":    Coming from between the back and the ribs.
"86.8":    Most surely He is able to return him (to life).

Is it different from the knowledge of Pragnya Ghana unto which every soul enters in deep sleep and loses the soul? Knowing the Pragnya Ghana Sarvesvara is a guarantee for everlasting bliss. I request humbly of all friends to consider the verses. Consider full of it but consider "Coming from between the back and the ribs".

Om Namah Shivaya

Either the Seer of the above lines is a copier of Mandukya Upanishad or a blessed soul, who has direct experience of what Shushupti is.

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 08:51 AM
Now, what is the sunnah of the prophet:

How to treat the civilans?

From biography of prophet(Sirat rasul Allah)
Written by devout muslims:

Ishaq:510 “We ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.


Hadith:


Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 432:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their PRICES, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.



The slaves can be impregnated before they are sold:


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512:


Narrated Anas:
The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile---//hostile is added by muslim trasnlator...//) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet . The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'.

atanu
09 August 2009, 08:57 AM
I requested Chandu through pm to create a separate thread. But he likes this thread very much. So, be it.

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=31039&postcount=57

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 08:59 AM
"86.6": He is created of water pouring forth,

"86.7": Coming from between the back and the ribs.

That water mentioned is SEMEN.(Coming from between the back and the ribs).
B/N BACK(SPINE) AND RIBS.

chandu_69
09 August 2009, 09:06 AM
So what. The injunction is not to kill, except for justice. That is not over-ridden.

Over ridden by whom? Atanu?.

The injunction to kill unbelievers is delivered in final chapter of quran i.e. chapter 9.

009.029
: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



So what. It is foolish to consider anything outside of Ishwara. If one believes in Ishwara (who Veda says is EKO and Sarva and has dominion over the Earth and Heaven), then you will not be able to see and fear a second controller.

But that foolishness is allowed in hinduism.No Commands to Kill worshippers of other god(s).


I have said several times that the definitions of Ishwara/Brahman and also of Allah do not leave anything as a SECOND. There cannot be two ONE WITHOUT A SECOND.:) Sure, there cannot be two without a second.
But one is allowed to hold a different opinion and LIVE in hinduism.


You consider Ishwara as a Second to Allah -- Not me.Don't insult god,Please...

atanu
09 August 2009, 09:06 AM
That water mentioned is SEMEN.(Coming from between the back and the ribs).
B/N BACK(SPINE) AND RIBS.


Ya. The thoughts are as is the quality of mind. I think some scrotums are encased within the Ribs.

"The Nightly Visitant"
   
   In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
"86.1":    I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
"86.2":    And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
"86.3":    The star of piercing brightness;
"86.4":    There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.
"86.5":    So let man consider of what he is created:
"86.6":    He is created of water pouring forth,
"86.7":    Coming from between the back and the ribs.
"86.8":    Most surely He is able to return him (to life).

Moreover, all commoners know that semen create children. But very few know the soul less shushupti, which is of piercing brightness that brings forth the Man -- the purusha, after whom Usha comes and the Universe.

And surely the piercing brightness is not a female unto which the waters are poured from between the ribs and the back.

hey rAma.

Om Namah Shivaya

rcscwc
09 August 2009, 08:13 PM
Atanu
That semen creates children is age old knowledge predating islam. Nothing new about it. What new knowledge has been given? If allah has the same attributes as Brahma, don't you think it is a redundant entity?

atanu
09 August 2009, 11:08 PM
That semen creates children is age old knowledge predating islam. Nothing new about it. What new knowledge has been given?

Namaste rc,

The verse above does not talk about semen and all that. It teaches that the comer by night is the star of piercing brightness.

If you read Mandukya Upanishad and Shushupti, then it may be clear. No doubt it is not 'bodhgamya' now.


If allah has the same attributes as Brahma, don't you think it is a redundant entity?
Let us know whether we are redundant or not, as Brahman is all.

Om

chandu_69
13 August 2009, 05:46 PM
Ya. The thoughts are as is the quality of mind. I think some scrotums are encased within the Ribs.

Reading your logic i tend to think some may have them b/n the ears.


"The Nightly Visitant".

Who is he?.Actually Allah is Swearing by Him.Allah btw also swears on a fig among other things.
   


Moreover, all commoners know that semen create children.

Allah of Quran doesnt happen to think any differently.

32:8 Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;

053.045-46 :And that He createth the two spouses, the male and the female,
From a drop (of seed) when it is poured forth;

And the clincher:

75.037 Y: Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?

P: Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
S: Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,




But very few know the soul less shushupti, which is of piercing brightness that brings forth the Man -- the purusha, after whom Usha comes and the Universe.

And surely the piercing brightness is not a female unto which the waters are poured from between the ribs and the back.

hey rAma.

Om Namah Shivayathe piercing brightness is a star.Read the title of the chapter 86:

AT-TARIQ (THE MORNING STAR, THE NIGHTCOMER)
Total Verses: 17 Revealed At: MAKKA

atanu
15 August 2009, 04:36 AM
Reading your logic i tend to think some may have them b/n the ears.

Who is he?.Actually Allah is Swearing by Him.Allah btw also swears on a fig among other things.

Allah of Quran doesnt happen to think any differently.

32:8 Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;

053.045-46 :And that He createth the two spouses, the male and the female,
From a drop (of seed) when it is poured forth;

And the clincher:

75.037 Y: Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?

P: Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
S: Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,

the piercing brightness is a star.Read the title of the chapter 86:

AT-TARIQ (THE MORNING STAR, THE NIGHTCOMER)
Total Verses: 17 Revealed At: MAKKA


That's true. Every form starts from semen (also called waters-apah) in Vedas. THe nightly visitant is obviously the keeper of all who The star of piercing brightness.

"The Nightly Visitant"
   
   In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
"86.1":    I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
"86.2":    And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
"86.3":    The star of piercing brightness;
"86.4":    There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.
"86.5":    So let man consider of what he is created:
"86.6":    He is created of water pouring forth,
"86.7":    Coming from between the back and the ribs.
"86.8":    Most surely He is able to return him (to life).

Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
15 August 2009, 10:09 AM
That's true. Every form starts from semen (also called waters-apah) in Vedas.

What a turn around :D.

A couple of posts back you were saying It is somebody with a errr low mind interprets it as Semen.

Btw. pls stop meddling with Vedic literature to glorify islam.

Apah means water.Plain and simple.

atanu
16 August 2009, 05:32 AM
What a turn around .

A couple of posts back you were saying It is somebody with a errr low mind interprets it as Semen.

Btw. pls stop meddling with Vedic literature to glorify islam.

Apah means water.Plain and simple.


I-ii-1: There was nothing whatsoever here in the beginning. It was covered only by Death (Hiranyagarbha), or Hunger, for hunger is death. He created the mind, thinking, ‘Let me have a mind’. He moved about worshipping (himself). As he was worshipping, water was produced. (Since he thought), ‘As I was worshipping, water sprang up’, therefore Arka (fire) is so called. Water (or happiness) surely comes to one who knows how Arka (fire) came to have this name of Arka.
I-ii-2: Water is Arka. What was there (like) forth on the water was solidified and became this earth. When that was produced, he was tired. While he was (thus) tired and distressed, his essence, or lustre, came forth. This was Fire.
--------------------------------------
Sorry chandu,


We are, it seems talking from two different planes. Some see only semen. They dwell in forms and consequently in politics. Others are able to understand what is Pragnya Ghana, to which everyone enters while in deep sleep. Such see the spirit whose nature is intelligent, light and heat. From Tapas is water generated. Water is all.


"86.2":    And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
"86.3":    The star of piercing brightness;
"86.4":    There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.

Just for the sake of politics and hatred do not degrade any scripture.





Om Namah Shivaya

chandu_69
16 August 2009, 07:03 AM
I-ii-1: There was nothing whatsoever here in the beginning. It was covered only by Death (Hiranyagarbha), or Hunger, for hunger is death. He created the mind, thinking, ‘Let me have a mind’. He moved about worshipping (himself). As he was worshipping, water was produced. (Since he thought), ‘As I was worshipping, water sprang up’, therefore Arka (fire) is so called. Water (or happiness) surely comes to one who knows how Arka (fire) came to have this name of Arka.
I-ii-2: Water is Arka. What was there (like) forth on the water was solidified and became this earth. When that was produced, he was tired. While he was (thus) tired and distressed, his essence, or lustre, came forth. This was Fire.



No body sees any mention or implication of semen here.Not any Hindu scholar i am aware of.


Sorry chandu,

We are, it seems talking from two different planesCannot disagree with that.


Some see only semen. They dwell in forms and consequently in politics. Others are able to understand what is Pragnya Ghana, to which everyone enters while in deep sleep. Such see the spirit whose nature is intelligent, light and heat. From Tapas is water generated. Water is all.Once again no body sees any implication of semen in The Hiranya Garbha description.It is outrageous for anybody to suggest that.




Just for the sake of politics and hatred do not degrade any scripture.


That is exactly what i am trying to tell you.Dont degrade or misinterpret any scripture.

I dont understand why you think muslim scholars are degrading their own scriptures

In addition to the other quranic verses that say it is semen,Here is the tafsir on verses 86:6-7

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1200&Itemid=142

He is created from a water gushing forth.) meaning, the sexual fluid that comes out bursting forth from the man and the woman. Thus, the child is produced from both of them by the permission of Allah. Due to this Allah says,
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest.

From what i see from your arguments that you think you are better placed than all the muslim scholars to understand quran and anybody who dont accept your argument is a hater.

I see a similar argument of yours with regards to christianity at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3899&page=8 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=30870&postcount=92)

atanu
17 August 2009, 10:29 AM
No body sees any mention or implication of semen here.Not any Hindu scholar i am aware of. ---Once again no body sees any implication of semen in The Hiranya Garbha description.It is outrageous for anybody to suggest that. ---- That is exactly what i am trying to tell you.Dont degrade or misinterpret any scripture. ----I dont understand why you think muslim scholars are degrading their own scriptures.


In addition to the other quranic verses that say it is semen,Here is the tafsir on verses 86:6-7 -- http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1200&Itemid=142


He is created from a water gushing forth.) meaning, the sexual fluid that comes out bursting forth from the man and the woman.


Namaste chandu,


I-ii-1: There was nothing whatsoever here in the beginning. It was covered only by Death (Hiranyagarbha), or Hunger, for hunger is death. He created the mind, thinking, ‘Let me have a mind’. He moved about worshipping (himself). As he was worshipping, water was produced. (Since he thought), ‘As I was worshipping, water sprang up’, therefore Arka (fire) is so called. Water (or happiness) surely comes to one who knows how Arka (fire) came to have this name of Arka.
I-ii-2: Water is Arka. What was there (like) forth on the water was solidified and became this earth. When that was produced, he was tired. While he was (thus) tired and distressed, his essence, or lustre, came forth. This was Fire.


-------------------------------


That is what I said. Those who want to see semen as the source of creation cannot see beyond and do not see the tapas of consciousness as the source of water (happiness) gushing forth.


In deep sleep there is nothing whatsoever, except the person as pure consciousness. What happens in the waking state is a picture played on the pure consciousness and most of us take that picture as the reality. The semen and the egg and all biology come within that picture. To this erroneus waking state picture of the 'body as the source of bliss' are bound all pasus, without exception.


Brahma Sutra relates the sperm cycle, as if. Through rains come down souls to plants. Semen is then formed in bodies upon eating the food and that semen is deposited in females. But all this is in waking consciousness.


But the same person in deep sleep attains the state of pure consciousness called Pragnya Ghana, wherein He is alone. From this Pragnya Ghana emerges the Taijjassa -- the dream state, which is the bridge to the waking state, wherein the joy is equated to gushing forth of semen. But actually the bliss is the Pragnya Ghana, which is ever present.


--------------------------------
The physical man who comes from the semen is limited. But the Purusha who knows the Pragnya Ghana is full, wherefrom all states are.


"The Nightly Visitant"
   
   In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
"86.1":    I swear by the heaven and the comer by night;
"86.2":    And what will make you know what the comer by night is?
"86.3":    The star of piercing brightness;
"86.4":    There is not a soul but over it is a keeper.
"86.5":    So let man consider of what he is created:
"86.6":    He is created of water pouring forth,
"86.7":    Coming from between the back and the ribs.
"86.8":    Most surely He is able to return him (to life).



In the above verse, as in the Brihadaraynaka verse, there is no semen (I klnow you will be sarcastic).


There is no soul (truly there is no soul in deep sleep).There is only the star of piercing brightness who is a keeper of All (truly only the Turya is the keeper of the Pragnya Ghana. And truly He is like thousand suns risen together).


When there is no soul but only the keeper of piercing brightness, there surely is no female and no male to copulate and semen to gush forth. What gushes forth is water, also called consciousness- Narayana in Vedanta parlance.


From the Pragnya Ghana, God returns All souls.
-----------------------------------


I know that nothing will satisfy you. And, ironically, while criticising all that is in Islam, you will quote Muslim scholars in support of your hypothesis.


Just like 'The Dead Sea of unlimited riches' is mis-interpreted by the Jew intellectuals as the physical dead sea that contains, according to the so-called scholars, precious salts, the some other scholars fail to see ""86.3":The star of piercing brightness; "86.4":There is not a soul but over it is a keeper. "

And that is my point all through. The scripture is Devi. But perverted scholars do introduce blemish, cause hatred to rise, colour that which is Guna free as sectarian. I request you to please pause and consider, and desist being sarcastic. I am not talking of politics at all.


Water is Arka. But Arka is Fire.

That is the beauty of scripture, for those who ponder. For the bearded war mongerers the beauty goes into hiding. Their goals are not spiritual, or Self Realisation or upliftment of all but something else.

Om Namah Shivaya