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View Full Version : Why is there antagonism between Sikhism and Sanatan Dharma?



Harjas Kaur
05 July 2008, 01:59 PM
deleted

devotee
06 July 2008, 04:52 AM
I would explore certain tuuks of Gurbani which talked about Vedic concepts I would get attacked, the interpretation would be invalidated and it was generally a "no-no." Well, I'm tired of that, and I'm interested in hearing viewpoints of people with better knowledge of Vedas, Upanishads, Advaita, Vaishnava, etc, to see what insights can be gleaned from these concepts in Gurbani.

Namaste Harjas Kaur ji,

By reading your post, it appears that you have already found the hidden pearl ! :)

Whenever religion gets an organised form, there is an organisation which tries to maintain its own unique identity & for fear of losing its identity, it advocates strongly against anything which may later on threaten its authority. This has happened to all religions which were organised ... Christianity, Islam, Judaism ... everywhere ... there is an effort to show that OUR belief is better than the Others' ... We know the Truth better than all others ... & like that ! Let's not forget that the survival of the organisation depends upon herding its members together & save them from losing to "other" faiths ! This thinking is the root cause of all the bloodshed in the religion in this world.


This is what happened in Hinduism too. Guru Nanak was a Hindu, Lord Buddha was a Hindu, Mahaveer was a Hindu & I find that in their quest for Truth, they all found the same Non-dual Brahman which is there in the Vedas, though they didn't accept the orthodox rituals of the Hindus. Rituals are not the Truth & vary from time to time & from place to place but the Truth cannot be different. In fact, within Hindus too, the rituals of one community doesn't match with the other. So, we do not become different just because we have different rituals for different occasions. The Non-dual Truth realised by the Rishis, the Lord Buddha & Lord Mahaveer & Guru Nanak was the same. How can it be different ?The test of Truthfulness of the Truth must lie in its non-changeability in any circumstances.

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||

Showering His Mercy, He has blended me into Himself. ||21||

These two verses show that Guru Nanak attained Non-duality with the all pervading GOD/SELF.



Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

It resonates with Taittriya Upanishad : "From where the words turn back" (Chapter IX.1). Kena Upanishad, " The eye doesn't go there, nor speech, nor mind".


The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.This is certainly about the three Gunas which Lord Krishna talks about in Gita : The Sattva Guna, the Rajas Guna & the Tamas Guna.


He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes.
It is Conciousness - birthless, motionless & non-material, as well as tranquil & non-dual - which has semblence of birth, apears to move & simulates a substance ( possessed of attributes). -- (Mandukya Upanishad, IV.45)


Describe the One Lord as One, and Only One; O Nanak, He is the One, and the many. ||1||

"This birthless SELF becomes differentiated verily through Maya & it does so in no other way than this. "" This world when ascertained from the standpoint of its essential nature, doen't exist in its own right. Nor do phenomenal things as diiferent or non-different". --- Mandukya Upanishad

------------------------

OM

Harjas Kaur
06 July 2008, 11:29 AM
deleted

TatTvamAsi
06 July 2008, 07:50 PM
Namaste Harjas Kaur,

Devotee gave a wonderful response to your first post.

With regards to eating meat, the answer is quite simple. Although the Vedas don't explicitly denounce eating meat, it infers time and time again that for Sadhakas (seekers of the Truth), abstinence not only from meat eating, but from indulgence of any of the desires/senses.

The fact is that eating meat and constantly indluging in sense-pleasures pulls one outward whereas the goal of Sadhana is to go inward. Therefore, anything that would help withdrawal and/or control of the senses, desires, and other distractions is highly recommended by the Rishis and the Scriptures. Eating meat is one of them.

Even if one is not a Sadhaka, refraining from eating meat is considered "good" because it shows control of one's desire to indulge. Apart from the various health benefits of vegetarianism, slaughter of animals is detrimental to one's Sanchita Karma.

Subham.

Harjas Kaur
07 July 2008, 12:53 AM
deleted

satay
07 July 2008, 10:56 AM
Namaskar,
Most of the sikhs I know and grew up with justify eating meat by relating to a story of Guru Gobind Singh.

It is said that Guru Gobind was in a fight with Moguls and took shelter in a forest with his sainiks. There they stayed for many days without food and water. When they couldn't find any plants to survive on, Guru reluctantly gave orders to his group to hunt an animal and eat. Thus it is justified by many sikhs that Guru Gobind singh allowed eating meat even if you have taken the 'Amrit'.

Also, since sikhism was born as a fighting force against islam and sikhs are 'fighters' it is assumed that eating meat is allowed to enhance the kshatriya qualities. Some kshatriya also justify eating meat with this logic i.e. to fight against an enemy they need to enhance their non-spiritual instincts and eating meat does that.

However, I don't know of any sikhs (or kshatriya for that matter) in India that actually eat beef. Cows are even more sacred to the sikhs than to Hindus since a cow is a kisan's roji roti.

Harjas Kaur
07 July 2008, 03:38 PM
deleted

Singh Khalsa
27 October 2008, 06:04 AM
Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh!


Namaste Harjas Kaur ji,

By reading your post, it appears that you have already found the hidden pearl ! :)

Whenever religion gets an organised form, there is an organisation which tries to maintain its own unique identity & for fear of losing its identity, it advocates strongly against anything which may later on threaten its authority. This has happened to all religions which were organised ... Christianity, Islam, Judaism ... everywhere ... there is an effort to show that OUR belief is better than the Others' ... We know the Truth better than all others ... & like that ! Let's not forget that the survival of the organisation depends upon herding its members together & save them from losing to "other" faiths ! This thinking is the root cause of all the bloodshed in the religion in this world.

There is nothing wrong with maintaining a distinct identity, this is something that has been COMMANDED by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj himself:

"Jab Lag Khalsa Rahay Nyara, Tab Lag Tej Diyoon Main Sara, Jab Eh Gaye Birpan Ki Reet, Main Na Karoon In Ki Parteet"
- As long as the Khalsa remain distinct, I will give them my support, when they start to follow the ways of Brahmins, I shall withdraw from them my support.



Guru Nanak was a Hindu....
& I find that in their quest for Truth, they all found the same Non-dual Brahman which is there in the Vedas, though they didn't accept the orthodox rituals of the Hindus. Rituals are not the Truth & vary from time to time & from place to place but the Truth cannot be different. In fact, within Hindus too, the rituals of one community doesn't match with the other. So, we do not become different just because we have different rituals for different occasions. The Non-dual Truth realised by the Rishis, the Lord Buddha & Lord Mahaveer & Guru Nanak was the same. How can it be different ?The test of Truthfulness of the Truth must lie in its non-changeability in any circumstances.
My friend I am afraid you don't understand who exactly Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj is! Guru Nanak Dev Ji is GOD himself, how can you say that God has a religion? Gurbani states that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj is the lord himself who has wielded his power and entered the world, how can you call the Lord himself a Hindu? How can you say that Guru Nanak Dev Ji realised God when he himself was God from the start?



These two verses show that Guru Nanak attained Non-duality with the all pervading GOD/SELF.It is totally against Gurmat philosophy that the self, the soul is God himself. Our soul as stated in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is something created and fashioned by God, Vaheguroo, the line of Gurbani you quoted shows that God merges his devotees with himself. I don't see how this proves that Sikhs are Hindus, just because Hindus also want to merge with God.



It resonates with Taittriya Upanishad : "From where the words turn back"

(Chapter IX.1). Kena Upanishad, " The eye doesn't go there, nor speech, nor mind". Well do you know of any religion's scriptures that claim to fully comprehend or describe God? You cannot call the understanding that God is beyond understanding a uniquely Vedic concept.



This is certainly about the three Gunas which Lord Krishna talks about in Gita : The Sattva Guna, the Rajas Guna & the Tamas Guna.You see, this is the beauty of Gurmat, that it is a philosophy which can help any person of any religion. There is no doubt that this line is to help someone who has learnt of the gunas and is trying to escape them, Guru Maharaj is here saying that, look, I can help you. Same way Gurbani is catered to people of all different spiritual paths, helping them with whatever problems they have come to understand from their own religious traditions. With verses more towards Muslims, Guru Ji will talk to Muslims on their own level, talking about concepts they are familiar with, to Hindus the same, to yogis also, etc. etc.


It is Conciousness - birthless, motionless & non-material, as well as tranquil & non-dual - which has semblence of birth, apears to move & simulates a substance ( possessed of attributes). -- (Mandukya Upanishad, IV.45)Actually, there is a slight difference between the two verses here. I can elaborate if need be. Regardless, one or two similarities does not mean Guru Ji copied anything from anywhere, all religions are united in various ways through various similarities.



"This birthless SELF becomes differentiated verily through Maya & it does so in no other way than this. "" This world when ascertained from the standpoint of its essential nature, doen't exist in its own right. Nor do phenomenal things as diiferent or non-different". --- Mandukya Upanishad As stated above, Gurmat does not teach that the Self is God, this is a major difference between Gurmat and Vedic thought.



Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh!


Namaskar,
Most of the sikhs I know and grew up with justify eating meat by relating to a story of Guru Gobind Singh.

It is said that Guru Gobind was in a fight with Moguls and took shelter in a forest with his sainiks. There they stayed for many days without food and water. When they couldn't find any plants to survive on, Guru reluctantly gave orders to his group to hunt an animal and eat. Thus it is justified by many sikhs that Guru Gobind singh allowed eating meat even if you have taken the 'Amrit'.

Also, since sikhism was born as a fighting force against islam and sikhs are 'fighters' it is assumed that eating meat is allowed to enhance the kshatriya qualities. Some kshatriya also justify eating meat with this logic i.e. to fight against an enemy they need to enhance their non-spiritual instincts and eating meat does that.

However, I don't know of any sikhs (or kshatriya for that matter) in India that actually eat beef. Cows are even more sacred to the sikhs than to Hindus since a cow is a kisan's roji roti.

Meat eating is strictly forbidden for Sikhs, especially Amritdhari Khalsa as it is one of the four Bajjar Kurehits- four major breaches of the sikh code of conduct, which result in one becoming a 'patit', one who has become a non-Sikh, and requires taking Amrit once more to be accepted back into the Khalsa.
Also, Sikhism was not 'born as a fighting force against islam', Sikhism is a religious path to God, and was given to the world so that they can find God, one of the principles of Sikhism however is to fight tyranny, opression and wrong doing. Sikhs have no enmity against any particular religion.

Singh Khalsa
27 October 2008, 06:15 AM
Can someone please help me out with the formatting of the above post? I do not understand what has happened.

PrimeDirectives
09 March 2009, 05:25 PM
Sikh scholar Sardar Gulab Singh in lecture at the Guru Ka Bagh in Amritsar declares that, "Sikh faith is the true Sanatan Dharma. The four Vedas are also the four religious books of the Sikhs"
(Oberoi, P. 102 The Construction of Religious Boundaries).

Kumar_Das
06 June 2010, 12:55 PM
Well do you know of any religion's scriptures that claim to fully comprehend or describe God?

Semitic religions.:coffee: