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RamaRaksha
12 July 2008, 12:11 AM
I have read on some blogs that Hinduism doesn't really teach that there is a Hell. Triloka mentions heaven but not Hell, which I think is significant. I believe that the concept of Hell came from outside Hinduism. As I have posted before, Abrahamic faiths teach a form of faith where God behaves like an autocrat and we are his subjects or slaves. You better do as he says or he will punish you in hell! God is a torturer! God is Saddam Husain or a Hitler! What a revolting image!

Hinduism has never taught fear of God. What is there to fear of my Rama? My Rama will never hurt anyone. But this is where the concept of Rebirth and Karma comes in. For christians who do not believe in rebirth, they need a Hell, but for Hindus, Hell becomes redundant. Besides we already know that a Parent or teacher does not punish nor Judge. God is our parent, she wants to teach the way to Moksha by becoming better humans. Would a parent torture her own child? Each life gives us an opportunity to learn. If we had done evil things in a past life, in this life, we get the opportunity to learn the evil of our past ways. It is very important to realize that this is not a punishment, you learn nothing from punishment and pain. Sending criminals to Jail accomplishes nothing, they become even worse criminals.

There was a news story recently that here in one American jail the inmates were exposed to the Buddhist Vipassana Yoga. There was a dramatic change in their outlook and behaviour, they became less violent, more peaceful. Unfortunately the christian church stepped in and stopped the yoga practice because it was un-christian! These people will stoop so low, it's so disgusting.

And this is what God will do, she will teach us to become better people and learn the error of our ways by her teachings, not by beatings and punishments!

sarabhanga
12 July 2008, 03:43 AM
Namaste Ramaraksha,

Hindu dharma is NOT without a concept of Hell, although I am not sure what kind of “other world” you might be imagining as the christian imagining of the dark earthy place where things suffer and die repeated deaths until they pass the acid test of yama ~ i.e. bhUloka or mRtyuloka, the world of yama and the vAjAs, ruled by the vajra of ugra (the terrible bolt of the formidable/wrathful/mighty god rudra).

vaidika brAhmaNa dharma teaches a form of faith where the will of yama is inviolable, and the inhabitants of mRtyuloka must obey, or risk being sent down (once again) to suffer life in another mortal incarnation.

In Hindu dharma, the jIva learns by repeated lives (and thus by repeated deaths), until advaitam is truly known.

It is wise to follow the restraints of yama, without which moksha (liberation from rebirth, and thus from subsequent deaths) is impossible.

vcindiana
12 July 2008, 07:09 AM
I hope I am not derailing this thread.
In my personal conviction that God is Love only, I find it difficult to think of and find it hard to believe dualities of Heaven and hell. I think these exist in both “religious” Christianity and Hinduism (and others as well) only as interpreted by most people. Perhaps these are included in the scriptures with good intention to keep people in trac otherwise this world would be chaotic with no moral codes. But if we start to define God in terms of law or dharma or justice it becomes more of human understanding and thinking. I do not find this concept is wrong but it does limit the “unfathomable” love of God.

I find your statement.. …vaidika brAhmaNa dharma teaches a form of faith where the will of yama is inviolable, and the inhabitants of mRtyuloka must obey, or risk being sent down (once again) to suffer life in another mortal incarnation…. ….again nothing wrong, but still a human understanding.

Sarabanga: please explain to me: You stated “In Hindu dharma, the jIva learns by repeated lives (and thus by repeated deaths), until advaitam is truly known” My question to you is how good a learning is good enough to know the advaitam ( I understand you mean Moksa or salvation).

Love, always VC

sarabhanga
12 July 2008, 07:55 AM
Namaste VC,

Return to mRtyuloka (reincarnation) is determined by the conviction of dvaitam, while eternal liberation from mRtyuloka (moksha) is determined by the conviction of advaitam. And the judgment is surely made by yama.

Do you consider that yama is a human fiction, simply a moral code to keep society in order, unconnected with divine love?

The significance of yama has been explained many times, especially with regard to “love”.



I find your statement …
vaidika brAhmaNa dharma teaches a form of faith where the will of yama is inviolable, and the inhabitants of mRtyuloka must obey, or risk being sent down (once again) to suffer life in another mortal incarnation
… again nothing wrong, but still a human understanding.

This is simply a statement of reincarnation.



My question to you is how good a learning is good enough to know the advaitam.

The experience of advaitam should be lesson enough, but without yama the yoga is impossible. And then (taken to heart and sustained beyond death) moksha should be guaranteed. But only yama makes the final judgment ~ when you meet him, you will know. ;)

TGW
27 July 2008, 05:41 AM
Hi,

My first post in this forum, which does look very interesting. :)

Hell is a concept which is not there in Hinduism IMO, mainly because we believe in the concept of rebirth, where reward and suffering for our past actions will be taken care of. The life which we will get due to our own karma will I feel, make a Heaven or a Hell for ourselves.

But a Hell as the Christian Books say, I don't think so.

RamaRaksha
05 August 2008, 09:34 PM
VCI & TGW: I keep saying the same thing, look for God in your heart, not in a book.

Hell originated with Primitive man, when primitive man first heard thunder and lightning he thought "god" must be angry with him. Sure enough, fire and destruction followed. To this day, primitive faiths teach this fear of God. From fear of God came this concept of hell, where "god" will torture people, please this is a human concept.

I ask Sarabhanga, who is your IshtaDaivam? Mine is Rama, for the life of me, I cannot accept my Rama torturing anyone, however bad he may be. Please see that this is a human concept, that's what we do with criminals here on earth, because that is all we can do. Lock them up, throw them in jail and hope they get better, but they get worse not better.

How can you think God will stoop to such dirty methods as torturing people? God a Saddam Husain? Is this what you think of God? Don't you think she has better methods than this? With one thought she can make a person like Hitler someone who would never hurt a fly, or come to think of it, vice versa. With one thought she can make you forget everything that you ever knew in your life. Don't you think that she can use better methods than torture?

To understand this better, we must realize the difference between our view of God and the Abrahamic one. They view God as a King or Master, making them subjects, servants or slaves. We view God as a parent or teacher. They fear God, they use words like Sin, punishment, judgement & commands. All these words are associated with a master or king. A king will punish, he will torture even good people, if he thinks they are against him.

We are not them, does a mother torture her own child? Besides with karma and rebirth, Hell is unnecessary. We are reborn to learn God's lessons anew. Please do not talk of punishment in a new life. A parent does not punish, a teacher does not intend to hurt his students, he wants you to learn.

The Abrahamic faiths do not teach karma or rebirth, they are stuck with Hell, they are stuck with a Saddam Husain!

ScottMalaysia
06 August 2008, 11:17 AM
Actually, there is a Hell in Hinduism. It is called naraka, and the Garuda Purana describes the sins that will result in one's being taken to naraka after death. Maybe that's where Hitler and Saddam Hussein went after they died, or maybe not. We have no way of knowing. However, naraka is not eternal, like the hell of Christianity and Islam - those in naraka will eventually get out and back onto the spiritual path.

n the Malay language, which borrows a lot of its vocabulary from Sanskrit, the word for 'hell' is neraka. So Hinduism does have a concept of Hell.

RamaRaksha
10 August 2008, 03:48 PM
Scott: This is not about what is in a book, believe me I do realise that some Hindu sastras do speak of Naraka.

Please think of the point I am trying to get across, if you believe in naraka, are you not saying that there is God who hurts people? The example of Hitler or Saddam Husain does not apply to us, they are not Hindus.

I repeat that our view of God differs from the Abrahamic one - we view God as a parent or teacher, they view him as a King or Master. A master will torture his subjects or slaves, hence words like Fear of God, sin, punishment, judgement, commandments etc. Notice that these words do not show up in Hinduism.

A hindu should never be taught to fear God, the thought of God should always bring a smile to your face.

A student repeatedly asks his teacher about something he does not understand. The teacher that loses patience and beats the student is not a teacher, he is a master. Basically you are saying that is what God is doing when you talk of Naraka.

A real teacher will take the time to explain the lesson with patience and understanding. Ultimately even the teacher can only do so much, the rest is upto the student. This is where karma and rebirth come in. Instead of torturing us, Hinduism teaches us that we are born again and again, each new life giving us a different experience as we learn the lessons of God.

In this life I remained single, maybe in my past life I had 10 kids, in the next maybe I will be an atheist, in the next a gay person, the hunted in one, the hunter in the next.

Sudarshan
11 August 2008, 03:06 AM
We cannot really speculate on the nature of God - we have to know from what the knowers of God say or its equivalent through scriptures.

The hell is really out there. We cannot wish it away by arguments like God is a parent etc. If God were such a parent as you imagine then even in this world there would be happiness all around. How do you explain so much misery that we face? So why cant a hell exist as well?

In reality, the truth about all this world is not what we see. God's purpose is very different from any human understanding. God has no intentions to hurt, test or punish anyone like most missionary religions like us to believe. In reality, there is no misery out here except for those who have not understood the truth. Vedanta declares that the world is a manifestation of brahman so how can there be any sorrow here? We need to come out of individual way of thinking and expand our knowledge to universality. In that universal perspective the real auspicious nature of the world is well understood. As long as one continues to have the short sighted individual knowledge and does not expand into the collective knowledge of God, the hell really exists for you and you msy have to suffer there if you indulge in inhuman acts.

yajvan
11 August 2008, 12:52 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Sudarshan writes

How do you explain so much misery that we face?

simple - by the actions we choose.


pranams

Sudarshan
12 August 2008, 03:49 PM
If a christian tells you that you will go to hell, please ask him this question.

"Does your God know already whether I will go to hell or heaven?"

Analyze the following situations.

1. If God knows I will go to hell anyway, then ask him what purpose it serves you by converting to christianity.

2. If God knows I will go to heaven, then why not continue as a Hindu?

3. If God does not know the answer and is waiting for your actions, then ask him to ditch his concept of God which is not omniscient.

Anyway we look at it, God being all knowing, knows the past, present and future and there isn't anyone going to hell or heaven by his own effort.

To whoever makes sarcastic remarks at people of other faiths, please do not pass judgement on the fate of others and make your own God look stupid. God is much more capable than what you think - if he so wishes samsAra will cease for all this instant. Let us try to understand this divine mind first before gagging him with our self formed opinions of God.( and making him look like a Hitler just for the sake of pushing our idealogy on others)

RamaRaksha
17 August 2008, 08:33 PM
Sudarshan: What they are saying is that by becoming a christian, you get automatic entry into heaven. To me it's a sickening concept, they have reduced God to a common proselytizer, only interested in furthering "his" religion. Gandhi is sent to hell, while a pedophile gets into this "heaven". I will run away screaming from this kind of heaven.

My usual response is to ask what about muslims, catholics & mormons? They also say that they alone are allowed into heaven, lol. So who is right? Everybody is wrong, and you are the only one who is right?

To me the most powerful response would be to say that our God is not a torturer. Hell is a man-made concept, because that is what we would do to a bad man, put him in jail, hurt him as much as we can. It is sad to see that we transfer these thoughts to God. We should realize that God would have better methods than using a cattle prod or boiling oil. Rama or Krishna using a cattle prod on a human, it's just not right.

With just one thought, God can turn a Hitler into the nicest, kindest man you will ever meet. Why would God need these stupid human methods?
Besides many of the bad people that we know have had a horrible childhood. For example Mike Tyson, read his upbringing. The guy grew up in the streets without a family to speak of. People don't realize how important a stable loving family is to a child growing up.

I say to a christian, "I am sorry my faith does not allow me to say you are going to hell, all good people, including atheists are welcome in my Rama's heaven. Besides, we don't have hell, God is not a torturer. He can use better methods than a cattle prod or boiling oil. He alllows us Hindus to be reborn to relearn the lessons of life".

devotee
17 August 2008, 09:42 PM
Namaste,

The idea of hell is not foreign to Hinduism. As Scott has mentioned, it is called, "Naraka". And there are many Narakas & have various names too, like, "Kumbhipaak Narak" etc. It has been mentioned not only in some Puranas but in Bhagwad Gita too ... "Utsannakuldharmanam ...." (BG 1.44), "AAsurim yonimapanna ...." (BG 16.20).

Yet there is a difference between the Abrahmic concept of hell & Hindu concept of hell. In Abrahamic religions, a sinner is sent to hell for eternity. There is no second chance as there is no idea of re-birth there. Whereas in Hinduism, he suffers for some time in hell & then comes back to take birth again.

OM

Sudarshan
18 August 2008, 02:18 AM
RR,

There are seven major kinds of hells described in the hindu literature. Even Brahmasutras, one of the prasthAna granthas refers to it.

api cha sapta ( 3.1.15)

So you cannot dismiss it as a purANic concept.

Also see BG 16.19 & 16.20 where the Lord warns with dire consequences for the haters of God and humanity.

Of these seven hells, five are temporary - Raurava, Maharaurava, Vahni, Vaitarani and Kumbhika. The last two are described to be eternal - Tamisra (darkness) and Andhatamisra (blinding darkness).


I dont know how you interpret the 'eternal hell' of Hinduism but every school of vedanta except the school of Sri MadhvAchAya ( tattvavAda) interpret it as a long hell transit.( and not as eternal)

The concept of eternal hell exists in Hinduism but I think it is more an arthavAda for bringing some sort of discipline in the world. Moreover, the word eternity has no meaning from the absolute standpoint because time is not absolutely real.


Those who commit grave sins inevitably go to hell after death. There is no bypassing this by arguing that God is a father. If you consider God your father then rise to the level of his son and dont make excuses! Those who continue to indulge in God hating and full of hate for others will have to go to hell for indefinite periods of time. ( may not be eternal)

Ohduss
24 August 2008, 10:55 AM
I totally agree with RamaRaksha. Although I am not as informed and knowledgeable on the subject, I cannot imagine my Goddess torturing or harming me in any way. She is there to protect me and guide me. She is one with me and I am one with her. Yes I may have to return and try again to obtain Moksha, but Hell? No way.

jaya_narayana
24 August 2008, 03:46 PM
namaste,

i think it's important to realize that hell is not God punishing you. in the abrahamic religions it is but not in dharma. hell is the result of your own actions. you created the karma to end up in hell. you'll go there learn the lesson then rebirth somewhere else. it is not though, god taking some sort of divine enjoyment in your suffering.

if you want to look at god as your parent, consider this metaphor. your mother tells you over and over again as a small child not to touch the hot stove. you don't listen to her and you get burnt. your mom didn't cause and she certainly does not take joy in it. eventually though the burn heals and you know not to touch the hot stove.

Jai Sri Krishna!

RamaRaksha
24 August 2008, 06:44 PM
Ohduss: My thoughts exactly. That is the point I want to get across. A God who tortures and punishes is a human thought, that is what we do to criminals on earth and so we are simply imagining the same with God. It shows clearly that they have no idea of God.

Hinduism has a better way, it is called Karma. We learn the lessons of God by being born again and again in different life forms. In this life I am a Hindu, a devotee of Rama, in my next life, who knows I might be an atheist, in the next a dog, so that I may learn to love unconditionally.

Abrahamic faiths have no choice, they are stuck with a God who tortures because christians are not reborn. A Hitler would be sent to hell to be tortured, whereas a hindu "hitler" would be reborn and learn God's lessons anew. This is a better way.

We see this better way in our daily life also. Most criminals were not born bad people, life made them that way. In some jails, they are giving criminals dogs to take care of. Criminals who take care of dogs, are changing their ways they are becoming less violent! In som jails it seems they are teaching Yoga! It helps to calm the mind and they become better people.

RamaRaksha
24 August 2008, 06:55 PM
Jaya Narayana: Your math is not adding up. You say that Karma follows us to the next birth but then you go to hell? If for the errors of this life, I am being hurt in hell, why is it in the next life, I am paying for the errors of the previous life again? Aren't you being punished twice?

I don't disagree that there are religious texts that talk about naraka. But these are just the imaginings of people living some time ago. This is what they imagined would happen to people and so they wrote it down. It's not like they actually went to naraka and saw this happening! It makes a man happy to think that that bad man will go to hell and suffer for what he is doing.

But we need to evolve and grow beyond the old ideas and texts, I am not saying they are bad but it is time we gave up the idea of a God who hurts people. Don't you think God has a better way? With one thought he can make you a Hitler or a Gandhi! Why would God need a naraka?

When I was a kid, one of my teachers got exasperated because we couldn't understand the point he was making, he got so angry, he took his cane and beat everyone of us. I am in my 50's now but I still remember it and still hate that man. That is not a teacher, that is a master, a king. A master who rules by orders and threats.

A teacher is one who tirelessly goes over the text again and again until you get it, and that is what karma and rebirth are. This is the better way! In this life, I am a Hindu, in my next I might be an atheist, in the next a dog! Each life gives me a new perspective, a new outlook. Our goal is Moksha, to become an enlighted person, that is not acheived thru torture and pain!

jaya_narayana
24 August 2008, 07:26 PM
Namaste Rama,

i'm not quite sure what you mean about being punished twice. the way i understand it is going to hell= being reborn in hell. so if you kill people in this life (for example) the karma from such actions may not catch you in this life. if they don't they can cause you to go to hell for a period of time. once that karma is repaid you are reborn somewhere else and no longer accountable for the karma that landed you in hell. this is my very limited understanding anyway.

as for your story of the teacher. it is not god punishing us for not doing has he/she says. it is directly the results of the choices we make.

Jai Sri Krishna!

Ohduss
25 August 2008, 09:30 AM
namaste jaya narayana

"hell is the result of your own actions. you created the karma to end up in hell. you'll go there learn the lesson then rebirth somewhere else."

I was under the impression that resolving karma would lead us to moksha and that we resolved our karma here on earth. If we did not resolve our karma in this physical lifetime we would be reborn to continue and hopefully edge somewhat closer to moksha.

I am a new Hindu and may not completely understand but that is partially why I am here. What is the Hindu concept of hell? Is it the fire and brimstone as taught in the Abrahamic religions, or a holding place or what?

Thank you,
Ohduss

Atman
25 August 2008, 10:45 AM
I was told Hell is right here on Earth- especially when you commit sexual sin.

Sudarshan
30 August 2008, 04:23 PM
Jaya Narayana: Your math is not adding up. You say that Karma follows us to the next birth but then you go to hell? If for the errors of this life, I am being hurt in hell, why is it in the next life, I am paying for the errors of the previous life again? Aren't you being punished twice?

I don't disagree that there are religious texts that talk about naraka. But these are just the imaginings of people living some time ago. This is what they imagined would happen to people and so they wrote it down. It's not like they actually went to naraka and saw this happening! It makes a man happy to think that that bad man will go to hell and suffer for what he is doing.


In that case both heaven and moksha could be mere imaginations of people.It's not like they actually went to moksha or heaven and saw this happening! It makes a man happy to think that that good man will go to heaven and enjoy for what he is doing.

I have just rephrased what you said. I think you forgot that the people who imagined these hell and heaven were rishis and if you think they are imaginations then you perhaps dont believe in the religeous texts at all? That is ok, but why call it Hinduism if it a mere opinion ( without any basis)



But we need to evolve and grow beyond the old ideas and texts, I am not saying they are bad but it is time we gave up the idea of a God who hurts people. Don't you think God has a better way? With one thought he can make you a Hitler or a Gandhi! Why would God need a naraka?


If you want to imagine all the beliefs, I dont know why you call these views as Hinduism. It was scripture that told you that there is a God and the same scripture should teach you what is reality.

If you have a private channel with God them please ask him why created the hells. Also dont forget to ask him why lots of people are dying of hunger, disease, accidemts etc - certainly God had a better way right? I dont see any difference between the tortures of samsAra and any special hell.





When I was a kid, one of my teachers got exasperated because we couldn't understand the point he was making, he got so angry, he took his cane and beat everyone of us. I am in my 50's now but I still remember it and still hate that man. That is not a teacher, that is a master, a king. A master who rules by orders and threats.

A teacher is one who tirelessly goes over the text again and again until you get it, and that is what karma and rebirth are. This is the better way! In this life, I am a Hindu, in my next I might be an atheist, in the next a dog! Each life gives me a new perspective, a new outlook. Our goal is Moksha, to become an enlighted person, that is not acheived thru torture and pain!

In that case God could have created a much better world without any pain or torture right now! There were much better ways to create this world than we see now.

You knew about the word moksha from the scripture , found it exciting and believed it. And the next page of the scripure told you about naraka and it was disappointing and you disbelieved it! Tell me why should we believe in God or moksha if we reject the very scripture that talked about these?

Truth is not what any one believes or want it to be. It is what it is. If you accept the authority of the vedas, then you have to accept whole. Believing in parts and throwing the rest do not yield a consistant belief.

TatTvamAsi
31 August 2008, 06:17 PM
Namaste,

Sudarshan has put it quite succinctly.

Hindu scriptures were not musings by old, bored men; they are the result of insights into the nature of reality by various rishis/sages at various times in ancient India. Hell/Heaven are not considered to be 'physical' places as in jails etc. They are considered states of existence. The law of karma simply states that the more egregious one's actions are, the more egregious the results; call it Hell or Bell, it doesn't matter.

Devotee also made an important distinction that in the Abrahamic faiths, Heaven & Hell are thought of as permanent abodes; eternal. In Hinduism, they are temporary. Through many 'births' or experiences in either place, one has to return to bhUloka (earth) to continue in this arduous journey of samsArA.

It's quite mathematical actually: the more brownie points you score on earth, the more pUnyA you accumulate and your ecstatic experience in "heaven", and time spent there, is commensurate to your "good" deeds/actions on earth. Likewise, the more 'bad' deeds you do, the longer you spend in hell-like states (narakAs) before you are cast back into the physical realm of the earth.

It is quite obvious that the Abrahamics stole almost all of the concepts seen in their religions from Sanatana Dharma. Clear examples are Noah's Ark etc. Abrahamic faiths are bhakti marga for the "people" in the ME. And that spread like a virus around the world.

Subham.

Atman
01 September 2008, 04:40 AM
Namaste,

Sudarshan has put it quite succinctly.

It's quite mathematical actually: the more brownie points you score on earth, the more pUnyA you accumulate and your ecstatic experience in "heaven", and time spent there, is commensurate to your "good" deeds/actions on earth. Likewise, the more 'bad' deeds you do, the longer you spend in hell-like states (narakAs) before you are cast back into the physical realm of the earth.

Subham.

Yes this is right- I must also stress the need for purity- contol of mind and sexual desire, this will save you from naraka, as well as giving you good quality of life on earth and in your next life.
Naraka also exists on the physical plane- and I believe I am coming out of it now with gradual prayers/meditation and efforts at celibacy. Then again, if you really want to get technical and analyse deeply, we could say even heaven(s) would also be equal to 'naraka,' compared to Paramdham or sri Vaikuntham.