why iskon followers dont like lord shiva

[shangopriest]

hi im a devotee of lord shiva , but also worship other deities like ganesha , amba ji , durga and lord krishna , but when i talk about lord shiva with iskon members they seem not to like him very much just saying that he is a mere semi god .... any comments on this ?

[satay]

namaste,
You will probably get a good response of this question if you post at an iskcon forum. There are several on the net. I can point out some if you would like.

[Harjas Kaur]

deleted

[atanu]

Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, also seems to describe Mahesh/Shiva Ji as a demi-god. --
Impermanence is attributed to all the devas because they are part of the sarguna. Ek Omkar.

Namaste Harjas Ji,
You are correct. Yet, Saivas know that it is insulting to Lord Shiva to not consider Him Shivam. I wish to point out a couple of facts. First, the Omkar is indeed called Shiva in Sanatan Dharma scripture. Second, Lord Shiva -- the being in Kailasa and Varanasi (between the eye brows above the nose) -- is said to be the direct manifestation of Shivam here.

So, the form of worshippable Shiva may vary but the Shivam that Lord Shiva really is, is the unchangeable good reality. Same with Vishnu and Devi. Lord Krishna indeed says: Those know who know me as the unborn mahesvara.

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

This subject tends to come up once every 6 months or so, which is fine. For those that adore Śrī Devī, Śiva, Śrī Rām, Śrī Lakṣmī ,Śrī Viṣṇu,Pārvatī, Yamarāja, and Kṛṣṇa, this is all good.

Yet what if we asked Kṛṣṇa about Śiva i.e. Maheswara ? This occurs in the Mahabharata , Anusadana Parva, Section CLXI (or section 161).


Vasudeva (Kṛṣṇa) said, 'O mighty-armed Yudhishthira, listen to me as I recite to thee the many names of Rudra as also the high blessedness of that high-souled one.

The Rishi-s describe Mahadeva as Agni, and Sthanu, and Maheswara as one-eyed, and three-eyed, of universal form, and Siva or highly auspicious. Brahmanas conversant with the Vedas say that that god has two forms.

One of these is terrible, and the other mild and auspicious. Those two forms again, are subdivided into many forms.
That form which is fierce and terrible is regarded as identical with Agni and Lightning and Surya. The other form which is mild and auspicious is identical with Righteousness and water and Chandramas.
Then, again, it is said that half his body is fire and half is Soma (or the moon). That form of his which is mild and auspicious is said to be engaged in the practice of the Brahmacharya vow. The other form of his which is supremely terrible is engaged in all operations of destruction in the universe.
Because he is great (Mahat) and the Supreme Lord of all (Iswara), therefore he is called Maheswara. And since he burns and oppresses, is keen and fierce, and endued with great energy, and is engaged in eating flesh and blood and marrow, he is said to be Rudra.
Since he is the foremost of all the deities, and since his dominion and acquisitions are very extensive, and since he protects the extensive universe, therefore he is called Mahadeva.
Since he is of the form or colour of smoke, therefore he is called Dhurjati.
Since by all his acts he performs sacrifices for all and seeks the good of every creature, therefore he is called Siva or the auspicious one. Staying above (in the sky) he burns the lives of all creatures and is, besides, fixed in a particular route from which he does not deviate.
His emblem, again, is fixed and immovable for all time. He is, for these reasons, called Sthanu.
He is also of multiform aspect. He is present, past, and future. He is mobile and immobile. For this he is called Vahurupa (of multiform aspect).
The deities called Viswedevas reside in his body. He is, for this, called Viswarupa (or universal form). He is thousand-eyed; or, he is myriad-eyed; or, he has eyes on all sides and on every part of his body, His energy issues through his eyes.
There is no end of his eyes ( i.e. He is everywhere). Since he always nourishes all creatures and sports also with them, and since he is their lord or master, therefore he is called Pasupati(the lord of all creatures).
Since his emblem is always observant of the vow of Brahmacharya, all the worlds worship it accordingly. This act of worship is said to gratify him highly.
If there is one who worship him by creating his image, another who worships his emblem, the latter it is that attains to great prosperity for ever. The Rishis, the deities, the Gandharvas, and the Apsaras, worship that emblem of his which is ever erect and upraised [ i.e. siva-lingam ]. If his emblem (mark or lingam) is worshipped, Maheswara becomes highly gratified with the worshipper.
Affectionate towards his devotees, he bestows happiness upon them with a cheerful soul. This great god loves to reside in crematoria and there he burns and consumes all corpses. Those persons that perform sacrifices on such grounds attain at the end to those regions which have been set apart for heroes. Employed in his legitimate function, it is he That is regarded as the Death that resides in the bodies of all creatures.
He is, again, those breaths called Prana and Apana in the bodies of all embodied beings. He has many blazing and terrible forms. All those forms are worshipped in the world and are known to Brahmanas possessed of knowledge. Amongst the gods he has many names all of which are fraught with grave import. Verily, the meanings of those names are derived from either his greatness or vastness, or his feats, or his conduct.
The Brahmanas always recite the excellent Sata-rudriya in his honour, that occurs in the Vedas as also that which has been composed by Vyasa. Verily, the Brahmanas and Rishis call him the eldest of all beings. He is the first of all the deities, and it was from his mouth that he created Agni. That righteous-souled deity, ever willing to grant protection to all, never gives up his suppliants. He would much rather abandon his own life-breaths and incur all possible afflictions himself.
Long life, health and freedom from disease, affluence, wealth, diverse kinds of pleasures and enjoyments, are conferred by him, and it is he also who snatches them away. The lordship and affluence that one sees in Sakra [Śakra = ‘powerful’, another name for Indra] and the other deities are, verily his. It is he who is always engaged in all that is good and evil in the three worlds. In consequence of his fullest control over all objects of enjoyment he is called Iswara (the Supreme Lord or Master). Since, again, he is the master of the vast universe, he is called Maheswara. The whole universe is pervaded by Him in diverse forms. It is that deity whose mouth roars and burns the waters of the sea in the form of the huge mare's head!


ॐनमःिशवाय

pranams

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~




For those that adore Śrī Devī, Śiva, Śrī Rām, Śrī Lakṣmī ,Śrī Viṣṇu,Pārvatī, Yamarāja, and Kṛṣṇa, this is all good.


Namaste

With the names we give to the one we may adore, in the final analysis this Being, Reality, is uccāra-rahitam vastu.

uccāra उच्चार - pronunciation or utterance
rahitam or rahita रहित - separated or free from, deprived or void or destitute of
vastu वस्तु - any really existing or abiding substance or essence ; subject , subject-matter , contents That (tad) Reality (bhuma, anuttara) is devoid or deprived of being defined by our utterance
That Reality (Parā) is deprived of (our) pronunciation
That Reality (Brahman) is without words to describe It
That Reality (pūrṇatā or wholeness) leaves one speechless
That Reality (samasta or pervading the whole) is indescribable


... yet we as humans yern to define its Greatness. As one word drops from our mouths on this Reality we have limited It; When the wise are asked to define this Reality they remain quiet, as silence is the closest to the thought and vibration of this Perfection.


ॐनमःिशवाय

pranams

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste

With the names we give to the one we may adore, in the final analysis this Being, Reality, is uccāra-rahitam vastu.

uccāra उच्चार - pronunciation or utterance
rahitam or rahita रहित - separated or free from, deprived or void or destitute of
vastu वस्तु - any really existing or abiding substance or essence ; subject , subject-matter , contents That (tad) Reality (bhuma, anuttara) is devoid or deprived of being defined by our utterance
That Reality (Parā) is deprived of (our) pronunciation
That Reality (Brahman) is without words to describe It
That Reality (pūrṇatā or wholeness) leaves one speechless
That Reality (samasta or pervading the whole) is indescribable


... yet we as humans yern to define its Greatness. As one word drops from our mouths on this Reality we have limited It; When the wise are asked to define this Reality they remain quiet, as silence is the closest to the thought and vibration of this Perfection.


ॐनमःिशवाय

pranams

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

Applaud for two excellent posts. The question "why iskcon followers dont like lord shiva", is akin to "why no ego likes any other ego" and these questions and aversions dissolve in sleep (and in meditation).

Om

[Srikantha]

I will answer this in a simpler way:

Gaudiya Vaishnavism I think is derived largely from the philosophical system of Madhvacharya; at this point I will say, I can be wrong.

These are all paramparas derived from Darshanas or philosophical systems. Within Madhvacharya's purna prajna system, the only being that is impermanent is Hari. No one else is akin to Hari and all other atma are of a lower order.

Two arguements are here, one that the Devata Shiva is lower realtive to Hari due to his impernance, and second that SHiva, when seen as the Ultimate being, inevitably refers to Hari. In the latter context Shiva becomes an adjective of Hari, denoting his auspiciousness.

I dont think in this day and age anyone should waste their time arguging on the validity of medievil philosophical systems, which largely seem to have a political impression behind them than a spiritual one.

You can see the whole warefare in context in the Sarvadarshana Sangraha.

[paarsurrey]

Hi

In my opinion there are no demigods or semigods. It would be just like saying semi-humans or demi-humans. A human being if born normally and without defects would be a complete human being; otherwise it would be abnormal human being with defects.

All imprints or signatures/principles on things created point towards only one Creator- GodAllahParmesherYHWH, the Creator of Heavens and Earth. It there would have been many gods/semigods/demigods; then the things created must have shown no principles or different principles of creation. Human phsyche the world over is the same. One becomes happy on the birth of a child whether one is in America, Asia, Australia or Europe and one would be sorrowful on the death of a loved one in whatever country one lives.

We can safely conclude from the above that all human beings are creatures of the same GodAllahParmesherYHWH.



The same principles governing this universe tell us loudly, in my opinion, that there are no demi or semigods; only One -GodAllahParmesherYHWH.

If there would have been no principles/laws prevalent in this Universe; there would have been no scientific progress or inventions possible.

This is what I believe with reason; others could believe otherwise out of free will but not with blindfaith, if they have any sound/rational reason/arguments they are weclome to present them.

Thanks

[Yogkriya]

Namaste Yajvan Ji,
Applaud for two excellent posts. The question "why iskcon followers dont like lord shiva", is akin to "why no ego likes any other ego" and these questions and aversions dissolve in sleep (and in meditation).
Om

Why Iskcon followers don't like Lord Shiva and his devotees?
Here's an example of Shiva bashing by Madhavananda dasa and consequent replies by Shaiva devotees. I wrote as "Chhenu"
You are welcome to comment too. :)

http://gopalkeerty.wordpress.com/2008/03/07/the-actual-secret-of-lord-siva-mayavada-advaita-sankhya/#comment-190

[atanu]

Why Iskcon followers don't like Lord Shiva and his devotees?
Here's an example of Shiva bashing by Madhavananda dasa and consequent replies by Shaiva devotees. I wrote as "Chhenu"
You are welcome to comment too. :)

http://gopalkeerty.wordpress.com/2008/03/07/the-actual-secret-of-lord-siva-mayavada-advaita-sankhya/#comment-190


Dear Yogi,

I have a much better post to recommend to you. See whether you like it or not? Do not miss to check the linked picture.

Lord Shiva's Love for Baby Krishna - Prema Rasa Madira

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hindu-sadhanas/264631-lord-shivas-love-baby-krishna-prema-rasa-madira.html


Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Dear Yogi,

I have a much better post to recommend to you. See whether you like it or not? Do not miss to check the linked picture.

Lord Shiva's Love for Baby Krishna - Prema Rasa Madira

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hindu-sadhanas/264631-lord-shivas-love-baby-krishna-prema-rasa-madira.html

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste yogi,

Shanakarcharya taught that Brahman is where Shiva Vishnu unite. It has to happen in us and nowhere else.




"dwaar ek jogi 'alakh' pukaar,

chandra bhaala, gala munDa maala-bhala, sashi ganga jala dhaar,
ripu ananga, prati anga bhujangani, ranga shubhra balihaar,

naam shambhu, aru Thaamva bataavata, giri kailaas mamjhaar,
ghar te nikri, mahari yashumati ati, poochati kari satkaar,

"sunahu amangala-bhesha! bhaye mama, mangala maya sukumaar,
yaa te jo chaahahu so maangahu, manina motiyana thaar",

jogi kaha, "maiyaa! mai jogi, mohim na chaahiya samsaar,
ihai bheekh de maaya! kripa kari, lakhaum laala ek baar",

maiyaa kaha, "mama laala Daraigo, jogi! tohim nihaar",
"sunu maiyaa! yaha laala tihaari saguna-brahma-avataar",

"tuma to jogi! 'alakh, alakh' kaha, puni kimi 'lakha' karataar",
"maiyaa 'alakha' na kahyau, kahyau haum, 'aa lakha nandakumaar',"

lyaayim laala, yashumati bhori, hari-hara-driga bhaye chaar,
lakhi 'kripaalu' yehi madhura-milan kaham, koTi praana davum vaar!"

Lord Krishna's holy birth is being celebrated in Gokula Vrindavan with
great joy and grandeur. Mother Yashoda is overwhelmed by ecstatic
maternal love for her darling child.

A gopi maiden brings the news that there is a strange looking 'Yogi'
called 'Shambhu' waiting at the entrance door of their courtyard,
loudly chanting with delight, "alakh!", "alakh!" - (meaning-
'O Formless Absolute Brahman! O God imperceptible to eyes!)

The messenger gopi gives some more details of this supreme Yogi to
Mother Yashoda.

"The Yogi is brilliant white in color, with crescent moon decorating
his forehead, matted locks of his hair drenched in Ganga waters, his

neck adorned with a garland of skulls and his limbs are embraced by
poisonous snakes. His abode is Mount Kailas and he is the enemy of
Cupid, god of beauty and mundane love."

Mother Yashoda is very happy to receive the unique Yogi Maharaj and
serves him with great respect and hospitality. She encourages him to
ask for whatever treasure he would like to have as alms, and insists
him to recieve as much gold, precious diamonds and pearls as he
pleases because of the auspicious occasion of her child's birthday
festivities.

But Shankar Bhagavan being totally detached from the material world
replies that he is a renounced mendicant and worldly riches and gifts
are of neither use nor value to him. He simply begs for the alms of
the blessed vision of her precious divine child, Sri Krishna.

But mother Yashoda becomes very disturbed with this request and
worried about the consequences.

She says to Lord Shiva that her infant Son, Krishna is at very tender
age and delicate. Fearing that He would be scared to death to see the
inauspicious, terrible form of Yogi Maharaj as described above, she
tries to avoid showing her darling baby boy.

But Lord Shiva, understanding her hesitation, assures that her new
born Child is NO ordinary Son but the incarnation of Supreme
Personality of God Himself and full of transcendental attributes!

Of course naive Yashoda who is blinded by divine love does not believe
Lord Shiva and moreover she doubts his very own words.

The reluctant mother clevery reminds Shiva,

"Yogiraj Shambhu Shankar! Until now You have been meditating upon the
impersonal Brahman and chanting the sacred syllables 'alakh!' 'alakh!'
(O Formless Absolute Brahman! O God imperceptible to eyes!)

How is that you have realized that my cute, little Baby is the Divine
incarnation of Bhagavan?

Please do not try to confuse me with your words."

Then wise Shankar tricks mother Yashoda saying that he has been
proclaiming loudly the word "aa lakh!" "aa lakh!" and not "alakh!"

("Aa lakh" means - "come on, have a look!")

He adds that since the same Absolute Brahman Whom Yogis and Jnanis
realize as Formless and Attributeless has descended on earth appearing
in His Supreme Personal form of Lord Krishna and performing blissful
lilas of Divine Love with His intimate devotees, he has been shouting
all along inviting everyone to 'COME and HAVE A LOOK' at the Blessed
Lord, the Personified Brahman!!

After listening to the high praises of her son by Yogi Raj and
believing in the good fortune of her precious child, innocent mother
Yashoda humbly brings Baby Krishna and shows Him to Lord Shiva.

Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva fondly look at each other with deep
familiarity of Their close eternal relationship, both of Them being
lost in the divine rapture of rendezvous!

In the concluding verse, the Rasik saint-poet exclaims- "I would
sacrifice thousands of my lives just to have one glimpse of the
overwhelming spiritual ecstasy of my Lordships, "Hari and Hara"
absorbed in Their Divine Union!"

[Yogkriya]

Dear Yogi,

I have a much better post to recommend to you. See whether you like it or not? Do not miss to check the linked picture.

Lord Shiva's Love for Baby Krishna - Prema Rasa Madira

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hindu-sadhanas/264631-lord-shivas-love-baby-krishna-prema-rasa-madira.html

Om Namah Shivaya

Jai Bhole Nath ki!!

Atmiye Atanu,

"The Yogi is brilliant white in color,"

- Yes brilliant white in color, but not in the picture. So the pictured inspired the story?

"with crescent moon decorating his forehead,"

- Does the writer actually mean Lord Shiva came wandering upto the house in the village with a real crescent moon balanced on his head? Amazing!

"matted locks of his hair drenched in Ganga waters,"

- And the author knew that the water that was dripping was of Ganges too..!

"his neck adorned with a garland of skulls and his limbs are embraced by
poisonous snakes."

- I hope to see a Picture of Shri Maheshwara with mund-mala around his neck.

"His abode is Mount Kailas and he is the enemy of
Cupid, god of beauty and mundane love."

- "Enemy" of "Cupid"?? Kamdev? Anang? So he finally grants Kamdev (his enemy supposedly) to Krishna as his son..!
But yes of course, Shiva is not perturbed by any kama, just as he is above and beyond any gunas or maya. And talking about the personal aspect Shankar, Kamdev/Anang was one of the invitees from his side in his marriage procession too ;-)

"Fearing that He would be scared to death to see the INAUSPICIOUS, terrible form of Yogi Maharaj as described above, she tries to avoid showing her darling baby boy."

- Inauspicious?? Bhagvan Ashitosh??
The whole thing is written by someone who is least aware that Shiv pooja was the traditional worship in Nand gram. Nand baba, Yashoda, gopis and most people did worship Lord Shiva and I think there still is a Shiv temple where Nand baba used to offer his prayers to Lord Shiva.

"Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva fondly look at each other with deep
familiarity of Their close eternal relationship, both of Them being
lost in the divine rapture of rendezvous!"

- Wonderful!! :)

"In the concluding verse, the Rasik saint-poet exclaims- "I would
sacrifice thousands of my lives just to have one glimpse of the
overwhelming spiritual ecstasy of my Lordships, "Hari and Hara"
absorbed in Their Divine Union!"

Who wouldn't? :)

HariHaraya Namah!

[atanu]

Hi Yogikriya,

Below is a bengali song composed in Ahir bhairav by a Muslim poet. Getting to know this song was a key event for me. I am giving approximate free flowing bengali and approximate english translation.




Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
Nirabe eshe daraile heshe
Prokhor tejo taba neharite nari
Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari

Rash bilasini ami ahirini
Shyamal kishore rupa shudhu chini
Ambare heri aj eki jyoti poonja
Hey girijapati kotha giridhari

Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari

Shambar shambar mahima taba
Hey brajesh bharaiv ami brajabala
Shambar shambar mahima taba
Hey brajesh bharaiv ami brajabala

Hey shiv sundar bagchala parihar
Dharo natabar bhesh paro nip mala
Naba megh chandane dakhi anga jyoti – jyoti
Priyo hoye dekha dayo trishuldhari
Parvati nohi ami ami srimati
Dishan feliya ho basuri dhari

Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
Nirabe eshe daraile eshe
Prokhor tejo taba neharite nari
Arunkanti kego jogi bhikhari
-------

Refulgent as the Sun who this ascetic mendicant
Silently smiling standing at the door?
Fierce the refulgence, my eyes are averted.

O, Shiva sundara, I am rasa enjoyer Ahirini.
I know the young dark one only.
In the sky I behold what mass of brilliance?
O, Girijapati, where is Giridhari?

Refulgent as the Sun who is this ascetic mendicant
Silently smiling standing at the door?


Unlimited is your splendour, O, Brajesh Bharaiva.
I am Brajabala. O, shiv sundar,
Remove the tiger skin adornment
Take up Natabar dress. Wear the garland.
Cover yourself up with new clouds
Come to me as my lover, O, Trishuldhari
Parvati I am not. I am Srimati.
Drop the Dishan, Take up the flute O, sundar shiva.

Refulgent as Sun who is this ascetic mendicant
Silently smiling standing at the door?


The song came up in the following thread:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=630&highlight=nazrul

[Yogkriya]

Namaste yogi,

Shanakarcharya taught that Brahman is where Shiva Vishnu unite. It has to happen in us and nowhere else.

Namaste Atanu ji!

Yes of course that is the Yogic aspect. Just as the union of Shiv and Shakti has to take place within the sadhak.

But the Vaishnava aspect as propounded by Hare Krishnas and one that was given in the story is personal bhakti aspect as seen by them.

Going on Govardhan parikarma with some friends (actually I had to accompany them) from Russia, my Russian local guide and good friend starts preaching about the universe and planets. I tell him that it all is within yourself, if you realize, activate. Matter of chaitanyata, jagriti. To which he looks at me with disbelief and an irony. :)

Namaskar!

[Yogkriya]

Hi Yogikriya,

Below is a bengali song composed in Ahir bhairavi by a Muslim poet. Getting to know this song was a key event for me. I am giving approximate free flowing bengali and approximate english translation.

The song came up in the following thread:

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=630&highlight=nazrul

How lovely (rejoicing) !!!
Lord Krishna also describes HIM as the Sun in the ashram of the great rishi Upamanyu!! :)
The muslim Bengali saintly poet is so near!!

Jai Shiv Shankar Omkara!!

[atanu]

Jai Bhole Nath ki!!

Atmiye Atanu,

"The Yogi is brilliant white in color,"

- Yes brilliant white in color, but not in the picture. So the pictured inspired the story?

"with crescent moon decorating his forehead,"

- Does the writer actually mean Lord Shiva came wandering upto the house in the village with a real crescent moon balanced on his head? Amazing!

"matted locks of his hair drenched in Ganga waters,"

- And the author knew that the water that was dripping was of Ganges too..!

"his neck adorned with a garland of skulls and his limbs are embraced by
poisonous snakes."

- I hope to see a Picture of Shri Maheshwara with mund-mala around his neck.

"His abode is Mount Kailas and he is the enemy of
Cupid, god of beauty and mundane love."

- "Enemy" of "Cupid"?? Kamdev? Anang? So he finally grants Kamdev (his enemy supposedly) to Krishna as his son..!
But yes of course, Shiva is not perturbed by any kama, just as he is above and beyond any gunas or maya. And talking about the personal aspect Shankar, Kamdev/Anang was one of the invitees from his side in his marriage procession too ;-)

"Fearing that He would be scared to death to see the INAUSPICIOUS, terrible form of Yogi Maharaj as described above, she tries to avoid showing her darling baby boy."

- Inauspicious?? Bhagvan Ashitosh??
The whole thing is written by someone who is least aware that Shiv pooja was the traditional worship in Nand gram. Nand baba, Yashoda, gopis and most people did worship Lord Shiva and I think there still is a Shiv temple where Nand baba used to offer his prayers to Lord Shiva.

"Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva fondly look at each other with deep
familiarity of Their close eternal relationship, both of Them being
lost in the divine rapture of rendezvous!"

- Wonderful!! :)

"In the concluding verse, the Rasik saint-poet exclaims- "I would
sacrifice thousands of my lives just to have one glimpse of the
overwhelming spiritual ecstasy of my Lordships, "Hari and Hara"
absorbed in Their Divine Union!"

Who wouldn't? :)

HariHaraya Namah!


Namaste Yogikriya,

Shiva is whatever one makes Him, but He is eternally and beyond time:That which is without letters (parts), the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual.

Krishna/Christ/Buddha are His forms only that arambhavAdis mistake as the ultimate. But Krishna/Christ/Buddha are here to lead these asuric minds through arambhavAda to less hardened hearts.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Yogkriya]

Namaste Yogikriya,

Shiva is whatever one makes Him, but He is eternally and beyond time:That which is without letters (parts), the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual.

Krishna/Christ/Buddha are His forms only that arambhavAdis mistake as the ultimate. But Krishna/Christ/Buddha are here to lead these asuric minds through arambhavAda to less hardened hearts.

Om Namah Shivaya

Namaskar Atanu!

"ARAMBHAVADI" ?? That's the countering term of "MAYAVADI"? :D
Good! I"m sure the Hare Krishnas didn't hear of this as yet!

I pray to Lord Sadashiva who is ever in the heart of Shri Hari!

Namah Shivaya!

YogKriya.

[atanu]

Namaskar Atanu!

"ARAMBHAVADI" ?? That's the countering term of "MAYAVADI"? :D
YogKriya.

Namaste Yogikriya,

No No. If you investigate the tattva, you will find the tAratamya. ArmabhavAdi term does not imply fools, rascals and cheaters. Whereas mayavAdis are fools, less intelligent, cheaters and rascals. See the tAratamya?:)

Om

[mithya]

Iskconites, like most Vaishnavs, believe that Vishnu alone is supreme, and other gods are inferior. They don't believe all gods are one, they do believe in distinctions. In mayavada, we believe that everything is ultimately one, and therefore we discard distinctions such as Krishna, Shiva etc. These entities don't really exist in the absolute sense, the formless alone is real. But vaishnavs don't believe in this, which is why they try to 'grade' deities. It's all a matter of perspective, nothing to get offended about.

[atanu]

In mayavada, we believe that everything is ultimately one, and therefore we discard distinctions such as Krishna, Shiva etc. ---It's all a matter of perspective, nothing to get offended about.

Namaste Mithya,

You may be a mayavadin.

But, I really do not know any other mayavadin who believes that "In mayavada, we believe that everything is ultimately one,------------". Is there any evidence? mayavada can be of two types. In one category, it is believed that Atman is mAya. In another category, it is believed that mAya is real and that innumerable souls are eternal. Which category you belong to?

advaitavAda is well known as advaitavAda and there is no reason for us to term it as mAyavAda, unless there is some other reason for doing so persistently. Even when the accepted advaitin's view on the term mAyAvAda was shown to you in another post and it was also shown that the term mayavada is used only by Gaudiyas or vaisnavas of particular sect, your persistence in calling yourself an advaitin and a mayavadin is perplexing (especially when you also assert that Brahman is matter, without providing any definition).

Om

[mithya]

Namaste Mithya,

You may be a mayavadin.

But, I really do not know any other mayavadin who believes that "In mayavada, we believe that everything is ultimately one,------------". Is there any evidence? mayavada can be of two types. In one category, it is believed that Atman is mAya. In another category, it is believed that mAya is real and that innumerable souls are eternal. Which category you belong to?

Neither. We believe what Sankara said: Brahman satya, Jagat Mithya.


advaitavAda is well known as advaitavAda and there is no reason for us to term it as mAyavAda, unless there is some other reason for doing so persistently.

No traditional 'advaitin' ever called himself advaitin. It's a name modern neo-vedantins have given them. Besides, mayavada seems more appropriate, because Sankara himself has said: Jagat Mithya. So those who proclaim the world's illusoriness are mayavadins. Krishna talks about maya in the gita, so again mayavada seems more suitable than advaita which could mean many things to many people. The concept of maya, on other hand, is unique to Sankara's philosophy. Advaita is a word even dvaitins use to describe their idea of Brahman, in fact, most vaishnavas do. So the word has no meaning that's peculiar to Sankara's philosophy. Mayavada, however, is.

[atanu]

Neither. We believe what Sankara said: Brahman satya, Jagat Mithya.
No traditional 'advaitin' ever called himself advaitin. It's a name modern neo-vedantins have given them. Besides, mayavada seems more appropriate, because Sankara himself has said: Jagat Mithya. So those who proclaim the world's illusoriness are mayavadins. Krishna talks about maya in the gita, so again mayavada seems more suitable than advaita which could mean many things to many people. The concept of maya, on other hand, is unique to Sankara's philosophy. Advaita is a word even dvaitins use to describe their idea of Brahman, in fact, most vaishnavas do. So the word has no meaning that's peculiar to Sankara's philosophy. Mayavada, however, is.


Namaste mithya,

I can only say that your forum name is very appropriate. Or your understanding of Advaita is very half baked (which is indicated from your posts). Or, your faith is not what you want us to believe.

First, have you ever seen any advaita propounder teach or write "The fundamentals of mayavada philosophy?" Have you ever seen any advaita teacher teach "mAyAvAda"?

Second, you will only see mAyAvAda term used by Gaudiyas or ISCONITES, who are actually mAyavAdins, since they proclaim that mAyA is real and millions of souls are eternal, in opposition to the teachings of Sanatana Dharma. Even their headquarter is located in mAyApuri, very appropriately.:D

Shankara did not merely say "Jagat mithya". This is what mayavadins claim that Shankara taught, while Shankara taught more.

If you wish to call yourself mayavadin do so gleefully. But do not assert time and again that advaitavAda is actually mAyaVAda.


Om

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Atanu ji




Second, you will only see mAyAvAda term used by Gaudiyas or ISCONITES, who are actually mAyavAdins, since they proclaim that mAyA is real and millions of souls are eternal, in opposition to the teachings of Sanatana Dharma. Even their headquarter is located in mAyApuri, very appropriately.:D
Om

Thank you this brought a smile to me in what is otherwise a dull and miserable day here in London.

to add my two penny worth, in my tiny understanding, mayavadi is one who dwells in maya, since all sincere spiritualists, are seeking to overcome maya, the term mayavadi does not suit anyone.
It is without a doubt a term used by Isconites to disrespect the followers.

Jai Shree Krishna

[atanu]

Pranam Atanu ji

Thank you this brought a smile to me in what is otherwise a dull and miserable day here in London.

to add my two penny worth, in my tiny understanding, mayavadi is one who dwells in maya, since all sincere spiritualists, are seeking to overcome maya, the term mayavadi does not suit anyone.
It is without a doubt a term used by Isconites to disrespect the followers.

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaskar Ganeshprasad ji,

Thank you.

Don't we now see validity, from Shri mithya's post on consciousness, that mAyApuri is appropriate headquarter of mAyAvAdins?:)

Om

[18ramkumar]

hi im a devotee of lord shiva , but also worship other deities like ganesha , amba ji , durga and lord krishna , but when i talk about lord shiva with iskon members they seem not to like him very much just saying that he is a mere semi god .... any comments on this ?

All roads lead to him, so don't worry about the comments of ISKON people , see it as Institute for Shiva and Krishna Consciousness.

[bhargavsai]

Hello, Mr Mithya....

It is Advaita not Mayavada. We get offended you calling that. Please take care of your words, they might hurt others.

[Harjas Kaur]

There is the difference between Brahma and Parabrahm, Shiva and Sadashiva/Maheshvara, Vishnu and Mahavishnu, Maya and Maha Maya.

What are these differences? Philosophically some are referring to elements or aspects of a Divine continuity. And at other times these are philosophically referring to the whole which is called by many names and understood as multiple aspects or qualities or forms.

On one level of understanding Vishnu IS Shiva and there is no difference. But on another level, sometimes calling as Parabrahm or Vishnu/Krishna Bhagavan for ultimate and referring to Shiv Ji as part of the three gunas, limited in sansaara.

That is my take on it because Sikh Guru Granth Sahib also speaks of Mahesh in Vaishnavaite terminology, as demi-god who is limited. Then in another place it says the name of the Parabrahm is Shiva. So we have to accept the teaching that the Supreme is both niragun-sagun, and therefore within limits and without limits. And this is the reason for huge misunderstanding in sampradayas and panths today...

basically because we the sadhaks don't have Brahmgyan to see the underlying unity and respectfully adore the One of countless Naams and the many methods by which to reach the All-pervading Mata-Pita.

[atanu]

That is my take on it because Sikh Guru Granth Sahib also speaks of Mahesh in Vaishnavaite terminology, as demi-god who is limited. Then in another place it says the name of the Parabrahm is Shiva. So we have to accept the teaching that the Supreme is both niragun-sagun, and therefore within limits and without limits. And this is the reason for huge misunderstanding in sampradayas and panths today...



Namaste harjas ji,

You are correct. Param Atman, Param Brahman is Shiva- the Good. There is shruti proof for that. Mahesh on the other hand, is Shiva employing himself in a role of Lord. Similarly, Shiva is without a second but when He sees the universe then He pervades.

Else what is there to pervade for the Param Brahman?

Om Namah Shivaya

[ranjeetmore]

it is not that gaudiyas do not like Sri Shankara.That is nonsense and only what some pple want to belive.

Sri Shankara and Sri devi have a very high position in Gaudiya sampradaya.Iskonites do not represent the pure teachings of Chaitanya(not fully that is.).

doesn't mean you talk any nonsense about them being mayavadis.

We hold a firm view that the doctrine of Gaurangadeva is the most accurate revelation of the vedic knowledge.

As for Shankara's doctrine,I wish you luck with it.

Please do not comment anything which appeals to your biased mind.Please think,resource and then think again and then make allegations.

ty.

[ranjeetmore]

Namaste harjas ji,

You are correct. Param Atman, Param Brahman is Shiva- the Good. There is shruti proof for that. Mahesh on the other hand, is Shiva employing himself in a role of Lord. Similarly, Shiva is without a second but when He sees the universe then He pervades.

Else what is there to pervade for the Param Brahman?

Om Namah Shivaya

shiva is God,no doubt,but He is not some formless substance that appeals to your intellect.

He is Pure White in color,Supremely beautiful.He has 5 heads and 10 arms.He has an actual solid dhama called Sadashivloka,situated in Pravyoma and He is accepted in the bhagavatam to be a personality of Godhead.

And the most imp. thing : Jeevatma is NOT SHIVA.

[SANT]

shiva is God,no doubt,but He is not some formless substance that appeals to your intellect.

If that is true then what is the significance of shiva ling.
Doesnt shiv ling represent lord sada shiv?

[Shaan]

Well I have no info about ISKCON practices neither have seen any of their temples or discources, But this is somewhat like a goswami tulsidas bhakti, tulsidas ji was too deep in shri ram bhakti, that he had debate with soordas who was a krishna bhakt, tulsidas ji told him, so what krishna is a form of vishnu too which ram is also, But I wont do namaskar to krishna unless he comes in a pitambar wearing a bow and archer. So this can be the case in ISKCON bhakti too. They are too deep in krishna bhakti possibly.

Other instance of deep bhakti is in sri ganesh puran, which tells what deep bhakti is, there was a bhakt of sri ganesh called nemaa he was too deep in ganesh bhaktiyog and always in ganesh chintan that he developed a soond like ganesh ji, his face started looking like sri ganesh, so real bhaktiyog means we have to be a replica of the deity we are in deep love with, our characteristics and features get developed same like the deity if we really do bhaktiyog.

[atanu]

Well I have no info about ISKCON practices neither have seen any of their temples or discources, But this is somewhat like a goswami tulsidas bhakti, tulsidas ji was too deep in shri ram bhakti, that he had debate with soordas who was a krishna bhakt, tulsidas ji told him, so what krishna is a form of vishnu too which ram is also, But I wont do namaskar to krishna unless he comes in a pitambar wearing a bow and archer. So this can be the case in ISKCON bhakti too. They are too deep in krishna bhakti possibly.

Other instance of deep bhakti is in sri ganesh puran, which tells what deep bhakti is, there was a bhakt of sri ganesh called nemaa he was too deep in ganesh bhaktiyog and always in ganesh chintan that he developed a soond like ganesh ji, his face started looking like sri ganesh, so real bhaktiyog means we have to be a replica of the deity we are in deep love with, our characteristics and features get developed same like the deity if we really do bhaktiyog.

Namaste shaan

An excellent post. Not sure whether the sentence highlighted with blue fonts holds true or not, especially in relation to bhakti of surdas or of tulsidas?:) But Thanks. Shaan's post is valuable for me for an understanding of some teachings of Gita.

Om Namah Shivaya