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yajvan
26 August 2008, 02:34 PM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste,

The last words that Arjuna voices to Kṛṣṇa in the Bhāgavad gītā ( Chapt. 18 , 73rd śloka) is naṣṭo mohaḥ or destroyed is my confusion, (some use the word delusion, or bewilderment) smṛtiḥ labdhā - (my) memory is regained.

The śloka can mean:

Kṛṣṇa I am no longer confused ; my doubts ( about the real challenges in life) are dispelled; I now know what my dharma and duty is to be and what I need to do on this battlefield; -or-
Kṛṣṇa I am no longer confused about my course of action in this life; I will pursue this yoga you have taught me; -or-
Kṛṣṇa I am no longer confused and this mohaḥ has been completely destroyed, I remember who I really am, this fulless, Bhuma, Brahman.Do you have a point of view on this? What do you think Arjuna's comprehension contained ? We know that he fought on the field of Kuruṣetra after this conversation. Yet what was Arjuna's orientation or accomplishment with the discourse with Acyuta¹ .


pranams

words used

naṣṭo from naṣ नश्- to destroy or extinguish; also means to reach, attain, meet with, find
moha मोह- bewilderment, perplexity, distraction, infatuation, delusion; darkness or delusion of mind (preventing the discernment of truth and leading men to believe in the reality of worldly objects)
smṛti - स्मृति- remembrance, reminiscence; memory
labdhā लब्ध- taken, seized, caught, met with, found ; obtained
acyuta अच्युत - imperishable, permanent ( Kṛṣṇa)
hari oṁ हरिॐ

sm78
27 August 2008, 04:38 AM
Do you have a point of view on this? What do you think Arjuna's comprehension contained ? We know that he fought on the field of Kuruṣetra after this conversation. Yet what was Arjuna's orientation or accomplishment with the discourse with Acyuta¹ .

acyuta also means: firm , solid, one who never falters (in his actions, duties). In mahabharat like the other epic the focus is primarily on dharma and the confusion many characters has about what it really constitutes. Arjuna was no exception, but he falters only occationally, aleibit it was an important occation.

After the conversation, he was able to dispose the necessary duty which required him to stand beyond all the weaknesses of human character and human ideologies (some like ahimsha might be quite difficult to negotiate). That by itself is a great attainment, I am sure not too people are capable of.

I am not sure about Arjuna's comprehension after all was over, but I am also not sure if it matters as well.

I am 30 now, and perhaves half way through my life. Whether I had vision yesterday or have a vision tommorow or a grand knowledge of self some years later hardly matters to anybody. I'll die and my so called my knowledge & ignorance dies with me. But society does not die, and the greatest satisfaction will come if I know at death bed that all duties have been done justly, rightly and to the best of my abilities. That I have not allowed my infatuations (with money, fame, knowledge, peace) to come in the way of what I was required to do.

Arjuna certainly did his part well. Vedic dharma stands the foundation of doing one's duty or dharma. Each varnaashrama has its own set duties well defined, common ground being good of the world and destruction of evil. It dispassionately performing them without personal infatuations qualifies one for moksha. As I said, I don't believe moksha can be an object of living, it is merely the fruit of life well lived.

I know I deviate quite a bit from medivial and present understanding of hinduism.

yajvan
28 August 2008, 10:46 AM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~



The last words that Arjuna voices to Kṛṣṇa in the Bhāgavad gītā ( Chapt. 18 , 73rd śloka) is naṣṭo mohaḥ or destroyed is my confusion, (some use the word delusion, or bewilderment) smṛtiḥ labdhā - (my) memory is regained.

The śloka can mean:

Kṛṣṇa I am no longer confused ; my doubts ( about the real challenges in life) are dispelled; I now know what my dharma and duty is to be and what I need to do on this battlefield; -or-
Kṛṣṇa I am no longer confused about my course of action in this life; I will pursue this yoga you have taught me; -or-
Kṛṣṇa I am no longer confused and this mohaḥ has been completely destroyed, I remember who I really am, this fulless, Bhuma, Brahman.Do you have a point of view on this?

Namaste

I thought I would comment. If the Bhāgavad gītā was a śastra on to itself, not part of a bigger epic ( the Mahābhārata ) I would read Arjuna's words as final.
That is, not only does he know what his plan of action will be on the battlefield but he also knows what needs to be done to become skilled in action, comprehensive of the wisdom of Brahman and no doubt that of worship and adoring the Divine.
That is, I would have taken his words to indicate not only do I clearly see what my dharma is, I have also realized the essence of who I really am, my SELF, ātman is now firmly established in my awareness, I have attained this yoga you have instructed me in.

Kṛṣṇa's skill as the ultimate teacher ( jagadguru) covered 3 main areas for Arjuna's teaching and consideration: Karma kanda ( section on action), Jñāna kanda ( section on knowledge or wisdom of Brahman) and Upasana kanda ( section on worship). Many call the Bhāgavad gītā the cream of the Veda. That the essence of the Veda-s can be found within its 700 verses. It is due to Kṛṣṇa's review of these sections in a succent yet comprehensive manner.

As mentioned the Bhāgavad gītā is part of the Bhīṣma Parva section of the Mahābhārata. This is found in Volume II of the 4 volume set of the Mahābhārata. I mention this because if we fast forward to the 4th Volume we will find a main section called Aśvamedhá Parva. Inside of that there is a sub-parva named Aṇugīta¹ Parva. Now I have dragged you all the way from the Bhāgavad gītā in Volume II to sub-parva found in Volume IV, why so?

The war is over, the kingdom is restored to its proper owners, and Arjuna is spending time with Kṛṣṇa, all is right with the world. Arjuna says the following to Kṛṣṇa: O'Mighty armed one, your greatness became known to me upon the approach of battle (at Kuruṣetra). Your form as the Lord of the Universe became known to me. Yet what you said ( what you taught) at that time has all been forgotten by me in consequence of the fickleness of my mind. Repeatedly I have been curious on the subject of those truths ( you offered).

Kṛṣṇa replies ( I give an abbreviated version) - I imparted the truths that are eternal; the recollection of all that I told you does not come to me now. It is impossible for me to repeat it in detail.

Yet we know Kṛṣṇa is magnanimous, he says to Arjuna, I shall now however recite to you a history of the same topic - listen to every thing I say with an understanding adapted to my teaching ( that is you know my style of instruction from our last discourse) you must succeed in attaining to the highest end ( from this instruction).

From here Kṛṣṇa begins the instruction through parables and saṁketa. This is a different approach then that of the Bhāgavad gītā . I will leave this to your reading. From this Aṇugīta Parva we can come to some conclusions on Arjuna's first teaching, and also make some inferences about the human mind. We can revist this at a latter post.

pranams

words used

kanda कन्दa lump , swelling i.e. used as a collection or section or division of a book.
jagad-guru - jagat जगत्is universal + guru.
Aṇugīta - aṇu अणुis minute; some use this word to identify the individual + gīta गीतas we know means song, sining or chant.
saṁketa संकेत - hints, symbols, signs.
hari oṁ हरिॐ

Sudarshan
30 August 2008, 04:02 PM
Arjuna is a devatA and is an incarnation of Indra. Arjuna being a devatA is an aparoxa jnAni. Even such devatAs occasionally take human birth along with the Lord whenever dharma is to be establiished from time to time.

During such times, bhagavAn is always born without a shred of ajnAna. But jnAnins/devatAs do not enjoy such a privilege and do not remember the truth all the time. They are influenced by their prArabda karma which causes aparoxa tirodana.

Arjuna by default is a jnAni - being a devatA. But under the circumstances imposed by the times, he has forgotten his real eternal nature and is instead caught in a web of delusion, caught between duty and compassion. After the gItOpadesha and after seeing the great cosmic form of the Lord, Arjuna's devatva is restored fully. Arjuna has regained his memory of himself as Indra, the king of devatAs.

This is why he says that his confusion is gone and all his delusion detsroyed.

The memory that Arjuna regained is nothing but the knowledge that he is Indra who is currently in a human body for the sake of the welfare of the world.

yajvan
30 August 2008, 04:50 PM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~



But under the circumstances imposed by the times, he has forgotten his real eternal nature and is instead caught in a web of delusion, caught between duty and compassion.

Namaste Sudarshan,
a good post indeed...

he has forgotten his real eternal nature just as we have, and why Arjuna is considered Nara.


Arjunabhigamana Parva- Mahābhārata
Kṛṣṇa speaks to Arjuna 'O thou irrepressible one, thou art Nara and I am Narayana or Hari! We are the Rishis Nara and Narayana born in the world of men for a special purpose. O Partha, thou art from me and I am from thee! O bull of the Bharata race, no one can understand the difference that is between us!'


pranams

sm78
04 September 2008, 04:39 AM
Arjuna is a devatA and is an incarnation of Indra.

Arjuna is a son of Indra, as Yudhisthira was son of Dharma, Bhima of Vayu, as Kunti recieved each child from the corresponding devatas. (All of this might be a custom in those days of not to pronounce the illegitimacy of their births, but then it might not be.)

I don't recall in mahabharata saying, Arjuna was an incarnation of Indra.

He did meet Indra face to face while in vanavasa.

Neither I remember Arjuna saying that his memory as Indra is restored after hearing gita.

Devata's being aparoxa jnani's by default, is another matter altogether.

There might be pauranic (bhagavatam??) or other sources of your extrapolations, pls enlighten me on this.

Geeta starts with Arjuna despodency and his confusion regarding his duties and ends with he being freed from this confusion (by way self-knowledge) and carrying out his duty to his best.

Story of Pandavas,Krshna and Duryodhana is not just a story of few Gods born as men and settling their business for our mere entertainment. It must have other values for man in executing his duties and make the correct choice between dharma and adharma.

yajvan
04 September 2008, 12:49 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste sudarshan (et.al)
Now that a few have taken interest here can you point out the Parva and śloka that suggests the following:

After the gItOpadesha and after seeing the great cosmic form of the Lord, Arjuna's devatva is restored fully. Arjuna has regained his memory of himself as Indra, the king of devatAs.

If this is so, then the following does not make sense:

the sub-parva named Aṇugīta Parva. The war is over, the kingdom is restored to its proper owners, and Arjuna is spending time with Kṛṣṇa, all is right with the world. Arjuna says the following to Kṛṣṇa: O'Mighty armed one, your greatness became known to me upon the approach of battle (at Kuruṣetra). Your form as the Lord of the Universe became known to me. Yet what you said ( what you taught) at that time has all been forgotten by me in consequence of the fickleness of my mind. Repeatedly I have been curious on the subject of those truths ( you offered).



pranams

yajvan
06 September 2008, 08:31 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Arjuna is a devatA and is an incarnation of Indra. Arjuna being a devatA is an aparoxa jnAni. Even such devatAs occasionally take human birth along with the Lord whenever dharma is to be establiished from time to time.

After the gItOpadesha and after seeing the great cosmic form of the Lord, Arjuna's devatva is restored fully. Arjuna has regained his memory of himself as Indra, the king of devatAs.



Namaste Sudarshan,

I ask (again) for myself and those interested in this post... Please advise where one can find your view of the information you offer above i.e. please be so kind as to point out the references in the Bhāgavad gītā, Mahābhārata or another śastra that supports your point of view.

If this is your interpretation, your view, that is fine - yet please inform the reader.

That said, I agree with your assessment
he has forgotten his real eternal nature as this is supported by the śastra-s.

We await your response.

pranams

yajvan
07 September 2008, 12:31 PM
Hari Oṁ
~~~~~

Namaste

" It was after a long time that Indra approached King Pandu, and, addressing him said ' I will give you , O King, a son who will be celebrated all over the 3 worlds and who will promote the welfare of the Brahmana-s, kine, and honest men. "
Indra is informing King Pandu of the birth of Arjuna to Kunti.

For those that wish to read of the Pandava's (Pāṇḍavaḥ¹) birth, it can be found in the Mahābhārata, Adi Parva and the sub-parva called Sambhava.

It was the ṛṣi Durvasa who gave Kunti the mantra or formula to call 'anyone among the celestial's (devatā) will approach you and be
obedient to your will, whether they prefer it or not. And princess (Kunti) you will then have offspring by their (celestial) grace.'

According to the Mahābhārata, the 5 son's of Pandu where born one year apart, the first 3 from Kunti:
From Yama¹ or Dharma came Yudiṣṭhira¹, he was also known as Dharmarāj
From Vayu came Bhīmasena or Bhīma ( also known as Vṛkodara¹)
From Indra also known as Śakra¹ or Vāsava came Arjuna¹
Nakula and Sahadeva where born of the Princess Madrī and the Asvin-s where the devatā Princess Madrī called upon to grant her children.pranams

words used
śakra शक्र- strong , powerful , mighty
vāsava वासव- relating or belong to the vasu-s; Indra, chief, king of the vasu-s.
pan पन् - to be worthy of admiration or to admire
Yudiṣṭhira - one who is calm in battle; from yudhi, "in the battle", and sthira, "calm, undisturbed" or he that
is calm in battle
Bhīma भीम - fearful, terrific, formidable, tremendous
Vṛkodara वृकोदर - wolf-bellied, meaning a voracious appetite.
Arjuna अर्जुन- the color of the day; of the dawn
Arjuna: a—"no," rajju—"rope," the symbol of bondage, and na—"no." Although he is free, he thinks he is in bondage.
Bhárata: bha (divine illumination) + rata (engrossed). India; name of Arjuna, or Dhritarashtra.
Nakula नकुल - has multiple implications; for this post I will use it as a physician as it also is considered a color. I would look at it as na+kula, but am advised this is not so. So I have more study for this connection to make sense to me.
Sahadeva सहदेव - with the gods. saha सह means a son of (and also powerful)+ deva देव is heavenly or divine; the gods as the heavenly or shining ones
Durvasa दुर्वस - difficult to surpass
Yama यम - to rein, curb or bridle as Yama supplies restraints self-control forbearance , any great moral rule or duty; Yama also means twin or two
hari oṁ हरिॐ