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itskuttamit
31 August 2008, 09:44 AM
Jai shree Ram,

I think the time has come to protect our religion from the hands of the muslims and christian missioneries.You may be aware of what is happening in orissa now.This is mainly because of the conversions of illitrate tribal populace there who i think dont know wht dharma is,and wht they want is money and food.The christian missioneries have taken this advantage to do the conversations.The only difference in the policies of christians and muslims for conversion is that the muslims use power for conversions while the christians use intelligence and money power for the same.Even the christians had made many changes in the religion which they spread among the masses in india to make it suit to them,like they include bhajjans,prathanas of jesus etc etc.This will happen in other parts of bharat also where most people are illiterate and hungry.I think we hindus just like these missioneries should take some steps to educate our masses and also to make them understand what hindu dharma is ,and to try something to eradicate the hunger and poverty of those poor masses.I think if from now onwards if we dont take some serious steps time is not far when hindus will become a minority in bharat and it may also happen that our religion will become a lost religion as with the case of sanskrit which itself is a dead language in the place of its origin.

I donot think we will get any support to carry out the work for the protection of our religion from our great government who call themselves secular but infact friends of those muslims and christians and enemies of hindus.So i think we have to work on our own.

So,I think now it is the time for action.Friends i am just a novice in this field i just want your opinions and suggestions on that.If i am wrong on my views please correct me.
Vanda Mataram

TatTvamAsi
31 August 2008, 06:53 PM
Namaste,

Your thoughts are exactly right. Uneducated and disenfranchised Hindus, mostly OBC's & tribals are victimised by the Christian missionaries and the rabid muslim fundamentalists in India. Unfortunately, the government of India (Congress) sides with the enemies of India/Hinduism. That is why it is now Kali Yuga; time when asuras are in power and are targeting innocents.

There could be a dharma yuddha in the near future between Hindus and the mlecchas (christians, muslims, communists, pseudo-secularists etc.) but that is not for us to know. If someone like Sardar Patel, who's shadow seems to fall on Narendra Modi, is elected PM of India, we can see a dedicated effort into curbing the atrocities committed by these pariahs!

Perhaps a concentrated Yagnya is required? Perhaps more unity within the Hindu populace is required? Perhaps, well, we cannot know the outcome. I truly feel the best way to counter these asuras is through control of the media; TV, internet, radio, etc. Once we can start educating people about Hinduism and India, progress can be made.

So, you're right my friend, education is indeed the best way. If it came down to it, every Hindu will become a ParasurAmA and do what is necessary! Perhaps that is the only way to protect our janmA-bhUmI.

Subham.

Harjas Kaur
03 September 2008, 12:00 AM
deleted

saidevo
07 October 2008, 10:19 AM
Here is a good Website that has a wide ranging articles on the activities of the Christian missionaries from the Hindu perspective:
http://www.hvk.org/

saidevo
08 October 2008, 04:50 AM
killing of Swami Lakshmanandaji Saraswati on Aug 23, 2008?

In a recent turn up of events in Orissa, the Maolist leader of Orissa owned up the killing and also admitted that many of his members were Christians. On Monday Oct 6, the Orissa police have arrested two Christians and detained a third in connection with the murder.

Dr.Subramanian Swamy, President of the Janata Party and a visiting Economics professor at Harvard, in his recent press statement on the issue has demanded a CBI inquiry into who contracted the Maoists to kill the Swamy:



The 82-year old venerated Vedantic Hindu sanyasi Swami Lakshmanandaji Saraswati was assassinated on August 23, 2008. While the Maoist leader of Orissa has owned up the killing, the question now is who contracted the Maoists to do so. According to reliable information available with me, the conspiracy to kill the Swamiji was hatched at a meeting held on May 25, 2008 held at the Catholic Abbey at Betikala.


The meeting was held under the chairmanship of Rev. Fr. Prafulla Kumar Sabhapati and convened by General Secretary of the Parish Council, Sri Prafulla Kumar Nayak. The names, signatures and attendance of all members present were recorded (in handwriting) on the Register (extracts in Oriya language at 1) http://www.scribd.com/doc/6425890/ Betikala- Church-Document-0002 )

http://www.scribd. com/doc/6425982/ Betikala- Church-Document- 0001 ) as under:...
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/


For pictures relating to the brutal killing, check:
http://picasaweb.google.com/pravat.chandra/MurderOfSwamiLaxmanandaSaraswati#

Infinite Regress
08 October 2008, 01:26 PM
Here is a good Website that has a wide ranging articles on the activities of the Christian missionaries from the Hindu perspective:
http://www.hvk.org/

Question is: why are these missionaries still in India? Why are they not kicked out, when it's clear that they're creating a lot of problems for the local hindu population? Even the supposedly pro-Hindu BJP did nothing about this, in fact, they invited the pope.

Makes me wonder whether there's more to this than meets the eye.

satay
08 October 2008, 06:44 PM
namaskar,



Question is: why are these missionaries still in India? Why are they not kicked out, when it's clear that they're creating a lot of problems for the local hindu population? Even the supposedly pro-Hindu BJP did nothing about this, in fact, they invited the pope.

Makes me wonder whether there's more to this than meets the eye.

Yes, there is more to this than meets the eye.

Simply, India is a democracy as such anyone is entitled to practice whatever religion they prefer.

The problem is christian missionaries are so ungrateful that they rape the country and culture they live in all the while being hypocrites and crying wolf. Had they done such activities in any mulla country, they would be handed their heads on their hands.

It is only in democractic India that missionaries enjoy such freedom in the East.

atanu
08 October 2008, 10:47 PM
People will be attracted to fairness, beauty and truth above all. What is needed is education, outreach, and also the dasvandh from affected communities to meet the social needs.

When Mother Teresa was alive, she influenced a lot of people to become Christians. But now that Amritanandamayi is doing her work, she's influencing people a hundred times over to be Hindus! I can imagine what the Christians are saying since 1/2 of Amma's chelas are Americans, Canadians and British. I think Divine Mother has everything under control. If we just love people, are kind and show justice it is the way to win people's hearts. -



Namaste Harjas Ji,

You have summed up the issue nicely. People do get attracted by glitter initially (and who has not succumbed to this greed?), but eventually fairness, beauty, love and truth wins. It is the basis of all dharma. The goodness, Shiva-Rudra is never defeated. This is written in Vedas and it is not from me.

Some people who profess to be Moslems, claiming to abide by Islam (which means surrender) take law unto their own hands. Quran does not compel their acts. It is ignorance of duality and the violent Guna mix of these animalistic people that compel them. Similarly, people who profess to be Christians, with their pompous ideas have created societal pressures everywhere and at all times. Most wars have been fought over the need for these so-called Christian populace to expand, propsper and loot others. Whereas these Christian teachers bowed down to Hitler's might while he was powerful, later institution of a Jewish state based on scripture, purported as history* is an example of creating stress and strain in society. After the World Wars, which were examples of Christian greed, the Jewish state has been the biggest tension. Christian missionaries usually are more alluring than the Hindu teachers as the Christians are able to present a clean, propsperous picture. Needy people and as well as the sufferers of Caste perceptions do fall easily to the basic allurements of prosperity and diginity. There is very little of spirituality in these allurements. But is there any thing wrong in it? Similar allurement also steers the brain drain. Why do we not complain when people leave India in search of more money or better living conditions? Why complain only when poor in India turn to Christianity?

On the other hand, we all know that countless westerners do come to Hinduism, seeking the ultimate peace and calm, when all allurements have become like poison. Except a few cases, Hindu Gurus do command voluntary respect, unlike the official respect granted to high Church officials. We must fight the general pompous tendency of the Christian preachers and expose them ruthlessly with truth as the weapon. Their desgins are not spiritual. Preachers cannot be spiritual, as per the highest knowledge of Sanatana Dharma.

Murder of a Hindu Guru is condemnable and so is the happenings of the aftermath. Both are political events and have nothing to do with spirituality. I feel that the post may not go smooothly with the general troubled mood of the time, yet, on Dasahara, we must remember Divine Mother above whom there cannot be any doer or any controller.

Happy Dashami to all friends.

Om

*Sometime back we saw Vedas being treated in similar fashion in this forum.

Infinite Regress
08 October 2008, 11:53 PM
namaskar,




Yes, there is more to this than meets the eye.

Simply, India is a democracy as such anyone is entitled to practice whatever religion they prefer.

The problem is christian missionaries are so ungrateful that they rape the country and culture they live in all the while being hypocrites and crying wolf. Had they done such activities in any mulla country, they would be handed their heads on their hands.

It is only in democractic India that missionaries enjoy such freedom in the East.

You're right about the missionaries. But BJP (which claims to be Hindu Nationalist) did nothing about this, while they were enjoying power for 5 years. They betrayed the Hindu people. So in my view, the problem is not restricted to missionaries alone, but extends to a weak, corrupt Hindu leadership as well. Hindu people deserve better.

TatTvamAsi
09 October 2008, 01:27 AM
Digression is not the best form of discussion.

BJP has never claimed to a "Hindu Nationalist" group. In fact, that term is an oxymoron and frankly a ridiculous label given by anti-Indian and anti-Hindu elements around the world. Hindu fundamentalism doesn't exist. We DON'T want people adopting our traditions; Yoga, meditation, philosophy etc. Instead, missionaries and musLAMES around the world are shoving their cults down the throats of innocent people; especially targeting the uneducated and underprivileged.

The funniest thing is when westerners claim, as they always so arrogantly do, that yoga has "nothing to do with Hinduism" when one is not without the other! The "American Association of Yoga" has the audacity to post such garbage on their website and is trying to misappropriate (again) Hindu traditions while trying to claim yoga/meditation is not Hindu! :rolleyes: Sounds like when a bunch of "Egyptologists" were claiming that the pharaohs were white! haha.. the gall!

Getting back on topic, ;), the BJP has several non-Hindu members, muslims included. In fact, being totally exclusivist is foolhardy and will not succeed in the modern political landscape. As LK Advani stated, being PRO INDIA is more important that being "pro Hindu" because the latter automatically, although erroneously, puts one in the farcical category of 'Hindu fundamentalism'! Being pro-India is in essence being pro-Hindu as Hindus want what is best for their Motherland or janma bhUmI.

Also, BJP's hands were tied when enormous pressure from terrorist supporting nations and leaders (ahem bill clinton ahem) imposed sanctions on India for just testing nukes! It is not a case of failed leadership. At least, it is FAR better to have BJP in power than it is to have this pathetic UPA govt. running the show.

Ideally, India prior to mlecchas (christians, muslims, & other asuras) was heaven! That is why jesus himself went there to learn!

Modi should be PM and someone like Sardar Patel should be in power now, then the mullahs will hide underneath their carpets! :D


You're right about the missionaries. But BJP (which claims to be Hindu Nationalist) did nothing about this, while they were enjoying power for 5 years. They betrayed the Hindu people. So in my view, the problem is not restricted to missionaries alone, but extends to a weak, corrupt Hindu leadership as well. Hindu people deserve better.

satay
09 October 2008, 05:39 PM
namaskar,


But BJP (which claims to be Hindu Nationalist)


That is only missionary propaganda. I have never read anywhere that BJP is Hindu Nationalist.

Please don't spread nonsense and do not derail the thread.

The thread's topic is to discuss 'protection of hinduism from christian and muslim onslaughts'

Thanks,

saidevo
09 October 2008, 11:47 PM
Namaste Atanu.



There is very little of spirituality in these allurements. But is there any thing wrong in it? Similar allurement also steers the brain drain. Why do we not complain when people leave India in search of more money or better living conditions? Why complain only when poor in India turn to Christianity?


I am rather surprised at this comparison, specially your statment on 'complaining' about losing our poor to Christianity.

There is a proverb in Tamil that says, "even crossing the seas, seek wealth." It is true that thousands of our tribal people and other poorest of the poor fall victims to allurement and get converted; it is also true that these people don't care much about spirituality so long as it does not earn their bread; it is further true that the Christian religious presentations are attractive, though the religion itself lacks depth.

But the question is, can we afford to lose our tribes and the poor? Can we allow their ancient culture which is a subset of our Hindu culture to be destroyed in the farcical name of 'civilizing' them? What can happen if we lose these people to Christianity? Won't this be a chain reaction towards the other people? In India, there are more evangelists among the converted than among the imported. The missionary authorities pit these ignorant souls against their own (erstwhile) bretheren.

In the case of brain drain, there is no change of religion, even though the missionary is hectically trying with considerable success in this area too. While the poor convert for bread and butter, these are the people who take their bread with condiments such as jam, cheese, ketchup, meat and vegetables. What is the guarantee that these Hindus won't be attracted by more allurements and ditch their religion? How much strong convictions do they have towards their religion?

Our Hindu society today, in India and abroad, by and large is westernized in lifestyle and outlook at its middle and upper ends and corrupted to Christianity at the lower. The missionaries are most cunning: they let the converted retain their Hindu names in life and their religion on paper so they can enjoy the concessions offered by the government and the census won't reveal their numbers. Many of our political leaders are converted Christians hiding behind their Hindu names and ways. For most of our celebrities, religion is only a showpiece to earn fame, name and money. Most of our people in the middle class are too busy with their day to day living to sincerely and experientially practice their religion. And most of our youth and children hardly care for their religion.

Still when they 'have a situation' (to use the popular American movie police parlance), a perception of threat to their religion, they rise up to the occasion to voice their protest in words and action to counter the threat, as it is happening in Orissa and Karnataka and all over the country when there was a threat to destroy the Rama Sethu.

In any religious society, it is the emotional attachment rather than the spiritual attachment to the religion that motivates people and acts as a force of protection in a threat situation. This emotional attachment is most prevalent among the poor and the middle class who resort to action; it motivates the educated and the affluent like us to voice our protest in every forum and media that gives us an opportunity. And it is this emotional attachment that unites the people across the borders of status and external living. We certainly cannot afford to lose the people who are capable of this emotional attachment to religion that translates into words and action, and has preserved our dharma, culture and society over millenniums.

If we lose the emotional attachment to our religion, which goes in the name of 'bhakti', I think we may not have successful opportunies for practising and realizing our spiritual attachment. While I say this, I also recognize what you have also stated: "We must fight the general pompous tendency of the Christian preachers and expose them ruthlessly with truth as the weapon" and spirituality as the means of action. However, it requires more than spirituality to fight the Christian and Islamic forces of adharma in my opinion.



On the other hand, we all know that countless westerners do come to Hinduism, seeking the ultimate peace and calm, when all allurements have become like poison. Except a few cases, Hindu Gurus do command voluntary respect, unlike the official respect granted to high Church officials.


This is an appreciable situation, but the sad truth is that (I think) that most of these westerners who seek Hinduism are also emotionally attached to their own religion (which in most cases is Christianity). They are not prepared to recognize Christianity as a limited subset of Hinduism; instead they try to seek ways and means to extrapolate the spiritually inadequate teachings of their Bible and identify them with the teachings of our Upanishads, which I see as a subtle form of intellectual evangelism.

Infinite Regress
10 October 2008, 12:11 AM
namaskar,



That is only missionary propaganda. I have never read anywhere that BJP is Hindu Nationalist.

Please don't spread nonsense and do not derail the thread.

The thread's topic is to discuss 'protection of hinduism from christian and muslim onslaughts'

Thanks,

Yes, the thread topic is about protecting Hinduism from C/M onslaughts. My view is, it can only be protected by pro-Hindu politicians. Political solution seems to be the only solution, because people cannot fight the state on their own. They need pro-Hindu leaders to represent them, and fight on their behalf. Which is why I was forced to mention a supposedly pro-hindu BJP betraying the Hindu people.

saidevo
10 October 2008, 01:17 AM
Yes, the thread topic is about protecting Hinduism from C/M onslaughts. My view is, it can only be protected by pro-Hindu politicians. Political solution seems to be the only solution, because people cannot fight the state on their own. They need pro-Hindu leaders to represent them, and fight on their behalf. Which is why I was forced to mention a supposedly pro-hindu BJP betraying the Hindu people.

1. There canot be a totally pro-Hindu political party in India today for reasons that include:

• such a party cannot win the elections with an absolute majority because the Hindus in India are not united in religion to elect a truly Hindu party to have an absolute majority; BJP is currently part of the NDA coalition, and is not yet popular in a majority of Hindu states though it is the largest national party next only to the Congress.

• governments at the centre and in many states is formed by a coalition, which is often a hotchpotch combination of parties that are poles apart in their ideologies, uniting with the single purpose of winning the election and then looting the country. Except BJP, no other major party has religion as its backbone of political existence, so there can be no such thing as a coalition of pro-Hindu parties.

• elections are won by the votes of the poor and the less educated lower middle class besides the members of the political parties. Nearly 40% of the Indians do not cast their vote for reasons such as indifference born out of despair, lack of enthusiasm to support a party with a reasonably honest set of candidates because either that party is not popular or it cannot field a candidate due to the 'coalition dharma', etc.

• poverty and lack of daily necessities of life are the factors that still decide governments, so there is no chance of a party taking over the reins on the basis of a religion. The ruling party that is irredeemably corrupt loots the tax payers money further by their free distribution schemes to temporarily win the favour of the poor and the religious minitority.

• even if a coalition survives past all these hurdles and tries to run a government ruled by Hindu Dharma, there is still the international pressure, chiefly from the US and the Vatican, the Communists, and the Jihadi Islamic terrorism.

Unless the people of India, specially among the Hindus and the among the religious minorities who favour nationalism to religious fanaticism, unite to speak in one voice for a governement that rules under the umbrella of Hindu Dharma, there cannot be any strong political initiative to form a Hindu Government in India.

To mobilize such public opinion is the foremost duty and need of the honour, which can become a reality only if our Hindu politicians, leaders of Hindu institutions and the Hindu religious leaders unite to form a plan of action and take charge of the situation.

atanu
10 October 2008, 03:17 AM
Namaste saideoji,


Namaste Atanu.
I am rather surprised at this comparison, specially your statment on 'complaining' about losing our poor to Christianity.


I know the comparison may be audacious but IMO, the comparison is valid to the extent that every human being serves the self only. This is what Upanishads teach, exhorting us to know the real self, which is not narrow and confined.


But the question is, can we afford to lose our tribes and the poor? Can we allow their ancient culture which is a subset of our Hindu culture to be destroyed in the farcical name of 'civilizing' them? What can happen if we lose these people to Christianity? Won't this be a chain reaction towards the other people? In India, there are more evangelists among the converted than among the imported. The missionary authorities pit these ignorant souls against their own (erstwhile) bretheren.

This can be answered at two levels. At spiritual level, 'we' and 'them' are not different from 'God', meaning that His Will be done. God is inscrutable and He destroys evil.

At secular waking life level, I agree with you. I am possibly more concerned than most people here, since I am in public life of India and not a NRI. I am in a work area where I am directly concerned.

In certain parts of North East, National companies are not allowed to work, whereas Christian companies have free access. Particularly, in Nagaland, foreign companies are given free access to land etc., whereas National Oil Companies are barred from working. It is a pathetic and dangerous situation and Government is sort of forced (in the name of liberalisation) to allow this audacious situation to thrive. I have seen our IAS babus and regulators on their knees. Money works and nothing else.

We must ruthlessly oppose the conversion designs, which are really not religious designs but they are for furthering business reach. The situation is too complicated and hatred, which breeds more hatred, is not a solution. Generalisation and stereotyping will do further damage by dividing the society. I reiterate that the path for this should be rooted in Truth, rooted in God, rooted in union and not in division. At rational level, we must accept that India is the greatest multi cultural and multi religion society and this has been held as one by the power of Goodness alone. It is not at all possible to drive away all Muslims or all Christians (who could not have been here except by the Will of God in the first place) unless a Hitler like monster takes control of the reigns and that is not desirable. Even if such a thing were to happen that would destroy India as Hitler destroyed Germany and brought misery upon the whole world. WE must also acknowledge that it is easier for an outsider to break into a divided house and that Caste excesses have rendered us divided.

Santana Dharma has withstood many onslaughts. And it will remain vibrant by the power of Goodness and by the power of the Good. As mentioned elsewhere, Goodness means recognizing the Good God everywhere and in everyone. This is the Atmic power that never diminishes.


Our Hindu society today, in India and abroad, by and large is westernized in lifestyle and outlook at its middle and upper ends and corrupted to Christianity at the lower.

To me, the westernized lifestyle is an enemy, since it is totally hollow with only 'i-me-mine' as the basis. Whereas there are some genuine God lovers among the Christians who believe in ONE GOD. I do know a few non Hindus who take part in our festivals without malice. There are good people like Ustad Ali Akbar Khan and many others who first pray to Saraswati before they take up their work. By generalizing and stereotyping we should not push them away.

I recognise that these are mostly political views wherein convergence is unheard of. But in minimum rational terms we must recognise the given realities and that non-hindus cannot be pushed away from India, which is home to them as it is home to me and you.

Regards,

Om

saidevo
10 October 2008, 01:45 PM
Namaste Atanu.



It is not at all possible to drive away all Muslims or all Christians (who could not have been here except by the Will of God in the first place) unless a Hitler like monster takes control of the reigns and that is not desirable. Even if such a thing were to happen that would destroy India as Hitler destroyed Germany and brought misery upon the whole world. WE must also acknowledge that it is easier to break into a divided house and that Caste excesses have rendered us divided.


I have not said anywhere in my posts, even inadvertently, that all Muslims and all Christians in India should be driven out of the country. I wonder how you could jump to that harsh conclusion by pressing the point twice in your reply.

• As history shows, Bharat has always been a multi-cultural land of diverse civilizations that were held in unity under the umbrella of Sanatana Dharma, which in turn was a Vedic way of life both for the king and his subjects. Unity in diversity has always been our way of life, even in this Kali Yuga, from whose advent our current period of history starts.

• Our kings have always been guided by our sages who gave them their books of ruling and conduct. Our sages have always guided us into acceptance and assimilation of the western religions and for peaceful co-existence with the practitioners of those faiths, even though they misued our accommodation and developed into ever-pestering aggrssive forces.

• This is in stark contrast to the behaviour and teachings of the prophets, priests and authorities of the western religions who always took an exclusive attitude, destroyed other religions and cultures wherever they were given asylum and converted the people of native faiths by all adharmic means. Had our sages advised the kings who gave first asylums to the Christians who settled in India to deal with them with the aggression that their own religions seek for their existence, India's history would have been very different today.

• Such is the power of goodness and wisdom that our sages have dispensed to us at all times in our history: they have always exhorted us to combat evil by Truth and Goodness. Sages like Swami Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandhi were highly critical of aggressions and forceful or induced conversion adopted by the western religions; still their teachings were always for peaceful coexistence and assimilation of the good in the teachings of the foreign religions.

• Even today, our sages teach us NEITHER to be aggressive and pro-active like the Christian missionaries and the Islamic terrorists NOR be violent and adharmic in our reactions. While people by and large follow their teachings, today's asuric rulers are so much influenced by the money power of the Christian religious authorities and politicians and intimidated by the Islamic religious authorities for their vote banks that they go to the extent of harassing our sages and take no concrete action when a Hindu sage who united Hindus against conversion is killed or Hindus die in terrorist activities.

• The very fact that we only react--as we needs must in many situations--and not be aggressive and pro-active, is indicative of our opposition being "rooted in Truth, rooted in God, rooted in union and not in division".



We must ruthlessly oppose the conversion desgins, which are really not religious desgins but they are for furthering business reach. The situation is too complicated and hatred, which breeds more hatred, is not a solution. Generalisation and stereotyping will do further damage by dividing the society.


• I don't think that the Christian conversion designs are not religious but only to further their business. If it is pure business, why do it in the name of the religion, when a good number of people in the corporate and technology sectors are far from being faithful Christians? What about all the 'popular services' the missionaries render to the poor? What business return do they fetch except an increase to their flocks?

• No Hindu blames the aggression of the authorities of the western religions on the Christian and Muslim commons or hate them for such acts, whereas in contrast, the Christian and Muslim commons make their hatred for Hinduism palpable in subtle and not so subtle ways. For example, in the Ayudha Puja celebrations in offices, the Christians would demand their share of prasAda (such as puffed rice and fruits) even before the Puja is performed, saying that they wouldn't accept a gift that is offered to a Hindu God. As against such attitude, the Hindus wouldn't mind accepting the Christmas cake or other such Christian divine gifts, even if they are first blessed by their priests or undergo other such ritual. Another example is that in Christian schools, the Christian teachers and students often make snide remarks about Hindu gods and rituals and indulge in such acts as not allowing Hindu girls and boys to wear religious symbols, not declaring holiday on popular Hindu festivals such as the Ganesh Chaturthi but to make Hindu students take examinations on that day, and in a variety of other perverse ways.

• Every Hindu knows that the Christian aggression is due to the Church authorities and the Islamic terrorism is due to the acts of misguided individuals; had they held the commons responsible for these acts, India would have long back entered into a civil war. Thus, it is not 'generalization and stereotyping' when the aggressions are attributed to the western religions for the simple reason that they are done under the name of the religion.

• When a Christian person or place of worship is attacked in a riot by Hindus, several Christians vociferously voice their protest. After the Orissa incidents, the Roman Catholic schools across the country declared a day's unscheduled holiday and involved their students in rallies against the attacks! Several Hindus also voice their protest against their own brethren indulging in adharmic acts motivated by feelings of revenge. I am yet to see the Christian commons voice their protest in such large numbers as Hindus do against their own brethren, even in our own HDFpuri, against conversion or attack on Hindu gods and people or other such adharma.



... all Muslims or all Christians (... could not have been here except by the Will of God in the first place)...


Is it also the Will of God to keep us inert, just by being good and minding our own business, even in the face of such adharma as would go to any extent--vilify our gods, sages and scriptures in the Christian propaganda literature, kill our sages and intimidate our peace-loving people? Why can't we take the Hindus' reactive aggression also as the Will of God? Fighting adharma is what Sri Krishna has taught us? Did not Sri Krishna advise Arjuna to start the Mahabharata war when all that the Pandavas got in return for their monumental goodness towards the Kauravas was only ever-breeding contempt? Is the situation today not similar to what prevailed in Kurukshetra then?



We must ruthlessly oppose the conversion desgins, which are really not religious desgins but they are for furthering business reach. I reiterate that the path for this should be rooted in Truth, rooted in God, rooted in union and not in division. At rational level, we must accept that India is the greatest multi cultural and multi religion society and this has been held as one by the power of Goodness alone.


• When our Vedic religion was under threat of extinction at the time Adi Sankara took avatar, Sankara prevailed upon the adharmic forces by debating the merits of Sanatana Dharma vis-a-vis the philosopies of Jaina and Buddhist religions. Today we are in a similar but far worse situation. Why aren't our religious leaders following the same path of Sankara today, by seeking and inviting the western religious leaders for debate and making them realize the Unity--not Exclusivity--of Truth? Even during the British rule there were debates between the Hindu pandits and Christian missionaries, right?

Our Acharyas don't debate with the western religious authorities because such spiritual, philosophical and metaphorical logic will never work with the people of those simplistic, shallow and worldly religions. The only way to counter the aggressors is to pay back in their own coin, so this has started happening today, after decades of Hindu patience has worn out.

This is why our religious leaders have today started asserting, to stem the tide of conversions: after the Orissa incidents, our Dharmacharyas have demanded a proper legislation from the state and central governments against conversions by coercion and allurement; earlier, they asserted to protect the Rama Sethu and our sacred Tirupati hills from foreign invasion. So long as our reaction is not violent and vandalistic, we shall have the whole hearted support of our Acharyas in fighting adharma, as taught by Sri Krishna.



Whereas there are some genuine God lovers among the Christians who believe in ONE GOD. I do know a few non Hindus who take part in our festivals without malice. There are good people like Ustad Ali Akbar Khan and many others who first pray to Saraswati before they take up their work. By generalizing and stereotyping we should not push them away.


I wholeheartedly agree with you here, and appreciate it: we had a senior Muslim gentleman colleague who kept a photo of Ganesha on his desk and prayed to Him daily; he also had Ganesha coming in his dreams to the envy of other senior people in his neighbourhood. I myself buy my puja articles from a Muslim store in our locality and the banana leaves on festive occasions from a Christian store. My Christian friends are all understanding, though not appreciative of our concepts of various forms of gods. In the visual media such as films and TV several Muslim and Christian personalities are behind the success of a Hindu religious program or film.

In the Srirangam Renganathar temple, Trichy, I have seen Muslim women in black dress replenishing oil in burning lamps in the outer courtyards. History has it that when the Delhi Sultan's representative Malik Kafur invaded South India, he plundered the wealth of the Srirangam temple and took away the procession-idol of Ranganatha. The Sultan's daughter fell in love with the idol, which could be recovered only after her death. The temple has honoured her memory by the name 'Tulukka Nachiar' with a sannidhi where her root image is located and a metal image for festive occasions.

The question is, despite the goodness, tolerance and dharmic ways that the Hindus display in their actions, do the Muslims and the Christians reciprocate the goodwill in equal measure and numbers? Being citizens of a great and ancient nation and being part of an ageless tradition, should they not empathize with their Hindu brethren and voice their protest against the aggressors in a bigger and more perceptible and effective way? If this done, is there not a much larger possibility of peaceful-coexistence?

atanu
10 October 2008, 11:47 PM
Namaste Atanu.

I have not said anywhere in my posts, even inadvertently, that all Muslims and all Christians in India should be driven out of the country. I wonder how you could jump to that harsh conclusion by pressing the point twice in your reply.


Namaste saidevoji,

Yes, you did not say it. I have also not said that you said it. Did I? I can never even imagine such a view from you. The above was a general comment based on a fact and to record a view to caution against many despairing but irresponsible comments made now and then (not by you). I can very well understand the despair behind those comments but I will not swerve from Advaita. Neither will I forsake rationality. When all Christians and all Muslims cannot be thrown away, because many of them were Hindus only, what other solution is there? If you can operate out a boil, well and good. If the boil cannot be thrown away then what one does?


The world has never been without these problems. If it is not Christian-Hindu problem, then it will be Hindu-Sikh or Vaisnava-Saiva, or Assamese-Bengali or Assamese-Bihari or Maharashtra-North India etc etc. All these problems are not apart from the pure consciousness -- and that is the ultimate truth. Who knows many Hindus might have been Christians in their last life and vice versa? Sanatana Dharma votaries are much much deeper since the ultimate truth is nearer to them.


• I don't think that the Christian conversion designs are not religious but only to further their business. If it is pure business, why do it in the name of the religion, when a good number of people in the corporate and technology sectors are far from being faithful Christians? What about all the 'popular services' the missionaries render to the poor? What business return do they fetch except an increase to their flocks?

Where from all this money comes? Historically, it has always been business/self preservation that has driven. Rest is all rationalisation and hypocrisy. When a Christian is angry at you, with clenched teeth, he will say: Bless You. At very fundamental level, the preservation of self drives all activities. We knew this before Darwin or or any other non-hindu person told us so.



Why can't we take the Hindus' reactive aggression also as the Will of God? Fighting adharma is what Sri Krishna has taught us?

Why should God WILL reactive aggression that leads to agony? (We are back to the fundamentals now).

All that happens in samsara is action and reaction of Gunas only and EGO is the POISON. "I", "My", and 'They' are based on a false idea of 'I'. True Dharma is to understand and transcend the vicious cycle. Krishna indeed says: Arjuna be a Yogi and do your job without expectation.

That is not an exhortation for all castes to take up arms or to see differences. And Shri Krishna showed Arjuna that who was the real doer. Shri Krishna highlighted Samata like no one else. I pointed out earlier that there are two ways to look at everything. One view is from the EGO's perspective where everything is "OTHER'. The higher view is that 'the OTHER' cannot be separate from the pure consciousness. Why should the Shiva pure consciousness show the other? It does not. Shiva is unbroken. It is ego that sees the other. It is a mistake.



When our Vedic religion was under threat of extinction at the time Adi Sankara took avatar, Sankara prevailed upon the adharmic forces by debating the merits of Sanatana Dharma vis-a-vis the philosopies of Jaina and Buddhist religions.

Yes. Not only Adi Sankara. Shri Rama and Shri Krishna also took birth to destroy adharmic forces. It is the very function of Lord Rudra to wipe out Adharma.


This is why our religious leaders have today started asserting, to stem the tide of conversions: after the Orissa incidents, our Dharmacharyas have demanded a proper legislation from the state and central governments against conversions by coercion and allurement;

Definitely. Asserting dharma is all that is required. And you will agree that Dharma is not Hindu, Jaina, or Sikh etc. Dharma is truth, justice, compassion. Just laws must be passed -- considering India as one Nation. And considering All people as those whom Shiva has sheltered.


I wholeheartedly agree with you here, and appreciate it: we had a senior Muslim gentleman colleague who kept a photo of Ganesha on his desk and prayed to Him daily; he also had Ganesha coming in his dreams to the envy of other senior people in his neighbourhood. I myself buy my puja articles from a Muslim store in our locality and the banana leaves on festive occasions from a Christian store. My Christian friends are all understanding, though not appreciative of our concepts of various forms of gods. In the visual media such as films and TV several Muslim and Christian personalities are behind the success of a Hindu religious program or film.

In the Srirangam Renganathar temple, Trichy, I have seen Muslim women in black dress replenishing oil in burning lamps in the outer courtyards. History has it that when the Delhi Sultan's representative Malik Kafur invaded South India, he plundered the wealth of the Srirangam temple and took away the procession-idol of Ranganatha. The Sultan's daughter fell in love with the idol, which could be recovered only after her death. The temple has honoured her memory by the name 'Tulukka Nachiar' with a sannidhi where her root image is located and a metal image for festive occasions.

The question is, despite the goodness, tolerance and dharmic ways that the Hindus display in their actions, do the Muslims and the Christians reciprocate the goodwill in equal measure and numbers? Being citizens of a great and ancient nation and being part of an ageless tradition, should they not empathize with their Hindu brethren and voice their protest against the aggressors in a bigger and more perceptible and effective way? If this done, is there not a much larger possibility of peaceful-coexistence?

I agree. The above is Shiva. A lit bit of love goes a long way. Though Rajasic and Tamasic Gunas will always strive to undo the good and it takes infinite patience. Actually there is no IN and OUT. God destroys mental In and Out in a moment.

I am sure that the solution to any problem is the Good -- Shiva. And I am sure that a Christian Missionary or a Muslim terrorist also have Shiva in heart -- albeit known by different names to them. But does Shiva change because of His residence in different place and time? Does He change His nature while residing in different hearts?

But please do not consider this post an exhortation to accept lawlessness. Dharma-Just Law, must be enforced as a Rajadharma. A wise Raja cannot be prejudiced based on colour, caste, or language. It is said in scripture that Rudra has no relatives. That is the definition of the just Raja who acts without sleeping and who is not bound by any prejudice. It is wrong to assume that the Lord is sleeping and this wrong assumption has potential to harm one's own peace.

Everyone is prisoner to one's Gunas. The terrorist is prisoner to wrong perceptions. The Missionary is prisoner to his pomposity and enlarged ego. All their acts dirty the world. Despair also is not welcome since it is based on an error that the Raja is sleeping.


Regards

saidevo
10 October 2008, 11:54 PM
[Quote=saidevo;
Several Hindus also voice their protest against their own brethren indulging in adharmic acts motivated by feelings of revenge.
[/Quote]

The glass on the casing of a Biblical verse displayed in a church board at Anna Nagar, Chennai was found smashed on 10th Oct 2008. This could have been done by anone, a naughty kid for example. Yet this news has received a 3-column front page coverage and then a quarter-page coverage on the second page in the mainstream daily New Indian Express, with some Hindu celebrities and politicians, two Christian notables and a Muslim poet issuing statements, proving yet again that it is the Hindus who are the first to condemns acts of adharma by their own brethren.

Where were these people when Swami Lakshmanananda was brutally murdered and the Hindu gods, sages and texts vilified leading to the Hindu unrest in Orissa and Karnataka? How many Christians did condemn these more serious crimes?

atanu
11 October 2008, 12:00 AM
The glass on the casing of a Biblical verse displayed in a church board at Anna Nagar, Chennai was found smashed on 10th Oct 2008. This could have been done by anone, a naughty kid for example. Yet this news has received a 3-column front page coverage and then a quarter-page coverage on the second page in the mainstream daily New Indian Express, with some Hindu celebrities and politicians, two Christian notables and a Muslim poet issuing statements, proving yet again that it is the Hindus who are the first to condemns acts of adharma by their own brethren.

Where were these people when Swami Lakshmanananda was brutally murdered and the Hindu gods, sages and texts vilified leading to the Hindu unrest in Orissa and Karnataka? How many Christians did condemn these more serious crimes?



Several Hindus also voice their protest against their own brethren indulging in adharmic acts motivated by feelings of revenge.


Namaste saidevoji,

Yes, I agree, while keeping in mind that it was Shiva who alone accepted the poison. He never sleeps.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
11 October 2008, 12:39 AM
Namaste Atanu.

• This is in stark contrast to the behaviour and teachings of the prophets, priests and authorities of the western religions who always took an exclusive attitude, destroyed other religions and cultures wherever they were given asylum and converted the people of native faiths by all adharmic means. -?

Namaste Saidevoji,

I have spent sometime with other scripture to find out whether they teach exclusive attitude. For example, I repeat a verse from Kuran that you had seen earlier.

2

84. And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).

85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

--------------


This is the teaching of Shiva, the beloved. The terrorist is not Muslim. The Missionary who works with ulterior motives and creates tension in the society is not a Christian.


Om Namah Shivaya

vcindiana
11 October 2008, 02:26 PM
Dear Forum friends:

In this post I felt it was compelling for me to cut and paste. Some of you may not like to be told like this. Please read my own comments at the end.

Purge caste out of Hindu society ( Deccan Herald )

Why don't the great champions of Hinduism look within their hearts and find out why so many are disenchanted by their pretensions of piety?

By Khushwant Singh

Recent incidents of violence and vandalism against Christians and their churches deserve to be condemned unreservedly. They have blackened the face of India and ruined the reputation of Hindus being the most religiously tolerant people in the world. At the same time, we must take a closer look at people who convert from one faith to another.

To start with, these days, there are no forced conversions anywhere in the world. Those who assert that the poor, innocent and ignorant of India are being forced to accept Christianity are blatant liars. A few, educated and well-to-do people convert to another faith when they do not find solace in the faith of their ancestors.

There are also people who convert to the faith of those they wish to marry. However, the largest number of converts come from communities discriminated against. The outstanding example was that of Dalit leader Bhimrao Ambedkar who led his Mahar community to embrace Buddhism because they were discriminated against by upper caste Hindus. This is also true of over 90 per cent of Indian Muslims whose ancestors being lower caste embraced Islam which gave them equal status. That gives lie to the slander that Islam made converts by the sword.

An equally large number of people converted out of gratitude. They were neglected, ignorant and poor. When strangers came to look after them, opened schools and hospitals for them, healed them and helped them to stand on their own feet, to hold their heads high, they felt grateful towards their benefactors. Most of them were Christian missionaries who worked in remote villages and brought hope to the lives of people there.

To this day, Christian missionaries run the best schools, colleges and hospitals in our country. They are inexpensive and free of corruption. They get converts because of the sense of gratitude they generate. Can this be called forcible conversion? Why don’t the great champions of Hinduism look within their hearts and find out why so many are disenchanted by their pretensions of piety? Let them first set their own houses in order, purge the caste system out of Hindu society and welcome with open arms all those who wish to join them. No one will then convert from Hinduism to another religion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Comments

I know you will be asking why Christians (in their “Adharmic ‘’way) are forcing their views? I do know they have done some of the worst things in JC's name. Earlier Church had no power, but only Grace. It was illegal to be Christian. Many Jesus’ early followers were martyred. Martyr in Greek means to give witness, witness to their commitment to Grace. With the conversion of Constantine around 400 AD, Church went from the margin of the society to the center, from the martyrdom to the seat of honor. It became illegal to be non Christian. Heretics were burnt on the stakes. Church abandoned Grace and picked up the sword. Coercion and control became the preferred tools of the Church. Hard side of the Christianity was brought up by quoting the several words of God literally hating people especially in the Old Testament of the Bible . Church claimed God’s Love is limited, He only loves the “saved” and He rejects the “wicked”. (Toxic Faith) Church literally went by the small meaning without looking into the bigger picture of paradoxical and metaphorical explanation of Universal love and fellowship as exemplified in the life style of JC. JC asked his people to follow, never mentioned to worship him, not to put Cross on a steeple but He asked to carry the cross on our shoulders into the world. It is much easier for Christians to make an image of him, idolize him and become judgmental. It is difficult to follow JC's life style. No wonder some of the people in this forum hate Christianity.

Thanks for reading ………………Blessing ………Love........VC

TatTvamAsi
11 October 2008, 09:57 PM
Namaste,

This is the most ridiculous article I've read in a while. And no surprise that it is an Indian who has written it; albeit a Sikh. Christian conversions world over, and especially in India are almost always through allurement, bribery, corruption, and coercion. There is no debate to this; it is fact! Millions of the disenfranchised Indians embrace it out of destitution, not for newfound philosophy or solace that Hinduism lacks! It is a travesty that those people, mostly non-Hindus, who claim that people convert out of Hinduism in search of better philosophy or equality in treatment etc. Blacks in America are still highly discriminated against, black muslims face the same prejudice by Arabs and other muslims.

This article you've quoted is absolute garbage and just because an Indian has written, even if he was to be a so-called 'Hindu', does not mean he knows what he is writing about.

Christians and Muslims have murdered millions of people throughout their short 2000 year history. It is sad that instead of bringing peace of mind, tranquility, and prosperity, these two 'religions' have brought about the destruction of all ancient societies, religions, peoples, and cultures around the world EXCEPT HINDUISM & INDIA! They are doggedly trying to break that one too but it will NEVER happen! And for that, I am PROUD and HAPPY! Remember, India's motto is "SATYAMEVA JAYATE" (Truth will triumph!).

Subham.


Dear Forum friends:

In this post I felt it was compelling for me to cut and paste. Some of you may not like to be told like this. Please read my own comments at the end.

Purge caste out of Hindu society ( Deccan Herald )

Why don't the great champions of Hinduism look within their hearts and find out why so many are disenchanted by their pretensions of piety?

By Khushwant Singh

Recent incidents of violence and vandalism against Christians and their churches deserve to be condemned unreservedly. They have blackened the face of India and ruined the reputation of Hindus being the most religiously tolerant people in the world. At the same time, we must take a closer look at people who convert from one faith to another.

To start with, these days, there are no forced conversions anywhere in the world. Those who assert that the poor, innocent and ignorant of India are being forced to accept Christianity are blatant liars. A few, educated and well-to-do people convert to another faith when they do not find solace in the faith of their ancestors.

There are also people who convert to the faith of those they wish to marry. However, the largest number of converts come from communities discriminated against. The outstanding example was that of Dalit leader Bhimrao Ambedkar who led his Mahar community to embrace Buddhism because they were discriminated against by upper caste Hindus. This is also true of over 90 per cent of Indian Muslims whose ancestors being lower caste embraced Islam which gave them equal status. That gives lie to the slander that Islam made converts by the sword.

An equally large number of people converted out of gratitude. They were neglected, ignorant and poor. When strangers came to look after them, opened schools and hospitals for them, healed them and helped them to stand on their own feet, to hold their heads high, they felt grateful towards their benefactors. Most of them were Christian missionaries who worked in remote villages and brought hope to the lives of people there.

To this day, Christian missionaries run the best schools, colleges and hospitals in our country. They are inexpensive and free of corruption. They get converts because of the sense of gratitude they generate. Can this be called forcible conversion? Why don’t the great champions of Hinduism look within their hearts and find out why so many are disenchanted by their pretensions of piety? Let them first set their own houses in order, purge the caste system out of Hindu society and welcome with open arms all those who wish to join them. No one will then convert from Hinduism to another religion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Comments

I know you will be asking why Christians (in their “Adharmic ‘’way) are forcing their views? I do know they have done some of the worst things in JC's name. Earlier Church had no power, but only Grace. It was illegal to be Christian. Many Jesus’ early followers were martyred. Martyr in Greek means to give witness, witness to their commitment to Grace. With the conversion of Constantine around 400 AD, Church went from the margin of the society to the center, from the martyrdom to the seat of honor. It became illegal to be non Christian. Heretics were burnt on the stakes. Church abandoned Grace and picked up the sword. Coercion and control became the preferred tools of the Church. Hard side of the Christianity was brought up by quoting the several words of God literally hating people especially in the Old Testament of the Bible . Church claimed God’s Love is limited, He only loves the “saved” and He rejects the “wicked”. (Toxic Faith) Church literally went by the small meaning without looking into the bigger picture of paradoxical and metaphorical explanation of Universal love and fellowship as exemplified in the life style of JC. JC asked his people to follow, never mentioned to worship him, not to put Cross on a steeple but He asked to carry the cross on our shoulders into the world. It is much easier for Christians to make an image of him, idolize him and become judgmental. It is difficult to follow JC's life style. No wonder some of the people in this forum hate Christianity.

Thanks for reading ………………Blessing ………Love........VC

saidevo
11 October 2008, 09:59 PM
To start with, these days, there are no forced conversions anywhere in the world. Those who assert that the poor, innocent and ignorant of India are being forced to accept Christianity are blatant liars. A few, educated and well-to-do people convert to another faith when they do not find solace in the faith of their ancestors.


Khushwant Singh, the literary author, is also famous for his jokes. This must be one of them.



There are also people who convert to the faith of those they wish to marry.


This is in most cases sought to be achieved by force, as a recent member of ours has testified.



However, the largest number of converts come from communities discriminated against. The outstanding example was that of Dalit leader Bhimrao Ambedkar who led his Mahar community to embrace Buddhism because they were discriminated against by upper caste Hindus.


People who oppose the caste and varNa system have Ambedkar as the standard--and clichéd--example of Ambedkar taking to Buddhism, hiding the truth behind it. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism on Oct.14, 1956, less than two months before his death (he died on Dec.6, 1956). Thus Ambedkar remained a Hindu for almost the whole of his life. While it is true that he fought against untouchability, he rose to fame, recognition and a high position in public life, only remaining as a Hindu: he rose to the position of being an architect of the Constitution of India; and yet, sadly, he never supported the Indian National Movement for freedom and independence!

Arun Shorie, in his book Worshipping False Gods, writes (emphasis by me):
http://www.rediff.com/freedom/29ambed.htm



Ambedkar's public life begins in a sense from a public meeting held at the Damodar Hall in Bombay on March 9, 1924. The struggle for freeing the country from the British was by then in full swing. Swami Vivekananda's work, Sri Aurobindo's work, the Lokmanya's work had already stirred the country. Lokmanya Tilak had passed away in 1920. The leadership of the National Movement had fallen on Gandhiji. He had already led the country in the Champaran satyagraha, the Khilafat movement, in the satyagraha against the Rowlatt Act, against the killings in Jallianwala Bagh and the merciless repression in Punjab. This National Movement culminated in the country's Independence in 1947.

In a word, a quarter century of Ambedkar's public career overlapped with this struggle of the country to free itself from British rule. There is not one instance, not one single, solitary instance in which Ambedkar participated in any activity connected with that struggle to free the country. Quite the contrary--at every possible turn he opposed the campaigns of the National Movement, at every setback to the Movement he was among those cheering the failure.

Thus, while the years culminated in the country's Independence, in Ambedkar's case they culminated in his becoming a member of the Viceroy's Council, that is -- to use the current terms -- a Minister in the British Cabinet in India.

The writings of Ambedkar following the same pattern. The Maharashtra government has by now published 14 volumes of the speeches and writings of Ambedkar. These cover 9,996 pages. Volumes up to the 12th contain his speeches and writing up to 1946. These extend to 7,371 pages. You would be hard put to find one article, one speech, one passage in which Ambedkar can be seen even by inference to be arguing for India's Independence. Quite the contrary.
...

As we shall see when we turn to Ambedkar's views on how harijans may be raised, it is an out and out regurgitation of the things that the British rulers and the missionaries wanted to be said, of the allegations and worse that they had been hurling at our civilisation and people.




This is also true of over 90 per cent of Indian Muslims whose ancestors being lower caste embraced Islam which gave them equal status. That gives lie to the slander that Islam made converts by the sword.


Yes, it is a lie that Islam converts by sword; nowadays it does by bombs. If the lower castes seek Islam because of discrimination, why is it not happening in large numbers today?



To this day, Christian missionaries run the best schools, colleges and hospitals in our country. They are inexpensive and free of corruption.


This is again a highly prejudiced statement from the learned Sardarji. In Tamilnadu, at the school finals level, only Hindu schools seize all the top positions of ranks, the DAV and Ahobilam Matha school in Chennai are two examples. Likewise, the Anna University, Chennai, with its own colleges of engineering, is the best university in Tamilnadu. The Super-Speciality Hospitals run by Sathya Sai Baba Insititude in Bangalore and Andhra Pradesh offer treatment to the poor that surpass that offered in popular Christian hospitals in all areas, including cost.

There can be no two opinion that the discrmination in the caste system, not the system itself, should be eliminated. While we do this, we must expose the falsity of claims of the votaries who seek to be champions of this cause.

atanu
12 October 2008, 08:54 AM
Dear Forum friends:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Comments

I know you will be asking why Christians (in their “Adharmic ‘’way) are forcing their views? I do know they have done some of the worst things in JC's name. Earlier Church had no power, but only Grace. It was illegal to be Christian. Many Jesus’ early followers were martyred. Martyr in Greek means to give witness, witness to their commitment to Grace. With the conversion of Constantine around 400 AD, Church went from the margin of the society to the center, from the martyrdom to the seat of honor. It became illegal to be non Christian. Heretics were burnt on the stakes. Church abandoned Grace and picked up the sword. Coercion and control became the preferred tools of the Church. Hard side of the Christianity was brought up by quoting the several words of God literally hating people especially in the Old Testament of the Bible . Church claimed God’s Love is limited, He only loves the “saved” and He rejects the “wicked”. (Toxic Faith) Church literally went by the small meaning without looking into the bigger picture of paradoxical and metaphorical explanation of Universal love and fellowship as exemplified in the life style of JC. JC asked his people to follow, never mentioned to worship him, not to put Cross on a steeple but He asked to carry the cross on our shoulders into the world. It is much easier for Christians to make an image of him, idolize him and become judgmental. It is difficult to follow JC's life style. No wonder some of the people in this forum hate Christianity.

Thanks for reading ………………Blessing ………Love........VC


Namaste VC,

Most of us do not hate Jesus. Some of us also agree to some points of what Kushwant Singh writes. I personally agree with many points of Vir Sanghvi and Shashi Tharoor, both of whom have argued that freedom to pick one's religion must be granted as this is the basis of a democratic India. Conversions cannot be banned in India, unless we wish to make India into an image of Pakistan or other Muslim countries. I also personally agree that application of one sided interpretation of varna system by the privileged has contributed to a dissatisfaction among some people and some movement away from Hinduism. We have highlighted the varna differences rather than highlight the one Lord equal in all varnas.


But I do believe that there is planned coercion in these Christian conversion programs, which are strategically planned and very well funded. These are known as Church planting programs. Christian NGO's recieve maximum overseas donations. Similarly, if Christian schools and colleges were known to be good then the main success factor was the flush foreign money. You can confirm that the Church planting plans are strategic and vicious or not in the following two pages and associated material.

http://imbresources.org/index.cfm/fa/donation.giving/location/asia

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19364


Indian Government has been in dillemma. As I mentioned before, the result of mass scale conversions during the 1950s in Nagaland is that today no Indian company can function there whereas Italian Christian companies are welcome and working. Any Indian, irrespective of his or her religious background should be alarmed at this. English educated authors such as Kushwant Singh, Vir Sanghvi and Shashi Tharoor are good and analytical but they IMO, are missing a key point.

They hold that voluntary conversions cannot be banned. That is OK. But are the conversions voluntary? Some one should bring to the notice of these authors the Church planting plans, especially in the light of Nagaland experience. There may be a day, when an Indian may be required to be a Christian to get a job or a business contract. This is not a phobia. Christians do not talk of Brotherhood. They talk of 'Our Christian brotherhood'. They are the most hateable groups on this planet.

It is unholy. I have seen in South India, a Christian, possibly from USA, using hundreds of hired cars (yes hundreds) with Indian cohorts to spread hatred against Hindu way of life for 15 days with massive coverage. In open air pandals, in churches and in TV. And such planned programs are frequent. Do you not feel (irrespective of your religion) that this is unholy and should be stopped? We must individually and in group exert influence so that the incoming foreign funds for Christian Missionary work is screened. We must also engage rationally with likes of Vir Sanghvi or Shashi Tharoor (who are good rational people) to show to them that the conversions are not without coercion.

I have written this as an Indian and not particularly as a Hindu. As a world citizen I see not much difference between Christian or Muslim Jihadi -- both of them are not following their professed religions.

atanu
12 October 2008, 09:29 AM
A good prose on the subject, except the title, which, IMO, should be Conversions and not Conversations

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/conversations-with-foreignfunded-charity/372252/1

vcindiana
12 October 2008, 10:34 PM
Dear Atanu: I love the way you put it I have written this as an Indian and not particularly as a Hindu
I dream one day every one will be beyond the labels like a Hindu or a Christian, or a Muslim, we all is children of God.
As the people of Indian origin we need to continue to hold to the principle that voluntary conversions cannot be banned as the authors you mentioned. This is the same opinion expressed by the author who also expresses resentment towards the fly by evangelists in this forum post Missionary position under current politics.
It is not my intention to undermine some of the “Unholy’ things Christians do in the world. The question is how we can stop these activities? Do Hindus have to declare a “Holy” war (Dharma) as mentioned by some people in this forum? If that is the way then how Hindus become different from the Jihadi people? It has already happened in the recent month in Orissa and Karnataka and Hindus are becoming “Himsa’ people. I know it is an emotional or mob mentality, but there is absolutely no excuse to commit such atrocities on innocent people as revenge. Gandhi humorously said it, with an eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon every one of us become blind and toothless. The only way of God’s justice I see is the real understanding of the cause, reconciliation, persistent and courageous nonviolent protest, prayer and trust in ever loving almighty God. India has proved to be a leader in showing the world Satyagraha and non violence as no match for any power. Fighting against “coerced” conversion cannot be that hard.
I dream that all the religious Gurus, Babas, Popes, Imams etc shed their religious garbs, make themselves clear to us that they are no different from us, not holier than us, come out to the streets and embrace and eat and drink with each one of us including the poorest of the poor, the pariahs, shudras, gays, lesbians, criminals etc as God treats them all alike.

This is not something we expect from Government nor do we need some legislation. We need hearts of people. There is no way thousands of years of Hindu scriptures can be destroyed by a few misguided missionaries.

Love…………VC

atanu
13 October 2008, 02:22 AM
This is not something we expect from Government nor do we need some legislation. We need hearts of people. There is no way thousands of years of Hindu scriptures can be destroyed by a few misguided missionaries.

Love…………VC

Namaste VC,

Thank you for your considered reply. While I agree that we need hearts of people for any good cause but in such a situation where wilful encroachers do not listen to heart's messages; strong, just, and uniform legislation may be required. But that is the job of the Government, who will require unified support from most people.

And for that we require the hearts of all people together -- not cancelling each other by tearing at each other.

Om

Harjas Kaur
14 October 2008, 02:03 AM
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Harjas Kaur
14 October 2008, 02:51 AM
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sm78
15 October 2008, 03:29 AM
we require the hearts of all people together -- not cancelling each other by tearing at each other.


Yet, if we succeed in cancelling each other by tearing each other,
labels will not be there any more and vcindian's dream may not be far-fetched.



I dream one day every one will be beyond the labels like a Hindu or a Christian, or a Muslim, we all is children of God.

atanu
15 October 2008, 03:57 AM
Yet, if we succeed in cancelling each other by tearing each other,
labels will not be there any more and vcindian's dream may not be far-fetched.

SM,

Namaskar,

You should have also mentioned that Devas have united hearts. There is another category where all hearts have been cancelled.

If you read through the full discussion, you would have found that the common point that all have agreed upon is that Missionary activity should be stopped on Indian soil for the good of India and the world. Is there any need to dilute the agreement by pointing out at differences cynically?

If possible, you can engage Vir Sanghvi or Shashi Tharoor, because they write in largest circulated newspapers, to bring to their attention that conversions are not without coercion.

Regards and Best Wishes

Om

sm78
15 October 2008, 05:04 AM
SM,

Namaskar,

You should have also mentioned that Devas have united hearts. There is another category where all hearts have been cancelled.

If you read through the full discussion, you would have found that the common point that all have agreed upon is that Missionary activity should be stopped on Indian soil for the good of India and the world. Is there any need to dilute the agreement by pointing out at differences cynically?

If possible, you can engage Vir Sanghvi or Shashi Tharoor, because they write in largest circulated newspapers, to bring to their attention that conversions are not without coercion.

Regards and Best Wishes

Om

Sorry, old habits never die.

But on a serious note I do believe that idealism of "no barriers", "brotherhood" etc is not quite the way nature functions.

Resolution comes through conflicts and there is no escape from this in human birth ~ From Sat Yuga to this age, there was never a time without conflict in human history and pre history.

So whenever I see idealisms without any appreciation for the role of conflict in nature, by wires gets pulled.

atanu
15 October 2008, 05:45 AM
Sorry, old habits never die.

But on a serious note I do believe that idealism of "no barriers", "brotherhood" etc is not quite the way nature functions.

Resolution comes through conflicts and there is no escape from this in human birth ~ From Sat Yuga to this age, there was never a time without conflict in human history and pre history.

So whenever I see idealisms without any appreciation for the role of conflict in nature, by wires gets pulled.

Dear SM,

Fight is with asuras, vrittas, tendencies and not with Shiva, who, by definition alone, is GOOD and resides in every heart. If we forget this simple teaching, then how are we votaries of Sanatana Dharma, which we intend to protect? Can any Santana Dharma believer say that Vishnu is here but not there and Shiva resides in Hindu hearts alone?

Anyway, I do not want to sound like a moralising idealist. Enough of talk has already taken place. On the contrary, let us work together and send a message to the moralising Christians, by whatever dharmic means you propose, that their moralising is not required and conversions should stop. I just point out that in doing this there will be enough conflicts to be overcome, as the US and European Governments provide support to these Christians in some way or other (mostly in the name of humanitarian aid).

Please tell us what we can do?


Regards

Om

sm78
15 October 2008, 08:53 AM
Dear SM,

Fight is with asuras, vrittas, tendencies and not with Shiva, who, by definition alone, is GOOD and resides in every heart. If we forget this simple teaching, then how are we votaries of Sanatana Dharma, which we intend to protect? Can any Santana Dharma believer say that Vishnu is here but not there and Shiva resides in Hindu hearts alone?


But we r not fighting with shiva but vRtta alone. Is saying a christian missonary is evil same as saying the shiva in him is evil?? And more importanly, since there is Shiva residing also in the heart of a islamic bomber, there must be something good about being an islamic bomber??

I thought true Advaita (unreality of external nature) frees us from such idealistic burdens.

But, I agree that enough has been said on this topic of conversion.



Please tell us what we can do?

What u can do is your call. If you ask me, christian missionary conversion is not the greatest threat for this society.

atanu
15 October 2008, 09:07 AM
But, I agree that enough has been said on this topic of conversion.


What u can do is your call. If you ask me, christian missionary conversion is not the greatest threat for this society.

Namaskar Singhi,

Yes. Enough from us. And of course the threat perceptions vary, that was the point all along.

Om

Harjas Kaur
16 October 2008, 03:47 AM
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atanu
24 October 2008, 07:56 AM
Do any of you realize the sacrifice and suffering required to protect Bharata from oppression of radical conversion efforts? Do you know the meaning of the mountain range Hindu Kush? It means the mountain of slaughtered Hindus. Do you realize the sheer cost to defend the eternal Dharma you so proudly debate? Do you realize the God has descended in so many incarnations to set Dharma back on it's throne again and again and again?

Namaste Harjas Ji,

We need sattwik strength as of yours. I appreciate your love and strong affinity towards protection of eternal dharma, though i do not comprehend one or two things. Who are these proud but ignorant debaters you are referring to as 'you'. And who is the other, who alone knows the cost of sacrifice?





"In the degraded condition of human society, the Lord incarnates as the Kalki avatara and kills all the demonic without mercy."
~Srimad Bhagavatum 2.7.38
I do not see the connection of this verse with the rest of your post, which highlights the dasam guru Sri Govind Singh Ji (Though i get the inkling as to what you mean). Agreed. But, if Lord incarnates to uproot evil, then to whom is the sheer cost? Why you only know about the sheer cost and others do not? Are you personally, or as part of a group bearing the cost?

Is Lord a faction leader? I suggest that you remember that Lord, after destroying Kauravas, also caused destruction of Yadus.

Regards.

Om Namah Shivaya

Harjas Kaur
24 October 2008, 02:24 PM
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Harjas Kaur
24 October 2008, 03:32 PM
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atanu
24 October 2008, 11:19 PM
And just talking with enemies of Dharma, just agreeing with them as forms of the God or another kind of brother will cause untold harm to Dharma.


Namaste Harjas,

Your long post does not negate the fact that you consider the debaters as proud and ignorant of cost and imply that you know the cost. This is the typical Christian mentality that I am personally against. No one suggested adharma. What I suggest is that it is the job of security and not of all to take up arms or spew venom. We as good citizens can help to form good opinion and help to create just laws.



So if you like, you can go back through this entire thread and try to see what it was I had been addressing. Such as this comment below:

You please go through the entire thread and see the judgemental parts.


Now to people who get lost in philosophy about how equal is the enemy to God, and forget that correct Dharmic response

Enemy of God are those who forget samata as taught by God and spew hatred in the name of God. Muslim terrorists do not abide by Koran:

2

84. And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).

85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

And similarly there are emotional issues that distort scriptures in every religion. These divisive emotional issues do not have anything to do with Shiva -- the Good God, but has root in dis-balance of Gunas.





http://news.restoringthepride.com/image/11-01-06/003.jpg
Is this what you mean by your comment? Please feel free to make it clear. And let me know perhaps I am making a huge mistake trying to stand for .


Yes. This is what is the truth. Hatred has no relgion. It is based only on a false idea of I-Me-Mine. There will be no end of hatred: Hindu-Muslim, Hindu-Sikh, Marathi-Bihari, Assami-Bihari, Jew-Christian etc etc. And to understand this phenomenom you have to go one step back (when Mrs. Gandhi was killed) and then another step and then INFINITE REGRESS. And then you may comprehend what is meant by the term 'without beginning karma' and 'without beginning ignorance'.

There is no end to historical revenge. Hindu and Buddhist religions are about NOW and one's own MIND.

(I request you to respond slowly if you decide to respond to avoid emotions).

When I said that Lord destroyed Kauravas and also the yadus, I indicated that Lord Himself is Dharma -- no one destroys Him. Destroyed are those from whom there has been danger to the Universe, the overzealous reformers who take upon themselves the task of reforming, branding every apparent other as "ignorant you". Ignorance takes upon itself the tasks of reforming others assuming superiority. And that is the Asuric Vritta, which Indra destroys.
------------------------------

I withdraw from the thread because the concerns in this thread and many others are more political than spiritual. At the same time respecting the wise political concerns of the wise participants of HDF.:)

Happy Dipavali


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
24 October 2008, 11:23 PM
Guru Teg Bahadur

"My answer is that I am a Hindu and I love Hindu Dharma. How can anybody destroy it? It provides happiness both in this world as well as in the other world. There is no other religion like it. Only a deranged person or a fool would leave it to become vile. Hindu dharma would remain in the world for ever. It is not going to be destroyed by your efforts."

Om Namah Shivaya

10.054.01 (I celebrate), Maghavat, the great glory (you have acquired) by your might; when heaven and earth alarmed called upon you, you did defend the gods, and destroy (their) adversary; (I celebrate your glory), Indra, in that you gave strength to one person (the worshipper).

10.054.02 When you proceed, Indra, increasing in form, and proclaiming your prowess among mankind, false is that your (wandering), false the combats which you have narrated; you (find) now no enemy (to attack), did you formerly find one?

10.054.03 Who among the r.s.is before us have obtained the limit of your entire greatness, since from your own person you have generated at once both mother and father (or earth and heaven)?

Om Namah Shivaya

Harjas Kaur
25 October 2008, 06:33 AM
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Ganeshprasad
25 October 2008, 08:32 AM
Pranam Atanu ji harjas kour and all

I see this thread turning in to nasty feud which is greatly regretted .

Everyone sees a problem through their own vision and come with a solution which they see fit.

Fact that we perceive this vast problem and acknowledge it is a step in right direction, unfortunately there are millions who are oblivious to this or do not care, this apathy will be one of the cause of our downfall.

There is no way on earth, for one who is in knowledge, of this great dharma which stood the test of time, can ever be affected by those so called abrahamic religion.


I hope some off the differences that has been expressed can be sorted out amicably for I see all of you are lover of Hindu Dharma and in your own way would protect the dharma as you see fit, all effort from all direction will result in achieving the same goal.

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
25 October 2008, 08:35 AM
I never said anywhere that anyone was proud and ignorant.

May be. If you did not then I have erred and I am sorry for that.


Do you realize this single act of stupidity fueled a militancy which lasted over 25 years? And then are you going to wax poetic about hypocritical non-violence? It would be nice if we lived in a world where non-violence could be an appropriate response and where there are no real world repercussions.

But do you realise as a spiritual person that there is no beginning and end of this poisonous fuel?

That is the point Harjas. Your writing style seems to question the level of understanding of your co-participants in almost every paragraph. You simply are not able to understand that you create opposition by simply writing. This created the problem in another thread, and thus I beg respectfully to be pardoned. THis will be my last interaction with you on the subject lest the discussion loses meaning in ego. It is very clear that there is lot of baggage being carried.

Before stopping, I wish to tell you the following. Harjas ji, in 1984, my father gave shelter to Sikhs who were under attack. and long back, my father, who has migrated 3 times from 3 different nations, was given shelter by his Muslim friends. My experience and value system is different. And, personally, I understand that Hinduism's first dictum is "Heal Thyself". This value is in minority. But no problem about that.


Best Wishes

atanu
25 October 2008, 08:57 AM
Pranam Atanu ji harjas kour and all

I see this thread turning in to nasty feud which is greatly regretted .

-Jai Shree Krishna

Namaskar Ganeshprasad ji,

I appreciate your concern but assure you that there is nothing nasty. It is just a matter of examining varying styles (which often appear to clash) and trying to arrive at a common good goal.

Whatever be the majority opinion on this forum, I believe that God is the judge and just. God is the Dharma and there is no way that He can be defeated. Protecting Dharma, IMO, does not mean that everyone must embrace warfare. OTOH, Dharma for everyone means transcending the deadly sins of lust, avarice, greed, hatred, and ignorance of I-Me-Mine.

Regards

Om

Ganeshprasad
25 October 2008, 12:59 PM
Pranam Atanu ji




I appreciate your concern but assure you that there is nothing nasty. .



From where I am sitting that’s what I perceived, I could be wrong




It is just a matter of examining varying styles (which often appear to clash) and trying to arrive at a common good goal.

I do not expect anything else from you.




I believe that God is the judge and just.

For this there is no doubt, yet what else would he judge if not our actions.
What would he think! if like ostrich if we think there is no danger.



God is the Dharma and there is no way that He can be defeated. Protecting Dharma, IMO, does not mean that everyone must embrace warfare.

Now there is no question of defeat for god nor there is a need for everyone to embrace warfare, far from it, after exhausting all the effort only then Krishna says to Arjun Uthista, youdh karish cha nischya.
Krishna uses Arjun as instrument to fight against Adharma Lord Sri Ram assembles army of vanaras to fight against Ravana. Now we know god can wipe out evil if he so wished but some how he uses others as his instrument why so?
We have no physical war to fight, the enemy if you want to call them enemy comes in guise, backed by petrol dollar and government backed institute to harvest us heathens or infidel and they pray on weak and poor, what is that we can do, I have no idea, I know problem is big, solution requires calm and determined mind, in this seemingly difficult task two incidence comes to mind both of a sparrow, one is determined to dry up the ocean to save her eggs and another time sparrows were doing their bit to build bridge for Lord Ram.
Perhaps we can also try educate our misguided brothers and sisters of other faith that we have our own faith and intellectually they are trying to light a lamp in front of the sun.




OTOH, Dharma for everyone means transcending the deadly sins of lust, avarice, greed, hatred, and ignorance of I-Me-Mine.

Yours is the lofty ideals which we have cultivated for since beginning of time.
Ours is Dharma of sacrifice, in giving up in living in peace.
Along came people of other faith and they subjugated for 1000 of years but what kept us going was our dharma. And it is dharma that will keep this world sane. Kaam Krodh And Lobh is a personal battle where else hatred and ignorance stems from mine is better then yours attitude.
Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
26 October 2008, 03:27 AM
Pranam Atanu ji
What would he think! if like ostrich if we think there is no danger.


Namaskar Ganeshprasad ji,

Isn't Sattwa ever in danger of being clouded under Rajas and Tamas? It has never been otherwise and it will never be otherwise.



-wat is that we can do, I have no idea, I know problem is big, solution requires calm and determined mind, -

Prhaps we can also try educate our misguided brothers and sisters of other faith that we have our own faith and intellectually they are trying to light a lamp in front of the sun.

Thank you for helping to highlight the point. Does any one know what concrete steps are needed? But can a man avenge the ills by biting a dog back? That way Sattwa is weaker than Tamas. But Sattwa is infinitely stronger. There was a consensus that Coercion must stop. Terrorism must stop. Personally I think that least we can do is to build good opinion, engaging the prominent writers, intellectuals and also all sections of the society.



Regards

Om