Evil force(s) in the universe

[satay]

I thought that as a 300th thread this would be a great topic to discuss...

What is dharma's position on 'evil' in men? We all know that we have evil thoughts...we all know people that have had those thoughts or even acted on those thoughts.

What's the cause of these evil thoughts and actions?

In christianity for example they say 'devil made me do it' what do dharma adherents say? 'my karma made me do it?':naughty:

Is there a force that is at play in the universe that is opposite to what we consider 'good'? What about asuras and devas...are asuras responisbile for these evil forces and thoughts? Are the persons acting in an 'evil' way born with asuric nature? Can this nature be changed or is it inherent from the source and is unchangeble?

What the different viewpoints of dharma schools?

[ramkish42]

Though Evil, Papa, Adharma, Dushta etc are in vogue, to take a philosophical stand point setting aside all religious view, one can find, there is no evil as such.

A man (includes woman) does an act only if he is either deligted in doing it or it is going to benefit him by some means. Many times, he is not aware of hidden package that reaches him through his activity, however, at the time of performance, he foresees that the activity done benefits him in one way or another.

This view is supported by Katopanishad

Sreyascha preyascha manishyametatso samparitya vivinakdhidheerah
Sreyosi dheero api preyoso vrinite preyomande yogagagksheman vrunite

This sloka clearly points out there are only two options to man, one is good (Sreyas) another is pleasant (Preyas). Some pleasant activities is not so very pleasant in long run or not a pleasant activity but presented in disguise, however, at the time of performance it stands as pleasant activity

This sloka further says, Dheera is one who chooses good over pleasant, however, if one chooses pleasant, then there is no limit, he want the entire wordly pleasant things.

Though an activity might be pleasant for one need not to be the same for the other, it carries the tag of Evil, Adharmic etc.

An activity which is good, need not to be pleasant to the very doer, may or may not be pleasant to others, still it does not carries any such negative tags

Though this is not my personal view of things, I prefer to tell this at first count

[Sudarshan]

Nice post Ramkish. evil is only subjective!

[Sudarshan]

In christianity for example they say 'devil made me do it' what do dharma adherents say? 'my karma made me do it?':naughty:


No contradictions. The devil is just another name for Karma, just misunderstood to be a scary monster.;)

[Singhi Kaya]

Like divine, evil is also a mystry of the human mind.
Abrahamism absolutises human psychology and cause further confusion.

Nature/Universe has no evil ~ however we do. And this evil is not permanent (or is an illusion :))

I think working from ego can lead to evil or asurik behaviour.

Two planets have energies which support asurik behaviour (planets are not evil, helping with energy is their job). These are Rahu and Ketu.
Islamic ideology has characteristics of Rahu. Communism is backed by Ketu.

[satay]

Nice posts so far...
Another point is that I have watched myself now for a month being aware of whenever there is a thought that I think is 'evil' or not 'good' e.g. I know backstabbing someone is not 'good' yet there are thoughts of backstabbing others to get ahead in business or whatever venture you are in...what's the source of these thoughts?

If we are 'divine' in nature...first of all why these thoughts and secondly, why is it so hard to control them? sometimes I do wonder if there is absolute good vs. bad at play in the universe like the christians suggest...

ps: no I am not becoming a 'christian' just thinking that they might have a point as far as source of 'evil' thoughts. They have a source identified for it...the rest of the points about how two forces can be at play and who is bigger God or devil is beside the ponit...

[ramkish42]

Like divine, evil is also a mystry of the human mind.
Abrahamism absolutises human psychology and cause further confusion.
Shri Jalasayanan was telling me on the other day about Blind faith and Blinding faith. This seems to be his personal opinion but I think somewhat related to this mystry of human mind

Blind faith is a faith which one reposes on Mother, Father, Guru and God. Though this can be questioned, many a times, one chooses not to. As one can see, when a blind man walks alone, he moves slowly checking for every obstacle on the road, but when a man offers an hand to lead, the blind man walks as fast as the man who has vision and offered his helping hand. Blind man can still question the intention of the help offered, or vision of the person who offers help, but he chooses not. This does not fall into the purview of evil.

Blinding faith on the other hand, has no basis. A faith that blinds a human irrespective of the fact that he can see, is worst. It weaves a web of blinding darkness around the human mind so that no light enters. Men who had such web, webbed around them or webs such web around them, are made blind not for the fact that they are so, but for the reason that there is no light. Often a candle cannot penetrate such blinding web. Many a times it requires tearing apart such web which might be harmful or total mind transformation. However, this blinding faith is otherwise called Evil as it is sure that such blinded person will fall in ditch, but before that he will kick few things on his way. He might choose to kick knowingly if such obstacle is irritating or many times unknowingly.

Once this mystic web of blinding darkness is removed, there exists no so called evil


Two planets have energies which support asurik behaviour (planets are not evil, helping with energy is their job). These are Rahu and Ketu. Islamic ideology has characteristics of Rahu. Communism is backed by Ketu.
New information!

[Sudarshan]

Nice posts so far...
Another point is that I have watched myself now for a month being aware of whenever there is a thought that I think is 'evil' or not 'good' e.g. I know backstabbing someone is not 'good' yet there are thoughts of backstabbing others to get ahead in business or whatever venture you are in...what's the source of these thoughts?


Just a matter of choosing pleasure over good. One should be aware that, whatever you have given out, good or bad, will bounce back to you with same force- not matter whether you pray or cry, and God does not interfere with such Karmic laws. The good given out must be sacrificed to God so that it does not "return" back, which will mean Karma that ensures future birth. The bad must be halted in its tracks.



If we are 'divine' in nature...first of all why these thoughts and secondly, why is it so hard to control them? sometimes I do wonder if there is absolute good vs. bad at play in the universe like the christians suggest...


That is what Dvaitins say, which cannot be so easily dismissed. Bhagavan warns us severly in Gita:(16.19 & 16.20)

Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, I perpetually
cast into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life.

Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, O son of Kunti, such persons
can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of
existence.

There is isn't any fun here, and there is nothing here to suggest that evil is illusory when viewed from the standpoint of Krishna, and he declares that evil doers will be cast to unberable misery by him, much like the Bible God. Whether eternity is involved here is subject to interpretation.

If there is Absolute evil, then it means eternal hell will be there. But to those who think Brahman is the only principle, explaining evil is very tricky and some role in the evil has to fall on the Brahman in this case.

[ramkish42]

To put in the words of Vivekananda

"What is that God who cannot tackle and remove Devil out of this world? I cannot call that a God who is unable to defeat devil once for all"

The concept of Devil is alien to Hinduism as such projecting Devil as an enemy of Lord. On the contrary we have Paishasas, Rakshasas etc who are bound by their own laws, have a separate place to live in and still are devotees of devatas and bound by Karma.

No :6804382843: seen between such creatures and God unless established rules are broken and scriptures always talk about success of Lord and other devatas in establishing the reign of Dharma over broken laws

[satay]

but what's the cause of the 'evil' thoughts to begin with. Am I for example born with them...is that samskara of the soul? is there a separate source for the evil?

We know there is only one source...so evil must come from that source too but then how can evil come from this one all bliss source?

My opinion on this is that evil is caused by ignorance and the soul is stuck in maya. Ego is a big part of the problem...but what's the source of this ego then.

or why did the soul go into 'ignorance' to begin with if it is divine in nature!

[ramkish42]

but what's the cause of the 'evil' thoughts to begin with. Am I for example born with them...is that samskara of the soul? is there a separate source for the evil?

We know there is only one source...so evil must come from that source too but then how can evil come from this one all bliss source?

My opinion on this is that evil is caused by ignorance and the soul is stuck in maya. Ego is a big part of the problem...but what's the source of this ego then.

or why did the soul go into 'ignorance' to begin with if it is divine in nature!

This idea of ignorance or Maya requires lot of purchase in good faith from Advaita. The Maya concept is not fully explained in Advaita beyond doubt by Shri Adisankara Bhagavatpada; those who tried to analyse this Maya, made Advaita propounded by Shri Adisankara Bhagavatpada more confusing than the Philosophy.

To put it short, Evil has no source as there is no such thing as Evil. Evil is darkness, is nothing but absense of Light. If one tries to name this absense of Light as ignorance, then one must realise that such naming is only for identification and not to define the object as such. Like why I being called
Ramkish, just for the name being lingering on, one cannot expect me to be like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, as name is just an identification and not made for defining.

This evil darkness is spelled on Atma not by Maya even if Advaitin view is accepted as Maya is nothing but God himself. If so, Maya being part of Lord, should have a quality of being Krura (Cruel) thus negating the idea of Nirguna Brahman. On the contrary, the evil darkness is spelled by the absense of Light illuminated by Atma by multiple veils of Karma. As the light passes through many shields, its illuminating impact gets reduced, as a result is unable to illuminate the right object, thus making us blind, irrespective of the fact that we have vision.

Now, setting aside all sectarian views, one must either have torch called Dharma to navigate through in the absense of light or should have a yogic vision to see through the feeble light / darkness.

Easy choice is opting Bhakti and Guru. Guru helps us to remove the veils and makes the Atma illuminate. Bhakti helps us to leave it lord and lord guides us through experience

Hence, source of so called Evil is the blinding darkness spread by Veils of Karma obstructing the illumination spread by Atma. There seems to be no separate source of evil / darkness.

If we recognise evil as object existing then source must be ascribed to none other than god, for he is source of all. However, we deny such separate existence, hence source cannot be ascribed to Lord directly. This arises a question, whether can we ascribe it to Lord indirectly?, then the answer is Yes, Indirectly, Lord is source of Karma and Karmic Veil, hence so.

Ego, is part of prakriti in the form of Aham-kara and mama(मम)-kara. This ego is part of creation. Advaitin view this creation as Maya, hence, accepting advaitin view will make your stand point correct. Maya is source of Ego. On the contrary, Vaishnavite view this creation not as a part illusion but as a part of wonderful power of lord that exist begininglessly and endlessly. These two karaka along with triguna result in physical body which is pervaded by Atma, which in turn is pervaded by Lord. As this is part of creation, rejecting ego in toto is very difficult and requires almost equal courage to commit suicide to reject it. Few tastes success but this success is checked and challenged again and again as long as they live in this earth. This Ego in such divine entity transforms as Vairagya. As these two karaka become powerful in combination of triguna; divine entity who are out of purview of this ego, remove the Tamas and Rajo gunanubhava to reject this Ego. In the absense of Tamas and Rajas, Sattva predominantly checks these two karaka, identifying Aham and mama sabda with Lord and not with the Atma. So the so called Ego dissiminates and transforms as Vairagya

Hope I had attempted all your questions but in different order, as time for the day is over, will try to answer any further doubts tomorrow, if such doubts falls within the iota of my knowledge scope

Jai shree krishna

[Sudarshan]

but what's the cause of the 'evil' thoughts to begin with. Am I for example born with them...is that samskara of the soul? is there a separate source for the evil?

We know there is only one source...so evil must come from that source too but then how can evil come from this one all bliss source?

My opinion on this is that evil is caused by ignorance and the soul is stuck in maya. Ego is a big part of the problem...but what's the source of this ego then.

or why did the soul go into 'ignorance' to begin with if it is divine in nature!

The soul never went into ignorance at any point of time - has been like that from an eternal past. You might want to view the soul as divine spark covered by a veil of ignorance. If this were ascribed to a specified time, then it made sense to say that God put that veil. But it has been there since the "beginning" of eternity! How could anyone be responsible then? I guess the answer is known if you could understand the true meanings of eternity, which will mean getting knowledge about the divine. Till then this ignorance will go on.

However, when Sri Krishna says this in Gita:

O Arjuna, as the Supreme One, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know
all living entities; but Me no one knows.(7.26)

- you are pretty much forced to accept that everything we see around is just a well defined divine plan - fully constructed by God skillfully,willfully and to perfection. When God says that there is nothing he does not know about the future - what more do we deduce about own role in anything, including our own goodness, evils and finally salvation?