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ramkish42
14 June 2006, 04:33 PM
This is one more thread I am starting which shall also run parallely along with my visishtadvaita thread, however, this will contain small essays, stories etc towards the purport of Visishtadvaita

If god willing, future moderators, I hope will not treat this section as preaching and ban my ID :D

Baliyasi kevalam ishvarecha

Jai shree krishna

ramkish42
14 June 2006, 04:52 PM
Once upon a time, there lived a Vaishya couples, made for each other.

The man was a good businessman and used to travel abroad for years together, when returns brings such huge sum, which will keep him engaged counting till his next journey

Once, he proposed to go on a business tour for many years. By the time, his wife was at the verge of delievering a baby, however, as the business call was important enough, she had permitted her husband to take the tour.

This man used to keep in touch with his family through messengers and letters, was happy with event that he begot a nice son. He was following the developments, his child started walking, started talking, started running etc.

Soon, his son was mature enough to take business lessons and learned business tricks through his grandfathers and through letter communications from his father.

Like his father, he too purported to go abroad on a business venture.

On a foreign land, our man was unloading few loads of costly materials. Suddenly it started raining. Unlike these days, those days did not court Derricks and vast sheds, but a few plam leaf sheds. As the material was costly our man tried to find a dry shed, of course he got one, but soon enough a small guy came to the same place and started stacking his materials. Both had a fight - who is going stack the material in the place. Both were ready to push off other person materials out of the shed

One of the close friend of our man was passing by, who came to the rescue. He came and told our man that the young guy he was fighting was actually his son, and told the young guy that the person he is fighting with is actually his father.

As this is the first meeting point of father and son, the entire situation changed. Anger vanished, curses failed and arrogance disappeared. Son handed over all his wealth to his father and said "Verily, all this belongs to you", father has accepted it and both of them were at bliss.

This story was told by one of Srivaishnava Perceptor - Shrimad Nanjiyar.

Purport of this story is an analogy offered.

Like father and son in the story, both Lord and Atma comes to one roof called body. Samaanam vruksham parishasvajaathe. This atma comes and stacks his authority over the roof which was preoccupied by Lord and fight saying that this roof belongs to Atma.

Upon this, lord, like father in our story, says Kshibaami, and pushes the atma, through Karma, to multiple births, in turn Atma says, Na kshamaami - I will not tolerate, hence avoids and pushes of the Lord.

As a friend in our story, a guru appears and makes a compromise between Lord and Atma, saying that this is your son and this is your father. He compromies saying that Father is always superior and son is bound be under the father, which is acceptable and nature of Atma.

Upon this, Atma rightly recognises his nature, and seeks refuge under Paramaatma and like the son in our story, offers all his wealth to Lord in toto. Upon this Lord instead of rejecting the Atma, keeps the atma close to him, as a father who sees his son for the first time.

Jai shree Krishna

ramkish42
20 June 2006, 04:47 PM
Krishna, on his avatara, indicated that his body helps for aatma darsana (आत्म दर्शन). While giving Bhagavat Gita discourse to Arjuna, he said – maam ekam charanam vrajeh, by using माम् एकं by touching his aprakruta Deha.

The word maam cannot be taken to indicate only paramaatma swaroopa, at the same time it cannot indicate only his avatara apraakruta deha. It should be indicating both. Swami Sri Desikan while commenting on this commented that Lord indicated that he appeared as target along with Vigraha swaroopa.

In many temples, Vigraha of lord is made with abayahastam, also indicates his vigraha swaroopa by his hands.

In common parlence, where ever the word I, me, अहं, is used, one used to tap their chest indicating none other than I, me, अहं.

This is told by ithanim shrimad azhagiyasingar of ahobilamutt

atanu
25 June 2006, 04:24 AM
Once upon a time, there lived a Vaishya couples, made for each other.

-------.

Purport of this story is an analogy offered.

Like father and son in the story, both Lord and Atma comes to one roof called body. Samaanam vruksham parishasvajaathe. This atma comes and stacks his authority over the roof which was preoccupied by Lord and fight saying that this roof belongs to Atma.

Upon this, lord, like father in our story, says Kshibaami, and pushes the atma, through Karma, to multiple births, in turn Atma says, Na kshamaami - I will not tolerate, hence avoids and pushes of the Lord.

As a friend in our story, a guru appears and makes a compromise between Lord and Atma, saying that this is your son and this is your father. He compromies saying that Father is always superior and son is bound be under the father, which is acceptable and nature of Atma.

Upon this, Atma rightly recognises his nature, and seeks refuge under Paramaatma and like the son in our story, offers all his wealth to Lord in toto. Upon this Lord instead of rejecting the Atma, keeps the atma close to him, as a father who sees his son for the first time.

Jai shree Krishna


The story is good. Shows how the mental concepts control action.

But Atma and Lord fighting is indigestible. Also the Guru seems to be higher than both Atma and Lord. Who is this third person called Guru? Does He exist outside Lord or is He outside Atma --- since there is EKO LORD WITHOUT A SECOND AND EKO ATMA, WHICH IS INDIVISIBLE.


Story is worth remembering forever -- embedded concepts control behaviour. Like the purport of this story indicates.


The true purport is: The wrong sense of AHAM, which thinks that I is the body, is forever in conflict with Atma. There is a corresponding message from Gita that: Self can be an enemy or a friend.



Om Namah Shivayya

ramkish42
25 June 2006, 10:47 AM
The story is good. Shows how the mental concepts control action.

But Atma and Lord fighting is indigestible. Also the Guru seems to be higher than both Atma and Lord. Who is this third person called Guru? Does He exist outside Lord or is He outside Atma --- since there is EKO LORD WITHOUT A SECOND AND EKO ATMA, WHICH IS INDIVISIBLE.

Story is worth remembering forever -- embedded concepts control behaviour. Like the purport of this story indicates.


The true purport is: The wrong sense of AHAM, which thinks that I is the body, is forever in conflict with Atma. There is a corresponding message from Gita that: Self can be an enemy or a friend.

Om Namah Shivayya

Lord and atma fighting is indigetible is true, but it is said in a way to remember the story. The original story was given in a mixture of language i.e. Tamil and Sanskrit, hence to rhyme with some sanskrit endings those words are used

Kshibaami used by lord is used in the sense to indicate Karma and na kshamaami is used in the way to indicate casual approach or negligence on part of jiva

I am just a radio box, and true radio station is the perceptor who has given the story. If the story is good, then it is the radio station that broadcasts perfectly, otherwise all distortions are with the radio set

Jai shree krishna

ramkish42
25 June 2006, 10:50 AM
Just to remind, there are many atmas in visishtadvaita. The idea of only one atma belongs to advaita, hence trying to understand visishtadvaita with the concepts of advaita will lead to confusion

Jai shree krishna

sarabhanga
02 July 2006, 08:27 AM
Just to remind, there are many atmas in visishtadvaita. The idea of only one atma belongs to advaita, hence trying to understand visishtadvaita with the concepts of advaita will lead to confusion.
More correctly ~ the idea of many Atmanah belongs to Samsara; the idea of many immortal Atmanah belongs to Samkhya; and the idea of just one immortal Atma belongs to Vedanta. :1cool:

Sudarshan
04 July 2006, 09:08 AM
More correctly ~
the idea of many Atmanah belongs to Samsara;
the idea of many immortal Atmanah deteched from Brahman belongs to Samkhya;
the idea of many immortal Atmanah attached to Brahman belongs to vedanta;

the idea of just one immortal Atma perhaps belongs to nAstikavAda or shUnyavAda or something else. ( BG 16.14, Isvaroham). Anyway not vedanta.:naughty:

sarabhanga
04 July 2006, 10:34 PM
If you agree that the whole idea of many Atmanah belongs to Samsara, then you agree that the idea of many Atmanah (mortal, immortal, attached, detached, or whatever) belongs to Samsara.

And your statement that “the idea of many … Atmanah … belongs to Vedanta” reflects only the views of Samkhya and Samsara!

The idea of just one immortal Atma surely belongs to Vedanta, and that one immortal Atma is only Brahma!

There is only one true God ~ i.e. there is only one unborn and eternal Atma, and that Atma is Brahma!


The idea of just one immortal Atma perhaps belongs to Nastikavada or Shunyavada … not Vedanta.
By claiming that Brahma is only Shunya, you are surely presenting yourself as a Nastika Shunyavadin!

atanu
07 July 2006, 02:03 AM
If you agree that the whole idea of many Atmanah belongs to Samsara, then you agree that the idea of many Atmanah (mortal, immortal, attached, detached, or whatever) belongs to Samsara.

And your statement that “the idea of many … Atmanah … belongs to Vedanta” reflects only the views of Samkhya and Samsara!

The idea of just one immortal Atma surely belongs to Vedanta, and that one immortal Atma is only Brahma!

There is only one true God ~ i.e. there is only one unborn and eternal Atma, and that Atma is Brahma!


By claiming that Brahma is only Shunya, you are surely presenting yourself as a Nastika Shunyavadin!



So Precise

kd gupta
30 December 2009, 10:28 AM
Parmatma is in the body , but it is other than jeevatma which is basically a part of parmatma . It attains the mukti or moksha when it realizes , Aham Brahmasmi and it occurs when the sixth sense or the third eye opens .
Jeevatma is a part of Parmatma , but it is not in jeevatma similarly as child has the jerms of father but father is not in the child .
After the destruction of universe , prakriti again gives birth to jeevatmas with the help of parmatma , so moksha or mukti is imaginary .
Aham brahmasmi or tattwamasi , therefore every mighty sacred soul like Krsn , Rama etc. all are brahma , but the Almighty is different and is unborn .
To worship that Almighty with provision provided in Vedas is Devotion or Bhakti .
Having all knowledge as per above is Gyan and it is the definition of Vishishta Advaita …….told by a saint .
:)

smaranam
30 December 2009, 12:26 PM
PraNAm Guptaji,

I have some questions about this.


Parmatma is in the body , but it is other than jeevatma which is basically a part of parmatma . It attains the mukti or moksha when it realizes , Aham Brahmasmi and it occurs when the sixth sense or the third eye opens


.
Jeevatma is a part of Parmatma , but it is not in jeevatma similarly as child has the jerms of father but father is not in the child .
After the destruction of universe , prakriti again gives birth to jeevatmas with the help of parmatma , so moksha or mukti is imaginary .
Aham brahmasmi or tattwamasi , therefore every mighty sacred soul like Krsn , Rama etc. all are brahma , but the Almighty is different and is unborn .
To worship that Almighty with provision provided in Vedas is Devotion or Bhakti .
Having all knowledge as per above is Gyan and it is the definition of Vishishta Advaita …….told by a saint .
:)


QN: After pralaya , the transmigrating JIvAtmA (individual) is in 'sankoch' (compressed/consdensed) form , acc. to Ramanujacharya. This is fine, as the transmigrating JIvAtmA has a token - sukshma sharira (subtle body ).

What about the one who has realized Aham Brahmasmi, and not transmigrating any more ? Gets dissolved into ParamAtmA (Supreme Universal Soul) ?

If PRakrti gives 'birth' to JIvAtmAs during sarga (creation) , this is really subtle bodies we are talking about that in turn get embodied. Mukti (liberation) is imaginary provided I identify with one particular JIvAtmA. Which one ? If I do not identify with any one jiva in the true sense , not theoretically, this is mukti, I have lost the jiva connection, and eventually , also the final prArabdha karma.

Who is transmigrating ? has transmigrated ? Or for that matter, who is it that prakrti is giving birth to ? Who got carried over from the last pralay (dissolution) to this sarga (creation ) ? Not me. I am One without a second. I am JIvAtmA as long as i stay attached to the BMI (body-mind-intellect).

Namaste

Terms

JIvAtmA = individual soul
ParamAtmA = Supreme , Universal Soul (God, Brahman, BhagvAn)

sankoch = compress sankuchit = compressed (as a state of the jiva / JIvAtmA)
sarga = creation [ visarga = secondary creation ]
pralay = dissolution , destruction of the material Universe , as part of the cycle

Mukti = liberation from birth and death

Prakrti = Mother Nature, an aspect of the Supreme

kd gupta
31 December 2009, 12:07 AM
Pranam Smaranamji
Answer may be sought in just two shlokas…..

Tasmaat sarveshu kaaleshu maamanusmara yudhya cha;
Mayyarpitamanobuddhir maamevaishyasyasamshayam.
. Therefore, at all times remember Me only and fight. With mind and intellect fixed (or
absorbed) in Me, thou shalt doubtless come to Me alone

Mayaa’dhyakshena prakritih sooyate sacharaacharam;
Hetunaa’nena kaunteya jagadwiparivartate.
. Under Me as supervisor, Nature produces the moving and the unmoving; because of
this, O Arjuna, the world revolves!

I think knowing more than this confuses each and everybody , hence no need to .

smaranam
31 December 2009, 08:35 AM
[COLOR="Navy"] Therefore, at all times remember Me only and fight. With mind and intellect fixed (or
absorbed) in Me, thou shalt doubtless come to Me alone

I think knowing more than this confuses each and everybody , hence no need to .[/FONT][/SIZE]

Pranam

Thank You.

Precisely. That's a very nice verse, and there is no need for confusion.
So being with Him is Mukti , and its not imaginary, on the contrary, its a NO-OP. Of course, it depends on how I look at it, and my definition of mukti.

O Lord (it was hard to NOT write any adjectives for You), You are all there is , this entire blissful existence, All these jivas are my glories,
or I am this jiva that sings His glories.

Either way I am a mukta, thanks to You / Me / You-me , sacchidananda vigraha, sarva-kArana-kAranam, anAdi Adi .....

Om Namo Bhagavate VAsudevAya

kd gupta
31 December 2009, 11:10 AM
May Krsn help You and all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjR6lv0NSfM

smaranam
31 December 2009, 05:45 PM
****karte ho Tum Kanhaiya , mera naam ho raha hai ****

Mera *Aap* ki daya se, sab kaam ho raha hai

*Tum* saath ho jo mere, kis cheej ki kami hai

patwaar ke bina hi , meri naav chal rahi hai


auro ko jo kuch mila apne hi mukaddar se
muze to mera mukaddar bhi *Tere* dar se mila hai

karta nahi mai kuch bhi, sab kaam ho raha hai

****karte ho Tum Kanhaiya , mera naam ho raha hai ****

*Tum* saath ho jo mere , kis cheej ki kami hai

smaranam
01 January 2010, 08:11 AM
Namaste

That was a mesmerizing Bhajan posted by Guptaji (post #15) , the language is Hindi, main lyrics are above (post #16).

What does it say ?

O KanhaiyA (Krshna) , You do everything [silently behind the scenes ] , and people
think i am doing the work.

By Your Grace and kindness, all my work is being done automatically, without any efforts from my side.

My boat has no oars , yet it is sailing along . The world is perplexed at how it is reaching the shore.

People obtain their wishes by destiny, but my destiny i received from Your doorstep,
[in fact You are my destiny].

If You are with me, what can i possibly lack ?

O KanhaiyA (Krshna) , You do everything [silently behind the scenes ] , and people
think i am doing the work.


I am not worthy of You, how can i cross over to your shore ?
How can i sing your glories [ and do justice to them ] in my broken language/speech/words ?


----

The singer & kirtan leader , Aggarwalji in the video, is doing wonders in setting the right mood, and he says ....

Do not be stubborn and say to Krshna, "please come to me playing the flute, in the very form I know as Yours". This is what brings obstacles in your devotion because He really has other plans, may approach you in any form or not, in any way, at any time. Know that all saintly advice and all good that happens is Krshna. In short, its about seeing the Lord's hand in everything.
The incarnations of God also bear hardships while on earth. Even though they could get rid of them easily, they don't , just to teach us - equanimity under difficulties.

Jai Shri Krshna

kd gupta
01 January 2010, 11:34 PM
Vishisht Advaita is knowing the real truth of human life and that has been explained in Vedas . Rishi Valmiki explained in Ramayan that the true translation of Vedas Gyan is Bhakti of Bhagwan Rama . Rishi Vedvyas explained it in Mahabharat AND narrating Gita by Bhagwan Krsn , incarnation of Rama .

This has also been explained in Sribhagwatam that there remained a confusion between Gyan and Bhakti and to emphasize that the true Gyan is Devotion or Bhakti , Vedvyasji narrated the Krsn as supreme , therefore to be more clear about VISHISHTA ADVAITA I quote the following shlokas …

Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate;
Iti matwaa bhajante maam budhaa bhaavasamanvitaah.
I am the source of all; from Me everything evolves; understanding thus, the wise,
endowed with meditation, worship Me.
Macchittaa madgatapraanaa bodhayantah parasparam;
Kathayantashcha maam nityam tushyanti cha ramanti cha.
With their minds and lives entirely absorbed in Me, enlightening each other and always
speaking of Me, they are satisfied and delighted.
Teshaam satatayuktaanaam bhajataam preetipoorvakam;
Dadaami buddhiyogam tam yena maamupayaanti te.10. To them who are ever steadfast, worshipping Me with love, I give the Yoga of
discrimination by which they come to Me.
The devotees who have dedicated themselves to the Lord, who are ever
harmonious and self-abiding, who adore Him with intense love, who are ever devout, obtain the
Divine Grace.
Teshaam evaanukampaartham aham ajnaanajam tamah;
Naashayaamyaatmabhaavastho jnaanadeepena bhaaswataa.
Out of mere compassion for them, I, dwelling within their Self, destroy the darkness
born of ignorance by the luminous lamp of knowledge.

Let me hope that this 2010 turns the hdf to Bhakti Forum . :)

devotee
02 January 2010, 06:53 AM
Namaste Smaranam,

That is really a beautiful bhajan. :)

I heard this bhajan for the first time from my niece but surprisingly it was dedicated to Mother Goddess (Vashno Devi) & not to Krishna ! Difficult to say what is the original version.

Namaste Gupta Ji,


Let me hope that this 2010 turns the hdf to Bhakti Forum.

Not possible. Why ? Because it already is a Bhakti forum ! Only your definition & others' definitions vary.

The need is to change the tainted glass (forgive me, no offence intended) that you are using to judge who a Bhakta is & who is not. God doesn't see such a difference.

Be a Bhakta par excellence ... & for that attain jnaan by reading Vedas / discussing Vedas & seeing God everywhere & in all. Why ? Because Jnani is the best Bhakta of all ! (B.G.)

OM

smaranam
02 January 2010, 02:54 PM
Namaste


it was dedicated to Mother Goddess (Vashno Devi) & not to Krishna ! Difficult to say what is the original version.


I am not surprised :)
Compositions go around in circles, over generations and traditions (parampara).

Technically, Devi Maa is Shakti/Prakrti, so she is actually the doer. Also, like our birth mother wrote the difficult essay or speech for us in school. She always shields devotees with Her veil.

I suppose KanhaiyA does everything in the sense , He takes away drudgery from work, misery from life, makes challenging rocky roads appear smooth, and basically diverts attention from the mundane to Him. After all, He is Hari - He who takes away miseries, karma and brings pleasure.

That being said, Krshna has also been a Mother to me.

Also , stare at Him long enough and one sees Radha.

Tvam eva mAtA ca pitA Tvam eva
Tvam eva bandushca sakhA Tvam eva
Tvam eva vidya , dravinam Tvam eva
Tvam eva sarvam mama Deva Deva

You alone are the mother, You alone are the father
You alone are my brother/sister, You alone are my friend and Dearest
You alone are my knowledge and my wealth
You are everything to me, You are my Supreme Lord.

-----




Be a Bhakta par excellence ... & for that attain jnaan by reading Vedas / discussing Vedas & seeing God everywhere & in all. Why ? Because Jnani is the best Bhakta of all ! (B.G.)

OM

Adi Shankara and others did not mention Bhakti while sorting out Karma and Jnana milestones - because they assumed Bhakti as an inherent part of the seeker/process and also a prerequisite.

Author Nagesh Vasudev Gunaji - in his Gita commentary (my first Bhagavad Gita) - writes -

"Karma, Jnana and Bhakti are not seperate paths at all.
Wasn't Shankaracharya, the preacher of Jnana Yoga, a Karma Yogi and a Bhakta ?
Wasn't the Yogi , Sant Dnyaneshwar a Bhakta ? {I thought he was a Jnani too}
Wasn't VAman Pandit, preacher of Saguna Bhakti , a Jnani ?

Flapping one wing of Karma and the other wing of Bhakti, propelled by the tail of Jnana , the jiva bird gains height and reaches ParamAtmA"

I suppose this calls for a definition of Bhakti ?

kd gupta
06 January 2010, 11:35 AM
Flapping one wing of Karma and the other wing of Bhakti, propelled by the tail of Jnana , the jiva bird gains height and reaches ParamAtmA"

Yes Smaranamji
This is the shloka of your quote…..

Matam vishishtadvaitam me golokodham [ akshardham ] chepsitam ,
Tatra brahmatmana krsnseva MUKTISHCHA gamyatam .

And Devoteeji
You are right , this does not need the glass and is as transparent as gyan provided no maya intercepts .