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bhargavsai
20 September 2008, 07:48 AM
One of the most rising doubts in my mind is: What is the reason for creation of the world? I have read many theories etc, but i am not convinced.

I would like you people to write what you believe is the reason for creation...

Sudarshan
20 September 2008, 10:47 AM
ichchAmAtraM prabhossR^ishTiriti

Creation is the will of God. The cause? I dont know, how can we speculate on the mind of the being who is outside of space and time? Every theory is just man's imagination.

If the world were full of brahmAnanda I would have said that Brahman did it for pleasure. But who will bother to create a world of misery especially when God is all powerful and all knowing? So the creation mystery is more deeper than we will ever understand with our limited capacity. When you mature to the level of God you can understand the secrets!

bhargavsai
20 September 2008, 08:03 PM
But as long as we know the cause for creation How can we justify this act of creation, I say that people are suffering here terribly and still people say that God is merciful or loving etc etc.

I read Ramana Maharshi and he says reason for creation is that Creation is God's Lila(Hobby), and how can a sane individual create a world full of suffering for his hobby?

Sudarshan
21 September 2008, 03:29 AM
See it this way.

From God's angle ( who is beyond time) no changes are percived to happen. A human being might wonder what will happen tomorrow but such future events have already happened for God due to his omniscience. There is no point in blaming God for miseries because creating this world constitutes the very nature of Brahman. Brahman creates because it is his nature to create just like it is the nature of the fire to be hot. Would you complain to the fire that it is hot?

But is the fire hot to the fire itself? Nobody is harmful to himself. You are suffering because you think you are separate from the Lord. Once you know you are the fire, your own heat wil not bother you. But as long as you think you are different from the Lord, its fiery nature ( in the form of mAyA) is indeed very hot. There is really no way but to submit to the Lord to be kind to us and save us from his own power. Even the diabolic Gods presented by the Abrahamic religions are not untruth but they present only half the picture. God is indeed terrible in his mAyA aspect - he is DEATH itself in the form of time. Those who dont bow to this force will be blown to pieces. But always remember the subtle truth - there is nothing exterior to the Lord and all his actions are always fully jusitified and he has no accountability.

Ask God if he created all this intentionally. He will reply that he never saw anything external to himself, what to speak of miseries! Learn to enjoy this leela of God and life will be much smoother to live. We are privileged beings to be part of this leela and should stop complaining about God and instead strive to know the real truth.

bhargavsai
21 September 2008, 08:47 AM
Thank you Sudarshan ji for your kind and wise words.

I am not suffering, I am trying to realize the truth. But truly your answer has satisfied my mind, and I hope to continue searching for truth in me. But the problem is that I am happy, but there are crores of people who are ignorant of this and are sad and suffering. What if only I get liberation? There will still be crores of them suffering, what I want is that they should be liberated from suffering...

Pranams
Om Namaha Shivaya.

Sudarshan
21 September 2008, 10:10 AM
Millions before us have felt deep sympathy for others and have expressed their desire for the liberation of all. It is a good feeling.

But when they get enlightened they find that no one is in bondage - all this is mere play of time! They only find that the Self has decorated itself in many ways and it is in no need of help.

And for those who are apparently bounded there is God to take care of them. Do you think he will desert anyone - how could he do that to those who were born of him?

saidevo
21 September 2008, 12:37 PM
Namaste Bhargavsai.

RamaNa Maharshi echoed the teaching of Brahma Sutra Bashya of Adi Sankaracharya, when he said that Creation is God's lIlA (sport, play).

Looking it up, I find that the logic discussed in the BSB verses II.i.31 to 33 is somewhat in these lines:

Q: The Upanishads reveal that Brahman, the Supreme God is possessed of all powers. How can and why should a God possessed of all powers create a world of good and bad, happiness and misery? In other words, what is God's motive for such a defective Creation?

A: God has indeed no motive for Creation. It is 'lokavattu lIlAkaivalyam', that is, a sport or play like what is seen in this world, played with 'kaivalya', perfect isolation, abstraction, detachment and eternal happiness.

All the meanings of the term 'lIlA' fit in nicely here: sport, game, pastime, play (drama):

• it is sport because Brahman has desired to exert and know himself;

• it is game in the sense of playing for recreation, amusement; as a test of skill for endurance (as in 'the game of life'); as a project, scheme, plan (as in 'it is difficult to see through God's game);

• it is passtime because, with Brahman's first thought of creation, the concept of time has set in, giving a limit to every activity;

• it is play (drama) because, like the author of the play or a work of fiction, in one sense, God does not involve Himself in the play of circumstances and action between the characters--only witnesses it all to work out to a finish. In another sense, like the author, God is the be-all of all the characters and circumstances involved in the play because there is nothing external to the author in his/her creation (because everything happened within the author's own mind, though manifested on print).

Q: The 'world' populated in God's play of Creation is obviously full of misery and suffering for most people. Won't this make Him responsible for partiality and cruelty?

A: It would not because God did not create it autocratically, totally disregarding other factors. On the other hand, he completely lets these other factors come into play in the life of the characters he has created, thus setting the rules of the play. The 'other factors' include karma, desire and will of the individual characters.

In conclusion, we may ask: if Creation and the World is only in God's mind, and must be an illusion to us, what is the purpose of our life--why are we created at all?

The answer could be that the purpose is to know and realize the Self, the divinity of God immanent in us, so it will become easy to understand life. For those who cannot do it in this birth, life would be a serial play/novel/film.

The people in the world created by a human author has no way of knowing their creator, though he/she is in everyone of them. The world they live in is all that is there to them. In the case of the work of creation of this world, the author is God, He is in every atom of it, and hence every person is provided with the faculty of Self-Realization.

bhargavsai
21 September 2008, 08:55 PM
Thank You Saidevo sir.

But initially there would be no karma to any soul isn't it? Then every soul commits the acts according to the gunas given to it by God, so indirectly God only creates Karma isn't it?

saidevo
21 September 2008, 10:54 PM
Namaste Bhargavsai.



But initially there would be no karma to any soul isn't it? Then every soul commits the acts according to the gunas given to it by God, so indirectly God only creates Karma isn't it?


First off, please do not address me as 'sir'. I am an ordinary soul, far less familiar with the scriptures (let alone profiency) than many members here, and way behind in the path towards Self-Realization. If my 'repu points' give a contrary indication, it is perhaps due to the 'catchy presentation' of my posts!

I think our scriptures don't say anything about the 'first karma' of jIvas, except that karma (and avidyA) are beginningless. It is not like the 'original sin' of Christianity that Adam and Eve incurred by eating the fruit from the 'tree of knowledge' in the Garden of Eden. (Interestingly, all the worldly knowledge of good and bad, sin and virtue and physical life in general, obtained by humans by eating the fruit is considered 'knowledge' in Christianity, whereas to us Hindus, it is all 'avidyA' and 'mAyA'!)

Sarabhanga said in one of the forums here that the original karma was Brahman's 'kAmA' (desire) to multiply. This might perhaps be understood as follows:

In Theosophy, Logos (Brahman) has three Aspects: Will, Wisdom and Activity. They represent the Trinity of the Logos: Shiva, VishNu and BrahmA for Hindus. Life was we know here in the universe was created in three Great Waves (or Outpourings) of Life.

• When the Logos sets about creation of the universe, it sends the first wave using its Aspect of Activity (BrahmA) and creates the seven planes and the atoms of matter in each plane.

• When this groundwork is done, the second life wave arising out of the Aspect of Wisdom (VishNu) takes over. This wave descends the planes successively in its downward curve, creating a heterogeneity of finer and finer life forms, permeating and imbuing them with the energy of wisdom. After passing the nadir of the gross plane, this wave ascends, reversing the process of division and bring an ever-increasing homogenuity of life-forms.

• Finally, when VishNu has done his work of permeating and energizing the forms, the third life wave, using the Aspect of Will (Shiva) takes over and ensouls the forms with the divine spark of Self and set in them in their course of life.

According to our Puranas, a soul has to undergo 1,84,000 births in its normal cycle from the first birth to ultimate liberation. Of these thousands of births, many would have been in the lower forms of life in the mineral, vegetable and animal kingdoms of nature. Therein perhaps lies the answer for the first seeds of karma gathered before a soul takes its first human birth.

Raindrops are divinity at their core but depending on where they fall, they become rivers, ponds, lakes, drainages or just disappear in the soil. In the same way, perhaps, Brahman's sparks of life fall on different forms of matter and acquire karma, which start fructifying once the soul takes a human birth.

Sudarshan
22 September 2008, 05:21 AM
According to our Puranas, a soul has to undergo 1,84,000 births in its normal cycle from the first birth to ultimate liberation. Of these thousands of births, many would have been in the lower forms of life in the mineral, vegetable and animal kingdoms of nature. Therein perhaps lies the answer for the first seeds of karma gathered before a soul takes its first human birth.


Namaste saidevo,

You are called 'sir' because people respect your age, wisdom and humility.

Do you know which purANa talks about 1,84,000 births? I have heard atleast three versions of it but I could never locate it in any of the purANa recensions I have with me.

However I have heard about three figures - 1,84,000 , 8.4 million and another account that said 9 crores. How do you think any finite number is compatible with beginningless avidyA and karma?

It is probably not necessary for everyone to have been born in lower forms because the initial phase of creation started with devas and rishis who rarely come down to our level of existance. It is even difficult to concieve how the one Brahma( who alone existed in the beginning) who is an embodiment of wisdom could give rise to such lowly forms of life which have so much ignorance.

I was surprised to see the nADi grantha of one person where it said - This is the first and last birth of this person. While nADi granthAs are not authoritative this particular nADi made some extraordinary predictions about this individual which are generally known only to the person himself. So I did not know whether to believe in this claim. If there are first births for any of us, the very theories of karma come under serious questioning. Naturally the buddhists believe that all of us have born an infinite number of times from beginningless time!!

bhargavsai
22 September 2008, 10:01 AM
Saidevo Ji, I called you sir because you are elder to me. And you are wise.

bhargavsai
22 September 2008, 10:02 AM
Saidevo ji, wise answer.

You cleared my doubt that Karmas are without beginning and endless. But Sudarshan Ji has a valid doubt there, that a person who has taken his first birth, from where does his Karma come?

Consider an Avataar, he does not have any Karma isn't it? But still he suffers, like Ramakrishna Paramahansa, he had to suffer Cancer. So can something which is not Karma happen. And as Sudarshan Ji said is not Karma theory contradicting itself sometimes?

Pranaams
Om Namaha Shivaya

atanu
22 September 2008, 11:45 AM
But as long as we know the cause for creation How can we justify this act of creation, I say that people are suffering here terribly and still people say that God is merciful or loving etc etc.

I read Ramana Maharshi and he says reason for creation is that Creation is God's Lila(Hobby), and how can a sane individual create a world full of suffering for his hobby?

Namaste Bhargavsai,

Ramana Maharshi replied according to the need of the questioner. If you read further you will find that He said that actually nothing whatsoever has been created.

Further, to the question: "how can a sane individual create a world full of suffering for his hobby?", He would ask "Who is saying that the created world is full of suffering? Is the God saying so or you are saying so?"

Further, He would ask you to enquire why in deep sleep you did not perceive the suffering but why you perceive it in waking period? Has the perceiving person changed?"

Sudarshan has given nearly a complete answer. I will add that creation is in the domain of Mind, whereas God is beyond mind. Ego (the false association of "I awareness" with accumulated accretions such as mental thoughts and flesh) perceives pain. In sleep, the Ego is minimal and there is no pain. And in sleep there is no desire also. All pain to self or to other selves are perceived due to the wrong association alone. For example when you believe yourself to be the body which owns something, there will be great pain on loss of that something. But if you knew that you were limitless and all-pervasive spirit, as you are in deep sleep, and the possessions are not related to actual you (but only to the accretion called mind) would you grieve?

Creation and enjoyment of happiness and sorrow is at Guna level. Shri Krishna teaches that sense organs sieze their respective objects but Atma is untouched. Knowing firmly oneself as Atma and not as a bundle of accretions created by mind and sense organs leads to the knowledge "There is no creation."


Om

saidevo
22 September 2008, 08:48 PM
Namaste Bhargavsai.



Saidevo Ji, I called you sir because you are elder to me. And you are wise.


Can you be sure of that? The lifetime of a soul does not begin and end with this birth. So there is a strong possibility that you might as well be elder to me, if we measure our times from the first incarnation of our jIvas. (At least in this way I might feel more youthful than I do.:))

In the messages we post here at HDFpuri, we play the role of guru and shiShya: when we have a POV that throws more light on a relative truth, we play the role of guru, of shiShya at other times. All of us thus are at the same level, so:

AUM sahana vavatu sahanau bhunaktu
sahavIryam karavavahai
tejas vinavati tamastuma vidhvishavahai
AUM shAnti shAnti shAntiH

Together may be be protected.
Together may we be nourished.
Together may we work with great energy.
May our journey together be brilliant and effective.
May there be no bad feelings between us.
Peace, peace, peace.

(From the Katha Upanishad)

TatTvamAsi
23 September 2008, 12:07 AM
Namaste Sudarshan,

I believe the 8.4 million number comes from the Srimad Bhagavatam which states that there are those many life forms in this period of manifestation! As for the 184,000 births, I am not sure as this is the first time I am hearing that number. From an objective standpoint, the specificity with which some of these statements are made (by the Scriptures) makes it very difficult to 'accept' as the question 'why' always arises. Why not 185,000 instead of 184,000? Anyway, that question of the first birth's karma has always intrigued me but people like Ramana Maharishi have said, depending on the questioner, that there are no births! This is obviously hard to grasp as our sense of individuality is still very strong and very much apparently alive; unfortunately I suppose. :D

Anyway, these are fascinating discussions and I am awaiting both your, Atanu's, & Saidevo's responses regarding this matter.

Subham.


Namaste saidevo,

You are called 'sir' because people respect your age, wisdom and humility.

Do you know which purANa talks about 1,84,000 births? I have heard atleast three versions of it but I could never locate it in any of the purANa recensions I have with me.

However I have heard about three figures - 1,84,000 , 8.4 million and another account that said 9 crores. How do you think any finite number is compatible with beginningless avidyA and karma?

It is probably not necessary for everyone to have been born in lower forms because the initial phase of creation started with devas and rishis who rarely come down to our level of existance. It is even difficult to concieve how the one Brahma( who alone existed in the beginning) who is an embodiment of wisdom could give rise to such lowly forms of life which have so much ignorance.

I was surprised to see the nADi grantha of one person where it said - This is the first and last birth of this person. While nADi granthAs are not authoritative this particular nADi made some extraordinary predictions about this individual which are generally known only to the person himself. So I did not know whether to believe in this claim. If there are first births for any of us, the very theories of karma come under serious questioning. Naturally the buddhists believe that all of us have born an infinite number of times from beginningless time!!

Sudarshan
23 September 2008, 01:27 AM
Saidevo ji, wise answer.

You cleared my doubt that Karmas are without beginning and endless. But Sudarshan Ji has a valid doubt there, that a person who has taken his first birth, from where does his Karma come?

Consider an Avataar, he does not have any Karma isn't it? But still he suffers, like Ramakrishna Paramahansa, he had to suffer Cancer. So can something which is not Karma happen. And as Sudarshan Ji said is not Karma theory contradicting itself sometimes?

Pranaams
Om Namaha Shivaya

An avatAra only appears to suffer. But the avatAra himself is never in pain because he has no body consciousness. Did Ramakrishna Paramahansa tel you that he was suffering? His body ( as seen by the world) suffered, but the spirit never suffers.


Our case is different. Each of our activities must be a result of a previous karma only. The only problem it runs into is that its beginning is very mysterious. It is difficult to resolve it except by saying that it is beginningless which appears equally illogical because that would mean that we have taken an infinite number of births already! We could say that God gave us the first karma but this is also unsatisfactory because it was quite needless to put us in this condition. So the karma theory has its own chicken-egg problem. Without karma there is no birth and without birth there is no karma. Go figure!

Though the scripture may give a figure for the number of births, I believe that it is quite random, and I do not really believe that everyone will require that. If we really strive hard enough, we could be liberated in this very birth or in a matter of a few more- such is the story of great sages. If you are overtly materialistic, lazy or insincere then you may have to keep taking birth for ever...the huge numbers are really for only such people.

bhargavsai
23 September 2008, 09:59 AM
Well Said Saidevo Ji. Yeah, as souls we are having no age.

And Atanu Ji you have said that Creation is only a mind product, and I feel that it is very true. Creation is not there in sleep, but thoughts create the world. I have one more doubt... For creation we need a mind, where did this mind rise from? Who created it?


Sudarshan Ji, even I wonder that these figures are for material minded people. Wise people realize soon that they are free. I have read "Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj" say that Karma Law contradicts itself http://www.celextel.org/otherbooks/iamthat.html, and wonder is it just our mind which thinks that one is effected by Karma?

saidevo
23 September 2008, 09:01 PM
Namaste Sudarshan, Bhargavsai and others.

The mysterious count of 1,84,000 births or transmigrations for a soul

The figure of 84 lakh (8.4 million) species (or yonis), as TatTvamAsi has pointed out, occurs in Srimad Bhagavatam. Just as you say, I too can't find an exact reference to the figure 1,84,000, though I am sure of having heard it.



Do you know which purANa talks about 1,84,000 births? I have heard atleast three versions of it but I could never locate it in any of the purANa recensions I have with me.

However I have heard about three figures - 1,84,000 , 8.4 million and another account that said 9 crores.


1. I quoted the figure 1,84,000 births from my memory of having come across it somewhere. However, I did do a google search for the figure before posting, and it gave me this link:

http://www.cheharmaa.com/photos/goraksh_chalisa.doc
http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:EFgvONhRve4J:www.cheharmaa.com/photos/goraksh_chalisa.doc+%22mythology%22+%221,84,000%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=opera

In the 'Shri Goraksh Chalisa' published in the Website, the figure occurs in the explanation to ths verse:

"AJAR AMAR TUM HO AVINASHI, KATO JANA KI LAKH CHOURASI |
TAPA KATHORE HAI ROZE TUMHARA, KO JANA JANEY PAR APAARA ||

Not subject to age, you are unchanging, everyouthful and immortal. Please stop the cycle of births and deaths (according to hindu mythology beings have to go through the suffering of 1,84,000 births and deaths before the soul attains nirvana). To practice your austerities everyday is very difficult, but those who succeed become unsurpassed, unbounded yogis."

I presumed, based on this indication, that there must be some reference somewhere, though I could not find it. This number did not bother me, however, because the point I was making was dependent on innuerable births, and a figure was just a convenient visual aid.

2. There is another reference to his figure: "Folk Lore Notes - Google Books Result" - http://books.google.com/books?id=eRkuXFD93zsC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=%22tiiephcra%22&source=web&ots=_1RwwjqedU&sig=nozzfwuRDjUfXrHz2wY7O6oht8o&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

This book has a mention in a footnote to page 12: "Hindus believe that a soul has to go through a lakh and eighty-four transmigrations before it attains final emancipation. The cycle of 1,84,000 births is called tiiephcra of lakh — choryasi.— KD Desai"

3. A third reference, supposed to be in 'Panchatantra' quotes a round figure of 100,000:

"The pampered sensualist returned a beggar; the proud oppressor, a slave ; the selfish woman of fashion, a seamstress. A turn of the wheel gave a chance for the development of neglected or abused intelligence and feeling, hence the popularity of reincarnation in all climes and times. . . . thus the expurgation of evil was . . . gradually but certainly accomplished." Verily "an evil act follows a man, passing through one hundred thousand transmigrations" (Panchatantra)." -- http://www.experiencefestival.com/kapila_dictionary/page/3

Could there be a relation between the two numbers 84,00,000 and 1,84,000? A simple arithmetic division yields 45.65217. Are any elements of time, space and astrology involved in these two numbers and the other numbers of various species mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam?

What could it mean: that karma and advidyA are beginningless?



How do you think any finite number is compatible with beginningless avidyA and karma?


I think the figures of species and transmigrations given in our Puranas may not be arbitrary. Srimad Bhagavatam primarily speaks about Creation, or rather Re-Creation done by VishNu and BrahmA for the current 'kalpa', which is the Sveta Varaha Kalpa. A 'kalpa' of time is a day of Brahma, who lives for a thousand divine years or 360,000 such days. While Brahma creates the Kumaras in his first 'kalpa' (called the 'Brahma Kalpa') and lets them exist all through his life, he creates all other beings and worlds for each 'kalpa'.

Puranas compiled by Maharshi Vyasa are meant only for this Kali Yuga. It is possible that they were more elaborate in the foregone three Yugas. Moreover, we don't have the Vedas in their entirety. Perhaps the texts relevant to the other Yugas and the missing portions of the Vedas have reference to the origin of karma and avidhyA. The expression that they are 'beginningless' might be relevant only to Kali Yuga, or at the most to Brahma's 'today' (our current 'kalpa') because the souls had their carried over karmas from the previous kalpas playing out in their life during the current 'kalpa'.

It is also possible that our Brahma may not be the only Brahma. There might be other Brahmas operating concurrently in other universes and Brahmas who lived in the past. It is also possible that souls of this universe take birth in other universes and vice versa. Therefore the expression that Karma and avidyA are beginningless (in that they are unknown) might have arisen, in my opinion.



It is probably not necessary for everyone to have been born in lower forms because the initial phase of creation started with devas and rishis who rarely come down to our level of existance.


This is true, Sudarshan, but Brahma must have created beings in lower forms too, isn't it? That is, Shiva's sparks of life must have fell on the lower forms of life and activated them with consciousness.

Even if we consider the devas and rishis Brahma created initially, I don't know if the devas are capable of generating/experiencing karma (I think they do), but the rishis--Brahma's 'manasa putras' (mind-born sons) themselves--might be considered to have started and activated the thread of karma in their lives and the lives of their progeny, once they entered into married life, because samsAra (World-Process) is based on worldly desire, which in turn, generates karma! Thus, except for the Sanat Kumaras, I think, all the other rishis who entered into married life, voluntarily undertook upon themselves, to be part of the introduction of karma in the very first 'kalpa' of their coming into existence. Besides, Brahma himself, took many bodies to create different human, asuric and other species of higher life.

Looking at the angle of the physical science, we might say that the first humans on earth generated karma when they had their first kill of a bird or animal, and when they desired to procreate.

Thus, it is almost impossible to pinpoint the time and circumstances when the first seeds of karma were generated, and therefore, might have arisen the expression that 'karma and avidyA are beginningless.'

Finally, the nADi granthas don't predict the lives of humans in the lower forms, during which time they might have accumulated their karma. Besides, the term 'karma' primarily means 'action' the cause that precedes the effect, e.g., the term 'karma kANDam' in the Vedas. Thus, any action that is not in harmony with nature, is capable of generating karma.

saidevo
23 September 2008, 10:05 PM
Namaste Bhargavsai.



And Atanu Ji you have said that Creation is only a mind product, and I feel that it is very true. Creation is not there in sleep, but thoughts create the world. I have one more doubt... For creation we need a mind, where did this mind rise from? Who created it?


Creation as a mind product, ajAtivAda, is an advanced concept of Absolute Reality, and could be experienced only by the jnAnis. The main difficulty for us to perceive it even theoretically is that the world of our existence in the waking state seems so objective--and identical--that we cannot believe it to be maya. Though Reality is the one that exists unchanged in all the three states of our existence, and that Reality is the mindless, peaceful and blissful existence in deep sleep, we experience much less of it as the substratum in the agitated dream state, and far less of it in the hullabaloo of the waking state, which is perhaps why the difficulty in identifying with the concept of ajAtivAda, though it might well be the nearest to the Truth.

Srimad Bhagavatam says that it is VishNu who creates the 'mahat tattva' in the first phase of Creation, which is the root of 'manas-buddhi-ahamkAra-chitta' (mind-intellect-ego-memory storehouse).



I have read "Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj" say that Karma Law contradicts itself ... and wonder is it just our mind which thinks that one is effected by Karma?


It is alright to think that karma is just in our mind, so long as the mind is in control to avoid initiating action that disturbs our harmony with nature. Since the flow of action is 'mano-vAkku-kAyam' (mind-word-deed), if we blindly believe that karma exists only in our mind, so whatever we do shall not affect our Self, we will only be plunging more into ignorance.

Sublime statements of truth from the 'jnAnis' in my opinion, are more by way of explanation of their own state of Self-Realization than a precept for the unrealized to follow in letter and spirit. There is no shortcut to Self-Realization or burning out all our (bad as well as good) karma. The path to Self-Realization is highly personal and individualistic.
===

atanu
24 September 2008, 08:54 AM
Namaste Friends

On Beginningless Karma and Ignorance

Brahma Sutra begins with: From Brahman proceeds the acts of creation, maintenance, and destruction. For a single Atman-Brahman, creation involves creating a Second first and this act involves a Mithya.

Moreover, both Shankara and Ramanujarya hold Ignorance/Karma to be beginningless. Since Brahman is beginningless so the potential Karma/ignorance (products of simple existence of the existent) are beginningless. But a mAnas extinguishes the karma/ignorance as soon as all desires responsible for existence of that mAnas are exhausted.

On some crores of incarnations

As the figures vary from source to source, we may not need to be unduly worried about the number.

The pertinent question is "Who has taken birth?"


And Atanu Ji you have said that Creation is only a mind product, and I feel that it is very true. Creation is not there in sleep, but thoughts create the world. I have one more doubt... For creation we need a mind, where did this mind rise from? Who created it?

Namaste Bhargavsai

Upanishads very clearly state: There is no other Seer but Him. There is no other Knower but Him. There is no doubt that God is the revealer of revealed Pragnya Ghana (pure intelligence unbroken by thought) that is controller -- Sarvesvara. No one created it. It is concurrect with Brahman. It is a state of Brahman. It is nature of Brahman. When He folds it within, destruction is said to occur. When He allows it to roam and play with objects, creation is said to occur. Mind is pure Sattwa and inwardly it is same as Brahman-Atman.



It is alright to think that karma is just in our mind, so long as the mind is in control to avoid initiating action that disturbs our harmony with nature. Since the flow of action is 'mano-vAkku-kAyam' (mind-word-deed), if we blindly believe that karma exists only in our mind, so whatever we do shall not affect our Self, we will only be plunging more into ignorance.

Sublime statements of truth from the 'jnAnis' in my opinion, are more by way of explanation of their own state of Self-Realization than a precept for the unrealized to follow in letter and spirit. There is no shortcut to Self-Realization or burning out all our (bad as well as good) karma. The path to Self-Realization is highly personal and individualistic.

Namaste saidevoji,

I agree but for a small point. Our scriptures do urge us to imbibe the teachings by way of shravana, manana etc. If one does not progress in the path with understanding then it may lead to parochialism.

When the questions relate to any other matter than pain or unhappiness, then the teachings that invoke God as a separate entity should work. But since Upanishad says "There is fear when there is another" and "There is no happiness in the limited", the queries in respect of happiness and horrors of this world (that indicate approaching vairagya), should be helped by Upanishads the best. This is my POV. I agree fully that Self-Realization is highly personal and individualistic.

Regards to all.

Om Namah

saidevo
25 September 2008, 01:05 AM
Namaste Atanu.

Nice to see you posting amidst your busy office work. I have always admired your nature of taking to and expounding the highest truth of Advaita, whatever the circumstances, in your messages. There is no inquiry beyond 'Who am I?', though not everyone (and that includes me) are presently capable of it, meditatively, in a sustained manner.

As you have rightly understood, my point in opining that a jnAni's statement such as that of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj that the law of karma contradicts itself can't be understood in the right perspective by people at all levels of spiritual advancement. Some people might think that since a jnAni of Sri Nisargadatta has stated it, the law of karma should be wrong. Our friend Bhargavsai's understanding karma as a mind product is right of course at its core, but to make it serve practically, a person should have done some intense sAdhana. A person groomed in the doctrines of western religions might interpret this statement that since karma is only a mind product, it is only an illusion to think that it affects practical life, and so a person might do whatever he/she wants--like our friend Sri Jaggin said the other day: "No sin can keep us from Heaven."

I would always subscribe and try to contemplate on the highest truth of the Self, though there is this compulsion to live the life in Dvaita and be prepared for at least a few more births. So I would request you to always call arguments of duality to question and state the ultimate reality of the Self, as a course correction in our path to Self-Realization.

atanu
25 September 2008, 02:49 AM
Namaste Atanu.

Nice to see you posting amidst your busy office work. I have always admired your nature of taking to and expounding the highest truth of Advaita, whatever the circumstances, in your messages. There is no inquiry beyond 'Who am I?', though not everyone (and that includes me) are presently capable of it, meditatively, in a sustained manner.

As you have rightly understood, my point in opining that a jnAni's statement such as that of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj that the law of karma contradicts itself can't be understood in the right perspective by people at all levels of spiritual advancement. Some people might think that since a jnAni of Sri Nisargadatta has stated it, the law of karma should be wrong. Our friend Bhargavsai's understanding karma as a mind product is right of course at its core, but to make it serve practically, a person should have done some intense sAdhana. A person groomed in the doctrines of western religions might interpret this statement that since karma is only a mind product, it is only an illusion to think that it affects practical life, and so a person might do whatever he/she wants--like our friend Sri Jaggin said the other day: "No sin can keep us from Heaven."

I would always subscribe and try to contemplate on the highest truth of the Self, though there is this compulsion to live the life in Dvaita and be prepared for at least a few more births. So I would request you to always call arguments of duality to question and state the ultimate reality of the Self, as a course correction in our path to Self-Realization.

Namaste saidevoji,

Nice to be able to interact with you again. There are very valid reasons why participants here address you as Sir.

On account of relocation to a new place, the circumstances during the last three months, in personal front and the society have been testing. From a placid environment, where characters in my surrounding were characters from the Veda, this body-mind has been thrown in a chaotic sea. In my earlier place, my food caretakers were Parvati and Annavaram. Financial caretaker was Keshav. And office boss was Devendra. And the Ashrama of the Guru was near. It was a perfect vedic setting, though Devendra was quite often very tough.

The new place is far from placid. For last three months, it seemed that i was fending on its own. And it had to solve a lot of problems. In the mean while, the environment also saw a lot of mindless and cowardly violence.

But, then when the problems ebb away, the light seems to shine. During the problem (for an ignorant mind like me), the problems are so real and painful. In the dramas called waking and dreaming states, the "I" (Pragnya Ghana Sarvesvara) is the director, plays a character, and also is the Seer. Sometimes the character passes through rough patches -- say for example, gets beaten up by villains or loses all possessions etc. Like, in films or in dramas that humans create, an actor who has got an insignificant role or a bad role can appeal and request the director to change things favourably, similarly we have the freedom to pray to Pragnya Ghana sarvesvara.

The main point is that Pragnya Ghana is the essence of "I am this". He is the "I am" in "I am this". He is the inner essence of this character. He is my own full Pragnya -- when unbroken by any thought. We can all pray to Him, till He whispers something in our ears regarding the real "I".

Om Namah Shivaya

bhargavsai
25 September 2008, 07:44 AM
Oh, then Karmic Law is inevitable isn't it? Yogananda says that a person who realizes the Self cannot be affected by Karmic Law, because he is not the body-mind complex anymore, other than that Karma works isn't it?

Om Namaha Shivaya

atanu
26 September 2008, 01:45 AM
Oh, then Karmic Law is inevitable isn't it? Yogananda says that a person who realizes the Self cannot be affected by Karmic Law, because he is not the body-mind complex anymore, other than that Karma works isn't it?

Om Namaha Shivaya

Namaste Bhargavasai,

That's true. Karmic law is inevitable for the causal, mental and physical bodies.

Om

bhargavsai
26 September 2008, 08:00 AM
Thanks to all the wise people who have given great answers.

Pranaam
Om Namaha Shivaya.