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reflections
24 September 2008, 04:57 AM
Namaste,
This is a long post. Please bear with me. I have a friend who belongs to a small village, he is very intelligent and made has made a good progress in his life. But, I was shocked by some of his attitudes. Please see our conversation.

he: I don't like new policies where education is accesible to all.
Our toilet cleaner's sons are having good jobs, so the mother have stopped working as a toiler cleaner.

me: Isn't that good?

he: No, but initially they were polite and always sat on the floor when they come to home as guests. Now they have started sitting on Chairs.

me: who so ever comes to my place receives a good hospitality. Why should a lower caste person should not sit on the chair?

he: Yes, but toilet cleaning, garbage collection etc. are also tasks to be done, and who will do that?

me: come on, if my son does not have brains, he will do menial works. If toilet cleaner's son has brains, he will do a reputed job.

he: No, but they are born to do that job.

I did not continue the discussion.

So, this is not to bash my dear friend, but there are many many people like him. How to change people's attitude where they think that they have God given right to treat other's as subhuman.

TatTvamAsi
26 September 2008, 08:03 PM
Namaste,

Your friend is sorely mistaken not because he thinks that one born into a particular caste is most likely to do the job of his brethren, but because he thinks that he, as the doer, and others should & can enforce Varnashrama Dharma, which is completely natural!

Although Varnashrama Dharma is natural, when enforced by man becomes corrupted as ulterior motives and personal bias, agenda, and predilictions take over. When a sUdra, vaIsya, kSatrIyA, and brAhmanA act according to his svAdharmA, society as a whole benefits and is in perfect equilibrium. When this balance is disturbed for whatever reason, the consequences are dire and society as a whole breaks down.

Call it old-fashioned, Varnashrama Dharma, when naturally followed is the perfect form of governance (by GOD). However, this is a call in the wilderness these days as each person's "individuality" or EGO is so bloated that actions toward the betterment of society is seen as foolish and even as subjugation by others.

I do agree however that no matter what background one is from, if one has the aptitude, one must be given the opportunity to succeed.

Subham.

saidevo
26 September 2008, 10:35 PM
In Tamilnadu, the political parties DMK and DK profess themselves to be atheists but are sickeningly perverse: the leaders of these parties spread canards against Brahmins (who is just 3% in Tamilnadu population), and about the Hindu Samskrta scriptures; yet the temples are under the control of the government (HR&CE department) though the churches and mosques are out of such control. The party leaders visit churches and mosques on festive occasions, be the first to criticize Hindus when they retaliate agatinst the evil deeds of the religious minorities and turn a blind eye when those acts are brought to their attention. Their hypocrisy is so worse that they would have only brahmin doctors, auditors and personal advisers for them and their family, their family members would surreptitiously visit temples, and some of them even practise yoga from a brahmin teacher!

One of their demands is to make people from the lower castes learn Vedas and be temple priests (though it would be against the Agama rules in the big temples) and also do the main worship in temples in Tamil. Long back they Tamilized all the names of Gods, prefixing the names with 'aruLmigu' for 'Sri'. For all such pampering, I am yet to see a genuinely interested man from the so-called lower castes to rise up to scholarship in Sanskrit and Scriptures and become even remotely qualified for the job of a priest, though many of them learn Sanskrit in the private schools they study.

And for all the rhetoric of the politicians, I doubt if a popular political leader or a celebrity from the cinema, sports and bureaucracy would admit a servant or a toilet cleaner or people of low castes into their own homes, and dine with them sitting on the same table. Thus it is such people--not the brahmins--and some misguided Hindus of other higher castes who harass the people of the lower castes, specially in villages. The very same leaders would not raise their voices against such harassment because if they did, they would lose votes of the higher castes.

The VarNa and even the Caste System that lends color and diversity to the Hindu culture cannot and must not be done away with. It is this system that has saved the Hindu culture and tradition from the Islamic invasion and the British colonnial rule.

This does not mean that deserving people from the lower castes should not progress and prosper, but only that they should not be unduly pampered for such progress. Hindu dharma has a system called 'vrAtyastoma' which absorbs and assmilates even the non-Hindus into the Hindu society, if they freely seek it, so why not a person of a lower caste move up the ladder, if and only if he/she has proven credentials?

Sudarshan
28 September 2008, 04:49 AM
I think the caste system in its present form must be abolished. It should be abolished not by reducing everyone to the lowest level, but raising everyone to the highest level of morality and spirituality - yes, we need to make all Hindus Brahmins through highest instructions.

It is not sufficient for someone to claim himself to be a brahmin. He should prove his merit. A true Brahmin is a wall of fire - a storehouse of tapasya - he can burn dry grass by his mere penetrative looks. But is there a brahmin who can do that these days? When there is no difference between a brahmin and others why have this classification that divides our society. People hardly realize that this has helped our corrupt politicians to craftily implement the divide and rule policy. This has prevented Hindus from grabbing the political power at the centre inspite of Hindu majority.

Christianity is eating away the Hindu religion very fast, There are 28% of christians in Tamil Nadu now. It is rising steeply in both Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. The temple lands of Tirupati Balaji are being sold on a large scale because of corrupt state govt in AP and this will cripple the temple in future.

Caste system in its present form is a weak point of Hinduism and is a target of missionaries. Brahmins dont have any spirittual power to demonstrate ( can they atleast do faith healing?) not even have the power to protect themselves and therefore all people are at the same level now and no need of discrimination.

All our Hindu leaders must act together and abolish it and make every Hindu a Brahmin and give them sacred threads. Each Hindu will then take pride in being a Hindu and will not sell his soul for cheap missionary tactics. Every Hindu must be taught the greatness of our religion and the hollowness of Adharmic religions such as christianity and islam. Then only we wiill surive. If you dont do this now, be prepared to become second class citizen in our own country in a christian/muslim majority India in future.

Sorry for being controversial but I am just thinking out loud! We have messed our society and exposed it to be exploited by mlecchas and asuras.

saidevo
28 September 2008, 10:53 AM
Namaste Sudarshan.

Let me also try to do some loud thinking on what you have written. I totally agree with you, "We have messed our society and exposed it to be exploited by mlecchas and asuras", but don't honestly think that the solutions you offer could all be successful.

It is true that today's brahmins are turning more and more worldly, giving up their dharma. What is also true is that they don't voluntarily opt for such a life, only the circumstances force them to do it, in my opinion. The lack of opportunity and the lure of money are the primary factors that induce brahmins to choose professions and life that are un-brahminical.

But then it is also true that there are many brahmins who have chosen a life to follow their dharma, though this is a minuscule percentage of the brahmin population. Whatever little sustenance, maintenance and survival of the Hindu dharma we see is by and large due to them. Today's Vedic brahmins may not be able to 'burn dry grass' at mere sight, but they can and do bring in rain, peace and prosperity due to the innumerable yajnas that are taking place daily in Tamilnadu and other states of India, using the philanthropy of the nobles souls from other castes. A good percentage of today's householder-brahmins do follow their dharma, their 'nitya karmas', provide and partake 'satsangs', the brahmin women do daily pujas and conduct group chanting of stotras like Lalitha Sahasranama and so on, in spite of the situation that they get far less visiblity and respect in the current social and political set up. Therefore, in my opinion, we cannot discount the efforts of the nobles souls among brahmins as well as in other communities.



I think the caste system in its present form must be abolished. It should be abolished not by reducing everyone to the lowest level, but raising everyone to the highest level of morality and spirituality - yes, we need to make all Hindus Brahmins through highest instructions.

All our Hindu leaders must act together and abolish it and make every Hindu a Brahmin and give them sacred threads. Each Hindu will then take pride in being a Hindu and will not sell his soul for cheap missionary tactics.


You must be joking! In what way do you think sacred-threading every Hindu and making them brahmins would make them more religious than they are (capable of) and be immune to the conversion threats of the Christian missionaries? Even brahmins are converting these days! Is every Hindu in India and elsewhere who is not a brahmin, ready for the rigours of the dharma of Vedic brahminism, while you say that today's brahmins themselves are not ready for it?

Spirituality and religion are sought, not taught. Dharma must become karma, not goaded acts where there is no conviction. A Hindu who wants to be dhArmic, religious and spiritual, can be so, whatever the caste or varNa he/she belongs to. What can be taught is only the awareness and the spiritual advantages of being dhArmic, religious and spiritual, and even then the student has to practise what is taught, this must come from the very young age and the key people responsible for it are not the sages of religious institutions but the parents and educational teachers and to some extent the government.

Hindu dharma has given status that can be considered on par to all the varNas. For example, a man who is a barber in a saloon, when a festive occasion such as a Hindu wedding or some divine festivity in a temple comes up, closes his saloon for the day, thoroughly washes himself, wears the vibhuti, dons silk clothes and is present with all honours, there at the front, in the nAdasvaram-tavil orchestra group, to initiate the ceremony! In such a honourable social set up, why would a man of the barber caste and varNa want to become a brahmin?

Most people from the lower castes do not aspire for the position of brahmins or priests in temples; only the politicians say so. A brahmin purohit who lives his life from the Vedic ceremonies he conducts in (specially) brahmin homes and the puja he does to the gods in the temples, earns far little, specially in the suburban and rural areas, than a barber or a housemaid or a construction labourer does in their own jobs! This is the hard truth of how things are today, which is why the people of lower castes don't aspire to become brahmins. What they want is to be provided the equal treatment and opportunity in the society, specially to study the worldly education of science and arts on par with the people of higher castes and take up white color jobs. Here again, because of the government's quota system, the affluent and creamy layers among them corner all the opportunities and waste them with low-key performances. This means that the affluent among the lower castes care nothing for the poor among them, so why blame the brahmins for that?

It is NOT the brahmins today that harass the dalits and people of lower castes. It is the other high caste Hindus and their own affluent people who harass them. Politicians have vested interests in their vote banks, so turn a blind eye, only indulging in empty rhetoric against brahminism and Hinduism.

The ultimate solution would perhaps lie in an education and government that is really based on Hindu Dharma that provides fair opportunities for everyone and keeps the society in peace. I would even say that the Indian public are sincerely yearning for such a change. They are not united, however, so they cannot assert themselves. More than from the religion, the initiative of leadership should come from the politics: if there is one honest, popular and patriotic leader (possibly a man like Narendra Modi--I am not his fan or supporter) who can have his way, he would definitely change things permanently for the better.

atanu
28 September 2008, 12:03 PM
Namaste saidevoji, TTA, Sudarshan and reflections,

Guru Ramana who was almost a Socialist in His approach, however, said: "It is dangerous to discard traditional rules of conduct. Try to think and understand their significance."

He also said: "To humble oneself more and more is good. Avoid contempt towards those who are low."

Below are my loud thoughts on the subject. I understand that similar to Varna, which cannot be same for all, a discussion on the subject will also have many varnas and not one.

Varna is a very deep spiritual truth that is not at all known/relevant for most people. If I am of Brahmin nature (varna-inner color), I will do good as a Brahmin. Any other calling would distort my life and my future. In today's society, ruled by blind desire for consumerism, everyone craves the greener grass elsewhere. Contentment, which actually is the goal of everyone, is pushed far by one's own actions. Jealousy, envy, and hatred control the actions rather than wisdom.

In addition to educating people on real significance of varna (as best as can be done), I agree to Sudarshan's view to the extent that a certain amount of reform is required so that the negative perceptions of caste system (which is perception and also real pain and shame to many low caste born) cannot be exploited by those who create divisions -- such as missionaries and some Hindus as well.

The shame of being a so-called low caste born should not be heaped upon some, as Narayana is manifest through all.

It is mind's nature to be divisive. If we remove all Muslims and Christians from the scene then also we will see Hindus fighting each other on some or other pretext. The problem is not in the varna itself, which is natural, but the problem is human ego and false idea of I-Me-Mine.

Yet, to foster Brotherhood and Goodness, IMO, a positive reform is called for. (And why restrict it to only the caste divisions -- all divisions are similar).

Om Namah Shivaya

Sudarshan
28 September 2008, 01:11 PM
Namaste Sai,



You must be joking! In what way do you think sacred-threading every Hindu and making them brahmins would make them more religious than they are (capable of) and be immune to the conversion threats of the Christian missionaries? Even brahmins are converting these days! Is every Hindu in India and elsewhere who is not a brahmin, ready for the rigours of the dharma of Vedic brahminism, while you say that today's brahmins themselves are not ready for it?


I am not all joking. I am being proactive. On what basis can you justify the basis of the present form of caste system? Can you justidy it from the scripture - I mean the vedic corpus?

And even if you justify from the scripture why do you think it is applicable to the present day world? How would it be different from a christian or a muslim quoting from the scripture that we are all kaffirs?

You cannot get away with saying that it is due to one's karma that one gets to be born in a certain varNa because karma is an unproved axiom and not available to pratyaxa and anumAna. Our scripture does not support any divisions of varNa apart from being spiritual categories or those based on ones qualities ( as in the Gita). So the varNa a person belongs to is strictly a function of his characteristics and little to do with birth.

If brahmin's are not upto the mark we could strip them of their status? When has it been done and who will do it? How do you propose to do it?

This is why I mentioned about getting everyone to the equal level from a social point of view. Our spiritual caste is unknown to us as it is more deeper than our external appearance. Ultimately the Atman is casteless. After providing social equality to all this way, afterwards it is their own responsibility to either go up or down spiritually based on their actions. It is none of our business. One way we could equalize the society is by bringing eveyone to the same level - avatNa, shUdra, vaishya, xatriya or brAhmaNa. Which do you think is more suitable, think about it.

It is quite unfortunate that this system still has plenty of supporters. My aim in sweeping out the whole system is also to ensure that no injustice is meted out to brahmins and other forward castes due to reservatrions and all such nonsense which will cripple the economy in the long run. By giving jobs to the undeserving we are making our country progress in the reverse direction. The brahmins of today will become untouchables at a future date if you allow the system to exist - because everything is loaded against them. The govt should completely stop asking for religion, caste, subcaste etc in all application forms which can happen only when the system is no more. As long as Brahmins or anyone else wants this system in place, only they will suffer. Christians are even so clever that they are working quite actively to get reservations for the backward converts to christianity - this shows that their motive is not 'soul saving' but mere 'flock increasing'.

It is time the religeous leaders of India realize the non applicability of the divisions in the present day world that will only cause unhappiness to a lot of people. The varNa system is applicable only in a spiritual society where each person understands the spiritual truth and his own role in it. In a predominantly materialistic world, the discriminations will have more illeffects than their usefulness. All laws are man made - all have their time and place to operate. Almost every religion missed this subtle point and still keeps insisting on following rules written thousands of years ago. Can we deny education to women just because some smritis says so? Think about it.

saidevo
28 September 2008, 11:10 PM
Namaste Sudarshan.

I can understand your frustration and urge towards proactive equalization of religions, castes and opportunities for worldly and spiritual progress in India. The only way people like you can make it happen is to form a political outfit, do the propaganda, contest the elections and win them and then do what you seek. Until then, the views such as you express can at best be social hypotheses.

Let me summarize my findings/views on what you have written in your post (#7). Since there are many points, I shall post them in convenient lots.

1. Is there (any) scriptural references to the varNAshrama dharma?

• There is this famous passage in the hymn PuruSha SUkta of Rg Veda (10:90) that describes the divine origin of the four varNas.

• Manu Smriti and other Dharma Shastras, of course, have elaborate descriptions of the varNashrama.

• There is a verse in Bhagavad Gita too:

chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

2. Is there any justification for the varNas in today's social set up?

If for a Hindu, acceptance of the Vedas (and the Gita as the fifth Veda) is a must, then I wonder what objection could be there for the varNa system that has worked so perfectly in the social set up of the earlier three Yugas and why it can't work in the same way for this Kali Yuga.

Kanchi Paramacharya has a lesson for us on this subject. Commenting on Gandhiji's views on the varNa system, he says (quoted selectively):



Varnasrama is the backbone of our religion. If it is to be abandoned on the pretext that it is beyond repair, we do not require either a matha or a man to preside over it.
...

If the old system of caste is in reality extinct, there is no need for a matha and it should be disbanded. But I nurse the belief that such a thing has not happened yet. Nor do I think that caste will before long inevitably cease to exist. I am also confident that, if we are awake to the problem at least now and mobilise all our strength and resources to take the necessary steps, we shall be able to impart the varna system new life and vigour.
...

No matter how the varna system has become muddled with reference to other vocations, Vedic learning which is the life-breath of all occupations still survives in the pathasalas here and there. In these schools the scriptures are taught strictly in the traditional way.
...

Since Gandhiji believed that varnasrama dharma could neither be mended nor revived in its true form, he wanted it to be totally scrapped. I think otherwise.
...

We must learn the lesson from our history during the past fifty years that our society will have to pay dearly if it gives up varna dharma. You will learn this lesson from the fate suffered by the great civilisations that flourished in the rest of the world where such a system did not obtain.
...

The disintegration of the old system of hereditary vocations must be attributed to the introduction of machinery and the establishment of big factories. There is not much scope for machines in a simple life. The old varna system could be saved if poeple live a simple life and are occupied with the old handicrafts and cottage industries. Gandhiji spoke untiringly of his ideal that all work must be done by human power. He was against monstrous machines and urged people to live a simple life, eschewing all luxury. In this respect his views are in conformity with the ideals of varna dharma.
...

Why are people generally opposed to caste? Because they believe that caste is responsible for the differences and disparities in society and the quarrels arising from them. I have told you so often that in reality no jati is inferior to another or superior to it. However, critics of varna dharma argue that, whether or not in reality it has caused differences in society, an impression had gained ground that it has. As you can see for yourself, they add," There are quarrels arising out of them. We want to do away with the system of jatis because we don't want these fights to go on indefinitely and divide society."
...

To speak thus, however, is to suggest that we must cut of the head to cure headache. If the old dharma suffers from a headache in the form of quarrels in society, it is our duty to restore it to health. How? We must speak to the people concerned about the true principles and remove the misunderstanding that cause quarrels. This is the mode of treatment to keep the old system of varna healthy. It is preposterous to suggest that, because of the disputes, the dharma that is the root and source of our society should itself be done away with.
...

If there is something that is the cause of a dispute, it does not stand to reason to destroy this something itself. We cannot conduct the affairs of the world in this manner. There will naturally be people for this and against any question. Such differences are inevitable. Today there are two issues which have been the cause of a great deal of conflict. These are languages and ideology. It would be absurd to argue that we want neither any language nor any ideology because they are the cause of conflict.
...

Would it be right to argue that all ideologies must be scrapped merely because they lead to quarrels? Any government is constituted on some ideologies basis or other, is it not? No ideology would mean no government- is it not so? Are we then to abolish the institution of governments and be alike animals [in the absence of any authority to enforce law and order]? If languages are not wanted because they are the cause of trouble and if governments are not wanted because they lead to ideological wars, it follows logically that religions and jatis also are not wanted since they too create disputes. Going a step further we may ask: Is it not because we human beings exist that we keep quarrelling among ourselves? So should we. . . . [the Paramaguru just smiles without completing the sentence].
...

Modernists think that it is the varna system that is responsible for quarrels in society over questions of"high" and" low" among the various jatis. On the contrary, I think it is precisely for the purpose of ridding society of feelings of differences in status that we need the caste system.
...

If there is ill-will in society, it is because the concept of varna dharma is not properly understood. We must resolve right now to practise this dharma in its true spirit so that there will be no cause for society to be raven by bitterness.
...

With the decay of jati dharma, livelihood has become a major problem for everybody. The obsession with money is a natural consequence of this worry. Until 70 or 75 years ago, nobody had any problem about his means of sustenance. The worry or concern then was about one's duty. If obtaining the means of livelihood were the only goal of life, the less well-off would be jealous of those who are affluent and occupy high places in the society. It would also lead to misunderstanding and quarrels. If each man is concerned only about his duty and about doing it well, questions of status will not arise. But if money and status are the objectives, it will naturally mean that the man who has more money and occupies a higher place is superior to the man who is less prosperous and occupies a lower position. The point is such differences do not exist in true varna dharma. Even if the social order of jatis were abolished and together with it the quarrels among the various communities came to an end, society would have to face another problem, that is class conflict. We see this phenomenon all over the world today.
...

Our society must be one in which there are no differences of high and low. All will then live in harmony as the children of Isvara without fighting among themselves. They will live as a united family helping one another and spreading a sense of peace and happiness everywhere. I ask you to follow the old dharma so that we may achieve such an ideal society. If we take a small step now towards such a goal, Isvara will give us a helping hand for us to go further ahead. I keep praying to him.

Source:
Is Cutting off the Head a Cure for Headache?
(http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap9.htm)

References to talks on the subject by Kanchi Paramacharya:
Division of Labour
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap1.htm

What is Varna Dharma?
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap2.htm

Divided by Work but still of One Heart
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap4.htm

Why only in this Country
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap5.htm

Who is Responsible for the Decay of Varna Dharma?
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap6.htm

The Least Expected of Brahmins
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap7.htm

plus the other chapters in Part 3 of the compilation 'Hindu Dharma', hosted in the Kamakoti website.

saidevo
29 September 2008, 02:15 AM
3. What could happen if the varNa and the caste system in India is abolished completely?

The lure of money brought in by industrialization, technology and the invasion of the western culture is the main root of all evils that threaten to shake the foundation of the varNa dharma in our Hindu/Indian society. Money in its current perception as accumulation of wealth, is the archenemy of Dharma.

The term 'wealth' in the western culture originated from 'weal' meaning a 'sound or prosperous state, well-being, welfare'. The well-being professed is obtained by the strife for happiness and comfort in the material, worldly life. The term 'money' itself has a root in 'mint' (there is this phrase 'minting money'). Ironically, the other root 'moneta' signified a 'warning' during the Roman days, from their goddess Juno of impending danger! (http://louisville.edu/~bmhawo01/econpage/meanings.html)

In Hindu Dharma, the equivalent of money and wealth is 'artha', whose primary meanings include 'aim, purpose, meaning, sense, object' and then only 'wealth, prosperity' etc. Seeking money that has a meaning and purpose in our life is one of the four 'puruShArtha's (objectives) of life. Though we have a term 'dravya' meaning 'substance', it is used much less than the term 'artha' for money. Even the word 'dhana' (wealth) is always paired with 'dhAnya' (grains) and 'dAna' (act of giving).

The system of 'varNas' automatically restrict the wealth and money-power of the people in the society, thereby giving a meaning, purpose and aim to the way people live their life. Thus, the king was the wealthiest person in the land, followed by the successful people in the business ('vaishya') class, but their chief dharma was exhorted to be charity; and the brahmins were the poorest of the people, always dependent on the other varNas, chiefly the king, for their sustenance in life.

Compare this system to the present set up wherein

• the political leaders amass wealth not just for them and their family but for ten generations of their family tree, and invest that ill-earned money in evil businesses or stash it away in Swiss Banks;

• the corporate businesses plunder the wealth and resources of nature, torment the working class and force consumerism down the throats of the gullible public;

• the internal security forces such as the police, and the people of governmental administration, all seek to amass wealth with ever-increasing greed, corruption and enmity, creating and manipulating dens of vices in the society.

Even though in later times castes were developed out of the varNa system, and many among the brahmins became wealthy landlords, and many more government servants and some of them even politicians and so on, those brahmins in their now affluent positions, kept the wheel of dharma revolving, by their propensity of being honest, compassionate, religious and patriotic, unlike the present society of landlords, merchants and the ruling people.

The point is that 'brahminism' which is based on the Vedas, is the root of Hindu Dharma, that nourishes and sustains the growth of the tree of life whose branches are honesty, compassion, devotion, nationalism and patriotism. Not everyone can do it, if people of all castes are uplifted to the social status of being brahmins by sacred-threading and teaching them the Vedas.

The efforts of thus 'levelling up' everyone is bound to backfire as 'levelling down', with even the dharma-conscious brahmins getting allured to ways of wealth and comforts, frustrated by the loss of standards, and this could result in the destruction of the study, teaching and chanting of the Vedas. The rigours of life in the study and practice of the Vedas are so tough (as you know) that only the most spiritual among even the brahmins opt for that kind of life.

Vedas have been guarded and preserved in their form ONLY BY THE BRAHMIN FAMILIES in all the Yugas, an unenviable task that none else can do as successfully. Normalization of the fields of study, teaching and chanting Vedas by opening them to everyone, specially to the unqualified people (even if they are brahmins by caste) would be the beginning of the end of the Hindu Dharma which is based on Vedas.

If the study and practice of the Vedas, which is currently the exclusive purview of most qualified and spiritually inclined brahmins is to be normalized and thrown open to everyone, we should also do it for the other 'professions':

• Let everyone who wants to study medicine and engineering be given a seat in those colleges and become doctors and engineers?

• Let everyone who wants to earn wealth in shortcut be given a chance by rotation in politics or the film industry?

• Let everyone who works in a piece of land own it--why should only wealty landlords own massive tracts of land--and have his/her own cultivation?

• Let every worker in the corporate business share the wealth generated by the companies they work in?

Destruction of the Vedas would be destruction of the Sanatana Dharma, which is precisely what the politicians, Christian missionaries, Muslims and other vested interests in India and abroad are seeking desperately. I am sure that caste and varNa normalization would not just facilitate but accelerate that process.

reflections
29 September 2008, 03:37 AM
Namaste,
Thanks a lot for all the replies. The replies are very informative,.
So again one simple question:
Is varnashram Dharma based on Birth or based on nature, aptitude and actions of the individual?
If a person with different aptitude and action is born in different caste, shall he/she be considered to belong to that varna?

E.g. If a born brahmin starts dairy business, shall he be considered Vasihya?
If a born Shudra has intelligence, purity, self control and wants to study vedas, shall he be allowed?

I understand that heriditary factors and samskars given be parents play a vital role, but still there is no guarantee that a person might not have different nature.

Thanks.

Eastern Mind
29 September 2008, 05:45 PM
Namaste, Vannakkam all.. its been a long time since I posted. Regarding the fight against casteism, it seems to me that these types of fights are firstly, inner... you have to really change yourself first, easier said than done.. butif you recognise it in yourself you have an excellent start. Others.. well, the subconscious mind is a total of the conscious mind experiences, and the older we are, the less likely we are to change. One's experiences form the subconscious. A clear example is the Sri lankan Tamil who truly believes that the Buddhists are our enemies, and the Christians our friends. Why? Because of the Sinhala/Buddhist vs Tamil conflict thats been going on for a very long time. Outside of Sri lanka, most Hindus and Buddhists see themselves as more or less eastern brothers with similar paths, whilst the Christians/Moslems/Jews are very different. So caste will remain until the individual evolves spiritually enough to see God flowing through all mankind, regardless of race, occupation etc. Even in the west a closer look at our class system and its rigidness is revealed fairly quickly. (Truckers don't (can't?)wear suits; doctors and lawyers don't eat at truck stops.) (No soup for you!) Sorry to ramble..just another perspective.. For the record, officiallially I don't believe in caste, yet my mind still jumps to erroneous conclusions about a particular person of a particular race/class. Aum Namasivaya.

devotee
29 September 2008, 10:14 PM
Namaste all,

This is a very important issue to be taken seriously by all Hindus. I thank "reflections" for starting this thread.

We Hindus believe in equality of all. Then why discriminate against our own Hindu brethren in the name of caste ? If I cannot bow before the sanitary cleaner just because he was born in a so called lower caste, then all our talks of "Tat tvam asi" is hollow & hippocracy.

When I was young, I had a friend who was a "chamaar" by caste but was the topper of our class. Once my friends saw me sharing food with him & told my mother of my "sin". My mother started scolding me but I simply told her, " Ma, I cannot fight with you. But just think : if you were born in that caste & you were treated like we treat them, how would you have felt ? As I cannot tolerate discrimination against myself, I cannot discriminate against anyone." I was always considered a rebellion in my family for my such thoughts.

Lord Krishna's message is very clear when he says, " Chaturvarnayam maya shrishtam guna-karma vibhagshah". The division is based on "guna & karma" & not on birth ... please note. In this world, there are hardly a few Brahmins. Many so called brahmins whom I know are in fact Shudras & I know a few so called Shudras who are Kshatriya or Vaishya.

This burning issue has been neglected by our torch-bearers of Hinduism & we are paying a very heavy price for that. The politicians today would not have been successful in dividing us in the name of caste if we would have tackled this menace ourselves. This perverted reservation policy where a brahmin who is not able to earn even a thousand rupees in a month is considered a "forward" & a person of a lower caste earning even Rs. 15000/- per month (which is now being considered to be raised to Rs. 40,000/- a month) is considered a backward. This is the reason there are mass-conversion from Hinduism to Christianity, Buddhism & even Islam. What these religions offer them ? They offer them equality which is the birth-right of every human being. This is the reason incompetent, corrupt criminal people are becoming law-makers in Indian polity. This is the reason demand of dowry has risen so much (because when you limit marriages within only to a particular caste, the available options reduce drastically & many people chase same bridegroom) that marriages are not taking place on equal footing of quality & samaskars.

How long shall we remain sleeping allowing all these to happen ?

What can be done ? I have some suggestions :

a) All the great spiritual souls of Hindu religions should form a forum which shall realise the gravity of the situation. They must realise the urgency of having a strategy to wipe out this menace for once & all.
b) Some great Hindu soul with a backing powerful organistaion can start asking for "Caste Daan" on the lines of "Bhoomi Daan" or "Anna Daan" etc. The people making "Caste Daan" should call themselves only Hindu witout any reference to thier caste. They should not use any surname or title which shows their caste. They can have uniform surnames, as "Arya" or "Bharati" or surnames related with village names etc.
c) People should make a vow that they would consider only quality & samskar of the groom & the bride-groom in arranging marriages.

etc.
etc.
---------

I sometimes dream seeing some great spiritual leader taking up this torch of Truth to eliminate this darkness which has eclipsed Hindu society. Will my dream be ever fulfilled ? God only knows.

Who is higher & who is lower ? I bow to even my dog for the divinity within it.

OM

saidevo
29 September 2008, 10:32 PM
Namaste reflections.

Let me first quote from the teachings of my mAnasIka gurus Kanchi Paramacharya and Swami Sathya Sai Baba, before I venture to offer my own impression on the subjects of varNa chosen by birth and if a qualified man from the other varNas can learn and practice the Vedas. It is not necessary that you or any other person concur with the teachings (though I believe them, so no point in finding fault with me), but they are there as sound warnings.

As you are perhaps aware, Kanchi Paramacharya belonged to a 'vaidIka' (Vedic) brahmin family in his 'pUrvAshrama' (earlier stage of life), but once he became a 'sannyAsi' and a Jagadguru of a Sankaracharya MaTham, he was beyond his varNa, yet he lived his life of 'bhakti' and 'jnAna', strictly on the 'sannyAsa dharma' laid down by Adi Sankara, proving that a sage of his stature who was very close to the people could follow the dharma prescribed by the Shastras, every moment of his life.

Thus he believed and taught the Hindu Dharma as ordained by the Vedas and other scriptures, and opined that the varNa system is most suitable for India at all times and that a person's varNa is decided by his birth. The following are some of his teachings:



When a man thinks of abandoning his dharma - the duties allotted to him by birth - you must persuade him not to do so and impress upon him that he must remain loyal to his dharma since it serves not only him individually but all others.

Quoting Gandhiji: "Gandhiji has written an essay entitled, "My Varnasrama Dharma". In it he says:"Varnasrama is a system that has happened on its own. It is natural and inherent in a man's birth. It is a natural law that Hinduism has systematised into a science. This system makes a fourfold division of labour and lays down the duties of each section but not its rights. ... I keep fighting against untouchability because I consider it an evil but I support varnasrama as healthy for society and believe that it is not the product of a narrow mind. This arrangement gives the labourer the same status as it does a great thinker". Gandhiji supported varnasrama with greater ardour than sanatanists.

The principle behind this arrangement is that a man must do the work handed down to him from his forefathers - whatever such work be - with the conviction that it has been ordained by Isvara and that it is for the good of the world. The work he does in this spirit itself becomes a means of his inward advancement.


Swami Sathya Sai Baba was born in the kShatriya varNa. Though he teaches that a mantra like the Gayatri Mantra is for the entire humanity, he strongly encourages only brahmins to study and practice the Vedas. Some of his teachings:



Parashurama did not want to rule over these 21 kingdoms. He gifted them away
to the sage Kashyapa who in turn again handed these over to 21 deserving
sons of these Kshatriya kings. He knew that Brahmanas are an important
section of this society. But they can not thrive unless they are protected
by Kshatriyas and fed by the Vaishyas. In the Varna system, every varna has
its importance and role to play. [Sai Bala Newsletter](http://saibabalinks.org/nwsl/saibala/2003/19.htm)

The varnas relate to the physical aspect of man; they cannot affect the spiritual aspect at all. ... Of course, "physical" includes the intellect, the mind, the chiththa, the antha karana, etc. Unless these are trained and regulated, the Atma Dharma cannot be understood.
[source:Prashanti Vahini, p46.]

The Atma is Sath, Chith and Ananda; those are its nature, if somehow it has to be indicated. This can be realised only by purifying the heart, mind and intellect of man. Persons who have that purity, whatever their varna or ashrama, can attain moksha.
[source:Prashanti Vahini, p46.]

Rama killed Shambuka belonging to Shudra Varna, not because he was a Shudra,
nor for his aspirations to be a Brahmana by practising penance. Shambuka
like Trishanku, past Ikshwaku king in the same line as Rama himself, was
practising penance by, hanging from a branch of a tree with his feet up and
head down. His purpose in following this path of severe austerities was to
obtain heavenly abode with the same body. For this very purpose
Trishanku was cursed to be a Chandala by the sage Vasishtha. This act was
setting a vry bad example before the posterity. It was an anti-social act,
and the punishment for it was death. Rama, therefore, on discovering him
instantly beheaded him. (http://www.saibabalinks.org/newsletter/newsletter_saibala_2003_20.htm)

From 'Prasnottara Vahini':
http://www.saibaba.ws/vahini/prasnottaravahini/prasnottaravahini12.htm

Q. Swami, you say that one has to do some things; that one should not do certain other things. How are we to know which is which? What is the authority?
A. The Sastras are the authority. The Manusmrithi itself declares, for example, that Varnas and Asramas are only for physical purification and that they do not affect the gaining or losing of the Highest.

Q. If that is so, why all this bother of Varna and Asrama, and the rules and regulations binding them?
A. Ah, they are required until you become free from attachment or Raga. Until then and for the sake of that, the regulations, limits and rules have to be obeyed to the very letter. The medicine has to be taken, so long as the illness persists. Each type of illness has a special medicine for cure, is it not? And a different course of diet and a special regimen. After one has got rid of the illness, one can partake of a feast with the rest. Without accepting this, if the well and the ill both demand the same feast, it will lead to calamitous consequences. The Varnas and the Asramas are as medicine prescribed for those who suffer from this Bhavaroga, the ills of worldliness and worldly attachment. Raga (attachment) is the roga (illness) and roga can disappear only by regimen, strictly observed. Unless you get well you cannot be liberated. This is the true meaning of Vedantha; he who knows this, whatever his Asrama, attains Mukthi.


As to my own personal opinion and impressions on the issue:

• Although I subscribe to the teachings of the gurus I mentioned above, I appreciate the debate whether varNa is to be based on birth and whether other castes may learn and practice the Vedas.

• At the same time, I think, the issue should be settled by our Hindu religious leaders, arriving at a consensus among themselves, and not by the politicians, the government, the courts or the public. Matters relating to the application and practice of religion are only solved by the religious gurus in other religions, so why should be different in Hinduism?

• One thing should be clearly understood: as I have explained in my above posts, even among Brahmins, only a few take to the rigours of the study and practice of the Vedas, where the correct pronunciation and recitation that causes the required vibrations is a must. Therefore, while anyone can know/read/study/listen to/research the Vedas, reciting them in Hindu religious ceremonies is best left to the traditional brahmins.

• Irrespective of the varNa/caste we, the faithful Hindus belong to, we must identify and protest the vested forces of politicians, non-Hindus, non-faithful-Hindus, historians with a communist leaning and so on from exploiting these issues and dividing us for their own profit.

Here are some references I came by on the subject of castes and varNas:

A peep into the past to know whether castes existed in Tamilnadu
http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com/2008/04/peep-into-past-to-know-whether-castes.html

Varna Ashram and Hindu Scriptures
http://www.geocities.com/satyawaadi/caste_2.pdf

From Race to Caste to Ethnicity
http://coursesite.cl.uh.edu/hsh/reddy/Documents/The%20Ethnicity%20of%20Caste.pdf

reflections
30 September 2008, 05:03 AM
Namaste,
Saidevo, I am thankful for your inputs with references from different scholars and religious leader. So, this still remains a debated issue. People like Dayananda Saraswati thought differently.

So, if Varna is birth based, what Varna or caste should be assigned to new converts of Hinduism?

Just to make clear, I rever varnashram dhrama. It makes life so much focused. I am just confused on how to decide varna.

Jai Shri Krishna.

saidevo
30 September 2008, 09:29 AM
Namaste reflections.



I am thankful for your inputs with references from different scholars and religious leader. So, this still remains a debated issue. People like Dayananda Saraswati thought differently.

So, if Varna is birth based, what Varna or caste should be assigned to new converts of Hinduism?

Just to make clear, I rever varnashram dhrama. It makes life so much focused. I am just confused on how to decide varna.


1. Yes, it still remains a debated--and an emotional--issue, with differences of opinion between even the Hindu DharmAcharyas. Yet, those differences are not acrimonious, and they lend variety and color to our great religion. In fact, I think some religious institutions ARE imparting vedic education to non-brahmins.

2. I think the new converts to Hinduism, who were not previously Hindus, would fall under the fifth varNa 'sAmAnya' which is applicable only for the Kali Yuga. (Check http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3400). Those who were previously Hindus, would naturally belong to their earlier varNas and castes.

3. I am glad you rever varnAshrama dharma and understand that it makes life focussed, besides regulating the wealth and money-power of individual persons, mainly by exhorting the affluent to support the needy. The class system by profession is there in all societies in the world, not just in India.

4. If you think about it, in India, the number of Hindu religious institutions headed by sages who belonged to one of the other three varNas in their pre-sannyAsic stage of life, is far more than the number of institutions headed by sages who were brahmins in their 'pUrvAshrama'. Hundreds of devotees and pandits who belong to these institutions are worldy and vedic brahmins. Why haven't these institutions started their own Vedic schools and teach Vedas to non-Brahmins? I think this is because they respect the varNa dharma and the precepts of our Dharma Shastras, so there is no point in blaming that the Veda PAThashAlas run by brahmins do not admin non-brahmins and teach Vedas to them.

5. As I have outlined earlier, study and practice of the Vedas is a highly professional area. Only the most spiritual among the brahmins take to it and become Vedic pandits, undergoing the rigours of the courses spread over many years. A Vedic Pandit also studies and excels in almost all the Srutis, Smritis and the Sanskrit Secular Literature: Vedas, Vedangas, Upa-Vedas, Tattvas, Jyotisha, Puranas, Itihasas and even Kavyas and Natakas. You might understand what sort of foundation and expertise it all requires in the divine language of Sanskrit. Besides these people and their families lead a life strictly according to the scriptures.

In fact some schools such as the Ahobilam Matha school in Chennai teach Sanskrit to everyone who seeks it, and even Muslims join the classes the excel in the subject. If the non-brahmins are really serious about learning and practicing the Vedas let them show their genuine--not rhetoric--interest by example, live a sattvic life that is meat-and-wine-free, acquire skills in Sanskrit, exhort the affluents and philanthropists to set up Vedic schools for them, study there, excel and become a complimenting--not competing--force to the brahmin Vedic pandits whose number is dwindling day by day, without allowing the politicians, caste leaders, western religious missionaries and other vested interests to interfere in this area. If such a situation develops then all of us might perhaps appreciate and assimilate it.

I would for now only reiterate that while anyone can know/read/study/listen to/research the Vedas, reciting them in Hindu religious ceremonies is best left to the traditional brahmins.

Infinite Regress
30 September 2008, 09:37 AM
My take on this:

History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.

reflections
30 September 2008, 10:34 AM
My take on this:

History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.

Namaste Infinite Regress,
May your at stay of Hindu dharma forums be beneficial.

My view may contoversial, in my view: Varna is by aptitude of people. You can do away with formal caste system but Varna will always remain there. In every society,people can be classified as intellectuals or brave and strong or entrepreneurs or labourers. You have 5 fingers, you nourish them all and protect them all. But, each has its own function. Pinky can not simply do thumb's work.

Every system has been exploited wrongly by humans. We don't throw the systems. Do we? Sometimes Democracy is exploted by dictators. Do we abandon democracy? Banks do go through financial crisis. Do we stop investing completely?

Yes, we do need to be critical, introspective, find faults and correct those.

People on HDF may debate whether the Varna is birth based or aptitude based. However, you will not find anyone denying basic rights (Education, progress) to lower castes or advocating untouchability.

saidevo
30 September 2008, 10:43 AM
Namaste Infinite Regress.

Such views as you have expressed are seemingly clever, but actually extreme. Using the same logic, you can say:

• History shows that science and scientific research have failed consistently; their inventions contribute more to the destruction of humanity than material progress.

• History shows that allopathy medicine does not go to the root of diseases, only cures the symptoms, which nevertheless recur. The only thing it is good at is surgery but even in this area, ancient Hindus had better expertise.

• History shows that the systems of political and administrative government, even democracy, breed only corruption and create greedy monsters in the name of political leaders.

• "OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?"

So in either case, these systems have to be abandoned.

In any system which is human made, there is bound to be progress and regress, indicating flaws in the system. A wise course of action is to minimize the flaws and continue with the system.

Infinite Regress
30 September 2008, 11:07 AM
Namaste Infinite Regress.

Such views as you have expressed are seemingly clever, but actually extreme. Using the same logic, you can say:

• History shows that science and scientific research have failed consistently; their inventions contribute more to the destruction of humanity than material progress.

• History shows that allopathy medicine does not go to the root of diseases, only cures the symptoms, which nevertheless recur. The only thing it is good at is surgery but even in this area, ancient Hindus had better expertise.

• History shows that the systems of political and administrative government, even democracy, breed only corruption and create greedy monsters in the name of political leaders.

• "OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?"

So in either case, these systems have to be abandoned.

In any system which is human made, there is bound to be progress and regress, indicating flaws in the system. A wise course of action is to minimize the flaws and continue with the system.

Namaste. What you say isn't true because the mistakes you've mentioned (reg. science, medicine, democracy etc.) are often self-correcting. Which means, there's been a gradual evolution in these matters. Such changes have been totally absent in the case of caste system, which is why the comparison is quite unfair.

saidevo
30 September 2008, 12:57 PM
Namaste IR.



What you say isn't true because the mistakes you've mentioned (reg. science, medicine, democracy etc.) are often self-correcting. Which means, there's been a gradual evolution in these matters. Such changes have been totally absent in the case of caste system, which is why the comparison is quite unfair.


Yes, you're right: science, medicine and democracy started with flaws, self-corrected them, found a lot more flaws, self-corrected them, still found so many other flaws, and keeps self-correcting them, going on thus in an endless loop of trial and error.

The varNa system, on the other hand, was founded flawless because it was given to us by the Rishis who compiled the scriptures. During the times of monarchy after the advent of the Kali Yuga, the varNa system spawned the system of castes, and castes were based on one's avocation within the occupations defined in the varNas. Competition started within the avocations, for example, the various sects of farm workers, music artistes, etc., but they never crossed the borders of avocations because two avocations had nothing in common to compete, so they did not try to overrule or wipe out the other.

Even during the Muslim rule, these avocations existed in diversity but remained in unity within the folds of the varNa system and the dharma of Hinduism. It was during the British rule that the Sanskrit-based Hindu education was abandoned and the English education was forced down the throats of the Indian public. This created sedentary governmental jobs which were obtained only by the English education in the subjects of western science, arts and literature. With the introduction of industrialization and technology, these jobs--and the education that obtained them--became more and more specialized, and in today's scenario, have boiled down to just three streams: engineering, business management, medicine.

Industrialization wiped out the cottage industry, just like the monolithic multinational companies are wiping out the indigenous, small scale industries in all sectors. These were the exploitations that created the feeling of unsecurity and inequality among castes as everyone from each varNa and caste wanted to specialize in the three streams of education and earn the white collar jobs, though this would mean permanent enslavement to the corporate sector. Castes of the lower varNas, specially the Sudra, were not ready for this intellectual and brainy undertaking, so they started to feel at a disadvantage. Stupid and vile politicians took advantage of the situation in the setup of democracy, and started dividing the people on caste, creed and religion, spreading envy, hatred and enmity all around--all with an eye to rule the country and amass wealth even betraying national intersts.

It is this situation of exploitation that needs to be corrected. It can be done only by restoring the rule of the Hindu Dharma under the varNa system that advocates a simple life of self-reliance, in harmony with nature, avoiding all luxuries of technology and industrialization.

Infinite Regress
30 September 2008, 03:40 PM
Namaste IR.



Yes, you're right: science, medicine and democracy started with flaws, self-corrected them, found a lot more flaws, self-corrected them, still found so many other flaws, and keeps self-correcting them, going on thus in an endless loop of trial and error.

The difference is: this seemingly endless loop is necessary for evolution. Or else, medical marvels wouldn't be possible today. Or political revolutions such as the transition from dictatorship to democracy, the separation of church and state, and the rest. But persisting with caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better. Hence, the comparison doesn't hold good.


The varNa system, on the other hand, was founded flawless because it was given to us by the Rishis who compiled the scriptures.

This is the problem, you see? Not many Hindus are going to believe in scriptures, much less in its supposed flawlessness. Either we should convert them by force, which isn't such a good idea. Or, we must educate them, which is a near impossible task:(, considering the texts are in Sanskrit. Educating millions in this matter would require enormous amount of time, money, and energy. And quite frankly, it's like fighting a losing battle.


It is this situation of exploitation that needs to be corrected. It can be done only by restoring the rule of the Hindu Dharma under the varNa system that advocates a simple life of self-reliance, in harmony with nature, avoiding all luxuries of technology and industrialization.

Avoidance of all luxuries of technology and industrialization? We're able to make this statement with the help of technology! Besides, wealth cannot be generated with this attitude.

What I am trying to say is: In the 21st century world, would it not be better to follow winning ways? If our system is perfect, it wouldn't have suffered so many blows for centuries. Since western culture has pervaded almost every country in the world, isn't that evidence that it's superior? And if it's superior to other systems of thought, why can't we embrace it?

Let Hinduism guide our inner development. Yoga, meditation, scriptural study etc. help us toward understanding Brahman. Why must we extend Hinduism to politics as well? Let it be a religion and nothing more.

Put simply, let's be Hindus by religion and westerners by culture. That way, we can keep our glorious traditions alive, plus reap the benefits of a superior western system. We can have the best of both worlds.:)

TatTvamAsi
30 September 2008, 11:16 PM
Typical garbage spewed out by another 'person' who hasn't the slightest clue as to what Varnashrama Dharma is.

Let me guess. You're either a westerner who's "heard about Hinduism" or a pseudo-secular Hindu/Indian who's trying to be "rational". :rolleyes:

Furthermore, it is better not to come across as pontificating to those who have read and understand the matter at hand infinitely more than you do. Ever heard of reverence?


My take on this:

History shows that caste system has failed. If we say it's failed because the system itself has some inherent flaws, then we must discard it completely.

OTOH, if one says the system is good but people have exploited it, then what's the guarantee that people won't continue exploiting it for all time?

So in either case, the system has to be abandoned.

atanu
30 September 2008, 11:24 PM
chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

Namaste Friends,



"It is dangerous to discard traditional rules of conduct. Try to think and understand their significance."

Shri Ramana


The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. OTOH, a Shudra rebels at the injustice. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

-----------------

It is up to the individual ego to understand this way or that way and be responsible for the strifes or for the illumination.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

TatTvamAsi
30 September 2008, 11:25 PM
Namaste Saidevo,

Excellent posts on the first page! I really enjoyed the link to the article about caste. In fact, I have saved it on my PC! :)

Subham.

saidevo
30 September 2008, 11:36 PM
Namaste IR.

I respect your opinions but I have some differences about them:



The difference is: this seemingly endless loop is necessary for evolution. Or else, medical marvels wouldn't be possible today. Or political revolutions such as the transition from dictatorship to democracy, the separation of church and state, and the rest. But persisting with caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better. Hence, the comparison doesn't hold good.


1. Evolution of what? From monkey to humans in form but worse than the wildest, sliest animals in temperament? While I appreciate the comforts provided by science and technology, is anyone satisfied with the luxuries they give? Aren't these luxuries only breeding the six low attitudes--desire, anger, greed, lust, madness, envy--that our scriptures want us to control and avoid for spiritual progress?

2. Yes there are medical marvels that has prolonged human life, replaced defunct parts and mastered the human body. What is evil about medicine is the money it costs and goes with it.

Monarchy has worked well in the East and the West in the past, though there were tyrannical kings and queens. It is the wealth and comforts generated by industrialization, science and technology that created the dictators, and it is precisely the unity of the opposite situations in the public that uprooted those monsters and established democracy.

3. Our scriptures proclaim that the people of all varNas are equal so long as they live their dharma. As I have indicated above, there were absolutely no competition, hatred or enmity among castes originated from the varNas before the British rule as everyone was doing their own business in an atomosphere of amity provided by the Sanskrit education.

I agree, however, that persisting with the current set up of the caste system with its inequalities can't usher in any good for the society. To remove the feelings of insecurity and inequality, the government should try to create equal opportunities of education and employment that commensurate with the varNas, and exhort people not to be addictive about only the three streams of education and employment. This can be done only if the politicians themselves set an example by not giving their wards creamy and lucrative education and employment.

When India got independence, Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Aurobindo strongly advocated for a government and administration that was to be in tune with our culture and tradition. It was Nehru, who considered himself the last of the Indian Europeans, who was responsible for the current scenario.



This is the problem, you see? Not many Hindus are going to believe in scriptures, much less in its supposed flawlessness. Either we should convert them by force, which isn't such a good idea. Or, we must educate them, which is a near impossible task, considering the texts are in Sanskrit. Educating millions in this matter would require enormous amount of time, money, and energy. And quite frankly, it's like fighting a losing battle.


The Hindus will surely believe the scriptures and take to them, if we have, at least on an experimental basis, model hamlets, villages, and towns populated by people who prefer to lead a life of dharma under the varNa system. These model areas will become havens of peace, happiness and prosperity, right in the middle of the hullabalo of modern life, if they are properly developed.

In fact in Tamilnadu near Vellore, I read that a project is under implementation, set up by some Brahmins to create ideal 'agrahArams' (brahmin streets) in a large, rural residential area, where people will lead a Vedic life. I understand that land has been bought and booking for plots has started.

Our ancient and time-honoured culture and tradition today stops at the five star hotels providing traditional cuisine and the western tourists flocking the miniature traditional homes set up by our tourism departments.

So, if we create opportunies of 'preferences' for people, between the happy and peaceful way of a life dharma and the vice-ridden modern life, at least those with traditional propensities will be at peace. There is no need for forceful conversion or imposition or education of the varNa system. People will eventually learn from and take to the models created.

Umpteen models are created for experiment and research in science, humanities and arts--the model of the 'big bang' at CERN that has now stopped with a whimper is a case in point. Why can't we create such models for our cultural and traditional life?

Even in our individual, daily life, we can do something: let us try with all members of our family to live a life of dharma of the varNa we belong to, as best as we can, at least one day in a month. I don't mean the occupation of the varNa here, only the cultivation of qualities of character the varNa dharma teaches. As a common dharma to all of us, we can try to avoid the luxuries of western influence on that day: wear our traditional clothes, take our traditional bath, self-wash our clothes, pray in our traditional ways and times at home, cook our traditional, vegetarian food (better if our women use 'ammi'--grinding stone and roller--instead of the electric mixer), avoid watching TV, even using the computer and the Net, (but I think we can use our cassette and CD players to listen to devotional songs), read our scriptural books--thus spend a day in peace and bliss.



Avoidance of all luxuries of technology and industrialization? We're able to make this statement with the help of technology! Besides, wealth cannot be generated with this attitude.


I only talked about the 'luxury'--not 'necessaries'--of technology. Yes, I reiterate my statement. No one including the wealthy political and business people all over the world need to lead a life of luxury. There must be system that self-regulates such life. All the wealth created should be used for providing and sustaining the basic amenities of life to everyone all the world over, crossing geographical and political borders. If science and technology can't feed the hungry and poor all over the world and raise their status of life, of what use it is for humanity? Why should its fruits be enjoyed only by the affluent and the greedy? Whatever the political ideology--communism, socialism, free market--that the world governments follow, if democracy cannot ensure basic amenities for everyone, how can it be deemed a successful and effective form of government?



Since western culture has pervaded almost every country in the world, isn't that evidence that it's superior? And if it's superior to other systems of thought, why can't we embrace it?


Yes, yes, western culture is 'superior' and people of all the varNas are actively embracing it in India. The aggressiveness and the governmental back up provide no alternatives even for people who have old propensities.



Why must we extend Hinduism to politics as well? Let it be a religion and nothing more.


Hinduism is not just a religion, it is a way of life, in all areas, and that includes politics. Even during the times of monarchy, sages and rishis have guided the king. In ancient India, there was no separation between the state and religion --it is an unsuccessful western concept--because everyone including the King was bound by the Hindu Dharma.



Put simply, let's be Hindus by religion and westerners by culture. That way, we can keep our glorious traditions alive, plus reap the benefits of a superior western system. We can have the best of both worlds.


1. If we need to be Hindus, we can't all be westerners by culture! This was why Nehru did not consider himself a Hindu. Already we are MUCH MORE westernized than needed: we enter our temples wearing western clothes, do not remove our socks, our young girls in India and abroad these days don't think it is trendy to wear a bindi on their forehead or a string of flowers to perfume their hair, the Christian schools promptly restrict such cultural activities for their Hindu students, we prefer pop and rock music to our own bhajans and Karnatic music, watch the English movies (I do this a lot these days!), prefer English to our mother tongue even in domestic conversation, consider it civilized to eat beef and pork and drink whisky and beer in pubs and then dance in the discos, and so on and so forth. What more westernanization do you want?

2. Yes, the sad truth is that we are Hindus by a nominal show of religion and westerners by a pompous show of their culture in ours. Unfortunately, this 'superior' western culture has in no way kept our glorious traiditions alive; it is by our partially reaping the 'benefits of a superior western system' that we are fast losing the best of both worlds.

TatTvamAsi
30 September 2008, 11:44 PM
The difference is: this seemingly endless loop is necessary for evolution. Or else, medical marvels wouldn't be possible today. Or political revolutions such as the transition from dictatorship to democracy, the separation of church and state, and the rest. But persisting with caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better. Hence, the comparison doesn't hold good.

The 'evolution' is needed only for something that is imperfect from the get-go. As Saidevo already stated, VarnAshramA DharmA, as affirmed in the Scriptures, is completely natural! Hence, any change or evolution to the orginal is a corruption of its intial intent & purport.

Secondly, who is to decide "caste system has NOT led to any changes for the better"? In what situation? In who's perspective? It is in fact ONLY because of the caste system that Hindu society has survived and continues to do so even today!


This is the problem, you see? Not many Hindus are going to believe in scriptures, much less in its supposed flawlessness.

What? The supremacy of the Vedas has never been questioned by any Hindu! Although that sounds like a typical line from an asura like a christian or muslim, Vedas are apaurusheya; that which is not created! That is why our 'religion' is called "Sanatana Dharma"; or timeless order! Unlike the christians/muslims and other asuras, one does not have to 'believe in' the Vedas for its validity. The only time they are questioned are by ignorant people; who have not realized the nature of reality. The Vedas, or any of the other Scriptures, are merely an affirmation of THAT!


...
Or, we must educate them, which is a near impossible task:(, considering the texts are in Sanskrit. Educating millions in this matter would require enormous amount of time, money, and energy.

That is indeed the solution. Physically fighting asuras is futile and that would be a losing battle. The fight must be education to illumine and kindle the interest, understanding, and inspiration in every Hindu on this planet!




Avoidance of all luxuries of technology and industrialization? We're able to make this statement with the help of technology! Besides, wealth cannot be generated with this attitude.

Although technology is extremely helpful for the 'average' person, it is a hinderance to the sAdhakA; as it draws one outwards. Technology, wealth, power, etc. are inversely proportional to spirituality and the ability to gain an even temperament or as the wise say, "equanimity of mind". I don't think Saidevo ever claimed to be a sage or a renunciate! In fact, most of the original thoughts, ideas, and even inventions have come from India! Without the numeral system, especially ZERO, there would be no computers! Without Baudhayana's Sulba sUtrAs, the binary system would have only been 'discovered' much later or worse.

With the example I gave before in this forum, "Kobe Bryant should keep playing basketball & Steve Schwarzman should keep managing money; imagine if they traded places!" That would be disastrous! This is the basis of Varna Dharma.

I suggest you read more about it instead of just arguing inanely about this topic that has already been beaten to death!

Subham.

atanu
30 September 2008, 11:47 PM
-Since western culture has pervaded almost every country in the world, isn't that evidence that it's superior? And if it's superior to other systems of thought, why can't we embrace it?



Namaste Regress,

Ya. The truth is that the Eastern contries are subsidizing and sustaining the the so-called superior. And our beloved PM, who has another beloved, is the prop for the sutaining mechanism. He runs here and there so that business elsewhere can flourish and Indians gloat on their accomplishments munching potato chips, sipping soda water and answering calls in BPO with American accents.

About 20 years back, I reached a destination from my home in about 20 minutes with a pleasant mind intact. Now, it takes 2 and half hours, accompanied with unspeakable language and rage all around.

This is not progress. This is destruction.
-----------------

Sorry for the outburst. It is an expression of a personal discomfort and discontentment.

The one who is the owner of this Universe knows how to run it.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
01 October 2008, 12:22 AM
chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

Namaste Friends,

The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. OTOH, a Shudra rebels at the injustice. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

-----------------


Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

This small post got lost.

Infinite Regress
01 October 2008, 12:59 AM
Thanks for all your views. It's helped me a great deal.

All I am saying is: Most Hindus today believe caste system has to become fluid, in that people should be allowed to do what they want. Meaning, if shudra wants to become Brahmin, he must be allowed to do so. But if this happens, caste system would have no meaning.

OTOH, if the system is kept rigid, problems like reservations crop up, ruining people from all castes, especially the brahmins and forward castes.

This is what I am wondering about. There seems to be no solution.

devotee
01 October 2008, 01:39 AM
Namaste Saideo, Atanu, TatTvamAsi & all,

I think my views are completely different from all of you.

I will like to say a few things :

i) Should we accept everything whatever is written in our scriptures without examining whether it is really relevant today or not ?
ii) Should we accept whatever our predecessors told without keeping in view that things which might be perfectly ok in the past may not be ok in today's environment ?
iii) Have we not seen many people born in a Brahmin family indulging in abominable tasks ? Are they Brahmins in true sense ?
iv) By the logic of Saideoji, a Shudra by birth should do the work which was being done by his forefathers (Please correct me, if I am wrong), even if he is par excellence in intelligence & knowledge ? And by the same the logic a Brahmin/Khsatriya by birth who is even incapable of reading & writing should get the highest place in administration ?

I have no doubt that this is the worst kind of descrimination a policy of apartheid, we are unjustly using against the hapless so called lower-caste people. It is not only against them but it is not healthy for our society & nation as well.

Social rules should not be guided by the rules of the past. We must see it different from spirituality, the rules of which cannot change. We should not advocate continuity of a wrong system by quoting some scriptures thousands of years old or saying of someone who was born in some remote past. Let's be fair & say, what is the difference in the God which is in the Shudra & that which is in a brahmin ? If we say that God decided a man to give birth in lower caste for doing menial works only then why does he give equally good brains to them too & why he doesn't make all brahmins highly intelligent ? Why the talent is evenly distributed in the society without any cosideration of caste by birth ? If God really wanted this caste by birth system why this knowledge was not given to other majority of Non-Hindu population ?

This caste by birth system reminds me of cruel thinking in Christianity wherein it was said that teh black people didn't have soul !

Regards

OM

atanu
01 October 2008, 03:15 AM
Namaste Saideo, Atanu, TatTvamAsi & all,
I think my views are completely different from all of you.
I will like to say a few things :

) Should we accept everything whatever is written in our scriptures without examining whether it is really relevant today or not ?
-OM

Namaste Devotee,

I think that we are saying almost the same thing.



chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."

Namaste Friends,



"It is dangerous to discard traditional rules of conduct. Try to think and understand their significance."

Shri Ramana


The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

-----------------

It is up to the individual ego to understand this way or that way and be responsible for the strifes or for the illumination.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya


The point is that one cannot wish away the Varna differences that are inherent in the Universe owing to their origin from the Lord Himself. It is up to us, whether we concentrate on the differences and forget the ONE. Or whether we see ONE sutra.

Om

devotee
01 October 2008, 05:34 AM
The point is that one cannot wish away the Varna differences that are inherent in the Universe owing to their origin from the Lord Himself. It is up to us, whether we concentrate on the differences and forget the ONE. Or whether we see ONE sutra.


Namaste Atanu,

I agree with you. The Varna differences cannot be wished away ... the differences of intellect, capabilities are the realities of life. In fact, Varna differences, IMO, is an essential ingredient for Maya / World to continue.

... But as you say, let's concentrate on the ONE where all differences dissolve.

Regards.


But it's true that Indians often do this due to a complex they suffer wrt westerners.

Namaste IR,

Let's not generalise this in this manner. It is not due to the complex we suffer wrt westerners. It has more to do with "agressive assertion". The Indian Culture has been under attack from the westerners for thousands of years. The Hindus are asserting themselves by going to their roots. There is nothing wrong in it. Which society, which Nation, Which civilisation can live with pride without being proud of its past ? The inner strength must come from our roots. That is why in every nation there are National Heros, Great personalities, inspiring stories which make you proud of your race & your nation. However, there is no need to be unnecessarily agressive. That is all.

OM

saidevo
01 October 2008, 06:46 AM
Namaste Devotee.



i) Should we accept everything whatever is written in our scriptures without examining whether it is really relevant today or not?


The speciality of Hinduism is the freedom it gives to the individual, even to criticize the scriptures and choose not to follow them and still remain a Hindu. But when individuals do not agree as to what is relevant to the times, it is best left to our Acharyas--not the politicians, governments, courts--to decide.



ii) Should we accept whatever our predecessors told without keeping in view that things which might be perfectly ok in the past may not be ok in today's environment ?


Again this is an individual decision, and individuals rarely have a consensus, which is the reason we let even criminals to contest elections, make them win, and become ministers.



iii) Have we not seen many people born in a Brahmin family indulging in abominable tasks ? Are they Brahmins in true sense ?

iv) By the logic of Saideoji, a Shudra by birth should do the work which was being done by his forefathers (Please correct me, if I am wrong), even if he is par excellence in intelligence & knowledge ? And by the same the logic a Brahmin/Khsatriya by birth who is even incapable of reading & writing should get the highest place in administration ?


Certainly those Brahmins do not study, preach or practice the Vedas? You want such bad guys cast out of the brahmin caste, and this to be decided by popular voting or by the politicians or the government or courts?

Many of us (including me) are oftentimes confused between varNa (class) and jAti (caste); we take the terms to be synonymous and confuse ourselves. Here is an interesting discussion with a refreshingly new outlook as to why varNa or class IS NOT decided by birth and why jAti or caste IS decided by birth:

Is Varna system by birth or karma
http://www.satyavidya.org/component/content/article/29-miscellaneous/74-is-varna-system-by-birth-or-karma

Going by the above discussion, which seems logical, a man from the brahmin caste who does not study, teach and practice the Vedas loses his brahmin varNa though still retaining his caste. He might possibly be born in a caste that suits him better in the next birth. A man from a caste that falls under the shudra varNa may read/learn/study/research the Vedas, but as I said earlier, the onus of his capability of teaching and practicing them is on him only, subject to approval by the Acharyas and Vedic pandits. Any person in any caste might take up a profession that does not commensurate with his/her varNa and still retain his/her caste, though the varNa changes. I think this is fair enough to satisfy people on both sides of the debate.



The Varna differences cannot be wished away ... the differences of intellect, capabilities are the realities of life. In fact, Varna differences, IMO, is an essential ingredient for Maya / World to continue.

... But as you say, let's concentrate on the ONE where all differences dissolve.


Amen to that!

reflections
01 October 2008, 07:18 AM
Very well balanced Saidevo.
By the way, how do we say Amen in Hinduism?

Tathastu is also not appropriate, as tathastu will be said by gods/godess while accepting prayers.

saidevo
01 October 2008, 07:42 AM
Namaste Reflections.

For 'amen' we say 'aum' three times in the Kanchi Forum. The Sanskrit dictionaries give these three terms as the equivalent of 'amen':

aum, svAhA, tatAstu

(http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche)

devotee
01 October 2008, 08:16 AM
Namaste Saideoji,

Thanks for the explanation. :)

Regards,

OM

reflections
01 October 2008, 08:37 AM
Namaste, Thanks a lot for the help.
I read through the article, you posted from satyavidya.org.
It is very informative. Jaathi and Varna are not only misunderstood by non Hindus but also by Hindus. Do we have a place in forum, just to store informative articles? We can keep this one there.


Namaste Reflections.

For 'amen' we say 'aum' three times in the Kanchi Forum. The Sanskrit dictionaries give these three terms as the equivalent of 'amen':

aum, svAhA, tatAstu

(http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche)

vcindiana
12 October 2008, 10:49 PM
This is my take:

God did create 4 divisions (Varnas). The intent was clear. God recognizes every one of us being special. One has to be an expert in Teaching, other one in Business other in defense and another in housekeeping. A teacher cannot be an expert in Housekeeping and vice versa. Each person is given an (spiritual) unique or special gift. God wants each one of us to use the special gift to contribute for a greater cause. There is no hierarchy here and everyone is equal to God. This is nothing to do with the birth. Creating only 4 divisions is only history. If Krishna were to be here today , he would divide us into thousands of ‘castes’, aeronautical engineers, soft ware engineers, sewage specialists, interior designers, hotel management specialists, proctologists, gynecologists, plumbing specialists etc…etc.. etc… you name it

Love………….VC

satay
13 October 2008, 12:16 AM
namaskar,


Creating only 4 divisions is only history. If Krishna were to be here today , he would divide us into thousands of ‘castes’, aeronautical engineers, soft ware engineers, sewage specialists, interior designers, hotel management specialists, proctologists, gynecologists, plumbing specialists etc…etc.. etc… you name it

Love………….VC

All of those 'jobs' can be categorized in the four varnas as indicated by the Lord.

Please stop with your subtle attacks on Hindu doctrines.

Tyrannos
26 November 2008, 07:30 AM
Why should the system of the Castes ever be fought? a similar question seems absurd to me. The castes have been established by the Gods, the institutions of Vishnu; they are Divine Laws, and to go against the Divine Laws means to go against the Dharma and against the Gods.
Hail,
Tyrannos

vcindiana
07 March 2009, 01:08 PM
I find numerous misunderstandings about the rebirth, karma, Gunas and the Varna classification. I wish Geeta was clear on these matters. Some (People like RadhaKrishnan) define Varna is nothing to do with birth. The emphasis is on guna (aptitude) and karma (function) and not on jaati (birth). ( BG Ch 4 verse 13 )The Varna or the order to which we belong is independent of sex, birth or breeding. A caste is determined by temperament and vocation - not by birth or heredity. Some even say originally Varna was assigned to people based on their aptitude and qualities but in later periods they were assigned based on birth.

The opposite view is expressed in http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap3.htm (http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part20/chap3.htm) and it vehemently says that “Sri Krishna establishes that an individual owes his caste to his birth. There should not be the slightest doubt about it” WOW!! I guess this comes from the concept that Soul at the time of death departs the body taking all the Gunas developed by the activities so far gone through. This is how Rajagopalachari puts it. ( BG Ch15 verse 8)
These are conflicting ideas and very confusing and I see good arguments on both sides. But if Geeta is going to give clear answer there has to be one TRUTH.

Personally I tend to favor the first idea as it make more contemporary sense as we view God’s love is there for every one.

I hope some of you has a clear answer.

Love ...... VC

Hiwaunis
07 March 2009, 09:43 PM
Namaste,
This is a long post. Please bear with me. I have a friend who belongs to a small village, he is very intelligent and made has made a good progress in his life. But, I was shocked by some of his attitudes. Please see our conversation.

he: I don't like new policies where education is accesible to all.
Our toilet cleaner's sons are having good jobs, so the mother have stopped working as a toiler cleaner.

me: Isn't that good?

he: No, but initially they were polite and always sat on the floor when they come to home as guests. Now they have started sitting on Chairs.

me: who so ever comes to my place receives a good hospitality. Why should a lower caste person should not sit on the chair?

he: Yes, but toilet cleaning, garbage collection etc. are also tasks to be done, and who will do that?

me: come on, if my son does not have brains, he will do menial works. If toilet cleaner's son has brains, he will do a reputed job.

he: No, but they are born to do that job.

I did not continue the discussion.

So, this is not to bash my dear friend, but there are many many people like him. How to change people's attitude where they think that they have God given right to treat other's as subhuman.

Pranam,
Why can't your friend clean his own toilet and take out his own garbage? If indeed the so called lower caste become educated or able to get a better job then so be it. You then must find/pay someone else to be a sanitation worker. If we look down on someone, someone else will just look down on us.

How is it that we think that we do anything of ourselves? We can't change anything that God has created without HIS/HER permission. After all, All is God, God is still in charge.

Namaste,

Eastern Mind
08 March 2009, 08:25 AM
Namaste all:

It is basically fact that casteism, racism, sexism, ageism, etc is with us for whatever reason. Personally I see it as a tool for our own character development or spiritual unfoldment, allowed to happen through God's gift of a keen observation. Remember that this is the kaliyuga after all. Here are some of my observations:
1) In general the older you are, the less likely you are to be able to change. This is because the subconscious mind solidifies with each new impression, like clay hardens over time. Attempting to change an older person stuck in his/her ways is a total waste of good energy. Frankly, it ain't gonna happen.
2) People have difficulty looking into mirrors. Often one thinks he is 'higher' or 'lower' than he/she would be seen by others. Rich idiots illustrate this. A rich famous man might be totally unvirtuous, a thief, condescending, not willing to be charitable etc, and the rest of us who look at him see him as 'low' whilst he retains his pomposity of his self inflicted highness.
3) One person's low caste is another's high. There are the stories of how Gandhi served tea to the British pomp, and how he joyfully cleaned the latrines in SA.
4) Change is best induced by example, provided the person observing you is able. We really have no business analysing the behaviour of others unless it is to learn so we can improve our own behaviour. Unless we have mystical siddhis we cannot take on other's karma.
5) Caste/class remains dependant on cultural norms within a given culture, and hence in this ongoing intercultural mixing, it gets even more confusing. I remember my Mauritian lawyer friend being extremely surprised that a lawyer here in Canada didn't have a house servant, yet both scenarios are perfectly normal within each respective culture.

Just my two bits...sorry for rambling. Aum Namasivaya

atanu
08 March 2009, 11:07 PM
Personally I tend to favor the first idea as it make more contemporary sense as we view God’s love is there for every one.

I hope some of you has a clear answer.

Love ...... VC

The view of Radhakrishnan and Kamakoti saint are not opposites. That is the irony of partial understanding as per one's wish and preference. And that is the work of Guna.

Varna, acquired through good or bad karma, decides/infuences the kula-jati-ambience-environment-path-support system etc. etc. for the mind of the jivatma.

The karma-varna-kula are interlinked. God ensures the linkage. It is called daivam but it is karma to start with for the jiva.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
11 March 2009, 12:00 PM
Varna, acquired through good or bad karma, decides/infuences the kula-jati-ambience-environment-path-support system etc. etc. for the mind of the jivatma.
Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste VC

Yet, karma and ignorance are not eternal and ends for a particular jiva, with right knowledge or more correctly with the removal of the darkness of ignorance that "I am a doer".

The evils of so-called inequality termed as casteism for Hindus and class discrimination universally, is anAdimat -- without a beginning. This evil is created by ego, is for ego, and is perceived by ego. Trying to reform externally is like fighting with oneself, which is actually infinite and thus whatever one sees is within the Mahat - the Lord Mind, which got created by the powers of the Self to give expression to sprouting of seeds of love.

No jiva, untill the ignorance reigns as the king, is beyond karma and thus beyond caste or class. But the Jnanis are called atiashrami and casteless.

Thus, I think, to uproot the evils of caste or inequalities of class one must first uproot the inequalities of "I" and "They" and "We" and "Them" and get established in Pragnya -- be a stithipragnya. Pragnyaghana -- the wisdom unbroken by thoughts is homogeneous, samAn. To become fit to become stithipragnya, one's karma must be finished as worship.

Om Namah Shivaya

izi
20 March 2009, 10:30 AM
How is it that we think that we do anything of ourselves? We can't change anything that God has created without HIS/HER permission. After all, All is God, God is still in charge.

Yeah that's part of the effing problem - GOD says this GOD says that

it's all a bunch of bs

God is us - take responsibility

(not directed at the original poster)

"There is no god but man"

amra
21 March 2009, 12:24 PM
These days people are fed so many desires and illusions by the media, primarily through the inculcation of western ideas. Someone whose capacity extends to only being able to clean toilets, is brainwashed into thinking he can be some sort great emperor or something of that sort. The effects of advertising also create low desires in people and give them an unrealistic view of life. If a person becomes full of these taints due to his/her weakness, what is essential in that person is covered up by many false ideas. This essential part of a person is what caste refers to. Men are not born equal. It is only because of kaliyuga people cannot tell instinctively what caste another man is. People if they lived as they should, would instinctively know their place. If theoretically I was free of all false ideas and desires about myself and I met another also who was, we would both instinctively know the whose caste was superior. The Caste system has never gone away it is still there it is us humans that have degenerated.

Eastern Mind
21 March 2009, 05:53 PM
Amra: What you say makes a lot of sense ... from a mountaintop perspective. Character determines caste, or at least 'should determine caste, not birth. But here in the Kaliyuga it is much more complicated, no? Individuals, because of the bombardment of ideas from all over the place, all the cultures on the planet in some sort of way, probably, have a variety of caste within themselves. Take JFK, for instance. Extremely low caste regarding promiscuity, sexual restraint etc. And yet, from his position, he had the ability to change things, and did a lot for worker's rights, minority rights etc. So now its complicated. Even auras are more complicated, or so I've been told. But your comments made me think .. which I suppose could be a good thing.

Not sure if I'm in the fight ... castesim, that is. Surely I am an observer from my limited perspective.

Aum Namsivaya

amra
22 March 2009, 05:11 AM
I would not use the word complicated but the the word 'mixed-up'. This mixed up world we all now live in is a great test for all of humanity, a test where failure means extinction. Caste has no meaning any more, people have to realise who they really are themselves, expect no help from outside agencies and take responsibility for your own development.

dera2
04 April 2009, 01:46 AM
Namaste Devotee,

I think that we are saying almost the same thing.
chaturvarNayaM maya sRuShtaM guNakarmavibhAgaShaH |
tasya kartAramapi mAM viddhyakartAramavyayam ||

The Gita verse and also the one from Purusha Suktam are amenable to two types of views:

View A. God has instituted the varna system and thus my Brahmana hood and the associated benefits are justified and the status quo should remain. Or the vice versa (in modern Democracy).

View B. From God is the varna -- beginning with three basic varnas of White, Red, and Black. And these are contained in Him alone. So, where is varna? There is God alone.

The point is that one cannot wish away the Varna differences that are inherent in the Universe owing to their origin from the Lord Himself. It is up to us, whether we concentrate on the differences and forget the ONE. Or whether we see ONE sutra.

Om

Namaste,

I know few women who are inclined towards Buddhism allegedly because a woman is not allowed to even chant gayatri? Is it true?

Pretnath
04 April 2009, 11:44 AM
Namast all :grouphug:

So you all are thinking about varnashram etc. Ideas to fight casteism?

I have a better idea for this but lower castes are themselves unwilling to accept it. They do not want equality themselves

Eastern Mind
04 April 2009, 05:28 PM
Once again we have generalizations. I personally think the higher classes purposefully use the lack of education as a tool to keep the status quo. In imperialist China, the peasants remained an uneducated lot. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Marxist, but.. (Actually, I favour social democracy via education, not guns. Use the Gandhian guilt trip until the rich themselves work towards a greater equality of man.) In the great Chinese revolution, the following question was repeatedly asked of the workers. :Who should reap the fruits of our labour? In other words, why is the Emperor living so lavishly whilst we work so hard? I'm sure the emperor and his cronies went around promoting the idea that the peasants enjoyed working the fiields. But did they really? I may ber a cynic but even in America, I think there is a reason education is underfunded. In fact, you need money (or gifted athletic ability)to go to university. Its well researched statistically that the voters who vote Democrat on average are higher educated. To maintain the class structure difference, the last thing you want anyone to get is an education. Heaven forbid. So personally, I think its a copout to say lower castes want it that way. Get off your high horse and become charitable at least.

Aum Namasivaya

atanu
18 April 2009, 10:50 PM
Namaste,

I know few women who are inclined towards Buddhism allegedly because a woman is not allowed to even chant gayatri? Is it true?

Namaste dera2,

I think it is not true as is explained in the link below:
http://rkmissionashrama.org/posts/can-ladies-chant-the-gayatri-mantra/597/

I have also read an answer given by Shri Shri Ravishankar that women can chant Gayatri, if Guru initiates it.

Om