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reflections
14 October 2008, 11:36 AM
Namaste,
I have some questions regarding Karma principle. I would be grateful if someone can answer those.

1. I know best prayers are those which are 'Nishkam' but some of us also pray for getting relief from wordly troubles. Many of us have seen prayers working. But, previous Karmas plays pevotal role in deciding what good or bad will happen to the person. So how the prayer works in this case?

2. Can bad karmas be mitigated by sincere Prayaschit, or once committed the doer has to bear the bad fruits of it anyway?

Jai Shri Krishna,

Regards,
reflections

atanu
15 October 2008, 03:14 AM
Namaste,
I have some questions regarding Karma principle. I would be grateful if someone can answer those.

1. I know best prayers are those which are 'Nishkam' but some of us also pray for getting relief from wordly troubles. Many of us have seen prayers working. But, previous Karmas plays pevotal role in deciding what good or bad will happen to the person. So how the prayer works in this case?

2. Can bad karmas be mitigated by sincere Prayaschit, or once committed the doer has to bear the bad fruits of it anyway?

Jai Shri Krishna,

Regards,

reflections

Namaste Reflections

Hindu scriptures divide karma into three kinds: Sanchita (accumulated), Prarabdha (fruit-bearing) and Kriyamana (current) karma. All kriyamana karmas become sanchita karma upon completion. From this stock of sanchita karma, a handful is taken out to serve one lifetime and this handful of actions, which has begun to bear fruit and which will be exhausted only on their fruit being enjoyed and not otherwise, is known as prarabdha karma. In this way, so long as the stock of sanchita karma lasts, a part of it continues to be taken out as prarabdha karma for being enjoyed in one lifetime, leading to the cycle of birth and death. A Jiva cannot attain moksha until the accumulated sanchita karmas are completely exhausted.

The actions that originate from the three bodies, karana (causal, as you are in deep sleep wherein the desire-nescience hides the self), mental -- as in dream where you have a light body, and gross as in waking life, will have reactions to be experienced. Left to these bodies the karma is never exinguished as Kriyamana karma is eternal for the objects such as bodies. But the karmic reactions do not touch the real you, the unborn bodyless spirit. In many temples, you will see figures embedded on to pillars. These figures may have grotesque grimacing faces as if they are bearing the load of the pillar. This is not true.

There is a view that that God or Sadguru do mitigate the karma. God is fair and gives you exactly what you deserve or what you most need. Actions do not create karma (good or bad) when performed by an individual in the state of Moksha or liberation. Such a person is called "Stithaprajna". Sankara taught that all actions performed by one in the state of Moksha are Dharmic. This echoes the teaching of Shri Krishna as below:





Chapter 18 Bhagavat Gita
"'The Lord stands in the heart region
of all creatures, Arjuna,
causing to move all creatures mounted mechanically by magic.
Go to that shelter with your whole essence, Bharata.
From that grace you will attain supreme peace
and the eternal state.
Thus knowledge more secret than the secret
has been explained to you by me.
Reflecting on this completely, do whatever you wish.
"'Hear from me again the most secret supreme word.
You are surely loved by me;
therefore I shall speak for your benefit.
Become mentally me, devoted to me, sacrificing to me;
revere me, and you will come to me truly;
I promise you; you are my beloved.
Giving up all duties, take shelter in me alone.
I shall liberate you from all evils; do not grieve.Hindus believe that everything in the Universe is in a state of creation, maintenance, or destruction. The mind creates a thought, maintains or follows it for some time, and the thought ultimately dies down (to be replaced by another thought). In addition to the three states of consciousness, Hinduism puts forward a fourth state of being called Turiya or pure consciousness, where the mind is not engaged in thinking but is simply the Seer and totally awake and aware. Actions in the Turiya state do not create karma, as actions are not volitional from the ego but are mere natural happenings taking place in presence of the Self -the Turiya. Meditation is a practice aimed at giving individuals the experience of being in this state.

An individual who is constantly in the Turiya state is said to have attained moksha where their actions happen as natural response to events (and not because of thought process); such actions do not result in accumulation of karma as they have no karmic effect.

Once, the ego is absolutely killed, as in Turiyatita, all three types of karmas are said to drop, similar as expiry of a man causes all his wives to become widows instantaneouly and simultaneously. The karma belongs to Ego and not to the Self.

In summary, karma for the three bodies are mitigated by the grace of God/sadguru. And karmas drop altogether on demise of Ego, which is same as absolute surrender to Lord.

Om Namah Shivaya

reflections
15 October 2008, 08:15 AM
Namaste,
Thanks a lot for the answer. Explanation of 3 types of karma was particularly good.

- However, how to save one's self from arrogance in good times? Like if someone is blessed with superior intelligent or riches, s/he might think that those who don't have, are inferior in terms of Karma.

- How Hinduism instructs us to behave with those who are suffering from distress, illness, financial struggles etc?

Jai Shri Krishna

regards,
reflections.

atanu
15 October 2008, 10:32 AM
Namaste,
Thanks a lot for the answer. Explanation of 3 types of karma was particularly good.

- However, how to save one's self from arrogance in good times? Like if someone is blessed with superior intelligent or riches, s/he might think that those who don't have, are inferior in terms of Karma.

- How Hinduism instructs us to behave with those who are suffering from distress, illness, financial struggles etc?

Jai Shri Krishna

regards,
reflections.

Namaste Reflections,

You are welcome.

You have pointed out two very important aspects. For the first one, I feel that study of Hindu scriptures and especially Gita, will give protection. Good time or bad time, it helps to remember that the body-mind is not me and i have created neither the life nor the intelligence. What is given may be taken away in a trice. For the second point, all religions prescribe compassion.

Om

reflections
15 October 2008, 11:04 AM
Namaste atanu,
This is very sensible answer. Howevr, I have seen the people, who says 'it is his/her Karma' to those who are suffering, especially to widows etc.
So I wonder, whether this principle is true. and if it is true, why do people apply it this way?

And one more question: Till a person does not let go off ego, s/he wil not realize brahman. We do believe Rama krishna paramhamsa, Raman Maharshi etc. did realize Brahman. That means all their Karma has fallen off. Still they suffered because of Cancer? So, I always wonder why.

Jai Shri Krishna.
Regarrds,
reflections



Namaste Reflections,

You are welcome.

You have pointed out two very important aspects. For the first one, I feel that study of Hindu scriptures and especially Gita, will give protection. Good time or bad time, it helps to remember that the body-mind is not me and i have created neither the life nor the intelligence. What is given may be taken away in a trice. For the second point, all religions prescribe compassion.

Om

atanu
15 October 2008, 12:27 PM
Namaste atanu,
And one more question: Till a person does not let go off ego, s/he wil not realize brahman. We do believe Rama krishna paramhamsa, Raman Maharshi etc. did realize Brahman. That means all their Karma has fallen off. Still they suffered because of Cancer? So, I always wonder why.

Jai Shri Krishna.
Regarrds,
reflections

Namaste Reflections,

This is difficult to answer. Attainment of Brahman and the perfect body have no commonality. As we have already discussed that the karma is applicable on the three bodies throughout their existence. Like a potter's wheel, which keeps rotating even after the potter has stopped applying force on the wheel, on account of inertia, the bodies will be subjected to the Prarabdha Karma till they last. Rama apparently suffered all along. He finally left the body in a way that would be termed suicide in present day parlance. Shri Krishna also showed the world that the body is fragile and has to go.

We onlookers see the body and ascribe the body to Ramana. It is true that observable actions of Ramana originated from the body, but Ramana (or rather Brahman, if you consider Him a Brahma Vid) is/was not the body. Brahma vid sages are all pervading spirit.

Some people also opine that these sages showed the devotees, directly, the transcendence over their bodies and its pains. Some also opine that when a sadguru graces a devotee, He takes upon His body some of devotee's bad karma. This has been reported of many Christian mystics also. Sometimes I feel that biologically, these very sensitive souls are pre-disposed to some such bodily trouble.

Regards

Om

Eastern Mind
15 October 2008, 05:47 PM
- How Hinduism instructs us to behave with those who are suffering from distress, illness, financial struggles etc?




reflections.

This one always stirs my sense of understanding karma. Firstly, we should be much more aware of our own karma than the karma of others. Secondly, what is to say that it isn't their karma for someone like us to jump in and help. I think the misunderstanding that "its just their karma" is oversimplified and often used as an excuse to not offer assistance, which is kind of sad. Of course it is impossible to take on everyone's karma, but that doesn't mean we should just sit back and judge without showing compassion. Aum Namasivaya

atanu
16 October 2008, 01:17 AM
Namaste atanu,
This is very sensible answer. Howevr, I have seen the people, who says 'it is his/her Karma' to those who are suffering, especially to widows etc.
So I wonder, whether this principle is true. and if it is true, why do people apply it this way?

And one more question: Till a person does not let go off ego, s/he wil not realize brahman. We do believe Rama krishna paramhamsa, Raman Maharshi etc. did realize Brahman. That means all their Karma has fallen off. Still they suffered because of Cancer? So, I always wonder why.

Jai Shri Krishna.
Regarrds,
reflections

Namaste Reflections,

Eastern Mind has provided a comprehensive answer to the first query.

Regarding the second query I wish to add further to my yesterday's post. A Turiyatita sage -- a Brahma-Vid (knower of Brahman) is Brahman. We onlookers know such a sage as the mere body but that is not true.

Such a sage's form is the whole Universe but He is not touched by the Universe. Your body and my bodies are also His bodies and since you or me may not be able to handle some pains, He mutates such karma, out of compassion, to a body where the mind will withstand the pain. Surely, such grace is on account of good karma. Sadguru is known as karuna avatar -- the incarnation of compassion.

This is the real significance of Lord Shiva accepting the poison and Christ's body on the cross. The confusion to us occurs because we have no clue of subtle-all-pervading reality of the sage. Sage's body that you and me see is just one of His bodies, which however does not bind the sage.

The differece between Christianity and the Eastern religions begins from here. The Christian religions demand proof of magic from their sages. In Eastern religions, a true Guru will never do a magic on his own. For the true Eastern Guru, who is Turiyatita, the actions are not his but actions merely happen in his presence. So, in many cases He will seem to allow the devotee to bear the effects of karma and in some other cases He will appear to intervene.

Actually in both the cases, the Sage has done nothing. This may be difficult to assimilate, till one knows oneself to be subtle. One can perceive the Universe and its nature from one's level only. An individual mind harbouring with surety the notion "I am this body" will not be able to understand this. As the mind begins its quest towards its origin, the subtle starts to dominate.

I add that Shri Ramana was requested to remove his bodily illness. He said that there was no individual to will so (meaning: May God's will prevail).

Regards and Best Wishes.

Om

reflections
16 October 2008, 05:20 AM
Thanks a lot Atanu and EasternMind!!

reflections
16 October 2008, 09:47 AM
So, If I see some one suffering, is following attitude compatible with Hinduism?
"Whatever Karma this perosn has done, does not touch his self who is part and parcel of Brahman. This person is learning his lessons from suffering. One day, after many births, there will be a day when I and he both will realize our true self. Till then, It is God who is manifesting himself in various forms, like poor or widow or ill so that I can serve him and work out my own karma."

amra
22 November 2008, 01:23 PM
A person creates karma through maya, through his illusion, karma is illusion. To 'help' someone suffering is not possible. You are just trapping yourself thinking whether you should help him or not. You help, its karma, you don't, its also karma. If you believe you helped him, you make him a debtor in your maya, you ignore him, and your guilty mind makes you in his debt. No doubt people can become hard and seemingly ignore others suffering but becoming a rock may have less karma, but who wants to be a stone?

PRABHU P
06 December 2008, 10:05 AM
Namasthe veiwers,

It is true that all the people have born to remove the burden of their karma but however most of them add to their Karma whether it is good or bad. The idea is that though the people suffer or enjoy out of their karma if a person engages himself in helping the people in distress he helps himself for his chitha suddhi. What I feel is that it is a form of Nishkamya Karma to remove the burden of our karma.

Regarding the sufferings of Gnani they are in Sahaja Smadhi and the suffering are only to the body and the suffering do not bother them in any way. The Ramana Bhagavn has said that it can be realised only if one attains the state of samadhi.

With regards PRABHU P

santosh
02 January 2009, 05:17 PM
So, If I see some one suffering, is following attitude compatible with Hinduism?
"Whatever Karma this perosn has done, does not touch his self who is part and parcel of Brahman. This person is learning his lessons from suffering. One day, after many births, there will be a day when I and he both will realize our true self..."


Very well said. The suffering in this material world is inevitable. All suffering is due to our own bad karma in previous lives. Like they say - what goes around, comes around. However, as it is already said by others in their previous posts, when we see someone else suffering, eventhough we know that suffering is due to their own previous karma, we still try to help them out in whatever capacity we have. Our compassion to all others is a must, regardless of whatever reaction they may be suffering from.

Along with helping others materially, we should try to help them spiritually and try to bring them closer to God in whichever capacity we have.



...Till then, It is God who is manifesting himself in various forms, like poor or widow or ill so that I can serve him and work out my own karma."

Generally speaking, God is not manifesting AS poor or widow, But God is testing US through someone who is suffering. If we don't help someone who is in trouble, why should God help us when we are in trouble? However, God is fully independent at all times and He is free to act in whichever way He wants and He may choose to take a guise of poor or widow just to test US out.