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reflections
16 October 2008, 10:01 AM
Namaste Friends,
First of all I apologize if someone finds my thread gross. But, I am really interested to know hinduism's stand on homosexuality.

One one hand we have ideal of monogamous married life, but on the other hand we always accepted presence of 'kinnars' in our puranas.

We believe that we don't realise brahman till we have a tinge of lust or desire left. But, that is also true for opposite gender. And some recent studies show that there are people who are born homosexual. I find Islam's and Christianity stand quite stringent.

I would be great if someone can shade light on this topic.


Jai Shri Krishna!

Regards,
reflections.

Harjas Kaur
17 October 2008, 05:04 AM
Life without true Sikhi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFt4LH8qE0A



sri-bhagavan uvaca
kama esa krodha esa
rajo-guna-samudbhavah
mahasano maha-papma
viddhy enam iha vairinam

"It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into wrath, which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world." ~Bhagavad-Gita 3.37

reflections
17 October 2008, 07:04 AM
Namaste,
Thanks a lot Harjas Kaur,

However my question, lust can also be there between opposite gender, so why special discrimation for Homosexuals atleast in Christianity and Islam? Hence I wanted to know the position of Hinduism.




Life without true Sikhi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFt4LH8qE0A

sri-bhagavan uvaca
kama esa krodha esa
rajo-guna-samudbhavah
mahasano maha-papma
viddhy enam iha vairinam

"It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into wrath, which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world." ~Bhagavad-Gita 3.37

Indra
17 October 2008, 10:27 AM
Namaste reflections,

Im not an expert on hindu scriptures but i will give you my personal opinion on the issue

Im against homosexuality, i think its sinful.

1.Nature/God (However you want to call it) created man and woman. Two different sexes, it is natural for humans to procreate through sexual reproduction. Homosexuality is unnatural sex. If you say the purpose of sex lays in fun not in procreation then every sex is natural even with animals, because its also can make fun for some people.

2.I think having unnatural sex and misusing sex in a unnatural way leads to illness and harm. It harms the soul of us humans and who really exactly knows how much illnesses gay and lesbian sex bears. Is it studied neutral or by liberal pro-homosexual "scientiests"?

3.Homosexuals are a minority on the planet, they are disturbed people.

Indra
17 October 2008, 10:28 AM
Namaste,

Gay and Lesbian practices occured also long ago in history even the bible mentions gay and lesbian sex. But gay and lesbianism as a seperate subculture with their own customs,bars,magazines,tv programmes,shows, holidays (pride parades), own history with their gay/lesbian heroes etc. and their status as a minoritie with special lawful protection and treatment is a modern american/european invention of the 20th century. It is unnormal and where nowhere practiced in history. Most civilized cultures and all world religions condemn homosexual practices. The problem with the homos and liberal fascists is they expect everyone to permute and bless their pervert invention of gay/lesbian subculture. Even churches and religious institutions. They undercuted several churches and religious institutions and enforced their invention and perverted traditional beliefs and customs.

Infinite Regress
18 October 2008, 05:03 AM
Christianity and Islam (and also Judaism) do hold homosexuality to be sinful. This is a despicable, bigoted attitude on the part of Christians/Muslims/Jews, because homosexuals are humans too. But I am not surprised, because semitic faiths have always had such peculiar views.

What I find surprising is that, many people from eastern traditions are also echoing similar ideas. Even Dalai Lama has said something to that effect, though later on, he toned it down to appear moderate. Point is, eastern cultures are also showing signs of becoming more semitic at least with respect to issues such as homosexuality, women's rights, secularism, and many others. Sad indeed.:(

devotee
18 October 2008, 09:17 AM
Namaste,

Gay and Lesbian practices occured also long ago in history even the bible mentions gay and lesbian sex. But gay and lesbianism as a seperate subculture with their own customs,bars,magazines,tv programmes,shows, holidays (pride parades), own history with their gay/lesbian heroes etc. and their status as a minoritie with special lawful protection and treatment is a modern american/european invention of the 20th century. It is unnormal and where nowhere practiced in history. Most civilized cultures and all world religions condemn homosexual practices. The problem with the homos and liberal fascists is they expect everyone to permute and bless their pervert invention of gay/lesbian subculture. Even churches and religious institutions. They undercuted several churches and religious institutions and enforced their invention and perverted traditional beliefs and customs.

Namaste Indra,

Who are you to say whether being a gay or a lesbian is a sin ? Are you a gay or a lesbian ? If not then you have no right to brand these poor souls as sinners. How is choice of sexuality concerned with "right" or "wrong" ?

A hetrosexual forces sex on someone & a homosexual has sex with another homosexual with consent ... who is a sinner ? What is unnatural in that ? Aren't they born in nature ? Are the homosexiuals & lesbians created in laborataries ?? My dear friend, while branding something sinful we forget that it is human tendency to brand anything "bad" or "good" if something is exception to the rule. That is why the left-handers were called "sinisters" ! There was a time when being a poet was considered an evil in Christianity ... the black man was considered without a soul ... taking bath was considered Un-christian !!

Please don't make rules for what you are not. You are free to make rules for yourself ... you are free to decide what is good or bad for yourself ... please do not force it upon others.

OM

yajvan
18 October 2008, 10:54 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste

A wise person told me regarding the gay life style ,

they have confused what they do with who they are.


For me, this resolved doubts in my mind.


pranams

Indra
18 October 2008, 12:32 PM
Namaste devotee,


Namaste Indra,

Who are you to say whether being a gay or a lesbian is a sin ? Are you a gay or a lesbian ? If not then you have no right to brand these poor souls as sinners. How is choice of sexuality concerned with "right" or "wrong" ?
sexual forces sex on someone & a homosexual has sex with another homosexual with consent ... who is a sinner ? What is unnatural in that ? Aren't they born in nature ? Are the homosexiuals & lesbians created in laborataries ?? My dear friend, while branding something sinful we forget that it is human tendency to brand anything "bad" or "good" if something is exception to the rule. That is why the left-handers were called "sinisters" ! There was a time when being a poet was considered an evil in Christianity ... the black man was considered without a soul ... taking bath was considered Un-christian !!

Please don't make rules for what you are not. You are free to make rules for yourself ... you are free to decide what is good or bad for yourself ... please do not force it upon others.

OM

Homosexuality is not only forbidden in the bible but also in quoran and torah, and homosexuality is forbidden in india. The dalai lama condemned also homosexual practices. All world religion condemn homosexuality apart of some sects who exist in every religion like some liberal churches in the west.

Homosexuality causes many problems

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality

Please read the parts on homosexuality and domestic violence, murder and various diseases

Eastern Mind
18 October 2008, 06:00 PM
Homosexuality is not only forbidden in the bible but also in quoran and torah, and homosexuality is forbidden in india. The dalai lama condemned also homosexual practices. All world religion condemn homosexuality apart of some sects who exist in every religion like some liberal churches in the west.

Homosexuality causes many problems

http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality

Please read the parts on homosexuality and domestic violence, murder and various diseases

Namaste all in this debate.

I feel the need to jump in so here goes. A few years back I developed a mutual respect for a colleague at work. After a couple of years she privately came out of the closet to me. She had waited because she was afraid that my being a Hindu (she incorrectly thought that I might react with typical religious homophobic way) would affect (destroy) our relationship. Fortunately it didn't. As usual in such situations, my gut (soul) reaction was to firstly give her a sincere hands together "namaste" and then the western version of same which was a hug.

So then I posed the same question Devotee posed and began researching it on here. I will share a bit of what I found.
Many swamis are against it, in varying degrees, from homophobic to lesser, while some swamis are more tolerant, and then there are many who refuse to talk about it at all, suggesting they have no opinion, or on the big scheme of things it doesn't matter.
There is one openly Gay and Lesbian Vaishnavite association, a support group if you will, who feel disenfranchised.
There is very little clear scripture on the subject, but there are verses that could be interpreted to be on the subject, correctly or not. (Its a bit like asking "What was the poet getting at?" when in reality only the poet himself knows.

There are many myths propogated by the homophobic right, as a "logical reason" for their hatred or in defense of it. Some of these are: "its a lifestyle choice." Well, its not. Who in their right mind would choose to be gay fully knowing the social consequences.

"AIDS is punishment." Females all around the planet are just as at risk.

So I have come to my own conclusions, from my spine, or from my readings which made sense to me. Firstly, we will never fully comprehend until we walk in those shoes. Comprehending is a bit easier as it hits closer and closer to home. Homophobes with children who are gay fit this category. At least some have had unconditional love overtake the homophobia. Others have not. (I personally believe in the law of karma, and it would seem logical that severe homophobes are destined for a lifetime of being gay, unless it is resolved.

We are souls, not physical bodies, and as such gender, and sexual desire/orientation (and a host of other things including race, language, etc.) are irrelevant.

If ours is truly a God of love then we should believe it and adhere to it. how could a God of love create something he did not love? All beings are creatures of God. Aum Namasivaya

vcindiana
18 October 2008, 11:13 PM
To me the issue of Homosexuality can be explained as I see it in BG Ch 4 verses 16-18. In my thread titled “ Inaction in Action and Action in Inaction” I expressed my version of understanding of these verses. Homosexuality is not IDEAL, all religious people condemn this deviant act and they have good reasons to do so. Like other sins this is one of those YOU SHALL NOT things. That means this category of “Not to be homosexual” belongs to “Inactions’’ as per Krishna.

As Mr. C Rajagopalachari puts it, these are only external abstinence. In these Inactions Krishna wants me to find Action, meaning REALITY. What I understand here is to bring our minds into Action or a sense of discernment and finding what is meaningful. As Eastern Mind stated “we will never fully comprehend until we walk in those shoes”, I wonder many times do these people really enjoy being in that segregated and persecuted life style? However much Science is advanced it can never give a satisfactory explanation. We do not know what goes on in the brain of a homosexual. Most of us do not like their lifestyles but we have no rights to condemn their behaviors. Krishna knows as long as we are humans we can never answer the question HOW GOOD AN ABSTINENCE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO PLEASE HIM. Eastern Mind puts it nicely “If ours is truly a God of love then we should believe it and adhere to it. How could a God of love create something he did not love? All beings are creatures (I think children is the better word) of God.”

Love always endures………………………..VC

Harjas Kaur
19 October 2008, 02:25 AM
However my question, lust can also be there between opposite gender, so why special discrimation for Homosexuals atleast in Christianity and Islam? Hence I wanted to know the position of Hinduism.
Since lust exists between opposite gender does this justify pursuing a lifestyle based solely on physical attraction to the sexual characteristics per definition?

Marriage is for the purpose of having a family. What is the purpose of a relationship between people of the same sex? You said it clearly when you said (sorry for the title). What were you sorry about? You were sorry about the sexuality in homosexuality.

http://boifromtroy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/copenhagen-pride-parade-15.jpg
Same sex relationships promote extremes because they are inherently out of balance. People who pursue sensation for it's own sake will always become sensationalists in the end, because they will have to keep pursuing extremes to get the same degree of excitement. Excitement is the aim. Sensuality is the culture. How can this fit within a spiritual paradigm?

Discrimination of homosexuals as a community has to do with cultural taboos and sense of public morality. Homosexuality isn't tolerated in Indian culture or accepted in Indic religions because it violates social taboos and is defined as attraction based on lust for particular physical characteristics of gender, and not for the purpose of establishing a normal family life with raising children as primary aim.

The truth is, many religious teachers will not discriminate against a homosexual person, because authentic spiritual teachers want to bring the humanity closer to God. Even the worst sinner can become the greatest saint. But don't mistake this as toleration or approval of homosexual activities or lifestayle. If someone gets involved in Hindu spirituality through a group like Iskcon or Amma org, I know for a fact they will emphasize either you get married or take sannyas, even though any person, even homosexual is welcome to go there, pray, get closer to God through spiritual practices. A gay person can visit a Gurdwara, but if someone put on a public display of homosexual behavior on Gurdwara grounds, most likely those persons would get the desi beat down. I wouldn't recommend it.


How could a God of love create something he did not love?
Well, in this world we also have asuras, disease, predators, etc. Would you call being born with kidney failure or heart disease a creation of love? Or would it reflect sicknesses due to karmic and genetic imbalance? Not everything that exists is healthy and pure and serving a good purpose. I appreciate the nature of spiders and cobras in the natural order, but I wouldn't want them living in a house with children.


We do not know what goes on in the brain of a homosexual. Most of us do not like their lifestyles but we have no rights to condemn their behaviors.
We absolutely have every right to keep kids away from what is disapproved of. We certainly have every right to disapprove of promiscuous and sensationalized lifestyles which go against the social order. Who says they only have rights and families don't have rights? Who says people don't have a right to choose for themselves the company they keep?


“we will never fully comprehend until we walk in those shoes”, I wonder many times do these people really enjoy being in that segregated and persecuted life style?
Why should everybody have to walk in the shoes of someone doing bad things? No one is segregated and persecuted who doesn't draw attention to themselves. Only those who are forcing something down the public's throat get negative attention. Most people don't want to just hurt someone. But why are groups trying to force society to accept what society doesn't want to accept with flamboyant displays and histrionic gaining of attention? What is with gay pride parades and gay television shows where the central theme is picking up men in bars and all that?

What in the world? People want to be religious. Now it comes to a forum dedicated to discussion of spirituality and people have to defend WHY they disapprove of homosexuality. WHAT DOES FLAMBOYANT SEXUAL LIFESTYLES HAVE TO DO WITH SPIRITUALITY I BEG YOU? WHY DO WE HAVE TO BE DEFENSIVE WHO ARE NOT GOING TO THESE PEOPLE AND PERSECUTING THEM? THEY ARE ANOTHER KIND OF MISSIONARY FORCING AN OUTRAGEOUS VIEWPOINT!

[QUOTE“Unhealthy sexual behaviors occur among both heterosexuals
and homosexuals. Yet the medical and social science evidence
indicate that homosexual behavior is uniformly unhealthy,”
observes Diggs. The sexual activities engaged in by homo-
sexuals inevitably lead to a whole range of viral and bacterial
infections that can result in sterility, cancer, and death.
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/Diseases.pdf.[/QUOTE]




* Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States (5). They make up only 1-2% of the population

* Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the "gay bowel syndrome" (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus

* Of homosexuals questioned in one study reports that 43% admit to 500 or more partners in a lifetime, 28% admit to 1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people, 79% say that half of those partners are total strangers, and 70% of those sexual contacts are one night stands (or, as one homosexual admits in the film "The Castro", one minute stands) (3). Also, it is a favorite past-time of many homosexuals to go to "cruisy areas" and have anonymous sex

* 78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs

* Judge John Martaugh, chief magistrate of the New York City Criminal Court has said, "Homosexuals account for half the murders in large cities"

* Captain William Riddle of the Los Angeles Police says, "30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals"

* 50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals

* Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne

* 37% of homosexuals engage in sadomasochism, which accounts for many accidental deaths. In San Francisco, classes were held to teach homosexuals how to not kill their partners during sadomasochism

* 41% of homosexuals say they have had sex with strangers in public restrooms, 60% say they have had sex with strangers in bathhouses, and 64% of these encounters have involved the use of illegal drugs

* The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75

* The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79.

* About 50% of the women on death row are lesbians.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts



Who are you to say whether being a gay or a lesbian is a sin ? Are you a gay or a lesbian ? If not then you have no right to brand these poor souls as sinners. How is choice of sexuality concerned with "right" or "wrong" ?
Tell that to the thousands of homosexual Catholic priests and the priest molestation scandals. Sexuality for the sake of indulgence is exact opposite of following a spiritual path. Spirituality is about disciplining the physical senses so as to raise the spiritual consciousness. Besides this, MANY sexual activities are harmful to society and therefore considered to be wrong behaviors.


A hetrosexual forces sex on someone & a homosexual has sex with another homosexual with consent ... who is a sinner ? What is unnatural in that ? Aren't they born in nature ? Are the homosexiuals & lesbians created in laborataries ??
Cancer also occurs in nature, but I hardly think anyone would bless it as normal, acceptable and desirable. I would like to meet the mother who proudly introduces her child to friends as a homosexual. Lots of things are sin. Everybody does something wrong in the life. This doesn't mean we should distort the whole of spiritual tradition to make wrong be right so that a subgroup of people can feel "accepted." If you want to compare a rapist and a prostitute, you can. Each has there own degree of wrongness. There are extremely valid reasons why someone should avoid that kind of lifestyle and why society will always consider it wrong.



My dear friend, while branding something sinful we forget that it is human tendency to brand anything "bad" or "good" if something is exception to the rule. That is why the left-handers were called "sinisters" !
Perhaps it has failed to make an impression on you, but Eastern spirituality is singularly based on overcoming human tendancies to gain liberation. I hardly see the 5 evils Guru Nanak Dev Ji speaks about, lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride as being the same thing as being left-handed. I hardly see equivalence with left-handedness as a physical quality as being the same as a homosexual lifestyle which statistically will involve promiscuity, exposure to disease and even sadomasochistic practices.

Just because a man is married to a woman, and decides that the next 15 ladies he see's are so beautiful he must now have sex with them! This is the mentality of the promoters of gay lifestyle. Just because a man is married to a woman doesn't mean he should run off and now have sex with all kinds of men because he discovers he is attracted to them. This whole conversation is a joke.


There was a time when being a poet was considered an evil in Christianity ... the black man was considered without a soul ... taking bath was considered Un-christian !!
If you have Christian hang ups please take it to a Christian forum.


Please don't make rules for what you are not. You are free to make rules for yourself ... you are free to decide what is good or bad for yourself ... please do not force it upon others.
Yes, please take your own advice and stop trying to force this immoral and degraded lifestyle down people's throats. This is not a way to gain acceptance. You are free not to be a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Sikh or a Christian or whatever. You are equally free to be so. But don't think people want to hear all about some flamboyant pornographic sexual lifestyle choice. The only people forcing anything have invented this outrageous conversation. The question was respectfully asked what does Hinduism teach, have some respect for answers you don't want to hear then.

Rules? Do what you want and pay your own price. Isn't that what life is? But if you undertake a spiritual path, you will have to follow some rules. You will have to surrender yourself to someone. You don't want rules, okay fine, but don't call it spirituality. Have you ever even heard of tapasiya? How would this kind of sensation oriented lifestyle even compare with austerities of yoga? Just consider someone like Shivabalayogi who meditated for something like 16 years and legs became crippled from years of meditation. Spiritual teaching is totally the opposite of satisfying every lust for sensation.

Isn't there a homosexual rights forum to discuss all the grievances people have with not being accepted for shoving crazy lifestyle down everybody's throat? You are as accepted as anyone else. If you behave properly and respectfully, no one has any problem. Simple. Law of the land. If you want to hang on your same sex partner and wax poetic about being rejected, I guess you will cry until the cows come home.

vcindiana
19 October 2008, 07:38 AM
To me the issue of Homosexuality can be explained as I see it in BG Ch 4 verses 16-18. In my thread titled “ Inaction in Action and Action in Inaction” I expressed my version of understanding of these verses. Homosexuality is not IDEAL, all religious people condemn this deviant act and they have good reasons to do so. Like other sins this is one of those YOU SHALL NOT things. That means this category of “Not to be homosexual” belongs to “Inactions’’ as per Krishna.

As Mr. C Rajagopalachari puts it, these are only external abstinence. In these Inactions Krishna wants me to find Action, meaning REALITY. What I understand here is to bring our minds into Action or a sense of discernment and finding what is meaningful. As Eastern Mind stated “we will never fully comprehend until we walk in those shoes”, I wonder many times do these people really enjoy being in that segregated and persecuted life style? However much Science is advanced it can never give a satisfactory explanation. We do not know what goes on in the brain of a homosexual. Most of us do not like their lifestyles but we have no rights to condemn their behaviors. Krishna knows as long as we are humans we can never answer the question HOW GOOD AN ABSTINENCE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO PLEASE HIM. Eastern Mind puts it nicely “If ours is truly a God of love then we should believe it and adhere to it. How could a God of love create something he did not love? All beings are creatures (I think children is the better word) of God.”

Love always endures………………………..VC




In this post I erred by stating that we have no rights to condemn their behavior. What I actually wanted to state was that I have no right to condemn them as persons, but not their lifestyles. Having thought more about Action in Inaction, I find it is important to understand them individually and act accordingly. I do know people who are gay but also wonderful people. Ideally I do not like homosexual behavior, nor any one whether one is Hindu or Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh. In Geeta Krishna does put down all the sins but ALSO accepts all people alike. That is the Amazing thing about loving God.
Love always Endures....................VC

devotee
19 October 2008, 09:45 AM
Tell that to the thousands of homosexual Catholic priests and the priest molestation scandals. Sexuality for the sake of indulgence is exact opposite of following a spiritual path. Spirituality is about disciplining the physical senses so as to raise the spiritual consciousness. Besides this, MANY sexual activities are harmful to society and therefore considered to be wrong behaviors.

You are speaking from a highly conditioned state of mind. How is your paragraph related with only homosexuality ? There is no thread of argument which makes your above paragraph applicable to only gays & lesbians. It applies equally to all sorts of sexual behaviour.



Cancer also occurs in nature, but I hardly think anyone would bless it as normal, acceptable and desirable. I would like to meet the mother who proudly introduces her child to friends as a homosexual. Lots of things are sin. Everybody does something wrong in the life. This doesn't mean we should distort the whole of spiritual tradition to make wrong be right so that a subgroup of people can feel "accepted." If you want to compare a rapist and a prostitute, you can. Each has there own degree of wrongness. There are extremely valid reasons why someone should avoid that kind of lifestyle and why society will always consider it wrong.

Why do you equate only homosexual behaviour with cancer ? From where do you draw conclusion what is "normal", "acceptable" or "desirable". That simply shows your bias towards those people. Your entire paragraph has no argument which proves that this behaviour is anyway more harmful than "normal" (?) one !



Perhaps it has failed to make an impression on you, but Eastern spirituality is singularly based on overcoming human tendancies to gain liberation. I hardly see the 5 evils Guru Nanak Dev Ji speaks about, lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride as being the same thing as being left-handed. I hardly see equivalence with left-handedness as a physical quality as being the same as a homosexual lifestyle which statistically will involve promiscuity, exposure to disease and even sadomasochistic practices.

You must ponder over what the scriptures say. It talks about renunciation of all sorts of lusts, desires & not just sex. Our tendency to translate all those teachings to just "sex" is because we are pathetically attached to it some way or the other. Moreover those teachings don't distinguish between different sexual orientation. Whether I have lust for hetrosexual behaviour or for homsexual one , both are obstacles on the path of our spiritual aspirations. Why districriminate against only homosexuals ?


Just because a man is married to a woman, and decides that the next 15 ladies he see's are so beautiful he must now have sex with them! This is the mentality of the promoters of gay lifestyle.

That is a real joke ! How do you draw such a conclusion ?



Just because a man is married to a woman doesn't mean he should run off and now have sex with all kinds of men because he discovers he is attracted to them. This whole conversation is a joke.

I doubt you understand what you are saying. What you are talking is not homosexuality but bi-sexuality & sexual variants & we are not talking about that.



If you have Christian hang ups please take it to a Christian forum.

Sister, you don't know me enough for passing such comments against me. I am just giving examples. Aren't they relevant here ?


Yes, please take your own advice and stop trying to force this immoral and degraded lifestyle down people's throats. This is not a way to gain acceptance.

First of all, you have not given any reason why you consider homosexuality an immoral & degraded lifestyle. And for God's sake, please don't get personal in arguments. This way of attacking may become unnecessarily bitter.

Second, Gays or lesbians are not my relatives & I have nothing do with them except having a relationship of being a fellow human being. The Gays or Lesbians are not by their own choice. They are victims of Nature's exceptions. Please read what Science says on this matter. Please don't have hatred towards them. It is none of their faults.



But don't think people want to hear all about some flamboyant pornographic sexual lifestyle choice. The only people forcing anything have invented this outrageous conversation. The question was respectfully asked what does Hinduism teach, have some respect for answers you don't want to hear then.

I don't think there is any relevance of the above with the topic being discussed.


Rules? Do what you want and pay your own price. Isn't that what life is? But if you undertake a spiritual path, you will have to follow some rules. You will have to surrender yourself to someone. You don't want rules, okay fine, but don't call it spirituality. Have you ever even heard of tapasiya? How would this kind of sensation oriented lifestyle even compare with austerities of yoga? Just consider someone like Shivabalayogi who meditated for something like 16 years and legs became crippled from years of meditation. Spiritual teaching is totally the opposite of satisfying every lust for sensation.

Isn't there a homosexual rights forum to discuss all the grievances people have with not being accepted for shoving crazy lifestyle down everybody's throat? You are as accepted as anyone else. If you behave properly and respectfully, no one has any problem. Simple. Law of the land. If you want to hang on your same sex partner and wax poetic about being rejected, I guess you will cry until the cows come home.


Both the paragraphs have absolutely no relevance to topic being discussed.

You have given a quote indicating how the homosexuals are victims of Aids, Suicidal tendencies etc. etc. If you take the statistics of Thirld World Countries against the developed countries on nutrition, starvation, diseases, premature deaths, social problems, etc. etc. you will find similarities to your statistics. So shall we conclude that the people living in thirld world countries are all sinners & living in a third world is a sin ??? My dear sister, they are victims & the reason is our biased outlook towards them. The reason behind all these things is not because of their behaviour but because they are forced to conceal their activity for fear of backlash of the huge "normal" section of the society. This fear is too strong for them to adopt only healthy sexual behaviour/liferstyle & the feeling of rejection by not only the society in general but even by their own family members is so high that they are forced to live a double faced life devoid of love. This makes them vulnerable towards dangerous sexual behaviours, towards hatred against themselves, towards hatred against the so called "normal section of the society". There is no one who is with them. Alas, not even those who claim that, "Eko Brahman dwitiyo nasti". They are what God has destined ... why He does like that ... who knows ?

The statement that hetrosexual behaviour is for having children & homosexual behaviour is just for lust is ridiculous. How many hetrosexual relations everyday on this earth are made just for having children ? Ask yourself & you will find the correct answer.

Agreed, sex is an obstacle on the path of spirituality (in fact, all desires for that matter are obstacles). But this statement applies to everyone irrespective of his/her sexual orientation.

OM

devotee
19 October 2008, 10:54 AM
I must admit that I am no authority on this subject. I don't know for sure whether this behaviour is aquired or just by birth for unknown reasons. My postings are valid only if this is not an aquired behaviour.

May be they are having some psychological problems which might be driving them into this behaviour ... but then they should be subject to correct medical treatment instead of hatred. In that case, they are just sick people worthy of our compassion.

Regards,

OM

Znanna
19 October 2008, 04:10 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste

A wise person told me regarding the gay life style ,

they have confused what they do with who they are.


For me, this resolved doubts in my mind.


pranams



Namaste,

This bears repeating. Thank you yajvan for sharing that.

Perhaps my take on the quote is not as intended, but I'm of the opinion that physical sex can be a fake-out, a distraction which can provoke division more than union.

Love Is. Love Never Dies.


ZN

Harjas Kaur
20 October 2008, 04:46 AM
You are speaking from a highly conditioned state of mind. How is your paragraph related with only homosexuality ? There is no thread of argument which makes your above paragraph applicable to only gays & lesbians. It applies equally to all sorts of sexual behaviour.But I deliberately put gay lifestyle together with other sexual oriented activities because I don't believe there is a significant difference spiritually. I don't believe Hindu Dharma or Indic culture singles out homosexuality in the way the Abrahamic cultures do. Nonetheless, it would be considered a scandalous activity. The question asked respectfully what would the opinion be, and I'm honestly sharing it, no need to attack me personally. Acceptance is just not going to happen. People can get upset and think it unfair, but for many reasons, I'm telling you the truth, the acceptance will not happen.


Why do you equate only homosexual behaviour with cancer ? Because homosexual behavior happens to be the topic under discussion. And it was already brought up why there are societal taboos associated with it, and the answer given was it is unhealthy. And no matter how anyone slices it, statistically, it will still come out unhealthy, for the simple reason that the rectal mucosa isn't designed the same as the vaginal mucosa, and as a consequence, the lining tears more easily allowing direct blood-semen contact.

I'm not trying to be rude but there are valid reasons why for thousands of years every culture in the world has taboos on this subject. I'm sorry if people don't like these answers, and no one has to agree, but if you are asking, here is a rationale. For one thing it's a taboo. For another, it's an unhealthy lifestyle statistically associated with veneral disease infections and even certain forms of cancer predominate out of a statistical norm.

Why would I be discussing other forms of cancer? Isn't the topic on point homosexuality and specifically why it is considered to be unhealthy as a lifestyle? Smokers get cancers too, and probably more frequently, but that isn't the topic of discussion.


From where do you draw conclusion what is "normal", "acceptable" or "desirable". That simply shows your bias towards those people. Your entire paragraph has no argument which proves that this behaviour is anyway more harmful than "normal" (?) one !There are valid research reports and the citations are listed. There doesn't need to be a constructed argument to show that gayu lifestyle is associated with a number of ills which negatively impact the life. Why is it so critical for you to prove against the known facts?

My personal bias had nothing to do with the scientific research studies. But whatever. Am I biased? Well, I don't approve of this lifestyle and I think it is symptomatic of Kaliyuga. But I don't believe it is inherently more sinful than something else. I already said everyone has done some wrong things. But the question has to do with social acceptance, and berating me personally for giving an honest opinion will not create the acceptance you seek.

Is this behavior more harmful than normal? I think the entire conversation is ridiculous. Does that mean someone's beloved son won't turn out with a gay preference someday? No. No one is immune from these kind of problems. It's part of the life. But I don't have the opinion that communities should make it acceptable. I also don't agree that people should be singled out for persecution. But if someone is behaving in a scandalous way and acting to draw negative attention, he will likely receive the negative attention. I already said if someone is homosexual and attends religious services with respect and discretion, probably everyone would welcome that person. It's the forcing of lifestyle and sexual things down people's throats which will cause that taboo to kick in and people will behave poorly about it. I'm being honest. I would advise against it, ESPECIALLY in a temple. Common now. Let's use common sense. No one would get that kind of acceptance. Not a heterosexual person with bad display of morals or someone intoxicated even. It's a matter of respecting cultural sensitivities.

I saw a young teenager at Gurudwara one time who was smoking in the parking lot. Several men chased her away. It's just not acceptable to behave in certain ways in certain places. Was it correct? I think so, because the smoking shows disrespect for the Gurdwara. So would wearing suggestive clothing or behaving scandalously.

I made a sincere effort to show bad behavior isn't ONLY homosexuality. But I still believe it's not appropriate for a lifestyle choice, and it most certainly isn't innocuous or harmless.


You must ponder over what the scriptures say. It talks about renunciation of all sorts of lusts, desires & not just sex. Our tendency to translate all those teachings to just "sex" is because we are pathetically attached to it some way or the other. Your attempt to make people feel guilty for disapproving of a scandalous sexually explicit lifestyle is what is ridiculous. The scriptures DO talk about sexual behavior, to exclude that is outrageous. The problem with homosexuality is that it is a sexually explicit lifestyle statistically associated with high rates of promiscuity and aberrent sexual practices. It is sensationalist in the extreme.

I mean, seriously, I live in America and have been to Los Angeles many times and I can't even talk about the stores and advertisements on billboards. All I can say is this lifestyle is associated with scandalous behavior. For example my friend and I went to Gurdwara in Los Angeles and drove by Hollywood and there was this huge store with neon sign advertising "Gaymart." Now my neighbors daughter started babbling on about gaymart for the next 2 weeks, and this is the kind of thing people don't like around their kids, but the subculture is so loud and so in your face, it's hard to avoid.



Moreover those teachings don't distinguish between different sexual orientation. Whether I have lust for hetrosexual behaviour or for homsexual one , both are obstacles on the path of our spiritual aspirations. Why districriminate against only homosexuals ?Because this issue of acceptance and rejection touches upon more than religion. It also has to do with culture. Indians are very family oriented. And Indic religions are very conservative. The problem with homosexuality is that it is a politicized movement and very in your face. The very agressiveness with which people try to justify and attack the conservative views of more traditional people is precisely what will create the rejection. If people are quiet and respectful, they won't likely draw out the negative reactions and will have a better chance at being accepted without it being some kind of forced approval.

But the truth is it will always be frowned on. Tolerance is a two-way street. You just can't think that a society which is scandalized when an American actor publically kisses an Indian actress, that people will just buy in to these arguments supporting gay rights.

But here's the thing, what you do personally, that's between you and God. That's an issue for you and your Guru. But the other thing is trying to force an approval and acceptance. To be honest, I have so many other problems that what gay people are doing is just not even my concern. If God is approving of you and your Guru is approving of you, what do you care what I think? Just keep going the way your going and who knows, maybe you will achieve mukti before I do. But if it's a question of public disrespect of Indic religion with aggressive scandalous behaviors, then I will be against that. And it is not specifically directed to gay people, but anybody.


Why districriminate against only homosexuals ?You're crazy if you think I spend all day worrying about what homosexuals are up to. I don't even want to know. If you find it discriminatory that homosexuals don't have "equal rights" go agitate some politician who could help you out. I can't help you at all. If the question is why is it not accepted to Hindu spirituality I gave you valid reasons, you just don't like them. Well, it's not like a Presidential debate where you can win brownie points. Either you will wisely and quietly reflect on what people have shared with you and find a way to fit in respectfully with dignity or you can keep creating drama that only ostracizes more.

No one is only discriminating homosexuals. Do you realize how much discrimination I get just trying to support sanatana Dharma from fundamentalist Sikhs? EVERYBODY gets discrimination! Stop feeling sorry for yourself. I would probably be physically restrained from entering some Gurdwaras just because of my religious views. But I'm not complaining that everybody should accept me. Either they do, or they don't. Find where you fit in. But if you're trying to make friends, just be a good person, and show respect for the sensibilitiers of others. Don't make this some sexual emphasis for one thing and probably you would find more acceptance than you think. But if you think you'll find public approval it's not going to happen. Let's be realistic.


Just because a man is married to a woman, and decides that the next 15 ladies he see's are so beautiful he must now have sex with them! This is the mentality of the promoters of gay lifestyle. That is a real joke ! How do you draw such a conclusion ?It's not a joke. Psychologists tell gay people that they should be free to act on those impulses even if they are married. It is a fact. My point being, just because a heterosexual man is attracted to other women, he should not act on that. So where did we get the political movement that when someone decides or discovers they are homosexual, they should leave their spouse and go act on those impulses?

Call it a joke if you want. My point is just because someone has gay urges, they do not and should not act on it, especially if they are already married. I just don't support the things the gay movement in the United States supports.


I doubt you understand what you are saying. What you are talking is not homosexuality but bi-sexuality & sexual variants & we are not talking about that.I doubt we could categorize homosexuality into a little compartment where there are only certain behaviors and a line drawn. Since the conversation isn't about anyone specifically, but rather about generalities, then the whole spectrum of what passes for gay lifestyle in the United States, which is what I'm familiar with, and that is many things.

For starters the pedophile groups were very public and active in the gay rights movement up until the 1990's. So only recently were they thrown out of the gay rights movement in general.

So for example this goes to show another thing about taboos, where communities don't want to open a window for some little subset of this population, and then let in all the rest. When it comes to gay pornography, or these gay stores and whatnot, there is no limit. The limits are just political abstractions so the general population will accept the lifestyle. But in these gay bars are you saying there are only "homosexuals?" There aren't also those pedophile chicken hawks, bisexuals who are married, sadomasochists and all kinds of weird explicit kinds of preferences, different colorewd handkerchiefs for certain forms of prostitution? There aren't people in varying stages of hormonal sex change?

Because even if you say this is not what you personally support, we are talking a gay movement in general. And that movement traditionally has no limits. When the first AIDS cases came out, I was studying nursing. And everyone was shocked that the first cases were among a population that casually had anonymous sex as a lifestyle, the first AIDS patients averaged 1000 sexual partners a year.

Those are facts, not my bias or opinions. So when a subgroup wants open and unbiased acceptance from an extremely conservative community, you have to realize, it's not just someone in particular, but the whole show that everyone is looking at.


You can go on and on about fellow human beings. The truth is I have spent over 18 years being a nurse and caring for many patients who were homosexual. Some who died from AIDS. I have every conviction that humanity is in a condition of suffering. People die no matter who they are or how they live. But I would not recommend this lifestyle as something deserving of approval. I feel badly for young people who find themselves in this predicament. I believe this is a hard life. I believe it is a lifestyle which is statistically reckless and in denial of obvious natural phenomenon.

That doesn't mean people are incapable of reflecting the Light of God. But you are talking about a range of lifestyle choices and a range of people with sometimes the most outrageous behavior intended to be deliberately scandalous. I just don't see this in general getting the acceptance you are hoping for. And that, I believe, was the original question.

reflections
20 October 2008, 04:48 AM
Thanks a lot to everyone who contributed to the discussion. I am really unable to make up my mind on this issue.

So, I will maintain that, I am all for monogamous marriage where the puropse of sexuality lies in responsibility of raising a pios family and not just to fulfill lust. However, when it comes to others, I can't make strict rules for them and I still need to be compassionate. As I don't know very clearly if homosexuality is a psychological phenomena or people are born in such way.

So, I feel their political and social rights should not be compromised for, though what they are doing is not ideal.

It is the beauty of Hinduism, where in we don't have very strong verdicts, that Homosexuals are committing some grave sins and going against God. However, we do have ideals of Brahmacarya or Ekpatnivrata.

devotee
20 October 2008, 06:44 AM
Acceptance is just not going to happen. People can get upset and think it unfair, but for many reasons, I'm telling you the truth, the acceptance will not happen.

So, you think I was asking for acceptance ? That too yours ?? :lol:


But the question has to do with social acceptance, and berating me personally for giving an honest opinion will not create the acceptance you seek.

Did I berate tou ? Where ? Can you show me so that I shall take care in future ? AND again, are you sure, I am seeking acceptance ? For what & why ? You seem to know what I am seeking even more than me !



Your attempt to make people feel guilty for disapproving of a scandalous sexually explicit lifestyle is what is ridiculous.

Can you indicate by which set of words or sentences I have tried to make you feel guilty ?


But here's the thing, what you do personally, that's between you and God. That's an issue for you and your Guru. But the other thing is trying to force an approval and acceptance.

Can you frame the sentences without using "you" ?


If God is approving of you and your Guru is approving of you, what do you care what I think? Just keep going the way your going and who knows, maybe you will achieve mukti before I do.

So, you thought I was, perhaps, a gay & seeking your approval ? Great !


You're crazy if you think I spend all day worrying about what homosexuals are up to.

Please quote my sentence where I said that. Let me also know where these direct firing is coming from.


If you find it discriminatory that homosexuals don't have "equal rights" go agitate some politician who could help you out. I can't help you at all.

Thanks for the unwanted & unsolicited suggestion. Did I ask your help in any laguage ?


Don't make this some sexual emphasis for one thing and probably you would find more acceptance than you think. But if you think you'll find public approval it's not going to happen. Let's be realistic.

You are so sure of what you are talking about "me" ??

----------------

Dear Mrs/Ms Kaur,

Can you please avoid personal attacks in the course of discussion ? Don't you think I can reply you in much harsher & direct language ? My culture stops me from being rude ( more so to a lady) but you have made all efforts to attack me personally.

This was just a topic for discussion & I was participating in that as anyone else. Why did you choose to attack me personally ?? Do you think I have anything to with homosexuals ? I don't have even one aquaintance of that type but I feel compassion for anyone who is discriminated for none of his fault. Are you so important that I need your approval for what I believe in ?

I am really amazed at uncalled for language & statements used for me by you.

May God bless you ...

OM

Znanna
20 October 2008, 06:15 PM
Namaste,

To many, physical sex is as close an approach to the Holy as is achieved.

Who is to say how Godz determines this approach?


ZN

atanu
21 October 2008, 11:48 AM
The Gays or Lesbians are not by their own choice. They are victims of Nature's exceptions. Please read what Science says on this matter. Please don't have hatred towards them. It is none of their faults.
OM



they have confused what they do with who they are.




Firstly, we will never fully comprehend until we walk in those shoes. Comprehending is a bit easier as it hits closer and closer to home. Homophobes with children who are gay fit this category. At least some have had unconditional love overtake the homophobia. Others have not. (I personally believe in the law of karma, and it would seem logical that severe homophobes are destined for a lifetime of being gay, unless it is resolved.


Namaste friends,

How true. Who knows why one is born with some pecuilar motivations? Who is born perfect? Are we all also not cross wired? what we do with who we are? Yes, all of us are sinners in some or other way (as per Christians) and all of us are cross wired as per Sanatana Dharma.

Yet, Eastern Mind speaks of a chance of resolution. Life gives the chance for resolution of our own ills and compassion for others' ills.

Om

Harjas Kaur
21 October 2008, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=25082#post25082)
Acceptance is just not going to happen. People can get upset and think it unfair, but for many reasons, I'm telling you the truth, the acceptance will not happen.


So, you think I was asking for acceptance ? That too yours ?? :lol:The original post asked what was the position of Hinduism and basically Indic cultures to this question. So I gave my answer. So I don't know you personally nor care whether or not you personally are asking for personal acceptance. The reality remains that Indic society will not accept homosexual behavior. That is my honest answer to the OP question. I have no concern or even information about you personally.

It is a discussion thread which will evaluate many different opinions. Why get upset with me personally because you don't like the opinion? I'm answering as honestly as I can. All I can possibly give is my opinion.



But the question has to do with social acceptance, and berating me personally for giving an honest opinion will not create the acceptance you seek. Did I berate tou ? Where ? Can you show me so that I shall take care in future ? AND again, are you sure, I am seeking acceptance ? For what & why ? You seem to know what I am seeking even more than me !Well let's take a look. Devotee writes:

-You are speaking from a highly conditioned state of mind.
-That simply shows your bias towards those people.
-Why districriminate against only homosexuals ?
-That is a real joke ! How do you draw such a conclusion ?
-I doubt you understand what you are saying.
-Sister, you don't know me enough for passing such comments against me. I am just giving examples. Aren't they relevant here ? (Response to comments about problems of Christian religion when OP is asking specifically about Hindu religion is not relevant imo.)
-First of all, you have not given any reason why you consider homosexuality an immoral & degraded lifestyle. And for God's sake, please don't get personal in arguments. This way of attacking may become unnecessarily bitter.

Second, Gays or lesbians are not my relatives & I have nothing do with them except having a relationship of being a fellow human being. The Gays or Lesbians are not by their own choice. They are victims of Nature's exceptions. Please read what Science says on this matter. Please don't have hatred towards them. It is none of their faults.


And so forth. Just listen to yourself. I am responding to the original post which asked a fair question in a respectful way. And the answer as best I see it is that homosexuality is not accepted in Hindu religion or Indic culture. When that was objected to, I tried to explain how India is a conservative country and holds the traditional sense of family and taboos. When that was objected to, I tried to explain why people believe in the taboo due to high incidence of disease, promiscuity in the lifestyle and objectionable flamboyant behaviors which I don't realistically foresee as being any kind of barrier that comes down in Indic culture in the foreseeable future.

To these kind of opinions, which I have a right to, which are not personally attacking any individual, I'm being berated as being unloving, hateful, biased, irreligious, discriminating, passing judgement, highly conditioned, etc.


Stop and think for a moment, regardless of yours or my opinion, am I being false to speak this way about traditional and conservative Indic culture? No. I have not spoken falsely. Will berating me for being hypocritical, judgemental, unloving and whatever make that change? No. So what's the point?

I already gave best advice I could on the subject, and that is don't try to force people to accept this viewpoint. Instead, just try to be a nice, spiritual person and let people get to know you. And didn't I say homosexual people would probably get more acceptance from traditional conservative people that way, then by arguing and insulting the conservative beliefs?

Now, that is just a way of speaking, so as not to sound ridiculous with formalities such as (per the original poster's statements.) Instead I'm sayiong "you." I have no idea whether you personally are a homosexual or have a wife/husband and 6 kids. It's not a personal attack. How do you derive personal attack? Because I don't agree with homosexuality?

The fact is, I answered the question from the original poster honestly, and I gave the reasons why Indian society and even NRI's are not likely to accept (my goodness that was the question wasn't it?) homosexuality.


So why are you attacking me? Did I say you personally are judgemental, conditioned, hateful, discriminatory, etc? No. I do not know you.


And this ends my interest in this ridiculous thread. Flame away if you want to. I'm actually more tolerant than you know while remaining a very conservative person. But I absolutely will not be bullied into acceptance.



To many, physical sex is as close an approach to the Holy as is achieved.

Who is to say how Godz determines this approach?The question was about Hindu religion and Hindu society, and this would not be a traditional or typical view.


Who is born perfect? Are we all also not cross wired? It was a thread asking what is the traditional Hindu view, not badgering whoever doesn't personally accept it as a lifestyle choice. But since it has become that, I bow out of conversation since you will all bully a traditional viewpoint. It does not alter the answer to the original question. And it certainly alienates traditional people unnecessarily. Just to abuse a disagreement will not change anything. I have already tried to acknowledge that homosexuality isn't consider worse than something else. I do know of people who have killed their daughters for getting involved in prostitution. Who is a worse sinner? The killer or the prostitute?

I do not support crimes like that against someone just because they let you down, but at same time I wouldn't tell kids homosexual lifestyle is acceptable. Think what you want.


-Can you frame the sentences without using "you" ?
-So, you thought I was, perhaps, a gay & seeking your approval ? Great !I don't know anything about you and to be honest, I don't even care. My interest in this thread was minimal to say the least. And that is just a way of writing without sounding overly impersonal which sounds weird to me.


You're crazy if you think I spend all day worrying about what homosexuals are up to.
Please quote my sentence where I said that. Let me also know where these direct firing is coming from.The part where you accused me of being personally discriminatory for starters. As I am saying, I don't concern myself with this topic overly much to spend time worrying enough to discriminate. If someone came to my house that was gay I would probably feed them something nice. If they acted rude and disrespectful, I would probably ask them to leave. I think I'm an average person where I don't see I am going around personally judging individuals and discriminating on them. And such accusations actually discriminate on me as a person. I did not say this kind of thing about you.


If you find it discriminatory that homosexuals don't have "equal rights" go agitate some politician who could help you out. I can't help you at all. Thanks for the unwanted & unsolicited suggestion. Did I ask your help in any laguage ?This is the point, I cannot help you promote more acceptance of this lifestyle per the original thread asking the opinion. If someone is bent because people disagree with it, instead of attacking the qualities of the person disagreeing as judgemnetal and unloving and discriminatory such energy would be more constructive directed at people who can change the laws to make society behave differently. In other words, we will not make each other agree, so why keep disagreeing? There is no purpose.


Don't make this some sexual emphasis for one thing and probably you would find more acceptance than you think. But if you think you'll find public approval it's not going to happen. Let's be realistic. You are so sure of what you are talking about "me" ??I am talking in general and responding to more than just your thread, except for specific quotes. Again, I am responding to the original post question. I do not believe acceptance is forthcoming and it is unrealistic to expect that to change anytime soon. That is my honest opinion. Now people have talked about why they think it should change. I disagree that it should change. I have a right to my opinion without being accused of being a poor and ugly kind of person. But, I'm not complaining about personal attacks because I know people feel strongly on this issue. Hate me if you want. I can take it.


Dear Mrs/Ms Kaur,

Can you please avoid personal attacks in the course of discussion ? Don't you think I can reply you in much harsher & direct language ? My culture stops me from being rude ( more so to a lady) but you have made all efforts to attack me personally.

This was just a topic for discussion & I was participating in that as anyone else. Why did you choose to attack me personally ?? Do you think I have anything to with homosexuals ? I don't have even one aquaintance of that type but I feel compassion for anyone who is discriminated for none of his fault. Are you so important that I need your approval for what I believe in ?

I am really amazed at uncalled for language & statements used for me by you.

May God bless you ...
I can point directly to statements where you call me judgemental, unloving, discriminatory, etc. I did not so call you. I keep trying to explain to the original post and whoever disagrees that Hindu religion traditionally, and conservative Indic culture will not accept this lifestyle. So call that an attack, a lack of compassion and go on about your personal need for approval. Because the point is an answer to the theme of this thread which was based on the question what is the Hindu viewpoint.

What uncalled for language and statements? The ones that allude to my being non-compassionate and bigoted? I did not call you any such things.

Harjas Kaur
21 October 2008, 09:51 PM
Don't you think I can reply you in much harsher & direct language ? My culture stops me from being rude ( more so to a lady) but you have made all efforts to attack me personally.
Lol. Stop being angry. You think I would be threatened in the slightest by you getting angry and saying something 'mean?" I seriously have deeper and more legitimate concerns than that. But it doesn't mean I'm trying to make you angry. Look at how you jumped on me to make my contribution unwelcome and even hated by others just because you disagree with it.

Anyone can attack the position of traditional people who support family values and disagree with homosexuality, but by ostracizing us no one will win support in Indic culture for this lifestyle. In fact, it is our viewpoints which you people are alienating, that if you wanted to change, attacking us as judgemental, discriminatory, uncompassionate, unloving, etc just shows as much intolerance of traditional Indic values as traditional people have for flamboyant lifestyle like homosexuality.

So, it's a Hindu forum, and now I'm unwelcome for having a traditional view of sexual morality. This is Kaliyuga. Some people feel homosexual lifestyle is a western encroachment to destroy the Hindu family. People are seriously threatened by these kind of attacks against traditional views.

So who is being intolerant? No one stops another person from living their lifestyle. Why attack this viewpoint on a Hindu forum, which one would think, was interested in honestly communicating the values and teachings of Hindu Dharma. I don't see how being attacked as an uncompassionate, unloving, bigoted, biased, discriminatory person is exactly welcoming, let alone protecting the traditional Hindu morality.

What's that about?

devotee
21 October 2008, 11:32 PM
Lol. Stop being angry. You think I would be threatened in the slightest by you getting angry and saying something 'mean?" I seriously have deeper and more legitimate concerns than that. But it doesn't mean I'm trying to make you angry. Look at how you jumped on me to make my contribution unwelcome and even hated by others just because you disagree with it.

Anyone can attack the position of traditional people who support family values and disagree with homosexuality, but by ostracizing us no one will win support in Indic culture for this lifestyle. In fact, it is our viewpoints which you people are alienating, that if you wanted to change, attacking us as judgemental, discriminatory, uncompassionate, unloving, etc just shows as much intolerance of traditional Indic values as traditional people have for flamboyant lifestyle like homosexuality.

So, it's a Hindu forum, and now I'm unwelcome for having a traditional view of sexual morality. This is Kaliyuga. Some people feel homosexual lifestyle is a western encroachment to destroy the Hindu family. People are seriously threatened by these kind of attacks against traditional views.

So who is being intolerant? No one stops another person from living their lifestyle. Why attack this viewpoint on a Hindu forum, which one would think, was interested in honestly communicating the values and teachings of Hindu Dharma. I don't see how being attacked as an uncompassionate, unloving, bigoted, biased, discriminatory person is exactly welcoming, let alone protecting the traditional Hindu morality.

What's that about?

Dear Mrs/Mr Kaur,

I had expected some sensible post from you after my protest against the way you write. I see that you have become even more agressive & started using much worse language.

I am sorry to disappoint you but I can't stoop so low to use the language you use. I am not used to the language you use. It is pretty offensive for me.

BTW, thanks for making me more aware about India, Indian Culture, Indian family values & Hinduism. Isn't it ironical to know that you who is just a PIO & a Non-Hindu claim to know more of these things than me who, for your kind information, is born & brought up in India, is living in India & is a Hindu by birth ?

Please do me a favour. Don't ever react to my posts, I don't know the language you use.

Thanking you in advance ...

devotee

satay
21 October 2008, 11:41 PM
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