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Infinite Regress
25 October 2008, 11:40 AM
Friends,:)

I am sure this must've crossed your minds. As Hindus, which system do we favor? There's no point in saying there must be a third-way, that hindus have their own system, and so on. I also remember reading something about integral humanism, which is supposed to be the Hindu perspective on socio-economic matters. But it's rather sketchy with very, very outdated ideas from Upadhyaya.

So the point is; there isn't enough literature on anything other than capitalism and socialism. These two are the most dominant systems of thought, and so other ideas cannot be taken seriously, for the simple reason that they don't cover various issues in the same depth and intensity, as do capitalism and socialism. There are mountains of literature available from both these 'isms' regarding almost all matters, ranging from history to ecomomics to system of governance. Other systems are simply no match, and even third-way economics (which propose something different) such as social democracy, anarchist movement, syndicalism etc. draw heavily from these two.

Hence, my question is: which will be favorable to Hindus, and why? Please let's discuss this rationally, and NOT get carried away.

Thanks.:)

atanu
23 November 2008, 12:43 AM
Friends,:)

I am sure this must've crossed your minds. As Hindus, which system do we favor? There's no point in saying there must be a third-way, that hindus have their own system, and so on. I also remember reading something about integral humanism, which is supposed to be the Hindu perspective on socio-economic matters. But it's rather sketchy with very, very outdated ideas from Upadhyaya.

So the point is; there isn't enough literature on anything other than capitalism and socialism. These two are the most dominant systems of thought, and so other ideas cannot be taken seriously, for the simple reason that they don't cover various issues in the same depth and intensity, as do capitalism and socialism. There are mountains of literature available from both these 'isms' regarding almost all matters, ranging from history to ecomomics to system of governance. Other systems are simply no match, and even third-way economics (which propose something different) such as social democracy, anarchist movement, syndicalism etc. draw heavily from these two.

Hence, my question is: which will be favorable to Hindus, and why? Please let's discuss this rationally, and NOT get carried away.

Thanks.:)

Namaste Infinite,

I avoided replying to this for some time. Theories will be theories but the Tao will WILL.

To me personally, unbridled Capitalism, when without any knowledge of Spirit as the reality, is Asuric -- Individualism without any concern for cosmos as one entity. The seed of death of this Asura is inbuilt and this Asura will give way to Sura.

To me personally, Socialism, when tempered with the knowledge of ONE ATMAN as the ananta reality, is the message of Upanishads and Gita. Samata. However, again, this is idealistic and will never happen. Egoistic leaders will become Asuric.

In summary, Brahman is the truth and Brahman is the way. Brahman is SamAn, hidden within the five breaths. Needlessly to say that the theories reside in Brahman.

Om Namah Shivaya

Infinite Regress
23 November 2008, 01:16 AM
Namaste Infinite,

I avoided replying to this for some time. Theories will be theories but the Tao will WILL.

To me personally, unbridled Capitalism, when without any knowledge of Spirit as the reality, is Asuric -- Individualism without any concern for cosmos as one entity. The seed of death of this Asura is inbuilt and this Asura will give way to Sura.

To me personally, Socialism, when tempered with the knowledge of ONE ATMAN as the ananta reality, is the message of Upanishads and Gita. Samata. However, again, this is idealistic and will never happen. Egoistic leaders will become Asuric.

In summary, Brahman is the truth and Brahman is the way. Brahman is SamAn, hidden within the five breaths. Needlessly to say that the theories reside in Brahman.

Om Namah Shivaya


Thanks for your reply, Atanu.

One concern, though. If we see economic theories in the context of religion (which is what you've done by referring to Brahman and such), that wouldn't have a universal appeal. Religion is for the soul, whereas economics pertains to the allocation of resources. So if we combine the two, wouldn't that give birth to an eternal contradiction, and therefore, conflict?

It would be similar to Islamic theocracies, where religion rather than human need controls the economy. And that, I am sure you'd agree, is not the right way to go about it.

atanu
23 November 2008, 03:05 AM
Thanks for your reply, Atanu.

One concern, though. If we see economic theories in the context of religion (which is what you've done by referring to Brahman and such), that wouldn't have a universal appeal. Religion is for the soul, whereas economics pertains to the allocation of resources. So if we combine the two, wouldn't that give birth to an eternal contradiction, and therefore, conflict?

It would be similar to Islamic theocracies, where religion rather than human need controls the economy. And that, I am sure you'd agree, is not the right way to go about it.

Namaste Infinite,

I was not actually referring to economic theories alone. Though I am not equipped to comment as a scientist on this subject but I will point out that even allocation of resources is for the soul only. What I am trying to indicate is difficult to express. For example, a man ultimately wants only happiness but to get that he resorts to money and to get more money he resorts to economics. All these theories make the simple thing crooked.

Whether Capitalism or Socialism, there is no way to appease the hunger of the ego. Laissez Faire type of Capitalism of the 19 th Century in Europe gave rise to such oppression that it brought in Communism, which suppressed Human aspiration to such extent that it brought in Capitalism. And in present world scenario, China, as a Socialist country, is using Capitalism to prosper. On the other hand, unbridled profit taking has forced USA to resort to Socialist way of taking up stake in Banks. In fact, I heard the interview of Black Rock CEO, who has criticised unbridled profit making greed of Capitalism and has welcomed a left-centric President of US.

I agree that it is difficult for the mind to synchronise economics and Dharma, but I cannot say that I agree completely to what you have stated. Gita is about Karma Yoga -- ultimate prescription for balancing the needs and obligations of this (body and mind) with the need to remain united with the spirit.

(I am tempted here to refer to a recent thread on "Dakshina", to indicate what actually is the best economics. To be explicit, I will paraphrase a verse from Yajur Veda that means: Those who pour wealth in the stream of Agni and Visnu prosper manifold. Will Capitalism agree to this kind of Economics? )

Any world phenomenom or any theory is really a part of the dance, but is not the dancer himself, who is true. Capitalism or Socialism are actually two poles of the same dance -- concerned with ego self preservation or group preservation, which again is ego-self preservation in a garb.

I cannot also completely agree to your statement "It would be similar to Islamic theocracies, where religion rather than human need controls the economy--".

I agree to the meaning of your statement made in another post: All this shows that people who're oppressed for a long time tend to retaliate sooner or later. It's in this context terrorism has to be viewed, which means we should be careful NOT to label it. By labeling it, we'll be reducing it to religion, which is absurd, because terrorism has nothing to do with religion.

I agree to this, since, IMO, mostly we rationalise that acts are done for dharma. I find that ludicrous. A terrorist is acting at the behest of Ego and not at the behest of God's call. Actually any action whatsoever, stems from feeling of inadequacy and thus is not yoga. Wheras, one who is in Yoga does not act, though he may be deemed to have acted stupendously.

I say all this to dispel a common myth that Work and Sanatana Dharma do not go together. In summary, I wish to re-iterate Lord's prescription: "Surrender to me. Do acts as worship to me." And I (atanu) do think that economy will fall in place. (This is a very minority position but that does not matter).


Om Namah Shivaya