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Morphane
24 November 2008, 12:21 AM
The idea is that Brahman and ourselves are one and the same, right? That life is all just a cosmic game being played.

We humans don't want to play the game though. Not when it becomes unpleasant, anyway. We want to find a way to lead a holy life so as to escape the very thing we apparently entered into voluntarily.

I think this is quite ironic: I spend most of my time imagining what it would be like to have unlimited power, unlimited pleasure, unlimited knowledge etc - yet this Brahman is more interested in becoming the opposite!

Anyway, lately I've been suffering a really painful back problem. The thought of living the rest of my life with this pain makes me feel quite depressed. Yet I gain some consolation from the thought that one day my sufferings will end.

But if my consciousness is derived from Brahman, am I not condemned to live every single life that has been, every single life that is, and every single life that is to come?

So there will be no rest for me. As soon as I die, I will be reborn, and this will happen billions, trillions, if not an infinite number of times. No matter how holy a life I lead, no matter how much I desire to exit the game, the higher will of Brahman must be unfolded.

I suppose Brahman, being infinite and all, has the appetite and stomach for such an ordeal, but from my human perspective, it seems like an eternal, living hell.

Any thoughts about this?

amra
24 November 2008, 02:44 AM
Brahman is not born, it is not involved in creation. Creation is the shakti of Brahman. Identifying with the limited is pain, identification with the unlimited is bliss. You seem to confuse the macrocosm with the microcosm. An individual cannot be the absolute, all he can be is a likeness of the absolute. Man has the universe in him on a smaller scale man is not the whole universe, the multitude of galaxies and suns. To imagine yourself to be so is an insult to God.

Morphane
24 November 2008, 06:34 AM
Brahman is not born, it is not involved in creation. Creation is the shakti of Brahman. Identifying with the limited is pain, identification with the unlimited is bliss. You seem to confuse the macrocosm with the microcosm. An individual cannot be the absolute, all he can be is a likeness of the absolute. Man has the universe in him on a smaller scale man is not the whole universe, the multitude of galaxies and suns. To imagine yourself to be so is an insult to God.

It seems you follow a tradition I'm not familiar with. I refer Vedanta, which teaches there is unity between an individual and Brahman - that any distinction is just an illusion.

I don't mean to infer that my ego is Brahman. Merely that Brahman is conscious through my ego, and somehow unaware of its true identity.

I don't believe it could be possible to insult the ultimate ground of being. That is such a...human reaction.

devotee
24 November 2008, 07:50 AM
The idea is that Brahman and ourselves are one and the same, right? That life is all just a cosmic game being played.

We humans don't want to play the game though. Not when it becomes unpleasant, anyway. We want to find a way to lead a holy life so as to escape the very thing we apparently entered into voluntarily.

I think this is quite ironic: I spend most of my time imagining what it would be like to have unlimited power, unlimited pleasure, unlimited knowledge etc - yet this Brahman is more interested in becoming the opposite!

Anyway, lately I've been suffering a really painful back problem. The thought of living the rest of my life with this pain makes me feel quite depressed. Yet I gain some consolation from the thought that one day my sufferings will end.

But if my consciousness is derived from Brahman, am I not condemned to live every single life that has been, every single life that is, and every single life that is to come?

So there will be no rest for me. As soon as I die, I will be reborn, and this will happen billions, trillions, if not an infinite number of times. No matter how holy a life I lead, no matter how much I desire to exit the game, the higher will of Brahman must be unfolded.

I suppose Brahman, being infinite and all, has the appetite and stomach for such an ordeal, but from my human perspective, it seems like an eternal, living hell.

Any thoughts about this?

Namaste Morphane,

Sometimes it intrigues us, right ? Why should we suffer when we are omnipotent, omniscient ?

I will give my opinion here :

i) The Brahman is One without a second. So, there is nothing which is separate from Brahman. If there is birth, death, pains, pleasure, bondage, ignorance or wisdom ... they are not something imposed on Brahman from outside ... they are part & parcel of the same Brahman. This must be understood very well in order to understand the genesis of the dilemma we are discussing.

The four different parts of the Brahman are : Visva, Taijasa, Pragyan & the Turiya ( Ref : Mandukya Upanishad). Every part has a special charateristic. Visva by nature has the element of ignorance where we all are. And as there is ignorance, there is pleasure, pain & suffering. This pain & suffering is the stimulus which drives us to seek our true Nature. If that were not there, we would have been condemned to darkness of ignorance for eternity !

ii) You want unlimited power, unlimited pleasure, unlimited knowledge. How is that possible ? That which is "unlimited" or "infinite" is just ONE. When that state is reached, there is no "other" on whom "unlimited" or whatever power can be used, no separate enjoyer from enjoyment to enjoy the pleasure, there is no separate knowledge from the Knower. Till there are two, there is limitation & there is bondage within the nature of the state we are in. And mind it, you cannot separate pleasure from pain. They must co-exist together. You can't have one without the other, because the Brahman must be neutral.

iii) Brahman in Turiya state doesn't desire anything or does anything, because there is nothing happening in reality. The happening is acually not-happening or it is better to say that whatever is, is neither happening nor not-happening ... because all these terms are valid within out mental realm of relativity.

iv) Now let us talk about the back pain. What about that ? Why does it bother you when it is all in dream state ? Why should "you" suffer ? But please mark that "you" comes before suffering ! Does this "you" really exist ? No ! As long as there is a "you", it is bound to pleasures & sufferings, within the realm of mind. That is ego, the Bhandasur ... the false demon ... which separates us from our True Nature. The ego must die before the pain ends. When there won't be "I", "you", "He", "It", "they" etc. ... then only the Reality will shine.

-----------------------------

But the question is : Why is there ignorance, the dream or such a Nature of the Brahman or why are there are four states/parts of the Brahman ?

This question has no answer. Rig-Veda says ( as quoted in another thread by Atanu ... thanks to him) :

"Who really knows? Who can presume to tell it?
Whence was it born? Whence issued this creation?
Even the Gods came after its emergence.
Then who can tell from whence it came to be?
That out of which creation has arisen,
whether it held it firm or it did not,
He who surveys it in the highest heaven,
He surely knows - or maybe He does not!"

OM

yajvan
25 November 2008, 10:29 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste

Morphane writes

So there will be no rest for me. As soon as I die, I will be reborn, and this will happen billions, trillions, if not an infinite number of times. No matter how holy a life I lead, no matter how much I desire to exit the game, the higher will of Brahman must be unfolded.


This in fact could occur ( yet I do not speak from direct experience) , but it is not the design of the 'system'.

If a holy life is achieved, then one does not return. So what is this holiness? It is wholeness, bhūma¹, fullness of Being. When this is lived, experienced, then one does not return , so say the Upaniṣads¹.

pranams


word and references

bhūman भूमन् - the aggregate of all existing things ; fullness, abundence.
Svetasvatara Upaniṣad 1.7; more given upon request