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Tyrannos
25 November 2008, 10:16 PM
Hail!!!
This is a brief summary of what the christians have done against the ancient religions of Europe. I hope that this is a warning for all the hindus....The christian have profaned and destroyed the temples of the Gods, they have tortured and killed the believers, men and women, they have destroyed the sacred texts...now only fragments remain, and crocks...and none remembers and none believes in the Gods.
in fact we are in the age of kali, and the followers of the asuras and of the adharma(in greek adikia)flourish...

314
Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the "pagans": The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324
Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

326
Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330
Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335
Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

341
Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346
New large - scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as... "magician".

353
An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

354
A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

356
A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

357
Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359
In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

361 to 363
Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

363
Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

364
Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

365
An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

370
Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

372
Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373
New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

375
The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

380
On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

381
On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives all rights of christians that return to the Pagan Religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

384
Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

385 to 388
Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop, "Saint" Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386
Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

388
Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

389 to 390
All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

391
On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

392
On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" ("gentilicia superstitio"). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, "Saints" Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius' edict declares: "the ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393
The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

395
Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396
On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.

397
"Demolish them!" Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.

398
The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

399
With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished: «Si qua in agris templa sunt, sine turba ac tumultu diruantur. His enim deiectis atque sublatis omnis superstitioni materia consumetur»

400
Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area.

401
The christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop, also a..,"Saint", Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and demolish the remaining nine still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

405
John Chrysostom sends his hordes of gray-clad monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

406
John Chrysostom collects funds from rich christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus, he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, "Saints" Epiphanius and Eutychius continue persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.

407
A new edict outlaws once more all non-christian acts of worship.

408
The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius, order together that all sculptures of the Pagan Temples be either destroyed or confiscated. Private ownership of Pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against Gentiles and new book burning. Judges showing pity for Gentiles are also persecuted.

409
Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death.

415
In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.

416
The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December), all non-christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423
Emperor Theodosius II, declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and tortured.

429
The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. Athenian Pagans are persecuted.

435
On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all "heretics" and "pagans" of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-christian Religion.

438
Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason for a recent
plague!

440 to 450
The christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

448
Theodosius II orders all non-christian books burned.

450
All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross).

451
A new edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that "idolatry" is to be punished by death.

457 to 491
Sporadic persecutions against Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of the island of Imbros, in the northeast Aegean. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488
The majority of the Gentiles of Asia Minor are exterminated, after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.

486
More "underground" Pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

515
Baptism becomes obligatory, even for those that already say they are christian. The Emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites

528
Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts, or cutting by iron nails) of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles.

529
Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy, which has its property confiscated.

532
The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Asia Minor.

542
Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished Pagan Temples.

546
Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

556
Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

562
Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582
Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis
(Baalbek).

580
Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.

583
New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.

590
Throughout the Eastern Empire, christian accusers "discover" Pagan conspiracies. A new wave of torture and executions erupts.

692
The "Penthekte" Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other Pagan / Dionysian festivals.

804
The Gentile Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.

950 to 988
Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon.

Now and forevermore:
Waiting for Kalki....the halls of Hades waits...

Salutations,
Tyrannos

atanu
25 November 2008, 10:23 PM
Salutations

An excellent post replete with very useful information. It shows that Christianity has less to do with humble teachings of Jesus but more to do with Rajasic passion of Roman rulers.

That tradition still continues.

Om

MahaHrada
26 November 2008, 06:14 AM
...humble teachings of Jesus...



Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking in a parable)
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

His disciples did (and still do) what the Master asked them to do ... no further comment necessary .....

Tyrannos
26 November 2008, 07:15 AM
Luke 19:27(Jesus speaking in a parable)
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

His disciples did (and still do) what the Master asked them to do ... no further comment necessary .....

Exactly!!! and then it would be absurd and and naïve to think that the christian priests have made things contrary to the teaching of their "god": and this quotation shows it...the Christians and the followers of the abrahamic religions have done and they exactly make the same things that Duryodana, Hiranyakashipu, Kamsa and other demoniac beings they have completed against the Gods and therefore against the eternal Dharma...in India and and on all the Earth...
And besides we remember what the Christians have done to the Witches, in India notes as Yogini...

Tyrannos

MahaHrada
26 November 2008, 07:43 AM
... followers of the abrahamic religions have done ..

Tyrannos

One should carefully divide between the culprits and their victims.
Followers of the Mosaic religion became victims of Islamist fanatics and of Christian fanatics. They where victims not culprits. They where persecuted tortured and killed, also this history of persecution has its root in the hate speeches that where spread by Jesus against other traditional religions and his desire to establish the supremacy of the worship of his own person.

John 8:44 (Jesus adressing priests of non christian judaic religion, as worshippers of the devil)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Again Jesus is adressing in this excerpt, traditional mosaic teachers as evil "vipers"

Matt 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Jesus wanted his enemies killed and placed at his feet and that included the priests of the judaic religion. Though he was aptly executed, apparently because his plans transpired, sadly his plans could not be stopped by his demise, and his disciples where sucessful in carrying them out on their own, after Jesus execution.
After the Emperor Julianus was assasinated, the last hope was lost and the cloak of the dark age could spread over the whole of the meditterenean countries and later over the whole of continental Europe and still later Americas ancient cultures where rooted out in an orgy of violence and bloodshed of innocents, as is the usual procedure.
Christianity has been destroying the scientific, cultural and religious achivements and the heritage of thousands of years and of many ancient nations, replacing the vast treasure of worldly sciences and divine wisdom, and traditional knowledge with gloomy superstition hate, intolerance, and materialism.
Luckily the influence of Christianity is waning during the last few hundred years, and the fanaticism has become less pronounced so there is some hope that the situation may permanently improve. The next few hundred years will show.

Tyrannos
26 November 2008, 09:21 AM
One should carefully divide between the culprits and their victims.
Followers of the Mosaic religion became victims of Islamist fanatics and of Christian fanatics. They where victims not culprits. They where persecuted tortured and killed, also this history of persecution has its root in the Hate speeches that where spread by Jesus against other traditional Religions and his desire to establish the supremacy of the worship of his own person.
The unity of the 3 abrahamic religions appears beyond the apparent differences and of the apparent conflicts: what then they are fought between them this it is due to their asuric nature that brings them up to the self-destruction...
In the ancient world there were never wars of religion among the different cultures followers of the Dharma, from the Ancient Egyptians, to the Greek, to the Romans, to the Babylonians, etc. Religious clashes happened in Egypt against the Hebrews that had destroyed the Temple of Serapis and not only...during the wars between Greeks and Persians (for these on the other hand Indra and all the Devas are the evil...), and against the christian...and this is only a brief summary...

Tyrannos

Tyrannos
26 November 2008, 09:44 AM
Hail!!!

This is another example of warning, in which the parallels with how much they tell us the sacred texts of Hindus respect the present age of Kali they are evident:

The Prophecy of Hermes Trismegistus( Hermes Three Times Great)to
Asclepius, concerning Egypt:

„Do you see, Asclepius, these lifeless statues, full of feeling and spirit
that do so many wonderful and meaningful deeds? I mean these statues
that foretell the truth, that bring illness and health, joy and sorrow into
the souls and bodies of men, according to their merits? Do you not
know, Asclepius, that Egypt is the image of the heavens or, better said, the abode of all things that are decided and done in heaven? Truly speaking, our land is the temple of the world.
But (alas), the time shall come when...this abode of Divinity shall be widowed of all religion,...foreign peoples shall come here, barbarians with no faith, no mercy, no law and no cult. Alas, Egypt, of your faith shall remain mere tales, unbelievable for the generations to come; and to tell of your pious habits shall remain stone-carved letters alone... .The darkness shall engulf the light, death shall be deemed more useful than life, no man shall raise his eyes to the heavens, the devout shall be deemed insane, the lawless shall be deemedmindful, the furious strong, and the wicked righteous. And believe you me, he who dedicates himself to the religion of the mind shall receive the death sentence: for new forms of justice shall be contrived, new laws, but nothing of what is sacred, nothing of what is truly religious; no thing worthy of the heavens and of the gods’ ears shall be uttered. The angels of injustice alone shall remain, who will mingle with the men, urging these wretches to commit ill deeds deeming them righteous, inciting wars, pillagers’ plunders, and all other things inimical to the soul and the
natural justice; and this shall be the old age and orderlessness and
religiouslessness of the world. But fear not, Asclepius, for after these
things come to pass, our Lord and Father, the ruler of the world, the
almighty and all-seeing God, by force of flood, fire, disease, plague or
other means of His merciful justice, shall doubtlessly put an end to this
shame, restoring to the world its face of yore.“


Tyrannos

MahaHrada
26 November 2008, 09:49 AM
There is friendship between Judaism and Hinduism, both religions are non proselytizing and have a history of peaceful coexistence during thousands of years.

They have been and are victims of the same Alliance of Muslims and Christians.

Anti semtic propaganda will not be successful in a Hindu environment. Fascism is not tolerated in Bharata dharma.

Some interesting links for your information:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2008/4-6/09_opinion.shtml

Both Hinduism and Judaism are non-proselytizing faiths, so we find it difficult to understand those who target us for conversion. We are sensitive about monotheistic zealots who besmirch our religions, and we work together to strive against such defamation. In America, Jews are "elder brothers " of Hindus; as such, we instinctively jump to defend a Hindu community's plans to build a temple when, as is sometimes the case, local folk object. Jews believe that our freedom of religion is best protected by ensuring that all religious minorities enjoy this same right.
Nathan Katz

http://islamicdangerstill.blogspot.com/2008/10/yehudi-hindu-bhai-bhai-jews-and-hindus.html

Indeed the parallel struggles for self-determination by the Jews and Hindus has been largely ignored. The domination of India' institutions and organs of education by a motley collection of Marxists, Islamists, Macaulites, pseudo-Dalits, and Christians has led not only to Hinduphobic indoctrination of anyone who aspired to be intellectual or just plain informed, but a streak of anti-Semitism in a land where it had no place.

Ranbir Singh

Tyrannos
26 November 2008, 10:11 AM
There is friendship between Judaism and Hinduism, both religions are non proselytizing and have a history of peaceful coexistence during thousands of years.

They have been and are victims of the same Alliance of Muslims and Christians.

Anti semtic propaganda will not be successful in a Hindu environment. Fascism is not tolerated in Bharata dharma.

I arrange that the Jewish religion doesn't make proselytism, but it needs to remember that before the Jewish religion came, then the Christianity and finally the islam...same origin... I have remembered already then that the followers of these three religions are always in war between them...the Hebrews are victims of the mussulmanis, but also vice versa, and so on....but they are the same thing...the ethic and the vision of the divinity in these 3 religions it is the same one...
And I have never spoken of anti-Semitism, since also the Assyrian ones, the Phoenician ones, the Babylonians, etc. they were Semitic populations:)

Tyrannos

MahaHrada
26 November 2008, 10:38 AM
I arrange that the Jewish religion doesn't make proselytism, but it needs to remember that before the Jewish religion came, then the Christianity and finally the islam...same origin... I have remembered already then that the followers of these three religions are always in war between them...the Hebrews are victims of the mussulmanis, but also vice versa, and so on....but they are the same thing...the ethic and the vision of the divinity in these 3 religions it is the same one...
And I have never spoken of anti-Semitism, since also the Assyrian ones, the Phoenician ones, the Babylonians, etc. they were Semitic populations:)

Tyrannos

I can only repeat what is pointed out by the Links i provided. History is well known and there are no recorded incidents of proselytizing or aggressive behaviour of traditional jewish communities towards other religions in known history.

Also there are no incidents of communal problems in the history of Jews that lived in India as Nathan Katz pointed out:

"First, Jews have lived freely in India for perhaps two thousand years. When the Cochin Synagogue celebrated its four hundredth anniversary in 1968, it was a major news event in India. Hindus pride themselves on tolerance, and India's unique position as the only nation in the world with no anti-Semitism reinforces this cherished self-perception. When Jews come to learn that some of us have lived freely, peacefully and creatively for so long in India, we are surprised and delighted, and we admire Hinduism as the only civilization immune to Jew-hatred. We learn that anti-Semitism is not universal, and that it is possible to preserve Jewish identity and religion in the absence of persecution. For this, we feel deep gratitude."

Excerpt from the other link i provided where Ranbir Singh remarks correctly:

The Jews and Hindus are two ancient nations, survivals from a more enlightened era which we are hopefully once again entering as the new millennium dawns, and dogmatic ideologies are shelved by intelligent people. They have faced common enemies, being victims of the aforementioned dogmas: the religious dogma of Christianity, the colonialist Orwellianism of Islam, the pseudo-rationalism of Marxism, and the racial fundamentalism of Nazism. Presently they face two challenges. One is from a resurgent Nazism, presented by figures such as David Duke (www.duke.org (http://www.duke.org)) in North America, and Le Pen and Haider in Europe. Yet the most pressing danger is Islam, which aims at the conversion or physical liquidation of Jews and Hindus, and with that Israel and Bharat.

Artemidora
26 November 2008, 04:10 PM
Salutations!

I am very happy that a similar discussion has been open considering our common actual situation, in the western world, and also in whole Asia...
and also that such a warning has been given in a similar forum - I hope for its importance doesn't lose subsequently to useless incomprehensions...for us all!

I owe in fact to ascertain the complete loss of the Religious memory, in this part of the world, and her total destruction it is by now a finished thing...our hope, ever, is only this: every thing returns later, even in its changed form...and also in this words spoken out by a great Goddess, Diana Efesia, about Her cult and the persistence of the real devotion:

"I can be see unhonoured truly, but never unavenged!"

To this intention, it is rightful to remember the divinely inspired phenomenon of the Witchcraft:
as justly Tyrannos has remembered, in the hinduist tradition, They are remembered as the excellent Yoginis, companions and at the service of Durga or Kalii, the Great One or the Beautiful One.
And it's evident the identification among Kalii and Hecate, among Hecate - Diana - Artemis, among these Goddesses and the presence of the knowledge of the magic among the human beings, for their benefit and elevation and glory...again, as it is said in the Puranas and Tantra, Their action have this only purpose.
And the purpose of the Devote, or the magician, is only to be in the service of Her again and again...a perfect circle, broken or almost so by those who are unfaithfuls!
In fact here in Europe the persecutions and injustices against those people who knew the ancient secrets and past cults, long honoured, have been long and painful; what survive now? You can see it by yourself!!! And now we ear the unrighteous ones saying "They are mad and their truth is only madness..."...And this is very important, not only Witchcraft, but the whole Religion of Dharma in Her completeness is considered and condamned so by very (so much!!!) very long time!!!
So is the vision of the modern world, but we were at least prepared for it, by ancient and renewed warnings, in the words of Sages and in what is now visible and realized.

I would want to conclude however with an ancient western quotation that is a lot in tuning with how much writing previously by others and very impressive for the actual condition of Hinduism; this is again referred to the veneration of Diana (or Parvati, as You all wish!):

"And when a christian priest shall do you injury
by his benedictions, ye shall do to him
double the harm, and do it in the name
of me, Diana, Queen of Witches all!
and when the christian priests
shall say to you that you should put your faith
in father, son and mary, then reply:
your god , the father and mary are
three demons (asuras)
for the true God, the Father, is not yours,
for I've come to sweep away the unrighteous,
the men of injustice, all will I destroy!"


Hoping to be useful to you all in this discussion...

Salutations!

atanu
26 November 2008, 11:20 PM
Exactly!!! and then it would be absurd and and naïve to think that the christian priests have made things contrary to the teaching of their "god": and this quotation shows it...the Christians and the followers of the abrahamic religions have done and they exactly make the same things that Duryodana, Hiranyakashipu, Kamsa and other demoniac beings they have completed against the Gods and therefore against the eternal Dharma...in India and and on all the Earth...
And besides we remember what the Christians have done to the Witches, in India notes as Yogini...

Tyrannos

Namaste,

Actually it is naive to assume that Vedas and Upanishads do not teach of slaying -- slaying Vritta and all sorts of Asuras. If Ravana or Hiranyakashipu acted as per their Gunas, one should not blame the scripture and God.


I am very certain (and can show evidence) that no scripture teaches what we ascribe, as a generality, to groups of people who are impelled by their own gunas. I do not believe that the Terrorists who gunned down more than 80 people in Bombay, did so because of teaching of Kuran. They did so because of their tormented Guna mixture -- jealousy, hatred, anger, intolerance etc. Before advent of Kuran or of Jesus also, these western tribes were more animalistic and instinctive than the civilized eastern societies.

In fact, you will find that scriptures do teach to each community the ways to overcome their particular gunas. This is described in Da-Da-Da story in the Upanishad.

Similarly, the apparent weak state that Hinduism has gone through and is in at present cannot be ascribed to the teachings of Vedas, Upanishads and Gita. The fault lies with our own Guna mixture. For example Veda teaches that Brahmin is Purusha's head and Shudra is Purusha's feet. But instead of bowing down touching Purusha's feet, which provide support to all, we have termed Shudra's as untouchables.

Da-Da-Da story is the essence.


Om Namah Shivaya

sm78
27 November 2008, 01:07 AM
Namaste,

I am very certain (and can show evidence) that no scripture teaches what we ascribe, as a generality, to groups of people who are impelled by their own gunas. I do not believe that the Terrorists who gunned down more than 80 people in Bombay, did so because of teaching of Kuran. They did so because of their tormented Guna mixture -- jealousy, hatred, anger, intolerance etc. Before advent of Kuran or of Jesus also, these western tribes were more animalistic and instinctive than the civilized eastern societies.



None-the-less, the role of the poisonous doctrines and their founders, which provide necessary means of outlet of this "batman-movie like" violence, need not be underplayed.

There are only muderers, robbers, rapists, fascists, so we condemn murder, robber, rape & fascism. Same holds for jehad (koranism) and bible-ism.

You might do well to reflect what Guna is causing you reason out that terrorists did not kill because of Koran.

My guess is Tama, I also guess you think its Sattva.

Btw, a factual correction, Ravana and Hiranyakashipu were not swearing by the vedas, unlike these guys (swearing by jehad). R & H were known enemies of the vedic dharma.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, if someone is wondering why our society is in attack so much, it is not because of some past karma of humiliating sudras (we have become too good in blaming the present on unknown past, it keeps us morally free from present duties) but our present preoccupation with our body and our infatuations (physical, mental & spiritual) ~ not wondering for a moment what happens to the rest around us, always trying to grab more for oneself.

Asurik mentality is preferable to the selfish weaklings we have become and this is what nature has store for us. At least the asuriks have a greater goal.

atanu
27 November 2008, 02:02 AM
None-the-less, the role of the poisonous doctrines and their founders, which provide necessary means of outlet of this "batman-movie like" violence, need not be underplayed.

There are only muderers, robbers, rapists, fascists, so we condemn murder, robber, rape & fascism. Same holds for jehad (koranism) and bible-ism.

You might do well to reflect what Guna is causing you reason out that terrorists did not kill because of Koran.

My guess is Tama, I also guess you think its Sattva.

Sorry, btw.

Namaste SM,

You need not be sorry at all. Guna drives us all and your guess about my guna composition is not under contention. I agree. Similarly, not understanding the meaning of Da-Da-Da is pure Tamas.

But you have yourself highlighted, unwittingly I must say, that it is Guna that drives and that highlighting a fragment of scripture as an evidence of 'advice for physical violence' is not warranted. OTOH, fight against Rajasic-Tamasic Guna is fully warranted and it starts from oneself because all these problems that we are witness to and are affected by are the results of ignorance of ONE CONSCIOUSNESS -- within and without.

Om Namah Shivaya


I am very validly reasoning out that the Muslim Terrorists are not adherants of Kuran because Kuran says as below:

2

84. And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).

85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
-----------------------

May Ilah guide us all unto a straight path to Shiva--the Good. Kuran surely is teaching that "Mankind is one" and "Do not shed blood". It also teaches that differences are on account of hatred alone.


Om

devotee
27 November 2008, 03:26 AM
I am very validly reasoning out that the Muslim Terrorists are not adherants of Kuran because Kuran says as below:

84. And when We made with you a covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people nor turn (a party of) your people out of your dwellings. Then ye ratified (Our covenant) and ye were witnesses (thereto).

85. Yet ye it is who slay each other and drive out a party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you. Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom. For Allah is not unaware of what ye do

213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
-----------------------

May Ilah guide us all unto a straight path to Shiva--the Good. Kuran surely is teaching that "Mankind is one" and "Do not shed blood". It also teaches that differences are on account of hatred alone.


Namaste Atanu,

You have selected nice verses. However, unfortunately, the people who are on the path of killing innocent people mercilessly don't draw the same meaning that you are drawing from them.

They misinterprete those verses very cunningly & state that those are applicable only within their own community i.e. who are Muslims & not to others. They also find many toxic verses to establish that killing the "infidels" i.e non-believers of Islam is their holy duty & if they do that they would be handsomly rewarded in heaven etc..

There are verses which support killing ( I am purposefully not mentioning them) & there are verses which declare killing a grave crime. We need more of Muslim scholars to give correct intrepretation of all those verses to save mankind from this cruel bloodshed of the innocents.

Regards,

OM

atanu
27 November 2008, 03:29 AM
Finally, if someone is wondering why our society is in attack so much, it is not because of some past karma of humiliating sudras (we have become too good in blaming the present on unknown past, it keeps us morally free from present duties) but our present preoccupation with our body and our infatuations (physical, mental & spiritual) ~ not wondering for a moment what happens to the rest around us, always trying to grab more for oneself.

Asurik mentality is preferable to the selfish weaklings we have become and this is what nature has store for us. At least the asuriks have a greater goal.

My dear Friend,

I see that new material got added. I request you to please desist from veiled personal references etc. No one else has wondered anything except me who wrote:

Veda teaches that Brahmin is Purusha's head and Shudra is Purusha's feet. But instead of bowing down touching Purusha's feet, which provide support to all, we have termed Shudras as untouchables.
--------------

Yes, I do wonder how Shudra, which represents the feet of Vishnu can ever become untouchable? You see that this is not a veiled personal reference but an open logical question. I have not wondered why our society is under attack. It is evident that the whole world is in the grip of Kali. The whole world is under attack from negative forces of greed on one side and the anger on the other side. Santana Dharma being about self questioning, being about adhering to the truth without fear, and being about the Self, is best equipped to deal with the grip of Kali, provided we remember that eko hi rudra. dvittiya nA tasthu.


OM

atanu
27 November 2008, 04:09 AM
Namaste Atanu,

You have selected nice verses. However, unfortunately, the people who are on the path of killing innocent people mercilessly don't draw the same meaning that you are drawing from them.

They misinterprete those verses very cunningly & state that those are applicable only within their own community i.e. who are Muslims & not to others. They also find many toxic verses to establish that killing the "infidels" i.e non-believers of Islam is their holy duty & if they do that they would be handsomly rewarded in heaven etc..

There are verses which support killing ( I am purposefully not mentioning them) & there are verses which declare killing a grave crime. We need more of Muslim scholars to give correct intrepretation of all those verses to save mankind from this cruel bloodshed of the innocents.

Regards,

OM

Namaste Devotee,

You are correct and I agree fully. Note that what you say is included in the verse itself: "Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof?" which then goes on to state: "Mankind were one community".

So, these set of verses is not talking of Muslims and Non-Muslims, but it announces rather in a straight forward way that Mankind were one community".


On the instructions of killing the "infidels" i.e non-believers of Islam.

There are very many verses where Indra kills those who are disobedient. And we know that western interpreters have given very physical meaning to these Indra's fights. They have tried to divide south and north. The victors and servants etc. That is typically western academics. What else to expect? The point is deeper. "Islam" as understood today is name of a faith of certain group. But the original meaning of Islam is "Surrender". Does Gita not teach that the "Self slays those who harbour hatred of the Self"?


I cannot support Terrorism, which I think should be dealt with mercilessly going above political considerations. I agree that in today's world mainly the people who call themselves Muslims are Terrorists. I also add the evident observation that most of those who evangelise yet loot poor countries of money and resources and sell armaments so that hatred never stops are mostly christians. But I think that attributing Terrorism to scripture and to the whole group who follow that scripture is another wrong.

Regards

Om

atanu
27 November 2008, 05:06 AM
HT Breaking News: (16.14 Hrs IST)

Security forces have secured the Taj hotel in Mumbai one of the three sites where they launched operations to flush out terrorists. The other two -- Trident Hotel and Nariman house are still under siege.-------------

Latest reports indicate that terrorists, about 10-12 in number in Taj alone, have made some ransom demands but Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister RR Patil said the authorities have't recieved any demands yet.

He said five of the dozen terrorists in Taj have been killed while one has been captured and was being interrogated.

----------------

That is the only positive news.

Om

reflections
27 November 2008, 06:36 AM
atanu,
This is a very random question,
I heared some ppl saying that ATS chief recieved the result of his karma. As he probed Shadvi Pragya, he recieved this penalty.

Where as I felt, investigating Sadhvi or fighting Islamic terrorists both were part of his Swadharma. He might have failed somewhere in his duties but all humans do that.

The best death for a Kshatriya (Police/commando in todays term) is on the battle field protecting his ppl. So rather he got good thing. And he dies doing very good karma.

Is my interpretation correct or theirs?




HT Breaking News: (16.14 Hrs IST)

Security forces have secured the Taj hotel in Mumbai one of the three sites where they launched operations to flush out terrorists. The other two -- Trident Hotel and Nariman house are still under siege.-------------

Latest reports indicate that terrorists, about 10-12 in number in Taj alone, have made some ransom demands but Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister RR Patil said the authorities have't recieved any demands yet.

He said five of the dozen terrorists in Taj have been killed while one has been captured and was being interrogated.

----------------

That is the only positive news.

Om

Tyrannos
27 November 2008, 07:52 AM
Hail!!!
For before thing I hold to say that I have opened not this discussion to speak and to discuss of abrahamitic religions : there is a special section for this... However I repeat: one are not able and one must not distinguish between the believers of a religion and the teachings of the same religion. Simply the terrorist acts of the mussulamanis put the teachings of their religion into effect: the holy war of the mussulamanis must be direct against those people who revere the Gods, these are for them the infidels. I hope that the Memory has preserved the memories of what the mussulmanis they have done when they have conquered India....the various impieties committed in Rajastan, etc.
Besides any mussulamn religious authority has ever condemned the terrorist actions, rather...

The Arch-Enemy of the abrahamitic religions is Satan, the Lord of Hell:
in Hindu Dharma the Lord of Hell is Yama...in the Ancient Egyptian Religion the Lord of Hell is Osiris...in the Ancient Greek Religion the Lord of Hell is Hades....Yama is DharmaRaja: therefore the Arch-Enemy of the abrahamitic religions is Dharma.
The sacred texts say that it needs to cut the tongue to those people who speak badly of Shiva: this is not a matter of revenge but a matter of Dharma. And those who follow adharma are the asuras. To destroy the temples of the Gods and to kill the believers this are actions against the Dharma: the so called "prophet" of islam together with his companions exterminated all those people that in arabia and not only revered the Gods, he destroyed the temples of the Gods to impose the cult of his "god". I have read in many texts that the black stone in arabia it is a Linga of Shiva: and we know that the mussulmanis throw stones against this stone

But I repeat that this is not the appropriate topic to discuss of abrahamitic religions :here it needs to speak of all the impious actions against the ancient religions of the world, against the so-called "pagan" religions; impious actions that are a warning for the Hindu Dharma.
And this is not a matter of revenge but a matter of Dharma...

The History of Witchcraft this is a matter very important and interesting...
Dianus or Lucifero it is a God of the Withcraft, brother, child and consort of the goddess Diana, Lord of the Light and of the Morning.
Lucifero, or Lucifer is the ancient name of a Roman divinity, identified with the Greek "Eosforos" (the torch of Eos or Aurora, the fire-brand), and with the Star of the morning. He is associated with Satan.
Dianus Lucifero is also known as Dis-Pater in the aspect of God of the Death and as Lupercus in the aspect of "Child of the Promise", carrier of hope and Light. It has mainly three aspects:
The One with the horns: Master of the wild forests and God of the fertility and Love and of the Life and Death.
The hooded one: Master of beasts (like Shiva Pashupata) and of the plants. King of the crop and Lord of the flora;
The elderly one: Master of the wisdom and keeper of the sanctuaries.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/6/64/Sabba_quadro_di_Goya.jpg

Tyrannos

Tyrannos
27 November 2008, 09:05 PM
Hail!!!
Speaking of the end of the religions faithful to the Dharma in Ancient Europe is rightful to say something about a christian Roman "emperor": theodosius I.
All of its decisions and actions were inspired by ambrogio, bishop of Milan, his "spiritual" and "religious" guide; this ambrogio is revered by the christians as a saint: in the catholic religion the appellative "saint" it is given to that "faithful" that during his life he is distinguished for the exercise of the christian virtues in heroic form. The saint reveals in his actions the will of the christian "god", something that the believers must follow and must imitate: the model of christian life.

His first attack against the religions faithful to the Dharma was to forbid the Sacrifices.

In 388 he sent a prefect in Asia, Egypt and Syria to destroy the Temples of the Gods and the religious associations.

The Fire (an Eternal Fire) in the Temple of Vesta in Rome was extinguished together with the Vestal Virgins.

Theodosius cancelled the Olympic games, and the reckoning of dates by Olympiads soon came to an end: theodosius, with the blessing of bishop ambrogio, banned these games simply because they had classical and pagan origins. He also banned the Roman festival of Aktia, which was the Roman version of these pan-Hellenic games. Christians then proceeded to destroy the Temples of Olympia.

Those people who sacrificed to the Gods they were condemned to death.
Alexandria's bishop Theophilus began a systematic campaign to destroy or confiscate all pagan temples and libraries within the See of Alexandria's jurisdiction. Theophilus initiated relentless and violent persecutions against the pagans. The Patriarch wanted to send a message to non-Christians and set a ruthless example. With the Prefect Evagrius' blessings, soldiers from the garrison and mobs of zealous christians joined in the city wide destruction of pagan temples. With this violent mob in tow, Theophilis started to take over and renovate the famed Temple of Serapis. The christians sought to mock and ridicule the pagan mysteries of the majority which drew a violent response. The pagan philosopher Olympius led a revolt, fighting back at the Temple of Serapis. After pitched battles and mob violence in the streets they retreated and fortified themselves inside the Temple. A siege followed and the christians finally took the Temple, demolished it, and burned down its famous Library.

Continuing down the road of persecution and oppression, temples and libraries were being confiscated, plundered or burned down. In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite was confiscated and in order to mock the pagans, became a brothel for soldiers. The Temples of the Sun and of Artemis become horse stables for the army. In the next decade, Cynegius, his zealous wife, the bishop Marcellus and gangs of Christian fanatics searched more of the rural regions, turning over every stone in search of temples and altars to destroy. They destroyed hundreds of Hellenic temples and religious monuments. They cut down the Sacred Groves. Not content with rooting out the rural regions, the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra were looted and destroyed. Thousands of pagans from all parts of the Empire would sent to be tortured and die in the christian death camps of Skythopolis.

Pagan priests were paraded and mocked in the streets and then stoned to death.
Sozomen in Histories Book 7 wrote:
"The bishop of Alexandria, to whom the temple of Dionysus had, at his own request, been granted by the emperor, converted the edifice into a church. The statues were removed, the adyta were exposed; and, in order to cast contumely on the pagan mysteries, he made a procession for the display of these objects; the phalli, and whatever other object had been concealed in the adyta which really was, or seemed to be, ridiculous, he made a public exhibition of."
Socrates Scholasticus in his Histories Book 6, Chapter 16:
"Theophilus(a christian bishop) exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt."
"the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen Temples. These were therefore burned to the ground, and the images of their Gods molten into pots and other convenient utensils for the use of the Alexandrian church; for the emperor had instructed Theophilus to distribute them for the relief of the poor. All the images were accordingly broken to pieces, except one statue of the God before mentioned, which Theophilus preserved and set up in a public place; `Lest,´ said he, `at a future time the heathens should deny that they had ever worshipped such Gods."

I am not saying that christianity teaches to kill, but that christianity teaches to act against the Dharma and against the Gods:
Deuteronomy 17:3-7: "...If anyone hath gone and served other Gods, and worshipped them, either the Sun, or Moon, or any of the Host of Heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

And this is a brief summary of his laws against the Dharma, asuric laws that were inspired and undersigned by a christian "saint":

"No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. ... The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword." -- Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4


"Whatever privileges have been allowed under ancient law to priests, ministers, prefects and hierophants of the pagan cults, whether know by these or other names, are to be entirely abolished, nor should they pride themselves on being protected by any privilege, since their profession is known to be condemned by law." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.14

"Let superstition cease. Let the madness of sacrifices be exterminated; for if anyone should dare to celebrate sacrifices in violation of the law of our father, the deified Emperor, and of this decree of Our Clemency, let an appropriate punishment and sentence immediately be inflicted on him." -- Codex Theodosianus

"No person shall pollute himself with sacrificial animals; no person shall slaughter an innocent victim; no person shall approach the shrines, shall wander through the temples, or revere the images formed by mortal labor, lest he become guilty by divine and human laws." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.10.

"It is necessary that the privileges which are bestowed for the cultivation of religion should be given only to followers of the Catholic faith. We desire that heretics and schismatics be not only kept from these privileges, but be subjected to various fines." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.5. 1.

"The ability and right of making wills shall be taken from those who turn from Christians to pagans, and the testament of such an one, if he made any, shall be abrogated after his death."-- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.7.1.

"We command that all those proved to be devoting themselves to sacrificing or worshipping images be subject to the penalty of death." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.6

" It is decreed that in all places and all cities the temples should be closed at once, and after a general warning, the opportunity of sinning be taken from the wicked. We decree also that we shall cease from making sacrifices. And if anyone has committed such a crime, let him be stricken with the avenging sword. And we decree that the property of the one executed shall be claimed by the city, and that rulers of the provinces be punished in the same way, if they neglect to punish such crimes."Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.4.

"Let all temples in the countryside be demolished without disturbance or upheaval. With their overthrow and removal, all material basis for superstition will be destroyed." -- Codex Theodosianus, XVI.10.16

(Source: Brian Croke & Jill Harries (eds.), Religious Conflict in Fourth-Century Rome: A Documentary Study, Sydney: Macarthur Press, 1982).


"[Christian monks}... hasten to attack the temples with sticks and stones and bars of iron, and in some cases, disdaining these, with hands and feet. Then utter desolation follows, with the stripping of roofs, demolition of walls, the tearing down of statues and the overthrow of altars, and the priests must either keep quiet or die. After demolishing one, they scurry to another, and to a third, and trophy is piled on trophy, in contravention of the law. Such outrages occur even in the cities, but they are most common in the countryside ..." -- Letter of Libanius to Emperor Theodosius I, 386 C.E.
Source: Libanius: Selected Works, Tr. A.F. Norman (Loeb Classical Works, 1977)

"All writings whatever which Porphyry or anyone else has written against the Christian religion, in the possession of whomsoever they shall be found, shall be committed to the fire." -- Emperor Theodosius I.
Source: Lardner, Works, vol. vii., pp. 206, 396.


Acts 19:26-29, "..this paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no Gods, which are made with hands: So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians."
The Temple of Diana of Ephesus is better known as the Temple of Artemis, one of the Seven Wonders of the World.

Tyrannos

atanu
27 November 2008, 10:42 PM
atanu,
This is a very random question,
I heared some ppl saying that ATS chief recieved the result of his karma. As he probed Shadvi Pragya, he recieved this penalty.

Where as I felt, investigating Sadhvi or fighting Islamic terrorists both were part of his Swadharma. He might have failed somewhere in his duties but all humans do that.

The best death for a Kshatriya (Police/commando in todays term) is on the battle field protecting his ppl. So rather he got good thing. And he dies doing very good karma.

Is my interpretation correct or theirs?


Namaste Reflections,

Yes, I agree with your view, though 'your and their' must be understood to be a language construct only. Else, 'yours and theirs' becomes the main theme and cause of unnecessary strife.

(Just wished to note again that those who say that ATS chief died because of harassing Sadhvi are seeing only one side. One can easily retort back that "Well Hindus that are dying are dying because of some such atrocity commited against Muslims or some others".)

So, Hail to Vedas.

Sarve janah sukhino bhavantu

Let happiness prevail for all

Om

devotee
28 November 2008, 12:37 AM
Namaste Tyrannos,

It is not clear what you want by posting all this. And why are you unnecessarily linking Goddess Parvati with Diana of witchcraft ?

I don't say what happend in the name of Judaism, Christianity or Islam was correct but things have changed a lot today. In my opinion, in the dark age & earlier the bloody fights between various clans & tribes were quite common. Similarly to furher their aim of colonisation, the Europian Christian countries attacked other countries who were non-christian & commited atrocities on hapless people there. Though Church supported the attacks but it cannot be said that Christianity as a whole was bad. We must differentiate between the Church & Christianity.

If we are able to explore, there must be many instances where the Pagans would have indulged in mindless killings. Such traits are not unique to christianity only.

... And finally, I do object to your equating Hinduism with witchcraft & other pagan religions. There is nothings like Vedas, Vedanta or enlightenment in those religions.

Your posting such chosen texts without considering the whole context & the whole truth is going to create hatred among communities only. There is no point raking up these issues & create emotinal disturbances. This all will lead to pains & more pains. Let's find something which is good in Abrahimic religions, let's find all those elements which are good in pagan religions & find reasons to live in this world peacefully. A crime is simply a crime, it is not Christian or Islamic or Pagan. Let's not associate the crime against humanity which have been perpetrated in the past or which are being done even today, with any religion.

OM

reflections
28 November 2008, 03:08 AM
There are many things committed in name of Islam and Christianity, agreed.
But, I don't like to club Judaism with the other Abrahimic faiths. Some features abt Judasim I like is:
- It is of non prolythyzing nature. They do accept converts but converts should have a strong inclination by themselves.
- Judaism does not believe that non Jews will be in hell eternally. It says the evil souls will cease to exist and rest all will attain heaven (kind of Moksha).

sm78
28 November 2008, 04:23 AM
My dear Friend,

I see that new material got added. I request you to please desist from veiled personal references etc. No one else has wondered anything except me who wrote:

Veda teaches that Brahmin is Purusha's head and Shudra is Purusha's feet. But instead of bowing down touching Purusha's feet, which provide support to all, we have termed Shudras as untouchables.
--------------

Yes, I do wonder how Shudra, which represents the feet of Vishnu can ever become untouchable? You see that this is not a veiled personal reference but an open logical question. I have not wondered why our society is under attack. It is evident that the whole world is in the grip of Kali. The whole world is under attack from negative forces of greed on one side and the anger on the other side. Santana Dharma being about self questioning, being about adhering to the truth without fear, and being about the Self, is best equipped to deal with the grip of Kali, provided we remember that eko hi rudra. dvittiya nA tasthu.


OM

The sages of yore (vashistha to vishamitra) get mighty angry ever so often in our shastras when they see non-sense. So much so that their titles are testimony to the fact. And, I am just a very ordinary being.

Sadhana is all about practice of both fire & water.This does not imply pouring water the moment one sees a spark.

sm78
28 November 2008, 04:32 AM
To Tyrannos,

This might not be the right place to publish views on Xian and Meccaist barbarisms. Also a few people here already know and believe what you say, other never seem to believe or agree to see any faults in religions.

So it doesn't serve much purpose in this forum.

MahaHrada
28 November 2008, 05:16 AM
Namaste
.....but things have changed a lot today. ...



You are right things changed but not because of a change of the christian attitude but because they have been removed from control of the government and army by force.

But today there are still instances of genocide and slaughter caused by christian indoctrination.

Your remarks that the pre christian civilisations where not on par with that of Bharat is incorrect. I have been to Egypt, Greece Italia Cyprus and other places where one can see the remnants of these ancient civilisations.

I have seen with my own eyes that the Christians and Muslims reverted these highly evolved civilisations literally back to stone age by destruction of their achievements and brainwashing of the minds. We cannot change the past but remember it to prevent that such a destruction happens to Bharat today.

I guess you have seen the media coverage on the war in mumbai, maybe you have noted the terrorists are very young and nonetheless they are willing to go on a mission which will shurely end with their death and are willing to shoot countless innocent bystanders. Do you or anybody else sincerely belive that such a mad and barbaric behaviour has developed independent of belief in the content of the Kuran?

It is the so called surrender to God and his will and the promise of a life in heaven when you die a martyr killing infidels and other such inhuman ideas implanted by brainwash and backward social structures since childhood that is causing this erratic behaviour.

These ideas and other similar ones, equally inhuman are still part and parcel of Islam and Christianity today as well as in the past.

For your information i quote this excerpt of an article on the massacres in Rwanda that happened during 1998 and not in some distant past.


"One priest even burned down his own church to kill hundreds of Tutsis who had taken sanctuary there. Two priests were sentenced to death in 1998 for their roles in this genocide and two Benedictine nuns who supplied gasoline for the burning of Tutsi civilians sheltered in their church fled to Belgium where they were later convicted of complicity to murder.

“Sister Maria Kisito, who received 12 years, and her Mother Superior, Sister Gertrude, who received 15 years, were convicted of aiding in the slaughter of some 7,000 people who sought refuge at their convent in southern Rwanda. Prosecutors argued that they called in Hutu militiamen to drive people out of the convent knowing they would be killed, and later provided gasoline that militiamen used to set fire to a garage in which about 500 Tutsis had taken refuge.” (Washington Post, June 9, 2001)[6] (http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/christian-missionary-atrocities.html#_ftn6)


http://www.burningcross.net/inquisition/missionaries/rwanda_genocide.jpgOf course the Catholic Church has claimed their clergy were acting independently of the church, even though much of the most notable genocide occurred in churches and it is well known that the church's policy has been for centuries to divide and convert, to sew dissention between ethnic groups and then move in and take advantage of the chaos to offer Christian solace and conversion.

In the end nearly one million civilians were butchered.

http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/christian-missionary-atrocities.html

sm78
28 November 2008, 05:20 AM
But I think that attributing Terrorism to scripture and to the whole group who follow that scripture is another wrong.


Just a jentle question, do you also believe it is wrong to blame

Mien Kempf & Hitler, for the Holocaust?
The Red Book, for Maoist massacres?

saidevo
28 November 2008, 05:47 AM
Each one of us might have a differing POV, some steeped in Advaita, as with the POV of Atanu's, but I think it is imperative for every Hindu to know the dark side of the Abrahamic religions and be critical about it, because only then we can fully appreciate the havoc they are currently bringing in on the Hindu religion.

Tyrannos and MahaHrada have done a great job in highlighting the negative, violent and inhuman activities in the history of the Abrahamic religions. Since HDF is also a repository of documents, I would request them to compile in brief all points on what they have begun.

There will be no religion if there are no followers. In this sense, which is practical, it is the followers who make up the religions more than the scriptures do. In the case of Abrahamic religions, it is a big question: the divinity of their scriptural revelations. More and more evidence is turning up questioning the historical existence of Jesus, Moses and even Mohammad, and the historical events relating to their lives.

Therefore, in the interest of protecting the Hindus and subsisting them in Hinduism, it is necessary that we know the history of Abrahamic religions, and how they have served vested interests to destory humanity. As Tyrannos has rightly pointed out, this is Kali Yuga, an age in which none of can ever hope to achieve the Advaitic heights of spirituality we long for and practice, at least in the next few births, so let us be practical about the history and the current situation.

atanu
28 November 2008, 07:14 AM
Namaste saidevoji,

I agree to most of your points since they are reasonable. If you see the beginning of the post, you will see that I welcomed the compilation. Still I cannot come to an agreement that if a Muslim is impelled to kill, he is impelled by Kuran and not by his animalistic instincts. I have provided evidence that Kuran does not teach blood shedding and hatred and indeed it preaches that mankind were one.

Similarly, Jesus teaches Be Ye perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect. It teaches "Be Perfect yourself first". It does not teach "--- go and indoctrinate others and make them perfect". This impulsion is again related to Guna and not to the teachings.

We cannot put the Cart before the Horse. Appropriate scripture is provided to overcome particular Guna nature. It is not the other way that a Scripture has made a people cruel or greedy. To believe in the latter is to discount the power of God as the Guru. The latter belief also goes against the teachings of scripture, such as the Da-Da-Da story.


That does not indicate that I am exhorting to passively accept injustice, criminality etc. . (as if i had any power to stop or promote anything?). On the contrary, engaging common Muslim friends with goodwill, showing them that indeed Kuran prohibits blood shedding will do good rather than bad. It will help to isolate the terrorists and will not allienate all. OTOH, venting anger (on internet or elsewhere) will do nothing but bad.

One must tell me this. As a Government official what is my svadharma? Is it to fuel divisiveness? Or is it to take up a gun and go for a hot pursuit? The defence of country is left to Khatriyas -- the military and the police. We must by all means strengthen these, by being unified and rising above petty groupisms. Towards that American President elect and UN Chief both have said "The centres of Terrorism must be wiped away". Yes. If necessary by hot pursuit, taking into confidence as many groups as we can to minimise the damage to society. We may help to build a consensus.

OTOH, by venting anger on Koran or Bible will only alienate the good believers of these scriptures.

I just wish to note that this is a most serious and delicate matter and though common rank and file may make a lot of noise, Shri Advani has maintained a balanced position. We must also recognise that, in a Democracy, it is most impractical to plan a course of action leaving out a section of society. Such a plan will never succeed.

I do not know whether I am proposing an impractical and unreasonable course? I leave this for your judgement, since I have full faith on your reasonableness and your wisdom.

-------------------


As Tyrannos has rightly pointed out, this is Kali Yuga, an age in which none of can ever hope to achieve the Advaitic heights of spirituality we long for and practice, at least in the next few births, so let us be practical about the history and the current situation.

Well, Ramana Guru teaches that such a thought is the greatest impediment towards knowing that which is ever true and ever present as ONE. The Advaita Lord is true even when one is doubting the very presence of all inclusive Advaita Lord and paying more importance to events, which Gita teaches are always the effect of Gunas.

And by saying 'let us be practical about the history and the current situation' do we mean that teachings of Veda, Gita, Upanishads and our sages are not practical? When Veda says: Sarva Janah Sukhino Bhavantu, is it impractical? The truth is always Sarva Janah Sukhino Bhavantu and thus is Shiva-Good.

Unfortunately, I believe that the teaching of Sanatana Dharma is Sanatana, applicable under any circumstance.

Regards

Sarva Janah Sukhino Bhavantu
Om Namah Shivaya

MahaHrada
28 November 2008, 07:53 AM
It does not teach "--- go and indoctrinate others and make them perfect".

Jesus does exactly teach the above

For your information:

Matt 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…

John 3:36(Jesus speaking)
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Matt 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke 51-53
Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother.

I am purposefully only citing Jesus himself to prevent the baseless argument cropping up that his close disciples have somehow mysteriously misinterpreted the "humble teachings" of their master, and that the earlier ideas ascribed to the person Jesus differed from that of the later authors and disciples. They did not differ in approach they where faithful executors of the will of the master

sm78
28 November 2008, 10:16 AM
... some steeped in Advaita, as with the POV of XXX's ...

I would like to humbly point out that this point of view has nothing to do with believing or dis-believing in Advaita (as propunded by Sri Shankaracharya Bhagavatpada).

And if one goes further to accept srimadAcharya as a guide, such view point is crazy. Far from unity all his efforts were to point out hair-splitting difference between the prevalent systems and thus establisting supremacy of the srauta marga.If a nationalist really wants to look upto the line of (well known) spiritual teachers, after the end of the days of vasistha or vishamitra or vyas and others who revealed the srauta tradition to this world, srimadAcharya stands out to be one of the few to look upto. Not because of a philosophy alone, but his tremendous effort to preserve the dharma in a way that suited his age.

The attitude that all religions are same (at least in "essence") is another category of thought and people from diverse philosophical inclinations seemed to have believed in it since sometime. I am not even sure if advaitins make the majority of universalists.

Since I have written so many lines, let me go ahead and try to describe why so many people, esp spiritual people, find it difficult to believe that Koran or Bible or Christian or Muslims should be blamed. There might be many small reasons, but the primary reason I believe is this:-

If you really read Koran (a difficult task because of so much repitation and incoherency) carefully, read the rise of Muhammad - the story of his life and times and all that went on there, it will take away your sleep. I literally lost my sleep at the horrer of what I was reading and when I correlated the same with what is happening around us. I felt the world a very unkind place and love can be brutalized at will, by those want to do so, without reparcation.

The same realization may come while reading the horrers of Pol Pot and his famed "Killing Fields".

Coming to the point, there is no dearth of brutality, hatred and utterly inhuman aspects of this human civilization, and this ugly side of humanity can resurface anytime anywhere. World indeed sometimes see unusally brutal and unreal.

One way to survive this world is to take refuge in universalism because the very thought that half of the world believes that you are to be killed for worshipping an idol seems so un-imaginable to the comforts of being an idol-worshipper that he forces himself to believe that it is not true. When the truth is so harsh wrt our zones of comfort, we ignore the truth to remain in our comfort zones.

My another opinion is, such beliefs only indicates a failure to assimilate advaita and unreality of this world in one's own life, rather than the opposite.

Finally, to reiterate this is not aimed any person but just an attempt to give a meaning to world. Truth is beyond dogma, yet without a dogma or understanding we will slip into neurosis. So as long as the reality of this world haunts us, a dogma is necessary, for some, such a dogma is universalism. Unfortunaltely, consiquences of this is terrible as we are finding out.

sri rama jaya rama
jaya jaya rama

saidevo
28 November 2008, 10:39 AM
Namaste Atanuji.

I generally appreciate your unified, tolerant and advaitic view towards Islamic terrorism--or rather terrorism by some misguided Muslims, and the Christian Evangelism and Missionary--or rather the Christian religious proselytism by a large network of Christian churches. Still, some questions remain:

01. As you would have doubtless noticed, why is it always Hindus (that includes the westerners inclined towards Sanatana Dharma), here, elsewhere and perhaps everywhere, who discuss about the truths of the Christian or Islamic scriptures and try to understand the guNas of the Abrahamic religious followers as the basis for their activities? Why should we Hindus try to find a truth that the religious leaders themselves choose to deny in their scriptures?

Why does not a Christian or Muslim come forward to boldly criticize the violent activities of some of their followers and establish that their scriptures do not vouch for such acts? Surely, it does not require a scholar to do it because we Hindus who analyze the truths of our scriptures are not scholars (at least I am not) by any measure?

02. Whenever an act of terrorism is committed (I equate proselytism with terrorism because the aim is to destroy gods and cultures), how many Christians or Muslims speak against it? How many from the Muslim population, for instance, felt it totally inhuman and unjustified when a Hindu Sadvi was tortured by the ATS investigating the Malegaon blasts? Whereas many Hindus readily sympathize with their affected brethren and are even cynical, critical and hostile towards their own community? One (Hindu) journist in the NIE had the temerity to say that the investing agencies regularly torture their captives to bring out the truth, so why should special notice be taken against the Sadhvi's affidavit? Can a Muslim or Christian intellectual or journalist or politician say that criminals are generally hanged after the courts pronounce the final justice so it is not proper that Afzal Guru is still kept away from the gallows, though this is the truth?

03. Rather than we Hindus crying hoarse about the adharmic acts of Abrahamic religious followers, how much effective would it be if the Christian and Muslim commons take to deploring them? How decisive could be the influence if the USA, the Vatican and the Saudi Arabia step in to condemn and curb such adharmic acts and take up ways and means to stop them? Can we say that they are not doing it because of what and how they read in their religious scriptures? If India is a Hindu nation following its ancient tradition and is a superpower like the USA, can we not expect India to play a vital, truthful and effective role that is far more human, in such matters?

04. The point is why does not a Muslim or Christian find fault with some of the teachings of their scriptures that are either ambiguous or anachronistic? Whereas every Ram, Shyam and Radha finds fault with the teachings of VarNa Dharma in our scriptures? What or who is the Muslim or Christian common is afraid of in saying that some teachings of their scritpures are irrelevant to our times if not totally wrong?

05. Thus Hindus are generally vigilant of some of the teachings of their scriptures that are likely to be misinterpreted and the followers of Abrahamic religions are generally indiffernt to them or tolerant to the people who indulge in violence quoting them. Does this mean that the guNas are generally better balanced in a Hindu than in a Christian or Muslim? After all a human is a human whatever his/her religion is, so he/she can indulge in acts of adharma bordering on violence irrespective of the religion he/she belongs to.

06. Bharat in her hoary history has never invaded another country or done violence to other cultures even when they sought refuge in her lap. Countries ruled by the Abrhamic religions have displayed every sort of violence as the history shows. Why is this disparity if the human nature and faculties are potentially the same everywhere in the world? Certainly it has much to do with the highly doctrinal scriptures of these religions.

07. You know about the abysmal depths to which the Indian politicians have sunk our defensive and security forces, who represent the KShatrias. Only the people can change this state in India, so it should be the aim of us people who can express things to educate and mobilize strong public opinion on nationalism and our ancient Hindu tradition. India certainly needs a majority Hindu government with repeated mandate to set things right and restore our ancient glory. Until such time, we Hindus have to tolerate the wicked and inhuman acts of our secular authorities distorting our history, religion and culture--calling Ramakrishna Paramahansa a lunatic or Aurobindo a revolutionary.

08. "Sarva Janah Sukhino Bhavantu"--Is there a similar teaching in the Abrahamic scriptures which is equivalent to this one in purport and import? And why is that there are far less number of sages (if not hardly any at all) in those religions today than we find in Hinduism who are truly realized? Why aren't the Sufism and Freemason branches of those religions as acitive today as they used to be?

09. Perhaps the majority of Hindus in India perceive the teaching of the VarNa Dharma and the caste system based on it, however essential it is, as an irrelevant and anachronistic one. This perception even overshadows the teachingss of one world one family and one god in many gods. In the same way, it is a fact that the monopolistic and exclusivistic teachings of the Abrahamic scriptures loom large to their followers and motive them to violent and inhuman acts.

atanu
28 November 2008, 01:42 PM
Namaste Atanuji.

I generally appreciate your unified, tolerant and advaitic view towards Islamic terrorism--or rather terrorism by some misguided Muslims, and the Christian Evangelism and Missionary--or rather the Christian religious proselytism by a large network of Christian churches. Still, some questions remain:

01. As you would have doubtless noticed, why is it always Hindus (that includes the westerners inclined towards Sanatana Dharma), here, elsewhere and perhaps everywhere, who discuss about the truths of the Christian or Islamic scriptures and try to understand the guNas of the Abrahamic religious followers as the basis for their activities? Why should we Hindus try to find a truth that the religious leaders themselves choose to deny in their scriptures?

Why does not a Christian or Muslim come forward to boldly criticize the violent activities of some of their followers and establish that their scriptures do not vouch for such acts? Surely, it does not require a scholar to do it because we Hindus who analyze the truths of our scriptures are not scholars (at least I am not) by any measure?

02. Whenever an act of terrorism is committed (I equate proselytism with terrorism because the aim is to destroy gods and cultures), how many Christians or Muslims speak against it? How many from the Muslim population, for instance, felt it totally inhuman and unjustified when a Hindu Sadvi was tortured by the ATS investigating the Malegaon blasts? Whereas many Hindus readily sympathize with their affected brethren and are even cynical, critical and hostile towards their own community? One (Hindu) journist in the NIE had the temerity to say that the investing agencies regularly torture their captives to bring out the truth, so why should special notice be taken against the Sadhvi's affidavit? Can a Muslim or Christian intellectual or journalist or politician say that criminals are generally hanged after the courts pronounce the final justice so it is not proper that Afzal Guru is still kept away from the gallows, though this is the truth?

03. Rather than we Hindus crying hoarse about the adharmic acts of Abrahamic religious followers, how much effective would it be if the Christian and Muslim commons take to deploring them? How decisive could be the influence if the USA, the Vatican and the Saudi Arabia step in to condemn and curb such adharmic acts and take up ways and means to stop them? Can we say that they are not doing it because of what and how they read in their religious scriptures? If India is a Hindu nation following its ancient tradition and is a superpower like the USA, can we not expect India to play a vital, truthful and effective role that is far more human, in such matters?

04. The point is why does not a Muslim or Christian find fault with some of the teachings of their scriptures that are either ambiguous or anachronistic? Whereas every Ram, Shyam and Radha finds fault with the teachings of VarNa Dharma in our scriptures? What or who is the Muslim or Christian common is afraid of in saying that some teachings of their scritpures are irrelevant to our times if not totally wrong?

05. Thus Hindus are generally vigilant of some of the teachings of their scriptures that are likely to be misinterpreted and the followers of Abrahamic religions are generally indiffernt to them or tolerant to the people who indulge in violence quoting them. Does this mean that the guNas are generally better balanced in a Hindu than in a Christian or Muslim? After all a human is a human whatever his/her religion is, so he/she can indulge in acts of adharma bordering on violence irrespective of the religion he/she belongs to.

06. Bharat in her hoary history has never invaded another country or done violence to other cultures even when they sought refuge in her lap. Countries ruled by the Abrhamic religions have displayed every sort of violence as the history shows. Why is this disparity if the human nature and faculties are potentially the same everywhere in the world? Certainly it has much to do with the highly doctrinal scriptures of these religions.

07. You know about the abysmal depths to which the Indian politicians have sunk our defensive and security forces, who represent the KShatrias. Only the people can change this state in India, so it should be the aim of us people who can express things to educate and mobilize strong public opinion on nationalism and our ancient Hindu tradition. India certainly needs a majority Hindu government with repeated mandate to set things right and restore our ancient glory. Until such time, we Hindus have to tolerate the wicked and inhuman acts of our secular authorities distorting our history, religion and culture--calling Ramakrishna Paramahansa a lunatic or Aurobindo a revolutionary.

08. "Sarva Janah Sukhino Bhavantu"--Is there a similar teaching in the Abrahamic scriptures which is equivalent to this one in purport and import? And why is that there are far less number of sages (if not hardly any at all) in those religions today than we find in Hinduism who are truly realized? Why aren't the Sufism and Freemason branches of those religions as acitive today as they used to be?

09. Perhaps the majority of Hindus in India perceive the teaching of the VarNa Dharma and the caste system based on it, however essential it is, as an irrelevant and anachronistic one. This perception even overshadows the teachingss of one world one family and one god in many gods. In the same way, it is a fact that the monopolistic and exclusivistic teachings of the Abrahamic scriptures loom large to their followers and motive them to violent and inhuman acts.

Namaskar Saidevoji,

This may not be the right time to discuss and debate since it is time for mourning. I will just make one note.

VarNa Dharma is not irrelevant and it describes the Universe -- of splendorous colors of one Lord. However, often the one source is overlooked. As mentioned earlier, Shudra cannot be untouchable, since Shudra represents Lord's feet. The question "01. -----why is it always Hindus (that includes the westerners inclined towards Sanatana Dharma), here, elsewhere and perhaps everywhere, who discuss about the truths of the Christian or Islamic scriptures ----" is only partly correct and also contains the answer in itself. Sarva Janah Sukhino Bhavantu only will make here, elsewhere and perhaps everywhere perfect and win all battles, since Purusha, the person, is one only. The differences must be understood as the properties of places; of here and there (as percieved by the seer from here or from there). All fights are because of holding on rigidly to the perceptions from the perspective of 'here' as only correct.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

Tyrannos
28 November 2008, 10:00 PM
Hail!!!


Each one of us might have a differing POV, some steeped in Advaita, as with the POV of Atanu's, but I think it is imperative for every Hindu to know the dark side of the Abrahamic religions and be critical about it, because only then we can fully appreciate the havoc they are currently bringing in on the Hindu religion.

Tyrannos and MahaHrada have done a great job in highlighting the negative, violent and inhuman activities in the history of the Abrahamic religions. Since HDF is also a repository of documents, I would request them to compile in brief all points on what they have begun.

There will be no religion if there are no followers. In this sense, which is practical, it is the followers who make up the religions more than the scriptures do.

Therefore, in the interest of protecting the Hindus and subsisting them in Hinduism, it is necessary that we know the history of Abrahamic religions, and how they have served vested interests to destory humanity
Thanks for your encouragement and support!!!

About violence and war:

"Whenever there is a withering of the Dharma and an uprising of adharma on all sides, then I manifest Myself.
For the salvation of the righteous and the destruction of such as do acts of injustice , for the firm establishing of the Dharma, I come to birth, age after age".
Bhagavad Gita

"Lord Kalki, the Lord of the universe, will mount His swift horse Devadatta and, sword in hand, travel over the earth exhibiting His eight mystic opulences and eight special qualities of Godhead. Displaying His unequaled effulgence and riding with great speed, He will kill by the millions those thieves who have dared dress as kings." Srimad Bhagavatam

"Thereafter, at the end of Kali-yuga, when there exist no topics on the subject of God, even at the residences of saints and respected gentlemen of the three higher castes, and when the power of government is transferred to the hands of ministers elected from the lowborn sudra class or those less than them, and when nothing is known of the techniques of sacrifice, even by word, at that time the Lord will appear as the Supreme Chastiser." Srimad Bhagavatam

"When the practices taught by the Vedas and the institutes of Law,shall nearly have ceased, and the close of the Kali age shall be nigh, a portion of that Divine Being who exists of his own spiritual nature, in the character of Brahma, and who is the beginning and the end, and who comprehends all things shall descend upon the earth.
He will be born as Kalki in the family of an eminent brahmin, of Sambhala village, endowed with the eight superhuman faculties. By his irresistible might, He will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity.He will then reestablish righteousness upon earth".Vishnu Purana

"Dharma said to Kalki: Right now, infidels like Saka, Kamboja, Sabara etc. are under the control of kali and that mighty kali has defeated me taking advantage of the influence of the time. The righteous men are being tortured and consigned to the flames. That's why I have come for Your protection."
Kalki Purana

From these quotations it is evident that for the Sanatana Dharma the war against the followers of adharma is not senseless violence.
In the Bhagavad-Gita Krishna refers to the war about to take place as 'Dharma Yuddha', meaning a righteous war for the purpose of Dharma.
In the Bhagavat Gita Krishna exhorts Arjuna to fight... : this is not to matter of violence but to matter of Dharma. Peace is not the supreme goal, the supreme goal is the Dharma.
The Brahmins "killed" the unjust King Vena: this is not a matter of violence but a matter of Dharma.
Besides I had already written that the sacred texts say that it needs to cut the tongue to those people who speak badly of Shiva: this is not a matter of violence but a matter of Dharma.
The Gods they fight incessant and continuous wars against the asuras: this is not a matter of violence but a matter of Dharma.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Ashta-Matrika.jpg

http://www.mailerindia.com/devata/durga1.jpg

http://blogs.epicindia.com/bhagavatam/images/narasimha2.jpg




All the civilizations have made wars and conquered other people but the attitude of the abrahamic religious followers it is completely different from that of the followers of the Dharma:
The Ancient Romans have conquered other people and they have created the Roman Empire, but they have not imposed their religion, they have not exterminated whole populations; they have respected the other cultures...when they have become christians, all is changed...
The Greeks and the Macedonians, driven by Alexander ther Great, have created the Hellenistic Kingdoms, but they have not imposed their religion, they have not exterminated whole populations; they have respected the other cultures.
The Christians:
in Europe they have exterminated all the not-christians up to become the only cult;
in america of the north above all the Protestant Christians have exterminated the native population of the Indians of America...the survivors now live in the reserves... ;
in central and southern america the catholic christians have imposed their cult with such a violence that the native population today is only christian...;
The islamic ones:
From Morocco to Egypt, in the Middle East, in Turkey, in Iraq and in Iran they have not only imposed their cult with violence but they have cancelled the native populations: Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Libians, Phoenician, etc.etc.: these populations don't exist anymore, they have disappeared...now these countries are inhabited only with populations that in 300dc they lived only in arabia... ;
It would also need to speak about Africa, Indonesia, and about the coflittis between Hinduists and Buddhists... ;
This is only a brief summary, but I think that it would be better to deepen these events...the Past and the Memory are fundamental...

And finally an example of Egyptian religious text that shows the bond of this ancient religion with the Dharma:
A note: Ra is the God of the Sun and the Creator; Maat is the Goddess of Eternal Law...Sanatana Dharma...

"O Ra, Lord of Maat
who lives by Maat
who rejoices in Maat
who is complete because of Maat
who persists because of Maat
who is praised by Maat
who is powerful through Maat
who rules through Maat
who is crowned by Maat
who ascends in Maat
who descends in Maat
who nourishes on Maat
who is joined with Maat
O Ra, eternal in deed, perfect in plans
righteous in heart, who establishes Maat
in everything which he creates..."

Tyrannos

atanu
28 November 2008, 11:21 PM
Hello Tyrannos,


Hail!!!
Thanks for your encouragement and support!!!


:). I must feel good about the adulation that you are recieving. An Italian young man interpreting Hindu scripture and spreading it across. I only hope that you are hailing God and not hailing the Hitlerian.



"Whenever there is a withering of the Dharma and an uprising of adharma on all sides, then I manifest Myself. Bhagavad Gita


Let us remember the above in fullness.



The Ancient Romans have conquered other people and they have created the Roman Empire, but they have not imposed their religion, they have not exterminated whole populations; they have respected the other cultures...when they have become christians, all is changed...

Tyrannos

Why don't you remember that the Roman kings only embraced christianity and furthered their empires. You cannot blame christianity and forget those Romans who embraced it for some purpose.

One cannot blame God for the acts of a Godman who furthers his own interest in the name of God. Do not put the Cart before the horse. It is the idea of individual human existence as separate from God that is the EVIL everywhere. It is greed, it is lust, it is anger, it is hatred.

And the whole idea of yours furthers the notion that God is not omnipotent. No. God has given one scripture - the Word "I am" or "OM" to all. Different Guna mixtures have absorbed differently (Da-Da-Da teaching) .


Thereafter, at the end of Kali-yuga, when there exist no topics on the subject of God, even at the residences of saints and respected gentlemen of the three higher castes, and when the power of government is transferred to the hands of ministers elected from the lowborn sudra class or those less than them, and when nothing is known of the techniques of sacrifice, even by word, at that time the Lord will appear as the Supreme Chastiser." Srimad Bhagavatam

What do you mean by including above verses? What is your intention? To divide the society or to unite? Only those who have Sattwik minds have the capability to understand the scripture without colouring it in adverse ways.

When the society begins to give more importance to the fiery rhetorics and actions of Khatriya and money making tendencies of Vaishya over the Sattwik teachings of the Brahmins (not the caste but the teachers of sattwik wisdom), the Shudra rises and that indicates that the cycle is nearing completion and God's intervention is due.


Khatriyas (who are the rulers) must be guided by the wisdom of Brahmins (who are the knowers of Brahman), else ------:o Daksha Yagna. Prajapati Daksha ignored the advice of sage Dhadhichi and neglected to include the outcaste in his yagna. He refused to sacrifice to the outcaste. The result is known.



By his irresistible might, He will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity.He will then reestablish righteousness upon earth".Vishnu Purana


Yes. All those who are devoted to inequities will face destruction. Gita does say that "Self slays those who are disrespectful of the Self".

Self is SamAn. Anything that endeavours to show it as broken or uneven breaks down. Self remains the Self.

Sanatana Dharma first teaches about One Purusha/ONE atman and not the way you are teaching. It is unfortunate that another form of imperialism must be endured -- a Roman interpreting Sanatana Dharma and enjoying the applause.:)

Every religion first and foremost teaches about ONE GOD, who has been named as OM-I AM and who is the Good (Shivo) and all pervasive (Vishnu). These as the essentialty of God is acceptable to every spiritual man. What we see today is the battle of spiritualists (who are guided by Brahman alone but known under different names) versus the materialists who know nothing about Brahman (most cloaked as religious) and not a battle between true spiritualists of different denominations.

Yes, this is the battle between those who see differences everywhere, in order to individually benefit and those who see one SELF and pray for Sarva Janah Sukhinu Bhavantu. In this battle, spiritualists who hold up Divine aspects of goodness, sharing, equality, remembrance of one non dual Lord seemingly are weak and are defeated again and again but God promises that Devas will win.

By his irresistible might, He will destroy all the barbarians and thieves, and all whose minds are devoted to iniquity.


Om Namah Shivaya

Tyrannos
29 November 2008, 07:06 AM
Hail!!!


An Italian young man interpreting Hindu scripture
I have only quoted ...the sacred texts say every thing, there is no need of interpretations...
I have said only that from those quotations it is evident that for the Sanatana Dharma the war against the followers of adharma is not senseless violence: or the war among the Gods and the asuras is senseless violence? and the Brahamins have killed Vena for senseless violence?


only hope that you are hailing God and not hailing the Hitlerian.
aveo(haveo) -ere [to be well]; found only in imperat. and infin.; 'ave' , [hail! or farewell!]
It's a Latin phrase, used by the Romans as a salutation and greeting, meaning 'hail'. It is the singular imperative form of the verb avēre, which meant "to be well"; thus, one could translate it literally as "be well!" or "farewell!"


the Roman kings only embraced christianity
The Roman Kings not embraced christianity: the Roman Kings are Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Tarquinius Priscus, Servius Tullius and Tarquinius Superbus; 753-509bc
When Constantine became the sole Roman Emperor in 324ad, christianity became the leading religion of the empire: the late Emperors embraced christianity, not the Roman Kings...


One cannot blame God for the acts of a Godman who furthers his own interest in the name of God.
Deuteronomy 17:3-7: "...If anyone hath gone and served other Gods, and worshipped them, either the Sun, or Moon, or any of the Host of Heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
This is not to blame?


And the whole idea of yours furthers the notion that God is not omnipotent.
I have never said this...


Thereafter, at the end of Kali-yuga, when there exist no topics on the subject of God, even at the residences of saints and respected gentlemen of the three higher castes, and when the power of government is transferred to the hands of ministers elected from the lowborn sudra class or those less than them, and when nothing is known of the techniques of sacrifice, even by word, at that time the Lord will appear as the Supreme Chastiser." Srimad Bhagavatam

What do you mean by including above verses? What is your intention? To divide the society or to unite?

My intention is simply remember:the Lord will appear as the Supreme Chastiser.


Daksha Yagna. Prajapati Daksha ignored the advice of sage Dhadhichi and neglected to include the outcaste in his yagna. He refused to sacrifice to the outcaste. The result is known.
the outcaste???????????
"the Rishi Dadhichi became filled with grief and wrath, and said, 'This is neither a Sacrifice nor a meritorious rite of religion, since Rudra is not adored in it' "Mahabharata.
"Dadhichi said, 'This seems to be the counsel of all that are here, viz., that Maheswara should not be invited. As, however, I do not behold any god that can be said to be superior to him. I am sure that this proposed Sacrifice of Daksha will certainly be overtaken by destruction.' " Mahabharata.



Sanatana Dharma first teaches about One Purusha/ONE atman
Sanatana Dharma means Eternal Law.

"Zeus is the first. Zeus the thunderer, is the last.
Zeus is the head. Zeus is the middle, and by Zeus all things were fabricated.
Zeus is male, Immortal Zeus is female.
Zeus is the foundation of the earth and of the starry heaven.
Zeus is the breath of all things. Zeus is the rushing of indefatigable fire.
Zeus is the root of the sea: He is the Sun and Moon.
Zeus is the king; He is the author of universal life;
One Power, one Master, the mighty prince of all things:
One kingly frame, in which this universe revolves,
Fire and water, earth and ether, night and day,
And Metis (Counsel) the primeval father, and all-delightful Eros (Love).
All these things are United in the vast body of Zeus.
Would you behold his head and his fair face,
It is the resplendent heaven, round which his golden locks
Of glittering stars are beautifully exalted in the air.
On each side are the two golden taurine horns,
The risings and settings, the tracks of the celestial gods;
His eyes the sun and the Opposing moon;
His unfallacious Mind the royal incorruptible Ether."


Tyrannos

Infinite Regress
29 November 2008, 07:36 AM
Atanu,

I somewhat agree with you on this matter, but am confused by your choice of words. On the one hand, you say advaita is all and take the pains to explain even terrorism in terms of gunas (to keep advaita intact), but then again, you refer to one of the members by his nationality, clearly disregarding advaita? Isn't that contradictory?

atanu
29 November 2008, 08:28 AM
Namaste Friends,

As Shri Yajvan reminds us again and again that the Gods do talk in mysterious terms. I was perplexed with what Shri Maharada had posted. Not knowing the Bible fully, I went through a single book. The following are few excerpts (including the verse which Shri Maharadha cited).


Luke

1:51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.

Luke 6
Love for Enemies

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, ------31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. -----

35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. -----"

39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
----
Luke 12

Not Peace but Division

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Interpreting the Times

54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

-------------------------

Well. Like Indra-Rudra who scatters Vritta, Lord here is said to scatter the proud. Then Jesus goes ahead to teach his devotees to love enemies, and not to judge others. He specifically asks "Can a blind man lead a blind man?"

He then gives a sign of the time and indicates that he himself is that time and has an unpleasant job at his hand, similar as Shri Krishna proclaiming "Kalosmi". Kala -- the death has the most unpleasant job.

But the Godly stroke comes as:

Why don't you judge for yourself what is right? And further advises:

"Try hard to be reconciled to your adversary on the way to the magistrate".

------------------------------

To summarise:

What we have to judge?
Who is the magistrate before whom we should reach after solving our divisive problems with our adversaries?---------------------------------

Just Beautiful.


Om Namah Shivaya. Yes. "Zeus is the first. Zeus the thunderer, is the last" I agree with Tyrannos because Zeus, Dayus, Rudra, Shivaya, are all names of the father Heaven.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
29 November 2008, 08:41 AM
Atanu,

I somewhat agree with you on this matter, but am confused by your choice of words. On the one hand, you say advaita is all and take the pains to explain even terrorism in terms of gunas (to keep advaita intact), but then again, you refer to one of the members by his nationality, clearly disregarding advaita? Isn't that contradictory?

Yes. I am wrong there with my choice of words, definitely due to unripe knowledge and also because of sitting in front of TV fuming and without meditating for sometime now. As Jesus has also taught that "Can a blind man lead a blind man? " I am sorry for any hard feeling.

Yet varna differences are natural. Advaitin has the greatest ease to accept that, unlike the materialist Communists or materialist Socialists. I believe (may be wrongly) that like a pious soul gets birth in a pious family amongst the Veda knowers (taught in Gita), a soul who has obtained a birth in a Brahmin family of India is more ripe to comprehend the Guna free Brahman than a westerner. You may call that Racist. I do not mind because I know that I am not Guna free, which the Advaita Lord who is True is. Moreover most accomplished mystics are indeed from Bharata.

But, irrespective of all Gunas, the Advaita Lord is True -- Now and for everyone and for everyplace.

Om

Tyrannos
29 November 2008, 10:46 AM
Just Beautiful.

Om Namah Shivaya. Yes. "Zeus is the first. Zeus the thunderer, is the last" I agree with Tyrannos because Zeus, Dayus, Rudra, Shivaya, are all names of the father Heaven.

Om Namah Shivaya

http://www.summagallicana.it/lessico/z/Zeus%20Giove%20Napoli.bmp

http://stoa.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/zeus.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/images/gal_grk_oly_temple.jpg
Reconstruction of the Temple of Zeus at Olympia





http://z.about.com/d/archaeology/1/0/I/B/Temple_of_Zeus.JPG
the remains of the temple of Zeus at Olympia...


Tyrannos

atanu
29 November 2008, 12:59 PM
Namaste Tyrrano,


Hail!!!
I have only quoted ...the sacred texts say every thing, there is no need of interpretations...

If that were so then there would not be so many views.


I have said only that from those quotations it is evident that for the Sanatana Dharma the war against the followers of adharma is not senseless violence:

Again, Dharma-adharma discrimination is time and place specific.


The Roman Kings not embraced christianity: the Roman Kings are Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Tarquinius Priscus, Servius Tullius and Tarquinius Superbus; 753-509bc
When Constantine became the sole Roman Emperor in 324ad, christianity became the leading religion of the empire: the late Emperors embraced christianity, not the Roman Kings...

Most curious. The Wiki says as below:


Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus[2] (27 February ca. 272[1] – 22 May 337), commonly known as Constantine I, Constantine the Great, or Saint Constantine (among Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic Christians), was Roman Emperor from 306, and the undisputed holder of that office from 324 to his death. Best known for being the first Christian Roman Emperor, Constantine reversed the persecutions of his predecessor, Diocletian, and issued (with his co-emperor Licinius) the Edict of Milan in 313, which proclaimed religious toleration throughout the empire.The simple point was that Romans embraced christianity. You cannot blame Jesus for that.



the outcaste???????????
"the Rishi Dadhichi became filled with grief and wrath, and said, 'This is neither a Sacrifice nor a meritorious rite of religion, since Rudra is not adored in it' "Mahabharata.
"Dadhichi said, 'This seems to be the counsel of all that are here, viz., that Maheswara should not be invited. As, however, I do not behold any god that can be said to be superior to him. I am sure that this proposed Sacrifice of Daksha will certainly be overtaken by destruction.' " Mahabharata.


Yes, the outcaste. Mahesvara, was not accepted as entitled to sacrifice because He manifests as an outcaste, though He is beyond name, form, and all mental speculation. He simply pierced the sacrifice and made it unfit. Thereafter Gods devised Svistakrit sacrifice. All sacrifices finally go to Svistakrit, Shiva.

Om Namah Shivaya

MahaHrada
30 November 2008, 07:49 AM
a soul who has obtained a birth in a Brahmin family of India is more ripe to comprehend the Guna free Brahman than a westerner.

Being a Brahmin is indeed a thing that is lost much easier and faster than it is gainend.

atanu
30 November 2008, 08:14 AM
Namaste MahaHrada,


Being a Brahmin is indeed a thing that is lost much easier and faster than it is gainend.

Accepted.

Om

saidevo
30 November 2008, 09:43 AM
I believe (may be wrongly) that like a pious soul gets birth in a pious family amongst the Veda knowers (taught in Gita), a soul who has obtained a birth in a Brahmin family of India is more ripe to comprehend the Guna free Brahman than a westerner. You may call that Racist. I do not mind because I know that I am not Guna free, which the Advaita Lord who is True is. Moreover most accomplished mystics are indeed from Bharata.


With all due regards to the sincere endeavours of the foreigners, I have no hesitation in agreeing with this point of Atanu: yes, Brahmins and Hindu sages not only study, comprehend and interpret Vedas far more correctly than a foreigner but also recite the mantras with the precise pronunciation. I have heard the distinct slurring accent of the Western languages in the pronunciation of Sanskrit syllables in the talks of accomplished Western Acharyas. Even among the Indian Hindus, people from other VarNas in a state like Tamilnadu read Sanskrit with faulty pronunciation, mainly because of the vernacularization of the Sanskrit words in their languages, whereas people speak Hindu and related languages have a far better pronunciation of Sanskrit.

Kali Yuga has a fifth varNa, the sAmAnyas, so mlechhas fall under this varNa. As Atanu says, PuruSha is one, comprising entire mankind. In the same way, only Sanatana Dharma was the earliest religion prevailing all over the world, so the other religions are all derived from it; they differ in their teachings to the extent their prophets were realized in the revelations given to them.

As Kanchi Paramacharya says, there should be unity, not uniformity of religions.

devotee
30 November 2008, 10:03 AM
Namaste Saideoji,

To some extent what you say is true but the same cannot be taken as a rule. There may be many foreigners who may be more knowledgable than many Indians on Hindu scriptures & they may be more pious than a Brahman by caste born in India.

I feel very strongly on the use of word, "Malechha" which is more often used in derogatory tone. With all due respect to everyone on this forum, I would like to request that such words are better avoided.

The same supreme consciousnes is in all being in same density. We all are manifestation of the same supreme Consciosness. If I am not able to see equally in all beings & everywhere That same supreme consciousness ... my knowledge of scriptures is not more valuable than a recorded tape.

I am sure you will agree with me.

Regards,

OM

MahaHrada
30 November 2008, 10:06 AM
IMO, this is exactly the half baked idea of Shaivism through the pens of a westerner without taking sambhvopAya and anupAya into account.

I especially remember this nice quote from atanu about a quote from an article from a most intimate disciple and friend of swami lakshman joo, John Hughes who studied for decades with his Guru , from an earlier thread

I think this attitude towards peoples ideas only because they are foreigner is simply disgusting. Whether he is factual right or not doesn´t matter it is very immature to use racism to devaluate an idea especially when it has been received via Guru Shisya Parampara going back to Svacchanda Bhairava. I doubt you understand what these Sanskrit terms imply, and a dictionary will not help you much, but i don´t give up hope that easily. You are all of course free to think what you will.

atanu
30 November 2008, 12:40 PM
Mleccha is noun for non-Aryan people. It is not the subject of Purusha Suktam.

Namaste Mahahrada,


I especially remember this nice quote from atanu about a quote from an article from a most intimate disciple and friend of swami lakshman joo, John Hughes who studied for decades with his Guru , from an earlier thread

So it is that. You go ahead and check up. The comments could not have been for John Hughes, it could have been for your particular interpretation though. I respect and envy any non-Indian who has been attracted by Shiva. I have written and quoted maximum from western authors in this forum. I envy such people for the simple fact that they are evidently chosen.

It has already been said that Purusha is ONE. Vedic verse on Purusha on which we were discussing, does not mention Mleccha at all. Neither did I mention Mleccha. If you still wish to harbour some mis-conception, carry on happily.

I gently remind you that you only have reminded us of how horrible Christians and Muslims have been through ages. I agree, since most dictators and mass murderers of the world are from the regions where these religions have grown. Whereas, you cannot name a single dictator with murderous instincts from India. Since, in these regions, masters have taught: All that we see is covered by Lord. Do not covet.

Marauders that have looted India time and again have done so because of their covetousness only -- so much opposite of what has been taught to us in Isha Upanishad. It is not un-natural that we feel aggrieved.

Though Jesus has also taught similar non-covetousness, yet we see great acquisitive tendencies persisting. World Wars have been fought on these issues. There have been no end of wars. Though Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have a common Abraham-Ibrahim origin, still they have fought. But in Europe and America people have softened considerably after the Worls Wars. I expect similar situation for West Asia after they self destroy through animosity.

Keeping these facts, I said that these tendencies preceeded Jesus or Mohammad. The way Jesus was murdered is a testimony. I ascribe these to tendencies and not to Jesus or Mohammed. I am not forcing you to accept my views. Another secular reason may be that these are relatively new civilizations compared to cradle of civilization, India, dating back from Mohenjodaro times.

For that you call me racist. I do not have any problem with that. In fact I thanked God that through you He made me read Luke.

I still say that westerners do have more of Rajasic tendencies, often attributable to the kind of foods consumed. The Rajasic taint makes them do great jobs and yet remain discontented. Similarly, during extreme sweltry heat of India, the Tamas does raise its head, making Indians lethargic.

I find it a bit surprising that you feel insulted and bristle with anger at these statements of facts. In our way, we simply state disagreement.

I request you to understand that there is no malice. I request you to understand that I maintain that Shiva is Atman in all, whether Mlechha or not.

Finally, I request you to throw away any misgivings since I wish to see you happy, for sake of my happiness.


Om

PS: It is known that if one wanted to kill a Shiva devotee one should wear a mark of Shiva and attack the devotee. Shiva devotees know the play of Shiva well, so they do not hold any grudges. They do not bring up old matter. They love.

yajvan
30 November 2008, 02:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste


Being a Brahmin is indeed a thing that is lost much easier and faster than it is gainend.


Chāndogya Upaniṣad ( 4.4.1)

Satyakāma (one that desires satya सत्य - truth) decides it's time to approach a guru for more knowledge and advance his learning.

Before doing so he will be asked about his lineage. To this he goes to his mother, Jabālā¹, to find out the particulars of his birth. Jabālā says Satyakāma, I do not know who you father is. As a maid servant (not dasi) I went from house to house. Hence I do not know your gotra (lineage), nor your correct father. Hence when you announce yourself the best you can say is you are Satyakāma Jabālā .

Satyakāma remains innocent about it, as did his mother with her straightforward answer to him. With his intention, he approaches the gurukulam and Gautama, the guru of the ashram and says, Sir, I wish to live as brahmacārin under you.

Obviously, Gautama asks of his lineage. Satykāma is straightforward and says he does not know and explains his mother's maid servant conditions. He finishes by saying, Revered Sir, can I , Satyakāma Jābāla, being such, may I approach you as a śiṣya (a student)?

Gautama says, none other then a brāhmaṇa can say as you have. You did not deviate from the truth. Bring the samit (or the fuel) for the yajña.

As I see it birth is one thing, actions and intent are another.


words

Jabālā जबाला or ja + bālā: ja is born from + bālā a young woman
Gautama गौतम - is the ṛṣi beloninging to the family of gotama, the family (gotra) of aṅgiras. Perhaps this Gautama is Akṣapāda, the author of Nyāyasūtra, I am uncertain about this.

amra
30 November 2008, 03:06 PM
I find it amusing that Mahahrada accuses others of racism, yet slanders the name of Jesus in an earlier post. What a terrible karma it is to insult those sent down from above for the betterment of humanity. Jesus did not write the bible, things are said which are apt for certain times. To offend others religious feeling is beyond all morality, Jesus as an ishta dev for Christians has provided a means for furnishing them with real love for humanity.

Please read about the eastern orthodox church which took on many aspects of pagan ritualism but covered it in the guise of christian terminology, especially christian neoplatonists like Origen. To wage an external war whether against physical or ideological enemies will end in destruction, the war of ideas will lead to a destruction of man intellectual capability, all the high pagan sciences tyrannos loves will be buried by the very movement which seeks to ressurect them.

Let us stop bickering and rebuild the ancient knowledge from the remanents of the towering monuments of the past, and not submit to the literalism of the ressurection of what is dead, whether the past or the physical body.

Tyrannos
30 November 2008, 11:05 PM
As I see it birth is one thing, actions and intent are another.
This is a Great Truth!!!

Hail!!!
In concern to the "barbarians" it is to remember that the human races have a common origin...:
"Priyavrata having divided the earth into seven continents, gave them respectively to his other seven sons . To Agnídhra he gave Jambu-dwípa; to Medhatithi he gave Plaksha-dwípa: he installed Vapushmat in the sovereignty over the Dwípa of Sálmali; and made Jyotishmat king of Kuśa-dwípa: he appointed Dyutimat to rule over Krauncha-dwípa; Bhavya to reign over Sáka-dwípa; and Savala he nominated the monarch of the Dwípa of Pushkara".Vishnu Purana
And then I have already written that in the Sacred Texts it is said that Narada Muni was born in Plaksha Dvipa, that according to the researchers it corresponds to the Mediterraneans countries..


Again, Dharma-adharma discrimination is time and place specific.
:headscratch: Are you saying that the Dharma is relative???
There is less adherence to the Dharma from the men on the Earth in base to the Time, but the Dharma is Eternal. Dharma is a Divinity, and the Divinities are not relative....this remembers me a thinker that said" the man is measure of all the things..." :eek:
For instance, the Sacred Texts testify that the system of the Castes has existed all over the World once (and the Ancient World remembers this...): in Plaksha Dvipa "The castes are called Áryaka, Kuru, Vivása, and Bháví, corresponding severally with Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaiśya, and Śúdra".Vishnu Purana
...this has been established from the Gods...the Law is not relative...it is Eternal...


Yes, the outcaste. Mahesvara, was not accepted as entitled to sacrifice because He manifests as an outcaste

...Strange, I have read that MahaDeva was not accepted because He is a kapali [wearer of human-skull]...
And the Gods they are not beyond the Castes?


which took on many aspects of pagan... but covered it in the guise of christian
To this point I think that another warning for the Hindu Dharma is opportune, after having spoken of the persecutions and of the destructions of the Temples of the Gods, and after having remembered that the cristians exterminated all those people who followed the Ancient Religions or they converted them to the cristianity...everybody...
It would also need to remember that the cristians also destroyed the Sacred Texts and the literary texts of the not-cristian Antiquity ...few is saved...but of this matter I will speak another time, as also of the destruction of the Statues of Cult of the Gods...

It now needs to say something in concern to the fact that the christians in the greatest part of the cases, almost systematically (this is an archaeological law...), after having shaved to the ground a Temple they have built in the same place a church; a similar case has happened to India: the famous temple of Rama at Ayodhya ...but I think that this is not the only one...

Initially the destruction of the Temples of the Gods had as goal to seal the victory of the new religion; the fathers of the church saw in the cult of the Gods the work of Satan (the Arch-Enemy of the abrahamitic religions...I have already said something of the bonds among Satan-Serapis-Osiris-Hades-Yama-Dharma...), the Gods were considered to bring the humanity in the sin...
But once disappeared the fear of the Gods and of the Sacred Statues of the Gods, the christians, strong of the law of theodosios II("all have to destroy the Temples and Sanctuaries of the Gods, if Temples still remains, and puts the christian emblem of the cross; who doesn't comply to such law is punished with the death"), they began to transform the Temples of the Gods in christian churches...the trasformation of the Temples in churches was avoided at the beginning, at least until the fifth century, probably because the christian community felt too the weight of previous worship of the Gods and to feel at ease in that type of buildings believed inhabited by "evil spirits".
Only when christianity was strong and only when it was away the memory of the old Religion so adverse, they began to use for churches the old destroyed Temples.

Some examples in Rome:

Transformation of the Pantheon (Temple of all Gods) in the building of christian worship: The action of transformation, promoted by Pope Boniface IV and authorized by the emperor Foca, took a symbolic role around which it built the anniversary of the cristian liturgical celebration of "All Saints". The episode was included as triumph on Devils driven from the Temple and the triumph of the saints, where once the devotion was officiated in honor of the Gods; but I say "momentary defeat of the Gods and momentary victory of the asuras" (the Sacred Texts often talk about these events : Think about the story of Taraka ...)

Building of a church where the twin Temples of Goddess Fortuna (Lakshmi) and Mater Matuta (the Dawn Goddess, Ushas)had been destroyed.

Building of a church on the site of the Temple of Isis (I hope that everyone knows who is the Goddess Isis, wife of Osiris) and Serapis: The church, built in the VIII century, was built exactly on the remains of the apse cell dedicated to Isis .

Building of a church on the site of the destroyed Temple of the Sun.



The Past and the Ancestors should be remembered ...
Everyone says that studying the past is for the future ...



Tyrannos

atanu
30 November 2008, 11:18 PM
:headscratch: Are you saying that the Dharma is relative???
Tyrannos

Namaste Tyrannos,

Please read again what I wrote and find the word 'discrimination' therein and then seek to clarify.

Om

atanu
01 December 2008, 12:08 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste

As I see it birth is one thing, actions and intent are another.



Namaste yajvan,

You have highlighted a truth, which is the hallmark of Satya, the support of a Brahmin.

Yet, exception proves the rule that Karma does decide a birth and also the Gunas, the intents and subsequent actions. Tyrrannos jumps and accepts half part of your whole statement. Tyrannos ignores the fact that Satyakama did not deviate from the truth. But then applies your statement as a general rule. Is everyone entitled to become Satyakama even without upholding the truth?

I cannot go on and say that atanu and Einstein are same, even if my intentions and actions are towards that.

Surely, Jesus who gave up his life upholding the truth was a Brahmin in essence -- the knower and teacher of Brahman. Is it Brahminic to hold that teachings of Jesus and Mohammad create militants?

It is equivalent to saying that Krishna is responsible for the world as it is today. It is equivalent to saying that Shri Krishna is responsible for what Hindus are going through today.

Tyrannos is throughout teaching us that only and yet taking support of your citation, at which I am a bit disappointed.

--------------------------

To discount that there in no effect of past karma/sadhana on the placement of subsequent birth is to discount continuity of soul and Karma.

What one meditates on and dwells on continually decides what kind of body and environment one will get subsequently. These are very well known teachings of Sanatana Dharma. Shri Krishna indeed says that one who has been pious and devoted will obtain a pious birth, even if he has failed to achieve the Atman.

If some one insists that a Muslim, who has interpreted Koran based on His own ugly mixture of Guna, will be at equal ease in interpreting the scripture as a Brahmin may be able to do, is the problem. It altogether discounts the Sadhana that gets a soul a pious environment.

The only point of contention may be that I observe that most dictators have been from the regions where Christian and Islam religions spread. Actually they killed Jesus. Though Ibrahim-Abraham is the common source yet there has been wars amongst each other. OTOH, there is not single instance of Dictatorship or aggression from India. Based on these observations, a pre-ponderance, in general, of Rajas in people of these regions has been inferred. It does not apply sweepingly to every one. And, it has been stressed again and again that Purusha is ONE, pervasive in every form. The differences are of ever changing Gunas experienced by the egos, including mine.

What is the problem to accept that Guna composition of egos vary and some become tyrrants and some become sage? Some become Einstein and some Frankenstein? Some Hitler and some Martin Luther King?

Regards

Om

PS: It is futile to argue that the Guna environments in a Temple and in the Share market are same. For a Gunatit, it does not matter. But it matters to us, else Satsang would not have been prescribed.

amra
01 December 2008, 02:56 AM
tyrannos, what do you have to say of the orphic tradition where Christ is represented as a Snake entwined around the cross?

Or the docetic belief in the second body of Christ the one made from light.

Are these not 'pagan' beliefs?

The line between paganism and Christianity is not as clear as you make out. You are making another Satan, like early Christians did, but your Satan is the imaginary entity of the 'christian religion' As said above Christianity and paganism have overlapped, mutually interpenetrated, to extract an imaginary entity of some kind of evil Christianity from this interpenetration, is erroneous. Psuedo-dionysius the areopagite is a prime example of the overlap.

MahaHrada
01 December 2008, 08:18 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Namaste




Chāndogya Upaniṣad ( 4.4.1)

Satyakāma (one that desires satya सत्य - truth) decides it's time to approach a guru for more knowledge and advance his learning.

Before doing so he will be asked about his lineage. To this he goes to his mother, Jabālā¹, to find out the particulars of his birth. Jabālā says Satyakāma, I do not know who you father is. As a maid servant (not dasi) I went from house to house. Hence I do not know your gotra (lineage), nor your correct father. Hence when you announce yourself the best you can say is you are Satyakāma Jabālā .

Satyakāma remains innocent about it, as did his mother with her straightforward answer to him. With his intention, he approaches the gurukulam and Gautama, the guru of the ashram and says, Sir, I wish to live as brahmacārin under you.

Obviously, Gautama asks of his lineage. Satykāma is straightforward and says he does not know and explains his mother's maid servant conditions. He finishes by saying, Revered Sir, can I , Satyakāma Jābāla, being such, may I approach you as a śiṣya (a student)?

Gautama says, none other then a brāhmaṇa can say as you have. You did not deviate from the truth. Bring the samit (or the fuel) for the yajña.

As I see it birth is one thing, actions and intent are another.


words
Jabālā जबाला or ja + bālā: ja is born from + bālā a young woman
Gautama गौतम - is the ṛṣi beloninging to the family of gotama, the family (gotra) of aṅgiras. Perhaps this Gautama is Akṣapāda, the author of Nyāyasūtra, I am uncertain about this.





....and Satyakama was accepted as a shisya because of his truthfulness.

But this topic i feel is not about such a delicate matter of trust and surrender as a Guru Shisya situation, where the Guru is afflicted by all the karma of his student good and bad, and has to judge whether the disciple has the necessary qualifications and ripeness to enter into that relationsship

Here we are only concerned with the acceptance or non acceptance of the Validity of one single quote or a single posting in a discussion forum on the internet.

Why should one not even accept a single paragraph from a basic instruction by John Hughes although John posseses the highest credentials that are possible he has not only received that Knowledge from books, but by Guru shisya Parampara, even more than only hat he has stayed faithfully with his Guru for 15 years, who was one of the greatest contemporary master of that Tradition, occupied with the task of recording each and every word of the Guru.

Nonetheless there is disrespects and one cannot accept a single basic qote of that notable person to be worthy of consideration simply because John Hughes lacks Indian birth?

What is this behaviour?

Again i say this is not about Varna! I can understand if a shisya is not accepted because he is a toilet cleaner or working in a slaughterhouse especially in the vaidika marga or if there is avoidance of contact with some unclean people because of the outer purity required when one is engaged in vaidika anusthanams

But was John Hughes a toilet cleaner and atanu his Guru or is atanu a vaidika steeped in his anusthanams?

NO not at all! none of this apllies here.

Johns and also Tyrannos only fault is that they are westerners.

This is if at all only loosely related with the topic of Varna or Guru shisya relationship, it is more properly related to maintaining simple practical virtues like courtesy and hospitality, this is a question of good manners in discussions or lack of the same.

That this is blown up into a discussion about Varna and Dharma requiring quotes from the shastras is caused by the bloated perception of the importance of what has transpired. A dog shits in the woods and people start quoting the vedas.

Tyrannos
01 December 2008, 10:29 PM
tyrannos, what do you have to say of the Orphic tradition where christ is represented as a Snake entwined around the cross?
???The Orphic tradition does not speak of christianity! The Orphics were not christians!
And the Hymn to Zeus that I have mentioned shows this fact...
For this thing and everything else you have to cite the texts and the authors!!!
However, the Snake is Satan ... maybe you're confusing...


The line between paganism and christianity is not as clear as you make out.
Try to ask to a christian priest what he thinks of the Ancient Religions!

As in the ancient persian religion Indra is not a God but a demon and with him all the Devas, in the same way in the abrahamic religions the Gods are demons ...all the Gods!!!...this is a reversal of the Truth ...
Tyrannos ignores the fact that Satyakama did not deviate from the Truth

The ancient persian religion also spoke of an eternal war between Devas and asuras, but they were on the side of asuras ...:
"thou who art the mightiest asura(ahura), the wise (mazda) one" (Yasna 33.11)...:eek:
Zoroaster, the prophet of the ancient persian religion , speaks of the existence of other asuras, and describes the Devas as "false Gods" or Gods "that should not be worshipped" and "whose followers are to be brought onto the path of the asuras"...
Zoroaster in the Gathas censures the Devas as being incapable of discerning truth from falsehood...:eek:

In Vendidad the Gods of the Vedic pantheon follow Aryaman in a list of demons: these are Indra, Sarva and Nasatya... :eek:
The Arch-Enemy of the ancient persian religion is Aryaman, "the Noble One", an Aditya...so that is clearly an asuric and adharmic religion :

in the story about Taraka, he, having momentarily defeated the Gods, replaces the Gods with his friends asuras ...Tarak himself takes the place of Indra!

And this is another example:

"Hear, sire," replied Prahláda, "what in obedience to your commands I will repeat, the substance of all I have learned: listen attentively to that which wholly occupies my thoughts. I have learned to adore him who is without beginning, middle, or end, increase or diminution; the imperishable lord of the world, the universal cause of causes." On hearing these words, the sovereign of the Daityas, his eyes red with wrath, and lip swollen with indignation, turned to the preceptor of his son, and said, "Vile Brahman, what is this preposterous commendation of my foe, that, in disrespect to me, you have taught this boy to utter?" "King of the Daityas," replied the Guru, "it is not worthy of you to give way to passion: that which your son has uttered, he has not been taught by me." "By whom then," said Hirańyakaśipu to the lad, "by whom has this lesson, boy, been taught you? your teacher denies that it proceeds from him." "Vishńu, father," answered Prahláda, "is the instructor of the whole world: what else should any one teach or learn, save him the supreme spirit?" "Blockhead," exclaimed the king, "who is this Vishńu, whose name you thus reiterate so impertinently before me, who am the sovereign of the three worlds?" "The glory of Vishnu," replied Prahláda, "is to be meditated upon by the devout; it cannot be described: he is the supreme lord, who is all things, and from whom all things proceed." To this the king rejoined, "Are you desirous of death, fool, that you give the title of supreme lord to any one whilst I survive?" "Vishnu, who is Brahma," said Prahláda, "is the creator and protector, not of me alone, but of all human beings, and even, father, of you: he is the supreme lord of all. Why should you, sire, be offended?" Hirańyakaśipu then exclaimed, "What evil spirit has entered into the breast of this silly boy, that thus, like one possessed, he utters such profanity?" "Not into my heart alone," said Prahláda, "has Vishńu entered, but he pervades all the regions of the universe, and by his omnipresence influences the conduct of all beings, mine, fattier, and thine ." "Away with the wretch!" cried the king; "take him to his preceptor's mansion. By whom could he have been instigated to repeat the lying praises of my foe?"Vishnu Purana
The words of Hiranyakaśipu are very similar,indeed equal, to this:
Deuteronomy 17:3-7: "...If anyone hath gone and served other Gods, and worshipped them, either the Sun, or Moon, or any of the Host of Heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

Every culture has a religion: but it seems strange that only the Hindus and the followers of the Ancient religions have completely understood the lessons of the Sages and of the Sacred Texts of their respective religions, and instead the followers of abrahamic religions have not understood and misunderstand the teachings of their own religion...Just a strange coincidence, a strange randomness ... why we need to justify at all costs adharmics actions of the followers of abrahamic religions(destructions of the Temples of the Gods,etc.), saying "they do not understand their own religion"? Instead, they understand and do it ...


Jesus who gave up his life upholding the truth was a Brahmin in essence -- the knower and teacher of Brahman
A Brahmin in essence -- a knower and teacher of Brahman- who says things like this:

John 3:36(Jesus speaking)
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of god abideth on him.
Matt 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Luke 51-53
Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother.
This is a lesson worthy of a Brahmin? :confused: To me this seems the teaching of an asura-Brahmin...


It is equivalent to saying that Krishna is responsible for the world as it is today
"Dharma said to Kalki: Right now, infidels like Saka, Kamboja, Sabara etc. are under the control of kali and that mighty kali has defeated me taking advantage of the influence of the time. The righteous men are being tortured and consigned to the flames. That's why I have come for Your protection."Kalki Purana

"Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its Cause;
everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name
for Law not recognized; there are many planes of causation,
but nothing escapes the Law."--The Kybalion


Tyrrannos jumps and accepts half part of your whole statement. Tyrannos ignores the fact that Satyakama did not deviate from the truth
and

What a terrible karma it is to insult those sent down from above for the betterment of humanity
Do you know the abrahamic story of Adam and Eve and the Tree and the Snake? well: the tree is the Tree of Knowledge ...the Snake is the Arch-Enemy of the abrahamic religions (Satan) in the form of a Snake. He try to convince the two humans to eat an apple, so they will have the Knowledge, the Wisdom: but the abrahamic "god" wants human beings to live in ignorance ... and so when they eat the apple he punishes them ... and exiled them from his "paradise"(a patala?).This is the "original sin"!!!
The christians texts say that the Nazarene came to the Earth to save humanity from "original sin" ... which is the Knowledge! And so he taught his beliefs ...


You are making another Satan, like early christians did, but your Satan is the imaginary entity of the 'christian religion'
Satan-Serapis-Osiris-Hades-Yama-Dharma is the imaginary entity of the christian religion??? Yama is an imaginary entity???

This is a strange statement ...

Salutations to all!!!;)
Tyrannos

atanu
01 December 2008, 10:39 PM
-This is a lesson worthy of a Brahmin? :confused: To me this seems the teaching of an asura-Brahmin...
;)
Tyrannos

Tyrranos,

Read the full thing before jumping to conclusions. He has given you a challenge to go over his divisive facade.

May God give you slowness.

Om

amra
02 December 2008, 03:03 AM
You are making another Satan, like early christians did, but your Satan is the imaginary entity of the 'christian religion'

Satan-Serapis-Osiris-Hades-Yama-Dharma is the imaginary entity of the christian religion??? Yama is an imaginary entity???

This is a strange statement ...

This is one of the many mis-understandings in your post, I said clearly above your satan is the imaginary entity you have made of the Christian religion.

The paralells you draw between satan yama and dharma are absurd to say the least. The idea of Satan is far more complex than this, I refer you to a book - Peter J awn - Iblis(satan) in sufi psychology. Satan has been interpreted in a myriad of different ways by different traditions. The yazidis in the middle east revere Satan as Melek Taus, the peacock angel. But they do not associate the negative elements of Satan prevelant in orthodox theology. Satan in ismaili gnosis is the revealer of esoteric hidden truths, he reveals them to adam in the beggining of the age. Also all must know that satan is a fallen angel, because he refused to bow before Gods creation Adam. Because adam was made from clay and satan from fire. There is much symbolism involved here, the crime is literal interpretation. According to a gnostic myth all the angels bowed down except satan who then saw the secret essence of adam, the secret of humanity. Satan was then sent down to earth into creation, to test humanity, by making them suffer, to realise their true essence or self. There is a better correspondence between Satan and Rahu - Ketu, the demons who drank amrita. Rahu - Ketu make you learn by suffering by revealing and obscuring.

As all can see it is a very dangerous thing to write satan - osiris - yama - dharma when the development of this mythology is much deeper and complex. This type of reductionism is insulting to all real traditions, and seems to serve a darker purpose of some worldly aim.

atanu
02 December 2008, 07:27 AM
As in the ancient persian religion Indra is not a God but a demon and with him all the Devas, in the same way in the abrahamic religions the Gods are demons ...all the Gods!!!...this is a reversal of the Truth ...

The ancient persian religion also spoke of an eternal war between Devas and asuras, but they were on the side of asuras ...:
"thou who art the mightiest asura(ahura), the wise (mazda) one" (Yasna 33.11)...:eek:
Zoroaster, the prophet of the ancient persian religion , speaks of the existence of other asuras, and describes the Devas as "false Gods" or Gods "that should not be worshipped" and "whose followers are to be brought onto the path of the asuras"...
Zoroaster in the Gathas censures the Devas as being incapable of discerning truth from falsehood...:eek:

In Vendidad the Gods of the Vedic pantheon follow Aryaman in a list of demons: these are Indra, Sarva and Nasatya... :eek:
The Arch-Enemy of the ancient persian religion is Aryaman, "the Noble One", an Aditya...so that is clearly an asuric and adharmic religion :

in the story about Taraka, he, having momentarily defeated the Gods, replaces the Gods with his friends asuras ...Tarak himself takes the place of Indra!



Namaste,

Earlier I believed the matter to be simple as you are making out. I have found numerous others doing so based on bits and pieces of scriptures copied and pasted from Internet.


When Indra kills Vritta with the help of Soma and Agni, Vritta says: "Indra, you will be hereafter what I was before." The Veda then says Vritta was the eater earlier and Vritta will be eater hereafter. Whereas Vritta is equated to Moon-Soma, yet it is with Soma's help that Indra kills Vritta. And funnily, Soma is called Indra in the 9th book of Rig Veda. Then Soma is also called the progenitor of Indra. Further Indra masters Soma in order to master all.

Moreover, Mahadeva Rudra is himself called the Asura in Rig Veda. And He is also Mahadeva. Mahadeva is Moon-Soma. Mahadeva-Rudra is Sun-Aditya. Sun and Moon are two eyes of Mahadeva and Agni his tongue.

He is the great Asura -- The one wise.

Actually, Satan is very much like the God Indra himself, who is the great benefactor and who is also the great destroyer. It depends which side your karma makes you see.

Yoga Vasista says when the anger of Rudra is appeased then He is Krishna. This has parallel from Veda which gives all contradictory effects of Rudra, describing him as impetuous leader of destruction on one side and the beneficient Shiva on the other.

Similarly, Gita says, 'Self is protector and Self is slayer'.

Finally, we arrive at the understanding that the Self-Shiva is ONE single, without a second, underlying all phenomenon as the immortal Truth --as pure Existence-Intelligence-Bliss. He is nirlipt and nishkam. But nature of your own of ego fire (which is transient ever changing phenomena) makes Him a killer or a protector.

Though different scriptures call the Self in different name but most scriptures give Him/It the expression "I am".

The Hebrew God Yahweh is present in Veda as "yahvah." "yahvah" is derived from "yah". Yahvah is Agni, Indra, Mahat, one that moves --the god of this world. And El-Elion, the God most high is shivA-shiv.




--------------------
यह्व is the cosmic Mind – the swift ever flowing consciousness, which begins with Soma (ananda-bliss) giving rise to Agni-Indra. यह्व is ME, creator brahmA, heaven and earth, and all gods and compassion.
ॡ (lRR) is शिव, the Leo, the Lion, elion, आइॣआ, nrisimha, the mind of the mind that guides the ever flowing mind. The God most high, the summit of summits, the God of Gods, mahesvara – the Supreme consciousness.-----------------------------

Demonstrated here is that indeed the Word was one to start with (and still is). It is another matter however, how Gunas act on each other to create great diversity.

The great diversity, if not seen as flowing from the root word, causes hardship, animosity etc.


Om

atanu
02 December 2008, 09:19 AM
Further.

Brihadarayanaka Upanishad tells us of fast moving Asva (Horse) -- the Mind, as the Universe. This Asva is stabled in a permanent substratum that we call the absolute, the unchanging, the Self, the Brahman.

"yahvah" Mahat, one that moves, the cosmic mind, the god of this world and and El-Elion, the God most high, shivA-shiv, the steady source and energy of the mind that moves are these two aspects. The states of Waking, Dreaming, and Sleeping correspond to Mahat whereas the eye of Mahat is the one unmoving, same in all states and transcendental to the states.

In samadhi, one may find the transcendental as the truth and the Mahat as non-existent. Or that Mahat itself is transcendetal absolute.
------------------------------

I find that different cultures worship different aspects of above Absolute-Fast Moving.

Western world concentrates on yahvah: Jews on yahvah directly, christians on the son, and Muslims on the Creator. The object of worship is same yahvah, though El-Elion is mentioned in the scriptures. There the locus of worship is the ever moving, which never is free of diversity. Though "I am" is the meaning of Mahat, yet in absence of meditation, "I am" is also not reached.

In two of the Mahat's states of waking or dreaming there will always be diversity and sense of higher and lower (with God as the highest for the believer). And the deep sleep state being darkness, worship of Mahat may not allow one to see the Truth as One. And so the majority believe Sinner Man and God as separate. Then the Ego impels such a beliver to reform other men or punish other men. Also in different cultures God has different name, so "My God is Highest" starts. Actually it is equal to saying "My belief is highest" or "I am better than you".


Sanatana Dharma, on the other hand, teaches that the Mahat is not the real target of attainment as below:


Om ! That (Brahman) is infinite, and this (universe) is infinite.
The infinite proceeds from the infinite.
(Then) taking the infinitude of the infinite (universe),
It remains as the infinite (Brahman) alone.
But Sanatana Dharma also teaches worship of the Lord manifest in the world and worship of the Lord transcendental together as below:





He who knows both the Unmanifested and the destructible together, transcends death by the (worship of) the destructible and attains immortality by the (worship of ) the Unmanifested.Western religious leaders have banned worship of the manifest in such strong terms that it has become the root of violence and hatred. Though they worship their bodies the most. The effect of not understanding the Manifest and the Unmanifest as ONE is as below:


To pitch darkness they go who worship the Unmanifested. To a greater darkness than this go those who are devoted to the Manifested.That IMO is the great divide.


Om

Tyrannos
02 December 2008, 10:00 AM
Hail!!!


The yazidis in the middle east revere Satan as Melek Taus, the peacock angel. But they do not associate the negative elements of Satan prevelant in orthodox theology. Satan in ismaili gnosis is the revealer of esoteric hidden truths, he reveals them to adam in the beggining of the age. Also all must know that satan is a fallen angel, because he refused to bow before Gods creation Adam. Because adam was made from clay and satan from fire. There is much symbolism involved here, the crime is literal interpretation. According to a gnostic myth all the angels bowed down except satan who then saw the secret essence of adam, the secret of humanity. Satan was then sent down to earth into creation, to test humanity, by making them suffer, to realise their true essence or self.

Obviously we can not imagine the followers of abrahamic religions to speak rightly of Satan: He is their Arch-enemy!!!

Studying about Satan with a point of view only abrahamic is something relative and partial and misleading ...


Satan is Serapis is Osiris is Hades is Yama is Dharma: the Ruler of Hell...and the Hell is the House of "evil" in the abrahamic religions...



Mahadeva Rudra is himself called the Asura in Rig Veda
I am responding to this with what you have written:

the Self-Shiva is ONE single, without a second, underlying all phenomenon as the immortal Truth --as pure Existence-Intelligence-Bliss


Obviously also the asuras are part of the All...and so also the abrahamic "god":
but we must remember that MahaDeva destroys the asuras ... when the asuras threaten the worlds MahaDeva destroys the asuras ...



However, I do not think that the Vedas can be cited so lightly...
The uninitiated can not read the Vedas...



Earlier I believed the matter to be simple as you are making out. I have found numerous others doing so based on bits and pieces of scriptures copied and pasted from Internet

It's philologically tried by eminent scholars of the history of religions ...
Certainly I have not read the full texts of the persians because persian texts are adharmic ...but I have studied these things ...




I find that different cultures worship different aspects of above Absolute-Fast Moving



Try to ask to a priest of the abrahamic religions what he think of the Great Goddess MahaMaya or of the Prakriti...:banghead: The followers of the abrahamic religions hate the Linga and also the Yoni...Sozomen in Histories Book 7 wrote:


"The bishop of Alexandria, to whom the temple of Dionysus had, at his own request, been granted by the emperor, converted the edifice into a church. The statues were removed, the adyta were exposed; and, in order to cast contumely on the pagan mysteries, he made a procession for the display of these objects; the phalli, and whatever other object had been concealed in the adyta which really was, or seemed to be, ridiculous, he made a public exhibition of."



Tyrannos
:)

atanu
02 December 2008, 10:40 AM
Hail!!!


but we must remember that MahaDeva destroys the asuras ... when the asuras threaten the worlds MahaDeva destroys the asuras ...




The point is that Mahadeva himself is known as Asura.


It's philologically tried by eminent scholars of the history of religions ...
Certainly I have not read the full texts of the persians because persian texts are adharmic ...but I have studied these things ...

Do not do that.





Try to ask to a priest of the abrahamic religions what he think of the Great Goddess MahaMaya or of the Prakriti...:banghead:


Don't do that you will break your head. Leave it to God.


Om

Tyrannos
02 December 2008, 11:04 AM
Certainly I have not read the full texts of the persians because persian texts are adharmic ...but I have studied these things ... Do not do that.
Thanks for the warning;)


Don't do that you will break your head. Leave it to God.:confused:


:headscratch:
Tyrannos

Tyrannos
02 December 2008, 08:38 PM
Hail!!!


As someone says that the followers of abrahamic religions and the followers of Sanatana Dharma revere the same Absolute, that there is no difference between Sanatana Dharma and the abrahamic religions, and so on...(although the followers of the abrahamic religions have destroyed and destroy the Temples of the Gods, although in the present they perform actions contrary to the Eternal Dharma that everybody knows, and in the past they have done actions contrary to the Eternal Dharma that I have mentioned in this discussion, and so on...),

and to add another Warning for the Hindu Dharma, I decided to mention here 3 articles written by orthodox christian priests, articles found on their sites;
The authors are orthodox cristian priests, and no one can say that they do not know their "god" or that they have not learned the "real" teachings of their "religion" : they have direct relationships with their "god" ... like any priest of any religion...

Read what they say, how big Adharma is in their words: their real asuric essence is fully and completely revealed ... through their own words...
Listen:


The following article comes from the experience of a woman who, after attending high school in a Roman Catholic convent, practiced Hinduism for twenty years until finally, by God's grace, she was converted to the Orthodox Faith, finding the end of her search for truth in the Russian Church Outside of Russia. She currently resides on the West Coast. May her words serve to open the eyes of those Orthodox Christians who might be tempted to follow the blind "Liberal" whose answer to the assault of Paganism upon the Church of Christ is to conduct a "dialogue" with its wizards and join them in worshipping the very Gods of the Pagans.
The Attractions of Hinduism:
I was just sixteen when two events set the course of my life. I came to Dominican Catholic Convent in San Rafael (California) and encountered Christianity for the first time. The same year I also encountered Hinduism in the person of a Hindu monk, a Swami, who was shortly to become my guru or teacher. A battle had begun, but I wasn't to understand this for nearly twenty years.
At the convent I was taught the basic truths of Christianity. Here lie the strength of the humble and a snare to the proud. St. James wrote truly: God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble (4:6). And how proud I was; I wouldn't accept original sin and I wouldn't accept hell. And I had many, many arguments against them. One Sister of great charity gave me the key when she said: "Pray for the gift of faith." But already the Swami's training had taken hold, and I thought it debasing to beg anyone, even God, for anything. But much later, I remembered what she had said. Years later the seed of Christian faith that had been planted in me emerged from an endless sea of despair.
In time the nature of the books that I brought back to school with me, all in plain covered wrappers, was discovered. Books like the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Vedantasara, the Ashtavakra Samhita... In part my secret was out, but nothing much was said. No doubt the Sisters thought it would pass, as indeed most of the intellectual conceits of young girls do. But one bold nun told me the truth. It's a very unpopular truth and one that is rarely heard today. She said that I would go to hell if I died in Hinduism after knowing the truth of Christianity. Saint Peter put it this way: For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome, their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of good, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them (2 Peter 2:19-21). How I despised that Sister for her bigotry. But if she were alive today I would thank her with all my heart. What she told me nagged, as truth will, and it was to lead me finally to the fullness of Holy Orthodoxy.
The important thing that I got at the convent was a measuring stick, and one day I would use it to discover Hinduism a fraud.
The situation has changed so much since I was in school. What was an isolated case of Hinduism has developed into an epidemic. Now one must have an intelligent understanding of Hindu dogmatics if one is to prevent young Christians from committing spiritual suicide when they encounter Eastern religions.
The appeal of Hinduism is full spectrum; there are blandishments for every faculty and appeals to every weakness, but particularly to pride. And being very proud, even at sixteen, it was to these that I first fell prey. Original sin, hell, and the problem of pain troubled me. I'd never taken them seriously before I came to the convent. Then, the Swami presented an "intellectually satisfying" alternative for every uncomfortable Christian dogma. Hell was, after all, only a temporary state of the soul brought on by our own bad karma (past actions) in this or in a former life. And, of course, a finite cause couldn't have an infinite effect. Original sin was marvelously transmuted into Original Divinity. This was my birth right, and nothing I could ever do would abrogate this glorious end. I was Divine. I was God: "the Infinite Dreamer, dreaming finite dreams."


As for the problem of pain, the Hindu philosophy known as Vedanta has a really elegant philosophical system to take care of it. In a nutshell, pain was maya or illusion. It had no real existence — and what's more, the Advaitin could claim to prove it!



In another area, Hinduism appeals to the very respectable error of assuming that man is perfectable: through education (in their terms, the guru system) and through "evolution" (the constant progressive development of man spiritually).


But perhaps the most generally compelling attraction is pragmatism. The entire philosophical construct of Hinduism is buttressed by the practical religious instructions given to the disciple by his guru. With these practices the disciple is invited to verify the philosophy by his own experience. Nothing has to be accepted on faith. And contrary to popular notions, there aren't any mysteries — just a tremendous amount of esoteric material — so there simply is no need for faith. You are told: "Try it, and see if it works." This pragmatic approach is supremely tempting to the Western mind. It appears so very "scientific." But almost every student falls right into a kind of pragmatic fallacy: i.e., if the practices work (and they do in fact work), he believes that the system is true, and implicitly, that it is good — This, of course, doesn't follow. All that can really be said is: if they work, then they work. But missing this point, you can understand how a little psychic experience gives the poor student a great deal of conviction.

This brings me to the last blandishment that I'll mention, which is "spiritual experiences." These are psychic and diabolic in origin. But who among the practitioners has any way of distinguishing delusion from true spiritual experience? They have no measuring stick. But don't think that what they see, hear, smell and touch in these experiences are the result of simple mental aberration. They aren't. They are what our Orthodox tradition calls prelest. It's an important word, because it refers to the exact condition of a person having Hindu "spiritual experiences." There is no precise equivalent to the term prelest in the English lexicon. It covers the whole range of false spiritual experiences: from simple illusion and beguilement to actual possession. In every case the counterfeit is taken as genuine and the overall effect is an accelerated growth of pride. A warm, comfortable sense of special importance settles over the person in prelest, and this compensates for all his austerities and pain.
In his first Epistle, Saint John warns the early Christians: Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of god... (4:1).
Saint Gregory of Sinai was careful to instruct his monks on the dangers of these experiences: "All around, near to beginners and the self-willed, the demons are wont to spread the nets of thoughts and pernicious fantasies and prepare moats for their downfall..." A monk asked him: "What is a man to do when the demon takes the form of an angel of light?" The Saint replied: "In this case a man needs great power of discernment to discriminate rightly between good and evil. So in your heedlessness, do not be carried away too quickly by what you see, but be weighty (not easy to move) and, carefully testing everything, accept the good and reject the evil. Always you must test and examine, and only afterwards believe. Know that the actions of grace are manifest, and the demon, in spite of his transformations, cannot produce them: namely, meekness, friendliness, humility, hatred of the world, cutting off passions and lust — which are the effects of grace. Works of the demons are: arrogance, conceit, intimidation and all evil. By such actions you will be able to discern whether the light shining in your heart is of God or of Satan. Lettuce looks like mustard, and vinegar in color like wine; but when you taste them the palate discerns and defines the difference between each. In the same way the soul, if it has discernment, can discriminate by mental taste the gifts of the Holy Spirit from the fantasies and illusions of Satan."
The misguided or proud spiritual aspirant is most vulnerable to prelest. And the success and durability of Hinduism depends very largely on this false mysticism. How very appealing it is to drug using young people, who have already been initiated into these kinds of experiences. The last few years have seen the flowering and proliferating of Swamis. They saw their opportunity for fame and wealth in this ready-made market. And they took it.













All the Gods of the Pagans are demons (Psalm 95:5)
Today christianity is taking the thrusts of a foe that is all but invisible to the faithful. And if it can, it will pierce to the heart before declaring its name. The enemy is Hinduism, and the war being waged is a war of dogma.

When Vedanta Societies were founded in this country, around the turn of the century, first efforts were directed to establishing that there was no real difference between Hinduism and Christianity. Not only was there no conflict, but a good Christian would be a better Christian by studying and practicing the Vedanta; he would understand the real Christianity.
In early lectures, the Swamis attempted to show that those ideas which seemed peculiar to Christianity — like the Logos and the Cross — really had their origin in India. And those ideas which seemed peculiar to Hinduism — like rebirth, transmigration of the soul and samadhi (or trance) were also to be found in Christian scripture — when it was properly interpreted.
This kind of bait caught many sincere but misguided Christians. The early push was against what might be called "sectarian" dogmas, and for a so-called scientific religion based on a comparative study of all religions. Primary stress was always on this: there is no such thing as difference. All is One. All differences are just on the surface; they are apparent or relative, not real. All this is clear from published lectures that were delivered in the early 1900's. Today we are in great danger because this effort was so very successful.
Now common parlance has "dogma" a derisive term. But this scorn could not have originated with those who know that it refers to the most precious heritage of the Church. However, once the bad connotation became fixed, the timid, who never like to be associated with the unpopular, began to speak of "rigid dogma," which is redundant but bespeaks disapproval. So the attitude was insidiously absorbed from "broad-minded" critics who either didn't know that dogma states what Christianity is, or simply didn't like what Christianity is all about.
The resulting predisposition of many Christians to back down when faced with the accusation of holding to dogma has given the Hindus no small measure of help. And aid from within had strategic advantages.
The incredible fact is that few see that the very power that would overturn Christian dogma is itself nothing but an opposing system of dogmas. The two cannot blend or "enrich" each other because they are wholly antithetical.
If Christians are persuaded to throw out (or what is tactically more clever) to alter their dogmas to suit the demand for a more up-to-date or "universal" Christianity, they have lost everything, because what is valued by Christians and by Hindus is immediately derived from their dogmas. And Hindu dogmas are a direct repudiation of Christian dogmas. This leads us to a staggering conclusion: What Christians believe to be evil, Hindus believe to be good, and conversely: What Hindus believe to be evil, Christians believe to be good.


The real struggle lies in this: that the ultimate sin for the Christian, is the ultimate realization of good for the Hindu. Christians have always acknowledged pride as the basic sin — the fountainhead of all sin. And Lucifer is the archetype when he says. "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the Most High." On a lower level, it is pride that turns even man's virtues into sins. But for the Hindu in general, and the Advaitin or Vedantan in particular, the only "sin" is not to believe in yourself and in Humanity as God Himself. In the words of Swami Vivekananda (who was the foremost modern advocate of Vedanta): "You do not yet understand India! We Indians are Man-worshippers after all. Our God is Man!" The doctrine of mukti or salvation consists in this: that "Man is to become Divine by realizing the Divine."

From this one can see the dogmas of Hinduism and Christianity standing face to face, each defying the other on the nature of God, the nature of man and the purpose of human existence.

But when Christians accept the Hindu propaganda that there is no battle going on, that the differences between Christianity and Hinduism are only apparent and not real — then Hindu ideas are free to take over the souls of Christians, winning the battle without a struggle. And the end result of this battle is truly shocking; the corrupting power of Hinduism is immense. In my own case, with all of the basically sound training that I received at the convent, twenty years in Hinduism brought me to the very doors of the love of evil. You see, in India "God" is also worshipped as Evil, in the form of the Goddess Kali.
But about this I will speak in the next section, on Hindu practices.
This is the end in store when there is no more Christian dogma. I say this from personal experience, because I have worshipped Kali in India and in this country. And she is Satan.

Tyrannos
02 December 2008, 08:55 PM
This is the third article:


Hindu Places and Practices
In 1956 I did field work with headhunters in the Philippines. My interest was in primitive religion -particularly in what is termed an "unacculturated" area — where there had been few missionaries. When I arrived in Ifugao (that's the name of the tribe), I didn't believe in black magic; when I left, I did. An Ifugao priest (a munbaki) named Talupa became my best friend and informant. In time I learned that he was famous for his skill in the black art. He took me to the baki, which is a ceremony of ritualistic magic that occurred almost every night during the harvest season. A dozen or so priests gathered in a hut and the night was spent invoking deities and ancestors, drinking rice wine and making sacrifices to the two small images known as bulol. They were washed in chicken blood, which had been caught in a dish and used to divine the future before it was used on the images. They studied the blood for the size and number of bubbles in it, the time it took to coagulate; also, the color and configuration of the chicken's organs gave them information. Each night I dutifully took notes. But this was just the beginning. I won't elaborate on Ifugao magic; suffice it to say that by the time I left, I had seen such a variety and quantity of supernatural occurrences that any scientific explanation was virtually impossible. If I had been predisposed to believe anything when I arrived. it was that magic had a wholly natural explanation. Also, let me say that I don't frighten very easily. But the fact is that I left Ifugao because I saw that their rituals not only worked, but they had worked on me at least twice.

I say all this so that what I say about Hindu practices and places of worship will not seem incredible, the product of a "heated brain."
Eleven years after the Ifugao episode, I made a pilgrimage to the Cave of Amarnath, deep in the Himalayas. Hindu tradition has it the most sacred place of Siva worship, the place where he manifests himself to his devotees and grants boons. It is a long and difficult journey over the Mahaguna, a 14,000 foot pass, and across a glacier; so there was plenty of time to worship him mentally on the way, especially since the boy who led the pack pony didn't speak any English, and I didn't speak any Hindi. This time I was predisposed to believe that the god whom I had worshipped and meditated on for years would graciously manifest himself to me.
The Siva image in the cave is itself a curiosity: an ice image formed by dripping water. It waxes and wanes with the moon. When it is full moon, the natural image reaches the ceiling of the cave — about 15 feet — and by the dark of the moon almost nothing of it remains. And so it waxes and wanes each month. To my knowledge, no one has explained this phenomenon. I approached the cave at an auspicious time, when the image had waxed full. I was soon to worship my god with green coconut, incense, red and white pieces of cloth, nuts, raisins and sugar — all the ritually prescribed items. I entered the cave with tears of devotion. What happened then is hard to describe. The place was vibrant — just like an Ifugao hut with baki in full swing. Stunned to find it a place of inexplicable wrongness, I left retching before the priest could finish making my offering to the great ice image.
The facade of Hinduism had cracked when I entered the Siva Cave, but it was still some time before I broke free. During the interim, I searched for something to support the collapsing edifice, but I found nothing. In retrospect, it seems to me that we often know something is really bad, long before we can really believe it. This applies to Hindu "spiritual practices" quite as much as it does to the so-called "holy places."
When a student is initiated by the guru, he is given a Sanskrit mantra (a personal magic formula), and specific religious practices. These are entirely esoteric and exist in the oral tradition. You won't find them in print and you are very unlikely to learn about them from an initiate, because of the strong negative sanctions which are enforced to protect this secrecy. In effect the guru invites his disciple to prove the philosophy by his own experience. The point is, these practices do in fact work. The student may get powers or "siddhis." These are things like reading minds, power to heal or destroy, to produce objects, to tell the future and so on — the whole gamut of deadly psychic parlor tricks. But far worse than this, he invariably falls into a state of prelest, where he takes delusion for reality. He has "spiritual experiences" of unbounded sweetness and peace. He has visions of Deities and of light. (One might recall that Lucifer himself can appear as an angel of light). By "delusion" I don't mean that he doesn't really experience these things; I mean rather that they are not from God. There is, of course, the philosophical construct that supports every experience, so the practices and the philosophy sustain each other and the system becomes very tight.
Actually, Hinduism is not so much an intellectual pursuit as a system of practices, and these are quite literally — black magic, Witchcraft. That is, if you do x, you get y: a simple contract. But the terms are not spelled out and rarely does a student ask where the experiences originate or who is extending him credit — in the form of powers and "beautiful" experiences. It's the classical Faustian situation, but what the practitioner doesn't know is that the price may well be his inmortal soul.
There's a vast array of practices — practices to suit every temperament. The chosen deity may be with form: a god or goddess; or formless: the Absolute Brahman. The relationship to the chosen Ideal also varies — it may be that of a child, mother, father, friend, beloved, servant or, in the case of Advaita Vedanta, the "relationship" is identity. At the time of initiation the guru gives his disciple a mantra and this determines the path he will follow and the practices he will take up. The guru also dictates how the disciple will live his everyday life. In the Vedanta (or monistic system) single disciples are not to marry; all their powers are to be directed towards success in the practices. Nor is a sincere disciple a meat eater, because meat blunts the keen edge of perception. The guru is literally regarded as God Himself — he is the disciple's Redeemer.
At base, the many "spiritual" exercises derive from only a few root practices. I'll just skim over them.
First, there's idolatry. It may be the worship of an image or a picture, with offerings of light, camphor, incense, water and sweets. The image may be fanned with a yak tail, bathed, dressed and put to bed. This sounds very childish, but it is prudent not to underestimate the psychic experiences which they can elicit. Vedantic idolatry takes the form of self-worship — either mentally or externally, with all the ritualistic props. A common aphoristic saying in India epitomizes this self-worship. It is So Ham, So Ham, or "I am He, I am He."
Then there's Japa, or the repetition of the Sanskrit mantra given to the disciple at his initiation. In effect, it's the chanting of a magic formula.
Pranayama consists in breathing exercises used in conjunction with Japa. There are other practices which are peculiar to the Tantra or worship of God as Mother, the female principle, power, energy, the principle of evolution and action. They're referred to as the five Ms. They're overtly evil and rather sick-making, so I won't describe them. But they, too, have found their way to this country. Swami Vivekananda prescribed this brand of Hinduism along with the Vedanta. He said: I worship the Terrible! It is a mistake to hold that with all men pleasure is the motive. Quite as many are born to seek after pain. Let us worship the Terror for Its own sake. How few have dared to worship Death, or Kali! Let us worship Death!Again, the Swami's words on the goddess Kali: There are some who scoff at the existence of Kali. Yet today She is out there amongst the people. They are frantic with fear, and the soldiery have been called to deal out death. Who can say that God does not manifest Himself as Evil as well as Good? But only the Hindu dares worship Him as the Evil.
The great pity is that this one-pointed practice of evil is carried on in the firm conviction that it's good. And the salvation that is vainly sought through arduous self-effort in Hinduism can only be wrought by God through Christian self-effacement.



I apologize for the bad things mentioned, but the Warning is very important,
Tyrannos

atanu
02 December 2008, 10:42 PM
Tyrranos,

I think it would be better if you gave the links rather than paste the full volume of texts. Opinions do not constitute the truth but they consitute the noise, which one has to sift through.

Best Wishes.

Om

atanu
03 December 2008, 01:28 AM
Hail!!!




The real struggle lies in this: that the ultimate sin for the Christian, is the ultimate realization of good for the Hindu.


Christians have always acknowledged pride as the basic sin — the fountainhead of all sin. And Lucifer is the archetype when he says. "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will ascend above the clouds; I will be like the Most High." On a lower level, it is pride that turns even man's virtues into sins. But for the Hindu in general, and the Advaitin or Vedantan in particular, the only "sin" is not to believe in yourself and in Humanity as God Himself. In the words of Swami Vivekananda (who was the foremost modern advocate of Vedanta): "You do not yet understand India! We Indians are Man-worshippers after all. Our God is Man!" The doctrine of mukti or salvation consists in this: that "Man is to become Divine by realizing the Divine."



Tyrranos,

If you read a few posts in Hare Krishna or Dvaita forums, you will find much worse written of Advaita, Vivekanada or even Shri Shankaracharya. What to do? Enthusiasm can manifest in opposite ways. Like many Christians denigrate Lucifer's goal of attaining the 'Most High', there are very good devotees in India who abhor the idea that a Man should be aiming to become God. Whereas, Shankaracharya is teaching nothing of that sort.

So, there is a gradation of clarity. As one's value system is cleansed of biases which have been built up over time based on the simple and basic ignorance 'I am this body', one begins to comprehend better Lucifer or Shankara.

Om

Tyrannos
07 December 2008, 11:27 PM
If you read a few posts in Hare Krishna or Dvaita forums, you will find much worse written of Advaita, Vivekakanada or even Shri Shankaracharya. What to do? Enthusiasm can manifest in opposite ways.
Opposite ways...one thing is to argue, another thing is the persecution of ALL the followers of the Gods and the destruction of ALL the temples of the Gods...
All the Gods of the Pagans are demons (Psalm 95:5) : this is not an opinion;This is written in their sacred text: there is little to misunderstand...and they have done and do exactely what their "god" commands...

Hail!!!
Since someone said that christians are not all equal:
Protestant christians in america:
"It is by virtue of evil Spirits that Witches do what they do. We read in Ephes. 2, 2. about the Prince of the power of the air. There is confined unto the Atmosphere of our Air a vast Power, or Army of Evil Spirits, under the Government of a Prince who employes them in a continual Opposition to the Designs of God: The Name of that Leviathan, who is the Grand-Seigniour of Hell, we find in the Scripture to be Belzebub. Under the Command of that mighty Tyrant, there are vast Legions & Myriads of Devils, whose Businesses & Accomplishments are not all the same. Every one has his Post, and his Work"
(Rev. Cotton Mather in a sermon which did much to make that theory known and effective in New England. The sermon, preached in Boston in 1689, was speedily printed, under the title of A Discourse on Witchcraft, in Mather's Memorable Providences relating to Witchcraft and Possessions, Boston, 1689. This book, "recommended by the Ministers of Boston and Charleston," was in no small degree responsible for the great Salem persecution, which broke out in 1692.)"
Belzebub is the ancient Phoenician God Baal...
And the Witchcraft:
“Diana or Herodias.
Section 364 of the Benedictine Abbot's work relates that “certain abandoned women turning aside to follow Satan, being seduced by the illusions and phantasms of demons, believe and openly profess that in the dead of night they ride upon certain beasts with the pagan goddess Diana and a countless horde of women, and that in these silent hours they fly over vast tracks of country and obey her as their mistress, while on other nights they are sullen to pay her homage.” John of Salisbury, who died in 1180, in his “Policraticus,” I, xvii, speaks of the popular belief in a witch-queen named Herodias, who called together the sorcerers to meeting at night. In a MS., “De Sortilegis,” the following passage occurs: “We next inquire concerning certain wicked crones who believe and profess that in the night-time they ride abroad with Diana, the heathen goddess, or else with Herodias, and an innumerable host of women, upon certain beasts, and that in a silent covey at the dead of night they pass over immense distances, obeying her commands as their mistress, and that they are summoned by her on appointed nights, and they declare that they have the power to change human beings for better or for worse, ay, even to turn them into some other semblance or shape. Concerning such women I answer according to the decrees of the Council of Alexandria, that the minds of the faithful are disordered by such fantasies owing to the inspiration of no good spirit but of the Devil.”
Witches and Yogini...Diana and Kalii...as Artemidora said...

And remember the words of the christians:


twenty years in Hinduism brought me to the very doors of the love of evil. You see, in India "God" is also worshipped as Evil, in the form of the Goddess Kali.



But about this I will speak in the next section, on Hindu practices.
This is the end in store when there is no more Christian dogma. I say this from personal experience, because I have worshipped Kali in India and in this country. And she is Satan.


For Atanu: Unity, ok, but also difference...also the difference is a part of the All...
if we do not consider the differences, then we are not considering the ALL in its entirety...because the notion of unity and the notion of difference are parts of the All...in unity!!!
Or why the Gods fights against the asuras???


Tyrannos

Tyrannos
08 December 2008, 10:08 PM
Hail!!!


The Guardian reports:
The Orthodox Church, whose influence in Russia is rocketing since the fall of Communism eased religious worship, is furious at the prospect that a building big enough to hold 8,000 Hindu worshippers would be built, a few miles from Red Square. ... Valentin Lebedev, head of the Union of Orthodox Citizens of Russia, said: "According to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, Hinduism is considered one of the most anti-Christian cults and we do not understand why such an enormous church and cultural centre is necessary in Moscow."
Hindus all over the world have expressed outrage and anger after a leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, Archbishop Nikon called the Hindu God, Lord Krishna an ‘evil demon’ around the time of Indian Prime Minister’s state visit to Moscow to meet Russian President Putin.
In a letter to the Mayor of Moscow Yuri Luzhkov, wired by Interfax news agency on November 30, Archbishop of the Russian Orthodox Church Nikon called Lord Krishna “an evil demon, the Personified Power of Hell opposing God”, and “a livid lascivious youth”.
The Archbishop further requested the Mayor to ban construction of a proposed Hindu temple in Moscow saying it would otherwise become “an idolatrous disgrace erected for the glory of wicked and malicious ‘god’ Krishna”.
“Construction of the temple to Krishna offends our religious feelings and insults the thousand-year religious culture of Russia,” Interfax quoted Archbishop Nikon as saying.


The Past returns?the cristians now are peaceful?

Tyrannos

atanu
08 December 2008, 10:54 PM
For Atanu: Unity, ok, but also difference...also the difference is a part of the All...
if we do not consider the differences, then we are not considering the ALL in its entirety...because the notion of unity and the notion of difference are parts of the All...in unity!!!
Or why the Gods fights against the asuras???


Tyrannos

Namaste Tyrranos,

Of course but quite not. The differences are not part of the whole ONE, which Hindu dharma takes pain to teach is ONE Samaan -- differenceless.

In fact, the greatest teaching of Hinduism is that Till one sees any difference in Brahman one is not above fear and death.

Most Hindus however do not abide by this teaching, since it is only for a few.

Hindu dharma also teaches of two natural categories the eater (Agni) and the eaten (Food Soma). But Atman neither eats nor is eaten. The yogi who knows the eater and eaten to be the eternal categories of nature remains as unaffected Atman -- beyond the dictates of Nature.

It is difficult. Yet it is the only Good (Shiva) goal.

Om Namah Shivaya


Note:

A Lion wanted to eat a lamb who was drinking water from a rivulet downstream the Lion. The Lion said "You are polluting my water so I must eat you." The lamb said "I am downstream from you, how can I pollute your water?". The Lion replied "Well it was your mother who polluted my water" and proceeded to do his natural duty that was to eat the Lamb.


President Bush attacked Iraq with similar pretext.



USA dropped atom bombs on Japan but before that Japan was part of a group that was the aggressor.



Muslims are the branded terrorists now. But it was USA who instituted Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. It was creation of state of Israel that has fuelled many acts of hatred.



Pakistan Military nurtured Terrorist groups to foment trouble in Kashmir. And now Pakistan's Benazir dies of their ire. Marriot hotel is destroyed and many more.



As if Shia and Shunni's do not fight and kill each other.
It is difficult to identify a single terrorist group. And such hatred will remain in the ignorance of I-Me-Mine.

The differences that incite hatred and violence are part of nature and not part of ONE Good Brahman. Sanatana Dharma also teaches that the differences and the consequent wars are in the nescience and thus fighting the Asura means knowing the A, U, and M of AUM.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
08 December 2008, 11:20 PM
Opposite ways...one thing is to argue, another thing is the persecution of ALL the followers of the Gods and the destruction of ALL the temples of the Gods...

Tyrannos

Namaste,

This is the problem in maintaining a simple civil debate. Why are you mixing an internet quote of some one's opinion with persecution? Are you sure that the writer of your citation (that I commented upon as similar to the many comments of Hindus on Hindus), has really persecuted someone?


I reiterate:


So, there is a gradation of clarity. As one's value system is cleansed of biases which have been built up over time based on the simple and basic ignorance 'I am this body', one begins to comprehend better Lucifer or Shankara.

Om

Tyrannos
09 December 2008, 10:35 PM
Hail!!!


The differences that incite hatred and violence are part of nature and not part of ONE Good Brahman

So the Nature is not part of the One Brahaman???The ONE Brahaman is not absolute??? The Nature is outside of Brahaman???
MahaDeva is the Yogi Master par excellence; MahaDeva Knows the Brahaman... certainly better than any human being;
and I repeat:
MahaDeva destroys the asuras ... when the asuras threaten the worlds MahaDeva destroys the asuras ...although the asuras are part of Brahaman as All is Brahaman ...
And the Pandava destroy duryodhana and its armies...


Why are you mixing an internet quote of some one's opinion with persecution? Are you sure that the writer of your citation (that I commented upon as similar to the many comments of Hindus on Hindus), has really persecuted someone?
I have already written in the previous posts the sources ...however:

-Valentin Lebedev, head of the Union of Orthodox Citizens of Russia, said: "According to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, Hinduism is considered one of the most anti-Christian cults"

-a leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, Archbishop Nikon

These two "men"do not express personal opinions...they express the "religious truth" of their "religion", then their faithfuls follow them...An archbishop is not a commom cristian, he has no personal views, but he says only what his "god" has taught ...
And again:
no one can say that they do not know their "god" or that they have not learned the "real" teachings of their "religion" : they have direct relationships with their "god"... like any priest of any religion...
If, as many people think, even the followers of the abrahamics religions worship the Brahaman, it is possible that their "god" commands to them in their sacred texts and visions, etc. things like: "All the Gods of the Pagans are demons" (Psalm 95:5) or "Deuteronomy 17:3-7: ...If anyone hath gone and served other Gods, and worshipped them, either the Sun, or Moon, or any of the Host of Heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."?????????????

I hope that the authors of my citation have not already persecuted the followers of Sanatana Dharma...usually one first speaks and then act...
however in the past their "masters" and "saints" have done this:
persecution of ALL the followers of the Gods and the destruction of ALL the temples of the Gods...
Simply in the present they prefer to convert and make proselytizing usually non-violent physically ... but violent mentally ... and the result is the same: How many followers of abrahamic religions living in India today? and fifty years ago? And when other 50 years will have elapsed?


Tyrannos

atanu
10 December 2008, 03:28 AM
Hail!!!

So the Nature is not part of the One Brahaman???The ONE Brahaman is not absolute??? The Nature is outside of Brahaman???


Namaskar Tyrranos.

Nature is not part, but is from Brahman. Brahman is Atman, which is called Shiva in Mandukya Upanishad. The meaning of Shiva is good, beneficial.
So, the nature, even if it be part of Shiva, is good. It cannot be the way you perceive it. The perceptions are obtained with coloured glasses made of many varities of Guna. :)

Om

MahaHrada
10 December 2008, 12:41 PM
Tyrannos you must understand that atanus variety of Hinduism is based on recent interpretations, not every Hindu is similarly inclined.
I will quote for your information an interesting footnote from the blog of Aravind L. , a learned smarta, listen to what he has to say about the actual meaning of the many- one saMbhandha, in the spiritual traditions of bharata dharma.

An important mistake made by Western and their fellow-travelling Hindu scholars is to equate the many-one saMbhandhas seen in several Hindu sectarian traditions as a tendency for monotheism. In fact nothing can be farther from the truth, in fact all these sectarian Hindu streams are as polytheistic as the formal vedic/smArta stream. In making these identifications they are not even subsuming the many deities of the pantheon, they fully accept their functional differentiation and specific roles in the “world of the gods”. By establishing the many-one saMbandha they are seeing their root sectarian deity and/or his mantra/s generating the diversity of the “world of the gods” as emanations or evolutes. This important point, was at the heart of the syncretic religious development in the late Hellenistic Greek world and the classical Roman empire. This resulted in establishment of saMbandhas with deities outside of the IE Greco-Roman tradition to include Egyptian and Middle Eastern deities. This tendency was also operational in the nAstIka matas of the Hindus that spread over Eurasia. An early mechanism of saMbandha, which was prevalent throughout the old heathen world, but persistant in Hindus throughout their history was the macranthropic motif. It is in this important point they differ from the Abrahamistic monotheisms, that exclude and deny the very existence all other deities of the “world of the gods” with extreme vehemence. Hindus and other heathens mistakenly try to view monotheism through their lens of “many-one” saMbandha and are unable to understand their outright exclusion by the monotheist.

Tyrannos
10 December 2008, 07:52 PM
Tyrannos you must understand that atanus variety of Hinduism is based on recent interpretations, not every Hindu is similarly inclined.
I will quote for your information an interesting footnote from the blog of Aravind L. , a learned smarta, listen to what he has to say about the actual meaning of the many- one saMbhandha, in the spiritual traditions of bharata dharma.

An important mistake made by Western and their fellow-travelling Hindu scholars is to equate the many-one saMbhandhas seen in several Hindu sectarian traditions as a tendency for monotheism. In fact nothing can be farther from the truth, in fact all these sectarian Hindu streams are as polytheistic as the formal vedic/smArta stream. In making these identifications they are not even subsuming the many deities of the pantheon, they fully accept their functional differentiation and specific roles in the “world of the gods”. By establishing the many-one saMbandha they are seeing their root sectarian deity and/or his mantra/s generating the diversity of the “world of the gods” as emanations or evolutes. This important point, was at the heart of the syncretic religious development in the late Hellenistic Greek world and the classical Roman empire. This resulted in establishment of saMbandhas with deities outside of the IE Greco-Roman tradition to include Egyptian and Middle Eastern deities. This tendency was also operational in the nAstIka matas of the Hindus that spread over Eurasia. An early mechanism of saMbandha, which was prevalent throughout the old heathen world, but persistant in Hindus throughout their history was the macranthropic motif. It is in this important point they differ from the Abrahamistic monotheisms, that exclude and deny the very existence all other deities of the “world of the gods” with extreme vehemence. Hindus and other heathens mistakenly try to view monotheism through their lens of “many-one” saMbandha and are unable to understand their outright exclusion by the monotheist.
Hail!!!

Thanks, your speech and your quote is very appropriate, and I have opened a new thread on this:
the concept of divinity in the abrahamic religions is completely different from that of Sanatana Dharma, and the same christians priests,etc. state this, as one can read in the quotes that I listed above ...
What are the authors and teachers on which "atanus variety of Hinduism" is based? "recent interpretations"?
I thank you again for the clarification!!!for us all!!!

Great Salutations,
Tyrannos

atanu
10 December 2008, 10:34 PM
-- It is in this important point they differ from the Abrahamistic monotheisms, that exclude and deny the very existence all other deities of the “world of the gods” with extreme vehemence. Hindus and other heathens mistakenly try to view monotheism through their lens of “many-one” saMbandha and are unable to understand their outright exclusion by the monotheist.


Namaste,

Exactly. Such as the inclination to worship only the manifest or the unmanifest.

This so-called smarta, however, forgets to include the so-called outright monotheist, within the sambandha.

Om Namah Shivaya

TatTvamAsi
11 December 2008, 01:27 AM
What an interesting thread!

So a westerner states that Christianity & Islam have plagued the world by wreaking havoc on civilizations and destroying their cultures and religion(s)?

I couldn't agree more! I have stated beforehand that Christianity & Islam are like virulent viruses that wipe out their host and impose their system ruthlessly using both coercion and subterfuge.

However, it is important to note that the whole "Abrahamic" faith base is asuric.Zoroaster is supposed to have been a rishi who was driven out of Aryavarta and started to worship the asuras and demonized the devas. This was the beginning of the attack on Sanatana Dharma. Then, Judaism came forth obviously followed by Christianity & Islam.

I completely agree with Atanu's & Saidevo's point about the arrogance and temerity of westerners who think they "know" more or are more adept at interpreting Sanatana Dharma than Hindus themselves after reading a few books and taking some yoga classes! :rolleyes: Time and time again I have witnessed westerners who take an interest in Sanatana Dharma, which is a great thing, and then quickly turn around and start pontificating on the scriptures as if they were an authority on them! Why, our favorite character on this forum a few months ago (as some would remember), could freely quote verbatim any shloka from any of the Vedas. This naturally grew into a futile 'discussion' with him on any subject. The verbose and didactic nature with which he would 'discuss' topics made it so vexatious that the whole 'discussion' was not; it was a lecture by him! To all westerners who have an interest in Sanatana Dharma--humility is the greatest lesson that can be LEARNED through the scriptures. Quoting verbatim and being equivocal in discussions shows ignorance and arrogance more than anything. I would suggest you people remember the story of Raikva and the King from the Chhandogya Upanishad!

This kind of temerity has lead to absolute lies being published world over about India and her glorious heritage which results in children being brainwashed, which is exacerbated by the media I might add, about Sanatana Dharma. Why? These 'facts' are written by westerners who think they have understood Sanatana Dharma and India who have a hidden agenda to denigrate it or are so steeped in ignorance that they cannot tolerate an emic perspective, which is far more factual, in their midst.

Everyone should read INVADING THE SACRED: An analysis of Hinduism Studies in America by Krishnan Ramaswamy. It clearly describes the global Hinduphobia and effort by the media and those in the Ivory Tower to exert their hegemony on what is published and what is being taught about Hinduism in the west. They are of course hiding under the pseudo-secular mindset and the mantra of 'freedom'.

I do thank Tyrannos and others (especially westerners) for taking an interest in Sanatana Dharma and bringing out the truth about the atrocities committed by the Christians & Muslims around the world in their relatively short 2000 year history.

Subham.

MahaHrada
11 December 2008, 04:05 AM
Hail!!!

Thanks, your speech and your quote is very appropriate, and I have opened a new thread on this:
the concept of divinity in the abrahamic religions is completely different from that of Sanatana Dharma, and the same christians priests,etc. state this, as one can read in the quotes that I listed above ...
What are the authors and teachers on which "atanus variety of Hinduism" is based? "recent interpretations"?
I thank you again for the clarification!!!for us all!!!

Great Salutations,
Tyrannos

Tyrannos my friend, check this link, you will find a lot of interesting information about some of the different spiritual currents in the pre 19th century india, you will see that not all movements within current Hinduism are based on the traditional practices and ideas handed down by way of guru shishya parampara, but are derived from other sources.

Excerpts:

All Religions are Not the Same

The problem with Hindu Universalism, A critique of radical universalism
By Frank Gaetano Morales, Ph.D. (Dharma Pravartaka)

A tragic occurrence in the long history of Hinduism was witnessed throughout the 19th century, the destructive magnitude of which Hindu leaders and scholars today are only beginning to adequately assess and address. This development both altered and weakened Hinduism to such a tremendous degree that Hinduism has not yet even begun to recover. The classical, traditional Hinduism that had been responsible for the continuous development of thousands of years of sophisticated culture, architecture, music, philosophy, ritual and theology came under devastating assault during the 19th century British colonial rule like at no other time in India's history.
.....

During this short span of time in the 19th century, the ancient grandeur and beauty of a classical Hinduism that had stood the test of thousands of years came under direct ideological attack. What makes this period especially tragic is that the main apparatus that the British used in their attempts to destroy traditional Hinduism were the British-educated, spiritually co-opted sons and daughters of Hinduism itself. Seeing traditional Hinduism through the eyes of their British masters, a pandemic wave of 19th-century Anglicized Hindu intellectuals saw it as their solemn duty to "Westernize " and "modernize " traditional Hinduism to make it more palatable to their new European overlords. One of the phenomena that occurred during this historic period was the fabrication of a new movement known as "neo-Hinduism."

.......
In order to fully experience Hinduism in its most spiritually evocative and philosophically compelling form, we must learn to recognize, and reject, the concocted influences of neo-Hinduism that have permeated the mass of Hindu thought today. It is time to rid ourselves of the liberal, Christian-inspired reformism that so deeply prejudiced such individuals as Ram Mohan Roy over a century ago. We must free ourselves from the anti-Hindu dogma of Radical Universalism that has so weakened Hinduism, and re-embrace a classical form of Hinduism that is rooted in the actual scriptures of Hinduism, that has been preserved for thousands of years by the various disciplic successions of legitimate acharyas, and that has stood the test of time. We must celebrate traditional Hinduism. The neo-Hindu importation of Radical Universalism may resonate with many on a purely emotional level, but it remains patently anti-Hindu in its origins, an indefensible proposition philosophically, and a highly destructive doctrine to the further development of Hinduism.


http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2005/7-9/36-49_universal.shtml

MahaHrada
11 December 2008, 04:25 AM
Namaste,

Exactly. Such as the inclination to worship only the manifest or the unmanifest.

This so-called smarta, however, forgets to include the so-called outright monotheist, within the sambandha.

Om Namah Shivaya

empty buckets make the loudest sound. remaining silent when one is without a clue whats going on is what the wise prefer to do.

saidevo
11 December 2008, 04:39 AM
Gandhi committed the mistake of making Nehru the first prime minister of independent India, who was an anti-Hindu, described himself as the last European ruler of India and along with his like-minded colleagues framed the Indian constitution to make India a secular country instead of a Hindu country. Gandhi was unjust in his role of making India secular, after he conceded to Jinnah to carve out Pakistan from Bharatvarsha and make it an Islamic country. The Gandhi-Nehru coterie also failed to deport all (at least most of) the Muslims in India to Pakistan, but instead gave them the choice of remaining in India. The result is that today there are as many Muslims in India as there are in Pakistan, Muslims form the largest miniority group and yet feel 'insecure, weak and exploited' in India, which is today exploited by the pseudo-secular politicians to divide the Hindus more and more.

While the Hindus in daily life treat the mainstream Muslims as brothers ('bhAi' is a common term used to refer to the Muslims), the Muslims do not seem to reciprocate the friendship in equal measure, by which I mean that the Muslims do not condemn the atrocity of terrorism done in the name of their religion as much as Hindus condemn any Hindu retaliation against Muslim violence on them. One example of this is the Godhra incident in Gujarat where everyone only condemns the Hindus for their retaliatory violence and not the train burning incident that spawned this violence.

This article in the Time magazine says that there are there are over 9000 Deobandi madrasahs scattered throughout in India, Afghanistan and Pakistan, many of which are the breeding centres of terrorism. Here is what the article says about the dream of many mainstream Muslims--uniting India and Pakistan under the Islamic rule:

"Still, many South Asian Muslims insist Islam is the one and only force that can bring the subcontinent together and return it to pre-eminence as a single whole. "We [Muslims] were the legal rulers of India, and in 1857 the British took that away from us," says Tarik Jan, a gentle-mannered scholar at Islamabad's Institute of Policy Studies. "In 1947 they should have given that back to the Muslims." Jan is no militant, but he pines for the golden era of the Mughal period in the 1700s and has a fervent desire to see India, Pakistan and Bangladesh reunited under Islamic rule."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650,00.html

Here is the link to a large History Forum that showcases 'The Magnitude Of Muslim Atrocities': http://www.network54.com/Forum/279501/thread/1116181520/1118892585/The+Magnitude+Of+Muslim+Atrocities

The history of Islamic invasion of India, which was the first experience of terrorism in Bharatvarsha, as Tyrannos documents in his posts here, is replete with instances of the Muslim invaders using subterfuge against the war dharma of Hindus. It is well known that the Muslim population grows in larger numbers than the Hindu and that in places they have a 50% majority, they start harassing Hindus in the name of their religion, which has already started happening in some places in Tamilnadu, Kerala and some other states in India.

Hindus should therefore beware and not 'whitewash' Islamic terrorism as Singhi Kaya has emphatically pointed out in another thread. Unless and until Muslims initiate a reform of their religion and the Indian Muslims submit to the nationalism and culture of their ancient land for the simple reason their ancestors were Hindus, we Hindus must be far from being complacent in our outlook on Islam and its followers. This also applies to the Indian Christians in equal measure.

atanu
11 December 2008, 07:00 AM
empty buckets make the loudest sound. remaining silent when one is without a clue whats going on is what the wise prefer to do.

Indeed. :)

saidevo
11 December 2008, 08:09 PM
It is well known that the Muslim population grows in larger numbers than the Hindu and that in places they have a 50% majority, they start harassing Hindus in the name of their religion, which has already started happening in some places in Tamilnadu, Kerala and some other states in India.

Hindus should therefore beware and not 'whitewash' Islamic terrorism as Singhi Kaya has emphatically pointed out in another thread. Unless and until Muslims initiate a reform of their religion and the Indian Muslims submit to the nationalism and culture of their ancient land for the simple reason their ancestors were Hindus, we Hindus must be far from being complacent in our outlook on Islam and its followers. This also applies to the Indian Christians in equal measure.


Dr.Subramanian Swamy, the Hardvard visiting professor of economics, who plays a key role in the defence of Hindu Dharma, has this to say in his article 'The Cure for Terrorism is Virat Brihad Hindutva' (numbering mine) after the recent Islamic terrorism in Mumbai:



1. ...the Saudi Arabian Embassy in the website of its Islamic Affairs Department [www.iad.org] laid down what a "good" Muslim is expected to do. Dr.Steven Stalinsky of the Middle East Media Research Institute[MEMRI] based in Washington DC accessed it and published it in issue No.23, of the Institute newsletter, dated November 26[what irony!] 2003. I have to thank a NRI in US, Dr. Muthuswamy for this reference. In that site it is stated:

"The Muslims are required to raise the banner of Jihad in order to make the Word of Allah supreme in this world, to remove all forms of injustice and oppression, and to defend the Muslims. If Muslims do not take up the sword, the evil tyrants of this earth will be able to continue oppressing the weak and helpless."

The above quote is what in substance is being taught in every madrassa in India, and can be traced back to the sayings of Prophet Mohammed. I can quote a plethora of verses from a Saudi Arabian translated Koran[e.g., verses 8:12, 8:60, and 33:26] which verses justify brutal violence against non-believers. If I delved into Sira and Hadith for more quotes, then I could risk generating much hatred, so it will suffice to say that Islam is not only a theology, but it spans a brutal political ideology which we have to combat sooner or later in realm of ideas.

2. Some may quote back at me verses from Manusmriti about brutality to women and scheduled castes. But as a Hindu I have the liberty to disown these verses[since it is a Smriti] and even to seek to re-write a new smriti as many, for example, Yajnavalkya have done to date. Reform and renaissance is thus inbuilt into Hinduism. But in Islam, the word of the Prophet is final. Sharukh Khan and other gloss artists cannot disown these verses, or say that they would re-write the offensive verses of the Koran. If they do, then they would have to run for their lives as Rushdie and Taslima have had to do. Leave alone re-writing, if anyone draws a cartoon of Prophet Mohammed, there will follow world-wide violent rioting. But if Hussein draws Durga in the most pornographic posture, the Hindus will only groan but not violently rampage.

3. What does it mean in the 21st century for Hindus to stand up ? I mean by that a mental clarity of the Hindus to defend themselves by effective deterrent retaliation, and also an intelligent co-option of other religious groups into the Hindu cultural continuum.

Mental clarity can only come if we are clear about the identity of the nation. What is India? An ancient but continuing civilization or is it a geographical entity incorporated in 1947 by the Indian Independence Act of the British Parliament? What then does it means to say “I am an Indian” ? A mere passport holder of the Republic of India or a descendent of the great seers and visionaries of more than 10,000 years? Obviously our identity should be of a nation of an ancient and continuing Hindu civilization, legatees of great rishis and munis, and a highly sophisticated sanatana philosophy.

4. If Hindu culture is our defining identity then how can we co-opt non-Hindus, especially Muslims and Christians? By persuading them by saam, dhaam, bheda and dand that they acknowledge with pride the truth that their ancestors are Hindus. If they do, it means that they accept Hindu culture and enlightened mores. That is, change of religion does not mean change of culture. Then we should treat such Muslims and Christians as part of our Brihad Hindu family.

Noted author and editor M.J. Akbar calls this identity as of “Blood Brothers”. It is an undeniable fact that Muslims and Christians in India are descendents of Hindus. In a recent article in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, an analysis of genetic samples[DNA] show that Muslims in north India are overwhelmingly of the same DNA as Hindus proving that Muslims here are descendents of Hindus who had been converted to Islam, rather than repositories of foreign DNA deposited by waves of invaders.

Akbar thus asks rhetorically: “When have the Muslims of India gone wrong?” and answers: “When they have forgotten their Indian roots”. How apt ! Enlightened Muslims like Akbar therefore must rise to the occasion and challenge the reactionary religious fundamentalists. That is India is not Darul harab to be trifled with. In a conciliatory atmosphere the minorities would willingly accept this. It is also in their interest to accept this reality. Hindus must persuade by the time- honoured methods Muslims and Christians to accept this and its logical consequences.

5. This identity was not understood by us earlier because of the distorted outlook of Jawarharlal Nehru who occupied the Prime Minister’s chair for seventeen formative years after 1947 and for narrow political ends, had fanned a separatist outlook in Muslims and Christians.

The failure to date, to resolve this Nehru-created crisis, has not only confused the majority but confounded the minorities as well in India. This confusion has deepened with winter migratory birds such as Amartya Sen descending on the campus of the India International Centre to preach inane taxonomies such as “multiple identities”.

There has to be an overriding identity called national identity, and hence we should not be derailed by pedestrian concepts of multiple or sub-identities.

6. Virat Hindutva can be achieved in the first stage by Hindu consolidation, that is achieved by Hindus holding that they are Hindus first and last, by disowning primacy to their caste and regional loyalties. This would require a renaissance in thinking and outlook, that can be fostered only by patient advocacy and intellectual ferment.

For this we need a new History text, and a proper understanding of the distinction between the four varnas [not birth based but by codes of behavior for devolution of power in society] and jati [which is birth based and mostly for marriages]. Just as Valmiki and Vyasa are regarded as Maharshis despite being of different jati from Parasuram, hence Dr. Ambedkar should be called a Maharishi for his sheer depth of knowledge of Indian history. That he had become bitter because of Nehru systematically sidelining him is no reason not to do so.

7. India thus needs a Hindu renaissance today that incorporates modern principles, e.g., of the irrelevance of birth antecedents, fostering gender equality, ensuring equality before law, and accountability for all. It is also essential to integrate the entire Indian society on those principles, irrespective of religion. Uniform civil code for example, is something that the vast majority of Muslim women want, but because this demand has been usurped by those who deny the equality of nationality to the Muslims, hence comes the resistance to a eminently reasonable value. The Muslims think that this is the first step in several to subjugate them or wipe out their identity. But Muslims have quietly accepted Uniform Criminal Code [the IPC] despite that it contradicts the Sharia.

Once being Indian means virat brihad Hindutva, we can tackle terrorism by an effective strategy of defence. What are the components of that strategy is the subject matter of my next column here.

(http://sites.google.com/site/hindunew/dharma)

Tyrannos
11 December 2008, 11:17 PM
What an interesting thread!
So a westerner states that Christianity & Islam have plagued the world by wreaking havoc on civilizations and destroying their cultures and religion(s)?
I couldn't agree more! I have stated beforehand that Christianity & Islam are like virulent viruses that wipe out their host and impose their system ruthlessly using both coercion and subterfuge.
However, it is important to note that the whole "Abrahamic" faith base is asuric.Zoroaster is supposed to have been a rishi who was driven out of Aryavarta and started to worship the asuras and demonized the devas. This was the beginning of the attack on Sanatana Dharma. Then, Judaism came forth obviously followed by Christianity & Islam.
...I do thank Tyrannos and others (especially westerners) for taking an interest in Sanatana Dharma and bringing out the truth about the atrocities committed by the Christians & Muslims around the world in their relatively short 2000 year history.

I thank you very much! Knowing that the Abrahamic religions are adharmics and asurics is a fundamental thing, and what you say about zoroaster is very important: the ancient persia is "historically" the cradle of these adharmic and abrahamic religions, there arose such strange cults ...
When the Persians conquered Egypt in 525 bc, they destroyed temples and carried impious actions, and the same thing happened when they tried to conquer the Hellas(Greece) in the "Persian Wars":
They destroyed the temples of the Gods in the Acropolis of Athens! In Greece, Persians first tried to impose their domination by force, but the Greeks defeated and wipe out the Persians ... then the persians used the subterfuge and corruption ...... but shortly after Alexander the Great was born, the son of the God Amon:
"And after the Egyptian King Nectanebus had gone away from the land of Egypt, all the Egyptians drew near to Hephaestus, the head of the race of the Gods, and besought him with entreaty to show them what had happened to Nectanebus the king of Egypt, and at what place he had arrived. Then Hephaestus promptly sent to them an oracle concerning him by the hands of the priests, saying, “The king of Egypt who has fled, a mighty man and a warrior, but an old man, will after a time bring a new lord, a young man, mightier and more powerful than he...; and he shall traverse the world, and shall subjugate all the enemies of Egypt...”(Alexander Romance)
Indeed, Alexander the Great annihilate the Persians and freed the Earth from their unbearable weight ... from the Nile to Indus ...

The Memory is important: in the modern world the past began in 1900, everything else is considered prehistoric times and is not considered and is easily forgotten ... the human beings forget easily ...

I sincerely thank the Gods for giving me the faith in Sanatana Dharma!

Yes, "relatively short 2000 years history"...but we are not even at the half of kali yuga ... the situation will deteriorate more and more ...



The classical, traditional Hinduism that had been responsible for the continuous development of thousands of years of sophisticated culture, architecture, music, philosophy, ritual and theology came under devastating assault during the 19th century British colonial rule like at no other time in India's history......During this short span of time in the 19th century, the ancient grandeur and beauty of a classical Hinduism that had stood the test of thousands of years came under direct ideological attack. What makes this period especially tragic is that the main apparatus that the British used in their attempts to destroy traditional Hinduism were the British-educated, spiritually co-opted sons and daughters of Hinduism itself. Seeing traditional Hinduism through the eyes of their British masters, a pandemic wave of 19th-century Anglicized Hindu intellectuals saw it as their solemn duty to "Westernize " and "modernize " traditional Hinduism to make it more palatable to their new European overlords. One of the phenomena that occurred during this historic period was the fabrication of a new movement known as "neo-Hinduism." ...
It is time to rid ourselves of the liberal, Christian-inspired reformism...
We must free ourselves from the anti-Hindu dogma of Radical Universalism that has so weakened Hinduism, and re-embrace a classical form of Hinduism that is rooted in the actual scriptures of Hinduism, that has been preserved for thousands of years by the various disciplic successions of legitimate acharyas, and that has stood the test of time. We must celebrate traditional Hinduism. The neo-Hindu importation of Radical Universalism may resonate with many on a purely emotional level, but it remains patently anti-Hindu in its origins, an indefensible proposition philosophically, and a highly destructive doctrine to the further development of Hinduism.

Hail dear friend!!!
The English domination in India was indeed a direct ideological attack: the muslims used the power and subterfuge ...impose religion by force usually gives less results of an ideological corruption. .. and this brings us to another important Warning, as Saidevo remember to us:

After the Abrahamic attack we must speak about the ideological attack:
With the English conquest western ideologies arrive in India:
a mixture of atheism and christianity and liberalism and "modernity"... and we can feel these corruption today...and I say: where are the Kings?
India is said to be the largest democracy in the world ... but it should not be a Kingdom? or an Empire? where are the Kings? The western democracy was born with the French Revolution, from thoughts of Western scholars ... why in India the democracy it is preferred than the Monarchy? The Monarchy was established by the Gods, the democracy is established by men ...
In the West, for example the Royal dynasties of ancient Athens or of ancient Egypt are extinct, but in India?

I will to propose this "end"of the well-known and rightly celebrated "Laws of Hammurabi"( King of Ancient Babylon, in modern Iraq...),great King of the glorious past ...

"LAWS of justice which Hammurabi, the wise king, established.
A righteous law, and pious statute did he teach the land. Hammurabi, the protecting king am I.
I have not withdrawn myself from the men, whom the God Bel gave to me, the rule over whom the God Marduk gave to me, I was not negligent, but I made them a peaceful abiding-place.
I expounded all great difficulties, I made the light shine upon them. With the mighty weapons which Zamama and Ishtar(the Great Goddess) entrusted to me, with the keen vision with which the God Ea endowed me, with the wisdom that Marduk gave me, I have uprooted the enemy above and below (in north and south), subdued the earth, brought prosperity to the land, guaranteed security to the inhabitants in their homes; a disturber was not permitted.
The great gods have called me, I am the salvation-bearing shepherd, whose staff is straight, the good shadow that is spread over my city; on my breast I cherish the inhabitants of the land of Sumer and Akkad; in my shelter I have let them repose in peace; in my deep wisdom have I enclosed them. That the strong might not injure the weak, in order to protect the widows and orphans, I have in Babylon the city where Anu and Bel raise high their head, in E-Sagil, the Temple, whose foundations stand firm as heaven and earth, in order to bespeak justice in the land, to settle all disputes, and heal all injuries, set up these my precious words, written upon my memorial stone, before the image of me, as king of righteousness.
The king who ruleth among the kings of the cities am I. My words are well considered; there is no wisdom like unto mine. By the command of Shamash(the Sun-God), the great judge of heaven and earth, let righteousness go forth in the land: by the order of Marduk, my lord, let no destruction befall my monument. In E-Sagil, which I love, let my name be ever repeated; let the oppressed, who has a case at law, come and stand before this my image as king of righteousness; let him read the inscription, and understand my precious words: the inscription will explain his case to him; he will find out what is just, and his heart will be glad, so that he will say:
"Hammurabi is a ruler, who is as a father to his subjects, who holds the words of Marduk in reverence, who has achieved conquest for Marduk over the north and south, who rejoices the heart of Marduk, his lord, who has bestowed benefits for ever and ever on his subjects, and has established order in the land."
When he reads the record, let him pray with full heart to Marduk, my lord, and Zarpanit, my lady; and then shall the protecting deities and the gods, who frequent E-Sagil, graciously grant the desires daily presented before Marduk, my lord, and Zarpanit, my lady.
In future time, through all coming generations, let the king, who may be in the land, observe the words of righteousness which I have written on my monument; let him not alter the law of the land which I have given, the edicts which I have enacted; my monument let him not mar. If such a ruler have wisdom, and be able to keep his land in order, he shall observe the words which I have written in this inscription; the rule, statute, and law of the land which I have given; the decisions which I have made will this inscription show him; let him rule his subjects accordingly, speak justice to them, give right decisions, root out the miscreants and criminals from this land, and grant prosperity to his subjects.
Hammurabi, the king of righteousness, on whom Shamash has conferred right (or law) am I. My words are well considered; my deeds are not equaled; to bring low those that were high; to humble the proud, to expel insolence. If a succeeding ruler considers my words, which I have written in this my inscription, if he do not annul my law, nor corrupt my words, nor change my monument, then may Shamash lengthen that king's reign, as he has that of me, the king of righteousness, that he may reign in righteousness over his subjects.
If this ruler do not esteem my words, which I have written in my inscription, if he despise my curses, and fear not the curse of God, if he destroy the law which I have given, corrupt my words, change my monument, efface my name, write his name there, or on account of the curses commission another so to do, that man, whether king or ruler, patesi, or commoner, no matter what he be, may the great God (Anu), the Father of the gods, who has ordered my rule, withdraw from him the glory of royalty, break his scepter, curse his destiny.
May Bel, the lord, who fixeth destiny, whose command can not be altered, who has made my kingdom great, order a rebellion which his hand can not control; may he let the wind of the overthrow of his habitation blow, may he ordain the years of his rule in groaning, years of scarcity, years of famine, darkness without light, death with seeing eyes be fated to him; may he (Bel) order with his potent mouth the destruction of his city, the dispersion of his subjects, the cutting off of his rule, the removal of his name and memory from the land.
May Belit, the great Mother, whose command is potent in E-Kur (the Babylonian Olympus), the Mistress, who harkens graciously to my petitions, in the seat of judgment and decision (where Bel fixes destiny), turn his affairs evil before Bel, and put the devastation of his land, the destruction of his subjects, the pouring out of his life like water into the mouth of King Bel.
May Ea, the great ruler, whose fated decrees come to pass, the thinker of the gods, the omniscient, who maketh long the days of my life, withdraw understanding and wisdom from him, lead him to forgetfulness, shut up his rivers at their sources, and not allow corn or sustenance for man to grow in his land.
May Shamash, the great Judge of heaven and earth, who supporteth all means of livelihood, Lord of life-courage, shatter his dominion, annul his law, destroy his way, make vain the march of his troops, send him in his visions forecasts of the uprooting of the foundations of his throne and of the destruction of his land. May the condemnation of Shamash overtake him forthwith; may he be deprived of water above among the living, and his spirit below in the earth.
May Sin (the Moon-god), the Lord of Heaven, the divine father, whose crescent gives light among the gods, take away the crown and regal throne from him; may he put upon him heavy guilt, great decay, that nothing may be lower than he. May he destine him as fated, days, months and years of dominion filled with sighing and tears, increase of the burden of dominion, a life that is like unto death.
May Adad, the lord of fruitfulness, ruler of heaven and earth, my helper, withhold from him rain from heaven, and the flood of water from the springs, destroying his land by famine and want; may he rage mightily over his city, and make his land into flood-hills (heaps of ruined cities).
May Zamama, the great warrior, the first-born son of E-Kur, who goeth at my right hand, shatter his weapons on the field of battle, turn day into night for him, and let his foe triumph over him.
May Ishtar, the goddess of fighting and war, who unfetters my weapons, my gracious protecting spirit, who loveth my dominion, curse his kingdom in her angry heart; in her great wrath, change his grace into evil, and shatter his weapons on the place of fighting and war. May she create disorder and sedition for him, strike down his warriors, that the earth may drink their blood, and throw down the piles of corpses of his warriors on the field; may she not grant him a life of mercy, deliver him into the hands of his enemies, and imprison him in the land of his enemies.
May Nergal, the might among the gods, whose contest is irresistible, who grants me victory, in his great might burn up his subjects like a slender reedstalk, cut off his limbs with his mighty weapons, and shatter him like an earthen image.
May Nin-tu, the sublime mistress of the lands, the fruitful mother, deny him a son, vouchsafe him no name, give him no successor among men. May Nin-karak, the daughter of Anu, who adjudges grace to me, cause to come upon his members in E-kur high fever, severe wounds, that can not be healed, whose nature the physician does not understand, which he can not treat with dressing, which, like the bite of death, can not be removed, until they have sapped away his life.
May he lament the loss of his life-power, and may the great gods of heaven and earth, the Anunaki, altogether inflict a curse and evil upon the confines of the temple, the walls of this E-barra (the Sun temple of Sippara), upon his dominion, his land, his warriors, his subjects, and his troops. May Bel curse him with the potent curses of his mouth that can not be altered, and may they come upon him forthwith."

Hail!!!
Tyrannos

saidevo
14 December 2008, 07:05 AM
Here is an interesting observation about Hindu unity, or the perceived lack of it:

Latin Catholic will not enter to Syrian catholic church,
these two will not enter to Marthoma church,
these three will not enter to penthacost church,
these four will not enter to Salvation army church,
these five will not enter to 7th day Adventist church,
these six will not enter to orthodox church,
these seven will not enter to Jacobite church,

…..like this there are 146 castes in Kerala alone for Christianity, each will never share their churches for Christians! Wonderful, One Christ, One Bible, One Jehova….What a unity!

Among Muslims,

Shia and Sunni kill each other in all the Muslim countries.
The religious riot in Muslim countries is always between these two.

The Shia will not go to Sunni mosque,
these two will not go to Ahamadiya mosque,
these three will not go to Sufi mosque,
these four will not go to Mujahiddin mosque

….like this it appears there are 13 castes in among Muslims, Killing / bombing/conquering/ massacring/… each other!

The American attack to the Muslim land of Iraq is fully supported by all the Muslim countries surrounding Iraq

One Allah, One Quran, One Nebi….! Great unity!

For Hindus 1280 books, 10,000 commentaries, more than one lakh sub commentaries for these foundation books, 330 million gods, variety of aacharas, thousands of Rishies, hundreds of languages,

...still everyone goes to the SAME TEMPLE…whether unity is for Hindus or in others and never quarreled each other for the last ten thousand years in the name of religion.

http://www.outlookindia.com/rants.asp?date=10/23/2008&type=normal&pn=5

Read this with the comment "Hindus can never be united. Creating Castes is the biggest sin... " and the author's reply to it here:

http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/the-cure-for-terrorism-is-virat-brihad-hindutva-part-i/#comments

Tyrannos
16 December 2008, 10:41 PM
Hail!!!

No one says anything about the Kings?:(
No comment about the "Laws of Hammurabi"?:confused:

However, in order to continue the review of Warnings for the Hindu Dharma, this is another:
This is a quote from the book "Thus Spake Zarathustra"(obviously I hope that everyone knows that the Zarathustra of Nietzsche has nothing to do with the persian asuric zoroaster...), by Friedrich Nietzsche, the devotee of Dionysos; I hope that everybody knows him and his works.;)








Nietzsche contrasts the "Übermensch"("Overman") with the "Last Man", who appears as the man with the degraded "goal" that unified the christian(and abrahamitic), liberal, democratic, bourgeois, socialist, and communist programs and systems:"the Last Man" now is the modern man...
Be careful not to be such "Last men", or care not to become such "Last men"...

"When Zarathustra was thirty years old, he left his home and the lake of his home, and went into the mountains. There he enjoyed his spirit and solitude, and for ten years did not weary of it. But at last his heart changed,—and rising one morning with the rosy dawn, he went before the sun, and spake thus unto it:
Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for whom thou shinest!
For ten years hast thou climbed hither unto my cave: thou wouldst have wearied of thy light and of the journey, had it not been for me, mine eagle, and my serpent.
But we awaited thee every morning, took from thee thine overflow and blessed thee for it.
Lo! I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it.
I would fain bestow and distribute, until the wise have once more become joyous in their folly, and the poor happy in their riches.
Therefore must I descend into the deep: as thou doest in the evening, when thou goest behind the sea, and givest light also to the nether-world, thou exuberant star!
Like thee must I go down, as men say, to whom I shall descend.
Bless me, then, thou tranquil eye, that canst behold even the greatest happiness without envy!
Bless the cup that is about to overflow, that the water may flow golden out of it, and carry everywhere the reflection of thy bliss!
Lo! This cup is again going to empty itself, and Zarathustra is again going to be a man.
Thus began Zarathustra's down-going.
Zarathustra went down the mountain alone, no one meeting him. When he entered the forest, however, there suddenly stood before him an old man, who had left his holy cot to seek roots. And thus spake the old man to Zarathustra:
"No stranger to me is this wanderer: many years ago passed he by. Zarathustra he was called; but he hath altered.
Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the mountains: wilt thou now carry thy fire into the valleys? Fearest thou not the incendiary's doom?
Yea, I recognise Zarathustra. Pure is his eye, and no loathing lurketh about his mouth. Goeth he not along like a dancer?
Altered is Zarathustra; a child hath Zarathustra become; an awakened one is Zarathustra: what wilt thou do in the land of the sleepers?
As in the sea hast thou lived in solitude, and it hath borne thee up. Alas, wilt thou now go ashore? Alas, wilt thou again drag thy body thyself?"
Zarathustra answered: "I love mankind."
"Why," said the saint, "did I go into the forest and the desert? Was it not because I loved men far too well?
Now I love God: men, I do not love. Man is a thing too imperfect for me. Love to man would be fatal to me."
Zarathustra answered: "What spake I of love! I am bringing gifts unto men."
"Give them nothing," said the saint. "Take rather part of their load, and carry it along with them—that will be most agreeable unto them: if only it be agreeable unto thee!
If, however, thou wilt give unto them, give them no more than an alms, and let them also beg for it!"
"No," replied Zarathustra, "I give no alms. I am not poor enough for that."
The saint laughed at Zarathustra, and spake thus: "Then see to it that they accept thy treasures! They are distrustful of anchorites, and do not believe that we come with gifts.
The fall of our footsteps ringeth too hollow through their streets. And just as at night, when they are in bed and hear a man abroad long before sunrise, so they ask themselves concerning us: Where goeth the thief?
Go not to men, but stay in the forest! Go rather to the animals! Why not be like me—a bear amongst bears, a bird amongst birds?" ...("Thus Spake Zarathustra.A Book for All and None.")
***But because he loves mankind, he decided to return to them: When Zarathustra arrived at the nearest town which adjoineth the forest, he found many people and starts to speak. But they do not listen, they do not understand...***

"When Zarathustra had spoken these words, he again looked at the people, and was silent. "There they stand," said he to his heart; "there they laugh: they understand me not; I am not the mouth for these ears.
Must one first batter their ears, that they may learn to hear with their eyes? Must one clatter like kettledrums and penitential preachers? Or do they only believe the stammerer?
They have something whereof they are proud. What do they call it, that which maketh them proud? Culture, they call it; it distinguisheth them from the goatherds.
They dislike, therefore, to hear of 'contempt' of themselves. So I will appeal to their pride.
I will speak unto them of the most contemptible thing: that, however, is THE LAST MAN!"
And thus spake Zarathustra unto the people:
It is time for man to fix his goal. It is time for man to plant the germ of his highest hope.
Still is his soil rich enough for it. But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow thereon.
Alas! there cometh the time when man will no longer launch the arrow of his longing beyond man—and the string of his bow will have unlearned to whizz!
I tell you: one must still have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: ye have still chaos in you.
Alas! There cometh the time when man will no longer give birth to any star. Alas! There cometh the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself.
Lo! I show you THE LAST MAN.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?"—so asketh the last man and blinketh.
The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest.
"We have discovered happiness"—say the last men, and blink thereby.
They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loveth one's neighbour and rubbeth against him; for one needeth warmth.
Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbleth over stones or men!
A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death.
One still worketh, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.
One no longer becometh poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wanteth to rule? Who still wanteth to obey? Both are too burdensome.
No shepherd, and one herd! Every one wanteth the same; every one is equal: he who hath other sentiments goeth voluntarily into the madhouse.
"Formerly all the world was insane,"—say the subtlest of them, and blink thereby.
They are clever and know all that hath happened: so there is no end to their raillery. People still fall out, but are soon reconciled—otherwise it spoileth their stomachs.
They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.
"We have discovered happiness,"—say the last men, and blink thereby.—
And here ended the first discourse of Zarathustra, which is also called "The Prologue": for at this point the shouting and mirth of the multitude interrupted him. "Give us this last man, O Zarathustra,"—they called out—"make us into these last men! Then will we make thee a present of the Übermensch(Overman)!" And all the people exulted and smacked their lips. Zarathustra, however, turned sad, and said to his heart:
"They understand me not: I am not the mouth for these ears.
Too long, perhaps, have I lived in the mountains; too much have I hearkened unto the brooks and trees: now do I speak unto them as unto the goatherds.
Calm is my soul, and clear, like the mountains in the morning. But they think me cold, and a mocker with terrible jests.
And now do they look at me and laugh: and while they laugh they hate me too. There is ice in their laughter." ("Thus Spake Zarathustra.A Book for All and None.")


Tyrannos

satay
16 December 2008, 11:16 PM
Namaskar Tyrannos,


Hail!!!

No one says anything about the Kings?:(
No comment about the "Laws of Hammurabi"?:confused:


I haven't read the whole thread but I don't understand your intent of posting large dumps of information. I personally find most of the posts in this thread too long to read.

For example, in your last post, I fail to see what Zarathustra has anything to do with Hindu Dharma or the supposed threat to it. In fact, why this dump of information is pasted here on Hindu Dharma Forums? I have no idea.

I think you might get better responses if you actually insert your comments on the point that you are trying to make and then provide a link to supporting documentation instead of dumping large underlined texts.

Perhaps you may summarise your view point in some bullet points such as :
Who is threating the Hindu Dharma in your opinion?
What specifically is the threat?
How is the threat actually being made?
Who specifically is affected by this threat?
Why must Hindus be concerned?
How should they deal with the supposed threat?
What are your opinions, solutions, comments on the whole situation?

Just a gentle suggestion.

Thanks,

Tyrannos
17 December 2008, 10:13 AM
Hail!!!


I don't understand your intent of posting large dumps of information. I personally find most of the posts in this thread too long to read.

I have always written that I am doing a brief summary of what we should say and remember.


...For example, in your last post, I fail to see what Zarathustra has anything to do with Hindu Dharma or the supposed threat to it.
Nietzsche talks about the "Last Man",
who appears as the man with the degraded "goal" that unified the christian(and abrahamitic), liberal, democratic, bourgeois, socialist, and communist programs and systems:"the Last Man" now is the modern man...
"The Last Man" is a threat to Sanatana Dharma because its ideologies are contrary to Sanatana Dharma. In India there are no christians (and abrahamitics), liberals, democratics, bourgeois, socialists, and communists? These ideologies are faithful to the Dharma and to the Laws of Manu, and to the Laws of the other Sage-legislators? Why the Kings no longer govern India?


...provide a link to supporting documentation instead of dumping large underlined texts
Often the quotes that I quote are from my books, not from the Internet ... and despite the advances in modern technology would be very difficult to provide a link to my books ...


Who is threating the Hindu Dharma in your opinion?
What specifically is the threat?
-The threat to Sanatana Dharma is the adharma in all his manifestations: the adharmic religions, the adharmic ideologies, etc. Anything (and anyone) that is contrary to the Dharma: destroy the Temples of the Gods, persecute and kill the faithfuls of the Gods, the ideological attack of the modern human ideologies, etc.etc ....


How is the threat actually being made?
Who specifically is affected by this threat?
Why must Hindus be concerned?
Actually the threat is twofold:
-the ideological attack against the Sanatana Dharma: this is the threat that comes from the modern Western world ... the world of "the last men":

During this short span of time in the 19th century, the ancient grandeur and beauty of a classical Hinduism that had stood the test of thousands of years came under direct ideological attack. What makes this period especially tragic is that the main apparatus that the British used in their attempts to destroy traditional Hinduism were the British-educated, spiritually co-opted sons and daughters of Hinduism itself. Seeing traditional Hinduism through the eyes of their British masters, a pandemic wave of 19th-century Anglicized Hindu intellectuals saw it as their solemn duty to "Westernize " and "modernize " traditional Hinduism to make it more palatable to their new European overlords. One of the phenomena that occurred during this historic period was the fabrication of a new movement known as "neo-Hinduism." ...
-The other threat to Sanatana Dharma then comes from the muslims: they destroy the temples of the Gods, etc., they commit acts of terrorism, etc.: they follow adharma and kali. I think that their "holy war" is a threat enough.
And also:

...It is well known that the Muslim population grows in larger numbers than the Hindu and that in places they have a 50% majority, they start harassing Hindus in the name of their religion, which has already started happening in some places in Tamilnadu, Kerala and some other states in India.
An example: in Italy in 2001 there were 351 mosques, in 2006 696 mosques; in Italy now there are 158 koranic schools ...
Democracy is based solely on the majority: as the muslim population grows large in number, they sooner or later will have the majority and then they will have the political power... and this can also happen in India:how many muslims living in India today? and fifty years ago? And when other 50 years will have elapsed?


How should they deal with the supposed threat?
What are your opinions, solutions, comments on the whole situation?
The Hindu Religion is one of the few if not the only religion faithful to the Dharma (Sanatana Dharma is the name of the Hindu Religion ...) still remained on the Earth: the followers of the other religions faithful to the Dharma have been killed or have been corrupted by the false and misleading "religions" by the followers of the abrahamic religions ... this is a historical fact: the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, the Ancient Romans, the Ancient Greeks, the Incas, the Mayas, the Celts, the ancient Babylonians, the Assyrians, etc.etc.are all "disappeared" and most of their Ancient Wisdom is now lost because it was destroyed ... when the sacred Indian texts speak of the kali age they tell us that this will happen all over the world, including India: ...
"Thereafter, at the end of Kali-yuga, when there exist no topics on the subject of God, even at the residences of saints and respected gentlemen of the three higher castes, and when the power of government is transferred to the hands of ministers elected from the lowborn sudra class or those less than them, and when nothing is known of the techniques of sacrifice, even by word, at that time the Lord will appear as the Supreme Chastiser." Srimad Bhagavatam.
So I think it is very important to understand the current situation, at least be aware of this.
And also:

In order to fully experience Hinduism in its most spiritually evocative and philosophically compelling form, we must learn to recognize, and reject, the concocted influences of neo-Hinduism that have permeated the mass of Hindu thought today. It is time to rid ourselves of the liberal, Christian-inspired reformism that so deeply prejudiced such individuals as Ram Mohan Roy over a century ago. We must free ourselves from the anti-Hindu dogma of Radical Universalism that has so weakened Hinduism, and re-embrace a classical form of Hinduism that is rooted in the actual scriptures of Hinduism, that has been preserved for thousands of years by the various disciplic successions of legitimate acharyas, and that has stood the test of time. We must celebrate traditional Hinduism.

Hail!!!
Tyrannos

atanu
21 December 2008, 11:40 AM
Hail!!!


Nietzsche talks about the "Last Man",
"The Last Man" is a threat to Sanatana Dharma because its ideologies are contrary to Sanatana Dharma.

How Nietzsche's superman is a threat? If a poetic vision is going to be a threat to sanatana dharma then -----?

Friedrich Nietzsche presented his vision of a new human being as the dominant figure of a radically transformed society in the prose poem 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra, 1896. This new "superman", would embody the best qualities of the creative individual, who is the highest expression of the "will to power," the force that produces all human endeavor.

The Superhuman of Nietzsche may very well be our own Vishnu-Indra, who embodies the highest expression of the "will to power". Similar concept but using a different term Superconscious' has also been advanced by Shri Aurobindo. Man or the mundane consciousness that we represent is indeed a raft for going over to the other side. The excerpt below shows how Man must sacrifice his baser instincts and needs towards his own so-called downfall, so that the Super Human may prevail. I do not see anything antithetical to sanatana dharma in Thus Spake Zarathustra.

Excerpt (Nietzsche, Friedrich. Thus Spoke Zarathustra. Translated by Hollingdale, R. J. Penguin Books).


But Zarathustra looked at the people and marvelled. Then he spoke thus:


Man is a rope, fastened between animal and Superman—a rope over an abyss.


A dangerous going-across, a dangerous wayfaring, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous shuddering and staying-still.


What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal; what can be loved in man is that he is a going-across and a down-going.


I love those who do not know how to live except their lives be a down-going, for they are those who are going across.


I love the great despisers, for they are the great venerators and arrows of longing for the other bank.


I love those who do not first seek beyond the stars for reasons to go down and to be sacrifices: but who sacrifice themselves to the earth, that the earth may one day belong to the Superman.


I love him who lives for knowledge and who wants knowledge that one day the Superman may live. And thus he wills his own downfall.


I love him who works and invents that he may build a house for the Superman and prepare earth, animals, and plants for him: for thus he wills his own downfall.


I love him who loves his virtue: for virtue is will to downfall and an arrow of longing.


I love him who keeps back no drop of spirit for himself, but wants to be the spirit of his virtue entirely: thus he steps as spirit over the bridge.
--------------
I love him who justifies the men of the future and redeems the men of the past: for he wants to perish by the men of the present.


I love him who chastises his God because he loves his God: for he must perish by the anger of his God.


I love him whose soul is deep even in its ability to be wounded, and whom even a little thing can destroy: thus he is glad to go over the bridge.


I love him whose soul is overfull, so that he forgets himself and all things are in him: thus all things become his downfall.


I love him who is of a free spirit and a free heart: thus his head is only the bowels of his heart, but his heart drives him to his downfall.


I love all those who are like heavy drops falling singly from the dark cloud that hangs over mankind: they prophesy the coming of the lightning and as prophets they perish.


Behold, I am a prophet of the lightning and a heavy drop from the cloud: but this lightning is called Superman.Can anyone see anything that Nietzsche is a threat to Hindu Dharma? In fact many philosophers who have loved Upanishads also loved Nietzsche.




In India there are no christians (and abrahamitics), liberals, democratics, bourgeois, socialists, and communists? These ideologies are faithful to the Dharma and to the Laws of Manu, and to the Laws of the other Sage-legislators? Why the Kings no longer govern India?

Only Tyrannos knows why, since Satyam and Ritam must have fallen asleep.

Om

atanu
21 December 2008, 08:23 PM
Those who have faith in God and Sanatana Dharma believe that aggression, hatred, and violence are not associated with Man, or a race or a country. It is associated with Gunas, when devoid of Satya. A mixture of Tamo and Rajo together make for hatred. Actually believers who do not fully believe in God's omnipotence and omniscience, hate all dharma (faith) except their own, hate mankind and blame and abuse the faithful as coward and racist. That the family of Shiva is the highest path and goal is not at all comprehensible to them. In this Kula, there is extreme diversity --Lions, Serpents, Peacocks, Rats and Men, Women etc. etc. living as immortals in peace. Only in Shiva Kula this is possible.

Agression, hatred and war have swept across different places at different times and it is linked with mass discontentment often apparently whipped up by some instrument or other -- those who have come to be known as Dictators etc. Yet these dictators and mass murderers were also mere puppets at the hands of Kala. In our own lifetime (and in near memory), we have seen prolonged war in Europe in 18th and 19th centuries. In 20th and 21st century, the mood has shifted to West and Middle Asia.

The Superman is God Himself. Man is a rope, fastened between animal and Superman—a rope over an abyss.

Namah Namah

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
22 December 2008, 07:02 AM
Some samples of Nietzsche's thoughts on Christianity.

The persecutor of God. -- Paul thought up the idea and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:4-6;&version=9;): heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God.

from Nietzsche's The Wanderer and his Shadow, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

The everyday Christian. -- If the Christian dogmas of a revengeful God (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:4-5%2CRevelation+14:6-11%2CRevelation+16%2CRevelation+19:11-18%2C&version=9;), universal sinfulness (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:9-23;&version=9;), election by divine grace (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:5-6;&version=9;) and the danger of eternal damnation (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:11-15;&version=9;) were true, it would be a sign of weak-mindedness and lack of character not to become a priest, apostle or hermit and, in fear and trembling, to work solely on one's own salvation; it would be senseless to lose sight of ones eternal advantage for the sake of temporal comfort. If we may assume that these things are at any rate believed true, then the everyday Christian cuts a miserable figure; he is a man who really cannot count to three, and who precisely on account of his spiritual imbecility does not deserve to be punished so harshly as Christianity promises to punish him.
from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.116, R.J. Hollingdale transl.


The despairing.-- Christianity possesses the hunters instinct for all those who can by one means or another be brought to despair - of which only a portion of mankind is capable. It is constantly on their track, it lies in wait for them. Pascal attempted the experiment of seeing whether, with the aid of the most incisive knowledge, everyone could not be brought to despair: the experiment miscarried, to his twofold despair.
from Nietzsche's Daybreak,s. 64, R.J. Hollingdale transl.



---------------------

If one were to go through Nietzsche's thoughts on the Christian teachers then and then one can be properly armed against the sad preachers. I note that I do not subscribe to Nietzsche's views as some of his growing time ideas collide with Hinduism, but present his ideas here as evidence that he was the most fiery critic of the so-called Christianity. However, Nietzsche and Schopenhauer were closest to Hindu thoughts though they differed in their basic premise of "What a Man Wants?"

Schopenhauer held that man wants to live (forever) and Nietzsche argued that man wants "will to power". Probably Nietzsche forgot that a living one only can will.

More of Nietzsche on Christianity can be read here:

http://www.pitt.edu/~wbcurry/nietzsche.html


His best is:

Man and things.-- Why does man not see things? He is himself standing in the way: he conceals things.
from Nietzsche's Daybreak, s. 483, R.J. Hollingdale transl


Om Namah Shivaya

Tyrannos
22 December 2008, 07:46 AM
Hail!!!


How Nietzsche's superman is a threat? If a poetic vision is going to be a threat to sanatana dharma then -----?
Friedrich Nietzsche presented his vision of a new human being as the dominant figure of a radically transformed society in the prose poem 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra, 1896. This new "superman", would embody the best qualities of the creative individual, who is the highest expression of the "will to power," the force that produces all human endeavor.
The Superhuman of Nietzsche may very well be our own Vishnu-Indra, who embodies the highest expression of the "will to power". Similar concept but using a different term Superconscious' has also been advanced by Shri Aurobindo. Man or the mundane consciousness that we represent is indeed a raft for going over to the other side. The excerpt below shows how Man must sacrifice his baser instincts and needs towards his own so-called downfall, so that the Super Human may prevail. I do not see anything antithetical to sanatana dharma in Thus Spake Zarathustra.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Well, I think that you have not read carefully or you did not understand my post, so I repeat:

Nietzsche contrasts the "Übermensch"("Overman") with the "Last Man", who appears as the man with the degraded "goal" that unified the christian(and abrahamitic), liberal, democratic, bourgeois, socialist, and communist programs and systems:"the Last Man" now is the modern man...
Be careful not to be such "Last men", or care not to become such "Last men"


...And here ended the first discourse of Zarathustra, which is also called "The Prologue": for at this point the shouting and mirth of the multitude interrupted him. "Give us this last man, O Zarathustra,"—they called out—"make us into these last men! Then will we make thee a present of the Übermensch(Overman)!" And all the people exulted and smacked their lips. Zarathustra, however, turned sad, and said to his heart:
"They understand me not: I am not the mouth for these ears..


Dear Atanu,
The "Last man" and the "Overman" are two completely different and opposite figures: if someone confuses the "last man" with the "Overman" this is something really strange and absurd, or at least mean that Nietzsche is not understood...
We need to reread my quotes of Nietzsche ...


Only Tyrannos knows why, since Satyam and Ritam must have fallen asleep

:headscratch: What does this mean?:headscratch:

Still no answer to this historical question:

Why the Kings no longer govern India?

India is said to be the largest democracy in the world ... but it should not be a Kingdom? or an Empire? where are the Kings? The western democracy was born with the French Revolution, from thoughts of Western scholars ... why in India the democracy it is preferred than the Monarchy? The Monarchy was established by the Gods, the democracy is established by men ...
In the West, for example the Royal dynasties of ancient Athens or of ancient Egypt are extinct, but in India?

Tyrannos

atanu
22 December 2008, 08:17 AM
Hail!!!

Well, I think that you have not read carefully or you did not understand my post, so I repeat:

Dear Atanu,
The "Last man" and the "Overman" are two completely different and opposite figures: if someone confuses the "last man" with the "Overman" this is something really strange and absurd, or at least mean that Nietzsche is not understood...
We need to reread my quotes of Nietzsche ...

Tyrannos

Dear Tyrannos,

I have read your post more carefully than you wrote it.

Nietzsche does not say of the last man what you put into his writing. And you are unable to comprehend that to attain Super Man status, the Last Man's contentment has to be attained first. Else, the term Last Man would be unsustainable.

Nietzsche failed totally and died mad eventually because he could not synthesize that the Last Man and the Super Man could not be different. He was too much taken up with individual will and could not integrate his concepts with the will of the single primeval purusha. Schopenhauer was evidently more successful, who saw the world itself as the Will -- of the Primeval entity (who has to be the Super Man).


Last man's contentment gives over to Superman, who creates. This is nothing but rehashed Veda -- coloured with intellectualism of a thinker.

You should know that Rudra himself is such Last Man. The Universe goes into Him. And Rudra Himself is the Purusha, who having burned up all that was before is swatantra in His creation.

He is the First (Super) Man and the Last (Super) Man. For Shiva lovers the last and first does mean nothing.

Om Namah Shivaya.

atanu
22 December 2008, 08:21 AM
The last man, Nietzsche predicted, would be one response to
nihilism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism). But the full implications of the death of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead) had yet to unfold. As he said, "the event itself is far too great, too distant, too remote from the multitude's capacity for comprehension even for the tidings of it to be thought of having arrived as yet ---

Dear Tyrannos,

It is simply beyond your comprehesion. You are simply trying to mold Nietzsche to your bias. The Last Man is the Man who goes through Pralaya and becomes the Super First Man.

The following quote summarises Nietzsche's concept of the Last and the First Man.


In Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Nietzsche differentiates between the life-affirmation of the overman and the stagnation and contentment of the last man. The concept of self-overcoming is very important in understanding the difference in the two, because the overman feels the need to overcome himself all of the time. He is never content with what he is. The last man is incapable of overcoming what he is because he sees no need to. He is happy.


This relationship may also indicate just how Nietzsche thinks about the concept of God as a perfect being that has everything. God as defined in this way, can never grow. God cannot feel contempt. God is perfect. Man is imperfect and man can change and grow. It is clear that Nietzsche values man more than God (if God existed) because man can continually overcome himself.


I have said that Nietzsche failed and died mad, possibly he could not unshakebly believe in Sanatana Dharma that there is a unchangeable reservoir of consciousness called Atman or ocean or Brahman or whatever that supports the will of the man who would be the last and also the man who would be the first.

Nietzsche as Descartes also, placed emphasis solely on mind but did not know what its source was. Hinduism indeed speaks of Brahman, whose desires have all been fulfilled, who is unchangeable but supports the Time, the Will and the Mind.


Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
22 December 2008, 09:09 AM
Tyrannos wrote (copying from Wiki but changing things as per his sweet will):


Nietzsche contrasts the "Übermensch"("Overman") with the "Last Man", who appears as the man with the degraded "goal" that unified the christian(and abrahamitic), liberal, democratic, bourgeois, socialist, and communist programs and systems:"the Last Man" now is the modern man...
Be careful not to be such "Last men", or care not to become such "Last men"...




From Wiki

Another concept important to an understanding of Nietzsche's thought is the Übermensch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch) (variously translated – often without regard to the gender-neutrality of the German word Mensch, which means "person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person)" – as superman, superhuman, or overman). Nietzsche contrasts the Übermensch with the Last Man, who appears as an exaggerated version of the degraded "goal" that unified the liberal democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy), bourgeois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois), socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism), and communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) social and political programs.[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-46) The plural Übermenschen never appears in Nietzsche's writings, which sharply contrasts with Nazi interpretations of his corpus.


Michael Tanner suggests Übermensch means the man who lives above and beyond pleasure and suffering, treating both circumstances equally "because joy and suffering are ... inseparable."



It is critique of Nazi way of understanding Nietzsche's theory and applying it in a degraded violent way. Nietzsche never mentioned Last Men.

And the Last Man can only be the Super Man.

Om

saidevo
22 December 2008, 09:16 AM
I am glad and grateful to note that while we are hotly debating Vedatanta here, the roots of our Sanatana Dharma are going deeper than is apparent among the Hindu grass roots. Isn't the girl, the heroine of this article, a greater Vedantin than any of us consider ourselves to be?

Kalaivani..a short story
http://srajahiyer.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/11/kalaivani-a-short-story.htm

Thanks to Sri Naathigan, member of the Kanchi Forum for this link.

Tyrannos
22 December 2008, 09:33 AM
Hail!!!

I am presenting these citations to better understand Nietzsche:

From "the Antichrist":



PREFACE
This book belongs to the most rare of men. Perhaps not one of them is yet alive. It is possible that they may be among those who understand my "Zarathustra": how could I confound myself with those who are now sprouting ears?--First the day after tomorrow must come for me. Some men are born posthumously.
The conditions under which any one understands me, and necessarily understands me--I know them only too well. Even to endure my seriousness, my passion, he must carry intellectual integrity to the verge of hardness. He must be accustomed to living on mountain tops--and to looking upon the wretched gabble of politics and nationalism as beneath him. He must have become indifferent; he must never ask of the truth whether it brings profit to him or a fatality to him... He must have an inclination, born of strength, for questions that no one has the courage for; the courage for the forbidden; predestination for the labyrinth. The experience of seven solitudes. New ears for new music. New eyes for what is most distant. A new conscience for truths that have hitherto remained unheard. And the will to economize in the grand manner--to hold together his strength, his enthusiasm...
Very well, then! of that sort only are my readers, my true readers, my readers foreordained: of what account are the rest?--The rest are merely humanity.--One must make one's self superior to humanity, in power, in loftiness of soul,--in contempt.

--Let us look each other in the face. We are Hyperboreans--we know well enough how remote our place is. "Neither by land nor by water will you find the road to the Hyperboreans": even Pindar,in his day, knew that much about us. Beyond the North, beyond the ice, beyond death--our life, our happiness...We have discovered that happiness; we know the way; we got our knowledge of it from thousands of years in the labyrinth. Who else has found it?--The man of today?--"I don't know either the way out or the way in; I am whatever doesn't know either the way out or the way in"--so sighs the man of today...This is the sort of modernity that made us ill,--we sickened on lazy peace, cowardly compromise, the whole virtuous dirtiness of the modern Yea and Nay. This tolerance and largeur of the heart that "forgives" everything because it "understands" everything is a sirocco to us. Rather live amid the ice than among modern virtues and other such south-winds! . . . We were brave enough; we spared neither ourselves nor others; but we were a long time finding out where to direct our courage. We grew dismal; they called us fatalists. Our fate--it was the fulness, the tension, the storing up of powers. We thirsted for the lightnings and great deeds; we kept as far as possible from the happiness of the weakling, from "resignation" . . . There was thunder in our air; nature, as we embodied it, became overcast--for we had not yet found the way. The formula of our happiness: a Yea, a Nay, a straight line, a goal...

What is good?--Whatever augments the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself, in man.
What is evil?--Whatever springs from weakness.
What is happiness?--The feeling that power increases--that resistance is overcome.
Not contentment, but more power; not peace at any price, but war; not virtue, but efficiency (virtue in the Renaissance sense, virtu, virtue free of moral acid).
The weak and the botched shall perish: first principle of our charity. And one should help them to it.
What is more harmful than any vice?--Practical sympathy for the botched and the weak--Christianity...
We should not deck out and embellish Christianity: it has waged a war to the death against this higher type of man, it has put all the deepest instincts of this type under its ban, it has developed its concept of evil, of the Evil One himself, out of these instincts--the strong man as the typical reprobate, the "outcast among men." Christianity has taken the part of all the weak, the low, the botched; it has made an ideal out of antagonism to all the self-preservative instincts of sound life; it has corrupted even the faculties of those natures that are intellectually most vigorous, by representing the highest intellectual values as sinful, as misleading, as full of temptation. The most lamentable example: the corruption of Pascal, who believed that his intellect had been destroyed by original sin, whereas it was actually destroyed by Christianity!--

The Christian concept of a god--the god as the patron of the sick, the god as a spinner of cobwebs...--is one of the most corrupt concepts that has ever been set up in the world: it probably touches low-water mark in the ebbing evolution of the god-type. God degenerated into the contradiction of life. Instead of being its transfiguration and eternal Yea!

The fact that the strong races of northern Europe did not repudiate this Christian god does little credit to their gift for religion--and not much more to their taste. They ought to have been able to make an end of such a moribund and worn-out product of the decadence. A curse lies upon them because they were not equal to it; they made illness, decrepitude and contradiction a part of their instincts--and since then they have not managed to create any more gods. Two thousand years have come and gone--and not a single new god! Instead, there still exists, and as if by some intrinsic right,--as if he were the ultimatum and maximum of the power to create gods, of the creator spiritus in mankind--this pitiful god of Christian monotono-theism! This hybrid image of decay, conjured up out of emptiness, contradiction and vain imagining, in which all the instincts of decadence, all the cowardices and wearinesses of the soul find their sanction!--

--In the last analysis it comes to this: what is the end of lying? The fact that, in Christianity, "holy" ends are not visible is my objection to the means it employs. Only bad ends appear: the poisoning, the calumniation, the denial of life, the despising of the body, the degradation and self-contamination of man by the concept of sin--therefore, its means are also bad.--

I have a contrary feeling when I read the Code of Manu, an incomparably more intellectual and superior work, which it would be a sin against the intelligence to so much as name in the same breath with the Bible. It is easy to see why: there is a genuine philosophy behind it, in it, not merely an evil-smelling mess of Jewish rabbinism and superstition,--it gives even the most fastidious psychologist something to sink his teeth into. And, not to forget what is most important, it differs fundamentally from every kind of Bible: by means of it the nobles, the philosophers and the warriors keep the whip-hand over the majority; it is full of noble valuations, it shows a feeling of perfection, an acceptance of life, and triumphant feeling toward self and life--the sun shines upon the whole book.--All the things on which Christianity vents its fathomless vulgarity--for example, procreation, women and marriage--are here handled earnestly, with reverence and with love and confidence. How can any one really put into the hands of children and ladies a book which contains such vile things as this: "to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband; . . . it is better to marry than to burn"? And is it possible to be a Christian so long as the origin of man is Christianized, which is to say, befouled, by the doctrine of the immaculata conceptio? . . . I know of no book in which so many delicate and kindly things are said of women as in the Code of Manu; these old grey-beards and saints have a way of being gallant to women that it would be impossible, perhaps, to surpass. "The mouth of a woman," it says in one place, "the breasts of a maiden, the prayer of a child and the smoke of sacrifice are always pure." In another place: "there is nothing purer than the light of the sun, the shadow cast by a cow, air, water, fire and the breath of a maiden." Finally, in still another place--perhaps this is also a holy lie--: "all the orifices of the body above the navel are pure, and all below are impure. Only in the maiden is the whole body pure."
One catches the unholiness of Christian means in flagranti by the simple process of putting the ends sought by Christianity beside the ends sought by the Code of Manu--by putting these enormously antithetical ends under a strong light.
To draw up such a law-book as Manu's means to lay before a people the possibility of future mastery, of attainable perfection--it permits them to aspire to the highest reaches of the art of life.
The order of castes, the highest, the dominating law, is merely the ratification of an order of nature, of a natural law of the first rank, over which no arbitrary fiat, no "modern idea," can exert any influence.

--With this I come to a conclusion and pronounce my judgment. I condemn Christianity; I bring against the Christian church the most terrible of all the accusations that an accuser has ever had in his mouth. It is, to me, the greatest of all imaginable corruptions; it seeks to work the ultimate corruption, the worst possible corruption. The Christian church has left nothing untouched by its depravity; it has turned every value into worthlessness, and every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul. Let any one dare to speak to me of its "humanitarian" blessings! Its deepest necessities range it against any effort to abolish distress; it lives by distress; it creates distress to make itself immortal. . . . For example, the worm of sin: it was the church that first enriched mankind with this misery!--The "equality of souls before God"--this fraud, this pretext for the rancunes of all the base-minded--this explosive concept, ending in revolution, the modern idea, and the notion of overthrowing the whole social order--this is Christian dynamite. . . . The "humanitarian" blessings of Christianity forsooth! To breed out of humanitas a self-contradiction, an art of self-pollution, a will to lie at any price, an aversion and contempt for all good and honest instincts! All this, to me, is the "humanitarianism" of Christianity!--Parasitism as the only practice of the church; with its anaemic and "holy" ideals, sucking all the blood, all the love, all the hope out of life;...; the cross as the distinguishing mark of the most subterranean conspiracy ever heard of,--against health, beauty, well-being, intellect, kindness of soul--against life itself. . . .
This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see. . . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,--I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . . .
And mankind reckons time from the dies nefastus when this fatality befell--from the first day of Christianity!--Why not rather from its last?--From today?--The transvaluation of all values! . . .

It's Dionysus versus the Crucified, the Ubermensch versus the "Last Man".
He concludes his autobiography Ecce Homo with the words, ‘Have I been understood? – Dionysus against the Crucified’

Tyrannos

atanu
22 December 2008, 09:51 AM
I am glad and grateful to note that while we are hotly debating Vedatanta here, the roots of our Sanatana Dharma are going deeper than is apparent among the Hindu grass roots. Aren't the girl, the heroine of this article, a greater Vedantin than any of us consider ourselves to be?

Kalaivani..a short story
http://srajahiyer.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/11/kalaivani-a-short-story.htm

Thanks to Sri Naathigan, member of the Kanchi Forum for this link.

Namaste saidevoji,

Thanks for the link.

I wish to ask respectfully, "Do the bits and pieces from internet, superposed and coloured with a spirited vague romanticism of Kings etc. constitute Vedanta?" I know that I am not debating Vedanta. But if seniors feel that Tyrannos has correct view of Sanatana Dharma and needs no checking, then let it be so.

Regards

Om Namah Shivaya

Artemidora
22 December 2008, 10:11 AM
Dear Atanu,

I am sorry but I think that here you has misunderstood the thought of Nietzsche and its real deep:


First: It is absurd to assimilate Nietzsche and Descartes, they share nothing, on the contrary they are of opposite views...in effect Nietzsche had a mystic view of Existence, where Mind, Reason and Individual Nature constitute the basis for understanding the being and the not-being, and reach what is beyond them- He call what is beyond as Dionysos (the Son of Great Zeus or the New Zeus) but read carefully what he said about Him, the Genius of the Heart, in "Beyond good and evil":
The God said: In some moments I love the man-and He alluded to Arianna who was present ... I often take it as yet to begin and make him stronger, more cruel and deeper than what he is already.
More stronger, more cruel and more profound? I asked frightened
Yes- He answers again- more stronger, more cruel and more profound and so more beautiful.

This Dionysos of whom Nietzsche speaks about in many writings is the ancient God
that Heraclitus called in identity with Aidoneus, the Lord of the departed souls- the same mystic rituals involve the two of them and They are praised as the Giver and the Taker and Lord of animals.

This Dionysos is called as the Anti-Christ, the One who the opponent and enemy of christianity and all similar manifestations of adharma on the Earth, as for example, as rightly pointed out by Tyrannos, for the persians and arabians and so on...


And the doctrine of christianity and that of the last- man are the same; it is for this reason that Zarathustra failed with the mob and must return to the quiet of the mountains, it is for this reason that Nietzsche retired from the wordly affairs to remain alone in the presence of the Gods, it is for this reason that the Truth remains veiled to the moltitude of the living beings...because they are the last men...the followers of democracy and liberl pathways, the followers of unrighteous morals should be avoided at any cost- so said ourTradition and so also I've read also in BrahmaVaivarta Purana, from the most high Authority.

There were an ancient said in these western lands about Dionysos: " Many are those who follow the rites, but very few are those who can call themselves truly as Dionysos.". This is the mystic doctrine, similar truly to that I've found in Puranic lore!
So also is for the Brahman...many are those who call themselves in unity with the All, but very few are those who understand truly it...

And, at last, what Nietzsche states as Power of Will or Will of Power, is not the single will of the single man; it is the Life and Death, truly the Power of the Giver and the Taker, nothing else than the Primeval Shakti.
When the individual soul of the Jiiva became identified with this primeval Force, when this Force became its will, only then is realized what is always beyond...this what the think of Nietzsche in Greek as also Hindu perspective.

Finally, Nietzsche died mad...it's truly...but why? Maybe you can't understand (I hope it is not so) but here this kind of madness is a blessing: as Caitanya sometimes falled at the ground repeating the holy name of the God and tears filled his eyes for love, so is the case for Nietzsche- in its last writings he remeber to us this very abduction of the senses to a more higher level:
"Oh, come back again
my God Unknown,
my sorrow, my last joy!"


Salutations!

atanu
22 December 2008, 10:35 AM
Dear Atanu,


I am sorry but I think that here you has misunderstood the thought of Nietzsche and its real deep:



First: It is absurd to assimilate Nietzsche and Descartes,




Thank you Artemidora,

I have no doubt that Nietzsche was real deep whom Tyrannos or Me or You do not understand, especially when through internet cut and paste. In fact Nazis mis-used him. I have grave reservation to some one coming with a Nazi like salutation and interpreting Nietzsche the same way as Nazis did. Nietzsche did not say 'Last Men' but both Nazis and Tyrannos use Last Men. Nietzsche's 'Last Man' is whom we know as destroyer Rudra.


You are right to point out the difference between Descartes and Nietzsche, but I can assure you that I know the differences. Please read back and see that I compared these two only to the limited extent that both Descartes (surely) and Nietzche (possibly) were unaware of the unchangeable Atman wherefrom is the First Man (as Mind) and whereto goes the Last Man (as Mind). At least I have not seen such a knowledge in Nietzshe. Else, He would not have contrasted the activity of the Super Man with contentment of the Last Man. (May be it is possible that no one precisely knows what Nietzsche meant).


But it is sure that his philosophy gave rise to a monster called National Socialism and Hitler, albiet through mis-understanding. And here again Nietzsche is being used here as a guidepost for Hindus, with salutations of Hail etc? Why? Do Hindus require to understand the value of the Last Man's, Shiva's contentment through Nietzsche? Do we need to compare the value of last Man Shiva and creator BrahmA? BrahmA's creative activity was Nietzsce's preference over contentment of Shiva, but it is not a Hindu preference. Most Hindus know that the Last Man Rudra is only the creator BrahmA, in a limited role.


And Hindus know that "On a fraction of Brahman's contentment, the world lives". Surely, Nietzshce never must have heard it. And I do not wish to learn of Hinduism through Neitzsche via Tyrannos.


Om

Tyrannos
22 December 2008, 11:15 AM
Hail!!!


I have grave reservation to some one coming with a Nazi like salutation
Again the salutation...I have already written about this ...

and interpreting Nietzsche the same way as Nazis did.
I have not interpreted. I have only quoted;
And I'm not nationalist nor even socialist...these are modern and corrupt political ideologies;
The Gods give the Law, the Eternal Dharma...and Dharma is the LAW , the only true LAW...the others "law" are adharma...And Dharma loves the Kings, not the mob...



Nietzsche's 'Last Man' is whom we know as destroyer Rudra.
:headscratch: Oh no. How much confusion! Rudra is Dionysos...:)


This Dionysos of whom Nietzsche speaks about in many writings is the ancient God that Heraclitus called in identity with Aidoneus, the Lord of the departed souls- the same mystic rituals involve the two of them and They are praised as the Giver and the Taker and Lord of animals.
This Dionysos is called as the Anti-Christ, the One who the opponent and enemy of christianity and all similar manifestations of adharma on the Earth
Thank you very much Artemidora!!! :D

Tyrannos

Artemidora
22 December 2008, 11:34 AM
Dear Atanu,

as I said before, the last man is to be understood as the one that leads to the dissolution of all the noble things, not to all things- he is not the Destroyer Rudra, but is almost similar to the demon kali from whom he takes all its features and actions. So the last men do not recognize the Moral, the Truth, the Religious Path, he desire only the satisfaction of the meanest and smaller desires of human race...what is to be avoided at all cost! In this sense at last we can recognize him as Rudra, because from destruction comes again the renewal.

Nietzsche speaks about the last man, when he, or Zarathustra, is in the presence of the mob- in other words, in the presence of those who do not realize at all the omnipresence of the divine and its consequent deepness;
he speaks truly to those who in fact ignore and are full of doubts...and so they can't understand him...when he is on the mountains, he speaks to himself and asks: why I go ahead? Why I'm speaking to those who can't hear...but I'm as the farmer who tend his soil so that one day will be growth and force and love to the Earth again..

"Hail" is a salutation used often; do not worry about it...love for the remote past is always confused with some distorted perspectives...being conservatives and lovers of ancient Rules is not to be compared with modern theories such as the nazi or others...simply, our ancient Law-codes and the Dharma Shastra are almost similar in every way, in respect of castes, conduct of life style, religious duty etc...from it comes the enthusiasm that can be found in many of Tyrannos' answers, as I think


And as I've said, Nietzsche do not prefer one or other instance of the All- he gazes at what he calls "the blissfull game of the Gods, where the Earth is the gaming table where They play eternally..."
The Power residing inside this game...how we can call Her? Lalita maybe...?
And he speaks highly about this game, and praise it , properly, as the supreme contentement of Dionysos...the God who amuse himself in dances among his devotees...
So in its conception resides the Unity of the Three, Brahma's Power, Rudra's Power, Vishnu's Power- as in the Varaha...


But. finally, the war of Mahabharata was fought...
I can't forget this phrase from the Linga Purana on occasion of the great destruction of Tripura: "Kalii for whom the blood of asuras is as the red wine."


Do you understand how the love for the Absolute (and we can call Him in various ways) and the need for warning and war is an unique thing in the philosophy of Nietzsche?
Can I call all this as the knowledge of the union but the conservation of differences?
What the Gita praise in effect?



Salutations!

atanu
22 December 2008, 11:40 AM
Hail!!!


I have not interpreted. I have only quoted;


No. You have copied portion from Wiki, changed Man to Modern Men. I have pasted both versions above.



:headscratch: Oh no. How much confusion! Rudra is Dionysos...:)

That is foolish.

Rudra is Apollo, the Sun.
Rudra is Soma, the Moon, Dionysius
Rudra is Agni and his toungue is agni.

And Rudra and Shiva are the same, the father, Zeus.

-------------
For Artemidora

Nietzsche never made war cries and let Apollo be defeated by Dionysius. On the contrary, he said as below:



Much will have been gained for aesthetics once we have succeeded in apprehending directly-rather than merely ascertaining-that art owes its continuous evolution to the Apollinian- Dionysian duality, even as the propagation of the species depends on the duality of the sexes, their constant conflicts and periodic acts of reconciliation. No one objects to that.

But Nietzsche near the end of life himself said that the dichotomy of Dionysos and Appollo that he created in his mind as the ultimate reality was artefact of a growing young mind.

For us Moon and the Sun both have their existence in Brahman, which is non-dual.

Best Wishes

Om

atanu
22 December 2008, 12:00 PM
Dear Atanu,


as I said before, the last man is to be understood as the one that leads to the dissolution of all the noble things, not to all things- he is not the Destroyer Rudra, but is almost similar to the demon kali from whom he takes all its features and actions. So the last men do not recognize the Moral, the Truth, the Religious Path,
Salutations!


Dear Artemidora

I have already mentioned that it is a wrong translation and misuse that made 'the Last Man' to 'last men'. Any party can term men of the opponent party as 'the last men'. And both parties will be true in their own perspectives.





From Wiki
Nietzsche contrasts the Übermensch with the Last Man, who appears as an exaggerated version of the degraded "goal" that unified the liberal democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy), bourgeois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois), socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism), and communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) social and political programs.[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-46) The plural Übermenschen never appears in Nietzsche's writings, which sharply contrasts with Nazi interpretations of his corpus."


That Nieztshce's philosophy was verry close to Hinduism is undoubted. The following two pages will help to understand that in no way he supported Hitler.
Only Nazis used Nietzsche's writing selectively to decimate 'last men' from the face of the earth. Last men according to them were the Jews. Nietzshce abhored the anti jew emotions of these criminals and declared in anguish "I am a Polish and not a German."

http://www.froyd.net/philosophy/philo20.htm
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/zarathustra.html


Similary, in a lighter mood Tyrannos says:


It's Dionysus versus the Crucified, the Ubermensch versus the "Last Man".
Here it would appear that Dionysius conspired to get Jesus crucified. I am inclined to say that if it were true then Dionysius was not very wise there -- his act made Jesus (the Last Man as per Tyro) very potent. I do not know what Tyrannos means? Whereas, Nietzche teaches complemental relationship of Apollo and Dionysius, through conflict and peace. And surely we know that Shiva is both Sun and Moon, Male and Female, Moving and Immobile.



I wonder why you fail to note such ludicrous statements as "Dionysus versus the Crucified" but find fault in my understanding of Nietzsche? The main question is whether it is required to bring in Hitler's interpretation of Nietzshce to resusciate Hinduism? Or whether Nietzshce's citations (interpolated) are required for understanding and protection of Hinduism?



Om

atanu
22 December 2008, 01:25 PM
Dear Atanu,

Do you understand how the love for the Absolute (and we can call Him in various ways) and the need for warning and war is an unique thing in the philosophy of Nietzsche?

Can I call all this as the knowledge of the union but the conservation of differences?
What the Gita praise in effect?


No Artemidora, I do not understand what you understand about waging a war for the love of the absolute. But I know what the following line of Nietzshce is a call for (for me).

"Your enemy you shall seek, your war you shall wage--for your thoughts."

One's enemy is one's own thoughts that one shall have to seek out and fight.

Do you understand me?

Om Namah Shivaya

Artemidora
22 December 2008, 05:24 PM
Dear Atanu,

let me take a few observations from what you wrote:

in relation to what Nietzsche says about Apollo and Dionysos-
They are Gods of the Tragedy, this form of art cannot exist without the coexistence of the Two;
Tragedy means the Life of all living beings, so we can compare the foundation of this Art with that of Natyasastra, where Brahma is said to create the Art of Theatre for the progress and instruction of humans in respect of moral, conduct and history; and when asuras try to stop it, the Gods replicate: do no act so because this is the representation of the true state of the Three Worlds...

So, for Nietzsche Reality cannot even exist without this dual opposistion- but it is truly an opposition? As the Night and the Day, they seem to be in contrast, yet Day borns again and again from the Night- so their mutual opposition is solved: so it's for Apollo and Dionysos.
In last days of his life, Nietzsche explored a more deep thought: who is this Primeval God in whom the opposition become also unity?
Who is the source of even the sacred Will?
Where all that is born must return?
You must remember that the devotees of Dionysos are called "Bakchoi"- it's the same root for the word "Bhakta"- it is what Nietzsche sought to achieve...

Artemidora
22 December 2008, 06:08 PM
And again, dear Atanu,


yes, nazi used Nietzsche as also many others ancient Philosophies,

without any really understanding, and we can judge from the effects the real import of their actions...
but there is no confusion nor any error of traduction: the last man, as you wish, is this:
the moral of the slaves and candalas is well recognizable, because it's the most utilitarian moral that can exist- what is high, they call it evil and they think only about themselves- so speaks Nietzsche in "What is aristocratic?"
The last men...or the last man...is there a difference? From the last man come thousands of last men...then democracy, or rulership of shudras, is established as well as equality, that is a knowledge for very few beings and not for the various mob that is a pray always to ignorance!
Because if all the living beings are entitled for the final emancipation and knowledge, why only few are those who reach finally the goal?
But in fact, what Nietzsche desired was that everyone knew his Duty and do it in the best way, and those who detached from this Law are unrighteous and judged as shudras in conduct.
What is stated in the Holy Gita?

Is not the same principle?


Do not think about and with modern perspectives...they are as smoke in the eyes: we must return to what is more ancient, and this was also the warning we must see in the words of Nietzsche: when he speaks about Dionysos versus Christianity, he's saying: do not think about what is new, but return to what is the more ancient One among All, do not fall in his illusion that is meant to spread here and there only ignorance, but return to the ancient knowledge of the Fathers before it is lost completely, save it with strenght and powerful will; in christianity the first sin is the Knowledge that cames forth from the apple-tree through the blessing of the Serpent- the highest bliss of their religion is to go away as far as possible to the Knowledge that is Truth...
Dionysos, as the Lord of Nature (and also as the Lord of the Moon) is this ancient One ever praised- "the ever present constellation of Being, supreme image of Fate..because I love You oh Eternity!"


Salutations!

Artemidora
22 December 2008, 06:15 PM
No Artemidora, I do not understand what you understand about waging a war for the love of the absolute. But I know what the following line of Nietzshce is a call for (for me).

"Your enemy you shall seek, your war you shall wage--for your thoughts."

One's enemy is one's own thoughts that one shall have to seek out and fight.

Do you understand me?

Om Namah Shivaya
[/left]



And truly finally...
what do you mean? Maybe I've dont understand...

Another ancient saying is this: "Encourage friends and destroy enemies"
If I think that with the word "enemies" we can indicate the destroyer of Dharma...so I freely can say that is the love for Absolute that lead to a similar ending point...I can't forget the dialogue between Yudhishthira and Draupadi...this the example I've in my mind...


Again Salutations!

atanu
22 December 2008, 07:27 PM
Dear Atanu,


In last days of his life, Nietzsche explored a more deep thought: who is this Primeval God in whom the opposition become also unity?


Who is the source of even the sacred Will?


Namaste Art,

I will confess that I do not fully understand half of what you or Tyra write. Though I am trying.

I have picked up the above statement of yours since it is what I wanted to say all through. Nietzsche was still in the process of assimilation but before that he had written so much that he was a troubled man. You will not find anything but disdain about God as the Absolute in Nietzshce's early writings. That is why he said 'God is Dead'. He also contradicted many of his early sayings, especially when Nazis mis-used his writings.


Similarly, when Tyrannos gives equations such as 'Rudra is Dionysius' and 'Dionysius versus the Crucified as the Last Man', it is indigestion showing. It is partitioning the ONE FULLNESS into a part as per one's fancy. First we must assimilate the knowledge that Rudra-Shiva is Eko. Not Two. Eko hi rudro. dvittiya nasthu.

Such partitioned ideas are prevalent among the formatives who have the tendency to think that 'Rudra is my God and He will finish off Jesus and his followers'. God is one whole and whatever one knows by contact or by report is within God. Hinduism believes that the very consciousness that knows and that is known is God -- the pure consciousness.

You will find that Nietzshce disdained the very concept of pure consciousness. He was a fierce critic of Kant on this issue. Nietzshce was correct that a human mind does not represent Pure Consciousness. But he altogether discounted the possibility of 'Pure Consciousness' of Samadhi.


Do not think about and with modern perspectives...they are as smoke in the eyes: we must return to what is more ancient,

This I have heard before.

What according to you is ancient and also correct? Where to draw the line and what to do with the people or the belief that came after that timeline? Is there any consensus or do you wish to impose your idea of correct timeline (and correct ancient Dharma) on the rest of the mankind through Military intervention? Did God vanish after your preferred time-lime?

This is most Hitlerian idea -- to force the clock back. Jews are the 'Last Men', so exterminate them. Where will this Last Men' concept take us? That is why I commented that Has Satyam (God) and Ritam (God's law) gone to sleep?



Another ancient saying is this: "Encourage friends and destroy enemies"
If I think that with the word "enemies" we can indicate the destroyer of Dharma...so I freely can say that is the love for Absolute that lead to a similar ending point...

We have an ancient saying that an intelligent enemy is better than a mis-guided friend. I ask you where Nietzshce has said about enemies etc.? Nietzshce says:"Your enemy you shall seek, your war you shall wage--for your thoughts." He talks about one man and his one enemy -- one's own thoughts. This is closest statement of his to Upanishadic teaching that 'Mahat, the Mind is the Universe.'


Similarly, when Nietzshce compares Last Man and the Over Man, the Dualists jump to make it 'Last Men' and ascribe it to any one or any group whom they hate.

-----------------------
Om Namah Shivaya

I reiterate that Sanatana Dharma does not need Nietzshce. It is Nietzcshe who might have tried to find his own peace in Sanatana Dharma but ideas of his formative years cannot be taken as the teachings and the guidance of Sanatana Dharma. Especially, Manu smriti alone does not constitute Sanatana Dharma.

Nietzshce was too troubled himself to be of any use as guide, and especially for the followers of Sanatana Dharma. Because, first, his ideas were still maturing. Second, his philosophy has great vulnerabilty for mis-use -- with statements like 'God is Dead' etc.


Best wishes. Please take your time to assimilate God as Non-partisan and the Full please. I am signing off to a holiday and I pray for wisdom for me.

Om Namah Shivaya

Tyrannos
22 December 2008, 09:10 PM
Hail!!!


Is there any consensus or do you wish to impose your idea of correct timeline (and correct ancient Dharma) on the rest of the mankind through Military intervention?...
This is most Hitlerian idea -- to force the clock back...

Please, stop to talk about Nazism: the Nazis were national-socialists, and socialism is certainly contrary to the Dharma: The Gods give the Law, the Eternal Dharma...and Dharma is the LAW , the only true LAW...the others "law" are adharma...And Dharma loves the Kings, not the mob...


Well,
"Whenever there is a withering of the Law
and an uprising of lawlessness on all sides,
then I manifest Myself.
For the salvation of the righteous
and the destruction of such as do evil,
for the firm establishing of the Law,
I come to birth, age after age.
("Bhagavad Gita")

"Soon, Garga (associate of Kalki) and his army killed 6000 Buddhist soldiers. Bharga and his soldiers killed and injured 11 million enemy soldiers and his mighty allies killed 2500 of them. Kobi along with his sons killed 2 million enemy soldiers, Pragya killed 1 million and Sumantu killed 5 million soldiers."("Kalki Purana")

"Soon they entered the city of Bishasan, the capital of kali, and burnt down the city using fiery missile. Alongwith the city, kali too was burnt and his sons and relatives were destroyed."("Kalki Purana")

I reiterate that Sanatana Dharma does not need Nietzshce.
The followers of Sanatana Dharma need especially Nietzsche's notes on christianity, because many so-called followers of Sanatana Dharma show much interest in the abrahamic religions but no interest in the Ancient Religions so-called "pagans"...and Why this? because the ancient religions are something old and distant? are Death-things? Why there is so little respect for the Ancestors?
I repeat:
The Hindu Religion is one of the few if not the only religion faithful to the Dharma (Sanatana Dharma is the name of the Hindu Religion ...) still remained on the Earth: the followers of the other religions faithful to the Dharma have been killed or have been corrupted by the adharmic and misleading "religions" by the followers of the abrahamic religions ... this is a historical fact: the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, the Ancient Romans, the Ancient Greeks, the Incas, the Mayas, the Celts, the ancient Babylonians, the Assyrians, etc.etc.are all "disappeared" and most of their Ancient Wisdom is now lost because it was destroyed ... and when the sacred Indian texts speak of the kali age they tell us that this will happen all over the world, including India...

And if this is or whether this will be the future aspect of the Temples in India? http://photos.igougo.com/images/p1604-Bergama_Turkey-Temple_of_Zeus.jpg

http://www.veloasia.com/images/turkey/temple_of_zeus.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/1c/cb/ac/temple-of-apollo.jpg

http://www.petersommer.com/galleryimages/carian/Temple-Apollo-Didyma-Turkey.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3262/2678366868_794441e392.jpg
Tyrannos

Tyrannos
22 December 2008, 09:38 PM
http://www.morganatours.com/images/temples6.jpg

http://photos.igougo.com/images/p174700-Sicily-Ancient_Greek_Temples.jpg

http://www.icteachers.co.uk/photos/photos3/paestum_ceres1.jpg

atanu
23 December 2008, 04:44 AM
Hail!!!

Please, stop to talk about Nazism: the Nazis were national-socialists, and socialism is certainly contrary to the Dharma: The Gods give the Law, the Eternal Dharma...and Dharma is the LAW , the only true LAW...the others "law" are adharma...And Dharma loves the Kings, not the mob...


Tyra,

I am talking about you and not Nazism. My question to Art was "--what will be the timeline that will demarcate an ancient good dharma from a new degraded Dharma?"

And you paste a piece of Gita. What is the relation between my question and your posting?

Can you show that Dharma loves only the kings?

Om

atanu
23 December 2008, 10:50 PM
And truly finally...

Another ancient saying is this: "Encourage friends and destroy enemies"

Again Salutations!

Dear Artemidora,

I am constrained of time yet, your above sentence haunted me and brought me back to write a last few lines. I am a small ego, so failed to respond to a call of friendship and true goodwill in the heat of mental war. May I be pardoned for the lapse.

I accept your encouragement and convey same to you.

I take the opportunity to point out that how God works. How a small piece of goodwill travels. How it impells me to write this small piece.

My Guru says "your enemies are your greatest friends, since you and they have a common goal to finish off the ego." So, though I do not accept any as enemies, but friendship and encouragement are sweet.

I must repeat that true Hinduism does not see the conflict of Atman and Mind as real (conflict between Dionysius and Apollo) but only as a play to purify the Soma (eternally flowing bliss), sieving it through the wooly filter (head of a man).

The greatest strength of Hinduism is its friendship call to all -- there is no King and Mob, only the God -- Brahman. The call of friendship dissolves the stones.

Thank You and Regards for your well organised writing and thoughts.


Best Wishes and Love.

Om Namah Shivaya

atanu
24 December 2008, 01:14 AM
Dear Artemidora,

I must repeat that true Hinduism does not see the conflict of Atman and Mind as real (conflict between Dionysius and Apollo) but only as a play to purify the Soma (eternally flowing bliss), sieving it through the wooly filter (head of a man).
Om Namah Shivaya


Please consider the following:

Rig Veda
10.054.02 When you proceed, Indra, increasing in form, and proclaiming your prowess among mankind, false is that your (wandering), false the combats which you have narrated; you (find) now no enemy (to attack), did you formerly find one?

10.054.03 Who among the r.s.is before us have obtained the limit of your entire greatness, since from your own person you have generated at once both mother and father (or earth and heaven)?

Compare this with Nietzshce as below:

"Your enemy you shall seek, your war you shall wage--for your thoughts."

-----------------------------------------

When the Mahat is lighted up by the divine light of agni, the differences and acrimonius feelings are found in nescience and are dissolved in the light.

Mankind will ever be indebted to Veda, which is our Mother. From time to time, the western philosophers will taste and spread its nectar.

Om Namah Shivaya

Artemidora
24 December 2008, 06:39 AM
Dear Atanu,

Thank you for the kind words and I apologize if sometimes my messages are not very understandable ... I hope to improve!


First I must clarify something very important: I never talked about feelings of hatred against those who live in ignorance;
for a long time I believed that this was the only one feeling that their actions could inspire: anger and, with it, a great sadness.

Then fortunately I read the Ramayana ...as Rama fulfills its Duty always and at the same time is enlightened about the highest Truth: He killed many thousands of enemies and no hatred is visibile nor present in Him...
Who is an enemy?
He who first, without any offense was caused, for low reasons wage a war against those who had previously no reason for animosity.

When one is attacked, only then it is legitimate for him to react.
Even Yudhishthira, who is the great King image of Dharma on the Earth, at hearing the last response of Duryodana, decides himself for the war
as the only possible solution.
And fight a war for the sake of Brahmins, cows and the Gods is always a praiseworthy thing!



So my answer to your question about the time-line: the fulfillment of individual Duty and of the religious Duty...when those two are no more, then where we will see the image of Dharma?
Is the righteous King the protector of Dharma, a portion of Vishnu Himself? Is He the Father and the Mother, the refuge and the last resort to anyone? As the King is a portion of Vishnu, the Queen is a portion to Lakshmi- so the two are the very parents of the population and the living beings of the kingdom are their sons. But when the sons did not respect their parents and act in a foolish way...what must do the parent who truly loves his childrens and then always acts on their behalf?

And again: He should not destroy everything that can lead to misfortune in his kingdom, and among its subjects?

So have always acted the great kings of the past, whose deeds are an example of right conduct for all time;
there is another ancient saying of my homeland "as Zeus among the Gods, so the King among men".
In a similar way begins the final dialogue between Bhishma and Yudhishthira...


Salutations!

Artemidora
24 December 2008, 06:55 AM
and again, dear Atanu,

my knowledge of Hinduism is based only on Puranas and not on the Veda, for it is not righteous for a woman to read them- so I've found stated in the texts...
but with my little knowledge I can agree with the last part of your message-
but I have also a question for you:
how many are those who can reach such an enlightened state of Mahat?
how many are those who are truly "an ocean of Knowledge" ?
I fear that they are very few...
such an equality of highest degree is very rarely reached, and very rarely practiced in those times...only in the Satya Yuga there are no castes, no divisions, only enlightened beings who roam about here and there,completely free from any opposition.


Again thanks and salutations!

atanu
24 December 2008, 07:35 AM
and again, dear Atanu,

but I have also a question for you:
how many are those who can reach such an enlightened state of Mahat?
how many are those who are truly "an ocean of Knowledge" ?


Again thanks and salutations!


Namaste Art,

Thank you for your nice replies.

Regarding Rama performing His warrior duty -- well He was none other than Rudra, Shiva's Son. Like every one cannot take up teaching Brahman's knowledge, everyone cannot begin killing. One must be stabilised in Dharma and one must be Khatrya by profession/station of birth.

Regarding how many are knowers of pure Mahat? I do not know. But the the enlightened becomes All. Nietzshce says it in his Thus spoke---.

Moreover, those who function as disseminator of Shiva's sweetness must know. Christ says: Blind should not lead the blind. And traditionally, Hindus have believed that Brahmana (the knower Brahman) should teach.

In fact, I am supporting you that all functions are not for every one.

See you after about 5-6 days.

Best Wishes.

Om

Artemidora
27 December 2008, 09:37 AM
Dear Atanu,

I liked very much your response! and that about Rama particularly...

I had understood in this sense the demand of Tyrannos about the presence of the Kings and the current era, in the contest of the warning...

In Western philosophy there is great debate about what Plato has similar or identical to the Hindu thought, for example, on the question of individual Duty and its importance for the Prosperity of the State and safeguarding of Justice and Order;

it is known that Plato divides the population into four castes, each corresponding to a different character, predominant in the Soul, such as the rational, irascible, etc. we can refer to those different parts as similar to the concept of Gunas.
This becomes clear when he speaks of the first class, those he calls "Philosophers, or those who know the True in its wholeness"- for it is known that "philosopher" means "he who loves Knowledge"...
in the character of these is predominant the so-called rational soul, whose qualities are identical to those described for the Sattva guna.

Their task and only Duty is to sacrifice, study and teach ... so we can see how the first class is always that of Brahmana.

They monitor so that he who governs the State does not escape its individual Duty, protection and punishment following the prescribed and more ancient rules, nor break the Duty in a general sense.
You asked me what is to be considered more ancient and so more rightful...what was established by Gods themselves:
how can we appreciate more modern laws, created by men without any support of those who really know what should be done and what should not be done, when are still present the Institutions of Vishnu and many others works of Sages of ancient renown?

So we must remember that Plato conceives this State as the ideal one, no more as the present one but the system to be realized again and again by philosophers and warriors to please the Gods- moreover he said: for all that concerns religious and moral duties, refer to the Laws given by Apollo, because He is the Seer who shows the Laws of Zeus to the mortals so that they can thus achieve Order and Justice that are dear to the heart of the Gods.
Is it not always the same purpose?
To be stabilised in Dharma and to fulfill our own Duty are not the same thing?
And as you've said: the learned Brahmana should teach, as the righteous Kings should protect and punish...

Can I express my desire and regret for this situation of yore, no more realized actually?
That's why expressed the concern that very few are actually those who have realized the Purest above all and can be praised as Knowers of Brahman...and who can be the one who must protect them, as Rama did in the days of yore?

I hope you liked this short excursus...

Best wishes and salutations!

izi
30 December 2008, 08:51 PM
I find it amusing that Mahahrada accuses others of racism, yet slanders the name of Jesus in an earlier post. What a terrible karma it is to insult those sent down from above for the betterment of humanity.

I don't give a **** about Jesus....excuse me...

izi
30 December 2008, 09:06 PM
Weird thread...still...Tyrannos does have an ominous point in the destruction of the temples there. It will happen in India. I don't know when, ,but I can see it coming...no one seems to be doing anything to stop it, so...yeah. But we have many temples here in America so I'm sure *something* will survive.

I also don't like Nietzsche.. Used to, not so much anymore...too dry, too boring, lifeless...

Sort of like Islam. I don't know folks. It all seems like a terrible price to pay for "god".....I'm not on one side or another. These things have their own underlying mechanisms and what I can see the lord ananta surely knows already. i hate to drag my ishta dev into it but this thread was already getting there so I can't help it. The underlying controller behind all of the mechanisms of Islam, Terrorism, Hinduism, Dharma, Christianity....well....think about it...what kind of freaky lesson are we supposed to be figuring out here....

could it be....love? :(

izi
31 December 2008, 04:33 PM
Probably the only solution is intolerance. Maybe not so easy to say for a very tolerant spirituality such as dharma conscious paths of Buddhism and Sanatana Dharma, but when I look at the ways Islamics and Christians treat women and children I can only know in my heart they represent the worst kind of abominations stil present in the human race. Their practices are nothing short of demonic throughout history. Christianity is less scrutinized primarily because they are so well accepted and have managed to brainwash vast amounts of the population - they have little need to spread their so-called god through violence anymore except where it fulfills their greed.

I refuse to be tolerant of something when I know in my heart it's not right. We're talking about the mutilation of female genitals - children in filthy conditions, mass murderers who would impose their ill thought out beliefs on everyone else through violence and degradation, and the continued reliance on what is actually a very shortsighted, boring and vague religious text written by misogynistic morons for their own egotistic self righteousness. It has nothing to do with uplifting the human spirit, reaching godhead or attaining singularity....

but I still see the suffering in their people's eyes so well, it must be compassion that drives, and not hatred. This monotheism thing is really a disaster. At its heart, Sanatana Dharma is monotheistic, even atheistic (if one examines it from a certain point of view) but it does not allow for this criminal and simpleton's view of the many faces of what we call god, it treasures mystery and encourages logic, beauty and pleasure. So what the hell do we have to lose by protecting it fiercely? Certainly not our freedom...