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reflections
01 December 2008, 08:35 AM
Namaste All,
Strange title but
I find astonsihing similarities between Advaita and Sufism. And sometimes, I feel it is similar to Bhakti teachings. Sufi state of 'fanah' sounds very similar to Moksha where the separate identity of lover and beloved cease to exist.

Some Sufi quotes:

"I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God".
Sufi Proverb


I am the first, I am the last
None other, have I ever known
I am the wisest of them all
Bulleh! do I stand alone?
Baba Bulleh Shah

When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about ideas, language, and even the phrase, "each other" doesn't make any sense.
Rumi


What is unfortunate is, such exalted ideals, beautiful Bhakti teachings, few terrorist want to do bloodshed rather than focusing on these teachings. I will go through some more sufi teachings and come back with other resources later.


Jai Shri Krishna

MahaHrada
01 December 2008, 09:08 AM
Sufis suffer from persecution, and even face murder by mainstream muslims, if they are too liberal.
I could experience this firsthand because i was once in my youth studying with a Sufi Pir from Chistiya Silsila who was attacked by fanatics all the time, because of his universal and tolerant idea. This man was a real saint.
Some of the attackers where Sufis from other lineages for instance the more orthodox Naqshibandi amongst others.
They appeared when he held discourses and interrupted them shaking fists and shouting etc.
Chisti like to do meditaton similarly to Nada Yoga and so they use music for meditation, the Pir i was studying with accepted Hinduism as well as all other religions, which chisti generally do, but because some Muslim hate the use of music, chistiya are often attacked simply because of listening to music-small things like that matter a lot, sadly there is little acceptance and tolerance even among different lineages within Sufism and even within the lineages people tend to be tight about minor differences.
And on top of the internal differences Sufis have to deal with a lot mainstream oppression.

reflections
01 December 2008, 09:11 AM
Sad!!!

MahaHrada
01 December 2008, 09:41 AM
I am neither a mullah nor a Brahmin;
nor even a page of the Koran .
not for me the scripture of Gita ,
I am neither east nor west, neither earth nor sky .
I am a Jogi




we are , what are we?

we do not know what we are,

sometimes we are blessed,

sometimes we are accursed,

sometimes we fast and pray,

sometimes we become light hearted,

sometimes we say only I exist,

sometimes we say we do not exist,

sometimes our hearts are calm,

sometimes we weep,

sometimes we say we are realized,

sometimes we say who are we,

"Sachoo" we are that eternally ,

what other contract can we make .


Sachal Sarmast [1739- 1829]

Do I hide my nature, and show myself as another ?

Sinful it is to know others, all form is God .- Sachal Sarmast



An addition:
What i wanted to convey with this quote was that Sufism is not as close to Advaita vedanta as one may think at first sight, rather to siddha mata or nath panth. Sachal sarmast is describing the sahaja (natural, inborn or spontaneous) state of the Siddha mata - the return to stainless innocence (Niranjan) achieved by attending to ones own funeral, he is therefore in the state of amritva, where form (shakti/prakriti) is perceived entwined in a state of union with god (shiva/purusha), called samarasya (union in similarity of parts) not advaita moksha where form does not equal god.

amra
01 December 2008, 03:52 PM
"We live in a world, which has been forced to shrink through the forces of globalization including the unprecedented communications revolution. People of diverse ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds are thrown together to co-exist, at best in uneasy suspicion, or at worst, in outright hostility.

Thought leaders in our contemporary context speak of focusing on our commonalities to promote a message of unity and hope. This onerous mission cannot be left to national governments or international organizations. Individuals and groups have a part to play too!

The Institute for Spiritual Wisdom is just such an international group of individuals. Inspired and motivated by the writings and teachings of Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai, ISW stands for the ideal of human equality, justice and unity. Its work is based on the esoteric philosophy of the holy Qur'an, the final revelation of God.

In our current times, Islam is the most misunderstood of global faiths. The debate around the faith of over a billion Muslims is monopolised by extremists or apologists. ISW's mission is to present and promote a viable alternative, namely the esoteric or batin of the Divine message: “Human beings are created from the Single Soul.”

Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai's over a hundred books deal with the essence of the Qur'an. His prolific prose and poetry, written over five decades, celebrate the unity that underlines our obvious diversity.

ISW welcomes participation in its mission to break down barriers caused by ignorance and to replace them with bridges of knowledge that bring human beings closer to their real essence and through this to each other."

http://www.monoreality.org/

atanu
01 December 2008, 10:52 PM
"We live in a world, which has been forced to shrink through the forces of globalization including the unprecedented communications revolution. People of diverse ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds are thrown together to co-exist, at best in uneasy suspicion, or at worst, in outright hostility.

Thought leaders in our contemporary context speak of focusing on our commonalities to promote a message of unity and hope. This onerous mission cannot be left to national governments or international organizations. Individuals and groups have a part to play too!

The Institute for Spiritual Wisdom is just such an international group of individuals. Inspired and motivated by the writings and teachings of Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai, ISW stands for the ideal of human equality, justice and unity. Its work is based on the esoteric philosophy of the holy Qur'an, the final revelation of God.

In our current times, Islam is the most misunderstood of global faiths. The debate around the faith of over a billion Muslims is monopolised by extremists or apologists. ISW's mission is to present and promote a viable alternative, namely the esoteric or batin of the Divine message: “Human beings are created from the Single Soul.”

Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai's over a hundred books deal with the essence of the Qur'an. His prolific prose and poetry, written over five decades, celebrate the unity that underlines our obvious diversity.

ISW welcomes participation in its mission to break down barriers caused by ignorance and to replace them with bridges of knowledge that bring human beings closer to their real essence and through this to each other."

http://www.monoreality.org/

Namaste Amra,

I see that you are the oldest member of this forum. Or is it a mistake? Nonetheless, I perceive the wisdom and the softness gained through the life.

I greet you with welcome. I also wish to add that it has been my small experience that to live and let live, being full of knowledge of the monoreality may be the happiest stance -- Being in one's own dharma and respecting all diversity as of God's splendour.

We wish to gain by your experience. However, I have a query for the statement shown below from your post.


Its work is based on the esoteric philosophy of the holy Qur'an, the final revelation of God.

Is there difference in the first and the last revelation?
Is not the continous presence of God a revelation for all times?
Is it OK to hate others (to the extent of commiting murder), especially those who follow in the footsteps of the first revelation, with the knowledge that the first or last, the revelation is immortal?Regards

Om

Ali
01 December 2008, 11:28 PM
“I am in love with every church
And mosque
And temple
And any kind of shrine

Because I know it is there
That people say the different names
Of the One God.”

Would you tell your friends
I was a bit strange if I admitted

I am indeed in love with every mind
And heart and body.

O I am sincerely
Plumb crazy
About your every thought and yearning
And limb
Because, my dear,
I know
That it is through these

That you search for Him

By: Great Sufi Master Hafiz (r.a)

amra
02 December 2008, 03:34 AM
Namaste Brother

You will have to ask a learned Muslim for the answers to your questions. I just posted the website to show that Esoteric Islam has similarities to Sanatan Dharma. As has been said the truth is one but the ways to approach it are many. So there are valid ways of approach in esoteric islam and christianity not to mention judaism. Rather than condeming the whole tradition as others have endeveoured to do, it may be better to try to sow the seed of, an unorthodox, esoteric un-literalist interpretation of the Quran. A healthy element of doubt, and the creative thinking which will follow will scare the fanatics

reflections
02 December 2008, 04:23 AM
O Allah! if I worship you for fear of hell
Burn me in hell
If I worship you in hope of paradise
Exclude me from paradise
But if I worship you for your own sake
Grudge me not your everlasting beauty

Rabia - al basra.

Not an Advaitic approach but this is what I call 'Nishkam Bhakti' And the best of the Bhakta is always Nishkam.
Rabia has much in common with Mira bai.

reflections
02 December 2008, 04:34 AM
Wesaal-e-haqq talabi hamneshin naamash baash / Bebin wesaal-e-khodaa dar wesaal-e-naam-e-khodaa

If you search for union with God, be a companion of His Name,
You’ll see that union with God is in union with the Name of God
- Khwaja Moiuddin Chisti

समुझत सरिस नाम अरु नामी। प्रीति परसपर प्रभु अनुगामी।।
नाम रूप दुइ ईस उपाधी। अकथ अनादि सुसामुझि साधी।।
- Ram Charit Manas.

Many similarities in Bhakti and Sufi tradition as well. Great importance or remembering Lord's name: we call it Kirtan, Sufis call it 'Dhikr or Zikr'

MahaHrada
02 December 2008, 05:09 AM
"We live in a world, which has been forced to shrink through the forces of globalization including the unprecedented communications revolution. People of diverse ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds are thrown together to co-exist, at best in uneasy suspicion, or at worst, in outright hostility.

Thought leaders in our contemporary context speak of focusing on our commonalities to promote a message of unity and hope. This onerous mission cannot be left to national governments or international organizations. Individuals and groups have a part to play too!

The Institute for Spiritual Wisdom is just such an international group of individuals. Inspired and motivated by the writings and teachings of Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai, ISW stands for the ideal of human equality, justice and unity. Its work is based on the esoteric philosophy of the holy Qur'an, the final revelation of God.

In our current times, Islam is the most misunderstood of global faiths. The debate around the faith of over a billion Muslims is monopolised by extremists or apologists. ISW's mission is to present and promote a viable alternative, namely the esoteric or batin of the Divine message: “Human beings are created from the Single Soul.”

Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai's over a hundred books deal with the essence of the Qur'an. His prolific prose and poetry, written over five decades, celebrate the unity that underlines our obvious diversity.

ISW welcomes participation in its mission to break down barriers caused by ignorance and to replace them with bridges of knowledge that bring human beings closer to their real essence and through this to each other."

offensive link removed by Mahahradanatha



Could the Moderators please remove this link and maybe ban amra from HDF ,or other appropriate action. This website she recommended, is promoting jihad and martyrdom and recommends joining the Pakistan army to wage religious war (jihad) on india, and describes the rewards of the beliver who dies as a martyr in this war, see this qoute from one of the books recommend in this website.

Quote from the website about the Book "40 Wisdoms of Jihad "of this extremist Allamah Nasir al-Din Nasir Hunzai about his "misunderstood faith" following here:

Sample from Table of Contents
Wisdom 1
Leaders and scholars of all Muslim schools of thought, actively participated in the political and intellectual battle which was fought for the creation of Pakistan. Lives and property were sacrificed for the sort of great jihad that was waged then. Therefore, it is important and a source of pride for us to join Pakistan army to help protect and guard our country and nation.

Wisdom 16
The existence of every whole continures to survive and last only if it remains perfect, complete, unified, intact, undivided and unbrken, and its parts do not disintegrate. Accordingly, although Muslims have divided themselves into sects, nonetheless, a way out is that we should be united like a huge tree which has numerous branches, they are not disconnected. This glory of the tree of Islam is very great.

Wisdom 38
A martyr is killed physically but not spiritually, because the souls of the martyrs of the major and minor jihad are already alive in the fountainhead of the l ight of the Lord of Honour. They receive the intellectual, spiritual and subtle physical bounties. They are extremely pleased with these unparalleled bounties. They are also extremely happy with the way Allah has been kind to their survivors and others because of them.

Amra How can you expect that Hindus tolerate quotes from a website that promotes jihad and martyrdom while serving the Pakistan army, right after the Mumbai atrocities that where instigated by the Pakistan based islamic Terrorist of lashkar group? What is going on in your head? Are you or an orthodox christian group you belong to affiliated with this Organisation? I hardly think it is possibble to overlook that this website contains extremist and inhuman content - it took me 10 seconds browsing and at the first link i already found the praise of religious murder (jihad).


Also on this website infidels are called "followers of the devil" who "slander and harm the souls"
(Introduction to the recognition of Q´aim.) and so on as usual.

amra
02 December 2008, 06:54 AM
Apologies, I came across the site whilst researching the work of nasir-e-kusraw, I never saw the part quoted above and maybe should not have posted a link so hastily without looking through the site and discovering its affiliations.

This raises an interesting point is it correct to reify sufic teachings, from the wider context of orthodox islam?

MahaHrada
02 December 2008, 08:25 AM
Apologies, I came across the site whilst researching the work of nasir-e-kusraw, I never saw the part quoted above and maybe should not have posted a link so hastily without looking through the site and discovering its affiliations.

This raises an interesting point is it correct to reify sufic teachings, from the wider context of orthodox islam?

We do not reify - since a lot of these teaching have been projected into Islam by Gurus of the siddha mata, the siddha mata has also projected their concepts into buddhism since Avadhootha Lineages traditionally assume any outer guise by their own choosing.

But if you mean to ask whether every sufi is more liberal than a mainstream muslim the answer is No not at all, Naqshibandhi for instance especially the turkish can belong to a very nasty type of islamic "fascists".

Siddhas appear like their great Guru Dattatreya who is called to be Bal unmatta Pishacha Veshaya - as one who is in the guise of a child, a mad-man, a devil.

The contact between Islamic mystics and the avadhootha or siddha teachings had an impact liberalising the Islamic religion but this was only like a drop of water on a hot stone and did not penetrate deeply enough into the islamic social and religious structure,to be a lasting relief, the impact of the shaivaite and shakta and kaula siddhas on Buddhism was much more effective and lasting, it liberalised orthodox buddhism by giving rise rise to the Vajrayana and shingon and some chinese schools of the buddhist Tradition. Later Vajrayana receded from the indian mainland and nowadays is mainly practiced in the Himalayan regions and further east and north (Bhutan, Tibet, Mongolia, Nepal and China) and since the diaspora of tibetans it has even spread worldwide.

Of course we have other then indian or sindh schools of Sufism or Islam which draw from other earlier pagan and magical sources and gnostic speculations that where prevalent in other regions.
Then we have Near eastern Sufis for instance in Morocco that practice some kind of shamanic spirit possesion dating back to practices that already have existed when the pyramids were built i guess.

There are all types of sufis some are also extremist and fundamentalists, for example the turks variety of naqshibandhi and yes, nagshibandhi in general.

amra
02 December 2008, 04:48 PM
yes the nakshbandi's persecuted our Guru's, being responsible for Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji's death and tried to islamicise India with AUrangzeb.

Eastern Mind
02 December 2008, 05:27 PM
It would seem to me that the conclusions drawn by mystics, regardless of the premise they started out on, would be similar. I have read short quotes from Australian aboriginals, American natives, Hindu Gurus, Sufis, and Xian monks, that all have a lot in common. Somewhat different words, but all with the same gist... usually having to do with some energy flow flowing through all things that is the same everywhere... and a sense of Oneness.

At work the other day I opened a book by one Sydney Banks, a Canadian living on our (Canadian) west coast. (I'd never heard of him before this.)Having read Gibran's The Prophet a long time ago, I noticed right away the similarity. Either Banks had done some reading (or a lot) and was simply regurgitating with some editting here and there just to sound cool and impress others or he had some mystical insight. I acknowledged to a colleague who felt the same way that I may have to meet the guy in order to 'feel' him better. Aum Namasivaya

MahaHrada
03 December 2008, 08:41 AM
It would seem to me that the conclusions drawn by mystics, regardless of the premise they started out on, would be similar. I have read short quotes from Australian aboriginals, American natives, Hindu Gurus, Sufis, and Xian monks, that all have a lot in common. Somewhat different words, but all with the same gist... usually having to do with some energy flow flowing through all things that is the same everywhere... and a sense of Oneness.

At work the other day I opened a book by one Sydney Banks, a Canadian living on our (Canadian) west coast. (I'd never heard of him before this.)Having read Gibran's The Prophet a long time ago, I noticed right away the similarity. Either Banks had done some reading (or a lot) and was simply regurgitating with some editting here and there just to sound cool and impress others or he had some mystical insight. I acknowledged to a colleague who felt the same way that I may have to meet the guy in order to 'feel' him better. Aum Namasivaya

I think this depends on how much we want or need to generalise, and this need - to abstract or generalise again depends on the context in which we ask the question.

What i mean is a human and a whale share that they are both mammals, but does that mean that it would be a good idea to invite one to my home for dinner?

sm78
03 December 2008, 09:14 AM
We do not reify - since a lot of these teaching have been projected into Islam by Gurus of the siddha mata, the siddha mata has also projected their concepts into buddhism since Avadhootha Lineages traditionally assume any outer guise by their own choosing.


This is really interesting and the impact of the natha pantha in all the religious traditions of this sub-continent is something which is not really properly understood, though is known.

MahaHrada, which are the best pilgrim spots to have a glimse of the natha life which might be still available in India? Maharastra?

MahaHrada
03 December 2008, 10:28 AM
This is really interesting and the impact of the natha pantha in all the religious traditions of this sub-continent is something which is not really properly understood, though is known.

MahaHrada, which are the best pilgrim spots to have a glimse of the natha life which might be still available in India? Maharastra?

Namaskar Singhi
Due to my location far away from India i cannot say much about the current state of Nath panth.

All i know is that my own Guru has been the guest of the Mahant of Amritnath Ashram in Fatehpur sikar in Rajasthan several time already, so i guess it is worth a visit.

See Amritnath Ashram website for contact details:

http://amritnathashram.org/

I guess Maharastra is a good place also since the great Nath saint Jnaneshwar Maharaj lived there and i am shure he left a rich heritage.

When we where discussion Terrorism and i wrote the following
The best remedy for inhuman indoctrination of any kind is endeavour to provide proper education, good housing, enough food.

Thinking of Maharastra I remembered what Jnaneshwar once taught:

Be like the earth accepting all
Quench the thirst of cow and tiger alike
treat all people as equals
as water does

the people and circumstances may change even the guise of a religion but not the message of Nath panth which remains the same.

I like to share with you part of a movie from 1940 with a beautiful marathi song from poetry of the great Maharastrian Nath Guru Jnaneshwar which i found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTCIrKOziE

sunyatisunya
24 April 2009, 01:52 AM
He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward, and He is the Knower of all things. (57:3)

reflections
02 June 2009, 12:44 PM
Namaste all,
Till now I have quoted some random Sufi quotes, I intend to go through 'Quranic Verses' and Hadith (Sayings of Prophet) and will do humble attempt to come up with an Esoteric interpretation.

I would be using Yusuf Ali Quran translation, and refer to Pir Inayat Khan, Sheikh Nazeem for their interpretation of the verses.

Let us start from that Shahada, i.e. the first pillar of Islam:
Its firts line states that 'La ilaha il allah (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=Ays&ei=mWMlStinKtLRjAfW6NXXBw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=La+ilaha+il+allah&spell=1) '. In simple words, it means there is no god but Allah. On first glance, it looks narrow and even limits to grandness of God.

Now let us go through the meaning with the interpretation from Sheikh Nazim:

the ultimate goal is beyond even the intimacy of “I and Thou”, a Unity beyond duality, for He is All in All. That is the meaning of, “There is no God but He”. As long as we cling to the separateness of our physical and spiritual existence, we are far from our goal. Why do we fear death? Because we are afraid of being non-existent; that is why the soul and body, which enable each other to exist in this realm, cling to each other so tenaciously. We may have to pay a high price to remain alive, but yet do we endure.

The Lord is beckoning us to enter that Ocean of Unity while we are yet in this life, to dissolve as sugar dissolves in tea. When the sugar dissolves you can no longer say, “This is sugar and that is tea”.

http://www.sheiknazim2.com/conceptofallah.html

I need not say the interpretation is very close with Advaita that nothing but the Brahman exists. "Brahma Satya, Jagat Mithya"

Jai Shri Krishna

Nondogmatic Nondualist
08 July 2009, 01:59 PM
I would say that, within Sufism, there are multiple tendencies, just as there are within Hinduism. Many Sufi practices and teachings are very much akin to Bhakti, particularly as many Sufi writers emphasized love and often used love between humans as a metaphor for love of God.

In addition, many Sufis speak of the Wahdat al-Wajud, the Unity of Being, which means that there is no true existence except the Ultimate Truth (God). Thus, all things only exist within God. This is illustrated in the Sufi interpretation of 'La ilaha il allah" (No God but God). The "No God" is the negation of all that is not The One, and "But God" is the affirmation of the One Reality. Is this not reminiscent of the Upanishads, which declare that all is Brahman? The Advaita position that only Brahman truly exists is echoed by all the Sufis who say that only God exists (thus, in Sufism, God is often seen in a similar way to the way that Advaita sees Brahman).

In one famous case, the Sufi teacher Mansur al-Hallaj famously declared "I am The Truth" (which in Islam carries the connotation of "I am God"), and was arrested, tried, and imprisoned for 11 years before being executed for heresy. This illustrates the point that, just as with Christian mystics, realization of unity with God often took Sufis into conflict with established religious authorities because they seemed to be contradicting official religious dogma. One Sufi writer later remarked "What should he have said, 'I am Falsehood'?"

The great Sufi poet and mystic Rumi addressed the significance of Hallaj's statement three centuries later:


People imagine that it is a presumptive claim, whereas it is really a presumptive claim to say "I am the slave of God"; and "I am God" is an expression of great humility. The man who says "I am the slave of God" affirms two existences, his own and God's, but he that says "I am God" has made himself non-existent and has given himself up and says "I am God," that is, "I am naught, He is all; there is no being but God's." This is the extreme of humility and self-abasement.

Thus, many Sufis are non-dualists because they deny the existence of two beings, affirming only God's existence. Many Sufis speak of this in terms of realizing one's nothingness or "naughting oneself" before God, the One Reality.

Ibn 'Arabi, one of the greatest of Sufi mystics, wrote that 'The self is an ocean without a shore. There is no end to the contemplation of it in this world or the next'.

Bayazid Bastami (another great Sufi master), when asked how Islam viewed other religions, replied that "All are vehicles and a path to God's Divine Presence."

I have great respect for Sufism, and have felt myself drawn to the writings of Sufis, including their beautiful poetry. The only reason I would not become a Sufi is that many Sufi orders require conversion to Islam, and I am very much averse to any kind of dogma. However, some Sufi orders do not require conversion, so there would be no assumption of dogma in that case.

atanu
09 July 2009, 08:32 AM
Rig Veda

10.191.01 Agni, showerer (of benefits), you who are the lord, you verily combine with all creatures, you are kindled upon the footmark of il.a_ (the altar, Earth, Goddess, Durga); bring unto us riches.

10.191.02 Meet together, talk together, let your minds apprehend alike; in like manner as the ancient gods concurring accepted their portion of the sacrifice.

10.191.03 Common be the prayer of these (assembled worshippers), common be the acquisition, common the purpose, associated be the desire. I repeat for you a common prayer, I offer for you with a common oblation.

10.191.04 Common, (worshipppers), be your intention; common be (the wishes of) your hearts; common be your thoughts, so that there may be thorough union among you.

Om

Spiritualseeker
09 July 2009, 06:03 PM
Namaste,

Most of the Sufi believers in wahdat al wujud (or experiencers of this truth) are usually in many small villages not really known to the muslim world entirely. Other movements are close like the Naqshbandi Haqqani which has worldwide followers but as far as professing wahdat al wujud they sometimes are hesitant due to the Salafis and other sects that would consider them heretics. I was initiated into the Shadhili tariqa under Shaykh Nuh Ha mim Keller when I was muslim. The path helped me but I soon felt that God was just my buddha nature (perhaps it could be said that I was feeling that maybe God is not seperate from us like in hinduism). But even in the Shadhili tariqa taught by Shaykh Nuh keller wahdat al wujud as far as truely professing it would still be a heresy since Shaykh nuh keller and many shadhilis follow the Ashari School of thought which see that view of wahdat al wujud as deviant.

But I do have to say there is many similarities concerning the small sufi groups and the older sufi groups through history. They experienced oneness with God(if there is a God or just emptiness or oneness of being).

-juan